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Today on The Big Questions: Dead men's crimes. | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
And the battle of the sexes on social media. | :00:07. | :00:20. | |
Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions. | :00:21. | :00:28. | |
Today we're live from Harris Academy in Peckham. | :00:29. | :00:30. | |
Welcome, everyone, to The Big Questions. | :00:31. | :00:41. | |
On Friday, an Old Bailey judge brought to an end any criminal | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
proceedings against Lord Janner, who died in December. | :00:45. | :00:46. | |
Lord Janner suffered from advanced Alzheimer's disease and was declared | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
unfit to stand trial for 22 counts of sexual abuse against boys, | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
said to be committed from the 1960s onwards. | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
But there was to be a trial of the facts, | :01:02. | :01:03. | |
to be held in April, where a jury would have decided | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
if the allegations were true or false. | :01:07. | :01:08. | |
Friday's decision means this will not go ahead. | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
And, of course, civil claims against Lord Janner's estate | :01:13. | :01:14. | |
for damages caused by the alleged crimes can and will continue. | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
Matthew, criminal barrister and blogger, good morning to you. The | :01:18. | :01:32. | |
trial of the facts has not gone ahead, so there will be no justice | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
in a technical sense. Many of the victims, the alleged victims as you | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
would say, will feel there has been no justice in a moral sense as well. | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
They have not had justice, they have not had their day in court. That | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
could equally apply, thinking about it, too Lord Janner's family. They | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
have not had the chance in court to clear his name. You can understand | :01:55. | :02:02. | |
why people are so angry? I can understand why people are angry and | :02:03. | :02:04. | |
upset about the fact the trial will not take place with these very | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
serious allegations. It is not right to say there will be no justice. | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
There will be no criminal justice because criminal law does not allow | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
the trial of a dead person but there are other ways of achieving justice. | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
There is an inquiry set up to look into allegations of this sort, and | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
the judge, justice god art, has said she will look into the allegations | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
against Lord Janner. There is talk of witnesses giving evidence on | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
television if they want to do that, in public, and she will no doubt | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
come to a conclusion. Why not a trial of the facts? You cannot have | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
a criminal trial without a defendant to defend himself. Our justice | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
system requires two sides, the prosecution and defence, to give | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
evidence, to challenge each other's evidence, to cross-examine | :02:57. | :02:58. | |
witnesses, and out of that we hope that the truth will emerge. And | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
criminal verdict will emerge. That could five years at least. We don't | :03:05. | :03:11. | |
know how long it will take to deal with the aspect of the inquiry that | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
will be looking at Lord Janner. It may take a long time, it may be that | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
the judge may be able to give some preliminary verdict, some finding in | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
relation to that. It could be before five years. That will be a matter | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
for Justice Goddard. Chilcott is not a great press it doesn't -- great | :03:31. | :03:38. | |
precedent. You cannot have a trial of the facts if the defendant is | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
dead? Of course not but it is very disappointing for the victims in | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
this case that they will never have the evidence heard in court. | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
Especially in the Lord Janner case, previously the Crown Prosecution | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
Service looked at the evidence and said there was a case to answer. | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
Political elites, the police, everybody around Lord Janner has a | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
case to answer about why they protected him for so long and why he | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
was not brought to justice while he was alive. These crimes date back to | :04:07. | :04:13. | |
the 60s. Trial of the facts could have got to the heart of that web | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
protection? Yes. The victims wanted to be heard back in the 90s and over | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
and again Lord Janner was protected from ending up in court. Projected | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
in Parliament by MPs who sought to prop up his reputation. The police | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
did not deal with it properly and they have accepted that. It is | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
really disappointing for the victims that they never will get their | :04:37. | :04:44. | |
evidence heard in court. Joshua? First of all it is not true that the | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
alleged victims will not get their evidence heard in court if they go | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
ahead as they plan to with civil proceedings. Secondly, as Matthew | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
said, there is an inquiry. There is great misunderstanding about the | :04:58. | :05:00. | |
trial of the facts. It would not have established whether or not Lord | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
Janner was guilty. He would not have been in a position to put his | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
defence. A trial of the facts is simply a procedure to make sure that | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
somebody is not sent to a mental hospital indefinitely when no crime | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
has been committed. It does not amount to a poor person's trial, | :05:18. | :05:25. | |
trial in somebody's absence, it just establishes whether an offence was | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
committed. Victims want their day in court. Tough. The criminal justice | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
system is not there for that. It is to decide whether a person accused | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
of a crime is guilty with all the defences available to it. It is not | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
a poor man's public inquiry and not a way of delivering closure to | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
alleged victims. That is not what a criminal trial is about. Peter, | :05:48. | :05:56. | |
could you give us an idea in the light of this decision, in the wake | :05:57. | :05:59. | |
of this decision, how the alleged victims feel about this decision | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
that there will be no trial of the facts? Understandably devastated but | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
can I put it into context because that is so important? A couple of | :06:11. | :06:13. | |
days ago, and bear with me because I can go round the houses but I will | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
be quick, and a couple of days ago Tim Peake was looking down at our | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
tiny little polluted planet, where other until planet earth foundation | :06:24. | :06:30. | |
initiated a movement that eradicated something like 50% of child death | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
through starvation, on the planet today, that little planet, this | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
planet, there is in excess of 1 billion children being abused every | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
