Episode 17 The Big Questions


Episode 17

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Today on The Big Questions: Extremist views that may also

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And abortion - should it be completely decriminalised?

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Today we're live from Wychwood School in Oxford.

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Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.

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In Wednesday's Queen's Speech, the government promised another raft

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of legislation to "prevent radicalisation, tackle

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extremism in all its forms, and promote community integration."

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So far, the government's PREVENT strategy has been most often accused

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of targeting Muslims and effectively discriminating against

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Now they're planning to intervene when local councils

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aren't doing enough to counter extremism; to close unregulated

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Madrassa and religious schools; and bring in ASBO style banning

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orders for those described as "key extremist influencers".

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So the list of those who could now be targeted may lengthen from people

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who actually do bad things to people who merely think bad things.

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And the government's definition of "peddling hatred" could be

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someone else's deeply held religious belief.

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Is countering extremism compatible with freedom of religion?

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Douglas Murray, associate director of the Henry Jackson Society, aren't

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you a keen extremist influence? You have been so critical of Islam, you

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are a neo-con hate preacher, aren't you, some of the things you have

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said? I suppose some very extreme people might claim it, I would be

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surprised if you could hold it up. I can answer the question we started

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with... You have said things in the past, conditions for Muslims in

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Europe must be made harder. I have always been of a view that it is

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unwise to have immigration at the rate it has happened in recent

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years. And I think it is a very unwise thing to do what Chancellor

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Merkel has done in the last year, to have immigration effectively at such

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a speed that you can't have an integrated society. That is what we

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are seeing, I would argue, the impact of across Europe at the

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moment. It is a very great concern. What the government is trying to do

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elsewhere is to make up, to catch up with the effects of its immigration

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policy. Because if you have, as Germany has now, an extra 2% of your

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population coming into the country every year, I would argue you don't

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have a hope of having a cohesive society. It is that I can assure you

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that if any other minority groups within a society had a constant

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record of producing a minority within it, a minority that is

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significant, people who blow up Chu, buses, or fly planes into the twin

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towers, or as happened three years ago today, murder a soldier on the

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streets of London, decapitate him in broad daylight for being a member of

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the British Army, I would say you would say that about any other

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group. You would be deeply concerned about any group in society that had

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that, even as it is a very distinct minority. Let me just remind you of

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one of the fact while you have got me onto it. A lot of other

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minorities I think rightfully are concerned about this. As a gay man,

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it doesn't enormously Glesney that as a poll fronted by Trevor Phillips

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the other week showed the majority of Muslims in the UK want

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homosexuality to be made illegal. Not on board with gay marriage, not

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entirely hot with civil partnerships, but they want

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homosexuality to be made illegal. So I think this raises all sorts of

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questions and I think they are very legitimate questions to be raised,

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and in my view they are not raised often enough. Wider you believe that

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these measures could well stymie and circumscribed a religious belief,

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and make people wary of expressing those sincerely held religious

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beliefs? Because the Prevent campaign is built on fear. It is a

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contract that has been manufactured by the state. We know it when we see

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it, in those atrocities. As you say you know it when we see it, that

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usually implies a racialised implantation of that construct. When

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people like Douglas Murray, and you don't have to be an extremist to

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believe that Douglas Murray holds very strong views, would not

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necessarily think he is an extremist, whereas we are one step

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away now from front-line workers at universities and schools getting the

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ruler out and measuring the beard of theirs June to see if they are

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terrorists or radicals. More or less, because the Prevent strategy,

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they view the taking up of the headscarf or the growing of the

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beard or conversion to Islam for example as being the indicators that

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should be used by members of civil society to decide who is a future

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terrorist. Where does it state that? These are the indicators that are

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included in the Association of Chief Police Officers. If you let me

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finish and listen, all I am saying is if you have a look at the

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Association of Chief Police Officers channel and guided documentation, it

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clearly states that conversion to Islam is an indicator. I have read

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the Prevent strategy and nowhere does it say what you have said. Let

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him finish. You will have another chance. I have read the Prevent

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strategy, and it does not talk about what you are saying. Now you are not

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letting me finish. It is ironic you spoke about fear, but this is the

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mongering, and this is one of the biggest problems we have.

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Individuals like yourself who have had a bad experience, no doubt, but

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my problem with your position is not the practical implications of

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Prevent, there are areas that need to be revisited and we need to work

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better than what we have, but your argument against the Prevent

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strategy is in principle, and that is a problem. Because what that

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applies is extremism denial, and that is a big problem. I am not

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denying anything, define the terms you are trying to counter. You can't

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define it. What we should not be fearful of is not the Prevent

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strategy, but individuals who are becoming radicalised and going

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across the border and joining an extremist group. Adam Deen, one of

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the Prevent definitions of extremism is vocal and active opposition to

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British values. Vocal opposition, does that not worry you? Firstly, in

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terms of the new bill looking to be introduced, I am dead against that,

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the idea of banning orders, banning hate preachers come I think that is

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completely the wrong way to go about things. In taking on our enemies, in

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refusing our enemies, we should not become or -- -- surely that is what

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you are doing, the moment you start to use the law against the opinions

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you amusing from a free society into an unfree society. Since the first

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Queen Victoria said I do not wish to make windows into men's souls. You

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can be punished for you do, not for what you think or what you say,

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unless it is incitement to crime. As long as you maintain that boundary,

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you are a free country. The problem with this bill, and with Mr Cameron

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ever since his speech in the United Nations, is that he doesn't

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understand this distinction, doesn't even understand it is important, and

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continues to press away with this nonsense. I am in the eyes of many

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people and chemist, simply by holding their views by and large my

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parents generation upheld, those views have become extreme. It is

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simply a term to define your opponents as people who need to be

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restricted and quite possibly expunged and imprisoned. APPLAUSE

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There is the thing about Western imperialism and this notion of

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imperialism, but it is absurd because the very notion of extremism

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exists within the Islamic tradition. For centuries, the extremist

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organisations have reared their ugly heads, and scholars throughout the

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century have debated one another on extremism, so it is not something

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that is outside of Islam. It exists within the Muslim community. Let me

