Episode 4 The Big Questions


Episode 4

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Today on the big question is, do we need a British Islam? -- today on

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The Big Questions. Good morning. I am Nikki Campbell.

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Welcome to The Big Questions. Today we live from Bradford Grammar School

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in west Yorkshire to debate a very big question. Do we need a British

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Islam. Welcome, everyone, to The Big Questions. Now, is land is the

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fastest-growing religion in the United Kingdom. The 2011 census

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found 2.75 million Muslims in the UK and their numbers are growing ten

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times faster than the general British population. But there is as

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much that divides as unites British Muslims. Their forefathers came from

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very different parts of the world. In Bradford, most Muslims come from

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Pakistan but in London, Bangladeshis are predominant. Others have come

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here from the Caribbean, Africa or the Far East. And then there is the

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converts, 100,000 of them, two thirds women. What unites them all

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is where they live now, Britain. And some British Muslims are now asking

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if the time has come to develop a distinctly British version of Islam.

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So we have gathered together Muslim theologians, academics, social

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activists, scholars, campaigners and politicians to debate that idea. And

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you can join in on Twitter or online by logging on to our website and

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following the links. There will be lots of contributions from our

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excellent, lively local audience here in Bradford. Do we need a

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British Islam? Good morning, everyone. Adam Dean, you made a

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panorama on this about a year ago. What would a British Islam be? What

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would it look like? It would definitely be an Islam that has not

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been hijacked by extremists and fundamentalists, and unfortunately

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one of the greatest challenges we have right now for Islam is that the

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dominant reading of Islam is one that has lost all of its beauty and

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content. So what is an extremist? What is an orthodox Muslim? These

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terms are difficult to define. Yes. What you find within the Muslim

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community is that there is a tension between the rationalist Muslims and

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the anti-rationalist Muslims. Unfortunately, the anti-rationalist

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Muslims are influenced by puritanical readings of Islam, like

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why had is, and they have the upper hand. There are many reasons why

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that is. What does puritanical mean? It is a reading of Islam that is

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literal, divorced from ethics. It is a particular idea that you can only

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understand good and evil, right and wrong from religious scripture. And

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individuals that I would deem to be puritanical have a very literalist

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understanding. I cannot really see the link to extremism. What we have

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to appreciate is that Islam, like Christianity, is a universal

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religion. It is practised by different races in different

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countries. There is no such thing as British Islam, American Islam. Yes,

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the context is different and there are British Muslims, American

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Muslims, but I find it problematic to actually paint all Muslims with

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the same brush and say, you know what, there are are puritanical

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Islam... I do not think he is doing that, with respect. One second,

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please. I take your point, and you have made your point. It is unfair

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to tar everyone with the same brush. I want to ask you a question. Is

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orthodox Islam, is that a problem? Very much so. In my view, there are

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three elements to a distinctive British Islam. The first is respect

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for a plurality of beliefs. Including those that were

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traditionally the boot, like identifying as a progressive Muslim.

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traditionally the boot, like The second element is working

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together towards the common good, as Muslims and

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together towards the common good, as third element is respect for

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equality and human rights. Sadly, this is were some of the more

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conservative elements of Muslim have fallen back. Forgive me, I want to

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get my definition is right. Equality, such as what? Forced

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gender segregation? A prime example is the University's guidance on

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gender segregation in universities, which a coalition of activists and

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groups including Muslims had to work hard to overturn. And it was later

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affirmed by the equality and human rights... Sexual equality? LGBT

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equality. Adam, tell me one theological aspect which you believe

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is no longer applicable to the modern age. Before I do that, I want

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to clarify, there is a caricature understanding of what I say.

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to clarify, there is a caricature think almost limbs are in this

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predicament. I think that the dominating voices within our

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communities are in minority but these individuals that are pushing

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this reading of Islam. You can as the imam a question. The majority of

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these scholars, as an example, that dominate the Islamic discourse,

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believe that it is legitimate to kill an apostate, someone who has

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decided to leave the Islamic faith. That is the epitome of

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irrationality, to kill someone for changing their mind. What is your

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direct question to the Imam? Do you support such a ruling. When you are

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talking about Islam, British Islam, the first thing I would ask you,

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Nicky, as this question ever been asked about any other faith? Do we

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say, what is the British version of Sikhism or Judaism or... ? That is

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my first question. And to his question first. -- and Sir his

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question. I will. We come down to the theological arguments, Islam is

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not just about theological arguments, Islam is all about love

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and peace and respect. But that is just lip service. How much love can

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you have to someone when you kill them for changing your mind. My

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question to you, do you believe there is a problem of extremism

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currently? Do you believe it is a problem? There is absolutely. It is

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exacerbated by people. I will be back with you. There is a

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parenthesis here. A couple of points that need to be explained. First, we

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are living in a time where a lot of Muslims are devoid of ethics. I did

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not say that. Devoid of the ethical element. In West Yorkshire, there

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are floods taking place, and there are Muslims helping their fellow

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citizens. Where is the void of ethics? They are driven by faith.

