Sir Roger Bannister Extra Time


Sir Roger Bannister

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Now on BBC News,

it's time for Extra Time.

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Welcome. Following the recent death

of Sir Roger Bannister, we thought

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you might like to seek for a second

time a special interview he gave the

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programme in May 2000 and four. It

was recorder on the 50th anniversary

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of the day when he became the first

man to run a sub four-minute mile.

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We met on the same track in Oxford

where this historic achievement took

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place. Welcome to the special

edition of extra time.

Just like

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1954. High winds, cold.

You just

need a bit more rain. It really is

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very similar?

Absolutely. It is

England, early May. Equinoctial

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upsets in weather. A really stupid

time to try to break a record. But

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there we are. John Landy was on the

way to Finland.

This was your great

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rival.

The American confidence, he

was called the Kansas cowboy, and he

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said, I'm going to do it.

You beat

him to it, and you beat John Landy.

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Before we talk specifically about

that day here, 50 years ago, but the

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four-minute mile into a context for

me. It was described by Landy is a

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concrete wall, something that was

impossible to do.

Like a cement

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wall. He had done 4.2 on six

occasions. Only 15 yards. We just

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didn't seem to be able to get

through that. He was talking about

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it being a physical barrier, but I

couldn't see that. Four minutes two,

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under the conditions, it pace

judgement, you can break four

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minutes. It was a psychological

barrier.

But it was a barrier that

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galvanised not only the British

public, but athletics fans around

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the world.

They had been talking

about it for almost 100 years. Pas

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voters did for point ten. Everything

was moving in that direction. It was

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clear that somebody was going to do

it. Well, the Swedes did four

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minutes 1.4. They were not involved

in the war. 1953... 1943.

They

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flip-flopped six times.

They had the

crucial ingredient to break records,

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which was several of them, all of

comparable calibre.

It was the era

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of trying to recognise achievement.

That the point.

I think so. Britain

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wasn't dead of the country, and I

did try to do it in 1953. I thought

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that would be rather nice. The pace

judgement was not fast enough. The

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three quarters was 3.05, and you

cannot do the last lap. It all had

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to wait then until everything was

ready for May 19 54.

And it came to

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it in a sense of a very

disappointing Olympics in 1952.

That

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is why I did it, why I went on. I

had, my innocence, planned to win

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the Olympic gold medal in Helsinki,

1500 metres, and my medical studies

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were getting more and more demanding

and so I had planned to retire at

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the end of story. I did so badly,

everyone was so disappointed, the

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press said, you should have done

this and that, if only you had

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listened to us, you would have won

it. The chances of winning an

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Olympic title are always against

you. John Landy didn't win in

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Melbourne, Ron Delany came through.

I suppose that is why spot -- sport

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is fascinating.

So you hatched a

plan.

Yes, we had run together for

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years and the secret was to do the

three quarters mile within three

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minutes flat, and training to be a

steeplechaser, he didn't have the

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speed to go further than half a mile

and the first lap, I got a bit

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impatient and I shouted, faster,

faster!

We're going to fast already?

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I want to hear about the plans...

The plan was very simple. It

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couldn't have been simpler. Chris

Brasher would run a mile and

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Kristian away with takeover and he

would go on as long as he could and

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then I would take over.

It is all

about pacing. As far as the

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preparation was concerned, on the

day, when you look at how

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professional athletes themselves

ready now for major championships,

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with all due respect, your

preparations were pretty...

Ltd. I

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went to the medical school. I didn't

feel like doing much work -- Ltd. A

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sharpened up my spikes. We ran on

very loose -- primitive. I think

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they think the cinders were about...

Iran about four seconds slobber.

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Rubbed a little graphite on the

spikes. So they would come in and

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out neatly without collecting cinder

and ash.

This is your medical school

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in London, wasn't it?

Yes. And then

got a train, and as it happened,

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when I was going, the coach to Crisp

ratio and then to Chris chat away

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and then I joined the trio, and...

You bumped into him on the train?

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Yes. I said, I reckoned at that time

it wasn't worth attempting, as even

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if I'd exhorted myself in the

impossible weather and done or .1,

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everyone would be disappointed and,

oh, he has failed.

Are you saying

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this was the one and only

opportunity?

It was the first

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opportunity that year, and John

Landy had just arrived in Finland.

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He had finished the Australian

summer, our winter, and the Finns

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had said, you know, they knew he was

looking at the door, and they said

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come to Finland, they give you the

pasting you need, and there were

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perfect tracks and the Finns were

also absolutely obsessed almost with

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running, so it had to be done very

quickly, and that was why one would

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normally think of trying to break a

record on a windy, wet, cold English

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May Day.

So you're right at Oxford

station with your coach, then you

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went and had lunch with a friend...