year. 1 billion. That is a lot of people, including hundreds and | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
hundreds of thousands of children in this country. Anybody who has been | :06:47. | :06:53. | |
seen... We are talking about one individual. There was a chance in | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
1991 for that case. I am getting to that. Let me finish. Anybody who has | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
been part of that Holocaust, because that is what it is, holocaust | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
against our children, of which Lord Janner stands accused, and 20 years | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
ago the CPS said there was overwhelming evidence that he should | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
have been put towards the courts, and I think Dawn has explained the | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
cover-ups and why it has not happened. So there should have been | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
a trial of the facts? They're absolutely should. It is like | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
looking back at the Nazis. OK, most of them are dead, thank God, that | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
they committed the most horrendous crimes against humanity. Just | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
because they are dead does not mean we cannot learn lessons and expose | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
the truth, because the truth is what sets us free, and I say that as a | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
Christian man, and the truth is what will help protect our children in | :07:48. | :07:54. | |
the future. Joshua? You cannot try dead people. We did not try Jimmy | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
Savile, we don't try dead people. They cannot defend themselves and | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
they cannot be punished. You can have inquiries, you can take money | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
from the estate perhaps, but you cannot put a dead person on trial. I | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
really wish you wouldn't bring money into it, Joshua. Because I work at | :08:12. | :08:20. | |
NAPAC and we hear from survivors of abuse every year and money does not | :08:21. | :08:27. | |
come into it at all. So why are they doing? Because sometimes it is the | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
only option. If you hit people where it hurts, and institutions that is | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
in the pocket, then they might change. They have not changed. | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
Children are no less safe today than they were 40 years ago, which is | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
criminal. People want to sue and very often people who do that do not | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
do it for the money and very often they give it to charity and make | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
good use for it, and then there could be change. We have got to have | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
change. We have over a million children in this country every year | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
suffering abuse and it is an utter criminal outrage. I think something | :09:02. | :09:08. | |
that might help with this is the realisation of our defamation laws. | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
I did a post after Jimmy Savile died that I was attacked for. I said that | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
the Jay Z scandals will come out now and he was barely cold but I did it | :09:17. | :09:24. | |
anyway. -- jersey scandals. Everybody in the press knew, but why | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
did they not write about it? Because of ridiculous libel laws. If they | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
were relaxed, things would improve and we could bring people to | :09:33. | :09:41. | |
justice. I know everybody hates journalists, but they do | :09:42. | :09:43. | |
occasionally do good work and they bring these cases to public | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
attention. If we had done this with Jimmy Savile and Lord Janner, they | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
would have been tried when alive and the way to achieve that is to relax | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
stupid libel laws. As a survivor, Peter, I know very well the | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
brilliant work you have done, brave people, survivors who have come | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
forward, and it is not easy. What do you say to those people who have | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
gone out on a limb and said, come on, why has it taken until now for | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
those people to come forward and talk about Lord Janner? Why has it | :10:15. | :10:21. | |
taken so long? We haven't got time for me to explain everything about | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
why children do not speak out when they are being raped, tortured, | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
abused. What we do know is that eventually many of them, thank God, | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
are feeling able and having the strength to come forward and speak | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
out now, because that is one of the most powerful ways we will protect | :10:37. | :10:39. | |
our children in the future, to speak out. Alan? We have to be careful | :10:40. | :10:50. | |
about using hysterical language around child abuse, such as | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
Holocaust. To me it is a holocaust. It is just not true. The whole point | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
about the Lord Janner case is not whether we are trying a dead man or | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
not. I think it is perverse to try a dead man. It is more about having | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
emotional group therapy for the alleged victims and complainants. | :11:11. | :11:12. | |
Actually the media has called them victims throughout when because | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
there has been no case they are not victims yet until somebody is proven | :11:17. | :11:23. | |
guilty. Alleged victims, yes. Are using the law, doing a case, or | :11:24. | :11:30. | |
having emotional group therapy which results in hysterical reactions? Any | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
more opinions in the audience? Nobody at this stage wants to come | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
forward but Kate does. There's a surprise! Fancy that! Unfortunately, | :11:40. | :11:46. | |
when it comes to running trials on people that have already died, it | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
always comes down to what are we trying to achieve? I think it is | :11:51. | :11:53. | |
important that victims get a chance to talk about the experience and it | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
is really important to learn lessons and I think in a case like Lord | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
Janner's there are probably good grounds for saying that some of | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
those people around protecting him should be brought to trial. They may | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
still be alive and able to stand trial. But on that, I think we also | :12:09. | :12:15. | |
need to talk about the fact there is a limited amount of money to be | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
spent on doing these things and we have to make sure we prioritise | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
things first. We have to take to trial first those people that might | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
still be on the streets and still be a threat and risk. What price | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
justice? We are doing a bad job of that. We are spending more on | :12:34. | :12:36. | |
Operation Yewtree than protecting young people that might currently be | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
at risk and we need to change that. The idea that there is a Kabbalah of | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
people that protected Lord Janner is completely unproven. It is being | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
accepted by everybody who has spoken so far in this room that there is | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
some sort of secret conspiracy to protect him in Parliament and the | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
police. It is not secret. And the CPS. It is completely unproven and | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