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That is one important element. He talks about a vocal minority and the

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reality is this. From someone like Adam, who is an outreach Director, a

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laughable title, for the Quilliam Foundation. That is not a pleasant

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thing to say. They keep talking about how these people are taking

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over our country, doing this, subverting British values, and

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really the reality is that if you look at the literature and the

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reality of British Muslims, none of that makes sense. This question of

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British Islam, if you talk to most British Muslims, I'm on about the

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weather, I queue up, I have fish and chips and fried eggs, how much more

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do you want me to integrate? What team do you support? Arsenal. Oh

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dear. I am tired of that question. I think you will agree, you had time

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to make that point and I will be back to you later. People watching

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will think that you did singularly not and Sir Adam's question. To be

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fair, ask the question again. You believe that there is a problem

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within the religious discourse, and element of extremism, and do you

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think we should condemn the ruling on apostates, that we should kill

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them? Is that not a problem? Absolutely. But Islam as freedom of

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choice and you can choose whether you want to be in Islam or out of

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Islam. And there is no compulsion to bring somebody into Islam. But if

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somebody is a Muslim who decides not to be a Muslim, do you think... I

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will come to you in a minute. Please, be patient. Do you believe

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that person should be killed? You are pinning down one single

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argument. The majority of the jurors... Personally, I think that

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person should not be killed. But you are asking me about... Will you let

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me speak. I have stopped. I am going to leave and I will see you all

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later on. Imam, carry on. I personally believe that person

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should not be killed. That is my personal opinion. That's good (!).

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Which is great. Islam is much wider than that. If you look at it that

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way, every single faith and democracy, there is always one or

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two ideas that the majority of people do not agree with. Look at

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the larger picture. There is new ones. I am happy that you believe

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they should not be killed but do you not know that the majority of the

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school of thought actually believes that apostates should be killed and

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that we need to challenge these ideas? We're not going to get any

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further with that. We had a kind of answer. What would you like to say?

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The majority of Muslims would not say they thought they should be

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killed. There is an innate principle in the ground where it says that no

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compulsion should be in the religion. That is the reality. But

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there are a lot of people like you who feed into this anti-Muslim

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narrative that Muslims do not accept anonymous limbs and are unwilling to

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engage with them. And that feeds back into the rise of Islamophobia.

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And who is the victim, someone like me who is participating with the

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wider society, and engaging, and trying to implement the universal

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values of freedom and justice and pluralism that is not restricted by

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secularism only. These are universal values. Universal values. Shared by

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Muslims and many other people. I am sorry to come back to another man,

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but you did say there that this is the problem. What do you mean? The

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problem is that when we accepted these theological ideas, that we

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should kill apostates, and for your information, there is a hadith that

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says kill anyone that changes their religion, and is accepted by three

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schools of thought, potentially four. You need to get your facts

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right. We have hate preachers and scholars visiting university

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campuses that are actually saying, yes, it is OK to kill apostates as

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long as they meet the conditions. That is like saying it is OK to rip

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someone as long as they meet the conditions, it is absurd. Is there a

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place in modern Britain for any kind of judgment on divorce or marriage

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or matters of relationships between two adult people for sharia court?

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Absolutely not. This is why we should not have the British Islam.

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There would not be consensus. I think we have had multiculturalism

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and now we have multi-faith is. What is wrong with sharia court? Are we

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telling minority women what is best for them? But marriage is an act of

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worship in Islam. It is also a contact. Are we saying that Muslim

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women should not have equal opportunities to have access to the

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war in the same way that no muscle women do? There is no regulation of

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sharia courts. They are not courts, they are arbitration councils. It is

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important to not caricature rise -- make a caricature of the whole

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thing. This is vital, because what happens is we end up having a sound

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bites discussion and people need to understand. I would recommend people

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to do some research. The number of sharia courts is grossly

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exaggerated. The numbers come from a research document that says there

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exaggerated. The numbers come from a are about 85, but most are based on

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online websites. The numbers are not clear, they are exaggerated.

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Secondly, the arbitration Council is not legally binding. Thirdly, when

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we talk about sharia court in this way, it leads into a narrative that

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these people are taking over our country, and that is not true. It is

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frustrating that people feed into this narrative. That is not what she

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said. A big part of it is saying that women should not have access to

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our courts. It is important. Who is saying that they shouldn't? The

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reality is that people will go for arbitration within their own

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community as they do. But the law of the land, surely, should overrule

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that? And it does. I have been doing this work for 30 years, and over

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that time, I have seen that Muslim women are being coerced and policed

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by their families. Part of it is also the fault of the government,

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legal aid cuts. Less access to English courts, and actually seeking

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redress from coercion. Let me finish, let me finish. I have seen

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women who said, I do not particularly want to go there but I

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am being told that I have to go there. They do not want to challenge

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am being told that I have to go the judgments because they will be

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seen to be challenging the world word of God. I am not saying it is a

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Muslim problem... There were Jewish arbitration

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tribunal is in operation. That was Tony Blair's government, to use the

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arbitration act to extend it to the Muslim community. Why do we need a

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parallel legal system when we have the English Courts? I have seen

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Muslim tribunal is where women have been told to hand over their

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children to fathers at the age of seven, which is contained within a

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religious texts. seven, which is contained within a

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going to have to seven, which is contained within a

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perpetrator, potentially, usually horrific abuse. They are in a room

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with four men. THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

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It is not acceptable. I work with women from all backgrounds, not just

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Muslim women. I am a Muslim woman, but I work with other women. What

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Yasmin said is more about culture, the oppression of men. We work with

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people the oppression of men. We work with

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violence across the board, it is not just Muslim women. We have cultural

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practices within our family. just Muslim women. We have cultural

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that oppression, so we are not just only working with women from Muslim

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communities. In terms of sharia court, and cancel, some women feel

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comfortable going there, and that is their choice. That is the choice

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they are making. I would like to hear from women. Yasmin. I am really

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tired of that cultural, this is religious. We should separated.

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Please let me finish. Are using that Islam came in a context where there

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was no patriarch your misogyny? THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

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OK, everyone. What about other aspects. Are there any aspects of

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theology that need to be reinterpreted. Sahar, you can maybe

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come to us on this and explain. It is something that is maybe

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misunderstood by people out with sharia -- out with Islam. I woman's

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word is worst -- is worth half that of a man's. How can you as an

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intelligent, professional person except that? I will explain to you.

