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Now on BBC News,
it's time for Extra Time. | 0:00:00 | 0:00:04 | |
Welcome. Following the recent death
of Sir Roger Bannister, we thought | 0:00:11 | 0:00:18 | |
you might like to seek for a second
time a special interview he gave the | 0:00:18 | 0:00:22 | |
programme in May 2000 and four. It
was recorder on the 50th anniversary | 0:00:22 | 0:00:26 | |
of the day when he became the first
man to run a sub four-minute mile. | 0:00:26 | 0:00:31 | |
We met on the same track in Oxford
where this historic achievement took | 0:00:31 | 0:00:35 | |
place. Welcome to the special
edition of extra time. Just like | 0:00:35 | 0:00:44 | |
1954. High winds, cold. You just
need a bit more rain. It really is | 0:00:44 | 0:00:49 | |
very similar? Absolutely. It is
England, early May. Equinoctial | 0:00:49 | 0:00:55 | |
upsets in weather. A really stupid
time to try to break a record. But | 0:00:55 | 0:01:03 | |
there we are. John Landy was on the
way to Finland. This was your great | 0:01:03 | 0:01:10 | |
rival. The American confidence, he
was called the Kansas cowboy, and he | 0:01:10 | 0:01:22 | |
said, I'm going to do it. You beat
him to it, and you beat John Landy. | 0:01:22 | 0:01:29 | |
Before we talk specifically about
that day here, 50 years ago, but the | 0:01:29 | 0:01:35 | |
four-minute mile into a context for
me. It was described by Landy is a | 0:01:35 | 0:01:40 | |
concrete wall, something that was
impossible to do. Like a cement | 0:01:40 | 0:01:43 | |
wall. He had done 4.2 on six
occasions. Only 15 yards. We just | 0:01:43 | 0:01:52 | |
didn't seem to be able to get
through that. He was talking about | 0:01:52 | 0:01:56 | |
it being a physical barrier, but I
couldn't see that. Four minutes two, | 0:01:56 | 0:02:03 | |
under the conditions, it pace
judgement, you can break four | 0:02:03 | 0:02:08 | |
minutes. It was a psychological
barrier. But it was a barrier that | 0:02:08 | 0:02:13 | |
galvanised not only the British
public, but athletics fans around | 0:02:13 | 0:02:16 | |
the world. They had been talking
about it for almost 100 years. Pas | 0:02:16 | 0:02:20 | |
voters did for point ten. Everything
was moving in that direction. It was | 0:02:20 | 0:02:30 | |
clear that somebody was going to do
it. Well, the Swedes did four | 0:02:30 | 0:02:35 | |
minutes 1.4. They were not involved
in the war. 1953... 1943. They | 0:02:35 | 0:02:43 | |
flip-flopped six times. They had the
crucial ingredient to break records, | 0:02:43 | 0:02:49 | |
which was several of them, all of
comparable calibre. It was the era | 0:02:49 | 0:02:56 | |
of trying to recognise achievement.
That the point. I think so. Britain | 0:02:56 | 0:03:00 | |
wasn't dead of the country, and I
did try to do it in 1953. I thought | 0:03:00 | 0:03:07 | |
that would be rather nice. The pace
judgement was not fast enough. The | 0:03:07 | 0:03:12 | |
three quarters was 3.05, and you
cannot do the last lap. It all had | 0:03:12 | 0:03:18 | |
to wait then until everything was
ready for May 19 54. And it came to | 0:03:18 | 0:03:24 | |
it in a sense of a very
disappointing Olympics in 1952. That | 0:03:24 | 0:03:29 | |
is why I did it, why I went on. I
had, my innocence, planned to win | 0:03:29 | 0:03:37 | |
the Olympic gold medal in Helsinki,
1500 metres, and my medical studies | 0:03:37 | 0:03:44 | |
were getting more and more demanding
and so I had planned to retire at | 0:03:44 | 0:03:49 | |
the end of story. I did so badly,
everyone was so disappointed, the | 0:03:49 | 0:03:56 | |
press said, you should have done
this and that, if only you had | 0:03:56 | 0:03:59 | |
listened to us, you would have won
it. The chances of winning an | 0:03:59 | 0:04:03 | |
Olympic title are always against
you. John Landy didn't win in | 0:04:03 | 0:04:06 | |
Melbourne, Ron Delany came through.