it needs to be said that the inquiry that Justice Goddard is holding is | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
to try and establish exactly whether there is any such thing at all or | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
whether it is the product of a rather overexcited imagination. I go | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
on record to say that I don't believe for a moment that there is | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
some sort of conspiracy to protect Lord Janner. I think probably it | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
will be shown to be nonsense. I might be wrong. I hope not. Dawn? I | :13:26. | :13:36. | |
think you will be proven wrong. I think this dismissive attitude | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
towards victims... Would you ever say alleged victims in this case? | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
Yes, I would. They have not been proven to be victims yet. Bear with | :13:49. | :13:55. | |
me a second. I think calling alleged victims hysterical because of their | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
word used is absolutely pathetic. It diminishes the experience. It | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
diminishes the experience of abuse that causes this to happen. People | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
did not come forward about Jimmy Savile and Lord Janner sooner | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
because they were repeatedly told that their experiences were not | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
abuse, over and again. We have to be very careful about how we talk to | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
abuse victims about what they have experienced. | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
Joshua, what about the idea of the establishment closing ranks on this | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
one, institutions, the sustainability, politicians all | :14:31. | :14:33. | |
along the way, and protecting their own? If that were true that would be | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
bad, and I want to know whether it is true or not. The fact is because | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
we've wasted the past ten months since the director of public | :14:44. | :14:46. | |
prosecutions said there should be no prosecution, we don't yet have the | :14:47. | :14:54. | |
report of a retired judge called Sir Richard Henriques, which will tell | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
us what went wrong with the Crown Prosecution Service and what went | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
wrong with the police investigation. It was the police and the Crown | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
Prosecution Service that decided between them effectively that Janner | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
wasn't going to be prosecuted. I'm not aware of any establishment | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
cover-up. I'm not sure how that could be done. And what about hat | :15:14. | :15:21. | |
about those wrongly accused - Field Marshal Bramall, Sir Leon Brittan | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
and Sir Edward Heath. All were accused by anonymous people of child | :15:26. | :15:28. | |
abuse. The police investigate and find there's nothing to it. | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
Eventually, if the alleged defendants, potential defendants, | :15:34. | :15:36. | |
are still alive they get around to telling them and the rest of us. | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
Peter? If we don't expose the truth, if we don't put a spotlight on | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
what's gone wrong in the past. And I hear what Joshua is saying about | :15:47. | :15:52. | |
people being accused and not having evidence against them. We were | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
talking earlier about the fact that we are going spend ?30,000 billion | :15:56. | :16:03. | |
on Trident, or ?30,000... That was before we came on air, just for | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
people watching. My vote would be that we divert some of that wasted | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
money into better social services is, into the police, into all sorts | :16:13. | :16:15. | |
of ways of protecting our children. APPLAUSE. This idea then that | :16:16. | :16:23. | |
there's a certain momentum for this at the moment, Matthew, a certain | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
climate. Do you think we are living in different times to an extent? | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
Well, I do think there is, and I think that social media probably has | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
a lot to do with it. The idea that there's some sort of conspiracy to | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
protect paedophiles has been given a lot of mileage by social media and | :16:40. | :16:46. | |
certain websites who seem to make a great deal of it. I think it is very | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
dangerous, because it does lead to the sort of, if I may say so Peter, | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
rather over the top language, talking about Holocaust of billions | :16:56. | :17:02. | |
and people being protected by shadowy cabals of establishment | :17:03. | :17:05. | |
figures, and I think it is something we've got to be careful about. I | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
quite agree with Dawn we need to be very careful about the sort of | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
language we use. Peter? I'm never hysterical about it. Cyril Smith is | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
an example, Cyril Smith MP... He had a lot of friends around him who | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
protected him, that's incontrovertible. The police were | :17:27. | :17:29. | |
going to arrest that man years ago and Special Branch, under the orders | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
of their political Masters, stepped in and prevented him from being | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
apprehended. Therefore he could carry on raping children. And Savile | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
had a lot of friends in high places didn't he. The fact that somebody | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
has friends in high place doesn't mean that those friends in high | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
places are protecting them. I spend quite a lot of my time not just | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
defending people accused of crimes against children but prosecuting | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
people with crimes against children. Very quite a lot of contact with the | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
police and CPS. Not once has anyone in the police or CPS ever, over the | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
many years I've been involved in this sort of thing, suggesting to | :18:13. | :18:15. | |
me, we should go soft on a particular individual because he's | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
friendly with a Freemason or with a senior politician. It's, in my | :18:20. | :18:26. | |
experience, for what it's worth, and it doesn't prove anything, it is | :18:27. | :18:29. | |
complete nonsense. Do you think some people are seriously in it for the | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
money? I've no doubt some are in it for the money. I've no doubt that | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
the majority are not. Certainly money plays a part with some people. | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
Dawn? I find that quite offensive. There are much easier ways to make | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
money from the criminal justice system. I've done some work on cash | :18:46. | :18:53. | |
for crash scheme where is you drive into a car. Car. But coming forward | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
and talking about your abuse experiences, alleged or otherwise, | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
and pinpointing one individual seems a high-risk strategy. I think a lot | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
of people are worried there's a witch-hunt around this, when what I | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
see is people and our society accepting that child abuse has been | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
condoned tacitly for decades and people are finally beginning to | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
understand what happened and it wasn't OK and we shouldn't stand for | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
this. The standards have changed. Thank you very much indeed for your | :19:26. | :19:28. | |