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through that to Mohammed Khaliel. The Crusaders taking it back a year

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ago, we did the debate on Lee Rigby, if somebody is arguing for the

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strict enforcement of sharia law, or gender discrimination, teaching kids

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gays are condemned to hell, adulterers stoned, aren't those

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extremist values, yes or no? Firstly you just mentioned Prevent, I am the

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Cowan prevent lead, if you think a three-year-old can be criminalised

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and searched at every port when they grow, you need to look at this

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policy again. Number two, it is a policy classed as toxic. Speak to

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the community and you will see it is the most toxic brand. Mohammed, let

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me try again if I can. Arguing for the strict involvement of sharia

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law, the caliphate is an ideal society, gays are going to hell,

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adulterers being stoned. Are they extremist values? These are not

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views by people held in this country. We have people preaching a

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lot of hatred and poison against Muslims, give me one case, even in

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Muslim countries, where they practice sharia law, where they go

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as a routine, most Muslim countries do not do the death penalty, they do

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not do the stoning, all of these things. This is most Muslim

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countries that are supposed to run under sharia law. It shouldn't be

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necessary to have to shoot this down, but let me do it. Sunni, Shia,

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the most important distinctions, ahead and crucify people. The Sydney

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house of Saudi Arabia did not want this Mantella. Let's -- the Sunni.

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The most important Shia country is Iran, you will be hanged from a

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crane if you are an adulterer, so please let us not have this stupid

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cover because we are cleverer than we think you are. Everyone on this

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country can look at the internet and read articles. You cannot cover that

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over, it is fact, it is what is going on, it is what Isis is

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currently tried to do in the territories it controls. It doesn't

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come from nowhere. A great deal would be improved in this country if

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people like you came into studios like this and admitted that there is

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a problem, and admitted that he wanted to join in finding a solution

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to that problem, instead of trying to pretend that the problem doesn't

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exist. APPLAUSE Are those views very conservative

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orthodox views, please listen to the question. What about conservative

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religious views, are you worried that there is a situation where

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people will be afraid to hold those conservative orthodox views? Yes,

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because they are applicable to many other religious communities, and

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what the event strategy does is largely marginalises and restricts

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these discussions and debates like they are only held within the Muslim

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community. That is discrimination, and it is very important to note

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that the counter extremism bill Adam is talking about and is in favour

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because it has essentially funded his organisation he is representing

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today, Adam, if you let me finish, 93% of your funding in 2009-10 came

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from the Home Office and the Foreign Office, so the fact you are here as

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an echo chamber the government policy will not surprise anyone. If

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you let me finish now, it is very important for your viewers and

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listeners to recognise the evidence that this policy is based upon

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Sibley does not stack up. It is nonscientific, because there is no

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empirical evidence that says an extreme form of Islamic ideology is

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the cause of terrorism. Look at the work of Martha Crenshaw, all of

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these other studies that have been done on it, and they are pulling

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faces now because they can't come back at this. Wait a minute, Peter,

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in a second. You say they can't come back, I am going to let them. Then

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you mentioned as well other religions, and I will come to you,

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Linda, on this, because you may feel some of your views would be

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marginalised and found upon. Firstly, Prevent is not about

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dealing with social conservatism, it is about dealing with extremism that

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could potentially lead to violence. When I train teachers on Cowan

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prevent, I make it very clear that we should not conflict extremism

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with social conservatism. In practice it happens. Hold on a

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minute. What is extremism? It is your brand of extremism. In terms of

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there is no empirical evidence, this is just garbage. Yes, because

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evidence is garbage, according to the Quilliam Foundation. Let me try

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again. This link, it is garbage. This is an extreme red herring. You

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had about 90 seconds. Afford him the courtesy of giving him some time as

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well. When an Isis soldier beheads one of its captives and shouts

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"Allahu Akbar", why should we not doubt that that person is motivated

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by a pernicious reading of Islam? What I am saying... This is a really

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u've raised. # A study by the centre of religion

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and geopolitics, 100 jihadis were surveyed and over 50% of them had

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training before their extremism. So it is garbage...

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ALL TALK AT ONCE What about orthodox conservative

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Christians. You raised this point, Rizwan, what about people of your

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ilk who are worried about this legislation because what you want to

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say and believe may be curtailed. Yes, Welsh very worried. What

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aspects of your faith are you worried that people will point at

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and say, that is extreme in At the moment various points of the Bible

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where people are increasingly not allowed to quote from the Bible. It

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is an obvious one, people who hold deeply held religious views about

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human sexuality will quote something from Leviticus or whatever. David

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Cameron said explicitly that these counter extremism measures are going

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to be used to combat violent and non-violent expressions of

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extremism. Just enlighten any viewers who might not know what

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Leviticus says. There are various verses that say that it is a sin for

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a man to lie with a man. What does it say the punishment should be?

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Again, the various punishments, I'm trying to remember in Leviticus. Is

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it stoning? I would have to check that, Nicky, because I'm not

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entirely sure. Douglas Murray? Leviticus does have such threats in

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it. It is my view that, and I think Adam Deen said the same thing,

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nobody should be criminalised or prosecuted for holding what is a

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conservative religious opinion. People can have that opinion. It is

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another thing if you then believe as a result of your religious opinion

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someone should be prosecuted. If an Anglican or somebody saying they

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were speaking in the name of Anglican Christianity, today in the

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street beheaded somebody many the name of the Christian God and we

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came on this programme a week from now, do you think there would be a

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single Anglican Christian in the country who would not say, it's

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disgusting, it's appalling, we abhor this? But do you think there would

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be anybody like the line-up of people here saying how dare you talk

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about our religion, how dare you talk about Anglicanism. These two

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people epitomise the problem. Oh, my God! Lynda can respond. You said

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it's racism is it? Let's address that in a second. Reverend Lynda

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Rose... ALL TALK AT ONCE

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Everybody be quiet! Everybody be quiet. The Reverend Lynda rose you

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want to come back on that point and I would love you to do so. Thank

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you. Christians, we hold deeply held religious views but we don't don

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suicide vests and go down Oxford Street bombing people. It's the same

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with the Jewish community. We don't have vigilante groups in Golders

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Green patrolling the streets to see if anybody is not wearing the

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skullcap or whatever. But Christians are not being denied the right to...

