Graeme Swann Extra Time

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Now on BBC News it's

time for Extra Time.

Welcome to Extra Time. Last month,

Australia's vice-captain, David

Warner, likened the fort coming

Ashes series against England to war,

saying that he was looking for

hatred to motivate his team-mates.

Hyperbolic language, of course, but

it gets under way in a few days from

now. Our guest Graeme Swann knows

all about pommie bashing. 18 of his

matches were against the Aussies,

eight of them in Australia. When he

says the Ashes are all in the mind,

does he believe England are prepared

for the mental challenge coming

their way? Welcome to Extra Time.

First test at Brisbane's The Gabba.

They don't call it The Gabba for

nothing. It's like being in boundary

control in front of the hostile

fines?

I wouldn't know, I was always

sensible enough to be in the slips

so I wouldn't know it. But it's

true, the noise can be incredible.

The whole stadium, it's like a cake

tin sort of thing. It enveloped the

grounds and it's all as one.

Wasn't

designed for the acoustic in a way?

Maybe. I remember going out to bad

there in 2010. I was the ball after

Stuart Broad had become Peter

Siddle's hat-trick. The noise was

the most ferocious.

Can you pick out

the insults?

No.

If you were on the

boundary, you probably could?

We

always used to laugh about them,

because they're not particularly

witty. The Australian crowds, in

fact, world crowds, haven't got the

self-depricating wit that an English

crowd has. If you've been to a

football game and hear some of more

intelligent things that are said,

not saying that everything said at a

football game is intelligent, but

it's not in the same league. As an

Englishman, you're able to sit back

and laugh at how much further we

are. Let's face it, if you've gone

to a game of sport just to shout

abuse to the men in the middle,

there's something missing in your

life.

Almost half of the 16-man

England squad have never experienced

an ash ashes test before. How are

they likely to cope with this new

experience?

You never know, it's

sink or swim. One thing that I hope

that they remember and that I hope

the psychology team have been

drumming in is that it really

doesn't matter. Everything going on,

all the and voices and press

intrusion, it doesn't matter at all.

At the end of the day, when you

stand there and the ball comes down

there, it doesn't affect the ball in

any way.

Easy to say that in the

atmosphere of a studio.

It is, but

once you're playing international

sport, these are the things you

should be able to control and the

best players in the world should be

able to control that and shut off

all the exterior noise because once

you've found a mechanism to cope

with it, it's not that hard to do.

We'll talk about psychology in a

moment, but thinking about captain

Joe Root. He's only played in four

tests in Australia. He hasn't got

much experience with with to inform

the younger members of his squad,

has he?

He's not. And I think every

captain needs to use whatever his

particular strengths are.

Which

would be what, for Joe?

For Joe,

it's his body language, the way he

plays the game. He's a naturally

aggressive batsman when he's at the

crease. If he goes out and bats like

that, puffs his chest out, takes on

the Aussie bowlers, the Australians

don't like people taking them on.

The reason they sledge as a nation,

the nation's psych is to belittle

and they want you to be a rabbit in

the head lights and be a shrinking

violet. They hate people to stand up

to them and take them on in their

own game. Joe does that, not with

words, but with his actions. You saw

that in the way he batted in the

last Ashes in England, in the first

Test Match in Cardiff. He was

dropped and then he played a

brilliant counterattacking,

aggressive innings and scored 100.

And the whole team feeds off that.

They watch him play. So, all right,

if Joe's doing it, he's our leader,

we will follow. That's what he needs

to do in Australia.

It's almost like

you're describing right now the

strategy to counter a bully?

It's

exactly that. It is easy to say. If

you've been bullied as a child, you

go home and your mum and dad will

say, sticks and bones may break your

bones. But if there's a bully in the

play ground, there's a real

possibility that you'll be

physically hurt. You can't get

physically hurt about a crowd

shouting at you and your parentage,

especially when most it is

unfounded. You need to found a

mechanism to get through it. Every

sportsman at some stage has had

horrific things shouted at them from

the crowd. I think we're actually

getting towards a stage where the

tolerance levels of those around the

people accusing the crowd is raised

and they're not going to put up with

that any more. Sorry, it's fallen.

They're not going to come up with

physical and mental abuse thrown

towards someone's family members.

I'm glad you mentioned that, because

I was going to ask you where the

line gets crossed?

There's a huge

thing that's put up before every

international cricket game on the

board saying the ICC will not

tolerate any sort of abuse or

aggression that discriminates

because of skin colour, because of

gender, sexual orientation.

Basically, everything that you

shouldn't, and rightly so. But of

course... But every insult is one of

those things. And it's lip service.

