Episode 2 The Big Questions


Episode 2

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Today on The Big Questions: Dead men's crimes.

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And the battle of the sexes on social media.

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Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions.

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Today we're live from Harris Academy in Peckham.

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Welcome, everyone, to The Big Questions.

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On Friday, an Old Bailey judge brought to an end any criminal

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proceedings against Lord Janner, who died in December.

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Lord Janner suffered from advanced Alzheimer's disease and was declared

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unfit to stand trial for 22 counts of sexual abuse against boys,

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said to be committed from the 1960s onwards.

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But there was to be a trial of the facts,

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to be held in April, where a jury would have decided

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if the allegations were true or false.

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Friday's decision means this will not go ahead.

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And, of course, civil claims against Lord Janner's estate

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for damages caused by the alleged crimes can and will continue.

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Matthew, criminal barrister and blogger, good morning to you. The

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trial of the facts has not gone ahead, so there will be no justice

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in a technical sense. Many of the victims, the alleged victims as you

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would say, will feel there has been no justice in a moral sense as well.

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They have not had justice, they have not had their day in court. That

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could equally apply, thinking about it, too Lord Janner's family. They

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have not had the chance in court to clear his name. You can understand

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why people are so angry? I can understand why people are angry and

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upset about the fact the trial will not take place with these very

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serious allegations. It is not right to say there will be no justice.

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There will be no criminal justice because criminal law does not allow

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the trial of a dead person but there are other ways of achieving justice.

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There is an inquiry set up to look into allegations of this sort, and

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the judge, justice god art, has said she will look into the allegations

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against Lord Janner. There is talk of witnesses giving evidence on

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television if they want to do that, in public, and she will no doubt

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come to a conclusion. Why not a trial of the facts? You cannot have

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a criminal trial without a defendant to defend himself. Our justice

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system requires two sides, the prosecution and defence, to give

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evidence, to challenge each other's evidence, to cross-examine

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witnesses, and out of that we hope that the truth will emerge. And

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criminal verdict will emerge. That could five years at least. We don't

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know how long it will take to deal with the aspect of the inquiry that

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will be looking at Lord Janner. It may take a long time, it may be that

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the judge may be able to give some preliminary verdict, some finding in

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relation to that. It could be before five years. That will be a matter

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for Justice Goddard. Chilcott is not a great press it doesn't -- great

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precedent. You cannot have a trial of the facts if the defendant is

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dead? Of course not but it is very disappointing for the victims in

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this case that they will never have the evidence heard in court.

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Especially in the Lord Janner case, previously the Crown Prosecution

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Service looked at the evidence and said there was a case to answer.

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Political elites, the police, everybody around Lord Janner has a

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case to answer about why they protected him for so long and why he

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was not brought to justice while he was alive. These crimes date back to

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the 60s. Trial of the facts could have got to the heart of that web

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protection? Yes. The victims wanted to be heard back in the 90s and over

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and again Lord Janner was protected from ending up in court. Projected

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in Parliament by MPs who sought to prop up his reputation. The police

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did not deal with it properly and they have accepted that. It is

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really disappointing for the victims that they never will get their

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evidence heard in court. Joshua? First of all it is not true that the

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alleged victims will not get their evidence heard in court if they go

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ahead as they plan to with civil proceedings. Secondly, as Matthew

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said, there is an inquiry. There is great misunderstanding about the

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trial of the facts. It would not have established whether or not Lord

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Janner was guilty. He would not have been in a position to put his

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defence. A trial of the facts is simply a procedure to make sure that

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somebody is not sent to a mental hospital indefinitely when no crime

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has been committed. It does not amount to a poor person's trial,

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trial in somebody's absence, it just establishes whether an offence was

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committed. Victims want their day in court. Tough. The criminal justice

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system is not there for that. It is to decide whether a person accused

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of a crime is guilty with all the defences available to it. It is not

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a poor man's public inquiry and not a way of delivering closure to

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alleged victims. That is not what a criminal trial is about. Peter,

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could you give us an idea in the light of this decision, in the wake

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of this decision, how the alleged victims feel about this decision

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that there will be no trial of the facts? Understandably devastated but

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can I put it into context because that is so important? A couple of

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days ago, and bear with me because I can go round the houses but I will

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be quick, and a couple of days ago Tim Peake was looking down at our

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tiny little polluted planet, where other until planet earth foundation

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initiated a movement that eradicated something like 50% of child death

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through starvation, on the planet today, that little planet, this

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planet, there is in excess of 1 billion children being abused every

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year. 1 billion. That is a lot of people, including hundreds and

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hundreds of thousands of children in this country. Anybody who has been

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seen... We are talking about one individual. There was a chance in

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1991 for that case. I am getting to that. Let me finish. Anybody who has

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been part of that Holocaust, because that is what it is, holocaust

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against our children, of which Lord Janner stands accused, and 20 years

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ago the CPS said there was overwhelming evidence that he should

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have been put towards the courts, and I think Dawn has explained the

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cover-ups and why it has not happened. So there should have been

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a trial of the facts? They're absolutely should. It is like

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looking back at the Nazis. OK, most of them are dead, thank God, that

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they committed the most horrendous crimes against humanity. Just

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because they are dead does not mean we cannot learn lessons and expose

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the truth, because the truth is what sets us free, and I say that as a

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Christian man, and the truth is what will help protect our children in

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the future. Joshua? You cannot try dead people. We did not try Jimmy

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Savile, we don't try dead people. They cannot defend themselves and

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they cannot be punished. You can have inquiries, you can take money

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from the estate perhaps, but you cannot put a dead person on trial. I

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really wish you wouldn't bring money into it, Joshua. Because I work at

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NAPAC and we hear from survivors of abuse every year and money does not

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come into it at all. So why are they doing? Because sometimes it is the

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only option. If you hit people where it hurts, and institutions that is

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in the pocket, then they might change. They have not changed.

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Children are no less safe today than they were 40 years ago, which is

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criminal. People want to sue and very often people who do that do not

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do it for the money and very often they give it to charity and make

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good use for it, and then there could be change. We have got to have

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change. We have over a million children in this country every year

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suffering abuse and it is an utter criminal outrage. I think something

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that might help with this is the realisation of our defamation laws.

