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Today on The Big Questions: Extremist views that may also | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
And abortion - should it be completely decriminalised? | :00:07. | :00:25. | |
Today we're live from Wychwood School in Oxford. | :00:26. | :00:32. | |
Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions. | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
In Wednesday's Queen's Speech, the government promised another raft | :00:36. | :00:43. | |
of legislation to "prevent radicalisation, tackle | :00:44. | :00:44. | |
extremism in all its forms, and promote community integration." | :00:45. | :00:53. | |
So far, the government's PREVENT strategy has been most often accused | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
of targeting Muslims and effectively discriminating against | :00:57. | :00:58. | |
Now they're planning to intervene when local councils | :00:59. | :01:06. | |
aren't doing enough to counter extremism; to close unregulated | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
Madrassa and religious schools; and bring in ASBO style banning | :01:10. | :01:11. | |
orders for those described as "key extremist influencers". | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
So the list of those who could now be targeted may lengthen from people | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
who actually do bad things to people who merely think bad things. | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
And the government's definition of "peddling hatred" could be | :01:21. | :01:22. | |
someone else's deeply held religious belief. | :01:23. | :01:24. | |
Is countering extremism compatible with freedom of religion? | :01:25. | :01:38. | |
Douglas Murray, associate director of the Henry Jackson Society, aren't | :01:39. | :01:46. | |
you a keen extremist influence? You have been so critical of Islam, you | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
are a neo-con hate preacher, aren't you, some of the things you have | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
said? I suppose some very extreme people might claim it, I would be | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
surprised if you could hold it up. I can answer the question we started | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
with... You have said things in the past, conditions for Muslims in | :02:08. | :02:13. | |
Europe must be made harder. I have always been of a view that it is | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
unwise to have immigration at the rate it has happened in recent | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
years. And I think it is a very unwise thing to do what Chancellor | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
Merkel has done in the last year, to have immigration effectively at such | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
a speed that you can't have an integrated society. That is what we | :02:31. | :02:37. | |
are seeing, I would argue, the impact of across Europe at the | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
moment. It is a very great concern. What the government is trying to do | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
elsewhere is to make up, to catch up with the effects of its immigration | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
policy. Because if you have, as Germany has now, an extra 2% of your | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
population coming into the country every year, I would argue you don't | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
have a hope of having a cohesive society. It is that I can assure you | :03:02. | :03:12. | |
that if any other minority groups within a society had a constant | :03:13. | :03:19. | |
record of producing a minority within it, a minority that is | :03:20. | :03:27. | |
significant, people who blow up Chu, buses, or fly planes into the twin | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
towers, or as happened three years ago today, murder a soldier on the | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
streets of London, decapitate him in broad daylight for being a member of | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
the British Army, I would say you would say that about any other | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
group. You would be deeply concerned about any group in society that had | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
that, even as it is a very distinct minority. Let me just remind you of | :03:49. | :03:51. | |
one of the fact while you have got me onto it. A lot of other | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
minorities I think rightfully are concerned about this. As a gay man, | :03:57. | :04:03. | |
it doesn't enormously Glesney that as a poll fronted by Trevor Phillips | :04:04. | :04:06. | |
the other week showed the majority of Muslims in the UK want | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
homosexuality to be made illegal. Not on board with gay marriage, not | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
entirely hot with civil partnerships, but they want | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
homosexuality to be made illegal. So I think this raises all sorts of | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
questions and I think they are very legitimate questions to be raised, | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
and in my view they are not raised often enough. Wider you believe that | :04:28. | :04:35. | |
these measures could well stymie and circumscribed a religious belief, | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
and make people wary of expressing those sincerely held religious | :04:42. | :04:52. | |
beliefs? Because the Prevent campaign is built on fear. It is a | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
contract that has been manufactured by the state. We know it when we see | :04:58. | :05:05. | |
it, in those atrocities. As you say you know it when we see it, that | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
usually implies a racialised implantation of that construct. When | :05:12. | :05:17. | |
people like Douglas Murray, and you don't have to be an extremist to | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
believe that Douglas Murray holds very strong views, would not | :05:22. | :05:24. | |
necessarily think he is an extremist, whereas we are one step | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
away now from front-line workers at universities and schools getting the | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
ruler out and measuring the beard of theirs June to see if they are | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
terrorists or radicals. More or less, because the Prevent strategy, | :05:37. | :05:47. | |
they view the taking up of the headscarf or the growing of the | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
beard or conversion to Islam for example as being the indicators that | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
should be used by members of civil society to decide who is a future | :05:57. | :06:06. | |
terrorist. Where does it state that? These are the indicators that are | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
included in the Association of Chief Police Officers. If you let me | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
finish and listen, all I am saying is if you have a look at the | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
Association of Chief Police Officers channel and guided documentation, it | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
clearly states that conversion to Islam is an indicator. I have read | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
the Prevent strategy and nowhere does it say what you have said. Let | :06:29. | :06:35. | |
him finish. You will have another chance. I have read the Prevent | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
strategy, and it does not talk about what you are saying. Now you are not | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
letting me finish. It is ironic you spoke about fear, but this is the | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
mongering, and this is one of the biggest problems we have. | :06:54. | :06:56. | |
Individuals like yourself who have had a bad experience, no doubt, but | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
my problem with your position is not the practical implications of | :07:01. | :07:06. | |
Prevent, there are areas that need to be revisited and we need to work | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
better than what we have, but your argument against the Prevent | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
strategy is in principle, and that is a problem. Because what that | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
applies is extremism denial, and that is a big problem. I am not | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
denying anything, define the terms you are trying to counter. You can't | :07:27. | :07:33. | |