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Rizwan, which country is the best in the world to be a Muslim? I am not

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denying the fact that the UK is probably one of the best countries,

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I was born and raised here. All I'm saying is if you deny a group of

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people the chance to show their identity around Islam, you are

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saying that you can be a citizen but you cannot be a citizen who chooses

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to express their identity around Islam. I do not engage with racists,

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Douglas... Wait, everybody! Wait everybody! After we have first

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spoken to Rabia, we are going to go to the audience. I'm sorry I haven't

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been to you so far. That's fine. Are you generally supportive of this

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legislation? I am. As a Muslim woman? I do support this legislation

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as a Muslim woman. I think Prevent is centred around preventing and

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challenging extremist views. It does not curtail debate. It is not about

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infringing on the freedom to have religious expression or to centre

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your identity around your religion. It draws a line to say that if you

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have an opinion which makes somebody else feel unsafe, we can challenge

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you on it. But if it is your opinion that young people of different sexes

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should not mix, surely as Liberals we should be fighting for people to

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be able to express those religious views? Authorities what they

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believe, from the rooftops Absolutely, and they can express it.

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So why are people appointing orthodox Muslims, and Reverend Lynda

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Rose says maybe strict orthodox Christians, saying there is

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something wrong with what you think, it doesn't fit with British society

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and people are feeling marginalised. I think the British Government has a

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responsibility to protect people's freedom to express their religious

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views, but it also has a responsibility to protect British

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lives. And that's what we need to focus on. I'm sorry, this policy

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which Douglas and Adam are not interested in shows this policy

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increases the risk of terrorism. I don't talk to racists. Just be

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quiet. By way of going to the audience, Tim Cross, Peter I will be

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back to you, but I did say I would go to the audience first. Tim Kos, I

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Taw you wanted to come in. We all carry baggage on this. If I try and

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lay out where I come from, I was a bomb disposal operator in Northern

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Ireland in the 19 0s. I learned there was a small hard core of

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brutal killers a who will blow themselves up. They did not do that

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in Northern Ireland. That number was a few hundred. Around them are are a

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few thousands in Northern Ireland prepared to fund them, give them

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shelter and hide their weapons. Around that circle was a big circle,

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probably 100,000 strong, who would never have hurt anybody, never have

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blown anybody up or harboured up but were quite sympathetic to the island

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of Northern Ireland. In pure nones terms the a lot of people are

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blowing themselves up and killing people, an inner circle funding and

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so on, and a broad circle sympathetic to these ideas and a

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caliphate. Is this the way to win the battle of ideas? What worries

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me, we talk about British values. The point about what is extremism is

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a fair point. We need to be much more positive about this. What is it

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about the nation, our nation, that means these values that are held by

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that hard core and inner circle are not just acceptable? We collectively

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need to have that debate and try and get that clearer. Thank you Tim. I

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would like to say that freedom of religion I think is a great thing

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achieved... Freedom of conscience. Freedom of conscience. Had it

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shouldn't be manipulated by those religions that they don't allow

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criticism within their own religion. For example in Christianity, if you

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criticise Jesus or anything in the Bible, nobody is going to bomb you

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or threaten you, but in Islam, nobody can talk about the prophet of

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Islam. It is not allowed by Islamic teaching. This causes extremism.

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Morning to you. Yeah, you. Me? Yes! Sorry. Just a quick point and

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question. I've done the Prevent training and as part of a school

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training and it was quite a positive experience in the sense that it was

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about protecting young people. It made it very clear, the trainers, it

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wasn't looking at just Muslims. They made that clear. It is an important

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distinction to make. It is about protecting young people in general.

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It is important not to bracket people. One of the questions I had

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to the gentleman here, it was saying that Britain is, or England, is

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quite a good place to be a Muslim. My understanding is that one of my

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really close friends is a Muslim, it is not the ideas that are very kind

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of peaceful and that are challenged. It is the ideas that can seem to

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cause people to be violent and it's those ideas that I think are rightly

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challenged rather than just being a Muslim isn't the issue. It's the

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actions. Peter, I promised to come back to you, and Kate. First of all

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there's a points about legislation that people really have to remember.

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Once it's passed it's passed. The existing Government, the people who

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are speaking out for this now, may say it won't be used for this reason

:25:44.:25:47.

or that reason. That's no guarantee. Once you've passed legislation of

:25:48.:25:51.

this kind, some future Government may well used it. Once you have the

:25:52.:25:55.

idea of extremism on the statute book, it is usable against anybody.

:25:56.:26:00.

A factual point that people need to consider. If you look at nearly

:26:01.:26:03.

every single terrorist outrage in the western world, it has not been

:26:04.:26:08.

undertaken by people who've been enthusiastic supporters of the

:26:09.:26:12.

Muslim religion. They have mostly been petty criminals leading lives

:26:13.:26:16.

of drinking, drug taking, and low-level crime. You can go through

:26:17.:26:20.

the whole list over and over again. These are not the sort of people you

:26:21.:26:24.

are classifying as extremists. If we are really worried about these

:26:25.:26:29.

people, from the killers of Lee Rigby, to the Charlie Hebdo outrage,

:26:30.:26:35.

they all have criminal records for drug abuse and petty crime, or they

:26:36.:26:39.

have friends who will recount that this is the sort of things theyna

:26:40.:26:44.

they do. These are the people, if we are seriously trying to stamp out

:26:45.:26:48.

this crime, that's where we ought to be looking. Ailient ating the

:26:49.:26:56.

psychologically homeless. Ludicrous attempts to influence thought are

:26:57.:27:00.

not justified as a terrorist measure against violence.

:27:01.:27:03.

APPLAUSE APPLAUSE. We have to answer this question, is there a link

:27:04.:27:09.

between religion and extremism, or violent behaviour or whatever.

:27:10.:27:12.