The people I have stayed with when I

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was earlier studying here, I had

left Oxford, and I had lunch with

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the children and just tried to allow

my mind... The waiting is one of the

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worst parts of athletics.

Perhaps

any sport.

Participation in

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anticipation, fear. And you value

will never go through this again.

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You say absolutely it isn't worth

this agony. And then the thought

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was, well, will I get another

chance? Will Landy do it first?

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Would you forgive yourself if you

missed this possible opportunity?

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And eventually, I reckon about half

an hour before I was looking at a

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flag on that church steeple, which

the flat was broken, but it will be

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here on the sixth. I used that as a

wind gauge.

And what was telling

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you?

It was telling me about half an

hour before, that things were

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beginning to slacken and get a bit

less windy. So I thought, well,

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let's do it. I hope the wind stays

down, you know, a gentle five

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minutes, and then Chris Brasher did

a false start, which was a waste of

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time.

You must have been serious

then.

Well, he is not usual to make

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false starts in the mile. So then

Brasher leads off... He leads off

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and I think he's going to slowly

because I suppose I have had a rest

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for several days from running, and

so I shout, faster, faster, and he

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takes no notice whatsoever. He said,

well, I thought I was probably doing

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it at the right speed, and he said,

I couldn't go any faster anyway. So

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he does a good first lap, 58, you

run the first 15 yards faster, you

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sprint until you get a good

position.

The Times were called out.

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Everybody could hear the time. The

new settled down to what is a

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four-minute mile pace, as closely as

you can, 60 seconds, and they did

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the next lap in 60 seconds, so it

was a 1.5 8/2 mile.

You knew you

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were on course at that time.

We were

absolutely on course. He felt we

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were slowing and I think, I said,

you know, whatever I did say to him,

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Chris, come up, Chris chat away. And

then he took over. It is inevitable

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that the third lap slows, you know,

it just happens in pretty well all

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races. And Chris took me through the

three quarters mile in three minutes

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point five. So we had slowed at the

last lap was, the third lap was 62,

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and so I had to do the last lap in

59 and I was really trying to decide

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what moment to overtake him. Because

it was a help, while he was the head

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and gave the right speed, and if I

had overtaken him on the next two

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last bend, I would have had to have

run wide and that would have been a

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bit of total extra distance and I

didn't want to run more than 1760

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yards. So I waited until he was

really just coming into the straight

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and I could overtake him without

running any extra distance.

And then

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I had to... The last 100 yards or

so.

The whole of the last corner,

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bend, and the finishing straight, I

just didn't know whether my legs

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were getting slower, although my

brain was telling them to very much

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keep going.

We are about ten yards

or so now from the line.

We are near

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the line now.

As you reach this

point, what were you feeling is that

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moment? You are about to...

Well, my

feelings were that I was so close,

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that I couldn't really believe I'd

failed, other stopwatches held the

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answer and I had to wait, I couldn't

move everyone around, and your blood

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pressure falls because of blood

vessels are rolled violated and

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collapsed. I think about the time I

was recovering, I heard them making

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the great announcement, which he

said he had rehearsed in the bath

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the night before.

You know what it

was. Well, it was that he started

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with three minutes, and that nobody

else heard anything...

1200 people

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there... It was and that he started

with three minutes, it was the

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preamble, you know, everybody was

waiting, and he said the result is

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number 41... Banister of Exeter and

Merton College in a time which,

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subject to ratification, will be

track record, English record,

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English native record, British

allcomers record, European record,

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world record and then three.

That

was it. In the immediate aftermath.

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The sense of achievement, your

parents were here as well, won't

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they?

I didn't ask them. They were

brought without my knowledge. No, I

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suppose that we went off to London,

the BBC's sportsnight had just been

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started and so I was on that, and we

went off and had dinner, friends,

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partners, and we thought, well, we

might as well wait and see what the

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newspaper said. So we went into a

nightclub until about two will clock

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in the morning and we thought, well,

it does seem to be causing quite a

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kerfuffle.

You had some cabaret in

the nightclub, is that right?

I

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don't think I did. They said I sung

something, but it is inconceivable,

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impossible.

We left using time on

your hands on a nightclub on the

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following day.

You have claimed

that, but I could not possibly

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comment.

You certainly celebrated

the achievement. You had about two

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hours sleep as I understand it that

night. The following day, busy

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again, in London, at Oxford, back to

London, and the press by now were...

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The three of us did have a bit of

time together and we climbed Harrow

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Hill, not much of a hill, and we

look doubt that evening over London,

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because he could see the lights, and

I remember a conversation with them,

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they may not remember it, but what

should we do now? And of course, we

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won't just thinking about athletics.

Which of course, was coming to an

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end in one way or another, the

others went on longer, but what you

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do? And for me, it was

straightforward.

