Sir Roger Bannister, the first person to run the sub-four minute mile, talks to Rob Bonnet on the same track in Oxford where he broke the record in 1954.
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Now on BBC News,
it's time for Extra Time. | 0:00:00 | 0:00:04 | |
Welcome. Following the recent death
of Sir Roger Bannister, we thought | 0:00:11 | 0:00:18 | |
you might like to seek for a second
time a special interview he gave the | 0:00:18 | 0:00:22 | |
programme in May 2000 and four. It
was recorder on the 50th anniversary | 0:00:22 | 0:00:26 | |
of the day when he became the first
man to run a sub four-minute mile. | 0:00:26 | 0:00:31 | |
We met on the same track in Oxford
where this historic achievement took | 0:00:31 | 0:00:35 | |
place. Welcome to the special
edition of extra time. Just like | 0:00:35 | 0:00:44 | |
1954. High winds, cold. You just
need a bit more rain. It really is | 0:00:44 | 0:00:49 | |
very similar? Absolutely. It is
England, early May. Equinoctial | 0:00:49 | 0:00:55 | |
upsets in weather. A really stupid
time to try to break a record. But | 0:00:55 | 0:01:03 | |
there we are. John Landy was on the
way to Finland. This was your great | 0:01:03 | 0:01:10 | |
rival. The American confidence, he
was called the Kansas cowboy, and he | 0:01:10 | 0:01:22 | |
said, I'm going to do it. You beat
him to it, and you beat John Landy. | 0:01:22 | 0:01:29 | |
Before we talk specifically about
that day here, 50 years ago, but the | 0:01:29 | 0:01:35 | |
four-minute mile into a context for
me. It was described by Landy is a | 0:01:35 | 0:01:40 | |
concrete wall, something that was
impossible to do. Like a cement | 0:01:40 | 0:01:43 | |
wall. He had done 4.2 on six
occasions. Only 15 yards. We just | 0:01:43 | 0:01:52 | |
didn't seem to be able to get
through that. He was talking about | 0:01:52 | 0:01:56 | |
it being a physical barrier, but I
couldn't see that. Four minutes two, | 0:01:56 | 0:02:03 | |
under the conditions, it pace
judgement, you can break four | 0:02:03 | 0:02:08 | |
minutes. It was a psychological
barrier. But it was a barrier that | 0:02:08 | 0:02:13 | |
galvanised not only the British
public, but athletics fans around | 0:02:13 | 0:02:16 | |
the world. They had been talking
about it for almost 100 years. Pas | 0:02:16 | 0:02:20 | |
voters did for point ten. Everything
was moving in that direction. It was | 0:02:20 | 0:02:30 | |
clear that somebody was going to do
it. Well, the Swedes did four | 0:02:30 | 0:02:35 | |
minutes 1.4. They were not involved
in the war. 1953... 1943. They | 0:02:35 | 0:02:43 | |
flip-flopped six times. They had the
crucial ingredient to break records, | 0:02:43 | 0:02:49 | |
which was several of them, all of
comparable calibre. It was the era | 0:02:49 | 0:02:56 | |
of trying to recognise achievement.
That the point. I think so. Britain | 0:02:56 | 0:03:00 | |
wasn't dead of the country, and I
did try to do it in 1953. I thought | 0:03:00 | 0:03:07 | |
that would be rather nice. The pace
judgement was not fast enough. The | 0:03:07 | 0:03:12 | |
three quarters was 3.05, and you
cannot do the last lap. It all had | 0:03:12 | 0:03:18 | |
to wait then until everything was
ready for May 19 54. And it came to | 0:03:18 | 0:03:24 | |
it in a sense of a very
disappointing Olympics in 1952. That | 0:03:24 | 0:03:29 | |
is why I did it, why I went on. I
had, my innocence, planned to win | 0:03:29 | 0:03:37 | |
the Olympic gold medal in Helsinki,
1500 metres, and my medical studies | 0:03:37 | 0:03:44 | |
were getting more and more demanding
and so I had planned to retire at | 0:03:44 | 0:03:49 | |
the end of story. I did so badly,
everyone was so disappointed, the | 0:03:49 | 0:03:56 | |
press said, you should have done
this and that, if only you had | 0:03:56 | 0:03:59 | |
listened to us, you would have won
it. The chances of winning an | 0:03:59 | 0:04:03 | |
Olympic title are always against
you. John Landy didn't win in | 0:04:03 | 0:04:06 | |
Melbourne, Ron Delany came through.