define it. What we should not be fearful of is not the Prevent | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
strategy, but individuals who are becoming radicalised and going | :07:38. | :07:39. | |
across the border and joining an extremist group. Adam Deen, one of | :07:40. | :07:47. | |
the Prevent definitions of extremism is vocal and active opposition to | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
British values. Vocal opposition, does that not worry you? Firstly, in | :07:52. | :08:00. | |
terms of the new bill looking to be introduced, I am dead against that, | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
the idea of banning orders, banning hate preachers come I think that is | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
completely the wrong way to go about things. In taking on our enemies, in | :08:08. | :08:13. | |
refusing our enemies, we should not become or -- -- surely that is what | :08:14. | :08:23. | |
you are doing, the moment you start to use the law against the opinions | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
you amusing from a free society into an unfree society. Since the first | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
Queen Victoria said I do not wish to make windows into men's souls. You | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
can be punished for you do, not for what you think or what you say, | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
unless it is incitement to crime. As long as you maintain that boundary, | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
you are a free country. The problem with this bill, and with Mr Cameron | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
ever since his speech in the United Nations, is that he doesn't | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
understand this distinction, doesn't even understand it is important, and | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
continues to press away with this nonsense. I am in the eyes of many | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
people and chemist, simply by holding their views by and large my | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
parents generation upheld, those views have become extreme. It is | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
simply a term to define your opponents as people who need to be | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
restricted and quite possibly expunged and imprisoned. APPLAUSE | :09:12. | :09:20. | |
There is the thing about Western imperialism and this notion of | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
imperialism, but it is absurd because the very notion of extremism | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
exists within the Islamic tradition. For centuries, the extremist | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
organisations have reared their ugly heads, and scholars throughout the | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
century have debated one another on extremism, so it is not something | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
that is outside of Islam. It exists within the Muslim community. Let me | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
through that to Mohammed Khaliel. The Crusaders taking it back a year | :09:47. | :09:52. | |
ago, we did the debate on Lee Rigby, if somebody is arguing for the | :09:53. | :09:59. | |
strict enforcement of sharia law, or gender discrimination, teaching kids | :10:00. | :10:06. | |
gays are condemned to hell, adulterers stoned, aren't those | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
extremist values, yes or no? Firstly you just mentioned Prevent, I am the | :10:12. | :10:21. | |
Cowan prevent lead, if you think a three-year-old can be criminalised | :10:22. | :10:24. | |
and searched at every port when they grow, you need to look at this | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
policy again. Number two, it is a policy classed as toxic. Speak to | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
the community and you will see it is the most toxic brand. Mohammed, let | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
me try again if I can. Arguing for the strict involvement of sharia | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
law, the caliphate is an ideal society, gays are going to hell, | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
adulterers being stoned. Are they extremist values? These are not | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
views by people held in this country. We have people preaching a | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
lot of hatred and poison against Muslims, give me one case, even in | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
Muslim countries, where they practice sharia law, where they go | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
as a routine, most Muslim countries do not do the death penalty, they do | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
not do the stoning, all of these things. This is most Muslim | :11:13. | :11:15. | |
countries that are supposed to run under sharia law. It shouldn't be | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
necessary to have to shoot this down, but let me do it. Sunni, Shia, | :11:22. | :11:36. | |
the most important distinctions, ahead and crucify people. The Sydney | :11:37. | :11:44. | |
house of Saudi Arabia did not want this Mantella. Let's -- the Sunni. | :11:45. | :11:56. | |
The most important Shia country is Iran, you will be hanged from a | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
crane if you are an adulterer, so please let us not have this stupid | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
cover because we are cleverer than we think you are. Everyone on this | :12:05. | :12:07. | |
country can look at the internet and read articles. You cannot cover that | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
over, it is fact, it is what is going on, it is what Isis is | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
currently tried to do in the territories it controls. It doesn't | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
come from nowhere. A great deal would be improved in this country if | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
people like you came into studios like this and admitted that there is | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
a problem, and admitted that he wanted to join in finding a solution | :12:29. | :12:31. | |
to that problem, instead of trying to pretend that the problem doesn't | :12:32. | :12:38. | |
exist. APPLAUSE Are those views very conservative | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
orthodox views, please listen to the question. What about conservative | :12:43. | :12:52. | |
religious views, are you worried that there is a situation where | :12:53. | :13:00. | |
people will be afraid to hold those conservative orthodox views? Yes, | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
because they are applicable to many other religious communities, and | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
what the event strategy does is largely marginalises and restricts | :13:13. | :13:14. | |
these discussions and debates like they are only held within the Muslim | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
community. That is discrimination, and it is very important to note | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
that the counter extremism bill Adam is talking about and is in favour | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
because it has essentially funded his organisation he is representing | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
today, Adam, if you let me finish, 93% of your funding in 2009-10 came | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
from the Home Office and the Foreign Office, so the fact you are here as | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
an echo chamber the government policy will not surprise anyone. If | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
you let me finish now, it is very important for your viewers and | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
listeners to recognise the evidence that this policy is based upon | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
Sibley does not stack up. It is nonscientific, because there is no | :13:56. | :14:01. | |
empirical evidence that says an extreme form of Islamic ideology is | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
the cause of terrorism. Look at the work of Martha Crenshaw, all of | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
these other studies that have been done on it, and they are pulling | :14:11. | :14:12. | |
faces now because they can't come back at this. Wait a minute, Peter, | :14:13. | :14:25. | |
in a second. You say they can't come back, I am going to let them. Then | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
you mentioned as well other religions, and I will come to you, | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
Linda, on this, because you may feel some of your views would be | :14:33. | :14:40. | |
marginalised and found upon. Firstly, Prevent is not about | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