It's put up on the board, but it's

not adhered to. It's to tick a box,

as we all know in this world, a lot

of people do that. They cover their

own backs. It would be interesting

if they actually followed through

because a couple of crowds, there

were 300 people left in the park on

the first day!

There are a few

things to counter that with. The

threat of physical violence also, is

pretty borderline. There was a

famous occasion when Michael Clarke,

Australian batsman, who was captain

at the time, said to your mate,

Jimmy Anderson, get red for a

broken, expletive, deleted, arm.

If

any Australian is going to threaten

you on the feel, little Michael

Clarke, bless him. And Jimmy didn't

remember that. He doesn't stoop to

threats like that. But it was only

because it was picked up by the

cameras, picked up by the stump

line. And to be honest, the

intrusion into the middle of the

stump mics and cameras, Michael

Clarke got a lot of criticism for

that. That's been happening for 35,

even longer, even a book that I

wrote about it, it's been happening

for 100 years. And as media, if

you're then putting it out to the

crowd but then blaming the players,

it's actually your responsibility.

The director had the choice when he

heard that to not put it out on air,

but he chose to.

He's a producer and

he has to be quick with the

microphone, that's the point.

There's no need for the microphone

there if you ask me. Because things

do get said. Stupid things, in

jokes. Remember when England played

India a few years ago and they were

joking about cars, about Porsches

and someone in the media said that

England players are trying to

degrade their Indian counterparts

and being elitist, saying, we drive

Porsches. What they didn't realise

is that all the Indian players were

multimillionaires and the English

players were not. What the English

players were doing was trying to get

free product sent to them because

somebody mentioned that a champagne

bottle was sent to them in the

change room. And they said, I

wouldn't mind getting a Porsche or a

Lambert! There's always -- or a or a

Porsche.

You've given it and you've

obviously taken it as well. In terms

of your hip trade of sledging

remarks, I suppose, the point is,

they've got to be funny?

Well, the

thing is with sledging, a huge thing

is made of it. It happens so few and

far between on the field, funny

things. And they're brilliant for

afternoon speeches and all the ones

I've got, I can't say any of them on

the TV. I very rarely said anything

as a spin bowler. If I swore at

someone, I couldn't bowl the next

one. I kept my mouth shut. But you

do get a few things said to you. But

none of them are funny. Some of the

old stories are funny. This is the

media hyping things up. We live in a

day of 24-7 news and something has

to be interesting and you said at

the top of the programme about David

Warner saying that he wants war and

hatred. That is just a player who's

buying into this pathetic hyperbole

that's been built around the Ashes,

especially around the time of

November 11, to come around with

comments like that is mind-blowingly

naive and stupid. I sincerely hope

he regrets it all because it's

mind-blowingly out of order. It's

not war, it's not hatred. If you

hate someone because they're from

Australia, or an Australian hates

someone because they're from

England, you really do have to have

a strong look at yourself in the

mirror.

Anyway, it goes on to a

lesser or greater degree, and in a

sense, it's all about preparing

yourself, mentally, for that kind of

atmosphere. You've been fairly

outspoken on how England set up, has

failed to properly address this

aspect of test cricket. You said you

believe that English cricket has too

long gone away from the

strengthening, it won't make a

difference if the player's mind is

not clear and positive.

I think this

is cricket on the whole. Once you

get to the level of test cricket,

that top level, that superlative

level, technically you're able to do

that. Physically you're strong

enough to play it. 90% of test

cricket is in you are why head and

you've got to find ways of working

out exactly coping mechanisms for

so-called pressure.

Would you say

England are behind the other nations

in this?

I don't know any nation

who's ahead or behind. Mental

illness, let's face it, until very

recently, has had a real stigma

attached to it. Someone was like the

village idiot, stay away from him.

But now people are realising, it's

not your fault if you're mentally

ill, how can we aggress that? And

because of mental illness having a

stigma, in this country especially,

and America is very different. You

know over there, they see shrinks,

psychologists, not for bad things.

They see them anyway for good

things, for positive reasons. That's

what sport should do. I truly

believe that's what cricket should

do. If you've got someone good

enough to get to that top level, all

you can say is technically, we have

batting, bowling, fielding, massage

therapists, bus drivers, security. I

think there should be a team of

psychologists, tip no Torres Strait

Islanders -- hypnotists. They will

get out there and succeed.

So you're

speaking up here for the benefits of

psychology. What about you? Have you

understaken it? And if so, how

useful was it?