I suppose that is why spot -- sport | 0:04:06 | 0:04:14 | |
is fascinating. So you hatched a
plan. Yes, we had run together for | 0:04:14 | 0:04:21 | |
years and the secret was to do the
three quarters mile within three | 0:04:21 | 0:04:28 | |
minutes flat, and training to be a
steeplechaser, he didn't have the | 0:04:28 | 0:04:36 | |
speed to go further than half a mile
and the first lap, I got a bit | 0:04:36 | 0:04:44 | |
impatient and I shouted, faster,
faster! We're going to fast already? | 0:04:44 | 0:04:49 | |
I want to hear about the plans...
The plan was very simple. It | 0:04:49 | 0:04:54 | |
couldn't have been simpler. Chris
Brasher would run a mile and | 0:04:54 | 0:04:58 | |
Kristian away with takeover and he
would go on as long as he could and | 0:04:58 | 0:05:02 | |
then I would take over. It is all
about pacing. As far as the | 0:05:02 | 0:05:07 | |
preparation was concerned, on the
day, when you look at how | 0:05:07 | 0:05:10 | |
professional athletes themselves
ready now for major championships, | 0:05:10 | 0:05:14 | |
with all due respect, your
preparations were pretty... Ltd. I | 0:05:14 | 0:05:18 | |
went to the medical school. I didn't
feel like doing much work -- Ltd. A | 0:05:18 | 0:05:25 | |
sharpened up my spikes. We ran on
very loose -- primitive. I think | 0:05:25 | 0:05:33 | |
they think the cinders were about...
Iran about four seconds slobber. | 0:05:33 | 0:05:39 | |
Rubbed a little graphite on the
spikes. So they would come in and | 0:05:39 | 0:05:43 | |
out neatly without collecting cinder
and ash. This is your medical school | 0:05:43 | 0:05:49 | |
in London, wasn't it? Yes. And then
got a train, and as it happened, | 0:05:49 | 0:05:55 | |
when I was going, the coach to Crisp
ratio and then to Chris chat away | 0:05:55 | 0:06:05 | |
and then I joined the trio, and...
You bumped into him on the train? | 0:06:05 | 0:06:12 | |
Yes. I said, I reckoned at that time
it wasn't worth attempting, as even | 0:06:12 | 0:06:18 | |
if I'd exhorted myself in the
impossible weather and done or .1, | 0:06:18 | 0:06:23 | |
everyone would be disappointed and,
oh, he has failed. Are you saying | 0:06:23 | 0:06:28 | |
this was the one and only
opportunity? It was the first | 0:06:28 | 0:06:32 | |
opportunity that year, and John
Landy had just arrived in Finland. | 0:06:32 | 0:06:36 | |
He had finished the Australian
summer, our winter, and the Finns | 0:06:36 | 0:06:43 | |
had said, you know, they knew he was
looking at the door, and they said | 0:06:43 | 0:06:48 | |
come to Finland, they give you the
pasting you need, and there were | 0:06:48 | 0:06:53 | |
perfect tracks and the Finns were
also absolutely obsessed almost with | 0:06:53 | 0:06:59 | |
running, so it had to be done very
quickly, and that was why one would | 0:06:59 | 0:07:08 | |
normally think of trying to break a
record on a windy, wet, cold English | 0:07:08 | 0:07:15 | |
May Day. So you're right at Oxford
station with your coach, then you | 0:07:15 | 0:07:19 | |
went and had lunch with a friend...