I would go on and

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do medicine. Let me take you forward

six weeks to mid June and Finland,

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and Tokyo and -- Landi breaks

record.

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Are new here would do it, it was

questionable whether we get it here

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before he did because we had shown

that he was physically capable,

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probably stronger I was and he just

needed to have a decent pace in the

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early part of the race.

He shattered

it really, took it down the. -- took

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down the.

Yes, that is 12 or

whatever.

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down the.

Yes, that is 12 or

whatever.

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down the.

Yes, that is 12 or

whatever.

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down the.

Yes, that is 12 or

whatever. As far as that was

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whatever. As far as that was

concerned, your contacts with Landy

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were not especially frequent, but he

sent congratulations after your

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record and he sent him.

You just

wonder whether there might not have

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been some kind of professional

jealousy.

I was much more friendly

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with him and actually got to know

him after the race in Vancouver. I

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think before you race against a

major opponent, jealousy is not the

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word, it's just you are a bit

circumspect. You are supposed to be

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racing against them. They are, in a

metaphorical sense, the enemy. But

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afterwards it didn't matter at all

and we have kept in touch, we see

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one another every year and he is now

Governor of Victoria and on his way

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to England now.

You have mentioned

Vancouver, why do we go there now?

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This was another six weeks, it was

the Empire games and you arrived

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some two weeks before the final and

you met Landy as soon as you arrived

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and it then didn't see him again

until the race.

No, we were not

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seeking each other out but we really

happened to coincide in our

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training. I did most of my training

away from the track, he did those of

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his on the track.

Leaving secretive?

Well no, I ran on grass because by

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then I could work as hard as I would

on the track and it was so much

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easier and less strain on the

muscles, so I didn't regard track

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running. This was clearly a big

deal. It was more important than the

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Formula 1 and this is the race I was

aiming at.

And not just because it

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was the centrepiece of the Empire

games but in the end because

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athletics is about eating and not

setting records.

Yes, and if Landy

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had beaten me, I don't think the

four minute mile would have

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mattered, he would have been the

best.

Talk us through that.

It was a

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very hot day, quite different from

the day in May. Conditions were good

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and Landy ran off immediately.

Like

a train.

And I thought he is too

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fast, he will either break the world

record by five seconds or he will

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slow down, in which case I will have

the advantage of. I decided that as

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the early part of the race was so

fast, instead of starting a sprint

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at 200 or something, I had to leave

it late and that was the moment when

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I put the first in the.

That was the

strength of your game, a strong

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finish. As you crossed the line, I

ask you in a sense to recapture the

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moment, this was bigger than the

four-minute mile.

That was the first

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time that two people had done at. I

would say the feeling was really,

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relief. It could have gone badly and

in a sense it rather made up for

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failure in Helsinki and I only got

one more race to go before retiring

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and that race was the European race

and I think by then I was feeling

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fairly confident that I could handle

that one. Release, you know, career

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over and as I said in the diary as I

wrote, FINIS.

Let me conclude by

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asking you a personal question. What

is your philosophy of running?

I put

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it in the new edition of the book

which I put 50 years ago, which I

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didn't expect to return to.

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Saying that they were something

about my description of my early

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life which sort of rather inspire

them try to do things. The way I had

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put it, I reflected on rereading

this book, that however ordinary

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each of us may seem, we are all in

somewhere special and can do that

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are extraordinary,

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somewhere special and can do that

are extraordinary,. And when the

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broad sweep of life is viewed,

sport, instinctive and physical,

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illustrates a universal truth that

most of us find effort and struggled

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deeply satisfying, harnessing and

almost primaeval instinct to fight

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and to survive. I think that is what

I would say, but I don't believe

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that running was really more than a

metaphor for other struggles and

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everybody is trying to balloon to

the Atlantic and died 400 feet,

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everybody has a was wanted to do

this and it is fine if you don't

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risk your life doing it and you

don't risk other people 's lives

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trying to, when you haven't done it.

You have talked and written also

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that the freedom that running gives

you.

Yes. Freedom of choice. When I

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was chairman of the sports Council I

believed that every person, nearly

0:20:530:20:56

everybody, had some kind of

psychological link which made them

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attuned to a certain activity, seem

more solitary, climbing mountains,

0:21:030:21:11

playing cricket. This range should

be explored by the young because at

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the age of 13, 14, you don't know

what you are going to be best at.

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Your body shape can change. I

believe that if they trying --a

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choice of activities were wide

enough, you find something

0:21:290:21:32

irresistible and get involved at

about five years later he probably

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achieve quite a lot of success and

you find you have grown up, you have

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learned a lot. That is what I would

like to give as a message.

Thank you

0:21:410:21:45

very much for joining us on this

addition of Extra Time.

0:21:450:21:53

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