Clearly extreme behaviour needs an extreme reason. The promise of

:27:13.:27:19.

eternal life/fiery pits of hell is one of the reasons coming up we are

:27:20.:27:24.

going to talk about abortion later in the show and in the US there are

:27:25.:27:33.

Christian extremists who go around killing abortionists. There are

:27:34.:27:40.

examples of people being extreme in different religions. The Government

:27:41.:27:44.

is also worried about losing votes among ordinary religious people, so

:27:45.:27:47.

they end up with this strategy that says you are allowed to have an

:27:48.:27:53.

imaginary friend so long as he only says nice things. There's a whole

:27:54.:27:58.

trek trip of people who want to go out and kill people, who want to say

:27:59.:28:01.

horrible things about gay people, who want to force people to cover up

:28:02.:28:06.

and Vale themselves. Right the way through to people who've nasty

:28:07.:28:11.

attitudes to having sex our marriage and so on. These are attitudes we

:28:12.:28:17.

should tolerate but challenge. The Government should step away from the

:28:18.:28:21.

whole issue of religion. We know where m the whole issue of religion.

:28:22.:28:24.

We know where these problems arise from - an inequal segregated

:28:25.:28:26.

society. While we've got a Government that continues to fund

:28:27.:28:29.

faith schools and disintegration of our society, we are not going to

:28:30.:28:33.

challenge these issues. APPLAUSE. I want to get this these

:28:34.:28:40.

definitions of extremism and aligned with that our ideas of British

:28:41.:28:44.

values. One of the Prevent definitions of extremism, vogual or

:28:45.:28:49.

active opposition to British values. One is calling for the death of a

:28:50.:28:52.

member of the Armed Forces. If somebody were to call for the death

:28:53.:28:57.

of a member of the Armed Forces, is that a definition of extremism? I

:28:58.:29:01.

don't think it is that focussed. I think it is opposition to the

:29:02.:29:04.

involved of the Armed Forces. Calling for the death of a member of

:29:05.:29:08.

the Armed Forces, is that extremism? The reality of the matter is that

:29:09.:29:12.

the laws that govern international conflict are not those relative to

:29:13.:29:18.

the UK. I don't know the infrastructure of international law

:29:19.:29:24.

and civil war in this... ALL TALK AT ONCE

:29:25.:29:29.

Nicky, one thing is important. Peter raised some excellent points. You

:29:30.:29:33.

can keep claiming that ideology and religion is the cause of this issue

:29:34.:29:38.

but as Peter articulately noted, all the cases we have show this is a

:29:39.:29:43.

political phenomenon. In fact even MI5's internal research on the issue

:29:44.:29:48.

of political violence and terrorism showcases that religion acts as a

:29:49.:29:51.

balance work defence terrorism and political violence. So this idea

:29:52.:29:57.

that it is this overzealous irrational ideology driving

:29:58.:30:01.

terrorism is a complete red herring and dissen Jennous. Policies

:30:02.:30:06.

introduced now by the Government in the name of countering political

:30:07.:30:11.

Islamic violence are already being allied to Muslim communities. Police

:30:12.:30:18.

have been surveying Caroline Lucas and the Green Party. And left-wing

:30:19.:30:22.

dissidents and activists. I am not the world's greatest fan of

:30:23.:30:32.

the Prevent strategy, I think it is an attempt by the government to deal

:30:33.:30:38.

with a pretty insoluble problem. That is fairly pessimistic. If you

:30:39.:30:42.

have a choice of whether you believe you should follow David Cameron or

:30:43.:30:47.

Allah, a lot of Muslims will follow Allah, funnily enough. That is

:30:48.:30:53.

because the world is split into good and bad, isn't it? CHUCKLING

:30:54.:31:00.

If you would just allow me to finish one sentence, you might learn

:31:01.:31:07.

something. Don't patronise me! The interesting thing is that our

:31:08.:31:10.

government in Britain is trying to do as a result of the mass

:31:11.:31:14.

immigration in recent decades is to try to build a cohesive society. The

:31:15.:31:19.

interesting thing about this is that this government as with the previous

:31:20.:31:23.

doesn't particularly have the confidence to say British, British

:31:24.:31:26.

values, British institutions, so what are we doing? We are trying to

:31:27.:31:30.

make it liberal values, that Britain will be about liberal values, about

:31:31.:31:36.

gay marriage, all sorts of other things they have penned this on. I

:31:37.:31:40.

am by the way, think this is a big mistake, because it is all very well

:31:41.:31:44.

saying we will make people liberals, but that does not mean you make them

:31:45.:31:48.

British or with any other sense of identity. The interesting thing is

:31:49.:31:52.

that because the British government has decided effectively the best we

:31:53.:31:56.

can do is to make people vaguely liberal, then it means that the

:31:57.:32:00.

qualifications for extremism, as it were, are exactly effectively

:32:01.:32:05.

conservative ideas, and that is why the Islam thing keeps posing such an

:32:06.:32:10.

issue. Because in terms of social liberalism, Islam is the slowest kid

:32:11.:32:15.

in the class, and we are all speaking at the level of the slowest

:32:16.:32:18.

kid in the class and that is a problem we are not going to get over

:32:19.:32:22.

for a long time to come. Mohammed. We are coming to the end of this

:32:23.:32:27.

section, and Lynda you will have a plentiful contribution in our next

:32:28.:32:30.

debate. I have a stopwatch in my ear. Mohammed. Firstly, just to

:32:31.:32:36.

address the British values, we went through this, people prefer

:32:37.:32:42.

universal values as opposed to British values. That incorporates

:32:43.:32:47.

more than that, a respect for every human being. Rendition, torture, all

:32:48.:32:54.

of that. I thought it was going to be a nice

:32:55.:33:05.

last wise word from Mohammed Khaliel. All of a sudden, mayhem and

:33:06.:33:12.

bedlam! Mohammed Khaliel, the last word. Let me put it at the last

:33:13.:33:17.

word, if everything was true as these right-wingers claim it is, why

:33:18.:33:26.

is is lamb the fastest-growing religion in the Western world? That

:33:27.:33:32.

says it all. It converts by the sword! That is the end of it.

:33:33.:33:34.

