Sir Roger Bannister Extra Time

Now on BBC News,

it's time for Extra Time.

Welcome. Following the recent death

of Sir Roger Bannister, we thought

you might like to seek for a second

time a special interview he gave the

programme in May 2000 and four. It

was recorder on the 50th anniversary

of the day when he became the first

man to run a sub four-minute mile.

We met on the same track in Oxford

where this historic achievement took

place. Welcome to the special

edition of extra time.

Just like

1954. High winds, cold.

You just

need a bit more rain. It really is

very similar?

Absolutely. It is

England, early May. Equinoctial

upsets in weather. A really stupid

time to try to break a record. But

there we are. John Landy was on the

way to Finland.

This was your great

rival.

The American confidence, he

was called the Kansas cowboy, and he

said, I'm going to do it.

You beat

him to it, and you beat John Landy.

Before we talk specifically about

that day here, 50 years ago, but the

four-minute mile into a context for

me. It was described by Landy is a

concrete wall, something that was

impossible to do.

Like a cement

wall. He had done 4.2 on six

occasions. Only 15 yards. We just

didn't seem to be able to get

through that. He was talking about

it being a physical barrier, but I

couldn't see that. Four minutes two,

under the conditions, it pace

judgement, you can break four

minutes. It was a psychological

barrier.

But it was a barrier that

galvanised not only the British

public, but athletics fans around

the world.

They had been talking

about it for almost 100 years. Pas

voters did for point ten. Everything

was moving in that direction. It was

clear that somebody was going to do

it. Well, the Swedes did four

minutes 1.4. They were not involved

in the war. 1953... 1943.

They

flip-flopped six times.

They had the

crucial ingredient to break records,

which was several of them, all of

comparable calibre.

It was the era

of trying to recognise achievement.

That the point.

I think so. Britain

wasn't dead of the country, and I

did try to do it in 1953. I thought

that would be rather nice. The pace

judgement was not fast enough. The

three quarters was 3.05, and you

cannot do the last lap. It all had

to wait then until everything was

ready for May 19 54.

And it came to

it in a sense of a very

disappointing Olympics in 1952.

That

is why I did it, why I went on. I

had, my innocence, planned to win

the Olympic gold medal in Helsinki,

1500 metres, and my medical studies

were getting more and more demanding

and so I had planned to retire at

the end of story. I did so badly,

everyone was so disappointed, the

press said, you should have done

this and that, if only you had

listened to us, you would have won

it. The chances of winning an

Olympic title are always against

you. John Landy didn't win in

Melbourne, Ron Delany came through.

I suppose that is why spot -- sport

is fascinating.

So you hatched a

plan.

Yes, we had run together for

years and the secret was to do the

three quarters mile within three

minutes flat, and training to be a

steeplechaser, he didn't have the

speed to go further than half a mile

and the first lap, I got a bit

impatient and I shouted, faster,

faster!

We're going to fast already?

I want to hear about the plans...

The plan was very simple. It

couldn't have been simpler. Chris

Brasher would run a mile and

Kristian away with takeover and he

would go on as long as he could and

then I would take over.

It is all

about pacing. As far as the

preparation was concerned, on the

day, when you look at how

professional athletes themselves

ready now for major championships,

with all due respect, your

preparations were pretty...

Ltd. I

went to the medical school. I didn't

feel like doing much work -- Ltd. A

sharpened up my spikes. We ran on

very loose -- primitive. I think

they think the cinders were about...

Iran about four seconds slobber.

Rubbed a little graphite on the

spikes. So they would come in and

out neatly without collecting cinder

and ash.

This is your medical school

in London, wasn't it?

Yes. And then

got a train, and as it happened,

when I was going, the coach to Crisp

ratio and then to Chris chat away

and then I joined the trio, and...

You bumped into him on the train?

Yes. I said, I reckoned at that time

it wasn't worth attempting, as even

if I'd exhorted myself in the

impossible weather and done or .1,

everyone would be disappointed and,

oh, he has failed.

Are you saying

this was the one and only

opportunity?

It was the first

opportunity that year, and John

Landy had just arrived in Finland.

He had finished the Australian

summer, our winter, and the Finns

had said, you know, they knew he was

looking at the door, and they said

come to Finland, they give you the

pasting you need, and there were

perfect tracks and the Finns were

also absolutely obsessed almost with

running, so it had to be done very

quickly, and that was why one would

normally think of trying to break a

record on a windy, wet, cold English

May Day.

So you're right at Oxford

station with your coach, then you

went and had lunch with a friend...