thoughts on that particular debate. APPLAUSE. | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
If you have something to say about that debate, | :19:33. | :19:34. | |
log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, and follow the link to where you can | :19:35. | :19:37. | |
We're also debating live this morning from South London: Can | :19:38. | :19:43. | |
And later, does social media reveal men's hatred for women? | :19:44. | :19:50. | |
I guarantee there'll be strong feelings on both sides of that | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
debate from people who've been involved in some very interesting | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
exchanges on social media. So get tweeting or emailing on those | :19:59. | :20:01. | |
topics now or send us any other ideas or thoughts you may | :20:02. | :20:04. | |
have about the show. Organised by the Bahai faith, | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
its aim is to recognise "the oneness of humankind through the belief | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
that religion must be Clearly they're not regular viewers | :20:13. | :20:15. | |
of The Big Questions! Fidelma, hello. Hi. Your message, | :20:16. | :20:35. | |
many people will think your message is absolutely inspiring. This is the | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
Bahai religion. You were a Catholic. Yes. But came a Bahai, from Northern | :20:40. | :20:47. | |
Ireland. I'm sure people still say, are you a Protestant Bahai or a | :20:48. | :20:54. | |
Catholic Bahai... I still get that! LAUGHTER. Tell us about the truth. | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
From the Bahai perspective, yes, the idea of religion as one force is | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
very much fundamental to Bahai belief. It is the understanding that | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
all religion are like chanters of one book. There's a progressive | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
nature to religion. Religions come at different time, or the founders | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
of different religions come at different times in the world. Time | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
appropriate. Absolutely, to bring out the best potential of human | :21:24. | :21:26. | |
beings to be the best they can be and to serve the world. So this idea | :21:27. | :21:34. | |
of Bahai... Who? The founder of the Bahai faith, over 100 years ago, | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
said religions are like the rays of one sun and they proceed from the | :21:40. | :21:46. | |
same sun source. All religions? All the world's great religions or the | :21:47. | :21:49. | |
divine teachers come from one source. So Adam, Abraham, Moses, | :21:50. | :21:56. | |
Jesus, Mohammed, Krishna, sorry if I've left anyone out. That's a good | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
list. That's what you are saying. Yes, that all of these divine | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
educators come from the same one source, with the same spiritual | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
messages. What changes are the social teachings throughout the | :22:10. | :22:12. | |
ages. And they are applied in different ways to accommodate the | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
different and respond to the different needs of humanity that is | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
changing down through the ages. Oh, so you see, many people will love | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
that idea. You are a director of Reform. Yes. What a wonderful | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
thought, many people might not believe it but for those who do you | :22:33. | :22:40. | |
go to Heaven, and it is Buddhist, is Buddhist, Protestant, Catholics, | :22:41. | :22:42. | |
Sunni, Shia - you name it, they are, there and not in different rooms, | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
altogether. Altogether. Is that not a wonderful thought? It is a | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
wonderful idea. A lovely thought. Isn't it beautiful? But I think it | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
doesn't go to the heart of the differences between the different | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
teachings of all those people, and it really contradicts the heart of | :23:01. | :23:03. | |
Christianity. And that's one of the problems. The only way is to be | :23:04. | :23:11. | |
through Christ? Jesus says, I am the way, the truth and the light, and | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
no-one comes to the Father except through me. Other faiths don't | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
believe fundamentally that we are fundamentally good people and we can | :23:23. | :23:28. | |
get better. Original sin. So the only way to get into the celestial | :23:29. | :23:35. | |
realm is through Christ? Only through Jesus Christ on the cross. | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
So Muslims, Buddhists, they have had it? Whether we have faith, we need | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
Jesus to die for us. Christians might be wrong, but Christians can't | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
be right and everyone else be right. That just doesn't work. We could be | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
wrong. Christ maybe didn't need to die on the cross. That's quite | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
possible. Okay, you accept you might be wrong? Yes, we have faith. I've | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
got a faith you can join, the Bahai faith over there. I'm convinced by | :24:07. | :24:18. | |
the discussion we've just had. Reverend Peter Owen Jones, you've | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
looked at this stuff. Do you think that all favourites are barking up | :24:22. | :24:27. | |
the same tree, or are they just barking? What do you think? Do you | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
go with the Bahai or with Suzi? I think all faiths are asking the same | :24:34. | :24:40. | |
questions. There we are. And, those are important questions. I feel that | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
as part of the freedom of being a human being we need to be free to | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
ask those questions. What it is to love, what it is to seek justice, | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
what it is to experience grace, what it is to experience gratitude. These | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
are very important human questions. This is about human stuff. I think | :25:01. | :25:07. | |
where it starts to unravel and turn ugly is where one faith believes | :25:08. | :25:16. | |
that it has the right to impose that view on others in anyway that it | :25:17. | :25:25. | |
seeks. I learnt over time that the religions that I felt comfortable | :25:26. | :25:32. | |
with were ones that were really expressing love in action. Yes! | :25:33. | :25:40. | |
APPLAUSE. And those... The religions that were trying to convert me to | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
their perspective, at the expense of everything else, that I wasn't to | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
look left, I wasn't to look left, I was to concentrate on that and that | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
alone. At that point I became very uncomfortable. So it was those with | :25:56. | :26:02. | |
certainty? Yes, those with certainty can turn toxic very quickly | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
settlement. Is it one God? Thoughts from the audience, the gentleman in | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
the stripy shirt. Couldn't the one sun from which those rays are | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
emanating be humanity other than humanity? And couldn't the | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
narratives pull people culturally together but between cultures apart | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
be the problem rather than the solution? Good morning to you. I'm | :26:27. | :26:33. | |
from London Black Atheists. We don't believe in religion. We think | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
religion makes a load of claims for itself which are absolutely false | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
and none of them have ever been proven to be true. There is no doubt | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
at all that if you were to follow religions you would lose your way | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
rather than finding your way. You would find lies instead of truth, | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
and you would probably die instead of being led to life. | :26:55. | :27:03. | |
APPLAUSE. OK. The great teachers, Krishna, Mohammed and Jesus and | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