You too can join in both this morning's debates by logging

:33:35.:33:37.

on to bbc.co.uk/the big questions then following the link

:33:38.:33:39.

Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq.

:33:40.:33:44.

Tell us what you think about our next Big Question too:

:33:45.:33:47.

Next Sunday we're back from Wychwood School in Oxford

:33:48.:33:50.

with a special debate asking just one Big Question:

:33:51.:33:52.

And, if you'd like to be in the audience at a future show,

:33:53.:33:59.

We're in Uxbridge in northwest London on June 5th for our usual

:34:00.:34:05.

live morning programme, and in the afternoon

:34:06.:34:07.

we're recording the last programme of this series,

:34:08.:34:09.

a special, asking a very Big Question indeed: Are we facing

:34:10.:34:11.

The We Trust Women Campaign has been launched by the British

:34:12.:34:28.

Pregnancy Advisory Service, who provide abortions

:34:29.:34:29.

They are calling for abortions to be decriminalised so no woman

:34:30.:34:33.

could be legally punished for inducing an abortion,

:34:34.:34:35.

Abortions would no longer require two doctors' signatures.

:34:36.:34:41.

Chemical abortions could take place in a woman's home, and abortion

:34:42.:34:44.

would be available at any stage of a pregnancy.

:34:45.:34:46.

The chief executive of the Royal College of Midwives

:34:47.:34:49.

has pledged her support but without consulting her members,

:34:50.:34:50.

many of whom are up in arms about the idea.

:34:51.:34:58.

Proponents argue that decriminalisation has worked

:34:59.:35:02.

in Canada and in Australian states without increasing the number

:35:03.:35:05.

of abortions but rather enabling more of them to take place

:35:06.:35:08.

It would mean treating abortion like any other medical procedure -

:35:09.:35:16.

a matter for the woman and her medical advisers,

:35:17.:35:18.

be they doctors, midwives or nurses, to discuss what is in her

:35:19.:35:21.

So, should abortion be decriminalised?

:35:22.:35:30.

Kate come on why the change, what is wrong with the current laws, the

:35:31.:35:37.

Czechs, the balances, up to 24 weeks? Why do you think it needs to

:35:38.:35:42.

change? The current law is pretty awful. Since 1967, women have been

:35:43.:35:46.

making do with it, but the current situation in the UK is that abortion

:35:47.:35:51.

was criminalised, something like 150 years ago, offences against the

:35:52.:35:56.

Person act, which also criminalised homosexuality and lots of other

:35:57.:36:02.

things. Then, in 67, we made a new abortion law which essentially

:36:03.:36:05.

provided some exemptions to that. Exemptions were given, provided that

:36:06.:36:10.

you have two Doctors's signatures, provided that it is before 24 weeks

:36:11.:36:17.

of the pregnancy. All of those were put in as exceptions, which means

:36:18.:36:20.

that if you fail to get a second doctor's signature on your abortion

:36:21.:36:25.

procurement form you can technically be criminalised, and of course the

:36:26.:36:28.

67 act did not cover Northern Ireland. So women who want an

:36:29.:36:32.

abortion, they know what they want and they have found a way through

:36:33.:36:35.

the legislation to get what they want. But what we are seeing as ever

:36:36.:36:39.

is that every week we have about 40 women a week, were from Northern

:36:40.:36:43.

Ireland to other parts of the UK to access an abortion, and every year a

:36:44.:36:46.

very small number of women who for whatever reason don't fit the

:36:47.:36:50.

criteria laid out, or example they are a tiny bit more than 24 weeks

:36:51.:36:54.

pregnant, end up going to Canada or Holland, and getting the service

:36:55.:36:58.

there. We look at one of these cases, are these women who have just

:36:59.:37:01.

flippantly not thought about what is going on until the last minute, no.

:37:02.:37:06.

We see some really difficult stories, we see very young women who

:37:07.:37:08.

did not even realise they could get pregnant at the time the abuse took

:37:09.:37:12.

place, and I think either criminalised those women or force

:37:13.:37:15.

them on a plane to Canada is cruel and daft. This might be the most

:37:16.:37:18.

radical thing anyone has ever said on your show, but I think women are

:37:19.:37:22.

intelligent, rational human beings, and that when they need medical

:37:23.:37:26.

treatment they should go to a doctor and havoc on the their doctor, and

:37:27.:37:32.

it is nobody 's's business. APPLAUSE Because I did not get to you at the

:37:33.:37:36.

end of the last debate, Lynda, I will come to you now. Do you really

:37:37.:37:42.

believe that people are casual about abortion? No, I don't think that,...

:37:43.:37:52.

Do you think people are treating it as contraception? Yes, I do. The

:37:53.:38:00.

abortion laws in this country have never been about criminalising

:38:01.:38:02.

women, they have been about defending the right of the unborn

:38:03.:38:08.

child. APPLAUSE The reality these days is that when

:38:09.:38:15.

a woman goes to a doctor, whatever age, the first question, and this is

:38:16.:38:19.

my experience too, so I know this is right, the first question is do you

:38:20.:38:24.

want this baby? And if they say no, they get referred for an abortion.

:38:25.:38:28.

This thing about having two signatures is nonsense, because we

:38:29.:38:32.

have all come across the stories now that our established fact where they

:38:33.:38:38.

keep these signed forms. Because even doctors know this legislation

:38:39.:38:41.

is a complete waste of everybody's time. But why would you want to

:38:42.:38:46.

extend? There was an opinion poll taken in 2012, 2% of women asked

:38:47.:38:56.

said yes, we want folders -- file decriminalisation. 59% of women said

:38:57.:39:02.

actually, you know what, we want a reduction in the time-limit for an

:39:03.:39:06.

abortion, because now routinely babies are surviving from 22 weeks,

:39:07.:39:10.

some as early as 20 weeks. There is no evidence of that either. Why are

:39:11.:39:16.

we still aborting unborn children at 24 weeks when in the next room

:39:17.:39:20.

doctors are fighting... We have this debate in Parliament a couple of

:39:21.:39:27.

years ago. What about this notion that it is being used as a form of

:39:28.:39:32.

contraception? I come to it from the point where I routinely help women

:39:33.:39:36.

who live in Northern Ireland and Ireland where they can't get

:39:37.:39:39.

abortions at all come to England, so I am dealing with the actual effects

:39:40.:39:46.

of criminalising abortion, where they are literally drinking bleach

:39:47.:39:48.

if they don't have the money to come over. This idea of using abortion as

:39:49.:39:52.

contraception, that is not great, but as a parent I have to say being

:39:53.:39:57.

a parent is a really giant, big job and it shouldn't be forced upon

:39:58.:40:00.

anybody who doesn't want it, OK? APPLAUSE

:40:01.:40:04.

