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Today on the big question is, do we need a British Islam? -- today on | :00:10. | :00:16. | |
The Big Questions. Good morning. I am Nikki Campbell. | :00:17. | :00:30. | |
Welcome to The Big Questions. Today we live from Bradford Grammar School | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
in west Yorkshire to debate a very big question. Do we need a British | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
Islam. Welcome, everyone, to The Big Questions. Now, is land is the | :00:40. | :00:47. | |
fastest-growing religion in the United Kingdom. The 2011 census | :00:48. | :00:54. | |
found 2.75 million Muslims in the UK and their numbers are growing ten | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
times faster than the general British population. But there is as | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
much that divides as unites British Muslims. Their forefathers came from | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
very different parts of the world. In Bradford, most Muslims come from | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
Pakistan but in London, Bangladeshis are predominant. Others have come | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
here from the Caribbean, Africa or the Far East. And then there is the | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
converts, 100,000 of them, two thirds women. What unites them all | :01:21. | :01:27. | |
is where they live now, Britain. And some British Muslims are now asking | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
if the time has come to develop a distinctly British version of Islam. | :01:32. | :01:38. | |
So we have gathered together Muslim theologians, academics, social | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
activists, scholars, campaigners and politicians to debate that idea. And | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
you can join in on Twitter or online by logging on to our website and | :01:49. | :01:57. | |
following the links. There will be lots of contributions from our | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
excellent, lively local audience here in Bradford. Do we need a | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
British Islam? Good morning, everyone. Adam Dean, you made a | :02:06. | :02:12. | |
panorama on this about a year ago. What would a British Islam be? What | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
would it look like? It would definitely be an Islam that has not | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
been hijacked by extremists and fundamentalists, and unfortunately | :02:24. | :02:25. | |
one of the greatest challenges we have right now for Islam is that the | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
dominant reading of Islam is one that has lost all of its beauty and | :02:32. | :02:40. | |
content. So what is an extremist? What is an orthodox Muslim? These | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
terms are difficult to define. Yes. What you find within the Muslim | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
community is that there is a tension between the rationalist Muslims and | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
the anti-rationalist Muslims. Unfortunately, the anti-rationalist | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
Muslims are influenced by puritanical readings of Islam, like | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
why had is, and they have the upper hand. There are many reasons why | :03:03. | :03:10. | |
that is. What does puritanical mean? It is a reading of Islam that is | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
literal, divorced from ethics. It is a particular idea that you can only | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
understand good and evil, right and wrong from religious scripture. And | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
individuals that I would deem to be puritanical have a very literalist | :03:27. | :03:35. | |
understanding. I cannot really see the link to extremism. What we have | :03:36. | :03:43. | |
to appreciate is that Islam, like Christianity, is a universal | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
religion. It is practised by different races in different | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
countries. There is no such thing as British Islam, American Islam. Yes, | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
the context is different and there are British Muslims, American | :03:58. | :03:59. | |
Muslims, but I find it problematic to actually paint all Muslims with | :04:00. | :04:10. | |
the same brush and say, you know what, there are are puritanical | :04:11. | :04:13. | |
Islam... I do not think he is doing that, with respect. One second, | :04:14. | :04:20. | |
please. I take your point, and you have made your point. It is unfair | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
to tar everyone with the same brush. I want to ask you a question. Is | :04:26. | :04:36. | |
orthodox Islam, is that a problem? Very much so. In my view, there are | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
three elements to a distinctive British Islam. The first is respect | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
for a plurality of beliefs. Including those that were | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
traditionally the boot, like identifying as a progressive Muslim. | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
traditionally the boot, like The second element is working | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
together towards the common good, as Muslims and | :04:56. | :05:02. | |
together towards the common good, as third element is respect for | :05:03. | :05:05. | |
equality and human rights. Sadly, this is were some of the more | :05:06. | :05:07. | |
conservative elements of Muslim have fallen back. Forgive me, I want to | :05:08. | :05:19. | |
get my definition is right. Equality, such as what? Forced | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
gender segregation? A prime example is the University's guidance on | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
gender segregation in universities, which a coalition of activists and | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
groups including Muslims had to work hard to overturn. And it was later | :05:34. | :05:42. | |
affirmed by the equality and human rights... Sexual equality? LGBT | :05:43. | :05:51. | |
equality. Adam, tell me one theological aspect which you believe | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
is no longer applicable to the modern age. Before I do that, I want | :05:57. | :06:04. | |
to clarify, there is a caricature understanding of what I say. | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
to clarify, there is a caricature think almost limbs are in this | :06:09. | :06:11. | |
predicament. I think that the dominating voices within our | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
communities are in minority but these individuals that are pushing | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
this reading of Islam. You can as the imam a question. The majority of | :06:21. | :06:28. | |
these scholars, as an example, that dominate the Islamic discourse, | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
believe that it is legitimate to kill an apostate, someone who has | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
decided to leave the Islamic faith. That is the epitome of | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
irrationality, to kill someone for changing their mind. What is your | :06:41. | :06:47. | |
direct question to the Imam? Do you support such a ruling. When you are | :06:48. | :06:54. | |
talking about Islam, British Islam, the first thing I would ask you, | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
Nicky, as this question ever been asked about any other faith? Do we | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
say, what is the British version of Sikhism or Judaism or... ? That is | :07:05. | :07:14. | |
my first question. And to his question first. -- and Sir his | :07:15. | :07:23. | |
question. I will. We come down to the theological arguments, Islam is | :07:24. | :07:25. | |
not just about theological arguments, Islam is all about love | :07:26. | :07:33. | |