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I did a post after Jimmy Savile died that I was attacked for. I said that

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the Jay Z scandals will come out now and he was barely cold but I did it

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anyway. -- jersey scandals. Everybody in the press knew, but why

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did they not write about it? Because of ridiculous libel laws. If they

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were relaxed, things would improve and we could bring people to

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justice. I know everybody hates journalists, but they do

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occasionally do good work and they bring these cases to public

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attention. If we had done this with Jimmy Savile and Lord Janner, they

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would have been tried when alive and the way to achieve that is to relax

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stupid libel laws. As a survivor, Peter, I know very well the

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brilliant work you have done, brave people, survivors who have come

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forward, and it is not easy. What do you say to those people who have

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gone out on a limb and said, come on, why has it taken until now for

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those people to come forward and talk about Lord Janner? Why has it

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taken so long? We haven't got time for me to explain everything about

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why children do not speak out when they are being raped, tortured,

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abused. What we do know is that eventually many of them, thank God,

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are feeling able and having the strength to come forward and speak

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out now, because that is one of the most powerful ways we will protect

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our children in the future, to speak out. Alan? We have to be careful

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about using hysterical language around child abuse, such as

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Holocaust. To me it is a holocaust. It is just not true. The whole point

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about the Lord Janner case is not whether we are trying a dead man or

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not. I think it is perverse to try a dead man. It is more about having

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emotional group therapy for the alleged victims and complainants.

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Actually the media has called them victims throughout when because

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there has been no case they are not victims yet until somebody is proven

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guilty. Alleged victims, yes. Are using the law, doing a case, or

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having emotional group therapy which results in hysterical reactions? Any

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more opinions in the audience? Nobody at this stage wants to come

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forward but Kate does. There's a surprise! Fancy that! Unfortunately,

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when it comes to running trials on people that have already died, it

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always comes down to what are we trying to achieve? I think it is

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important that victims get a chance to talk about the experience and it

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is really important to learn lessons and I think in a case like Lord

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Janner's there are probably good grounds for saying that some of

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those people around protecting him should be brought to trial. They may

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still be alive and able to stand trial. But on that, I think we also

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need to talk about the fact there is a limited amount of money to be

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spent on doing these things and we have to make sure we prioritise

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things first. We have to take to trial first those people that might

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still be on the streets and still be a threat and risk. What price

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justice? We are doing a bad job of that. We are spending more on

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Operation Yewtree than protecting young people that might currently be

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at risk and we need to change that. The idea that there is a Kabbalah of

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people that protected Lord Janner is completely unproven. It is being

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accepted by everybody who has spoken so far in this room that there is

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some sort of secret conspiracy to protect him in Parliament and the

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police. It is not secret. And the CPS. It is completely unproven and

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it needs to be said that the inquiry that Justice Goddard is holding is

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to try and establish exactly whether there is any such thing at all or

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whether it is the product of a rather overexcited imagination. I go

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on record to say that I don't believe for a moment that there is

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some sort of conspiracy to protect Lord Janner. I think probably it

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will be shown to be nonsense. I might be wrong. I hope not. Dawn? I

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think you will be proven wrong. I think this dismissive attitude

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towards victims... Would you ever say alleged victims in this case?

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Yes, I would. They have not been proven to be victims yet. Bear with

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me a second. I think calling alleged victims hysterical because of their

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word used is absolutely pathetic. It diminishes the experience. It

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diminishes the experience of abuse that causes this to happen. People

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did not come forward about Jimmy Savile and Lord Janner sooner

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because they were repeatedly told that their experiences were not

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abuse, over and again. We have to be very careful about how we talk to

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abuse victims about what they have experienced.

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Joshua, what about the idea of the establishment closing ranks on this

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one, institutions, the sustainability, politicians all

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along the way, and protecting their own? If that were true that would be

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bad, and I want to know whether it is true or not. The fact is because

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we've wasted the past ten months since the director of public

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prosecutions said there should be no prosecution, we don't yet have the

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report of a retired judge called Sir Richard Henriques, which will tell

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us what went wrong with the Crown Prosecution Service and what went

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wrong with the police investigation. It was the police and the Crown

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Prosecution Service that decided between them effectively that Janner

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wasn't going to be prosecuted. I'm not aware of any establishment

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cover-up. I'm not sure how that could be done. And what about hat

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about those wrongly accused - Field Marshal Bramall, Sir Leon Brittan

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and Sir Edward Heath. All were accused by anonymous people of child

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abuse. The police investigate and find there's nothing to it.

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Eventually, if the alleged defendants, potential defendants,

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are still alive they get around to telling them and the rest of us.

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Peter? If we don't expose the truth, if we don't put a spotlight on

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what's gone wrong in the past. And I hear what Joshua is saying about

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people being accused and not having evidence against them. We were

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talking earlier about the fact that we are going spend ?30,000 billion

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on Trident, or ?30,000... That was before we came on air, just for

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people watching. My vote would be that we divert some of that wasted

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money into better social services is, into the police, into all sorts

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of ways of protecting our children. APPLAUSE. This idea then that

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there's a certain momentum for this at the moment, Matthew, a certain

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climate. Do you think we are living in different times to an extent?

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Well, I do think there is, and I think that social media probably has

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a lot to do with it. The idea that there's some sort of conspiracy to

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protect paedophiles has been given a lot of mileage by social media and

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certain websites who seem to make a great deal of it. I think it is very

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dangerous, because it does lead to the sort of, if I may say so Peter,

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rather over the top language, talking about Holocaust of billions

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and people being protected by shadowy cabals of establishment

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figures, and I think it is something we've got to be careful about. I

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quite agree with Dawn we need to be very careful about the sort of

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language we use. Peter? I'm never hysterical about it. Cyril Smith is

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an example, Cyril Smith MP... He had a lot of friends around him who

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protected him, that's incontrovertible. The police were

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going to arrest that man years ago and Special Branch, under the orders

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of their political Masters, stepped in and prevented him from being

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apprehended. Therefore he could carry on raping children. And Savile

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had a lot of friends in high places didn't he. The fact that somebody

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has friends in high place doesn't mean that those friends in high

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places are protecting them. I spend quite a lot of my time not just

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defending people accused of crimes against children but prosecuting

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people with crimes against children. Very quite a lot of contact with the

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police and CPS. Not once has anyone in the police or CPS ever, over the

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many years I've been involved in this sort of thing, suggesting to

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me, we should go soft on a particular individual because he's

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friendly with a Freemason or with a senior politician. It's, in my

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experience, for what it's worth, and it doesn't prove anything, it is

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complete nonsense. Do you think some people are seriously in it for the

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money? I've no doubt some are in it for the money. I've no doubt that

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the majority are not. Certainly money plays a part with some people.