I can tell you every kind of birth control you can be on you can still

:40:05.:40:10.

get pregnant, and even if you were "Careless", and had sex without

:40:11.:40:13.

birth control or the condom broke or whatever, to me that should not

:40:14.:40:16.

result in the punishment of having to care for a live human. It is not

:40:17.:40:25.

a punishment! Once a child is conceived, actually you bear

:40:26.:40:29.

responsibility for that child. That child has human rights too, and it

:40:30.:40:32.

is all very well saying you shouldn't have to bear it. Actually,

:40:33.:40:36.

women do have a choice whether or not to have sex. Oh, let's

:40:37.:40:41.

criminalise sex, unless you want to have a baby, let's have that as a

:40:42.:40:47.

law! Why you encouraging sex at the age of 11? It is called rape at that

:40:48.:40:56.

age. APPLAUSE How many convictions have you found?

:40:57.:41:03.

Sometimes there are, but where the boy is pretty much the same age,

:41:04.:41:07.

discretion comes in. Just because there is not a conviction doesn't

:41:08.:41:13.

mean it is not rape, does it? I don't think she said it wasn't. Sex

:41:14.:41:19.

has almost become the cup of copy at the end of the evening. I wish!

:41:20.:41:28.

LAUGHTER So many girls and boys are feeling

:41:29.:41:31.

pressured into having sex these days.

:41:32.:41:43.

Dominick, do situations at all? No, I don't, and when I used to get rape

:41:44.:41:54.

or incest, I I would hope summary would be heroic and save the life of

:41:55.:42:01.

their child, even at the expense of but through all the things I have

:42:02.:42:07.

learnt I have come round to say, an abortion adds a further horror on

:42:08.:42:11.

top of the rape or incest and is not a good way. But the real point of

:42:12.:42:17.

this is that there Yukon getaway from the fact that the point of an

:42:18.:42:22.

abortion is to take a human life. Even as a tiny collection of cells?

:42:23.:42:28.

You say that, I have counselled women who were told it is just a few

:42:29.:42:32.

cells at 12 weeks, and then when they have had a baby that they have

:42:33.:42:36.

wanted, the hospital has given them a leaflet, your baby has dear little

:42:37.:42:40.

fingers and toes, and they show you these 3-D pictures you see on

:42:41.:42:44.

television these days, what is obviously a human being waiving its

:42:45.:42:49.

little and legs, yawning, acting like a human. It is a human being,

:42:50.:42:56.

and a human death has to be the worst solution to any problem. I

:42:57.:43:01.

have counselled women with serious problems, and honestly it may not be

:43:02.:43:04.

easy but there is always a better help. I don't agree that there is

:43:05.:43:08.

oil is a better help, but I absolutely agree that people who

:43:09.:43:12.

become pregnant and wish to continue the pregnancy should be given all

:43:13.:43:15.

the help and support that they need. So let's up with social services,

:43:16.:43:19.

with affordable daycare and all of those things. But at the end of the

:43:20.:43:23.

day it is up to an individual person to decide whether or not they wish

:43:24.:43:28.

to continue that pregnancy, and I am completely respectful of your views,

:43:29.:43:31.

that you believe it is a human being from the moment of conception. That

:43:32.:43:37.

is absolutely fine, that is your choice. That is a medical fact.

:43:38.:43:43.

Every textbook will tell you that. I am just talking about 12 weeks now.

:43:44.:43:47.

At the end of the day come you can't make the decision for me or for any

:43:48.:43:51.

other person as to whether or not I am ready all willing or able to

:43:52.:43:55.

bring that child to term and care for it. APPLAUSE

:43:56.:44:03.

why should you make the decision for her? We make the decision in our

:44:04.:44:08.

country that is a body has a born baby that is an absolute torment and

:44:09.:44:11.

keeps them awake the whole night and is a torment to them, they are not

:44:12.:44:14.

allowed to kill that baby. We protect that baby's life. Don't you

:44:15.:44:19.

think a civilised country ought to protect the lives of a baby that

:44:20.:44:23.

looks like a baby, even if it is fairly small? It is no more just a

:44:24.:44:27.

collection of cells than you or I are, it is a human being. APPLAUSE

:44:28.:44:34.

This discussion about at what point in conception right the way through

:44:35.:44:40.

the development of a foetus to birth, and what point we decide it

:44:41.:44:44.

becomes a human life, it is an interesting discussion... Seven

:44:45.:44:50.

months, eight months, how far would you go? I was going to give you an

:44:51.:44:58.

answer I had not developed on the basis of Islam, if that is all

:44:59.:45:04.

right. My point is that I don't believe it is as simple as that. I

:45:05.:45:08.

don't believe there is a millisecond in time ago from not to life. It is

:45:09.:45:13.

absolutely irrelevant. The situation is that there is probably someone in

:45:14.:45:28.

a hospital... From the moment of conception... Let me just finished

:45:29.:45:34.

my point. At eight months, you would not be talking about abortion, you

:45:35.:45:37.

would be talking about putting the child up for adoption. Could I

:45:38.:45:44.

please finish? There are some of the inner hospital near here that needs

:45:45.:45:47.

a kidney force that you have two kidneys, most people do, and if you

:45:48.:45:50.

want to donate your kidney to that person to keep them alive, then you

:45:51.:45:54.

are a wonderful, fantastic human being and I support your enthusiasm

:45:55.:45:57.

for doing that, but you are not obliged to. I do anyone should be

:45:58.:46:00.