Dawkins... LAUGHTER ITE | :27:09. | :27:10. | |
LAUGHTER They are all - I love Richie, a great guest on the | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
programme. I just had a thought, a rare thing but I did, Fidelma, which | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
is that you talk about all the great teachers that have been sent. I gave | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
that list of the great teachers through time, but then I thought, | :27:26. | :27:31. | |
what about Joseph Smith, who for example from the Mormon religion, | :27:32. | :27:37. | |
who met the angel Moroni thrice and was given gold plates? Would he | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
qualify as someone who was sent? Not... No, we wouldn't see Joseph | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
Smith... You are drawing a line aren't you? | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
APPLAUSE But we would say he was an inspired person but not as a | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
manifestation of God. How can you tell? I guess it is where Bahais say | :27:57. | :28:05. | |
investigate truth for yourself. Look at it with a searchingy with a | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
scientific approach. Peter said the thing that puts people off religion | :28:10. | :28:16. | |
is when the dogma and teachings are shoved down your throat. So was | :28:17. | :28:24. | |
Bahai the last prophet. You know the hand game like that, as to who is | :28:25. | :28:30. | |
the last prophet? The latest but not the last in this progressive line. | :28:31. | :28:36. | |
Just like educators in a school... Kate Smurthwaite, quickly. Want to | :28:37. | :28:43. | |
take issue with one thing that you say, Fidelma, religion as a | :28:44. | :28:45. | |
progressive force. There are a handful of occasions, literally a | :28:46. | :28:51. | |
handful when religion historically has done something progressive. But | :28:52. | :28:57. | |
there are overwhelming examples where religion has been a force | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
against progressiveness. There's a lot of homophobia out there and it | :29:03. | :29:10. | |
is religiously motivated. And women's rights, driven by religion. | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
What Suzi says is right. If you look at these religions in detail they | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
are not all compatible. It is impossible to sit there and say, we | :29:19. | :29:26. | |
all believe in the same God, but you practice in a way that's gender | :29:27. | :29:33. | |
apartheid, and homophobia. Even if there is one true God, or what we've | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
seen is the same kind of delusions occurring in lots of different | :29:38. | :29:40. | |
places around the world, and we should accept that they are | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
delusions and move on in a humanist way and with progressive social | :29:45. | :29:46. | |
values. APPLAUSE. | :29:47. | :29:54. | |
All those great teachers, I will not ask you about Hubbard, we would not | :29:55. | :30:00. | |
include him! The Muslim Council of Britain. You converted from | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
Christianity to Islam. Why do you believe Islam is right, Ameena | :30:05. | :30:12. | |
Blake? Is it the true religion? It is to me. I was brought up as a | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
Christian and I loved the teachings of the Bible but I am also a | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
pragmatist and I wanted things to be proved to me before I followed them | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
and so I was looking for the truth. I had a friend who was Muslim and | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
she told me about the Koran and I was looking to it, and there are so | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
many scientific facts in the Koran which was written 1400 years ago by | :30:33. | :30:42. | |
an illiterate guy in the desert. I could not deny it was the truth. | :30:43. | :30:45. | |
They are things that he could not have known. A lot of it was written | :30:46. | :30:48. | |
before by the ancient Greeks. But he might not have heard that. He could | :30:49. | :30:54. | |
not know that. Merchant roots? Even if that was the case, there is no | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
way he would have had the chance to have access to it. Many of the | :31:00. | :31:10. | |
scientific things in the Koran are only now being found to be true. | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
They thought the world was flat, laid out like a carpet. They say it | :31:15. | :31:20. | |
is X-shaped, which is scientifically true. The Western scholars would say | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
the world is flat and if you go far enough, you fall off the edge. What | :31:26. | :31:31. | |
is the clincher for you for being a Muslim? I can ask any question of | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
Islam and it will give me a logical and scientifically proven answer. | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
Very much in this debate, the essence of faith, I think personally | :31:41. | :31:48. | |
Islam is correct. Other people will debate that with me and disagree | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
with me, and that is the beauty of religion. We must absolutely be | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
tolerant of other religions or non- religions. We talk about religion | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
but we forget about people's other beliefs, if they are capitalist or | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
whatever. But believes have changed with science and most modern | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
religions accept science, evolution, these things, because they really | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
have no choice, have they? Absolutely. If you look back at | :32:17. | :32:23. | |
Darwin, for example, there was a massive clash between his theories | :32:24. | :32:26. | |
and religion at the time. Many people got on board with it. | :32:27. | :32:32. | |
Absolutely. Because Darwin's theory contradicted what the Bible was | :32:33. | :32:35. | |
saying, people were forced into account, one side or the other, not | :32:36. | :32:41. | |
both. People felt very divided. It is not the case now. Kate, do you | :32:42. | :32:47. | |
want to come back here? First of all, this idea that something in the | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
Koran somehow has been proven by science, firstly it is just not | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
true. There are versus that contradict other parts of the Koran. | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
It says you cannot mix salt water with freshwater. You can disprove | :33:02. | :33:04. | |
that in your home with a couple of glasses and a bowl. It is very | :33:05. | :33:07. | |
straightforward to demonstrate that a lot of what is in the Koran is | :33:08. | :33:13. | |
nonsense. This same must apply to every other religious text out | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
there. There is not one that makes any sense. That is why the vast | :33:18. | :33:20. | |
majority of people who study sciences and things like that are | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
atheists like myself. When we look at the facts, well, there is a whole | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
other question about what people are getting out of religion and what | :33:31. | :33:33. | |
they are looking for. Many scientists are people of faith so it | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
is compatible. There are very few that follow specific religious | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
books. There are some out there who think... Some of the great | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
evolutionary biologists in the world are Christians, people like Ken | :33:48. | :33:53. | |
Miller. That is a cognitive dissonance. I have been worrying | :33:54. | :33:56. | |
about this since you said the Koran was write about the shape of the | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
earth. What sort of egg is shaped like the earth? The earth is not | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
precisely round. Scientists have realised... I have never seen an egg | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
that is more or less a globe but slightly flattered at either end. | :34:15. | :34:20. | |
Peter. If you pick up a scientific journal from the 1840s, you are | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
going to find parts of it exceedingly humorous. To modernise. | :34:25. | :34:36. | |
To suggest that science and the facts are the way we need to go | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