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That is the thing. There are certain principles in Islam that are

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applicable in certain contexts. The verse that you mention in the Koran,

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it is mentioned in the Koran, but in a certain context. When the woman

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does not have a dependent, she has half of the inheritance. If she is

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in charge of her house, or she is responsible for providing a living

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for her family, she has an equal share of inheritance with men. It is

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not black and white. The word is worth half that of a man's. You have

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to see these cases individually. Two female witnesses for one man, how

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can you accept that? There is a confusion. You're talking about a

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different verse. The sister is talking about another verse. The

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witness is in terms of a contract, for every man there must be two

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women. Puritanical Muslims believe, they extrapolate from that, that I

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woman is less than a man, as a witness. It is not controversial,

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but what they misunderstand is the rationale to the verse. It says, so

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the other one may remind her. It means that women in those times were

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not involved in financial transactions. Where we part with the

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extreme is, in modern society we say that women are engaged in public

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life, involved with financial transactions, and they are

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competent. Extremist Muslims. Mac we are on the same side. -- extremist

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Muslims... The biggest driver of Islamophobia is denial that there is

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a problem to begin with. APPLAUSE

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Can I just finished? As for his jibe at me, making fun of my position at

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the Quilliam Foundation, that is ironic given that the leader of your

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foundation thought that he was persecuted by Mossad because they

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stole his shoe. Maybe there is a serious point, Raza. A leading light

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in your organisation at... No longer. Lots of people lampooned him

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because of the level of scrutiny and intimidation, he was convinced that

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his shoes were stolen by Mossad. You think they were? He has been

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harassed many times. It may be true. It might play to a certain sense of

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persecution, a persecution complex, is Mossad broke in and stole one of

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his shoes. There is an article in the Guardian about how the Stasi had

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employed certain tactics of subversion for individuals in the

:21:37.:21:41.

past. You can read this article, changing the tea bags in people's

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houses, making them feel they are losing their minds.

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THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE The harassment of a Muslim activist

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who speaks out against Israel's occupation of Palestine, who

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criticises the government on Draconian policies, harassment of

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the Muslim is not surprising. Look at what Adam is doing right now. We

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are talking about British Islam, sharia, and he brings in this issue.

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It is very distracting. Now the boot is on the other foot. Let me take it

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over here. Is there a problem with orthodox Islam? Those that believe

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they follow the true path of Islam will find that grossly offensive, an

:22:28.:22:32.

attack on their beliefs? This is the heart of the problem. If you look at

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the entirety of Islamic history, there have been more disagreements

:22:38.:22:40.

among Muslims about the truth than agreements. The current situation is

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not any different. These terms that we are using ad about conservative

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and the extreme Islam. What do you meaning is likely by conservative

:22:53.:22:58.

Islam? If you mean that conservative Islam represents exclusionary ideas,

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if you think that conservative Islam is breeding supremacist ideas, this

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is the heart of the problem. The same terminology is understood in so

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many different ways. This quest to find the truth, it has been going on

:23:14.:23:18.

for a very long time. It goes back to the heart of the discussion about

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if we need a British Islam or not. If you look at the ways in which

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Islam has been manifesting itself throughout history, Islam has been

:23:30.:23:32.

able to fuse itself with different cultures. Sorry. I appreciate your

:23:33.:23:41.

point about the contesting of terms. But what I find about this British

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Islam argument, for me, and many of the youngest ones I have spoken to,

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for me it is the colonial undertones. What does the minority

:23:51.:23:56.

need to do more to fit in with the majority? Integration is a two-way

:23:57.:24:01.

street. David Cameron says that women need to learning Laois to

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combat extremism, but there is no link. All these different things.

:24:07.:24:13.

You have people saying that we are against sharia, and yet George

:24:14.:24:16.

Osborne introduces the first ever Islamic bond system in this country

:24:17.:24:20.

with the Coalition Government. There is no consistency. There is not a

:24:21.:24:27.

single Islamic community in this country. The heart of the problem is

:24:28.:24:31.

there are certain individuals, certain groups, but Mike -- certain

:24:32.:24:46.

groups. Mac nonsense mac -- THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

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There are many interpretations of this.

:24:54.:24:58.

I am sure that Sahar and others would say this is an outrageous

:24:59.:25:03.

thing to say. Wearing avails about equality, about freedom of

:25:04.:25:09.

expression. It is about her articulating her religious and

:25:10.:25:12.

political beliefs. What are you talking about? We have talked about

:25:13.:25:16.

gender segregation but I am talking about the empowerment of women in

:25:17.:25:21.

religious spaces more broadly. Many mosques in the country do not even

:25:22.:25:26.

have adequate space for women. A group of us decided to set up our

:25:27.:25:33.

own. As far as I am aware, it is the only mosque in the country which is

:25:34.:25:38.

open to LGBT people. It creates a space even for ex-Muslims to come

:25:39.:25:44.

to, to come to our events and listen to our perspectives. We need a space

:25:45.:25:49.

that respects different viewpoints. We have not heard from Naz get.