dealing with social conservatism, it is about dealing with extremism that | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
could potentially lead to violence. When I train teachers on Cowan | :14:51. | :14:53. | |
prevent, I make it very clear that we should not conflict extremism | :14:54. | :14:54. | |
with social conservatism. In practice it happens. Hold on a | :14:55. | :15:04. | |
minute. What is extremism? It is your brand of extremism. In terms of | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
there is no empirical evidence, this is just garbage. Yes, because | :15:11. | :15:18. | |
evidence is garbage, according to the Quilliam Foundation. Let me try | :15:19. | :15:25. | |
again. This link, it is garbage. This is an extreme red herring. You | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
had about 90 seconds. Afford him the courtesy of giving him some time as | :15:32. | :15:38. | |
well. When an Isis soldier beheads one of its captives and shouts | :15:39. | :15:45. | |
"Allahu Akbar", why should we not doubt that that person is motivated | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
by a pernicious reading of Islam? What I am saying... This is a really | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
u've raised. # A study by the centre of religion | :15:57. | :16:05. | |
and geopolitics, 100 jihadis were surveyed and over 50% of them had | :16:06. | :16:12. | |
training before their extremism. So it is garbage... | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
ALL TALK AT ONCE What about orthodox conservative | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
Christians. You raised this point, Rizwan, what about people of your | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
ilk who are worried about this legislation because what you want to | :16:26. | :16:28. | |
say and believe may be curtailed. Yes, Welsh very worried. What | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
aspects of your faith are you worried that people will point at | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
and say, that is extreme in At the moment various points of the Bible | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
where people are increasingly not allowed to quote from the Bible. It | :16:43. | :16:49. | |
is an obvious one, people who hold deeply held religious views about | :16:50. | :16:55. | |
human sexuality will quote something from Leviticus or whatever. David | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
Cameron said explicitly that these counter extremism measures are going | :17:01. | :17:09. | |
to be used to combat violent and non-violent expressions of | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
extremism. Just enlighten any viewers who might not know what | :17:14. | :17:20. | |
Leviticus says. There are various verses that say that it is a sin for | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
a man to lie with a man. What does it say the punishment should be? | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
Again, the various punishments, I'm trying to remember in Leviticus. Is | :17:29. | :17:34. | |
it stoning? I would have to check that, Nicky, because I'm not | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
entirely sure. Douglas Murray? Leviticus does have such threats in | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
it. It is my view that, and I think Adam Deen said the same thing, | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
nobody should be criminalised or prosecuted for holding what is a | :17:50. | :17:52. | |
conservative religious opinion. People can have that opinion. It is | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
another thing if you then believe as a result of your religious opinion | :17:58. | :18:04. | |
someone should be prosecuted. If an Anglican or somebody saying they | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
were speaking in the name of Anglican Christianity, today in the | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
street beheaded somebody many the name of the Christian God and we | :18:12. | :18:14. | |
came on this programme a week from now, do you think there would be a | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
single Anglican Christian in the country who would not say, it's | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
disgusting, it's appalling, we abhor this? But do you think there would | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
be anybody like the line-up of people here saying how dare you talk | :18:31. | :18:38. | |
about our religion, how dare you talk about Anglicanism. These two | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
people epitomise the problem. Oh, my God! Lynda can respond. You said | :18:45. | :18:51. | |
it's racism is it? Let's address that in a second. Reverend Lynda | :18:52. | :18:53. | |
Rose... ALL TALK AT ONCE | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
Everybody be quiet! Everybody be quiet. The Reverend Lynda rose you | :18:59. | :19:04. | |
want to come back on that point and I would love you to do so. Thank | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
you. Christians, we hold deeply held religious views but we don't don | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
suicide vests and go down Oxford Street bombing people. It's the same | :19:16. | :19:21. | |
with the Jewish community. We don't have vigilante groups in Golders | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
Green patrolling the streets to see if anybody is not wearing the | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
skullcap or whatever. But Christians are not being denied the right to... | :19:32. | :19:38. | |
Rizwan, which country is the best in the world to be a Muslim? I am not | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
denying the fact that the UK is probably one of the best countries, | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
I was born and raised here. All I'm saying is if you deny a group of | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
people the chance to show their identity around Islam, you are | :19:53. | :19:55. | |
saying that you can be a citizen but you cannot be a citizen who chooses | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
to express their identity around Islam. I do not engage with racists, | :20:01. | :20:07. | |
Douglas... Wait, everybody! Wait everybody! After we have first | :20:08. | :20:15. | |
spoken to Rabia, we are going to go to the audience. I'm sorry I haven't | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
been to you so far. That's fine. Are you generally supportive of this | :20:23. | :20:25. | |
legislation? I am. As a Muslim woman? I do support this legislation | :20:26. | :20:32. | |
as a Muslim woman. I think Prevent is centred around preventing and | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
challenging extremist views. It does not curtail debate. It is not about | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
infringing on the freedom to have religious expression or to centre | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
your identity around your religion. It draws a line to say that if you | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
have an opinion which makes somebody else feel unsafe, we can challenge | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
you on it. But if it is your opinion that young people of different sexes | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
should not mix, surely as Liberals we should be fighting for people to | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
be able to express those religious views? Authorities what they | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
believe, from the rooftops Absolutely, and they can express it. | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
So why are people appointing orthodox Muslims, and Reverend Lynda | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
Rose says maybe strict orthodox Christians, saying there is | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
something wrong with what you think, it doesn't fit with British society | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
and people are feeling marginalised. I think the British Government has a | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
responsibility to protect people's freedom to express their religious | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
views, but it also has a responsibility to protect British | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
lives. And that's what we need to focus on. I'm sorry, this policy | :21:42. | :21:48. | |
which Douglas and Adam are not interested in shows this policy | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
increases the risk of terrorism. I don't talk to racists. Just be | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
quiet. By way of going to the audience, Tim Cross, Peter I will be | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
back to you, but I did say I would go to the audience first. Tim Kos, I | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