really negates the fact that this is something that is continually moving | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
and evolving. You and I have no right to the truth. We have a right | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
to explore the truth. Then you're completely misunderstanding the | :34:51. | :34:53. | |
scientific method. It is not believing in science. We heard | :34:54. | :34:56. | |
atheism being referred to as a belief. It is not. How can it be a | :34:57. | :35:04. | |
belief? Exactly. If somebody can demonstrate to me there is a God | :35:05. | :35:06. | |
that I will be religious tomorrow but if you look at the proof that | :35:07. | :35:10. | |
the facts, science is not about saying I believe this because I | :35:11. | :35:29. | |
want to. Science has a method. An experiment, repeatable, we | :35:30. | :35:32. | |
demonstrate something, we have a hypothesis, we prove it, and we keep | :35:33. | :35:35. | |
going and tested and look for new evidence. What I think changes as I | :35:36. | :35:37. | |
see evidence. Joshua. You cannot prove the existence of God. The | :35:38. | :35:40. | |
whole point about God is faith. Exactly. He doesn't exist. In nine | :35:41. | :35:42. | |
years of this programme, believe it or not, we have debated whether God | :35:43. | :35:48. | |
exists or not! I want to take it back, if I may, to the fact that all | :35:49. | :35:57. | |
the people who have been sent with divines, Abraham, Jesus, Mohammed, | :35:58. | :36:00. | |
Joshua, your good self this morning! All men. All men, you say? If I | :36:01. | :36:12. | |
could come in on this idea? Where are the women? Let me step back for | :36:13. | :36:18. | |
a moment and this question of God. One of the understandings that I | :36:19. | :36:24. | |
have is that God is noble but sacred figures are sent into the world for | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
us to look into their lives in the scientific and rigorous way and see | :36:29. | :36:34. | |
if the teachings make sense and make me and the world better. That is a | :36:35. | :36:40. | |
sanity check for religion, actually. I think that is where Christianity | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
is so different. To say that God is unknowable is to deny that Jesus | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
Christ came to earth, the son of God, to reveal himself to us. We can | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
know God because Jesus Christ was God. I agree that is an | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
extraordinary claim. Jesus Christ was God. We cannot say that we can | :36:58. | :37:05. | |
search out... Not according to Ameena Blake. Mohammed very plainly | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
said this is nonsense. This is the difficulty of saying that all | :37:12. | :37:13. | |
religions are the same. They cannot all be right. Peter, is it possible | :37:14. | :37:21. | |
to get rid of the rituals, the beliefs, then doctrines, the | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
encumbrances, forget it all, it is all man made, there is one God and | :37:25. | :37:30. | |
it is the same God, unless you believe in lots of gods, polytheism? | :37:31. | :37:38. | |
Is it difficult to cut through all that stuff? I think when we are | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
hanging onto dear life, to Christ, to Mohammed, to Baha'u'llah, or | :37:43. | :37:50. | |
indeed to the founder of the Bahai fake, I think we are in trouble of | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
not being able to see what is around us. I think each human being has the | :37:55. | :38:03. | |
capacity to experience the great mystery of existence. The great | :38:04. | :38:10. | |
mystery of love. What I am seeing currently around the planet is the | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
development of human consciousness, the development of building a world | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
of peace is actually being held back by many of our ancient belief | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
systems. I think what I am interested in is saying, have we | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
reached a point now where have we drunk from these cups as far as we | :38:28. | :38:35. | |
can? If we are going to have world Interfaith day, what does that mean? | :38:36. | :38:41. | |
As the time now come for all religions to renounce violence? | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
Should that be on the table? I don't know who sent you! A lot of people | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
will like the cut of your jib. Thank you very much for your | :38:52. | :39:03. | |
contributions. You can join in all of the morning's debates by logging | :39:04. | :39:06. | |
on and following the link to the online discussion. | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq. | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
Tell us what you think about our last Big Question too. | :39:17. | :39:19. | |
Does social media reveal men's hatred for women? | :39:20. | :39:21. | |
And if you'd like to be in the audience at a future | :39:22. | :39:24. | |
We're in Edinburgh next week, Bradford on 31st January, | :39:25. | :39:27. | |
45 years ago, in that feminist primer, The Female Eunuch, | :39:28. | :39:37. | |
still worth reading, Germaine Greer argued that women | :39:38. | :39:39. | |
The advent of social media sites, like Twitter and Facebook, | :39:40. | :39:48. | |
has displayed some men's views of some women | :39:49. | :39:50. | |
And a lot of it is very nasty indeed, with rape threats and death | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
threats made even against a woman whose only crime was to support | :39:56. | :39:57. | |
Does social media reveal men's hatred for women? | :39:58. | :40:03. | |
Kate, you made a comment on this programme last time, and I can't | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
even remember what it was, but as ever it was interesting and | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
controversial and stimulating. It was a tiny little comment. What was | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
it? It was about the way somebody was being addressed. Let's do this. | :40:20. | :40:26. | |
What happened to you? Does social media reveal men's hatred? Of | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
course. We have known these opinions are out there and social media takes | :40:32. | :40:34. | |
these opinions from around the world but it does much more than that as | :40:35. | :40:38. | |
well. It allows people to access you when you should be safe in your | :40:39. | :40:43. | |
home. Suddenly, once upon a time, if there were 100 people gathered | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
outside your house shouting at you, you would have called the police and | :40:48. | :40:50. | |
it would have been dealt with, but because of social media, people from | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
all over the world, people you would otherwise not go near, are able to | :40:55. | :41:05. | |
get to you. What was it like for you? I was on this show about a year | :41:06. | :41:13. | |
ago. We were debating gender equality with Milo. In 48 hours I | :41:14. | :41:20. | |
received 165 pages of media abuse including rape and death threats and | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
unpleasant comments about my appearance. Because of what you said | :41:25. | :41:33. | |
about Milo? Many were from Milo and people encouraged him and retweeted | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
him. My head Photoshopped onto unattractive bodies, photographs of | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
me manipulated to look horrible and whatever. I am not the first and | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
last person to be on the receiving end of this kind of onslaught. From | :41:47. | :41:53. | |
him? From Milo, from a group of people that he supports and | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
encourages. If I was in that situation and supporters of mine did | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
this kind of thing, I would of course told them it was not cool, | :42:02. | :42:08. | |
not OK. Instead, egged on by a community of deep-rooted | :42:09. | :42:10. | |
misogynists, this is the world we now live in. It is not just me. Lots | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
of women have been affected by this, including teenagers, women from all | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
around the world. Milo? What have you turned into? Such a nice young | :42:21. | :42:30. | |
man. It is hard to believe. If you're of the furious. The | :42:31. | :42:37. | |
Major-General of misogyny. You cannot support those comments? Of | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
course not. Kate doesn't understand how frameworks, but I do. I am not | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
particularly interested in a professional provocative who goes | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