I suppose that is why spot -- sport | 0:04:06 | 0:04:14 | |
is fascinating. So you hatched a
plan. Yes, we had run together for | 0:04:14 | 0:04:21 | |
years and the secret was to do the
three quarters mile within three | 0:04:21 | 0:04:28 | |
minutes flat, and training to be a
steeplechaser, he didn't have the | 0:04:28 | 0:04:36 | |
speed to go further than half a mile
and the first lap, I got a bit | 0:04:36 | 0:04:44 | |
impatient and I shouted, faster,
faster! We're going to fast already? | 0:04:44 | 0:04:49 | |
I want to hear about the plans...
The plan was very simple. It | 0:04:49 | 0:04:54 | |
couldn't have been simpler. Chris
Brasher would run a mile and | 0:04:54 | 0:04:58 | |
Kristian away with takeover and he
would go on as long as he could and | 0:04:58 | 0:05:02 | |
then I would take over. It is all
about pacing. As far as the | 0:05:02 | 0:05:07 | |
preparation was concerned, on the
day, when you look at how | 0:05:07 | 0:05:10 | |
professional athletes themselves
ready now for major championships, | 0:05:10 | 0:05:14 | |
with all due respect, your
preparations were pretty... Ltd. I | 0:05:14 | 0:05:18 | |
went to the medical school. I didn't
feel like doing much work -- Ltd. A | 0:05:18 | 0:05:25 | |
sharpened up my spikes. We ran on
very loose -- primitive. I think | 0:05:25 | 0:05:33 | |
they think the cinders were about...
Iran about four seconds slobber. | 0:05:33 | 0:05:39 | |
Rubbed a little graphite on the
spikes. So they would come in and | 0:05:39 | 0:05:43 | |
out neatly without collecting cinder
and ash. This is your medical school | 0:05:43 | 0:05:49 | |
in London, wasn't it? Yes. And then
got a train, and as it happened, | 0:05:49 | 0:05:55 | |
when I was going, the coach to Crisp
ratio and then to Chris chat away | 0:05:55 | 0:06:05 | |
and then I joined the trio, and...
You bumped into him on the train? | 0:06:05 | 0:06:12 | |
Yes. I said, I reckoned at that time
it wasn't worth attempting, as even | 0:06:12 | 0:06:18 | |
if I'd exhorted myself in the
impossible weather and done or .1, | 0:06:18 | 0:06:23 | |
everyone would be disappointed and,
oh, he has failed. Are you saying | 0:06:23 | 0:06:28 | |
this was the one and only
opportunity? It was the first | 0:06:28 | 0:06:32 | |
opportunity that year, and John
Landy had just arrived in Finland. | 0:06:32 | 0:06:36 | |
He had finished the Australian
summer, our winter, and the Finns | 0:06:36 | 0:06:43 | |
had said, you know, they knew he was
looking at the door, and they said | 0:06:43 | 0:06:48 | |
come to Finland, they give you the
pasting you need, and there were | 0:06:48 | 0:06:53 | |
perfect tracks and the Finns were
also absolutely obsessed almost with | 0:06:53 | 0:06:59 | |
running, so it had to be done very
quickly, and that was why one would | 0:06:59 | 0:07:08 | |
normally think of trying to break a
record on a windy, wet, cold English | 0:07:08 | 0:07:15 | |
May Day. So you're right at Oxford
station with your coach, then you | 0:07:15 | 0:07:19 | |
went and had lunch with a friend...