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Let's talk about women in Islam. Anyone who wants to make a point

:25:56.:25:59.

about the position of women in Islam, please put your hand up. I

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will be right with you. Good morning. What I do not understand

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is, you live in Britain, so your loyalty, as far as I'm concerned,

:26:10.:26:14.

should be to Britain. You should abide by the laws of the land, so

:26:15.:26:18.

why are we even talking about sharia cancels? You have laws here that

:26:19.:26:25.

protect equality for women. We have heard the very articulate answer to

:26:26.:26:31.

that from Raza. The gentle man with your hand up. Everyone seems to have

:26:32.:26:35.

these conflicting points on the front row. What if I know nothing

:26:36.:26:43.

about Islam, what Muslim do I talk to to find out? Depending on who you

:26:44.:26:48.

talk to, you get a different version of Islam. It is clueless. Many forms

:26:49.:26:56.

of Islam. This is why this term, the Muslim community, is so meaningless.

:26:57.:27:03.

It is about human beings. Naz Shah, good morning. Your MP for this neck

:27:04.:27:08.

of the woods. Yes, welcome to my constituency. It is good to have you

:27:09.:27:18.

here. What about women in Islam Quad -- women in Islam? Let me make a few

:27:19.:27:25.

points. In terms of women and sharia courts, there is an issue. I am

:27:26.:27:29.

aware of women that have gone that have been encouraged to go back to

:27:30.:27:34.

violent partners. Let's not confuse that with religion. I sit here as a

:27:35.:27:47.

women -- woman who is very anti-Muslim men because of the

:27:48.:27:52.

experience of my mother, and the experiences I had. Forced marriage?

:27:53.:27:57.

Absolutely. 15 years ago, I met some good Muslims who taught me what real

:27:58.:28:02.

Islam was, and I then learned about Islam. I struggled with the fact

:28:03.:28:07.

that the lady over here is saying that we have got a lot. Let me be

:28:08.:28:13.

clear, I campaign nationally against inequalities in the British justice

:28:14.:28:19.

system when it comes to women. Do not tell me that is just an Islamic

:28:20.:28:24.

phenomenon. The British justice system is not equal forward line.

:28:25.:28:28.

Neither is any country. We have inequality. Can I make this point?

:28:29.:28:38.

It is all about direction of travel. Absolutely. In terms of sharia

:28:39.:28:44.

courts, in terms of where they act as media areas, where there are bad

:28:45.:28:50.

practices, we need to rule that out, women should not be encouraged to go

:28:51.:28:54.

back to valid partners are persecuted, children should be held

:28:55.:29:05.

with respect. -- intermediaries. As for the Quilliam Foundation, I will

:29:06.:29:11.

name the organisation. For me, only yesterday I read that the Quilliam

:29:12.:29:15.

Foundation had been knocked back by 45 institutes in Australia who

:29:16.:29:20.

refuse to engage with them. Can I just answer? I have given you the

:29:21.:29:25.

respect to listen to you, and I respect that in return. Going back

:29:26.:29:31.

to the Quilliam Foundation without people, let's be clear, I was

:29:32.:29:37.

tweeted yesterday as a member of the home affairs select omitted. I took

:29:38.:29:43.

evidence from the foundation. The Quilliam Foundation city and tell us

:29:44.:29:50.

we are in denial. To me the Quilliam Foundation is stripped of all

:29:51.:29:55.

credibility. We are in denial of things. In Bradford, there is no

:29:56.:30:00.

denial, there is an issue of radicalisation and safeguarding.

:30:01.:30:04.

There is an issue of safeguarding people were the likes of Daesh reach

:30:05.:30:09.

into our homes through social media and the Internet. Nobody is denying

:30:10.:30:14.

that. Where we are different is our response to that issue.

:30:15.:30:19.

We will address some of those issues of radicalisation and security in a

:30:20.:30:28.

few moments. Thanks for that, it was very cute. But it is nothing to do

:30:29.:30:33.

with religion. When we say that religion has something to do with

:30:34.:30:37.

sharia courts and partners going back to their spouses and being

:30:38.:30:44.

victims of domestic violence, you say we need to make a distinction

:30:45.:30:48.

with religion, but the point of going to a sharia Council is because

:30:49.:30:52.

of religion. One of the reasons they used to justify turning back to

:30:53.:30:54.

abusive partners is because they believe the mandate about women. Not

:30:55.:31:00.

in all cases, but in some cases, we must... Let me finish. There is a

:31:01.:31:07.

sense of denial here that there is a problem in the way we read the

:31:08.:31:13.

Koran. I do not believe that the Koran mandates beating women but a

:31:14.:31:17.

lot of Muslim scholars do. Let me finish. Imam, where the minute. Can

:31:18.:31:29.

I ask you a question. Can I ask a question about sharia courts? We

:31:30.:31:34.

have kind of moved on. When you are saying, is there a difference system

:31:35.:31:38.

altogether, not at all. We have the laws of this country, and sharia

:31:39.:31:42.

courts are not two parallel systems, they are there to subtly amended the

:31:43.:31:48.

courts that are already there. And the second thing that comes in,

:31:49.:31:52.

those women who are going to the sharia councils, I don't know where

:31:53.:31:55.

the court system came from, originally it was a sharia Council.

:31:56.:32:00.

They are going on their own accord. Nobody is asking them. Yasmin

:32:01.:32:10.

disagrees. There is a couple of points. That was a key point about

:32:11.:32:13.

the of their own accord. Two responses. Naz Shah and others were

:32:14.:32:19.

involved in this personal case. And I was part of that. We have seen the

:32:20.:32:24.