and peace and respect. But that is just lip service. How much love can | :07:34. | :07:40. | |
you have to someone when you kill them for changing your mind. My | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
question to you, do you believe there is a problem of extremism | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
currently? Do you believe it is a problem? There is absolutely. It is | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
exacerbated by people. I will be back with you. There is a | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
parenthesis here. A couple of points that need to be explained. First, we | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
are living in a time where a lot of Muslims are devoid of ethics. I did | :08:04. | :08:11. | |
not say that. Devoid of the ethical element. In West Yorkshire, there | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
are floods taking place, and there are Muslims helping their fellow | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
citizens. Where is the void of ethics? They are driven by faith. | :08:21. | :08:27. | |
That is one important element. He talks about a vocal minority and the | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
reality is this. From someone like Adam, who is an outreach Director, a | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
laughable title, for the Quilliam Foundation. That is not a pleasant | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
thing to say. They keep talking about how these people are taking | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
over our country, doing this, subverting British values, and | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
really the reality is that if you look at the literature and the | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
reality of British Muslims, none of that makes sense. This question of | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
British Islam, if you talk to most British Muslims, I'm on about the | :08:59. | :09:06. | |
weather, I queue up, I have fish and chips and fried eggs, how much more | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
do you want me to integrate? What team do you support? Arsenal. Oh | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
dear. I am tired of that question. I think you will agree, you had time | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
to make that point and I will be back to you later. People watching | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
will think that you did singularly not and Sir Adam's question. To be | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
fair, ask the question again. You believe that there is a problem | :09:31. | :09:40. | |
within the religious discourse, and element of extremism, and do you | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
think we should condemn the ruling on apostates, that we should kill | :09:44. | :09:46. | |
them? Is that not a problem? Absolutely. But Islam as freedom of | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
choice and you can choose whether you want to be in Islam or out of | :09:52. | :09:58. | |
Islam. And there is no compulsion to bring somebody into Islam. But if | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
somebody is a Muslim who decides not to be a Muslim, do you think... I | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
will come to you in a minute. Please, be patient. Do you believe | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
that person should be killed? You are pinning down one single | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
argument. The majority of the jurors... Personally, I think that | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
person should not be killed. But you are asking me about... Will you let | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
me speak. I have stopped. I am going to leave and I will see you all | :10:33. | :10:40. | |
later on. Imam, carry on. I personally believe that person | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
should not be killed. That is my personal opinion. That's good (!). | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
Which is great. Islam is much wider than that. If you look at it that | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
way, every single faith and democracy, there is always one or | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
two ideas that the majority of people do not agree with. Look at | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
the larger picture. There is new ones. I am happy that you believe | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
they should not be killed but do you not know that the majority of the | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
school of thought actually believes that apostates should be killed and | :11:16. | :11:17. | |
that we need to challenge these ideas? We're not going to get any | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
further with that. We had a kind of answer. What would you like to say? | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
The majority of Muslims would not say they thought they should be | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
killed. There is an innate principle in the ground where it says that no | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
compulsion should be in the religion. That is the reality. But | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
there are a lot of people like you who feed into this anti-Muslim | :11:43. | :11:45. | |
narrative that Muslims do not accept anonymous limbs and are unwilling to | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
engage with them. And that feeds back into the rise of Islamophobia. | :11:51. | :11:53. | |
And who is the victim, someone like me who is participating with the | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
wider society, and engaging, and trying to implement the universal | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
values of freedom and justice and pluralism that is not restricted by | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
secularism only. These are universal values. Universal values. Shared by | :12:09. | :12:15. | |
Muslims and many other people. I am sorry to come back to another man, | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
but you did say there that this is the problem. What do you mean? The | :12:21. | :12:27. | |
problem is that when we accepted these theological ideas, that we | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
should kill apostates, and for your information, there is a hadith that | :12:31. | :12:37. | |
says kill anyone that changes their religion, and is accepted by three | :12:38. | :12:39. | |
schools of thought, potentially four. You need to get your facts | :12:40. | :12:46. | |
right. We have hate preachers and scholars visiting university | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
campuses that are actually saying, yes, it is OK to kill apostates as | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
long as they meet the conditions. That is like saying it is OK to rip | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
someone as long as they meet the conditions, it is absurd. Is there a | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
place in modern Britain for any kind of judgment on divorce or marriage | :13:04. | :13:06. | |
or matters of relationships between two adult people for sharia court? | :13:07. | :13:14. | |
Absolutely not. This is why we should not have the British Islam. | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
There would not be consensus. I think we have had multiculturalism | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
and now we have multi-faith is. What is wrong with sharia court? Are we | :13:23. | :13:32. | |
telling minority women what is best for them? But marriage is an act of | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
worship in Islam. It is also a contact. Are we saying that Muslim | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
women should not have equal opportunities to have access to the | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
war in the same way that no muscle women do? There is no regulation of | :13:46. | :13:52. | |
sharia courts. They are not courts, they are arbitration councils. It is | :13:53. | :13:59. | |