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Dawn? I find that quite offensive. There are much easier ways to make

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money from the criminal justice system. I've done some work on cash

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for crash scheme where is you drive into a car. Car. But coming forward

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and talking about your abuse experiences, alleged or otherwise,

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and pinpointing one individual seems a high-risk strategy. I think a lot

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of people are worried there's a witch-hunt around this, when what I

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see is people and our society accepting that child abuse has been

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condoned tacitly for decades and people are finally beginning to

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understand what happened and it wasn't OK and we shouldn't stand for

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this. The standards have changed. Thank you very much indeed for your

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thoughts on that particular debate. APPLAUSE.

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If you have something to say about that debate,

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log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, and follow the link to where you can

:19:35.:19:37.

We're also debating live this morning from South London: Can

:19:38.:19:43.

And later, does social media reveal men's hatred for women?

:19:44.:19:50.

I guarantee there'll be strong feelings on both sides of that

:19:51.:19:55.

debate from people who've been involved in some very interesting

:19:56.:19:58.

exchanges on social media. So get tweeting or emailing on those

:19:59.:20:01.

topics now or send us any other ideas or thoughts you may

:20:02.:20:04.

have about the show. Organised by the Bahai faith,

:20:05.:20:07.

its aim is to recognise "the oneness of humankind through the belief

:20:08.:20:12.

that religion must be Clearly they're not regular viewers

:20:13.:20:15.

of The Big Questions! Fidelma, hello. Hi. Your message,

:20:16.:20:35.

many people will think your message is absolutely inspiring. This is the

:20:36.:20:39.

Bahai religion. You were a Catholic. Yes. But came a Bahai, from Northern

:20:40.:20:47.

Ireland. I'm sure people still say, are you a Protestant Bahai or a

:20:48.:20:54.

Catholic Bahai... I still get that! LAUGHTER. Tell us about the truth.

:20:55.:20:59.

From the Bahai perspective, yes, the idea of religion as one force is

:21:00.:21:04.

very much fundamental to Bahai belief. It is the understanding that

:21:05.:21:08.

all religion are like chanters of one book. There's a progressive

:21:09.:21:13.

nature to religion. Religions come at different time, or the founders

:21:14.:21:18.

of different religions come at different times in the world. Time

:21:19.:21:23.

appropriate. Absolutely, to bring out the best potential of human

:21:24.:21:26.

beings to be the best they can be and to serve the world. So this idea

:21:27.:21:34.

of Bahai... Who? The founder of the Bahai faith, over 100 years ago,

:21:35.:21:39.

said religions are like the rays of one sun and they proceed from the

:21:40.:21:46.

same sun source. All religions? All the world's great religions or the

:21:47.:21:49.

divine teachers come from one source. So Adam, Abraham, Moses,

:21:50.:21:56.

Jesus, Mohammed, Krishna, sorry if I've left anyone out. That's a good

:21:57.:22:00.

list. That's what you are saying. Yes, that all of these divine

:22:01.:22:05.

educators come from the same one source, with the same spiritual

:22:06.:22:09.

messages. What changes are the social teachings throughout the

:22:10.:22:12.

ages. And they are applied in different ways to accommodate the

:22:13.:22:16.

different and respond to the different needs of humanity that is

:22:17.:22:21.

changing down through the ages. Oh, so you see, many people will love

:22:22.:22:26.

that idea. You are a director of Reform. Yes. What a wonderful

:22:27.:22:32.

thought, many people might not believe it but for those who do you

:22:33.:22:40.

go to Heaven, and it is Buddhist, is Buddhist, Protestant, Catholics,

:22:41.:22:42.

Sunni, Shia - you name it, they are, there and not in different rooms,

:22:43.:22:46.

altogether. Altogether. Is that not a wonderful thought? It is a

:22:47.:22:50.

wonderful idea. A lovely thought. Isn't it beautiful? But I think it

:22:51.:22:55.

doesn't go to the heart of the differences between the different

:22:56.:23:00.

teachings of all those people, and it really contradicts the heart of

:23:01.:23:03.

Christianity. And that's one of the problems. The only way is to be

:23:04.:23:11.

through Christ? Jesus says, I am the way, the truth and the light, and

:23:12.:23:17.

no-one comes to the Father except through me. Other faiths don't

:23:18.:23:22.

believe fundamentally that we are fundamentally good people and we can

:23:23.:23:28.

get better. Original sin. So the only way to get into the celestial

:23:29.:23:35.

realm is through Christ? Only through Jesus Christ on the cross.

:23:36.:23:40.

So Muslims, Buddhists, they have had it? Whether we have faith, we need

:23:41.:23:46.

Jesus to die for us. Christians might be wrong, but Christians can't

:23:47.:23:52.

be right and everyone else be right. That just doesn't work. We could be

:23:53.:23:56.

wrong. Christ maybe didn't need to die on the cross. That's quite

:23:57.:24:00.

possible. Okay, you accept you might be wrong? Yes, we have faith. I've

:24:01.:24:06.

got a faith you can join, the Bahai faith over there. I'm convinced by

:24:07.:24:18.

the discussion we've just had. Reverend Peter Owen Jones, you've

:24:19.:24:21.

looked at this stuff. Do you think that all favourites are barking up

:24:22.:24:27.

the same tree, or are they just barking? What do you think? Do you

:24:28.:24:33.

go with the Bahai or with Suzi? I think all faiths are asking the same

:24:34.:24:40.

questions. There we are. And, those are important questions. I feel that

:24:41.:24:45.

as part of the freedom of being a human being we need to be free to

:24:46.:24:50.

ask those questions. What it is to love, what it is to seek justice,

:24:51.:24:55.

what it is to experience grace, what it is to experience gratitude. These

:24:56.:25:00.

are very important human questions. This is about human stuff. I think

:25:01.:25:07.

where it starts to unravel and turn ugly is where one faith believes

:25:08.:25:16.

that it has the right to impose that view on others in anyway that it

:25:17.:25:25.

seeks. I learnt over time that the religions that I felt comfortable

:25:26.:25:32.

with were ones that were really expressing love in action. Yes!