Taw you wanted to come in. We all carry baggage on this. If I try and | :22:09. | :22:15. | |
lay out where I come from, I was a bomb disposal operator in Northern | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
Ireland in the 19 0s. I learned there was a small hard core of | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
brutal killers a who will blow themselves up. They did not do that | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
in Northern Ireland. That number was a few hundred. Around them are are a | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
few thousands in Northern Ireland prepared to fund them, give them | :22:35. | :22:37. | |
shelter and hide their weapons. Around that circle was a big circle, | :22:38. | :22:44. | |
probably 100,000 strong, who would never have hurt anybody, never have | :22:45. | :22:51. | |
blown anybody up or harboured up but were quite sympathetic to the island | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
of Northern Ireland. In pure nones terms the a lot of people are | :22:57. | :23:04. | |
blowing themselves up and killing people, an inner circle funding and | :23:05. | :23:11. | |
so on, and a broad circle sympathetic to these ideas and a | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
caliphate. Is this the way to win the battle of ideas? What worries | :23:16. | :23:18. | |
me, we talk about British values. The point about what is extremism is | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
a fair point. We need to be much more positive about this. What is it | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
about the nation, our nation, that means these values that are held by | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
that hard core and inner circle are not just acceptable? We collectively | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
need to have that debate and try and get that clearer. Thank you Tim. I | :23:36. | :23:43. | |
would like to say that freedom of religion I think is a great thing | :23:44. | :23:50. | |
achieved... Freedom of conscience. Freedom of conscience. Had it | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
shouldn't be manipulated by those religions that they don't allow | :23:56. | :23:58. | |
criticism within their own religion. For example in Christianity, if you | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
criticise Jesus or anything in the Bible, nobody is going to bomb you | :24:04. | :24:10. | |
or threaten you, but in Islam, nobody can talk about the prophet of | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
Islam. It is not allowed by Islamic teaching. This causes extremism. | :24:16. | :24:24. | |
Morning to you. Yeah, you. Me? Yes! Sorry. Just a quick point and | :24:25. | :24:31. | |
question. I've done the Prevent training and as part of a school | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
training and it was quite a positive experience in the sense that it was | :24:37. | :24:39. | |
about protecting young people. It made it very clear, the trainers, it | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
wasn't looking at just Muslims. They made that clear. It is an important | :24:45. | :24:50. | |
distinction to make. It is about protecting young people in general. | :24:51. | :24:53. | |
It is important not to bracket people. One of the questions I had | :24:54. | :24:59. | |
to the gentleman here, it was saying that Britain is, or England, is | :25:00. | :25:07. | |
quite a good place to be a Muslim. My understanding is that one of my | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
really close friends is a Muslim, it is not the ideas that are very kind | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
of peaceful and that are challenged. It is the ideas that can seem to | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
cause people to be violent and it's those ideas that I think are rightly | :25:22. | :25:28. | |
challenged rather than just being a Muslim isn't the issue. It's the | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
actions. Peter, I promised to come back to you, and Kate. First of all | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
there's a points about legislation that people really have to remember. | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
Once it's passed it's passed. The existing Government, the people who | :25:41. | :25:43. | |
are speaking out for this now, may say it won't be used for this reason | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
or that reason. That's no guarantee. Once you've passed legislation of | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
this kind, some future Government may well used it. Once you have the | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
idea of extremism on the statute book, it is usable against anybody. | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
A factual point that people need to consider. If you look at nearly | :26:01. | :26:03. | |
every single terrorist outrage in the western world, it has not been | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
undertaken by people who've been enthusiastic supporters of the | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
Muslim religion. They have mostly been petty criminals leading lives | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
of drinking, drug taking, and low-level crime. You can go through | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
the whole list over and over again. These are not the sort of people you | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
are classifying as extremists. If we are really worried about these | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
people, from the killers of Lee Rigby, to the Charlie Hebdo outrage, | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
they all have criminal records for drug abuse and petty crime, or they | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
have friends who will recount that this is the sort of things theyna | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
they do. These are the people, if we are seriously trying to stamp out | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
this crime, that's where we ought to be looking. Ailient ating the | :26:49. | :26:56. | |
psychologically homeless. Ludicrous attempts to influence thought are | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
not justified as a terrorist measure against violence. | :27:01. | :27:03. | |
APPLAUSE APPLAUSE. We have to answer this question, is there a link | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
between religion and extremism, or violent behaviour or whatever. | :27:10. | :27:12. | |
Clearly extreme behaviour needs an extreme reason. The promise of | :27:13. | :27:19. | |
eternal life/fiery pits of hell is one of the reasons coming up we are | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
going to talk about abortion later in the show and in the US there are | :27:25. | :27:33. | |
Christian extremists who go around killing abortionists. There are | :27:34. | :27:40. | |
examples of people being extreme in different religions. The Government | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
is also worried about losing votes among ordinary religious people, so | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
they end up with this strategy that says you are allowed to have an | :27:48. | :27:53. | |
imaginary friend so long as he only says nice things. There's a whole | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
trek trip of people who want to go out and kill people, who want to say | :27:59. | :28:01. | |
horrible things about gay people, who want to force people to cover up | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
and Vale themselves. Right the way through to people who've nasty | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
attitudes to having sex our marriage and so on. These are attitudes we | :28:12. | :28:17. | |
should tolerate but challenge. The Government should step away from the | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
whole issue of religion. We know where m the whole issue of religion. | :28:22. | :28:24. | |
We know where these problems arise from - an inequal segregated | :28:25. | :28:26. | |
society. While we've got a Government that continues to fund | :28:27. | :28:29. | |
faith schools and disintegration of our society, we are not going to | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
challenge these issues. APPLAUSE. I want to get this these | :28:34. | :28:40. | |
definitions of extremism and aligned with that our ideas of British | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
values. One of the Prevent definitions of extremism, vogual or | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
active opposition to British values. One is calling for the death of a | :28:50. | :28:52. | |
member of the Armed Forces. If somebody were to call for the death | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
of a member of the Armed Forces, is that a definition of extremism? I | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