important to not caricature rise -- make a caricature of the whole | :14:00. | :14:01. | |
thing. This is vital, because what happens is we end up having a sound | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
bites discussion and people need to understand. I would recommend people | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
to do some research. The number of sharia courts is grossly | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
exaggerated. The numbers come from a research document that says there | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
exaggerated. The numbers come from a are about 85, but most are based on | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
online websites. The numbers are not clear, they are exaggerated. | :14:24. | :14:26. | |
Secondly, the arbitration Council is not legally binding. Thirdly, when | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
we talk about sharia court in this way, it leads into a narrative that | :14:32. | :14:34. | |
these people are taking over our country, and that is not true. It is | :14:35. | :14:40. | |
frustrating that people feed into this narrative. That is not what she | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
said. A big part of it is saying that women should not have access to | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
our courts. It is important. Who is saying that they shouldn't? The | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
reality is that people will go for arbitration within their own | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
community as they do. But the law of the land, surely, should overrule | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
that? And it does. I have been doing this work for 30 years, and over | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
that time, I have seen that Muslim women are being coerced and policed | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
by their families. Part of it is also the fault of the government, | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
legal aid cuts. Less access to English courts, and actually seeking | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
redress from coercion. Let me finish, let me finish. I have seen | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
women who said, I do not particularly want to go there but I | :15:29. | :15:31. | |
am being told that I have to go there. They do not want to challenge | :15:32. | :15:33. | |
am being told that I have to go the judgments because they will be | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
seen to be challenging the world word of God. I am not saying it is a | :15:38. | :15:39. | |
Muslim problem... There were Jewish arbitration | :15:40. | :15:53. | |
tribunal is in operation. That was Tony Blair's government, to use the | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
arbitration act to extend it to the Muslim community. Why do we need a | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
parallel legal system when we have the English Courts? I have seen | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
Muslim tribunal is where women have been told to hand over their | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
children to fathers at the age of seven, which is contained within a | :16:11. | :16:12. | |
religious texts. seven, which is contained within a | :16:13. | :16:20. | |
going to have to seven, which is contained within a | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
perpetrator, potentially, usually horrific abuse. They are in a room | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
with four men. THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
It is not acceptable. I work with women from all backgrounds, not just | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
Muslim women. I am a Muslim woman, but I work with other women. What | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
Yasmin said is more about culture, the oppression of men. We work with | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
people the oppression of men. We work with | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
violence across the board, it is not just Muslim women. We have cultural | :16:55. | :17:01. | |
practices within our family. just Muslim women. We have cultural | :17:02. | :17:09. | |
that oppression, so we are not just only working with women from Muslim | :17:10. | :17:16. | |
communities. In terms of sharia court, and cancel, some women feel | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
comfortable going there, and that is their choice. That is the choice | :17:21. | :17:27. | |
they are making. I would like to hear from women. Yasmin. I am really | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
tired of that cultural, this is religious. We should separated. | :17:32. | :17:40. | |
Please let me finish. Are using that Islam came in a context where there | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
was no patriarch your misogyny? THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
OK, everyone. What about other aspects. Are there any aspects of | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
theology that need to be reinterpreted. Sahar, you can maybe | :17:56. | :18:05. | |
come to us on this and explain. It is something that is maybe | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
misunderstood by people out with sharia -- out with Islam. I woman's | :18:12. | :18:20. | |
word is worst -- is worth half that of a man's. How can you as an | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
intelligent, professional person except that? I will explain to you. | :18:26. | :18:33. | |
That is the thing. There are certain principles in Islam that are | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
applicable in certain contexts. The verse that you mention in the Koran, | :18:39. | :18:45. | |
it is mentioned in the Koran, but in a certain context. When the woman | :18:46. | :18:53. | |
does not have a dependent, she has half of the inheritance. If she is | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
in charge of her house, or she is responsible for providing a living | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
for her family, she has an equal share of inheritance with men. It is | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
not black and white. The word is worth half that of a man's. You have | :19:11. | :19:17. | |
to see these cases individually. Two female witnesses for one man, how | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
can you accept that? There is a confusion. You're talking about a | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
different verse. The sister is talking about another verse. The | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
witness is in terms of a contract, for every man there must be two | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
women. Puritanical Muslims believe, they extrapolate from that, that I | :19:38. | :19:43. | |
woman is less than a man, as a witness. It is not controversial, | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
but what they misunderstand is the rationale to the verse. It says, so | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
the other one may remind her. It means that women in those times were | :19:54. | :19:55. | |
not involved in financial transactions. Where we part with the | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
extreme is, in modern society we say that women are engaged in public | :20:02. | :20:08. | |
life, involved with financial transactions, and they are | :20:09. | :20:11. | |
competent. Extremist Muslims. Mac we are on the same side. -- extremist | :20:12. | :20:27. | |
Muslims... The biggest driver of Islamophobia is denial that there is | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
a problem to begin with. APPLAUSE | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
Can I just finished? As for his jibe at me, making fun of my position at | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
the Quilliam Foundation, that is ironic given that the leader of your | :20:43. | :20:49. | |
foundation thought that he was persecuted by Mossad because they | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
stole his shoe. Maybe there is a serious point, Raza. A leading light | :20:54. | :21:03. | |