out and says deliberately outrageous things, like I do, and then turns | :42:52. | :42:55. | |
round and plays a victim when she does not like ridicule and | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
criticism. Let me finish. I let you finish, so stop. After she lost the | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
debate, as feminists very often do these days, she turned round and did | :43:07. | :43:12. | |
what feminists always do, which is confected a sob story. Kate, like | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
me, it is a professional but only one of us plays the victim | :43:17. | :43:23. | |
afterwards. Going back to the question, it is interesting that it | :43:24. | :43:26. | |
is being framed like this at all. The global data from 2014 shows that | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
men get more abuse online than women. It is men that get more death | :43:31. | :43:36. | |
threats and violence threats. The only thing women beat men at and | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
this is pure global data and this is the gold standard of research, the | :43:42. | :43:44. | |
only thing women beat men at is cyberstalking and most of the people | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
doing the stalking are other women. Social media does not show that men | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
hate women, it shows that women hate everyone. Let me finish this point. | :43:54. | :44:02. | |
That is an outrageous thing to say. I will qualify it and explain what I | :44:03. | :44:08. | |
mean. I am going to get to you, don't worry. Explained to my | :44:09. | :44:15. | |
daughter is what you have just said. Take the camera off him. It is | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
outrageous. Freedom of speech. Doesn't mean it is not outrageous. | :44:21. | :44:27. | |
Not only are men the primary victims but women are the primary | :44:28. | :44:33. | |
perpetrators. Let him finish. Why should we let him finish? How much | :44:34. | :44:40. | |
time is he getting? Connie. This man went on Twitter recently and said he | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
wanted people assassinated. You are a liar. You lied about Tim Hunt and | :44:46. | :44:53. | |
now you are lying about me. Carney. Connie! You are liar. If I were to | :44:54. | :44:59. | |
walk out of the studio now, mayhem would ensue. I would come with you | :45:00. | :45:05. | |
if you left! You are giving airtime to this. Wait a minute! I want | :45:06. | :45:14. | |
silence! I want us all to enjoy just a little ten second window of | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
silence. Then we can all calm down. No talking for ten seconds. | :45:20. | :45:26. | |
Kate, what were you going to say? What I was going to say, I don't | :45:27. | :45:32. | |
want this to be a debate about one individual. It is a shame that | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
somebody gives airtime to somebody whose views and completely horrific | :45:38. | :45:40. | |
statements have been so widely seen... But it is good to challenge | :45:41. | :45:46. | |
them. But the point is there's a huge, huge weight, and young women | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
who speak up online are facing a huge backlash. It is very | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
frightening. I'm often asked to go into schools. Teachers want me to go | :45:55. | :46:01. | |
in and encourage young women to speak up and express myself. I don't | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
think young women are stupid. I don't think when they don't express | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
themselves they are bashful and nervous and don't know what to say. | :46:10. | :46:16. | |
They know what social media is like. What a depressing view of young | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
women. When we want people to speak out and feel comfortable about | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
expressing themselves, make the internet a place where they can do | :46:25. | :46:31. | |
so. Bring in new laws to deal with this things. Connie, I will come to | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
you in a minute. We need to be trained how to deal with this, | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
training on when to act and when not to act, to make sure that the worst | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
things, the rape and the death threats, the horrific harassment and | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
abuse is dealt. I think when we see a few high profile individuals, | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
perhaps some in this studio, locked up, it will be time for other people | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
to back off, and I very much look forward to that day. Milo,ly come to | :46:58. | :47:03. | |
you, and Connie in a second. We'll have... Someone has to reveal how | :47:04. | :47:11. | |
similar these two arguments are. What both Milo and Kate are saying | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
is people can be made to feel victimised and nervous and scared of | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
the internet, whether that's men or women. It is a pathetic view of how | :47:21. | :47:27. | |
people deal with insults and words. Most people, especially when they | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
receive this kind of threat. I'm talking about rape and death | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
threats. And when they receive this on Twitter they block or ignore. | :47:38. | :47:43. | |
Please, Kate. This is what happens. Middle class women decide they want | :47:44. | :47:49. | |
to take on the plight of and that women are victimised and can't | :47:50. | :47:55. | |
handle the internet. It is disgusting and sexist to say women | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
can't handle the internet. The women should be able to experience | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
everything about public life. We fought for that throughout history | :48:06. | :48:09. | |
and she wants to shut us away from it. We are going to hear Connie's | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
story and then I will get Milo to respond. Please, no more about these | :48:16. | :48:25. | |
egomaniacs. That's ideally how it is going be structured. Connie. We | :48:26. | :48:32. | |
heard reference to him and the whole situation, the saga there from Milo | :48:33. | :48:38. | |
Yiannopoulos. Professor Tim Hunt made a not very funny off-taste | :48:39. | :48:45. | |
joke, in a lecture hall, a room in South Korea. Some would say it | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
wasn't hugely offensive. Got worldwide attention, nothing to do | :48:51. | :48:53. | |
with you but he lost his job. You had drawn people's attention to it. | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
The reaction to your reaction was extraordinary. What have you gone | :48:58. | :49:02. | |
through? So this has been really dreadful. It is exhibited here by | :49:03. | :49:09. | |
the way that Milo felt he could shout abuse across the studio at me. | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
What's interesting about this is that it is not about how people use | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
the Twitter. It's about people trying to maintain a political | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
status quo. So a lot of what goes on, particular people in America | :49:24. | :49:29. | |
like Rush Limbaugh who've a right-wing ideology. They don't want | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
to hear from women, with don't want to hear from people of other | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
colours, or people with contrasting conservative view. These people are | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
very loud and these people are very determined to shut a lot of people | :49:44. | :49:50. | |
up. So I report something, I'm a journalist, can I report things, and | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
in the end in order to protect some stupid comment, then I have to be | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
discredited. I don't have to be discredited. I did nothing wrong. | :50:00. | :50:03. | |
I'm not a liar. I don't even have to defend myself. As a journalist I can | :50:04. | :50:07. | |
put a story out there. It was true... What abuse did you have | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
online? I didn't just have abuse online. I had lots of letters sent | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
to my office that were very racist. People would phone me up and scream | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
really racist things. They would send me pictures of monkeys hanging | :50:22. | :50:27. | |
in trees, saying, go back to your hut, go back to your jungle, you're | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