don't think it is that focussed. I think it is opposition to the | :29:02. | :29:04. | |
involved of the Armed Forces. Calling for the death of a member of | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
the Armed Forces, is that extremism? The reality of the matter is that | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
the laws that govern international conflict are not those relative to | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
the UK. I don't know the infrastructure of international law | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
and civil war in this... ALL TALK AT ONCE | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
Nicky, one thing is important. Peter raised some excellent points. You | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
can keep claiming that ideology and religion is the cause of this issue | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
but as Peter articulately noted, all the cases we have show this is a | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
political phenomenon. In fact even MI5's internal research on the issue | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
of political violence and terrorism showcases that religion acts as a | :29:49. | :29:51. | |
balance work defence terrorism and political violence. So this idea | :29:52. | :29:57. | |
that it is this overzealous irrational ideology driving | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
terrorism is a complete red herring and dissen Jennous. Policies | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
introduced now by the Government in the name of countering political | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
Islamic violence are already being allied to Muslim communities. Police | :30:12. | :30:18. | |
have been surveying Caroline Lucas and the Green Party. And left-wing | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
dissidents and activists. I am not the world's greatest fan of | :30:23. | :30:32. | |
the Prevent strategy, I think it is an attempt by the government to deal | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
with a pretty insoluble problem. That is fairly pessimistic. If you | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
have a choice of whether you believe you should follow David Cameron or | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
Allah, a lot of Muslims will follow Allah, funnily enough. That is | :30:48. | :30:53. | |
because the world is split into good and bad, isn't it? CHUCKLING | :30:54. | :31:00. | |
If you would just allow me to finish one sentence, you might learn | :31:01. | :31:07. | |
something. Don't patronise me! The interesting thing is that our | :31:08. | :31:10. | |
government in Britain is trying to do as a result of the mass | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
immigration in recent decades is to try to build a cohesive society. The | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
interesting thing about this is that this government as with the previous | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
doesn't particularly have the confidence to say British, British | :31:24. | :31:26. | |
values, British institutions, so what are we doing? We are trying to | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
make it liberal values, that Britain will be about liberal values, about | :31:31. | :31:36. | |
gay marriage, all sorts of other things they have penned this on. I | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
am by the way, think this is a big mistake, because it is all very well | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
saying we will make people liberals, but that does not mean you make them | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
British or with any other sense of identity. The interesting thing is | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
that because the British government has decided effectively the best we | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
can do is to make people vaguely liberal, then it means that the | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
qualifications for extremism, as it were, are exactly effectively | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
conservative ideas, and that is why the Islam thing keeps posing such an | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
issue. Because in terms of social liberalism, Islam is the slowest kid | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
in the class, and we are all speaking at the level of the slowest | :32:16. | :32:18. | |
kid in the class and that is a problem we are not going to get over | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
for a long time to come. Mohammed. We are coming to the end of this | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
section, and Lynda you will have a plentiful contribution in our next | :32:28. | :32:30. | |
debate. I have a stopwatch in my ear. Mohammed. Firstly, just to | :32:31. | :32:36. | |
address the British values, we went through this, people prefer | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
universal values as opposed to British values. That incorporates | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
more than that, a respect for every human being. Rendition, torture, all | :32:48. | :32:54. | |
of that. I thought it was going to be a nice | :32:55. | :33:05. | |
last wise word from Mohammed Khaliel. All of a sudden, mayhem and | :33:06. | :33:12. | |
bedlam! Mohammed Khaliel, the last word. Let me put it at the last | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
word, if everything was true as these right-wingers claim it is, why | :33:18. | :33:26. | |
is is lamb the fastest-growing religion in the Western world? That | :33:27. | :33:32. | |
says it all. It converts by the sword! That is the end of it. | :33:33. | :33:34. | |
You too can join in both this morning's debates by logging | :33:35. | :33:37. | |
on to bbc.co.uk/the big questions then following the link | :33:38. | :33:39. | |
Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq. | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
Tell us what you think about our next Big Question too: | :33:45. | :33:47. | |
Next Sunday we're back from Wychwood School in Oxford | :33:48. | :33:50. | |
with a special debate asking just one Big Question: | :33:51. | :33:52. | |
And, if you'd like to be in the audience at a future show, | :33:53. | :33:59. | |
We're in Uxbridge in northwest London on June 5th for our usual | :34:00. | :34:05. | |
live morning programme, and in the afternoon | :34:06. | :34:07. | |
we're recording the last programme of this series, | :34:08. | :34:09. | |
a special, asking a very Big Question indeed: Are we facing | :34:10. | :34:11. | |
The We Trust Women Campaign has been launched by the British | :34:12. | :34:28. | |
Pregnancy Advisory Service, who provide abortions | :34:29. | :34:29. | |
They are calling for abortions to be decriminalised so no woman | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
could be legally punished for inducing an abortion, | :34:34. | :34:35. | |
Abortions would no longer require two doctors' signatures. | :34:36. | :34:41. | |
Chemical abortions could take place in a woman's home, and abortion | :34:42. | :34:44. | |
would be available at any stage of a pregnancy. | :34:45. | :34:46. | |
The chief executive of the Royal College of Midwives | :34:47. | :34:49. | |
has pledged her support but without consulting her members, | :34:50. | :34:50. | |
many of whom are up in arms about the idea. | :34:51. | :34:58. | |
Proponents argue that decriminalisation has worked | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
in Canada and in Australian states without increasing the number | :35:03. | :35:05. | |
of abortions but rather enabling more of them to take place | :35:06. | :35:08. | |
It would mean treating abortion like any other medical procedure - | :35:09. | :35:16. | |
a matter for the woman and her medical advisers, | :35:17. | :35:18. | |
be they doctors, midwives or nurses, to discuss what is in her | :35:19. | :35:21. | |
So, should abortion be decriminalised? | :35:22. | :35:30. | |
Kate come on why the change, what is wrong with the current laws, the | :35:31. | :35:37. | |
Czechs, the balances, up to 24 weeks? Why do you think it needs to | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
change? The current law is pretty awful. Since 1967, women have been | :35:43. | :35:46. | |
making do with it, but the current situation in the UK is that abortion | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
was criminalised, something like 150 years ago, offences against the | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
Person act, which also criminalised homosexuality and lots of other | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
things. Then, in 67, we made a new abortion law which essentially | :36:03. | :36:05. | |
provided some exemptions to that. Exemptions were given, provided that | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
you have two Doctors's signatures, provided that it is before 24 weeks | :36:11. | :36:17. | |