English courts develop a society develops. My issue is that we are

:32:25.:32:29.

setting up a parallel system. The other thing is that it is

:32:30.:32:33.

reductionist. That is what I'm saying, a parallel system. It should

:32:34.:32:37.

be the system. But in my experience... Can you let her? Can

:32:38.:32:43.

you let her speak? She had not finished. You can actually achieve a

:32:44.:32:49.

lot of these things from a normal English magistrates as well. What

:32:50.:32:58.

you are talking about... That can be... Steady, go. Can I make this

:32:59.:33:04.

point? I have vast experience of women who do not want to go to those

:33:05.:33:11.

systems, but are pressured. OK. I have also seen in situations where

:33:12.:33:17.

men, Jewish men and musclemen withhold religious divorces. And

:33:18.:33:24.

that can hold up proceedings and there is huge pressure in terms of

:33:25.:33:29.

child custody. -- Muslim men. My issue with this, why do we need a

:33:30.:33:37.

supplementary system? We spent some time discussing sharia law. But it

:33:38.:33:43.

is reductionist. We talk about minority women, they have a culture.

:33:44.:33:48.

But are we just Muslims? Are we nothing else? Does our national and

:33:49.:33:53.

ethnic identity matter for nothing? I want to talk... I am desperately

:33:54.:33:58.

trying to steer the conversation to that. We heard from Naz Shah about

:33:59.:34:05.

forced marriage, saying that a lot of these things are cultural. Do you

:34:06.:34:15.

think, Nahid, when we are talking about things like forced marriage

:34:16.:34:19.

and female genital mutilation, nothing to do with religion, forced

:34:20.:34:23.

marriage, wearing the veil, some argue that is an ideological issue

:34:24.:34:28.

and some argue it is not, but do you think that there are many Muslims

:34:29.:34:32.

who believe it is part of an Islam -- part of Islam when it is not? If

:34:33.:34:36.

that is the case, there is a problem, isn't there? That is the

:34:37.:34:42.

problem we see every day because people, they do not know anything

:34:43.:34:45.

about true Islam. And if there are Muslims believe that, you can bet

:34:46.:34:48.

there will be no muscle to believe that. And Muslims come from all

:34:49.:34:52.

parts of the world. Not just India, Pakistani or Bangladesh. Muslims

:34:53.:34:59.

bring their culture. They confuse their culture with religion. It does

:35:00.:35:07.

not represent the true Islam. Who can represent the true Islam? But I

:35:08.:35:11.

have been working with women from all cultures. They are facing these

:35:12.:35:15.

problems again and again. Across the board. Also, a lot of these women

:35:16.:35:20.

come to us and they wanted to go through sharia law. A lot of the

:35:21.:35:26.

scholars said, if you have a divorce from the court, it is acceptable.

:35:27.:35:33.

That is what they said. But some of the women, this is a choice because

:35:34.:35:37.

they want to feel comfortable to go to sharia courts. Because we did not

:35:38.:35:44.

want them to face that oppression. Islam does not believe in oppression

:35:45.:35:48.

or oppressing other people. But there are cultural aspects there in.

:35:49.:35:55.

Violence is oppression. That is what I believe. I have to say, there is

:35:56.:36:01.

nuance. There is some coercion, but there is choice to it. You keep

:36:02.:36:06.

shaking your head but there is choice involved. Regarding the point

:36:07.:36:12.

about women and segregation, them being denied rights, it is not a

:36:13.:36:16.

religious only phenomena. It is something that exists in our

:36:17.:36:19.

society. Look at unequal pay for in this country. But this is the

:36:20.:36:24.

direction of travel, you understand that. I feel that it is part of

:36:25.:36:28.

white privilege. Any case... What does that mean, white privilege? If

:36:29.:36:36.

a Muslim commits a crime, it is indicative of a wider problem within

:36:37.:36:39.

their culture, their religion. But if you have someone from white,

:36:40.:36:45.

Christian background, like the University of Lancaster who said

:36:46.:36:48.

after the World Cup there was a 33% increase in domestic violence cases

:36:49.:36:51.

after people watch football matches in the UK. They are not all Muslims.

:36:52.:36:56.

But you would not say that this is an indicative of the white,

:36:57.:36:59.

Christian problem, because the criminal is separate from his

:37:00.:37:04.

ethnicity and religion. But when it comes to Muslims, they are not?

:37:05.:37:14.

Yasmin, respond. Are we partly to blame as Muslims? Eerily out of. We

:37:15.:37:20.

were salvation, back in the 70s, and then Salman Rushdie came with the

:37:21.:37:29.

Satanic verses affair. That is where Muslim identity really came to the

:37:30.:37:34.

fore. And then you had community leaders who came forward and said,

:37:35.:37:37.

this is the identity box that we will fit. Don't downplay Bosnia. You

:37:38.:37:46.

said let's just focus on Salman Rushdie. No, you

:37:47.:37:52.

said let's just focus on Salman other down. I'm telling you. Tell me

:37:53.:38:04.

about the issue that gets a lot of people really exercised, gender

:38:05.:38:10.

segregation in public places. Some people see that

:38:11.:38:14.

segregation in public places. Some get infuriated. They see it as

:38:15.:38:15.

being, if you will allow me to say, get infuriated. They see it as

:38:16.:38:24.

contrary to Western liberal society. We're sitting here, mixing

:38:25.:38:28.

contrary to Western liberal society. and it is fine. I am

:38:29.:38:28.

contrary to Western liberal society. that, I have no problem with that.

:38:29.:38:33.

What is the argument for gender segregation, because it is a lively

:38:34.:38:39.

debate. It is not a topic that should be even discussed. Not even

:38:40.:38:46.

discussed?! Muslims are being singled out for every single

:38:47.:38:48.

practice. Why is that? singled out for every single

:38:49.:38:56.

yet it is never mentioned. singled out for every single

:38:57.:39:03.

associate it with singled out for every single

:39:04.:39:06.

or anything. We discussed domestic violence on a regular basis. They

:39:07.:39:10.

or anything. We discussed domestic are in segregation, which is not

:39:11.:39:15.

true. It is white, brown, black. Some Muslims, can I finish two you

:39:16.:39:23.

should be free to wear whatever you want to wear. --

:39:24.:39:27.

should be free to wear whatever you should be free to wear whatever you

:39:28.:39:32.

want to wear. Some issues are not reported on but it is an issue.