I never thought I

did. I mean, we had psychologists,

Mark Boden. But I never found

anything with him that worked

especially well for me. I always

found myself fairly blessed that I

didn't need it, or so I thought.

But

others did?

I used to go around the

change room and see people visibly

nervous before the day's play and I

tended to gravitate towards the

people who weren't nervous. So

Alastair Cook and Jimmy Anderson

were my closest in the dressing room

because they didn't seem bothered at

all. I liked that. It was good for

the soul. That's me as well. It was

only the first day I walked into the

Oval in London as a journalist for

BBC, rather than a player, as I

walked through the gate, the

physical difference. I mean, it was

like there was no weight on my

shoulder. I breezed into the ground.

And at that point, realised why I'd

done well throughout my career

because I'd convinced myself that it

didn't matter, that I wasn't

bothered. Of course it does, it did.

It's a big deal, you're on TV:

And nerves are natural and can

sometimes propel you to a good

performance?

The people who use

nerves to propel them to a good

performance are the people who have

got it cracked. Nerves or pressure,

it's the same thing. A feeling of

uneasiness. You're not settled,

you're not in your comfort zone. But

it can all be channelled in a

positive way. I was quite lucky. I

managed to do it by convincing

myself that I couldn't give a

monkeys. This is fine. A walk in the

park. The sun will come up tomorrow.

But I surrounded myself with people

who inflated my tyres, who talked

exactly the same way. My spin

bowling coach, the greatest man I've

ever met. Greatest coach. Never

spoke technically. We never talked

about spin bowling, ever. All he'd

say is, we'd stand there and say, Mr

Swann, at the end of the day, if you

don't get any wickets, who cares,

you've got a beautiful wife and

children and the sun will come up

tomorrow, and he's absolutely right.

Let's try to get a field for the

balance of power on the field, in

terms of batting and bowling in the

forthcoming series. Australia are

the favourites, they've been pretty

much so from the start. Then a

number of injuries, of course, both

pre-tour and during the tour to the

England squad. And that's why the

former Australian captain saying,

this tour is shaping up as a replica

of the disastrous 2002-2003

campaign. It has all the hallmarks

of a familiar English horror story.

There you go. That's the Australian

psych I was talking about earlier.

Build it up, get the English players

to to believe that.

There's no truth

in that?

Put it this way. If this

Australian team came to England now,

England would be firm favourites

because the ball will swing in

England. The Australian batsmen are

very poor against the swinging ball,

hence the last English Ashes, the

ball swung in three Test Matches.

England entrepeneursed Australia in

those game. The two games where it

didn't swing, where the conditions

were similar to Australia, Australia

won those two games. Hence,

Australia are favourites in

Australia because the ball won't

swing. Their batsmen are clueless

when the ball swings through the

air. They're very good players when

it's up and down. Steve Smith,

especially. The best player in the

world against a ball. Not even in

the top 20 there.

There's a view and

maybe you expressed it yourself.

Smith and David Warner really are

all that they've got to rely on, but

then of course, England only have

Alastair Cook and Joe Root.

You

could argue that the top fives are

similar. They've got two world class

players in both top fives. The

captain and a left-handed opener.

Obviously Cook and Warner are

different players but they bring the

same sort of thing to a team -

experience, runs in the bank. Both

teams have got three positions. They

haven't fully been nailed down.

Fairly young, inexperienced players.

Players who need a big Ashes to

prove themselves, to concrete

themselves a place in the team.

Where England are very much stronger

than Australia, in my view, is

batting from 6, 7, 8, 99, with

Stokes, Wokes, Ali.

Australia can't even match England

in that department for runs, so that

could be an area where England look

to exploit Australia.

What

What about Ben Stokes who is

obviously facing an allegation? How

much will he be missed?

A great

deal. He is genuinely the best

cricketer in the world at the

moment, as it stands, with the bat

and ball. You could add -- you could

argue he is the best batter and the

best bowler. Australia try and beat

you down, hyperbole, statements

everywhere, peacocks sticking their

tails out. Ben Stokes is based by

that at all. Without any thing, he

would inspire others.

You describe

for me are happy, productive

dressing room.

It is one doesn't

feel it can lose any situation. We

had that in 2010-11. We were bowled

out for 230 one the first day.

Australia batted well and got a big

lead of 200. We then got 517-1. We

were buoyed by it. They can't get us

out. They are shattered out there.

They are clueless, out of ideas. The

crowd have deserted them and they

have turned on their own boulders.

That permeates through a dressing

room. -- bowlers. They are cheering

for us now. OS liken it to the crowd

in rocky for that start screaming.

-- -- Rocky IV.