of the pregnancy. All of those were put in as exceptions, which means | :36:18. | :36:20. | |
that if you fail to get a second doctor's signature on your abortion | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
procurement form you can technically be criminalised, and of course the | :36:26. | :36:28. | |
67 act did not cover Northern Ireland. So women who want an | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
abortion, they know what they want and they have found a way through | :36:33. | :36:35. | |
the legislation to get what they want. But what we are seeing as ever | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
is that every week we have about 40 women a week, were from Northern | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
Ireland to other parts of the UK to access an abortion, and every year a | :36:44. | :36:46. | |
very small number of women who for whatever reason don't fit the | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
criteria laid out, or example they are a tiny bit more than 24 weeks | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
pregnant, end up going to Canada or Holland, and getting the service | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
there. We look at one of these cases, are these women who have just | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
flippantly not thought about what is going on until the last minute, no. | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
We see some really difficult stories, we see very young women who | :37:07. | :37:08. | |
did not even realise they could get pregnant at the time the abuse took | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
place, and I think either criminalised those women or force | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
them on a plane to Canada is cruel and daft. This might be the most | :37:16. | :37:18. | |
radical thing anyone has ever said on your show, but I think women are | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
intelligent, rational human beings, and that when they need medical | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
treatment they should go to a doctor and havoc on the their doctor, and | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
it is nobody 's's business. APPLAUSE Because I did not get to you at the | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
end of the last debate, Lynda, I will come to you now. Do you really | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
believe that people are casual about abortion? No, I don't think that,... | :37:43. | :37:52. | |
Do you think people are treating it as contraception? Yes, I do. The | :37:53. | :38:00. | |
abortion laws in this country have never been about criminalising | :38:01. | :38:02. | |
women, they have been about defending the right of the unborn | :38:03. | :38:08. | |
child. APPLAUSE The reality these days is that when | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
a woman goes to a doctor, whatever age, the first question, and this is | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
my experience too, so I know this is right, the first question is do you | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
want this baby? And if they say no, they get referred for an abortion. | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
This thing about having two signatures is nonsense, because we | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
have all come across the stories now that our established fact where they | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
keep these signed forms. Because even doctors know this legislation | :38:39. | :38:41. | |
is a complete waste of everybody's time. But why would you want to | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
extend? There was an opinion poll taken in 2012, 2% of women asked | :38:47. | :38:56. | |
said yes, we want folders -- file decriminalisation. 59% of women said | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
actually, you know what, we want a reduction in the time-limit for an | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
abortion, because now routinely babies are surviving from 22 weeks, | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
some as early as 20 weeks. There is no evidence of that either. Why are | :39:11. | :39:16. | |
we still aborting unborn children at 24 weeks when in the next room | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
doctors are fighting... We have this debate in Parliament a couple of | :39:21. | :39:27. | |
years ago. What about this notion that it is being used as a form of | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
contraception? I come to it from the point where I routinely help women | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
who live in Northern Ireland and Ireland where they can't get | :39:37. | :39:39. | |
abortions at all come to England, so I am dealing with the actual effects | :39:40. | :39:46. | |
of criminalising abortion, where they are literally drinking bleach | :39:47. | :39:48. | |
if they don't have the money to come over. This idea of using abortion as | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
contraception, that is not great, but as a parent I have to say being | :39:53. | :39:57. | |
a parent is a really giant, big job and it shouldn't be forced upon | :39:58. | :40:00. | |
anybody who doesn't want it, OK? APPLAUSE | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
I can tell you every kind of birth control you can be on you can still | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
get pregnant, and even if you were "Careless", and had sex without | :40:11. | :40:13. | |
birth control or the condom broke or whatever, to me that should not | :40:14. | :40:16. | |
result in the punishment of having to care for a live human. It is not | :40:17. | :40:25. | |
a punishment! Once a child is conceived, actually you bear | :40:26. | :40:29. | |
responsibility for that child. That child has human rights too, and it | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
is all very well saying you shouldn't have to bear it. Actually, | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
women do have a choice whether or not to have sex. Oh, let's | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
criminalise sex, unless you want to have a baby, let's have that as a | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
law! Why you encouraging sex at the age of 11? It is called rape at that | :40:48. | :40:56. | |
age. APPLAUSE How many convictions have you found? | :40:57. | :41:03. | |
Sometimes there are, but where the boy is pretty much the same age, | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
discretion comes in. Just because there is not a conviction doesn't | :41:08. | :41:13. | |
mean it is not rape, does it? I don't think she said it wasn't. Sex | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
has almost become the cup of copy at the end of the evening. I wish! | :41:20. | :41:28. | |
LAUGHTER So many girls and boys are feeling | :41:29. | :41:31. | |
pressured into having sex these days. | :41:32. | :41:43. | |
Dominick, do situations at all? No, I don't, and when I used to get rape | :41:44. | :41:54. | |
or incest, I I would hope summary would be heroic and save the life of | :41:55. | :42:01. | |
their child, even at the expense of but through all the things I have | :42:02. | :42:07. | |
learnt I have come round to say, an abortion adds a further horror on | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
top of the rape or incest and is not a good way. But the real point of | :42:12. | :42:17. | |
this is that there Yukon getaway from the fact that the point of an | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
abortion is to take a human life. Even as a tiny collection of cells? | :42:23. | :42:28. | |
You say that, I have counselled women who were told it is just a few | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
cells at 12 weeks, and then when they have had a baby that they have | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
wanted, the hospital has given them a leaflet, your baby has dear little | :42:37. | :42:40. | |
fingers and toes, and they show you these 3-D pictures you see on | :42:41. | :42:44. | |
television these days, what is obviously a human being waiving its | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
little and legs, yawning, acting like a human. It is a human being, | :42:50. | :42:56. | |
and a human death has to be the worst solution to any problem. I | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
have counselled women with serious problems, and honestly it may not be | :43:02. | :43:04. | |
easy but there is always a better help. I don't agree that there is | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
oil is a better help, but I absolutely agree that people who | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
become pregnant and wish to continue the pregnancy should be given all | :43:13. | :43:15. | |
the help and support that they need. So let's up with social services, | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
with affordable daycare and all of those things. But at the end of the | :43:20. | :43:23. | |