The people I have stayed with when I | 0:07:19 | 0:07:23 | |
was earlier studying here, I had
left Oxford, and I had lunch with | 0:07:23 | 0:07:31 | |
the children and just tried to allow
my mind... The waiting is one of the | 0:07:31 | 0:07:37 | |
worst parts of athletics. Perhaps
any sport. Participation in | 0:07:37 | 0:07:44 | |
anticipation, fear. And you value
will never go through this again. | 0:07:44 | 0:07:48 | |
You say absolutely it isn't worth
this agony. And then the thought | 0:07:48 | 0:07:52 | |
was, well, will I get another
chance? Will Landy do it first? | 0:07:52 | 0:07:57 | |
Would you forgive yourself if you
missed this possible opportunity? | 0:07:57 | 0:08:02 | |
And eventually, I reckon about half
an hour before I was looking at a | 0:08:02 | 0:08:07 | |
flag on that church steeple, which
the flat was broken, but it will be | 0:08:07 | 0:08:13 | |
here on the sixth. I used that as a
wind gauge. And what was telling | 0:08:13 | 0:08:19 | |
you? It was telling me about half an
hour before, that things were | 0:08:19 | 0:08:24 | |
beginning to slacken and get a bit
less windy. So I thought, well, | 0:08:24 | 0:08:28 | |
let's do it. I hope the wind stays
down, you know, a gentle five | 0:08:28 | 0:08:37 | |
minutes, and then Chris Brasher did
a false start, which was a waste of | 0:08:37 | 0:08:42 | |
time. You must have been serious
then. Well, he is not usual to make | 0:08:42 | 0:08:48 | |
false starts in the mile. So then
Brasher leads off... He leads off | 0:08:48 | 0:08:55 | |
and I think he's going to slowly
because I suppose I have had a rest | 0:08:55 | 0:09:00 | |
for several days from running, and
so I shout, faster, faster, and he | 0:09:00 | 0:09:07 | |
takes no notice whatsoever. He said,
well, I thought I was probably doing | 0:09:07 | 0:09:14 | |
it at the right speed, and he said,
I couldn't go any faster anyway. So | 0:09:14 | 0:09:18 | |
he does a good first lap, 58, you
run the first 15 yards faster, you | 0:09:18 | 0:09:26 | |
sprint until you get a good
position. The Times were called out. | 0:09:26 | 0:09:31 | |
Everybody could hear the time. The
new settled down to what is a | 0:09:31 | 0:09:35 | |
four-minute mile pace, as closely as
you can, 60 seconds, and they did | 0:09:35 | 0:09:40 | |
the next lap in 60 seconds, so it
was a 1.5 8/2 mile. You knew you | 0:09:40 | 0:09:44 | |
were on course at that time. We were
absolutely on course. He felt we | 0:09:44 | 0:09:50 | |
were slowing and I think, I said,
you know, whatever I did say to him, | 0:09:50 | 0:09:55 | |
Chris, come up, Chris chat away. And
then he took over. It is inevitable | 0:09:55 | 0:10:02 | |
that the third lap slows, you know,
it just happens in pretty well all | 0:10:02 | 0:10:08 | |
races. And Chris took me through the
three quarters mile in three minutes | 0:10:08 | 0:10:14 | |
point five. So we had slowed at the
last lap was, the third lap was 62, | 0:10:14 | 0:10:22 | |
and so I had to do the last lap in
59 and I was really trying to decide | 0:10:22 | 0:10:29 | |
what moment to overtake him. Because
it was a help, while he was the head | 0:10:29 | 0:10:37 | |
and gave the right speed, and if I
had overtaken him on the next two | 0:10:37 | 0:10:43 | |
last bend, I would have had to have
run wide and that would have been a | 0:10:43 | 0:10:49 | |
bit of total extra distance and I
didn't want to run more than 1760 | 0:10:49 | 0:10:54 | |
yards. So I waited until he was
really just coming into the straight | 0:10:54 | 0:11:01 | |
and I could overtake him without