What about Kevin

Pietersen's relationship with you

and some of its team. It has been in

the public domain for some time.

Water under the bridge but the fact

is you will be sharing a media

facilities in Australia. You are

both working the TV... He is

certainly going to be there. How is

it going to go?

We have never been

friends. We had a professional

relationship when we played because

he was a world-class player to have

in the team. Oil was wanted him in

the team. Especially when he was

tried to write some of the roles.

--I always wanted him. We do play

any more. I don't see the point in

holding grudges.

You refer to him in

your book via a compliment about

Australia's Matthew Hayden. You say

that a ten Pitt Myatt is everything

that kept was not. -- epitomised.

It

is taken a bit out of context.

A lot

of the context was praise for

Peterson.

The whole fallout, I

wasn't a part of it. I had left. I

can't honestly talk. The two things

I have had, very one-sided opinions,

everywhere a member of the teen talk

about the situation. I've not heard

Kevin's side of it. He might be

completely in the right and

everybody else in the wrong.

It is

how you create a productive dressing

room. We have been a little bit down

this path already. A management

team, a captain, hast to kind of

lend, I suppose, all of the

different types in the dressing room

-- lend.

It is your responsibility.

He can't go in there and demand that

your ego is catered for. That is a

huge area where things take... It is

your responsibility as well to mould

yourself into the team. The team is

more important than the individual.

I can't remember which coach it was,

show me a genius, I will show you

how to play with the team and I will

show you how the team plays with

you. You learn to play with that

team first and then you allow the

brilliance to shake the team up, not

the other way around.

You are

somebody who likes to speak his mind

and in fairness, you might rub some

people up the wrong way. Former

coach Duncan Fletcher plus the

former captain who you said would

have used that last couple of

bullets in his gun on you.

I said it

tongue-in-cheek. I don't blame him.

When I was first on the England

tour, I epitomised everything that

Duncan Fletcher hated, I wasn't

serious and flat -- sensible. From

that point of view, we clashed

dramatically. My main problem was my

men talk. I didn't really have a

chance. -- mental. --

you are a big fan, Andrew Strauss

once called you a buffoon.

I stamped my feet and demanded a

review. I was very petulant.

Did you

need to be to be on form?

No, you

don't need to be petulant. It was my

release when I old. If people miss

fielded in purpose, I would always

say it was a lack of professionalism

if they were too busy looking at the

crowd and they were in the wrong

place to catch, I would scream and

shout. It's very different. A lot of

bowlers do it but a lot of batsmen

can't do it, they are precious and

need a cuddle.

There was a lot of

attention from the media when you

left the Ashes tour. Once England

had gone 3-0 down in the series and

was therefore about to lose. The

allegation was that you were a

quitter. Four years on, how do you

see that?

If I had stayed in that

trip, I would have done anything to

stay on that trip. Had nerve damage.

The nerve damage is there for life.

I couldn't feel the cricket ball. I

wasn't fit to play and I was told in

no uncertain terms that I had to

leave the tour immediately and that

is what happens.

It followed two

operations five. Five?

Far bigger

things were happening behind the

scenes. I hate get asked a lot. At

the time, I couldn't bowl. He was

the one who told me that I had to go

home. I had a lot going on behind

the scenes with Kevin that was

occupying their minds.

I just

wonder, you think about the Ashes

series and maybe this does sound a

little bit complacent, but it is

hard to imagine international

cricket without the Ashes, isn't it?

Are you concerned that while that

may stay and be the centrepiece of

international cricket, TUC and the

rest might fall away?

There is

certainly movement at the moment. --

do you sense the rest might fall

away. That cricket is focused on the

doom and gloom. Some things need to

be done in parts of the world

because not enough people watch it.

If money is the sole reason for

changing it, it I disagree.

Some

test matches finish inside four

days.

The rate wouldn't increase

like they wanted to. That county

cricket, how many wickets have to be

docked to get a result? The very

fact there is an extra day at the

end, mentally, means games get to

finish so we have to completely

forget that idea. Four-day cricket

is first-class cricket. Five day is

special. I know that it used to be

six-day but in my lifetime, I have

known it has five-day cricket. I

absolutely adore five-day cricket

and I don't know many players I play

against around the world who don't

love it. Just because the crowds are

not so big, if we box it up, in 15

years time, we will lament it and

this is incredible game and it will

go to rack and ruin. I'm going to be

there if I do.

That is a very strong

statement for five-day cricket. Over

25 days, potentially, down under.

Give me your prediction.

I don't

know how, or when. I just have a

feeling that we are going to win a

day and I am going for 2-1.