:25:33.:25:40.

APPLAUSE. And those... The religions that were trying to convert me to

:25:41.:25:45.

their perspective, at the expense of everything else, that I wasn't to

:25:46.:25:50.

look left, I wasn't to look left, I was to concentrate on that and that

:25:51.:25:55.

alone. At that point I became very uncomfortable. So it was those with

:25:56.:26:02.

certainty? Yes, those with certainty can turn toxic very quickly

:26:03.:26:06.

settlement. Is it one God? Thoughts from the audience, the gentleman in

:26:07.:26:11.

the stripy shirt. Couldn't the one sun from which those rays are

:26:12.:26:17.

emanating be humanity other than humanity? And couldn't the

:26:18.:26:22.

narratives pull people culturally together but between cultures apart

:26:23.:26:26.

be the problem rather than the solution? Good morning to you. I'm

:26:27.:26:33.

from London Black Atheists. We don't believe in religion. We think

:26:34.:26:36.

religion makes a load of claims for itself which are absolutely false

:26:37.:26:40.

and none of them have ever been proven to be true. There is no doubt

:26:41.:26:45.

at all that if you were to follow religions you would lose your way

:26:46.:26:50.

rather than finding your way. You would find lies instead of truth,

:26:51.:26:54.

and you would probably die instead of being led to life.

:26:55.:27:03.

APPLAUSE. OK. The great teachers, Krishna, Mohammed and Jesus and

:27:04.:27:08.

Dawkins... LAUGHTER ITE

:27:09.:27:10.

LAUGHTER They are all - I love Richie, a great guest on the

:27:11.:27:15.

programme. I just had a thought, a rare thing but I did, Fidelma, which

:27:16.:27:20.

is that you talk about all the great teachers that have been sent. I gave

:27:21.:27:25.

that list of the great teachers through time, but then I thought,

:27:26.:27:31.

what about Joseph Smith, who for example from the Mormon religion,

:27:32.:27:37.

who met the angel Moroni thrice and was given gold plates? Would he

:27:38.:27:41.

qualify as someone who was sent? Not... No, we wouldn't see Joseph

:27:42.:27:47.

Smith... You are drawing a line aren't you?

:27:48.:27:51.

APPLAUSE But we would say he was an inspired person but not as a

:27:52.:27:56.

manifestation of God. How can you tell? I guess it is where Bahais say

:27:57.:28:05.

investigate truth for yourself. Look at it with a searchingy with a

:28:06.:28:09.

scientific approach. Peter said the thing that puts people off religion

:28:10.:28:16.

is when the dogma and teachings are shoved down your throat. So was

:28:17.:28:24.

Bahai the last prophet. You know the hand game like that, as to who is

:28:25.:28:30.

the last prophet? The latest but not the last in this progressive line.

:28:31.:28:36.

Just like educators in a school... Kate Smurthwaite, quickly. Want to

:28:37.:28:43.

take issue with one thing that you say, Fidelma, religion as a

:28:44.:28:45.

progressive force. There are a handful of occasions, literally a

:28:46.:28:51.

handful when religion historically has done something progressive. But

:28:52.:28:57.

there are overwhelming examples where religion has been a force

:28:58.:29:02.

against progressiveness. There's a lot of homophobia out there and it

:29:03.:29:10.

is religiously motivated. And women's rights, driven by religion.

:29:11.:29:14.

What Suzi says is right. If you look at these religions in detail they

:29:15.:29:18.

are not all compatible. It is impossible to sit there and say, we

:29:19.:29:26.

all believe in the same God, but you practice in a way that's gender

:29:27.:29:33.

apartheid, and homophobia. Even if there is one true God, or what we've

:29:34.:29:37.

seen is the same kind of delusions occurring in lots of different

:29:38.:29:40.

places around the world, and we should accept that they are

:29:41.:29:44.

delusions and move on in a humanist way and with progressive social

:29:45.:29:46.

values. APPLAUSE.

:29:47.:29:54.

All those great teachers, I will not ask you about Hubbard, we would not

:29:55.:30:00.

include him! The Muslim Council of Britain. You converted from

:30:01.:30:04.

Christianity to Islam. Why do you believe Islam is right, Ameena

:30:05.:30:12.

Blake? Is it the true religion? It is to me. I was brought up as a

:30:13.:30:16.

Christian and I loved the teachings of the Bible but I am also a

:30:17.:30:20.

pragmatist and I wanted things to be proved to me before I followed them

:30:21.:30:24.

and so I was looking for the truth. I had a friend who was Muslim and

:30:25.:30:28.

she told me about the Koran and I was looking to it, and there are so

:30:29.:30:32.

many scientific facts in the Koran which was written 1400 years ago by

:30:33.:30:42.

an illiterate guy in the desert. I could not deny it was the truth.

:30:43.:30:45.

They are things that he could not have known. A lot of it was written

:30:46.:30:48.

before by the ancient Greeks. But he might not have heard that. He could

:30:49.:30:54.

not know that. Merchant roots? Even if that was the case, there is no

:30:55.:30:59.

way he would have had the chance to have access to it. Many of the

:31:00.:31:10.

scientific things in the Koran are only now being found to be true.

:31:11.:31:14.

They thought the world was flat, laid out like a carpet. They say it

:31:15.:31:20.

is X-shaped, which is scientifically true. The Western scholars would say

:31:21.:31:25.

the world is flat and if you go far enough, you fall off the edge. What

:31:26.:31:31.

is the clincher for you for being a Muslim? I can ask any question of

:31:32.:31:37.