pinned down and have a kidney removed. If you want to tell me

:46:01.:46:04.

there is a human being that in order to stay alive must have access to

:46:05.:46:08.

all of my organs, my womb, my uterus, my kidneys, my lungs, I

:46:09.:46:12.

would say to you that has to be my choice whether I donate the use of

:46:13.:46:15.

my body to that individual. If I choose not to, as much as it might

:46:16.:46:17.

be harsh, it is still my choice. Tim Cross, put yourself in a woman's

:46:18.:46:29.

shoes. We all carry baggage on this. If we go back to the facts as we

:46:30.:46:38.

understand them today, for 2,500 years the Hippocratic Oath said you

:46:39.:46:49.

will not endorse abortion. We changed the '67 Act. At that point

:46:50.:46:56.

about 6,100 abortions were conducted by the NHS and the same number were

:46:57.:47:03.

carried out by backstreet abortionists. Abortionists. Women

:47:04.:47:07.

were dying. Within five years it had gone up to 150,000. It reached

:47:08.:47:14.

200,000 last year it was 185,000, abortions in England and Wales.

:47:15.:47:19.

Since the Act about 7 million babies have been bored in this country.

:47:20.:47:24.

Million have been bored in this country. --

:47:25.:47:30.

have been aborted in this country. A paper in the medical ethics European

:47:31.:47:37.

alsuggested we should move now to post-birth abortion. The problem

:47:38.:47:40.

arrives, there's a problem with the child... We were not getting into

:47:41.:47:49.

that, Tim. The well, it is about the journey where we've come from and

:47:50.:47:54.

where we are going. The argument is the change would lead to earlier

:47:55.:47:59.

abortions, because there would not be so many hurdles. Hurdles.. What's

:48:00.:48:04.

really important about this debate. To be fair to her the lady of the

:48:05.:48:11.

midwives has put on the table the reality that the '67 Act. I would

:48:12.:48:14.

argue that it is not just their decision. It is about the nature of

:48:15.:48:18.

our society and how we treat life. Therefore, as a society it is fair

:48:19.:48:24.

to have the conversation. Are we comfortable aborting 200,000 babies

:48:25.:48:27.

a year and where this may go in the years to come. That's the question:

:48:28.:48:37.

Are we comfortable? Today we've heard a lot about the sanctity of

:48:38.:48:43.

life, which seems especially in Christianity to be the most

:48:44.:48:47.

important precept to abortion here. But rather more importantly is the

:48:48.:48:51.

quality of life. If you're pregnant and you are going to be a mother and

:48:52.:48:57.

you don't want the child, if you were raped or if it was an accident,

:48:58.:49:00.

you are not ready to be a mother, so that child is going to have a very

:49:01.:49:03.

poor quality of life. APPLAUSE APPLAUSE. Peter, do you

:49:04.:49:07.

want to respond? There are so many answers to that. Let me introduce a

:49:08.:49:14.

come of points into this. Abortion is put forward as the liberation of

:49:15.:49:21.

women. On the contrary, especially since the '67 Act, the liberation of

:49:22.:49:31.

irresponsible men. Mara says she wishes to be autonomous, that person

:49:32.:49:37.

who has the baby needs to be autonomous and have the decision

:49:38.:49:41.

left to herself. First of all a baby is not a disease or a medical

:49:42.:49:46.

problem. I didn't say it was. Secondly, there's a baby involved.

:49:47.:49:49.

If you are going to insist so furiously on the individual rights

:49:50.:49:53.

of the woman, you cannot conceivably ignore or deny or simply sweep aside

:49:54.:50:02.

the right to life of the baby. It is absurd to treat one as absolute and

:50:03.:50:06.

the other as non-existent. My own view, the question of rape or incest

:50:07.:50:12.

is very difficult indeed for anybody who values human life. Can anybody

:50:13.:50:18.

really, really deep inside having seen a living baby, many babies now

:50:19.:50:24.

are born at stages where they can be abort bid. Can anybody really say

:50:25.:50:28.

the killing of that baby, a human person, it was better solution than

:50:29.:50:34.

the adoption of that baby. If the mother does not wanta baby, there

:50:35.:50:37.

are plenty who do. APPLAUSE APPLAUSE. First of all 54%

:50:38.:50:44.

of women who've terminations have already had one child. So yes they

:50:45.:50:51.

have seen a living baby. Pregnancy is not a walk in the park. Let's

:50:52.:50:56.

talk about the care system in this country. I'm not saying, Yay,

:50:57.:51:05.

abortion! The alternative is me getting phone calls every day from

:51:06.:51:09.

women in Northern Ireland who are crashing their cars to try to

:51:10.:51:14.

procure a miscarriage, taking poisons, for me it's got to be the

:51:15.:51:21.

woman's choice. I want to go back to the hysteria in the headlines about

:51:22.:51:27.

women aborting babies up to the point of birth. When they do, it is

:51:28.:51:32.

for incredibly compelling reasons. I don't think anybody has made that

:51:33.:51:36.

point. You are a great one for letting people finish. There is I

:51:37.:51:40.

don't think anybody in this country over the age of 11 who doesn't know

:51:41.:51:46.

how babies are made. Contraception has never been so readily available.

:51:47.:51:51.

You can walk into a chemist's shop and get a morning-after pill. A

:51:52.:51:55.

large number of abortions, as you well know, are in the first abortion

:51:56.:51:59.

or even second or third, but fourth and fifth by the same people. This

:52:00.:52:04.

is being used as contraception because of the policy encouraged. In

:52:05.:52:09.

the old Soviet Union were it was encouraged as much as it was here,

:52:10.:52:14.

in the end the number of abortions outnumbered live births. We also

:52:15.:52:22.

have the problem of gender selection. May I make this very

:52:23.:52:28.

important point? In India females are aborted. At present a doctor, a

:52:29.:52:35.

nurse or a midwife who refuses on grounds of conscience from

:52:36.:52:37.

performing an abortion can pretty much do so. Once the decriminalisers

:52:38.:52:42.

have got their way the pressure will be on those doctors and nurses who

:52:43.:52:46.

in conscience do not wish to do this to do it. The whole situation will

:52:47.:52:50.

turn over from one where it is fundamentally a bad thing to one

:52:51.:52:53.

where it is fundamentally a good thing and everyone has to like it.