:39:33.:39:35.

want to wear. Some issues are not made your point, but Adam Deen,

:39:36.:39:37.

there are political meetings, and people are separate, Zaha says it is

:39:38.:39:50.

not an issue and it should not be discussed... But there are women

:39:51.:39:54.

only events that women chose to organise and they wanted it to be

:39:55.:39:58.

that way. But in public spaces. Do you respect people who find it

:39:59.:39:59.

offensive? Can I just say, women in you respect people who find it

:40:00.:40:09.

organisations and they are not Muslim organisations, they came

:40:10.:40:12.

together to be together. Why? Because they felt comfortable. What

:40:13.:40:19.

is going on here with this. It is an issue that we should discuss because

:40:20.:40:27.

people find it offensive and cannot understand why it is women only this

:40:28.:40:31.

or men only this, but this is forced segregation. Is this a problem? Is

:40:32.:40:38.

at a choice? It is a choice when it takes place in a public university?

:40:39.:40:43.

No, it is not, it is a small group of people and forcing their brand on

:40:44.:40:47.

people who disagree with that. And when a public body like a university

:40:48.:40:53.

gives credence to narrow, Conservative interpretations of

:40:54.:40:56.

Islam, unchallenged, then we have a problem. But Sahar Al-Faifi is

:40:57.:41:04.

saying, that are they being forced? Are their security people saying,

:41:05.:41:08.

you sit here, you sit there? But the situations are created so that

:41:09.:41:12.

anyone who descents or publicly opposes this particular

:41:13.:41:15.

interpretation of Islam is treated as a pariah, and that has to stop.

:41:16.:41:19.

The progressive interpretation needs to be given rater space in Muslim

:41:20.:41:25.

discourse. And that is not happening at the moment. It is not a

:41:26.:41:32.

theological thing, it is a preference. But it is a little

:41:33.:41:38.

disingenuous. Excuse me, everyone! I will be with you in second. Tehmina

:41:39.:41:46.

Kazi, what would you like to say? What I want to say is that forced

:41:47.:41:49.

segregation, it is not really a big issue within the Muslim community.

:41:50.:41:54.

There are so many mixed events. Muslim women are happy to... Let me

:41:55.:41:58.

put it to you. I understand, let me put this to you. Please listen to

:41:59.:42:04.

me. Why are we demonising muscle and is? I want to ask your question! I

:42:05.:42:09.

want to ask a question. Do you have respect for people who see it and

:42:10.:42:17.

see it as inimical to our society when they see men and women in

:42:18.:42:20.

public spaces sitting apart? Do you respect to their position? What I

:42:21.:42:25.

want to say, we need a mutual understanding. I want to know, why

:42:26.:42:29.

did she come to this view. Did she really attend this event? As she

:42:30.:42:33.

interacted with these women? I wanted to know, how did you actually

:42:34.:42:38.

conclude that? A lot of women choose to wear, they choose to sit within

:42:39.:42:45.

their own group in a venue. Let her answer the question. Let her answer

:42:46.:42:53.

the question. If you were in a restaurant, sitting on a table.

:42:54.:42:59.

Letter, please, and to the question. I have had to sit at a gender

:43:00.:43:03.

segregated event at a university Islamic society where I could not

:43:04.:43:07.

even ask questions because it was deemed to be immoral. I had to ask

:43:08.:43:11.

my question on a piece of paper and give it to someone to take up to the

:43:12.:43:20.

front. Adam Deen. It is important to say that the problem does exist and

:43:21.:43:23.

it is an obsession with sex. There is a reading of Islam that is

:43:24.:43:31.

obsessed with sex and the potential situation where you may suddenly

:43:32.:43:34.

have some sexual encounter with some women. But to put it into context,

:43:35.:43:40.

this is not a widespread problem. It is a small minority of Muslims as a

:43:41.:43:49.

whole. But what I am saying is... Please, let him finish,. You really

:43:50.:43:54.

don't like me but we can talk afterwards. Audience in a minute.

:43:55.:44:04.

Adam Deen. Please, I will put the kettle on and we can have a cup of

:44:05.:44:10.

tea. It is not widespread. We had to put it into context but the point is

:44:11.:44:15.

that it is disingenuous to say that it has nothing to do with religion.

:44:16.:44:18.

There are individuals believe it is prohibitive to free mix. Good

:44:19.:44:25.

morning. It is interesting when one of the biggest phenomenon is

:44:26.:44:29.

attracting Islam today is people hijacking his land, people like

:44:30.:44:36.

Daesh, who attract people in this country, but young people do not get

:44:37.:44:40.

a say on these platforms. Maybe it is because you believe they should

:44:41.:44:44.

not have a say. One point that might make me get attacked from both

:44:45.:44:48.

sides... I will protect you. I think we have to understand that there are

:44:49.:44:53.

issues. I think we have mistake or argument. When we talk about what

:44:54.:44:57.

British Islam is, are we talking about our mosques, that they should

:44:58.:45:00.

be built in a British fashion, without minarets? Do you find that

:45:01.:45:06.

bizarre? I do, I think that will take away the alienation of Muslims.

:45:07.:45:12.

Do we have problems with women not being admitted to mosque committees,

:45:13.:45:17.

yes, we do. We have problems with young people, we have problems that

:45:18.:45:23.

nobody is denying, but to wish that away, by changing the whole of

:45:24.:45:26.