The people I have stayed with when I

was earlier studying here, I had

left Oxford, and I had lunch with

the children and just tried to allow

my mind... The waiting is one of the

worst parts of athletics.

Perhaps

any sport.

Participation in

anticipation, fear. And you value

will never go through this again.

You say absolutely it isn't worth

this agony. And then the thought

was, well, will I get another

chance? Will Landy do it first?

Would you forgive yourself if you

missed this possible opportunity?

And eventually, I reckon about half

an hour before I was looking at a

flag on that church steeple, which

the flat was broken, but it will be

here on the sixth. I used that as a

wind gauge.

And what was telling

you?

It was telling me about half an

hour before, that things were

beginning to slacken and get a bit

less windy. So I thought, well,

let's do it. I hope the wind stays

down, you know, a gentle five

minutes, and then Chris Brasher did

a false start, which was a waste of

time.

You must have been serious

then.

Well, he is not usual to make

false starts in the mile. So then

Brasher leads off... He leads off

and I think he's going to slowly

because I suppose I have had a rest

for several days from running, and

so I shout, faster, faster, and he

takes no notice whatsoever. He said,

well, I thought I was probably doing

it at the right speed, and he said,

I couldn't go any faster anyway. So

he does a good first lap, 58, you

run the first 15 yards faster, you

sprint until you get a good

position.

The Times were called out.

Everybody could hear the time. The

new settled down to what is a

four-minute mile pace, as closely as

you can, 60 seconds, and they did

the next lap in 60 seconds, so it

was a 1.5 8/2 mile.

You knew you

were on course at that time.

We were

absolutely on course. He felt we

were slowing and I think, I said,

you know, whatever I did say to him,

Chris, come up, Chris chat away. And

then he took over. It is inevitable

that the third lap slows, you know,

it just happens in pretty well all

races. And Chris took me through the

three quarters mile in three minutes

point five. So we had slowed at the

last lap was, the third lap was 62,

and so I had to do the last lap in

59 and I was really trying to decide

what moment to overtake him. Because

it was a help, while he was the head

and gave the right speed, and if I

had overtaken him on the next two

last bend, I would have had to have

run wide and that would have been a

bit of total extra distance and I

didn't want to run more than 1760

yards. So I waited until he was

really just coming into the straight

and I could overtake him without

running any extra distance.

And then

I had to... The last 100 yards or

so.

The whole of the last corner,

bend, and the finishing straight, I

just didn't know whether my legs

were getting slower, although my

brain was telling them to very much

keep going.

We are about ten yards

or so now from the line.

We are near

the line now.

As you reach this

point, what were you feeling is that

moment? You are about to...

Well, my

feelings were that I was so close,

that I couldn't really believe I'd

failed, other stopwatches held the

answer and I had to wait, I couldn't

move everyone around, and your blood

pressure falls because of blood

vessels are rolled violated and

collapsed. I think about the time I

was recovering, I heard them making

the great announcement, which he

said he had rehearsed in the bath

the night before.

You know what it

was. Well, it was that he started

with three minutes, and that nobody

else heard anything...

1200 people

there... It was and that he started

with three minutes, it was the

preamble, you know, everybody was

waiting, and he said the result is

number 41... Banister of Exeter and

Merton College in a time which,

subject to ratification, will be

track record, English record,

English native record, British

allcomers record, European record,

world record and then three.

That

was it. In the immediate aftermath.

The sense of achievement, your

parents were here as well, won't

they?

I didn't ask them. They were

brought without my knowledge. No, I

suppose that we went off to London,

the BBC's sportsnight had just been

started and so I was on that, and we

went off and had dinner, friends,

partners, and we thought, well, we

might as well wait and see what the

newspaper said. So we went into a

nightclub until about two will clock

in the morning and we thought, well,

it does seem to be causing quite a

kerfuffle.

You had some cabaret in

the nightclub, is that right?

I

don't think I did. They said I sung

something, but it is inconceivable,

impossible.

We left using time on

your hands on a nightclub on the

following day.

You have claimed

that, but I could not possibly

comment.

You certainly celebrated

the achievement. You had about two

hours sleep as I understand it that

night. The following day, busy

again, in London, at Oxford, back to

London, and the press by now were...

The three of us did have a bit of

time together and we climbed Harrow

Hill, not much of a hill, and we

look doubt that evening over London,

because he could see the lights, and

I remember a conversation with them,

they may not remember it, but what

should we do now? And of course, we

won't just thinking about athletics.