in your organisation at... No longer. Lots of people lampooned him | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
because of the level of scrutiny and intimidation, he was convinced that | :21:10. | :21:12. | |
his shoes were stolen by Mossad. You think they were? He has been | :21:13. | :21:22. | |
harassed many times. It may be true. It might play to a certain sense of | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
persecution, a persecution complex, is Mossad broke in and stole one of | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
his shoes. There is an article in the Guardian about how the Stasi had | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
employed certain tactics of subversion for individuals in the | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
past. You can read this article, changing the tea bags in people's | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
houses, making them feel they are losing their minds. | :21:47. | :21:49. | |
THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE The harassment of a Muslim activist | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
who speaks out against Israel's occupation of Palestine, who | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
criticises the government on Draconian policies, harassment of | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
the Muslim is not surprising. Look at what Adam is doing right now. We | :22:04. | :22:10. | |
are talking about British Islam, sharia, and he brings in this issue. | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
It is very distracting. Now the boot is on the other foot. Let me take it | :22:16. | :22:22. | |
over here. Is there a problem with orthodox Islam? Those that believe | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
they follow the true path of Islam will find that grossly offensive, an | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
attack on their beliefs? This is the heart of the problem. If you look at | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
the entirety of Islamic history, there have been more disagreements | :22:38. | :22:40. | |
among Muslims about the truth than agreements. The current situation is | :22:41. | :22:47. | |
not any different. These terms that we are using ad about conservative | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
and the extreme Islam. What do you meaning is likely by conservative | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
Islam? If you mean that conservative Islam represents exclusionary ideas, | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
if you think that conservative Islam is breeding supremacist ideas, this | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
is the heart of the problem. The same terminology is understood in so | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
many different ways. This quest to find the truth, it has been going on | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
for a very long time. It goes back to the heart of the discussion about | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
if we need a British Islam or not. If you look at the ways in which | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
Islam has been manifesting itself throughout history, Islam has been | :23:30. | :23:32. | |
able to fuse itself with different cultures. Sorry. I appreciate your | :23:33. | :23:41. | |
point about the contesting of terms. But what I find about this British | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
Islam argument, for me, and many of the youngest ones I have spoken to, | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
for me it is the colonial undertones. What does the minority | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
need to do more to fit in with the majority? Integration is a two-way | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
street. David Cameron says that women need to learning Laois to | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
combat extremism, but there is no link. All these different things. | :24:07. | :24:13. | |
You have people saying that we are against sharia, and yet George | :24:14. | :24:16. | |
Osborne introduces the first ever Islamic bond system in this country | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
with the Coalition Government. There is no consistency. There is not a | :24:21. | :24:27. | |
single Islamic community in this country. The heart of the problem is | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
there are certain individuals, certain groups, but Mike -- certain | :24:32. | :24:46. | |
groups. Mac nonsense mac -- THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE | :24:47. | :24:53. | |
There are many interpretations of this. | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
I am sure that Sahar and others would say this is an outrageous | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
thing to say. Wearing avails about equality, about freedom of | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
expression. It is about her articulating her religious and | :25:10. | :25:12. | |
political beliefs. What are you talking about? We have talked about | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
gender segregation but I am talking about the empowerment of women in | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
religious spaces more broadly. Many mosques in the country do not even | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
have adequate space for women. A group of us decided to set up our | :25:27. | :25:33. | |
own. As far as I am aware, it is the only mosque in the country which is | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
open to LGBT people. It creates a space even for ex-Muslims to come | :25:39. | :25:44. | |
to, to come to our events and listen to our perspectives. We need a space | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
that respects different viewpoints. We have not heard from Naz get. | :25:50. | :25:55. | |
Let's talk about women in Islam. Anyone who wants to make a point | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
about the position of women in Islam, please put your hand up. I | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
will be right with you. Good morning. What I do not understand | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
is, you live in Britain, so your loyalty, as far as I'm concerned, | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
should be to Britain. You should abide by the laws of the land, so | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
why are we even talking about sharia cancels? You have laws here that | :26:19. | :26:25. | |
protect equality for women. We have heard the very articulate answer to | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
that from Raza. The gentle man with your hand up. Everyone seems to have | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
these conflicting points on the front row. What if I know nothing | :26:36. | :26:43. | |
about Islam, what Muslim do I talk to to find out? Depending on who you | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
talk to, you get a different version of Islam. It is clueless. Many forms | :26:49. | :26:56. | |
of Islam. This is why this term, the Muslim community, is so meaningless. | :26:57. | :27:03. | |
It is about human beings. Naz Shah, good morning. Your MP for this neck | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
of the woods. Yes, welcome to my constituency. It is good to have you | :27:09. | :27:18. | |
here. What about women in Islam Quad -- women in Islam? Let me make a few | :27:19. | :27:25. | |
points. In terms of women and sharia courts, there is an issue. I am | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
aware of women that have gone that have been encouraged to go back to | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
violent partners. Let's not confuse that with religion. I sit here as a | :27:35. | :27:47. | |
women -- woman who is very anti-Muslim men because of the | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
experience of my mother, and the experiences I had. Forced marriage? | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
Absolutely. 15 years ago, I met some good Muslims who taught me what real | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
Islam was, and I then learned about Islam. I struggled with the fact | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