running any extra distance. And then | 0:11:01 | 0:11:04 | |
I had to... The last 100 yards or
so. The whole of the last corner, | 0:11:04 | 0:11:12 | |
bend, and the finishing straight, I
just didn't know whether my legs | 0:11:12 | 0:11:17 | |
were getting slower, although my
brain was telling them to very much | 0:11:17 | 0:11:23 | |
keep going. We are about ten yards
or so now from the line. We are near | 0:11:23 | 0:11:29 | |
the line now. As you reach this
point, what were you feeling is that | 0:11:29 | 0:11:35 | |
moment? You are about to... Well, my
feelings were that I was so close, | 0:11:35 | 0:11:42 | |
that I couldn't really believe I'd
failed, other stopwatches held the | 0:11:42 | 0:11:47 | |
answer and I had to wait, I couldn't
move everyone around, and your blood | 0:11:47 | 0:11:56 | |
pressure falls because of blood
vessels are rolled violated and | 0:11:56 | 0:11:59 | |
collapsed. I think about the time I
was recovering, I heard them making | 0:11:59 | 0:12:09 | |
the great announcement, which he
said he had rehearsed in the bath | 0:12:09 | 0:12:12 | |
the night before. You know what it
was. Well, it was that he started | 0:12:12 | 0:12:16 | |
with three minutes, and that nobody
else heard anything... 1200 people | 0:12:16 | 0:12:19 | |
there... It was and that he started
with three minutes, it was the | 0:12:19 | 0:12:23 | |
preamble, you know, everybody was
waiting, and he said the result is | 0:12:23 | 0:12:29 | |
number 41... Banister of Exeter and
Merton College in a time which, | 0:12:29 | 0:12:38 | |
subject to ratification, will be
track record, English record, | 0:12:38 | 0:12:44 | |
English native record, British
allcomers record, European record, | 0:12:44 | 0:12:50 | |
world record and then three. That
was it. In the immediate aftermath. | 0:12:50 | 0:12:56 | |
The sense of achievement, your
parents were here as well, won't | 0:12:56 | 0:13:02 | |
they? I didn't ask them. They were
brought without my knowledge. No, I | 0:13:02 | 0:13:07 | |
suppose that we went off to London,
the BBC's sportsnight had just been | 0:13:07 | 0:13:13 | |
started and so I was on that, and we
went off and had dinner, friends, | 0:13:13 | 0:13:20 | |
partners, and we thought, well, we
might as well wait and see what the | 0:13:20 | 0:13:25 | |
newspaper said. So we went into a
nightclub until about two will clock | 0:13:25 | 0:13:29 | |
in the morning and we thought, well,
it does seem to be causing quite a | 0:13:29 | 0:13:33 | |
kerfuffle. You had some cabaret in
the nightclub, is that right? I | 0:13:33 | 0:13:37 | |
don't think I did. They said I sung
something, but it is inconceivable, | 0:13:37 | 0:13:43 | |
impossible. We left using time on
your hands on a nightclub on the | 0:13:43 | 0:13:47 | |
following day. You have claimed
that, but I could not possibly | 0:13:47 | 0:13:50 | |
comment. You certainly celebrated
the achievement. You had about two | 0:13:50 | 0:13:54 | |
hours sleep as I understand it that
night. The following day, busy | 0:13:54 | 0:13:58 | |
again, in London, at Oxford, back to
London, and the press by now were... | 0:13:58 | 0:14:04 | |
The three of us did have a bit of
time together and we climbed Harrow | 0:14:04 | 0:14:12 | |
Hill, not much of a hill, and we
look doubt that evening over London, | 0:14:12 | 0:14:17 | |
because he could see the lights, and
I remember a conversation with them, | 0:14:17 | 0:14:23 | |
they may not remember it, but what
should we do now? And of course, we | 0:14:23 | 0:14:27 | |
won't just thinking about athletics.