day it is up to an individual person to decide whether or not they wish | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
to continue that pregnancy, and I am completely respectful of your views, | :43:29. | :43:31. | |
that you believe it is a human being from the moment of conception. That | :43:32. | :43:37. | |
is absolutely fine, that is your choice. That is a medical fact. | :43:38. | :43:43. | |
Every textbook will tell you that. I am just talking about 12 weeks now. | :43:44. | :43:47. | |
At the end of the day come you can't make the decision for me or for any | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
other person as to whether or not I am ready all willing or able to | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
bring that child to term and care for it. APPLAUSE | :43:56. | :44:03. | |
why should you make the decision for her? We make the decision in our | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
country that is a body has a born baby that is an absolute torment and | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
keeps them awake the whole night and is a torment to them, they are not | :44:12. | :44:14. | |
allowed to kill that baby. We protect that baby's life. Don't you | :44:15. | :44:19. | |
think a civilised country ought to protect the lives of a baby that | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
looks like a baby, even if it is fairly small? It is no more just a | :44:24. | :44:27. | |
collection of cells than you or I are, it is a human being. APPLAUSE | :44:28. | :44:34. | |
This discussion about at what point in conception right the way through | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
the development of a foetus to birth, and what point we decide it | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
becomes a human life, it is an interesting discussion... Seven | :44:45. | :44:50. | |
months, eight months, how far would you go? I was going to give you an | :44:51. | :44:58. | |
answer I had not developed on the basis of Islam, if that is all | :44:59. | :45:04. | |
right. My point is that I don't believe it is as simple as that. I | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
don't believe there is a millisecond in time ago from not to life. It is | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
absolutely irrelevant. The situation is that there is probably someone in | :45:14. | :45:28. | |
a hospital... From the moment of conception... Let me just finished | :45:29. | :45:34. | |
my point. At eight months, you would not be talking about abortion, you | :45:35. | :45:37. | |
would be talking about putting the child up for adoption. Could I | :45:38. | :45:44. | |
please finish? There are some of the inner hospital near here that needs | :45:45. | :45:47. | |
a kidney force that you have two kidneys, most people do, and if you | :45:48. | :45:50. | |
want to donate your kidney to that person to keep them alive, then you | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
are a wonderful, fantastic human being and I support your enthusiasm | :45:55. | :45:57. | |
for doing that, but you are not obliged to. I do anyone should be | :45:58. | :46:00. | |
pinned down and have a kidney removed. If you want to tell me | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
there is a human being that in order to stay alive must have access to | :46:05. | :46:08. | |
all of my organs, my womb, my uterus, my kidneys, my lungs, I | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
would say to you that has to be my choice whether I donate the use of | :46:13. | :46:15. | |
my body to that individual. If I choose not to, as much as it might | :46:16. | :46:17. | |
be harsh, it is still my choice. Tim Cross, put yourself in a woman's | :46:18. | :46:29. | |
shoes. We all carry baggage on this. If we go back to the facts as we | :46:30. | :46:38. | |
understand them today, for 2,500 years the Hippocratic Oath said you | :46:39. | :46:49. | |
will not endorse abortion. We changed the '67 Act. At that point | :46:50. | :46:56. | |
about 6,100 abortions were conducted by the NHS and the same number were | :46:57. | :47:03. | |
carried out by backstreet abortionists. Abortionists. Women | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
were dying. Within five years it had gone up to 150,000. It reached | :47:08. | :47:14. | |
200,000 last year it was 185,000, abortions in England and Wales. | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
Since the Act about 7 million babies have been bored in this country. | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
Million have been bored in this country. -- | :47:25. | :47:30. | |
have been aborted in this country. A paper in the medical ethics European | :47:31. | :47:37. | |
alsuggested we should move now to post-birth abortion. The problem | :47:38. | :47:40. | |
arrives, there's a problem with the child... We were not getting into | :47:41. | :47:49. | |
that, Tim. The well, it is about the journey where we've come from and | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
where we are going. The argument is the change would lead to earlier | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
abortions, because there would not be so many hurdles. Hurdles.. What's | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
really important about this debate. To be fair to her the lady of the | :48:05. | :48:11. | |
midwives has put on the table the reality that the '67 Act. I would | :48:12. | :48:14. | |
argue that it is not just their decision. It is about the nature of | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
our society and how we treat life. Therefore, as a society it is fair | :48:19. | :48:24. | |
to have the conversation. Are we comfortable aborting 200,000 babies | :48:25. | :48:27. | |
a year and where this may go in the years to come. That's the question: | :48:28. | :48:37. | |
Are we comfortable? Today we've heard a lot about the sanctity of | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
life, which seems especially in Christianity to be the most | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
important precept to abortion here. But rather more importantly is the | :48:48. | :48:51. | |
quality of life. If you're pregnant and you are going to be a mother and | :48:52. | :48:57. | |
you don't want the child, if you were raped or if it was an accident, | :48:58. | :49:00. | |
you are not ready to be a mother, so that child is going to have a very | :49:01. | :49:03. | |
poor quality of life. APPLAUSE APPLAUSE. Peter, do you | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
want to respond? There are so many answers to that. Let me introduce a | :49:08. | :49:14. | |
come of points into this. Abortion is put forward as the liberation of | :49:15. | :49:21. | |
women. On the contrary, especially since the '67 Act, the liberation of | :49:22. | :49:31. | |
irresponsible men. Mara says she wishes to be autonomous, that person | :49:32. | :49:37. | |
who has the baby needs to be autonomous and have the decision | :49:38. | :49:41. | |
left to herself. First of all a baby is not a disease or a medical | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
problem. I didn't say it was. Secondly, there's a baby involved. | :49:47. | :49:49. | |
If you are going to insist so furiously on the individual rights | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
of the woman, you cannot conceivably ignore or deny or simply sweep aside | :49:54. | :50:02. | |
the right to life of the baby. It is absurd to treat one as absolute and | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
the other as non-existent. My own view, the question of rape or incest | :50:07. | :50:12. | |
is very difficult indeed for anybody who values human life. Can anybody | :50:13. | :50:18. | |
really, really deep inside having seen a living baby, many babies now | :50:19. | :50:24. | |
are born at stages where they can be abort bid. Can anybody really say | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
the killing of that baby, a human person, it was better solution than | :50:29. | :50:34. | |
the adoption of that baby. If the mother does not wanta baby, there | :50:35. | :50:37. | |
are plenty who do. APPLAUSE APPLAUSE. First of all 54% | :50:38. | :50:44. | |
of women who've terminations have already had one child. So yes they | :50:45. | :50:51. | |
have seen a living baby. Pregnancy is not a walk in the park. Let's | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
talk about the care system in this country. I'm not saying, Yay, | :50:57. | :51:05. | |
abortion! The alternative is me getting phone calls every day from | :51:06. | :51:09. | |
women in Northern Ireland who are crashing their cars to try to | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
procure a miscarriage, taking poisons, for me it's got to be the | :51:15. | :51:21. | |
woman's choice. I want to go back to the hysteria in the headlines about | :51:22. | :51:27. | |
women aborting babies up to the point of birth. When they do, it is | :51:28. | :51:32. | |
for incredibly compelling reasons. I don't think anybody has made that | :51:33. | :51:36. | |