The people I have stayed with when I | 0:07:19 | 0:07:23 | |
was earlier studying here, I had
left Oxford, and I had lunch with | 0:07:23 | 0:07:31 | |
the children and just tried to allow
my mind... The waiting is one of the | 0:07:31 | 0:07:37 | |
worst parts of athletics. Perhaps
any sport. Participation in | 0:07:37 | 0:07:44 | |
anticipation, fear. And you value
will never go through this again. | 0:07:44 | 0:07:48 | |
You say absolutely it isn't worth
this agony. And then the thought | 0:07:48 | 0:07:52 | |
was, well, will I get another
chance? Will Landy do it first? | 0:07:52 | 0:07:57 | |
Would you forgive yourself if you
missed this possible opportunity? | 0:07:57 | 0:08:02 | |
And eventually, I reckon about half
an hour before I was looking at a | 0:08:02 | 0:08:07 | |
flag on that church steeple, which
the flat was broken, but it will be | 0:08:07 | 0:08:13 | |
here on the sixth. I used that as a
wind gauge. And what was telling | 0:08:13 | 0:08:19 | |
you? It was telling me about half an
hour before, that things were | 0:08:19 | 0:08:24 | |
beginning to slacken and get a bit
less windy. So I thought, well, | 0:08:24 | 0:08:28 | |
let's do it. I hope the wind stays
down, you know, a gentle five | 0:08:28 | 0:08:37 | |
minutes, and then Chris Brasher did
a false start, which was a waste of | 0:08:37 | 0:08:42 | |
time. You must have been serious
then. Well, he is not usual to make | 0:08:42 | 0:08:48 | |
false starts in the mile. So then
Brasher leads off... He leads off | 0:08:48 | 0:08:55 | |
and I think he's going to slowly
because I suppose I have had a rest | 0:08:55 | 0:09:00 | |
for several days from running, and
so I shout, faster, faster, and he | 0:09:00 | 0:09:07 | |
takes no notice whatsoever. He said,
well, I thought I was probably doing | 0:09:07 | 0:09:14 | |
it at the right speed, and he said,
I couldn't go any faster anyway. So | 0:09:14 | 0:09:18 | |
he does a good first lap, 58, you
run the first 15 yards faster, you | 0:09:18 | 0:09:26 | |
sprint until you get a good
position. The Times were called out. | 0:09:26 | 0:09:31 | |
Everybody could hear the time. The
new settled down to what is a | 0:09:31 | 0:09:35 | |
four-minute mile pace, as closely as
you can, 60 seconds, and they did | 0:09:35 | 0:09:40 | |
the next lap in 60 seconds, so it
was a 1.5 8/2 mile. You knew you | 0:09:40 | 0:09:44 | |
were on course at that time. We were
absolutely on course. He felt we | 0:09:44 | 0:09:50 | |
were slowing and I think, I said,
you know, whatever I did say to him, | 0:09:50 | 0:09:55 | |
Chris, come up, Chris chat away. And
then he took over. It is inevitable | 0:09:55 | 0:10:02 | |
that the third lap slows, you know,
it just happens in pretty well all | 0:10:02 | 0:10:08 | |
races. And Chris took me through the
three quarters mile in three minutes | 0:10:08 | 0:10:14 | |
point five. So we had slowed at the
last lap was, the third lap was 62, | 0:10:14 | 0:10:22 | |
and so I had to do the last lap in
59 and I was really trying to decide | 0:10:22 | 0:10:29 | |
what moment to overtake him. Because
it was a help, while he was the head | 0:10:29 | 0:10:37 | |
and gave the right speed, and if I
had overtaken him on the next two | 0:10:37 | 0:10:43 | |
last bend, I would have had to have
run wide and that would have been a | 0:10:43 | 0:10:49 | |
bit of total extra distance and I
didn't want to run more than 1760 | 0:10:49 | 0:10:54 | |
yards. So I waited until he was
really just coming into the straight | 0:10:54 | 0:11:01 | |
and I could overtake him without