Islam, I think that is a big assumption to make. I think it is

:45:27.:45:32.

very important that we remember, as liberals, in a democracy, the

:45:33.:45:38.

difference between religion and state. In public spaces, I do not

:45:39.:45:43.

support forced segregation, but if there is a choice within religious

:45:44.:45:47.

settings, then the state should not intervene. That is different. You

:45:48.:45:51.

mentioned John Locke, and it is lovely to have a bit of

:45:52.:45:53.

enlightenment on the programme. Let's hear from the audience. The

:45:54.:45:55.

lady there, good morning. It seems like Islam does not have a

:45:56.:46:06.

hierarchical system, like a Pope that can dictate what is right or

:46:07.:46:12.

wrong, and accepted. As somebody who is a non-Muslim, how can I decide

:46:13.:46:16.

that someone who is deemed moderate and using the Koran to justify their

:46:17.:46:21.

actions is a Muslim? That is what confuses lots of non-Muslims. The

:46:22.:46:30.

gentle man in the dog collar. Excuse me. In front of you. I am certainly

:46:31.:46:38.

confused about what is a true Muslim. What denomination are you? I

:46:39.:46:50.

am ten to cost Christian. Do you welcome the Church of England

:46:51.:47:01.

bishops? Yes, I do. -- Pentecostal. I cant question would be, which is

:47:02.:47:06.

the true version of Christianity? We are not discussing that. We will

:47:07.:47:14.

come back next week. Go on. Had you finished, I do not think you had?

:47:15.:47:23.

What is a true Muslim? We are talking about British Muslims, which

:47:24.:47:28.

should be distinctively British, which must be different to the Islam

:47:29.:47:35.

of Syria, where people seem to think they have a licence to kill. Very

:47:36.:47:46.

quickly. This needs to be very clear, they think they have a

:47:47.:47:50.

licence to kill, they have a mandate to murder, it is OK, they have a

:47:51.:48:04.

mandate to murder infidels. We are talking about people who have left

:48:05.:48:07.

Islam who have been murdered, but what about the infidels? My question

:48:08.:48:14.

is, where do people like Isis get their oxygen? Do you know what, we

:48:15.:48:19.

have ten minutes left? Norway are we going to get into the complexities

:48:20.:48:24.

of that situation. Please, you have made your point, and thank you for

:48:25.:48:30.

doing so. Let me move it on. There is a lot of confusion between what

:48:31.:48:34.

is cultural and what is religious. This is the first point I wanted to

:48:35.:48:39.

make. Can we talk about radicalisation? DS, but I want to

:48:40.:48:44.

tie this to something important which was ignored, ignored in the

:48:45.:48:49.

discussion. Maybe there is an interest, perhaps for a theological

:48:50.:48:53.

revolution, which would make Islam compatible with Britain. Most of

:48:54.:49:00.

problems we have among the Muslim community, they are not theological,

:49:01.:49:06.

they are economic. It is class? 46% of Muslims live in some of the

:49:07.:49:09.

poorest and most deprived cancels in this country.

:49:10.:49:16.

APPLAUSE The fact that

:49:17.:49:22.

APPLAUSE never had the chance to work,

:49:23.:49:24.

despite the fact that the general national figure is only 4%. This is

:49:25.:49:30.

the heart of the problem. You cannot primarily focus on the theological

:49:31.:49:35.

issues, only cultural issues, when you ignore the wider context.

:49:36.:49:41.

Basically there is a massive sense of marginalisation. Does that

:49:42.:49:46.

marginalisation, that sense of isolation, does it lead to

:49:47.:49:47.

extremism? I understand. I isolation, does it lead to

:49:48.:49:55.

talk about that. There is evidence to suggest that economic deprivation

:49:56.:50:01.

is marginalisation. You cannot completely ignore it. Adam Deen.

:50:02.:50:05.

That is not true of Muslims that are born and bred in the West. They are

:50:06.:50:08.

educated. THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

:50:09.:50:20.

Let Adam respond. There are factors such as the power vacuum that has

:50:21.:50:24.

been created, the tension between Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims, the

:50:25.:50:29.

invasion of Iraq might, the pulling out of troops from Iraq. These are

:50:30.:50:37.

factors, but to the exception of ideology, it is just pretending.

:50:38.:50:43.

When Emperor of Isis execute someone that is deemed to be a apostate and

:50:44.:50:53.

then shouts the name of Allah. Do you know anyone who has been drawn

:50:54.:50:57.

towards radicalisation, extremism, and if so, why are? Can I make a

:50:58.:51:04.

quick point. We talk about theology and ideology, but no one has

:51:05.:51:09.

mentioned that we have over 300 scholars worldwide come to Marrakesh

:51:10.:51:14.

and have a renovation of scholarly thoughts and Marrakesh.

:51:15.:51:18.

and have a renovation of scholarly about that. We have no. On this

:51:19.:51:22.

issue, the biggest problem we have, until today, I have not met a single

:51:23.:51:26.

issue, the biggest problem we have, person, it is not a big problem, but

:51:27.:51:31.

anyone young person that goes to Syria, even if it is a 16-year-old,

:51:32.:51:35.

making massive political decisions to go there and make this drastic

:51:36.:51:43.

choice. Why are we talking about empowering young people? If Isis die

:51:44.:51:46.

there, seeing to this 16-year-old, you can fly all the way to Syria,

:51:47.:51:52.

and we are telling 16-year-olds that you're not even allowed to vote in

:51:53.:51:58.

an election. We need to include our young people in the debate. It is

:51:59.:52:03.

the lack of critical thinking, just receiving one narrative and not

:52:04.:52:09.

another. You made a valid point, we must look at the factors that lead

:52:10.:52:12.

to a person wanting to commit acts of political violence. You have

:52:13.:52:19.

social, political issues. I have real contentions with people like

:52:20.:52:23.