Islam and it will give me a logical and scientifically proven answer.

:31:38.:31:40.

Very much in this debate, the essence of faith, I think personally

:31:41.:31:48.

Islam is correct. Other people will debate that with me and disagree

:31:49.:31:52.

with me, and that is the beauty of religion. We must absolutely be

:31:53.:31:57.

tolerant of other religions or non- religions. We talk about religion

:31:58.:32:02.

but we forget about people's other beliefs, if they are capitalist or

:32:03.:32:07.

whatever. But believes have changed with science and most modern

:32:08.:32:12.

religions accept science, evolution, these things, because they really

:32:13.:32:16.

have no choice, have they? Absolutely. If you look back at

:32:17.:32:23.

Darwin, for example, there was a massive clash between his theories

:32:24.:32:26.

and religion at the time. Many people got on board with it.

:32:27.:32:32.

Absolutely. Because Darwin's theory contradicted what the Bible was

:32:33.:32:35.

saying, people were forced into account, one side or the other, not

:32:36.:32:41.

both. People felt very divided. It is not the case now. Kate, do you

:32:42.:32:47.

want to come back here? First of all, this idea that something in the

:32:48.:32:51.

Koran somehow has been proven by science, firstly it is just not

:32:52.:32:55.

true. There are versus that contradict other parts of the Koran.

:32:56.:33:01.

It says you cannot mix salt water with freshwater. You can disprove

:33:02.:33:04.

that in your home with a couple of glasses and a bowl. It is very

:33:05.:33:07.

straightforward to demonstrate that a lot of what is in the Koran is

:33:08.:33:13.

nonsense. This same must apply to every other religious text out

:33:14.:33:17.

there. There is not one that makes any sense. That is why the vast

:33:18.:33:20.

majority of people who study sciences and things like that are

:33:21.:33:24.

atheists like myself. When we look at the facts, well, there is a whole

:33:25.:33:30.

other question about what people are getting out of religion and what

:33:31.:33:33.

they are looking for. Many scientists are people of faith so it

:33:34.:33:38.

is compatible. There are very few that follow specific religious

:33:39.:33:43.

books. There are some out there who think... Some of the great

:33:44.:33:47.

evolutionary biologists in the world are Christians, people like Ken

:33:48.:33:53.

Miller. That is a cognitive dissonance. I have been worrying

:33:54.:33:56.

about this since you said the Koran was write about the shape of the

:33:57.:34:02.

earth. What sort of egg is shaped like the earth? The earth is not

:34:03.:34:08.

precisely round. Scientists have realised... I have never seen an egg

:34:09.:34:14.

that is more or less a globe but slightly flattered at either end.

:34:15.:34:20.

Peter. If you pick up a scientific journal from the 1840s, you are

:34:21.:34:24.

going to find parts of it exceedingly humorous. To modernise.

:34:25.:34:36.

To suggest that science and the facts are the way we need to go

:34:37.:34:40.

really negates the fact that this is something that is continually moving

:34:41.:34:45.

and evolving. You and I have no right to the truth. We have a right

:34:46.:34:50.

to explore the truth. Then you're completely misunderstanding the

:34:51.:34:53.

scientific method. It is not believing in science. We heard

:34:54.:34:56.

atheism being referred to as a belief. It is not. How can it be a

:34:57.:35:04.

belief? Exactly. If somebody can demonstrate to me there is a God

:35:05.:35:06.

that I will be religious tomorrow but if you look at the proof that

:35:07.:35:10.

the facts, science is not about saying I believe this because I

:35:11.:35:29.

want to. Science has a method. An experiment, repeatable, we

:35:30.:35:32.

demonstrate something, we have a hypothesis, we prove it, and we keep

:35:33.:35:35.

going and tested and look for new evidence. What I think changes as I

:35:36.:35:37.

see evidence. Joshua. You cannot prove the existence of God. The

:35:38.:35:40.

whole point about God is faith. Exactly. He doesn't exist. In nine

:35:41.:35:42.

years of this programme, believe it or not, we have debated whether God

:35:43.:35:48.

exists or not! I want to take it back, if I may, to the fact that all

:35:49.:35:57.

the people who have been sent with divines, Abraham, Jesus, Mohammed,

:35:58.:36:00.

Joshua, your good self this morning! All men. All men, you say? If I

:36:01.:36:12.

could come in on this idea? Where are the women? Let me step back for

:36:13.:36:18.

a moment and this question of God. One of the understandings that I

:36:19.:36:24.

have is that God is noble but sacred figures are sent into the world for

:36:25.:36:28.

us to look into their lives in the scientific and rigorous way and see

:36:29.:36:34.

if the teachings make sense and make me and the world better. That is a

:36:35.:36:40.

sanity check for religion, actually. I think that is where Christianity

:36:41.:36:44.

is so different. To say that God is unknowable is to deny that Jesus

:36:45.:36:48.

Christ came to earth, the son of God, to reveal himself to us. We can

:36:49.:36:52.

know God because Jesus Christ was God. I agree that is an

:36:53.:36:57.

extraordinary claim. Jesus Christ was God. We cannot say that we can

:36:58.:37:05.

search out... Not according to Ameena Blake. Mohammed very plainly

:37:06.:37:11.

said this is nonsense. This is the difficulty of saying that all

:37:12.:37:13.

religions are the same. They cannot all be right. Peter, is it possible

:37:14.:37:21.

to get rid of the rituals, the beliefs, then doctrines, the

:37:22.:37:24.

encumbrances, forget it all, it is all man made, there is one God and

:37:25.:37:30.

it is the same God, unless you believe in lots of gods, polytheism?

:37:31.:37:38.

Is it difficult to cut through all that stuff? I think when we are

:37:39.:37:42.

hanging onto dear life, to Christ, to Mohammed, to Baha'u'llah, or

:37:43.:37:50.

indeed to the founder of the Bahai fake, I think we are in trouble of

:37:51.:37:54.

not being able to see what is around us. I think each human being has the

:37:55.:38:03.

capacity to experience the great mystery of existence. The great

:38:04.:38:10.

mystery of love. What I am seeing currently around the planet is the

:38:11.:38:15.

development of human consciousness, the development of building a world

:38:16.:38:19.

of peace is actually being held back by many of our ancient belief

:38:20.:38:23.

systems. I think what I am interested in is saying, have we

:38:24.:38:27.

reached a point now where have we drunk from these cups as far as we

:38:28.:38:35.

can? If we are going to have world Interfaith day, what does that mean?