point. You are a great one for letting people finish. There is I | :51:37. | :51:40. | |
don't think anybody in this country over the age of 11 who doesn't know | :51:41. | :51:46. | |
how babies are made. Contraception has never been so readily available. | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
You can walk into a chemist's shop and get a morning-after pill. A | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
large number of abortions, as you well know, are in the first abortion | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
or even second or third, but fourth and fifth by the same people. This | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
is being used as contraception because of the policy encouraged. In | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
the old Soviet Union were it was encouraged as much as it was here, | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
in the end the number of abortions outnumbered live births. We also | :52:15. | :52:22. | |
have the problem of gender selection. May I make this very | :52:23. | :52:28. | |
important point? In India females are aborted. At present a doctor, a | :52:29. | :52:35. | |
nurse or a midwife who refuses on grounds of conscience from | :52:36. | :52:37. | |
performing an abortion can pretty much do so. Once the decriminalisers | :52:38. | :52:42. | |
have got their way the pressure will be on those doctors and nurses who | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
in conscience do not wish to do this to do it. The whole situation will | :52:47. | :52:50. | |
turn over from one where it is fundamentally a bad thing to one | :52:51. | :52:53. | |
where it is fundamentally a good thing and everyone has to like it. | :52:54. | :52:59. | |
You've been wanting to say something for some time. In yes, this society | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
where people feel they like they can't cope, this attitude is being | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
forced upon women. Do we want to contribute to that society? Do we | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
want to contribute to this idea that women simply can't cope with the | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
pregnancy? Is it a sign of liberation that 200,000 abortions | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
happen every year? Is this helpful to women this, new | :53:22. | :53:24. | |
decriminalisation, which means abortions can happen up to birth? Is | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
that happening women and ensuring their safety? How about pro-choice? | :53:29. | :53:34. | |
Surely we should be making decisions for women. If you want to keep your | :53:35. | :53:39. | |
child and go through to birth, that's great. But how about all of | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
the women who don't have that? I as a man don't feel I should have that | :53:44. | :53:49. | |
right in society to say, should a woman not be able to have an | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
abortion, that's terrible. Do we really want a society where we have | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
control of women? APPLAUSE. They are taking away the | :53:58. | :54:06. | |
two-doctor sig you're ins. ANSMIT. They are taking away the two-doctor | :54:07. | :54:09. | |
sig you're ins. -- two doctor signatures. You are undermining the | :54:10. | :54:13. | |
seriousness of this procedure, so we are risking women's health. We are | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
letting women go through this traumatic experience, it is not | :54:18. | :54:20. | |
always the case that it's the traumatic, but it account. There's a | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
lot of bleeding involved, clearly, and being on your own, which a lot | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
of women will be. She says there's a lot of bleeding involved. That's not | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
true. As it happens, particularly earlier... What, never? I'm sorry? | :54:34. | :54:40. | |
Never? You are saying it is an absolute. Are you saying it is not | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
true. I said it is not true that there is standardly a lot of | :54:46. | :54:50. | |
bleeding in abortion. Melee abortion is one of the least complicated | :54:51. | :54:55. | |
straightforward medical... One of the other things of this | :54:56. | :54:59. | |
legislation, it would allow women having an early melee abortion to | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
take the tablets home with you and at the moment you have to take two | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
trips to the medical centre to take two sets of tablets. The second | :55:08. | :55:16. | |
sets... The first set causes the termination and the second set | :55:17. | :55:20. | |
causes the miscarriage. To be able to take those pills at home would be | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
much more sensible. Having these complicated laws is a bad idea. | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
Idea. Let me answer your question... Are there too many abortions in this | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
country? The answer is no. ALL TALK AT ONCE | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
Let me finish! The correct number of abortions is this, one for every | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
woks who wants one. The only argument is this. This belongs to | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
me. This is my uterus. I should be the one who makes decisions about | :55:49. | :55:53. | |
everything that happens to my body. And the life of the baby belongs to | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
(Inaudible) ALL TALK AT ONCE | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
Reverend Lynda Rose. . How many cases have we had of women being | :56:03. | :56:07. | |
criminalised for abortion in this country? The answer is none. One of | :56:08. | :56:14. | |
the sex grooming rings in Oxford they were using a backstreet | :56:15. | :56:17. | |
abortionist in Reading. They didn't want to girls, who were underage, to | :56:18. | :56:24. | |
go to the doctors, so their activities would become known. What | :56:25. | :56:31. | |
you would be doing effectively is contributing towards paedophilia, | :56:32. | :56:33. | |
towards abuse, exploitation of women. This is a serious point. | :56:34. | :56:39. | |
Mara, come back on that point. It is incendiary nonsense. Mara? First of | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
all I think it would've been great if those young women had been | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
allowed to go into a clinic where they would have been taken into a | :56:49. | :56:51. | |
room and it what have been found out that it what have been grooming. Why | :56:52. | :56:58. | |
do you need to decriminalise abortion? Because if you | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
decriminalise, you will increase the number of terminations that happen | :57:03. | :57:08. | |
early on. To your point about needing two doctors' signatures, why | :57:09. | :57:11. | |
do I not need two doctors' signatures to have a brain surgery, | :57:12. | :57:16. | |
a far more complicated procedure than abortion. Because it is taking | :57:17. | :57:23. | |
a life! We need to concentrate more on the mother in this argument. All | :57:24. | :57:27. | |
the experience is that it is safer for women in countries where | :57:28. | :57:32. | |
abortion is kept lower. If you compare Chile with the rest of South | :57:33. | :57:36. | |
America, that kind of thing. I would also say if there's a woman who is | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
watching this programme isn't is thinking she might be forced into an | :57:41. | :57:46. | |
abortion, she should find somebody... El Salvador is terrible | :57:47. | :57:49. | |
with the figures. It is banned there. Talk over what she can do | :57:50. | :57:55. | |
instead and look for the help available and not give up straight | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
away. There is always a better solution and people are there to | :58:00. | :58:02. | |
help you find it if you are persevere in looking for it, and it | :58:03. | :58:10. | |
does save a baby's life. I've counselled women who were, quotes, | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
forced to go ahead with the pregnancy and the story ends up, and | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
I wouldn't be without him for the world. For the sake of women and how | :58:20. | :58:24. | |
they suffer and all the research there is about the increased suit | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
risk, increased risk... ALL TALK AT ONCE. | :58:30. | :58:36. | |
Time has got away from us. Thank you all very much. | :58:37. | :58:38. | |
As always, the debates will continue online and on Twitter. | :58:39. | :58:40. | |
We're back from Oxford next Sunday for that special asking - | :58:41. | :58:43. | |
People were afraid of her political convictions - | :58:44. | :59:13. |