that the lady over here is saying that we have got a lot. Let me be | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
clear, I campaign nationally against inequalities in the British justice | :28:14. | :28:19. | |
system when it comes to women. Do not tell me that is just an Islamic | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
phenomenon. The British justice system is not equal forward line. | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
Neither is any country. We have inequality. Can I make this point? | :28:29. | :28:38. | |
It is all about direction of travel. Absolutely. In terms of sharia | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
courts, in terms of where they act as media areas, where there are bad | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
practices, we need to rule that out, women should not be encouraged to go | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
back to valid partners are persecuted, children should be held | :28:55. | :29:05. | |
with respect. -- intermediaries. As for the Quilliam Foundation, I will | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
name the organisation. For me, only yesterday I read that the Quilliam | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
Foundation had been knocked back by 45 institutes in Australia who | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
refuse to engage with them. Can I just answer? I have given you the | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
respect to listen to you, and I respect that in return. Going back | :29:26. | :29:31. | |
to the Quilliam Foundation without people, let's be clear, I was | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
tweeted yesterday as a member of the home affairs select omitted. I took | :29:38. | :29:43. | |
evidence from the foundation. The Quilliam Foundation city and tell us | :29:44. | :29:50. | |
we are in denial. To me the Quilliam Foundation is stripped of all | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
credibility. We are in denial of things. In Bradford, there is no | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
denial, there is an issue of radicalisation and safeguarding. | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
There is an issue of safeguarding people were the likes of Daesh reach | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
into our homes through social media and the Internet. Nobody is denying | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
that. Where we are different is our response to that issue. | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
We will address some of those issues of radicalisation and security in a | :30:20. | :30:28. | |
few moments. Thanks for that, it was very cute. But it is nothing to do | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
with religion. When we say that religion has something to do with | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
sharia courts and partners going back to their spouses and being | :30:38. | :30:44. | |
victims of domestic violence, you say we need to make a distinction | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
with religion, but the point of going to a sharia Council is because | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
of religion. One of the reasons they used to justify turning back to | :30:53. | :30:54. | |
abusive partners is because they believe the mandate about women. Not | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
in all cases, but in some cases, we must... Let me finish. There is a | :31:01. | :31:07. | |
sense of denial here that there is a problem in the way we read the | :31:08. | :31:13. | |
Koran. I do not believe that the Koran mandates beating women but a | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
lot of Muslim scholars do. Let me finish. Imam, where the minute. Can | :31:18. | :31:29. | |
I ask you a question. Can I ask a question about sharia courts? We | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
have kind of moved on. When you are saying, is there a difference system | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
altogether, not at all. We have the laws of this country, and sharia | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
courts are not two parallel systems, they are there to subtly amended the | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
courts that are already there. And the second thing that comes in, | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
those women who are going to the sharia councils, I don't know where | :31:53. | :31:55. | |
the court system came from, originally it was a sharia Council. | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
They are going on their own accord. Nobody is asking them. Yasmin | :32:01. | :32:10. | |
disagrees. There is a couple of points. That was a key point about | :32:11. | :32:13. | |
the of their own accord. Two responses. Naz Shah and others were | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
involved in this personal case. And I was part of that. We have seen the | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
English courts develop a society develops. My issue is that we are | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
setting up a parallel system. The other thing is that it is | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
reductionist. That is what I'm saying, a parallel system. It should | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
be the system. But in my experience... Can you let her? Can | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
you let her speak? She had not finished. You can actually achieve a | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
lot of these things from a normal English magistrates as well. What | :32:50. | :32:58. | |
you are talking about... That can be... Steady, go. Can I make this | :32:59. | :33:04. | |
point? I have vast experience of women who do not want to go to those | :33:05. | :33:11. | |
systems, but are pressured. OK. I have also seen in situations where | :33:12. | :33:17. | |
men, Jewish men and musclemen withhold religious divorces. And | :33:18. | :33:24. | |
that can hold up proceedings and there is huge pressure in terms of | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
child custody. -- Muslim men. My issue with this, why do we need a | :33:30. | :33:37. | |
supplementary system? We spent some time discussing sharia law. But it | :33:38. | :33:43. | |
is reductionist. We talk about minority women, they have a culture. | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
But are we just Muslims? Are we nothing else? Does our national and | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
ethnic identity matter for nothing? I want to talk... I am desperately | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
trying to steer the conversation to that. We heard from Naz Shah about | :33:59. | :34:05. | |
forced marriage, saying that a lot of these things are cultural. Do you | :34:06. | :34:15. | |
think, Nahid, when we are talking about things like forced marriage | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
and female genital mutilation, nothing to do with religion, forced | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
marriage, wearing the veil, some argue that is an ideological issue | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
and some argue it is not, but do you think that there are many Muslims | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
who believe it is part of an Islam -- part of Islam when it is not? If | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
that is the case, there is a problem, isn't there? That is the | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
problem we see every day because people, they do not know anything | :34:43. | :34:45. | |
about true Islam. And if there are Muslims believe that, you can bet | :34:46. | :34:48. | |
there will be no muscle to believe that. And Muslims come from all | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
parts of the world. Not just India, Pakistani or Bangladesh. Muslims | :34:53. | :34:59. | |
bring their culture. They confuse their culture with religion. It does | :35:00. | :35:07. | |
not represent the true Islam. Who can represent the true Islam? But I | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
have been working with women from all cultures. They are facing these | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