Which of course, was coming to an | 0:14:27 | 0:14:33 | |
end in one way or another, the
others went on longer, but what you | 0:14:33 | 0:14:39 | |
do? And for me, it was
straightforward. I would go on and | 0:14:39 | 0:14:42 | |
do medicine. Let me take you forward
six weeks to mid June and Finland, | 0:14:42 | 0:14:47 | |
and Tokyo and -- Landi breaks
record. | 0:14:47 | 0:14:56 | |
Are new here would do it, it was
questionable whether we get it here | 0:14:57 | 0:15:00 | |
before he did because we had shown
that he was physically capable, | 0:15:00 | 0:15:05 | |
probably stronger I was and he just
needed to have a decent pace in the | 0:15:05 | 0:15:10 | |
early part of the race. He shattered
it really, took it down the. -- took | 0:15:10 | 0:15:18 | |
down the. Yes, that is 12 or
whatever. | 0:15:18 | 0:15:23 | |
down the. Yes, that is 12 or
whatever. | 0:15:23 | 0:15:24 | |
down the. Yes, that is 12 or
whatever. | 0:15:24 | 0:15:24 | |
down the. Yes, that is 12 or
whatever. As far as that was | 0:15:24 | 0:15:27 | |
whatever. As far as that was
concerned, your contacts with Landy | 0:15:27 | 0:15:30 | |
were not especially frequent, but he
sent congratulations after your | 0:15:30 | 0:15:34 | |
record and he sent him. You just
wonder whether there might not have | 0:15:34 | 0:15:39 | |
been some kind of professional
jealousy. I was much more friendly | 0:15:39 | 0:15:44 | |
with him and actually got to know
him after the race in Vancouver. I | 0:15:44 | 0:15:50 | |
think before you race against a
major opponent, jealousy is not the | 0:15:50 | 0:15:55 | |
word, it's just you are a bit
circumspect. You are supposed to be | 0:15:55 | 0:16:03 | |
racing against them. They are, in a
metaphorical sense, the enemy. But | 0:16:03 | 0:16:13 | |
afterwards it didn't matter at all
and we have kept in touch, we see | 0:16:13 | 0:16:16 | |
one another every year and he is now
Governor of Victoria and on his way | 0:16:16 | 0:16:24 | |
to England now. You have mentioned
Vancouver, why do we go there now? | 0:16:24 | 0:16:29 | |
This was another six weeks, it was
the Empire games and you arrived | 0:16:29 | 0:16:37 | |
some two weeks before the final and
you met Landy as soon as you arrived | 0:16:37 | 0:16:42 | |
and it then didn't see him again
until the race. No, we were not | 0:16:42 | 0:16:46 | |
seeking each other out but we really
happened to coincide in our | 0:16:46 | 0:16:50 | |
training. I did most of my training
away from the track, he did those of | 0:16:50 | 0:16:54 | |
his on the track. Leaving secretive?
Well no, I ran on grass because by | 0:16:54 | 0:17:01 | |
then I could work as hard as I would
on the track and it was so much | 0:17:01 | 0:17:05 | |
easier and less strain on the
muscles, so I didn't regard track | 0:17:05 | 0:17:10 | |
running. This was clearly a big
deal. It was more important than the | 0:17:10 | 0:17:15 | |
Formula 1 and this is the race I was
aiming at. And not just because it | 0:17:15 | 0:17:20 | |
was the centrepiece of the Empire
games but in the end because | 0:17:20 | 0:17:23 | |
athletics is about eating and not
setting records. Yes, and if Landy | 0:17:23 | 0:17:30 | |
had beaten me, I don't think the
four minute mile would have | 0:17:30 | 0:17:35 | |
mattered, he would have been the
best. Talk us through that. It was a | 0:17:35 | 0:17:40 | |
very hot day, quite different from
the day in May. Conditions were good | 0:17:40 | 0:17:49 | |
and Landy ran off immediately. Like
a train. And I thought he is too | 0:17:49 | 0:17:59 | |
fast, he will either break the world
record by five seconds or he will | 0:17:59 | 0:18:03 | |
slow down, in which case I will have
the advantage of. I decided that as | 0:18:03 | 0:18:07 | |