:38:36.:38:41.

As the time now come for all religions to renounce violence?

:38:42.:38:46.

Should that be on the table? I don't know who sent you! A lot of people

:38:47.:38:51.

will like the cut of your jib. Thank you very much for your

:38:52.:39:03.

contributions. You can join in all of the morning's debates by logging

:39:04.:39:06.

on and following the link to the online discussion.

:39:07.:39:11.

Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq.

:39:12.:39:16.

Tell us what you think about our last Big Question too.

:39:17.:39:19.

Does social media reveal men's hatred for women?

:39:20.:39:21.

And if you'd like to be in the audience at a future

:39:22.:39:24.

We're in Edinburgh next week, Bradford on 31st January,

:39:25.:39:27.

45 years ago, in that feminist primer, The Female Eunuch,

:39:28.:39:37.

still worth reading, Germaine Greer argued that women

:39:38.:39:39.

The advent of social media sites, like Twitter and Facebook,

:39:40.:39:48.

has displayed some men's views of some women

:39:49.:39:50.

And a lot of it is very nasty indeed, with rape threats and death

:39:51.:39:55.

threats made even against a woman whose only crime was to support

:39:56.:39:57.

Does social media reveal men's hatred for women?

:39:58.:40:03.

Kate, you made a comment on this programme last time, and I can't

:40:04.:40:09.

even remember what it was, but as ever it was interesting and

:40:10.:40:13.

controversial and stimulating. It was a tiny little comment. What was

:40:14.:40:19.

it? It was about the way somebody was being addressed. Let's do this.

:40:20.:40:26.

What happened to you? Does social media reveal men's hatred? Of

:40:27.:40:31.

course. We have known these opinions are out there and social media takes

:40:32.:40:34.

these opinions from around the world but it does much more than that as

:40:35.:40:38.

well. It allows people to access you when you should be safe in your

:40:39.:40:43.

home. Suddenly, once upon a time, if there were 100 people gathered

:40:44.:40:47.

outside your house shouting at you, you would have called the police and

:40:48.:40:50.

it would have been dealt with, but because of social media, people from

:40:51.:40:54.

all over the world, people you would otherwise not go near, are able to

:40:55.:41:05.

get to you. What was it like for you? I was on this show about a year

:41:06.:41:13.

ago. We were debating gender equality with Milo. In 48 hours I

:41:14.:41:20.

received 165 pages of media abuse including rape and death threats and

:41:21.:41:24.

unpleasant comments about my appearance. Because of what you said

:41:25.:41:33.

about Milo? Many were from Milo and people encouraged him and retweeted

:41:34.:41:38.

him. My head Photoshopped onto unattractive bodies, photographs of

:41:39.:41:42.

me manipulated to look horrible and whatever. I am not the first and

:41:43.:41:46.

last person to be on the receiving end of this kind of onslaught. From

:41:47.:41:53.

him? From Milo, from a group of people that he supports and

:41:54.:41:57.

encourages. If I was in that situation and supporters of mine did

:41:58.:42:01.

this kind of thing, I would of course told them it was not cool,

:42:02.:42:08.

not OK. Instead, egged on by a community of deep-rooted

:42:09.:42:10.

misogynists, this is the world we now live in. It is not just me. Lots

:42:11.:42:15.

of women have been affected by this, including teenagers, women from all

:42:16.:42:20.

around the world. Milo? What have you turned into? Such a nice young

:42:21.:42:30.

man. It is hard to believe. If you're of the furious. The

:42:31.:42:37.

Major-General of misogyny. You cannot support those comments? Of

:42:38.:42:41.

course not. Kate doesn't understand how frameworks, but I do. I am not

:42:42.:42:47.

particularly interested in a professional provocative who goes

:42:48.:42:51.

out and says deliberately outrageous things, like I do, and then turns

:42:52.:42:55.

round and plays a victim when she does not like ridicule and

:42:56.:43:00.

criticism. Let me finish. I let you finish, so stop. After she lost the

:43:01.:43:06.

debate, as feminists very often do these days, she turned round and did

:43:07.:43:12.

what feminists always do, which is confected a sob story. Kate, like

:43:13.:43:16.

me, it is a professional but only one of us plays the victim

:43:17.:43:23.

afterwards. Going back to the question, it is interesting that it

:43:24.:43:26.

is being framed like this at all. The global data from 2014 shows that

:43:27.:43:30.

men get more abuse online than women. It is men that get more death

:43:31.:43:36.

threats and violence threats. The only thing women beat men at and

:43:37.:43:41.

this is pure global data and this is the gold standard of research, the

:43:42.:43:44.

only thing women beat men at is cyberstalking and most of the people

:43:45.:43:49.

doing the stalking are other women. Social media does not show that men

:43:50.:43:53.

hate women, it shows that women hate everyone. Let me finish this point.

:43:54.:44:02.

That is an outrageous thing to say. I will qualify it and explain what I

:44:03.:44:08.

mean. I am going to get to you, don't worry. Explained to my

:44:09.:44:15.

daughter is what you have just said. Take the camera off him. It is

:44:16.:44:20.

outrageous. Freedom of speech. Doesn't mean it is not outrageous.

:44:21.:44:27.

Not only are men the primary victims but women are the primary

:44:28.:44:33.

perpetrators. Let him finish. Why should we let him finish? How much

:44:34.:44:40.

time is he getting? Connie. This man went on Twitter recently and said he

:44:41.:44:45.

wanted people assassinated. You are a liar. You lied about Tim Hunt and

:44:46.:44:53.

now you are lying about me. Carney. Connie! You are liar. If I were to

:44:54.:44:59.

walk out of the studio now, mayhem would ensue. I would come with you

:45:00.:45:05.

if you left! You are giving airtime to this. Wait a minute! I want

:45:06.:45:14.

silence! I want us all to enjoy just a little ten second window of

:45:15.:45:19.

silence. Then we can all calm down. No talking for ten seconds.