problems again and again. Across the board. Also, a lot of these women | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
come to us and they wanted to go through sharia law. A lot of the | :35:21. | :35:26. | |
scholars said, if you have a divorce from the court, it is acceptable. | :35:27. | :35:33. | |
That is what they said. But some of the women, this is a choice because | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
they want to feel comfortable to go to sharia courts. Because we did not | :35:38. | :35:44. | |
want them to face that oppression. Islam does not believe in oppression | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
or oppressing other people. But there are cultural aspects there in. | :35:49. | :35:55. | |
Violence is oppression. That is what I believe. I have to say, there is | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
nuance. There is some coercion, but there is choice to it. You keep | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
shaking your head but there is choice involved. Regarding the point | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
about women and segregation, them being denied rights, it is not a | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
religious only phenomena. It is something that exists in our | :36:17. | :36:19. | |
society. Look at unequal pay for in this country. But this is the | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
direction of travel, you understand that. I feel that it is part of | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
white privilege. Any case... What does that mean, white privilege? If | :36:29. | :36:36. | |
a Muslim commits a crime, it is indicative of a wider problem within | :36:37. | :36:39. | |
their culture, their religion. But if you have someone from white, | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
Christian background, like the University of Lancaster who said | :36:46. | :36:48. | |
after the World Cup there was a 33% increase in domestic violence cases | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
after people watch football matches in the UK. They are not all Muslims. | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
But you would not say that this is an indicative of the white, | :36:57. | :36:59. | |
Christian problem, because the criminal is separate from his | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
ethnicity and religion. But when it comes to Muslims, they are not? | :37:05. | :37:14. | |
Yasmin, respond. Are we partly to blame as Muslims? Eerily out of. We | :37:15. | :37:20. | |
were salvation, back in the 70s, and then Salman Rushdie came with the | :37:21. | :37:29. | |
Satanic verses affair. That is where Muslim identity really came to the | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
fore. And then you had community leaders who came forward and said, | :37:35. | :37:37. | |
this is the identity box that we will fit. Don't downplay Bosnia. You | :37:38. | :37:46. | |
said let's just focus on Salman Rushdie. No, you | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
said let's just focus on Salman other down. I'm telling you. Tell me | :37:53. | :38:04. | |
about the issue that gets a lot of people really exercised, gender | :38:05. | :38:10. | |
segregation in public places. Some people see that | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
segregation in public places. Some get infuriated. They see it as | :38:15. | :38:15. | |
being, if you will allow me to say, get infuriated. They see it as | :38:16. | :38:24. | |
contrary to Western liberal society. We're sitting here, mixing | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
contrary to Western liberal society. and it is fine. I am | :38:29. | :38:28. | |
contrary to Western liberal society. that, I have no problem with that. | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
What is the argument for gender segregation, because it is a lively | :38:34. | :38:39. | |
debate. It is not a topic that should be even discussed. Not even | :38:40. | :38:46. | |
discussed?! Muslims are being singled out for every single | :38:47. | :38:48. | |
practice. Why is that? singled out for every single | :38:49. | :38:56. | |
yet it is never mentioned. singled out for every single | :38:57. | :39:03. | |
associate it with singled out for every single | :39:04. | :39:06. | |
or anything. We discussed domestic violence on a regular basis. They | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
or anything. We discussed domestic are in segregation, which is not | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
true. It is white, brown, black. Some Muslims, can I finish two you | :39:16. | :39:23. | |
should be free to wear whatever you want to wear. -- | :39:24. | :39:27. | |
should be free to wear whatever you should be free to wear whatever you | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
want to wear. Some issues are not reported on but it is an issue. | :39:33. | :39:35. | |
want to wear. Some issues are not made your point, but Adam Deen, | :39:36. | :39:37. | |
there are political meetings, and people are separate, Zaha says it is | :39:38. | :39:50. | |
not an issue and it should not be discussed... But there are women | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
only events that women chose to organise and they wanted it to be | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
that way. But in public spaces. Do you respect people who find it | :39:59. | :39:59. | |
offensive? Can I just say, women in you respect people who find it | :40:00. | :40:09. | |
organisations and they are not Muslim organisations, they came | :40:10. | :40:12. | |
together to be together. Why? Because they felt comfortable. What | :40:13. | :40:19. | |
is going on here with this. It is an issue that we should discuss because | :40:20. | :40:27. | |
people find it offensive and cannot understand why it is women only this | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
or men only this, but this is forced segregation. Is this a problem? Is | :40:32. | :40:38. | |
at a choice? It is a choice when it takes place in a public university? | :40:39. | :40:43. | |
No, it is not, it is a small group of people and forcing their brand on | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
people who disagree with that. And when a public body like a university | :40:48. | :40:53. | |
gives credence to narrow, Conservative interpretations of | :40:54. | :40:56. | |
Islam, unchallenged, then we have a problem. But Sahar Al-Faifi is | :40:57. | :41:04. | |
saying, that are they being forced? Are their security people saying, | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
you sit here, you sit there? But the situations are created so that | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
anyone who descents or publicly opposes this particular | :41:13. | :41:15. | |
interpretation of Islam is treated as a pariah, and that has to stop. | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
The progressive interpretation needs to be given rater space in Muslim | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
discourse. And that is not happening at the moment. It is not a | :41:26. | :41:32. | |
theological thing, it is a preference. But it is a little | :41:33. | :41:38. | |
disingenuous. Excuse me, everyone! I will be with you in second. Tehmina | :41:39. | :41:46. | |
Kazi, what would you like to say? What I want to say is that forced | :41:47. | :41:49. | |
segregation, it is not really a big issue within the Muslim community. | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
There are so many mixed events. Muslim women are happy to... Let me | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
put it to you. I understand, let me put this to you. Please listen to | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
me. Why are we demonising muscle and is? I want to ask your question! I | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
want to ask a question. Do you have respect for people who see it and | :42:10. | :42:17. | |
see it as inimical to our society when they see men and women in | :42:18. | :42:20. | |
public spaces sitting apart? Do you respect to their position? What I | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
want to say, we need a mutual understanding. I want to know, why | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