running any extra distance. And then | 0:11:01 | 0:11:04 | |
I had to... The last 100 yards or
so. The whole of the last corner, | 0:11:04 | 0:11:12 | |
bend, and the finishing straight, I
just didn't know whether my legs | 0:11:12 | 0:11:17 | |
were getting slower, although my
brain was telling them to very much | 0:11:17 | 0:11:23 | |
keep going. We are about ten yards
or so now from the line. We are near | 0:11:23 | 0:11:29 | |
the line now. As you reach this
point, what were you feeling is that | 0:11:29 | 0:11:35 | |
moment? You are about to... Well, my
feelings were that I was so close, | 0:11:35 | 0:11:42 | |
that I couldn't really believe I'd
failed, other stopwatches held the | 0:11:42 | 0:11:47 | |
answer and I had to wait, I couldn't
move everyone around, and your blood | 0:11:47 | 0:11:56 | |
pressure falls because of blood
vessels are rolled violated and | 0:11:56 | 0:11:59 | |
collapsed. I think about the time I
was recovering, I heard them making | 0:11:59 | 0:12:09 | |
the great announcement, which he
said he had rehearsed in the bath | 0:12:09 | 0:12:12 | |
the night before. You know what it
was. Well, it was that he started | 0:12:12 | 0:12:16 | |
with three minutes, and that nobody
else heard anything... 1200 people | 0:12:16 | 0:12:19 | |
there... It was and that he started
with three minutes, it was the | 0:12:19 | 0:12:23 | |
preamble, you know, everybody was
waiting, and he said the result is | 0:12:23 | 0:12:29 | |
number 41... Banister of Exeter and
Merton College in a time which, | 0:12:29 | 0:12:38 | |
subject to ratification, will be
track record, English record, | 0:12:38 | 0:12:44 | |
English native record, British
allcomers record, European record, | 0:12:44 | 0:12:50 | |
world record and then three. That
was it. In the immediate aftermath. | 0:12:50 | 0:12:56 | |
The sense of achievement, your
parents were here as well, won't | 0:12:56 | 0:13:02 | |
they? I didn't ask them. They were
brought without my knowledge. No, I | 0:13:02 | 0:13:07 | |
suppose that we went off to London,
the BBC's sportsnight had just been | 0:13:07 | 0:13:13 | |
started and so I was on that, and we
went off and had dinner, friends, | 0:13:13 | 0:13:20 | |
partners, and we thought, well, we
might as well wait and see what the | 0:13:20 | 0:13:25 | |
newspaper said. So we went into a
nightclub until about two will clock | 0:13:25 | 0:13:29 | |
in the morning and we thought, well,
it does seem to be causing quite a | 0:13:29 | 0:13:33 | |
kerfuffle. You had some cabaret in
the nightclub, is that right? I | 0:13:33 | 0:13:37 | |
don't think I did. They said I sung
something, but it is inconceivable, | 0:13:37 | 0:13:43 | |
impossible. We left using time on
your hands on a nightclub on the | 0:13:43 | 0:13:47 | |
following day. You have claimed
that, but I could not possibly | 0:13:47 | 0:13:50 | |
comment. You certainly celebrated
the achievement. You had about two | 0:13:50 | 0:13:54 | |
hours sleep as I understand it that
night. The following day, busy | 0:13:54 | 0:13:58 | |
again, in London, at Oxford, back to
London, and the press by now were... | 0:13:58 | 0:14:04 | |
The three of us did have a bit of
time together and we climbed Harrow | 0:14:04 | 0:14:12 | |
Hill, not much of a hill, and we
look doubt that evening over London, | 0:14:12 | 0:14:17 | |
because he could see the lights, and
I remember a conversation with them, | 0:14:17 | 0:14:23 | |
they may not remember it, but what
should we do now? And of course, we | 0:14:23 | 0:14:27 | |
won't just thinking about athletics.