Which of course, was coming to an

end in one way or another, the

others went on longer, but what you

do? And for me, it was

straightforward.

I would go on and

do medicine. Let me take you forward

six weeks to mid June and Finland,

and Tokyo and -- Landi breaks

record.

Are new here would do it, it was

questionable whether we get it here

before he did because we had shown

that he was physically capable,

probably stronger I was and he just

needed to have a decent pace in the

early part of the race.

He shattered

it really, took it down the. -- took

down the.

Yes, that is 12 or

whatever.

down the.

Yes, that is 12 or

whatever.

down the.

Yes, that is 12 or

whatever.

down the.

Yes, that is 12 or

whatever. As far as that was

whatever. As far as that was

concerned, your contacts with Landy

were not especially frequent, but he

sent congratulations after your

record and he sent him.

You just

wonder whether there might not have

been some kind of professional

jealousy.

I was much more friendly

with him and actually got to know

him after the race in Vancouver. I

think before you race against a

major opponent, jealousy is not the

word, it's just you are a bit

circumspect. You are supposed to be

racing against them. They are, in a

metaphorical sense, the enemy. But

afterwards it didn't matter at all

and we have kept in touch, we see

one another every year and he is now

Governor of Victoria and on his way

to England now.

You have mentioned

Vancouver, why do we go there now?

This was another six weeks, it was

the Empire games and you arrived

some two weeks before the final and

you met Landy as soon as you arrived

and it then didn't see him again

until the race.

No, we were not

seeking each other out but we really

happened to coincide in our

training. I did most of my training

away from the track, he did those of

his on the track.

Leaving secretive?

Well no, I ran on grass because by

then I could work as hard as I would

on the track and it was so much

easier and less strain on the

muscles, so I didn't regard track

running. This was clearly a big

deal. It was more important than the

Formula 1 and this is the race I was

aiming at.

And not just because it

was the centrepiece of the Empire

games but in the end because

athletics is about eating and not

setting records.

Yes, and if Landy

had beaten me, I don't think the

four minute mile would have

mattered, he would have been the

best.

Talk us through that.

It was a

very hot day, quite different from

the day in May. Conditions were good

and Landy ran off immediately.

Like

a train.

And I thought he is too

fast, he will either break the world

record by five seconds or he will

slow down, in which case I will have

the advantage of. I decided that as

the early part of the race was so

fast, instead of starting a sprint

at 200 or something, I had to leave

it late and that was the moment when

I put the first in the.

That was the

strength of your game, a strong

finish. As you crossed the line, I

ask you in a sense to recapture the

moment, this was bigger than the

four-minute mile.

That was the first

time that two people had done at. I

would say the feeling was really,

relief. It could have gone badly and

in a sense it rather made up for

failure in Helsinki and I only got

one more race to go before retiring

and that race was the European race

and I think by then I was feeling

fairly confident that I could handle

that one. Release, you know, career

over and as I said in the diary as I

wrote, FINIS.

Let me conclude by

asking you a personal question. What

is your philosophy of running?

I put

it in the new edition of the book

which I put 50 years ago, which I

didn't expect to return to.

Saying that they were something

about my description of my early

life which sort of rather inspire

them try to do things. The way I had

put it, I reflected on rereading

this book, that however ordinary

each of us may seem, we are all in

somewhere special and can do that

are extraordinary,

somewhere special and can do that

are extraordinary,. And when the

broad sweep of life is viewed,

sport, instinctive and physical,

illustrates a universal truth that

most of us find effort and struggled

deeply satisfying, harnessing and

almost primaeval instinct to fight

and to survive. I think that is what

I would say, but I don't believe

that running was really more than a

metaphor for other struggles and

everybody is trying to balloon to

the Atlantic and died 400 feet,

everybody has a was wanted to do

this and it is fine if you don't

risk your life doing it and you

don't risk other people 's lives

trying to, when you haven't done it.

You have talked and written also

that the freedom that running gives

you.

Yes. Freedom of choice. When I

was chairman of the sports Council I

believed that every person, nearly

everybody, had some kind of

psychological link which made them

attuned to a certain activity, seem

more solitary, climbing mountains,

playing cricket. This range should

be explored by the young because at

the age of 13, 14, you don't know

what you are going to be best at.

Your body shape can change. I

believe that if they trying --a

choice of activities were wide

enough, you find something

irresistible and get involved at

about five years later he probably

achieve quite a lot of success and

you find you have grown up, you have

learned a lot. That is what I would

like to give as a message.

Thank you

very much for joining us on this

addition of Extra Time.