did she come to this view. Did she really attend this event? As she | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
interacted with these women? I wanted to know, how did you actually | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
conclude that? A lot of women choose to wear, they choose to sit within | :42:39. | :42:45. | |
their own group in a venue. Let her answer the question. Let her answer | :42:46. | :42:53. | |
the question. If you were in a restaurant, sitting on a table. | :42:54. | :42:59. | |
Letter, please, and to the question. I have had to sit at a gender | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
segregated event at a university Islamic society where I could not | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
even ask questions because it was deemed to be immoral. I had to ask | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
my question on a piece of paper and give it to someone to take up to the | :43:12. | :43:20. | |
front. Adam Deen. It is important to say that the problem does exist and | :43:21. | :43:23. | |
it is an obsession with sex. There is a reading of Islam that is | :43:24. | :43:31. | |
obsessed with sex and the potential situation where you may suddenly | :43:32. | :43:34. | |
have some sexual encounter with some women. But to put it into context, | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
this is not a widespread problem. It is a small minority of Muslims as a | :43:41. | :43:49. | |
whole. But what I am saying is... Please, let him finish,. You really | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
don't like me but we can talk afterwards. Audience in a minute. | :43:55. | :44:04. | |
Adam Deen. Please, I will put the kettle on and we can have a cup of | :44:05. | :44:10. | |
tea. It is not widespread. We had to put it into context but the point is | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
that it is disingenuous to say that it has nothing to do with religion. | :44:16. | :44:18. | |
There are individuals believe it is prohibitive to free mix. Good | :44:19. | :44:25. | |
morning. It is interesting when one of the biggest phenomenon is | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
attracting Islam today is people hijacking his land, people like | :44:30. | :44:36. | |
Daesh, who attract people in this country, but young people do not get | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
a say on these platforms. Maybe it is because you believe they should | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
not have a say. One point that might make me get attacked from both | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
sides... I will protect you. I think we have to understand that there are | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
issues. I think we have mistake or argument. When we talk about what | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
British Islam is, are we talking about our mosques, that they should | :44:58. | :45:00. | |
be built in a British fashion, without minarets? Do you find that | :45:01. | :45:06. | |
bizarre? I do, I think that will take away the alienation of Muslims. | :45:07. | :45:12. | |
Do we have problems with women not being admitted to mosque committees, | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
yes, we do. We have problems with young people, we have problems that | :45:18. | :45:23. | |
nobody is denying, but to wish that away, by changing the whole of | :45:24. | :45:26. | |
Islam, I think that is a big assumption to make. I think it is | :45:27. | :45:32. | |
very important that we remember, as liberals, in a democracy, the | :45:33. | :45:38. | |
difference between religion and state. In public spaces, I do not | :45:39. | :45:43. | |
support forced segregation, but if there is a choice within religious | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
settings, then the state should not intervene. That is different. You | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
mentioned John Locke, and it is lovely to have a bit of | :45:52. | :45:53. | |
enlightenment on the programme. Let's hear from the audience. The | :45:54. | :45:55. | |
lady there, good morning. It seems like Islam does not have a | :45:56. | :46:06. | |
hierarchical system, like a Pope that can dictate what is right or | :46:07. | :46:12. | |
wrong, and accepted. As somebody who is a non-Muslim, how can I decide | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
that someone who is deemed moderate and using the Koran to justify their | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
actions is a Muslim? That is what confuses lots of non-Muslims. The | :46:22. | :46:30. | |
gentle man in the dog collar. Excuse me. In front of you. I am certainly | :46:31. | :46:38. | |
confused about what is a true Muslim. What denomination are you? I | :46:39. | :46:50. | |
am ten to cost Christian. Do you welcome the Church of England | :46:51. | :47:01. | |
bishops? Yes, I do. -- Pentecostal. I cant question would be, which is | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
the true version of Christianity? We are not discussing that. We will | :47:07. | :47:14. | |
come back next week. Go on. Had you finished, I do not think you had? | :47:15. | :47:23. | |
What is a true Muslim? We are talking about British Muslims, which | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
should be distinctively British, which must be different to the Islam | :47:29. | :47:35. | |
of Syria, where people seem to think they have a licence to kill. Very | :47:36. | :47:46. | |
quickly. This needs to be very clear, they think they have a | :47:47. | :47:50. | |
licence to kill, they have a mandate to murder, it is OK, they have a | :47:51. | :48:04. | |
mandate to murder infidels. We are talking about people who have left | :48:05. | :48:07. | |
Islam who have been murdered, but what about the infidels? My question | :48:08. | :48:14. | |
is, where do people like Isis get their oxygen? Do you know what, we | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
have ten minutes left? Norway are we going to get into the complexities | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
of that situation. Please, you have made your point, and thank you for | :48:25. | :48:30. | |
doing so. Let me move it on. There is a lot of confusion between what | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
is cultural and what is religious. This is the first point I wanted to | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
make. Can we talk about radicalisation? DS, but I want to | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
tie this to something important which was ignored, ignored in the | :48:45. | :48:49. | |
discussion. Maybe there is an interest, perhaps for a theological | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
revolution, which would make Islam compatible with Britain. Most of | :48:54. | :49:00. | |
problems we have among the Muslim community, they are not theological, | :49:01. | :49:06. | |
they are economic. It is class? 46% of Muslims live in some of the | :49:07. | :49:09. | |
poorest and most deprived cancels in this country. | :49:10. | :49:16. | |
APPLAUSE The fact that | :49:17. | :49:22. | |
APPLAUSE never had the chance to work, | :49:23. | :49:24. | |
despite the fact that the general national figure is only 4%. This is | :49:25. | :49:30. | |
the heart of the problem. You cannot primarily focus on the theological | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
issues, only cultural issues, when you ignore the wider context. | :49:36. | :49:41. | |
Basically there is a massive sense of marginalisation. Does that | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
marginalisation, that sense of isolation, does it lead to | :49:47. | :49:47. | |
extremism? I understand. I isolation, does it lead to | :49:48. | :49:55. | |
talk about that. There is evidence to suggest that economic deprivation | :49:56. | :50:01. | |
is marginalisation. You cannot completely ignore it. Adam Deen. | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
That is not true of Muslims that are born and bred in the West. They are | :50:06. | :50:08. | |
educated. THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE | :50:09. | :50:20. | |
Let Adam respond. There are factors such as the power vacuum that has | :50:21. | :50:24. | |
been created, the tension between Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims, the | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