Which of course, was coming to an | 0:14:27 | 0:14:33 | |
end in one way or another, the
others went on longer, but what you | 0:14:33 | 0:14:39 | |
do? And for me, it was
straightforward. I would go on and | 0:14:39 | 0:14:42 | |
do medicine. Let me take you forward
six weeks to mid June and Finland, | 0:14:42 | 0:14:47 | |
and Tokyo and -- Landi breaks
record. | 0:14:47 | 0:14:56 | |
Are new here would do it, it was
questionable whether we get it here | 0:14:57 | 0:15:00 | |
before he did because we had shown
that he was physically capable, | 0:15:00 | 0:15:05 | |
probably stronger I was and he just
needed to have a decent pace in the | 0:15:05 | 0:15:10 | |
early part of the race. He shattered
it really, took it down the. -- took | 0:15:10 | 0:15:18 | |
down the. Yes, that is 12 or
whatever. | 0:15:18 | 0:15:23 | |
down the. Yes, that is 12 or
whatever. | 0:15:23 | 0:15:24 | |
down the. Yes, that is 12 or
whatever. | 0:15:24 | 0:15:24 | |
down the. Yes, that is 12 or
whatever. As far as that was | 0:15:24 | 0:15:27 | |
whatever. As far as that was
concerned, your contacts with Landy | 0:15:27 | 0:15:30 | |
were not especially frequent, but he
sent congratulations after your | 0:15:30 | 0:15:34 | |
record and he sent him. You just
wonder whether there might not have | 0:15:34 | 0:15:39 | |
been some kind of professional
jealousy. I was much more friendly | 0:15:39 | 0:15:44 | |
with him and actually got to know
him after the race in Vancouver. I | 0:15:44 | 0:15:50 | |
think before you race against a
major opponent, jealousy is not the | 0:15:50 | 0:15:55 | |
word, it's just you are a bit
circumspect. You are supposed to be | 0:15:55 | 0:16:03 | |
racing against them. They are, in a
metaphorical sense, the enemy. But | 0:16:03 | 0:16:13 | |
afterwards it didn't matter at all
and we have kept in touch, we see | 0:16:13 | 0:16:16 | |
one another every year and he is now
Governor of Victoria and on his way | 0:16:16 | 0:16:24 | |
to England now. You have mentioned
Vancouver, why do we go there now? | 0:16:24 | 0:16:29 | |
This was another six weeks, it was
the Empire games and you arrived | 0:16:29 | 0:16:37 | |
some two weeks before the final and
you met Landy as soon as you arrived | 0:16:37 | 0:16:42 | |
and it then didn't see him again
until the race. No, we were not | 0:16:42 | 0:16:46 | |
seeking each other out but we really
happened to coincide in our | 0:16:46 | 0:16:50 | |
training. I did most of my training
away from the track, he did those of | 0:16:50 | 0:16:54 | |
his on the track. Leaving secretive?
Well no, I ran on grass because by | 0:16:54 | 0:17:01 | |
then I could work as hard as I would
on the track and it was so much | 0:17:01 | 0:17:05 | |
easier and less strain on the
muscles, so I didn't regard track | 0:17:05 | 0:17:10 | |
running. This was clearly a big
deal. It was more important than the | 0:17:10 | 0:17:15 | |
Formula 1 and this is the race I was
aiming at. And not just because it | 0:17:15 | 0:17:20 | |
was the centrepiece of the Empire
games but in the end because | 0:17:20 | 0:17:23 | |
athletics is about eating and not
setting records. Yes, and if Landy | 0:17:23 | 0:17:30 | |
had beaten me, I don't think the
four minute mile would have | 0:17:30 | 0:17:35 | |
mattered, he would have been the
best. Talk us through that. It was a | 0:17:35 | 0:17:40 | |
very hot day, quite different from
the day in May. Conditions were good | 0:17:40 | 0:17:49 | |
and Landy ran off immediately. Like
a train. And I thought he is too | 0:17:49 | 0:17:59 | |
fast, he will either break the world
record by five seconds or he will | 0:17:59 | 0:18:03 | |
slow down, in which case I will have
the advantage of. I decided that as | 0:18:03 | 0:18:07 | |
the early part of the race was so
fast, instead of starting a sprint | 0:18:07 | 0:18:15 | |
at 200 or something, I had to leave
it late and that was the moment when | 0:18:15 | 0:18:19 | |
I put the first in the. That was the
strength of your game, a strong | 0:18:19 | 0:18:25 | |