:45:20.:45:26.

Kate, what were you going to say? What I was going to say, I don't

:45:27.:45:32.

want this to be a debate about one individual. It is a shame that

:45:33.:45:37.

somebody gives airtime to somebody whose views and completely horrific

:45:38.:45:40.

statements have been so widely seen... But it is good to challenge

:45:41.:45:46.

them. But the point is there's a huge, huge weight, and young women

:45:47.:45:50.

who speak up online are facing a huge backlash. It is very

:45:51.:45:54.

frightening. I'm often asked to go into schools. Teachers want me to go

:45:55.:46:01.

in and encourage young women to speak up and express myself. I don't

:46:02.:46:05.

think young women are stupid. I don't think when they don't express

:46:06.:46:09.

themselves they are bashful and nervous and don't know what to say.

:46:10.:46:16.

They know what social media is like. What a depressing view of young

:46:17.:46:20.

women. When we want people to speak out and feel comfortable about

:46:21.:46:24.

expressing themselves, make the internet a place where they can do

:46:25.:46:31.

so. Bring in new laws to deal with this things. Connie, I will come to

:46:32.:46:35.

you in a minute. We need to be trained how to deal with this,

:46:36.:46:39.

training on when to act and when not to act, to make sure that the worst

:46:40.:46:43.

things, the rape and the death threats, the horrific harassment and

:46:44.:46:48.

abuse is dealt. I think when we see a few high profile individuals,

:46:49.:46:52.

perhaps some in this studio, locked up, it will be time for other people

:46:53.:46:57.

to back off, and I very much look forward to that day. Milo,ly come to

:46:58.:47:03.

you, and Connie in a second. We'll have... Someone has to reveal how

:47:04.:47:11.

similar these two arguments are. What both Milo and Kate are saying

:47:12.:47:16.

is people can be made to feel victimised and nervous and scared of

:47:17.:47:20.

the internet, whether that's men or women. It is a pathetic view of how

:47:21.:47:27.

people deal with insults and words. Most people, especially when they

:47:28.:47:32.

receive this kind of threat. I'm talking about rape and death

:47:33.:47:37.

threats. And when they receive this on Twitter they block or ignore.

:47:38.:47:43.

Please, Kate. This is what happens. Middle class women decide they want

:47:44.:47:49.

to take on the plight of and that women are victimised and can't

:47:50.:47:55.

handle the internet. It is disgusting and sexist to say women

:47:56.:48:00.

can't handle the internet. The women should be able to experience

:48:01.:48:05.

everything about public life. We fought for that throughout history

:48:06.:48:09.

and she wants to shut us away from it. We are going to hear Connie's

:48:10.:48:15.

story and then I will get Milo to respond. Please, no more about these

:48:16.:48:25.

egomaniacs. That's ideally how it is going be structured. Connie. We

:48:26.:48:32.

heard reference to him and the whole situation, the saga there from Milo

:48:33.:48:38.

Yiannopoulos. Professor Tim Hunt made a not very funny off-taste

:48:39.:48:45.

joke, in a lecture hall, a room in South Korea. Some would say it

:48:46.:48:50.

wasn't hugely offensive. Got worldwide attention, nothing to do

:48:51.:48:53.

with you but he lost his job. You had drawn people's attention to it.

:48:54.:48:57.

The reaction to your reaction was extraordinary. What have you gone

:48:58.:49:02.

through? So this has been really dreadful. It is exhibited here by

:49:03.:49:09.

the way that Milo felt he could shout abuse across the studio at me.

:49:10.:49:13.

What's interesting about this is that it is not about how people use

:49:14.:49:19.

the Twitter. It's about people trying to maintain a political

:49:20.:49:23.

status quo. So a lot of what goes on, particular people in America

:49:24.:49:29.

like Rush Limbaugh who've a right-wing ideology. They don't want

:49:30.:49:33.

to hear from women, with don't want to hear from people of other

:49:34.:49:38.

colours, or people with contrasting conservative view. These people are

:49:39.:49:43.

very loud and these people are very determined to shut a lot of people

:49:44.:49:50.

up. So I report something, I'm a journalist, can I report things, and

:49:51.:49:54.

in the end in order to protect some stupid comment, then I have to be

:49:55.:49:59.

discredited. I don't have to be discredited. I did nothing wrong.

:50:00.:50:03.

I'm not a liar. I don't even have to defend myself. As a journalist I can

:50:04.:50:07.

put a story out there. It was true... What abuse did you have

:50:08.:50:11.

online? I didn't just have abuse online. I had lots of letters sent

:50:12.:50:16.

to my office that were very racist. People would phone me up and scream

:50:17.:50:21.

really racist things. They would send me pictures of monkeys hanging

:50:22.:50:27.

in trees, saying, go back to your hut, go back to your jungle, you're

:50:28.:50:32.

not welcome here. It is like we're back 50 years in the racial economy

:50:33.:50:39.

of this country. People are really crude and it is very sad for people

:50:40.:50:44.

like me who've been here and you are trying to make things different for

:50:45.:50:46.

the next generation and there is no change. This country is just as

:50:47.:50:51.

racist, just as white male privileged as it has always been.

:50:52.:50:56.

APPLAUSE. Some people. These are some people. These are people who

:50:57.:51:01.

would never say it to your face. They are keyboard warriors. They

:51:02.:51:06.

never say it to your face. They won't stand up and own their

:51:07.:51:12.

statements. It is a minority of men. It is not about hatred. It is

:51:13.:51:18.

hundreds of thousands of men, if you are trying to... Milo, I said we

:51:19.:51:26.

would come to Milo. You did this poll online. Yes. What would you

:51:27.:51:30.

rather your child had, feminism or cancer? Yep, and 22,000 people and

:51:31.:51:35.

people voted in favour of cancer. What the statistics show us is that

:51:36.:51:40.

in just two years the number of women who identify as a feminist in

:51:41.:51:47.

the US has gone from 28 do 15%. The number of women who identify as

:51:48.:51:54.

feminist to an all time low of 7%. Professional provocateurs who play

:51:55.:51:58.

the victim after the fact and professors of science journalism who

:51:59.:52:11.

deliberately misrepresent statement by Nobel prize-winning... The daily

:52:12.:52:16.

buzz, the BBC, all of them have had to issue corrections over statements

:52:17.:52:20.

you made. You are a liar. People can look this up. A professor of science

:52:21.:52:26.

journalism who fabricated her CV as well. We have to get a response to

:52:27.:52:35.

that. I'm going to make specific accusations she can respond to. You

:52:36.:52:41.

are talking about people throwing accusations... People aren't

:52:42.:52:50.

interested in what you three... This poll, if you are an intellectual

:52:51.:52:56.

person or had half a brain, you would laugh at such rubbish.