invasion of Iraq might, the pulling out of troops from Iraq. These are | :50:30. | :50:37. | |
factors, but to the exception of ideology, it is just pretending. | :50:38. | :50:43. | |
When Emperor of Isis execute someone that is deemed to be a apostate and | :50:44. | :50:53. | |
then shouts the name of Allah. Do you know anyone who has been drawn | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
towards radicalisation, extremism, and if so, why are? Can I make a | :50:58. | :51:04. | |
quick point. We talk about theology and ideology, but no one has | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
mentioned that we have over 300 scholars worldwide come to Marrakesh | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
and have a renovation of scholarly thoughts and Marrakesh. | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
and have a renovation of scholarly about that. We have no. On this | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
issue, the biggest problem we have, until today, I have not met a single | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
issue, the biggest problem we have, person, it is not a big problem, but | :51:27. | :51:31. | |
anyone young person that goes to Syria, even if it is a 16-year-old, | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
making massive political decisions to go there and make this drastic | :51:36. | :51:43. | |
choice. Why are we talking about empowering young people? If Isis die | :51:44. | :51:46. | |
there, seeing to this 16-year-old, you can fly all the way to Syria, | :51:47. | :51:52. | |
and we are telling 16-year-olds that you're not even allowed to vote in | :51:53. | :51:58. | |
an election. We need to include our young people in the debate. It is | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
the lack of critical thinking, just receiving one narrative and not | :52:04. | :52:09. | |
another. You made a valid point, we must look at the factors that lead | :52:10. | :52:12. | |
to a person wanting to commit acts of political violence. You have | :52:13. | :52:19. | |
social, political issues. I have real contentions with people like | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
Adam Deen. They want to focus on the thing that it is a religious | :52:24. | :52:31. | |
phenomenon. If you look at academic studies, I will cite a professor... | :52:32. | :52:41. | |
, on. Listen to my point. It will not affect your funding from the | :52:42. | :52:48. | |
government. Raza is going to finish as point, then I am going to add to | :52:49. | :52:53. | |
respond, and after that, who knows? You have a doctor from Jon Merz | :52:54. | :52:59. | |
University in Liverpool. What does he say? They say, to see it as a | :53:00. | :53:05. | |
religious phenomenon is empirically incorrect. There is no sound study | :53:06. | :53:14. | |
that points to that. The only people that push this idea are the people | :53:15. | :53:18. | |
that sit with the government in this country and say, it is nothing to do | :53:19. | :53:23. | |
with bombing people. It is to do with the understanding of religion. | :53:24. | :53:28. | |
Adam Deen. This is a caricature of my position and the position of the | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
Quilliam Foundation. We understand there are many factors but you | :53:34. | :53:36. | |
cannot deny that religion and ideology play an important part. | :53:37. | :53:44. | |
Whilst I was listening to Raza, Naz made a comment that we are funded by | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
right wing organisations. That is guilt by association. Let's not make | :53:49. | :53:55. | |
it about the Quilliam Foundation. That is guilt by association. | :53:56. | :53:58. | |
THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE . Excuse me, everyone, I want to | :53:59. | :54:04. | |
talk about radicalisation, and the response to what Raza Nadim said, | :54:05. | :54:09. | |
which was interesting. I want to hear more interesting stuff from | :54:10. | :54:15. | |
Adam. I said this before, to deny that ideology plays a part is | :54:16. | :54:22. | |
ridiculous. Let me finish. How is ideology formed? Let him finish. You | :54:23. | :54:32. | |
have to understand the phenomenon of Isis, it is not about ridding | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
foreign fighters from their land, it is about living in this utopian | :54:38. | :54:44. | |
Islamic State. There are gravel Taz comes from operating in an advisor | :54:45. | :54:52. | |
meant -- the gravitas they have comes from operating in an | :54:53. | :54:59. | |
environment of Islamism. The Quilliam Foundation has been | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
mentioned. I do not go five. Because you're part of it. We should be | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
about ideas. The Quilliam Foundation is about counting -- countering | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
radicalisation, by basing it on human rights. I do not understand | :55:13. | :55:18. | |
the problem you have with the Quilliam Foundation. Can you discuss | :55:19. | :55:24. | |
this later run? Yasmin, what did you want to say? I am really tired of | :55:25. | :55:28. | |
this victim narrative. Of course there is deprivation among Muslims | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
in this country, but we are not the only community. If you look at | :55:33. | :55:39. | |
prison statistics, it is disproportionately African Caribbean | :55:40. | :55:43. | |
men. Stop and searches disproportionately African Caribbean | :55:44. | :55:46. | |
men. I am not dismissing the experiences of Muslim people but we | :55:47. | :55:49. | |
have a political representative here. We have representation in the | :55:50. | :55:54. | |
arts, academia, the political processes. We are not this | :55:55. | :56:01. | |
downtrodden community. That is the reality. | :56:02. | :56:02. | |
THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE Fazal Dad. Listen, this little | :56:03. | :56:28. | |
triumvirate is not working for me. I want to start off by saying, I do | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
not know why so much air time is being given to Adam. For goodness' | :56:34. | :56:44. | |
sake. This is a democratic forum. Burnley, Leeds, Bradford. | :56:45. | :56:56. | |
INAUDIBLE This is part of your propaganda. | :56:57. | :57:11. | |
Here's a friend of as well. You were talking about radicalisation and | :57:12. | :57:14. | |
extremism. That is where you stopped and I came in. I did not stop you. | :57:15. | :57:21. | |
Sorry. It is good easier lots of different voices. Let's discuss with | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
each other in a democratic, civilised forum. Absolutely, we | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
should. Rather than giving more person one time than others, that | :57:32. | :57:36. | |
was my problem. Radicalisation does happen. What is extremism? That is | :57:37. | :57:41. | |
the next question. Where does it happen? I wish we all knew. The | :57:42. | :57:48. | |
first thing that the government is trying to say is that it is | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
happening because of religion, they are saying it is happening in the | :57:54. | :57:57. | |
mosques, but categorically it is not. There is not a single case. | :57:58. | :58:03. | |
MI5's leaked report to the Guardian, and the Royal United services report | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
to the Guardian, it gives credence to the sense it is not happening | :58:08. | :58:12. | |
there. It is happening in bedrooms? Exactly. On top of the list, it is | :58:13. | :58:18. | |
social deprivation. It is family breakdown. You have got ten seconds. | :58:19. | :58:27. | |
Then I have to say goodbye. The point I am trying to make is... Make | :58:28. | :58:34. | |
your point quickly. Religion and religious institutions have nothing | :58:35. | :58:37. | |
to do with it. Thank you all very much indeed. I hope you enjoyed it. | :58:38. | :58:45. | |
The debate on Twitter and online continues. Next Sunday in | :58:46. | :58:48. | |
Southampton, thank you very much indeed. | :58:49. | :59:08. | |
Eight famous pensioners are looking to retire to an exotic land... | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
I had never thought about India but...maybe. | :59:13. | :59:15. | |
..enjoying the fantastic local cultures... Ooh! | :59:16. | :59:20. |