finish. As you crossed the line, I
ask you in a sense to recapture the | 0:18:25 | 0:18:32 | |
moment, this was bigger than the
four-minute mile. That was the first | 0:18:32 | 0:18:39 | |
time that two people had done at. I
would say the feeling was really, | 0:18:39 | 0:18:43 | |
relief. It could have gone badly and
in a sense it rather made up for | 0:18:43 | 0:18:51 | |
failure in Helsinki and I only got
one more race to go before retiring | 0:18:51 | 0:18:58 | |
and that race was the European race
and I think by then I was feeling | 0:18:58 | 0:19:03 | |
fairly confident that I could handle
that one. Release, you know, career | 0:19:03 | 0:19:08 | |
over and as I said in the diary as I
wrote, FINIS. Let me conclude by | 0:19:08 | 0:19:18 | |
asking you a personal question. What
is your philosophy of running? I put | 0:19:18 | 0:19:24 | |
it in the new edition of the book
which I put 50 years ago, which I | 0:19:24 | 0:19:29 | |
didn't expect to return to. | 0:19:29 | 0:19:31 | |
Saying that they were something
about my description of my early | 0:19:34 | 0:19:37 | |
life which sort of rather inspire
them try to do things. The way I had | 0:19:37 | 0:19:44 | |
put it, I reflected on rereading
this book, that however ordinary | 0:19:44 | 0:19:50 | |
each of us may seem, we are all in
somewhere special and can do that | 0:19:50 | 0:19:54 | |
are extraordinary, | 0:19:54 | 0:19:58 | |
somewhere special and can do that
are extraordinary,. And when the | 0:19:58 | 0:20:00 | |
broad sweep of life is viewed,
sport, instinctive and physical, | 0:20:00 | 0:20:05 | |
illustrates a universal truth that
most of us find effort and struggled | 0:20:05 | 0:20:12 | |
deeply satisfying, harnessing and
almost primaeval instinct to fight | 0:20:12 | 0:20:15 | |
and to survive. I think that is what
I would say, but I don't believe | 0:20:15 | 0:20:19 | |
that running was really more than a
metaphor for other struggles and | 0:20:19 | 0:20:29 | |
everybody is trying to balloon to
the Atlantic and died 400 feet, | 0:20:29 | 0:20:34 | |
everybody has a was wanted to do
this and it is fine if you don't | 0:20:34 | 0:20:38 | |
risk your life doing it and you
don't risk other people 's lives | 0:20:38 | 0:20:42 | |
trying to, when you haven't done it.
You have talked and written also | 0:20:42 | 0:20:47 | |
that the freedom that running gives
you. Yes. Freedom of choice. When I | 0:20:47 | 0:20:53 | |
was chairman of the sports Council I
believed that every person, nearly | 0:20:53 | 0:20:56 | |
everybody, had some kind of
psychological link which made them | 0:20:56 | 0:21:03 | |
attuned to a certain activity, seem
more solitary, climbing mountains, | 0:21:03 | 0:21:11 | |
playing cricket. This range should
be explored by the young because at | 0:21:11 | 0:21:19 | |
the age of 13, 14, you don't know
what you are going to be best at. | 0:21:19 | 0:21:23 | |
Your body shape can change. I
believe that if they trying --a | 0:21:23 | 0:21:29 | |
choice of activities were wide
enough, you find something | 0:21:29 | 0:21:32 | |
irresistible and get involved at
about five years later he probably | 0:21:32 | 0:21:36 | |
achieve quite a lot of success and
you find you have grown up, you have | 0:21:36 | 0:21:41 | |
learned a lot. That is what I would
like to give as a message. Thank you | 0:21:41 | 0:21:45 | |
very much for joining us on this
addition of Extra Time. | 0:21:45 | 0:21:53 |
In 2004 Extra Time's Rob Bonnet spoke to the late Sir Roger Bannister on the same track in Oxford where he first broke the sub-four minute mile record. On May the 6th 1954 25-year old Roger Bannister set out to break what had seemed an impenetrable barrier in athletics - to run the mile in less than four minutes. For decades, the prevailing thought in the sports community was that the feat was impossible and, even if it were accomplished, it would so overtax the body that death would result. Bannister proved them wrong crossing the finish line in three minutes 59.4 seconds.