:52:57.:53:01.

APPLAUSE. This is the whole thing about Twitter or the internet. If

:53:02.:53:04.

you are a political person, and journalists are political people,

:53:05.:53:08.

you put out an opinion there. I often put out opinions that people

:53:09.:53:11.

find abhorrent and disgusting because they don't agree with me.

:53:12.:53:15.

The emotional overreaction to that comes in the form of you're fat,

:53:16.:53:19.

you're this, all horrible stuff. Yes it is unpleasant. But the point

:53:20.:53:25.

is... But a monkey hang from a tree? I'm not condoning this. But what do

:53:26.:53:29.

we ask? ALL TALK AT ONCE

:53:30.:53:34.

Please! Connie, with you in a second.

:53:35.:53:34.

ALL TALK AT ONCE Let's hear the however. However... I

:53:35.:54:06.

am not responsible for what other people put on Twitter. 150,000

:54:07.:54:13.

people follow me on Twitter, 50,000 on YouTube, and on Facebook. Yet I'm

:54:14.:54:21.

not responsible for a tiny minority of idiots say. I was accused of

:54:22.:54:27.

calling for someone's assassination. These are outright galling lies from

:54:28.:54:31.

people with a history of dishonesty. It is all over the web. Yes,

:54:32.:54:40.

people with a history of dishonesty. It is all over the web. -- yes, your

:54:41.:54:45.

fabricated CV is online as well. You lied about Tim Hunt. You should be

:54:46.:54:53.

ashamed of yourself. Should we let Connie respond to that? He's

:54:54.:54:59.

pathetic. Connie? Milo just called for somebody to be assassinated.

:55:00.:55:02.

Twitter essentially struck him off. You are saying he didn't? No, I

:55:03.:55:07.

didn't. What was the wording of the tweet? Actually we don't need to

:55:08.:55:12.

believe everything he is saying. What did it say? Milo, let's hear

:55:13.:55:22.

Connie. He is a particular kind of person that makes his money and his

:55:23.:55:29.

fortune on Twitter. And he wants to develop his public persona on

:55:30.:55:32.

Twitter. There's lots of people like him around. How did he call for

:55:33.:55:37.

someone's assassination? In a tweet, because somebody challenged him.

:55:38.:55:45.

What was the wording? As a result Twitter has unverified him,

:55:46.:55:48.

deverified him. Not true. The you wrote about it yourself, Milo.

:55:49.:55:52.

Absolute nonsense. You need to address the allegations. This is the

:55:53.:55:56.

kind of person that had tried to make a fortune and their fame on

:55:57.:56:02.

Twitter, because they are desperate. Why do we care? My colleague in

:56:03.:56:11.

America, a very, very fine commentator on the New York Times.

:56:12.:56:15.

He wrote something recently and as a result he got a death threat. He

:56:16.:56:19.

said to Twitter, isn't it time you take some of these people off

:56:20.:56:23.

Twitter? And Twitter said, just contact the police if somebody

:56:24.:56:27.

shoots you. This person threatened to shoot him on Twitter. People like

:56:28.:56:32.

Milo are those kind of people. They need to be taken off and they need

:56:33.:56:37.

to be taken off... APPLAUSE. Please make it quick.

:56:38.:56:44.

Ladies over here who suffered this abuse and all other women and men,

:56:45.:56:52.

saying just block them or delete them or ignore it. They've been

:56:53.:56:55.

abused. They need to be held accountable for that.

:56:56.:57:00.

APPLAUSE. They are just words? Social media is just a Petri dish of

:57:01.:57:04.

the entirety of society really. But I have to say that the vacuous

:57:05.:57:09.

person like this is not representative of men on social

:57:10.:57:11.

media. APPLAUSE.

:57:12.:57:18.

CHEERING. Milo, you are a credentialist. Credentialist or

:57:19.:57:24.

egomaniac? You defend his right to be a controversialist. I defend

:57:25.:57:29.

people's right to be anything. That's the distinction, that I think

:57:30.:57:33.

you should be able to say the most abhorrent, the most awful things,

:57:34.:57:37.

because words are words. Especially on Twitter. The only time I would

:57:38.:57:41.

ever be afraid of a man or intimidate me was if he was

:57:42.:57:46.

threatening my life physically. That can't happen on Twitter because it

:57:47.:57:50.

is just words. The amount of stuff you get, death threats, evil stuff.

:57:51.:57:54.

Block them. Are you a girl or a woman? You have 40 seconds to

:57:55.:58:06.

respond Milo. Very straightforward. Let's not make it about me. You've

:58:07.:58:11.

got lying feminists throwing accusations. Who cares? The fact is

:58:12.:58:16.

that the research does not support the premise of this question, or

:58:17.:58:20.

support them. It doesn't support any of it's stuff you've said. You said

:58:21.:58:25.

lying feminist. Internet abuse is a real thing. It silences women's

:58:26.:58:29.

voices and makes women frighted to speak out. There are young home loo

:58:30.:58:33.

have committed suicide because of internet abuse and we have people

:58:34.:58:38.

here who not only support it but do it themselves.

:58:39.:58:44.

APPLAUSE. No! Thanks for watching. See you next week. Tweet away.

:58:45.:58:53.

It all started with the discovery of one enormous thigh bone.

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It's like a paleontological crime scene.

:59:09.:59:10.

Join Sir David Attenborough on the ultimate detective journey...

:59:11.:59:16.

the biggest animal to ever walk the Earth.

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