Adam Deen. They want to focus on the thing that it is a religious

:52:24.:52:31.

phenomenon. If you look at academic studies, I will cite a professor...

:52:32.:52:41.

, on. Listen to my point. It will not affect your funding from the

:52:42.:52:48.

government. Raza is going to finish as point, then I am going to add to

:52:49.:52:53.

respond, and after that, who knows? You have a doctor from Jon Merz

:52:54.:52:59.

University in Liverpool. What does he say? They say, to see it as a

:53:00.:53:05.

religious phenomenon is empirically incorrect. There is no sound study

:53:06.:53:14.

that points to that. The only people that push this idea are the people

:53:15.:53:18.

that sit with the government in this country and say, it is nothing to do

:53:19.:53:23.

with bombing people. It is to do with the understanding of religion.

:53:24.:53:28.

Adam Deen. This is a caricature of my position and the position of the

:53:29.:53:33.

Quilliam Foundation. We understand there are many factors but you

:53:34.:53:36.

cannot deny that religion and ideology play an important part.

:53:37.:53:44.

Whilst I was listening to Raza, Naz made a comment that we are funded by

:53:45.:53:48.

right wing organisations. That is guilt by association. Let's not make

:53:49.:53:55.

it about the Quilliam Foundation. That is guilt by association.

:53:56.:53:58.

THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE . Excuse me, everyone, I want to

:53:59.:54:04.

talk about radicalisation, and the response to what Raza Nadim said,

:54:05.:54:09.

which was interesting. I want to hear more interesting stuff from

:54:10.:54:15.

Adam. I said this before, to deny that ideology plays a part is

:54:16.:54:22.

ridiculous. Let me finish. How is ideology formed? Let him finish. You

:54:23.:54:32.

have to understand the phenomenon of Isis, it is not about ridding

:54:33.:54:37.

foreign fighters from their land, it is about living in this utopian

:54:38.:54:44.

Islamic State. There are gravel Taz comes from operating in an advisor

:54:45.:54:52.

meant -- the gravitas they have comes from operating in an

:54:53.:54:59.

environment of Islamism. The Quilliam Foundation has been

:55:00.:55:03.

mentioned. I do not go five. Because you're part of it. We should be

:55:04.:55:07.

about ideas. The Quilliam Foundation is about counting -- countering

:55:08.:55:12.

radicalisation, by basing it on human rights. I do not understand

:55:13.:55:18.

the problem you have with the Quilliam Foundation. Can you discuss

:55:19.:55:24.

this later run? Yasmin, what did you want to say? I am really tired of

:55:25.:55:28.

this victim narrative. Of course there is deprivation among Muslims

:55:29.:55:32.

in this country, but we are not the only community. If you look at

:55:33.:55:39.

prison statistics, it is disproportionately African Caribbean

:55:40.:55:43.

men. Stop and searches disproportionately African Caribbean

:55:44.:55:46.

men. I am not dismissing the experiences of Muslim people but we

:55:47.:55:49.

have a political representative here. We have representation in the

:55:50.:55:54.

arts, academia, the political processes. We are not this

:55:55.:56:01.

downtrodden community. That is the reality.

:56:02.:56:02.

THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE Fazal Dad. Listen, this little

:56:03.:56:28.

triumvirate is not working for me. I want to start off by saying, I do

:56:29.:56:33.

not know why so much air time is being given to Adam. For goodness'

:56:34.:56:44.

sake. This is a democratic forum. Burnley, Leeds, Bradford.

:56:45.:56:56.

INAUDIBLE This is part of your propaganda.

:56:57.:57:11.

Here's a friend of as well. You were talking about radicalisation and

:57:12.:57:14.

extremism. That is where you stopped and I came in. I did not stop you.

:57:15.:57:21.

Sorry. It is good easier lots of different voices. Let's discuss with

:57:22.:57:27.

each other in a democratic, civilised forum. Absolutely, we

:57:28.:57:31.

should. Rather than giving more person one time than others, that

:57:32.:57:36.

was my problem. Radicalisation does happen. What is extremism? That is

:57:37.:57:41.

the next question. Where does it happen? I wish we all knew. The

:57:42.:57:48.

first thing that the government is trying to say is that it is

:57:49.:57:53.

happening because of religion, they are saying it is happening in the

:57:54.:57:57.

mosques, but categorically it is not. There is not a single case.

:57:58.:58:03.

MI5's leaked report to the Guardian, and the Royal United services report

:58:04.:58:07.

to the Guardian, it gives credence to the sense it is not happening

:58:08.:58:12.

there. It is happening in bedrooms? Exactly. On top of the list, it is

:58:13.:58:18.

social deprivation. It is family breakdown. You have got ten seconds.

:58:19.:58:27.

Then I have to say goodbye. The point I am trying to make is... Make

:58:28.:58:34.

your point quickly. Religion and religious institutions have nothing

:58:35.:58:37.

to do with it. Thank you all very much indeed. I hope you enjoyed it.

:58:38.:58:45.

The debate on Twitter and online continues. Next Sunday in

:58:46.:58:48.

Southampton, thank you very much indeed.

:58:49.:59:08.

Eight famous pensioners are looking to retire to an exotic land...

:59:09.:59:12.

I had never thought about India but...maybe.

:59:13.:59:15.

..enjoying the fantastic local cultures... Ooh!

:59:16.:59:20.

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