the early part of the race was so
fast, instead of starting a sprint | 0:18:07 | 0:18:15 | |
at 200 or something, I had to leave
it late and that was the moment when | 0:18:15 | 0:18:19 | |
I put the first in the. That was the
strength of your game, a strong | 0:18:19 | 0:18:25 | |
finish. As you crossed the line, I
ask you in a sense to recapture the | 0:18:25 | 0:18:32 | |
moment, this was bigger than the
four-minute mile. That was the first | 0:18:32 | 0:18:39 | |
time that two people had done at. I
would say the feeling was really, | 0:18:39 | 0:18:43 | |
relief. It could have gone badly and
in a sense it rather made up for | 0:18:43 | 0:18:51 | |
failure in Helsinki and I only got
one more race to go before retiring | 0:18:51 | 0:18:58 | |
and that race was the European race
and I think by then I was feeling | 0:18:58 | 0:19:03 | |
fairly confident that I could handle
that one. Release, you know, career | 0:19:03 | 0:19:08 | |
over and as I said in the diary as I
wrote, FINIS. Let me conclude by | 0:19:08 | 0:19:18 | |
asking you a personal question. What
is your philosophy of running? I put | 0:19:18 | 0:19:24 | |
it in the new edition of the book
which I put 50 years ago, which I | 0:19:24 | 0:19:29 | |
didn't expect to return to. | 0:19:29 | 0:19:31 | |
Saying that they were something
about my description of my early | 0:19:34 | 0:19:37 | |
life which sort of rather inspire
them try to do things. The way I had | 0:19:37 | 0:19:44 | |
put it, I reflected on rereading
this book, that however ordinary | 0:19:44 | 0:19:50 | |
each of us may seem, we are all in
somewhere special and can do that | 0:19:50 | 0:19:54 | |
are extraordinary, | 0:19:54 | 0:19:58 | |
somewhere special and can do that
are extraordinary,. And when the | 0:19:58 | 0:20:00 | |
broad sweep of life is viewed,
sport, instinctive and physical, | 0:20:00 | 0:20:05 | |
illustrates a universal truth that
most of us find effort and struggled | 0:20:05 | 0:20:12 | |
deeply satisfying, harnessing and
almost primaeval instinct to fight | 0:20:12 | 0:20:15 | |
and to survive. I think that is what
I would say, but I don't believe | 0:20:15 | 0:20:19 | |
that running was really more than a
metaphor for other struggles and | 0:20:19 | 0:20:29 | |
everybody is trying to balloon to
the Atlantic and died 400 feet, | 0:20:29 | 0:20:34 | |
everybody has a was wanted to do
this and it is fine if you don't | 0:20:34 | 0:20:38 | |
risk your life doing it and you
don't risk other people 's lives | 0:20:38 | 0:20:42 | |
trying to, when you haven't done it.
You have talked and written also | 0:20:42 | 0:20:47 | |
that the freedom that running gives
you. Yes. Freedom of choice. When I | 0:20:47 | 0:20:53 | |
was chairman of the sports Council I
believed that every person, nearly | 0:20:53 | 0:20:56 | |
everybody, had some kind of
psychological link which made them | 0:20:56 | 0:21:03 | |
attuned to a certain activity, seem
more solitary, climbing mountains, | 0:21:03 | 0:21:11 | |
playing cricket. This range should
be explored by the young because at | 0:21:11 | 0:21:19 | |
the age of 13, 14, you don't know
what you are going to be best at. | 0:21:19 | 0:21:23 | |
Your body shape can change. I
believe that if they trying --a | 0:21:23 | 0:21:29 | |
choice of activities were wide
enough, you find something | 0:21:29 | 0:21:32 | |
irresistible and get involved at
about five years later he probably | 0:21:32 | 0:21:36 | |
achieve quite a lot of success and
you find you have grown up, you have | 0:21:36 | 0:21:41 | |
learned a lot. That is what I would
like to give as a message. Thank you | 0:21:41 | 0:21:45 | |
very much for joining us on this
addition of Extra Time. | 0:21:45 | 0:21:53 |