not welcome here. It is like we're back 50 years in the racial economy | :50:33. | :50:39. | |
of this country. People are really crude and it is very sad for people | :50:40. | :50:44. | |
like me who've been here and you are trying to make things different for | :50:45. | :50:46. | |
the next generation and there is no change. This country is just as | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
racist, just as white male privileged as it has always been. | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
APPLAUSE. Some people. These are some people. These are people who | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
would never say it to your face. They are keyboard warriors. They | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
never say it to your face. They won't stand up and own their | :51:07. | :51:12. | |
statements. It is a minority of men. It is not about hatred. It is | :51:13. | :51:18. | |
hundreds of thousands of men, if you are trying to... Milo, I said we | :51:19. | :51:26. | |
would come to Milo. You did this poll online. Yes. What would you | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
rather your child had, feminism or cancer? Yep, and 22,000 people and | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
people voted in favour of cancer. What the statistics show us is that | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
in just two years the number of women who identify as a feminist in | :51:41. | :51:47. | |
the US has gone from 28 do 15%. The number of women who identify as | :51:48. | :51:54. | |
feminist to an all time low of 7%. Professional provocateurs who play | :51:55. | :51:58. | |
the victim after the fact and professors of science journalism who | :51:59. | :52:11. | |
deliberately misrepresent statement by Nobel prize-winning... The daily | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
buzz, the BBC, all of them have had to issue corrections over statements | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
you made. You are a liar. People can look this up. A professor of science | :52:21. | :52:26. | |
journalism who fabricated her CV as well. We have to get a response to | :52:27. | :52:35. | |
that. I'm going to make specific accusations she can respond to. You | :52:36. | :52:41. | |
are talking about people throwing accusations... People aren't | :52:42. | :52:50. | |
interested in what you three... This poll, if you are an intellectual | :52:51. | :52:56. | |
person or had half a brain, you would laugh at such rubbish. | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
APPLAUSE. This is the whole thing about Twitter or the internet. If | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
you are a political person, and journalists are political people, | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
you put out an opinion there. I often put out opinions that people | :53:09. | :53:11. | |
find abhorrent and disgusting because they don't agree with me. | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
The emotional overreaction to that comes in the form of you're fat, | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
you're this, all horrible stuff. Yes it is unpleasant. But the point | :53:20. | :53:25. | |
is... But a monkey hang from a tree? I'm not condoning this. But what do | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
we ask? ALL TALK AT ONCE | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
Please! Connie, with you in a second. | :53:35. | :53:34. | |
ALL TALK AT ONCE Let's hear the however. However... I | :53:35. | :54:06. | |
am not responsible for what other people put on Twitter. 150,000 | :54:07. | :54:13. | |
people follow me on Twitter, 50,000 on YouTube, and on Facebook. Yet I'm | :54:14. | :54:21. | |
not responsible for a tiny minority of idiots say. I was accused of | :54:22. | :54:27. | |
calling for someone's assassination. These are outright galling lies from | :54:28. | :54:31. | |
people with a history of dishonesty. It is all over the web. Yes, | :54:32. | :54:40. | |
people with a history of dishonesty. It is all over the web. -- yes, your | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
fabricated CV is online as well. You lied about Tim Hunt. You should be | :54:46. | :54:53. | |
ashamed of yourself. Should we let Connie respond to that? He's | :54:54. | :54:59. | |
pathetic. Connie? Milo just called for somebody to be assassinated. | :55:00. | :55:02. | |
Twitter essentially struck him off. You are saying he didn't? No, I | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
didn't. What was the wording of the tweet? Actually we don't need to | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
believe everything he is saying. What did it say? Milo, let's hear | :55:13. | :55:22. | |
Connie. He is a particular kind of person that makes his money and his | :55:23. | :55:29. | |
fortune on Twitter. And he wants to develop his public persona on | :55:30. | :55:32. | |
Twitter. There's lots of people like him around. How did he call for | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
someone's assassination? In a tweet, because somebody challenged him. | :55:38. | :55:45. | |
What was the wording? As a result Twitter has unverified him, | :55:46. | :55:48. | |
deverified him. Not true. The you wrote about it yourself, Milo. | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
Absolute nonsense. You need to address the allegations. This is the | :55:53. | :55:56. | |
kind of person that had tried to make a fortune and their fame on | :55:57. | :56:02. | |
Twitter, because they are desperate. Why do we care? My colleague in | :56:03. | :56:11. | |
America, a very, very fine commentator on the New York Times. | :56:12. | :56:15. | |
He wrote something recently and as a result he got a death threat. He | :56:16. | :56:19. | |
said to Twitter, isn't it time you take some of these people off | :56:20. | :56:23. | |
Twitter? And Twitter said, just contact the police if somebody | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
shoots you. This person threatened to shoot him on Twitter. People like | :56:28. | :56:32. | |
Milo are those kind of people. They need to be taken off and they need | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
to be taken off... APPLAUSE. Please make it quick. | :56:38. | :56:44. | |
Ladies over here who suffered this abuse and all other women and men, | :56:45. | :56:52. | |
saying just block them or delete them or ignore it. They've been | :56:53. | :56:55. | |
abused. They need to be held accountable for that. | :56:56. | :57:00. | |
APPLAUSE. They are just words? Social media is just a Petri dish of | :57:01. | :57:04. | |
the entirety of society really. But I have to say that the vacuous | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
person like this is not representative of men on social | :57:10. | :57:11. | |
media. APPLAUSE. | :57:12. | :57:18. | |
CHEERING. Milo, you are a credentialist. Credentialist or | :57:19. | :57:24. | |
egomaniac? You defend his right to be a controversialist. I defend | :57:25. | :57:29. | |
people's right to be anything. That's the distinction, that I think | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
you should be able to say the most abhorrent, the most awful things, | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
because words are words. Especially on Twitter. The only time I would | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
ever be afraid of a man or intimidate me was if he was | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
threatening my life physically. That can't happen on Twitter because it | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
is just words. The amount of stuff you get, death threats, evil stuff. | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
Block them. Are you a girl or a woman? You have 40 seconds to | :57:55. | :58:06. | |
respond Milo. Very straightforward. Let's not make it about me. You've | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
got lying feminists throwing accusations. Who cares? The fact is | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
that the research does not support the premise of this question, or | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
support them. It doesn't support any of it's stuff you've said. You said | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
lying feminist. Internet abuse is a real thing. It silences women's | :58:26. | :58:29. | |
voices and makes women frighted to speak out. There are young home loo | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
have committed suicide because of internet abuse and we have people | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
here who not only support it but do it themselves. | :58:39. | :58:44. | |
APPLAUSE. No! Thanks for watching. See you next week. Tweet away. | :58:45. | :58:53. | |
It all started with the discovery of one enormous thigh bone. | :58:54. | :59:08. | |
It's like a paleontological crime scene. | :59:09. | :59:10. | |
Join Sir David Attenborough on the ultimate detective journey... | :59:11. | :59:16. | |
the biggest animal to ever walk the Earth. | :59:17. | :59:22. |