:52:54.:52:59.

You've been wanting to say something for some time. In yes, this society

:53:00.:53:04.

where people feel they like they can't cope, this attitude is being

:53:05.:53:08.

forced upon women. Do we want to contribute to that society? Do we

:53:09.:53:13.

want to contribute to this idea that women simply can't cope with the

:53:14.:53:17.

pregnancy? Is it a sign of liberation that 200,000 abortions

:53:18.:53:21.

happen every year? Is this helpful to women this, new

:53:22.:53:24.

decriminalisation, which means abortions can happen up to birth? Is

:53:25.:53:28.

that happening women and ensuring their safety? How about pro-choice?

:53:29.:53:34.

Surely we should be making decisions for women. If you want to keep your

:53:35.:53:39.

child and go through to birth, that's great. But how about all of

:53:40.:53:43.

the women who don't have that? I as a man don't feel I should have that

:53:44.:53:49.

right in society to say, should a woman not be able to have an

:53:50.:53:53.

abortion, that's terrible. Do we really want a society where we have

:53:54.:53:57.

control of women? APPLAUSE. They are taking away the

:53:58.:54:06.

two-doctor sig you're ins. ANSMIT. They are taking away the two-doctor

:54:07.:54:09.

sig you're ins. -- two doctor signatures. You are undermining the

:54:10.:54:13.

seriousness of this procedure, so we are risking women's health. We are

:54:14.:54:17.

letting women go through this traumatic experience, it is not

:54:18.:54:20.

always the case that it's the traumatic, but it account. There's a

:54:21.:54:23.

lot of bleeding involved, clearly, and being on your own, which a lot

:54:24.:54:29.

of women will be. She says there's a lot of bleeding involved. That's not

:54:30.:54:33.

true. As it happens, particularly earlier... What, never? I'm sorry?

:54:34.:54:40.

Never? You are saying it is an absolute. Are you saying it is not

:54:41.:54:45.

true. I said it is not true that there is standardly a lot of

:54:46.:54:50.

bleeding in abortion. Melee abortion is one of the least complicated

:54:51.:54:55.

straightforward medical... One of the other things of this

:54:56.:54:59.

legislation, it would allow women having an early melee abortion to

:55:00.:55:03.

take the tablets home with you and at the moment you have to take two

:55:04.:55:07.

trips to the medical centre to take two sets of tablets. The second

:55:08.:55:16.

sets... The first set causes the termination and the second set

:55:17.:55:20.

causes the miscarriage. To be able to take those pills at home would be

:55:21.:55:25.

much more sensible. Having these complicated laws is a bad idea.

:55:26.:55:30.

Idea. Let me answer your question... Are there too many abortions in this

:55:31.:55:34.

country? The answer is no. ALL TALK AT ONCE

:55:35.:55:39.

Let me finish! The correct number of abortions is this, one for every

:55:40.:55:44.

woks who wants one. The only argument is this. This belongs to

:55:45.:55:48.

me. This is my uterus. I should be the one who makes decisions about

:55:49.:55:53.

everything that happens to my body. And the life of the baby belongs to

:55:54.:55:57.

(Inaudible) ALL TALK AT ONCE

:55:58.:56:02.

Reverend Lynda Rose. . How many cases have we had of women being

:56:03.:56:07.

criminalised for abortion in this country? The answer is none. One of

:56:08.:56:14.

the sex grooming rings in Oxford they were using a backstreet

:56:15.:56:17.

abortionist in Reading. They didn't want to girls, who were underage, to

:56:18.:56:24.

go to the doctors, so their activities would become known. What

:56:25.:56:31.

you would be doing effectively is contributing towards paedophilia,

:56:32.:56:33.

towards abuse, exploitation of women. This is a serious point.

:56:34.:56:39.

Mara, come back on that point. It is incendiary nonsense. Mara? First of

:56:40.:56:44.

all I think it would've been great if those young women had been

:56:45.:56:48.

allowed to go into a clinic where they would have been taken into a

:56:49.:56:51.

room and it what have been found out that it what have been grooming. Why

:56:52.:56:58.

do you need to decriminalise abortion? Because if you

:56:59.:57:02.

decriminalise, you will increase the number of terminations that happen

:57:03.:57:08.

early on. To your point about needing two doctors' signatures, why

:57:09.:57:11.

do I not need two doctors' signatures to have a brain surgery,

:57:12.:57:16.

a far more complicated procedure than abortion. Because it is taking

:57:17.:57:23.

a life! We need to concentrate more on the mother in this argument. All

:57:24.:57:27.

the experience is that it is safer for women in countries where

:57:28.:57:32.

abortion is kept lower. If you compare Chile with the rest of South

:57:33.:57:36.

America, that kind of thing. I would also say if there's a woman who is

:57:37.:57:40.

watching this programme isn't is thinking she might be forced into an

:57:41.:57:46.

abortion, she should find somebody... El Salvador is terrible

:57:47.:57:49.

with the figures. It is banned there. Talk over what she can do

:57:50.:57:55.

instead and look for the help available and not give up straight

:57:56.:57:59.

away. There is always a better solution and people are there to

:58:00.:58:02.

help you find it if you are persevere in looking for it, and it

:58:03.:58:10.

does save a baby's life. I've counselled women who were, quotes,

:58:11.:58:15.

forced to go ahead with the pregnancy and the story ends up, and

:58:16.:58:19.

I wouldn't be without him for the world. For the sake of women and how

:58:20.:58:24.

they suffer and all the research there is about the increased suit

:58:25.:58:29.

risk, increased risk... ALL TALK AT ONCE.

:58:30.:58:36.

Time has got away from us. Thank you all very much.

:58:37.:58:38.

As always, the debates will continue online and on Twitter.

:58:39.:58:40.

We're back from Oxford next Sunday for that special asking -

:58:41.:58:43.

People were afraid of her political convictions -

:58:44.:59:13.

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