11/03/2018 MOTD2 Extra


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11/03/2018

Mark Chapman and guests analyse Saturday's Premier League matches and look ahead to Sunday's action, featuring Arsenal against Watford and Tottenham's trip to Bournemouth.


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Hello and welcome to Match of the

Day to extra on BBC Two, five Live,

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the BBC sport website, app and on

the iPlayer. Joining the art,

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Arsenal and England defender Martin

Keown, former Manchester City

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defender and Carlisle manager Keith

Curle and Chief sports writer of the

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Daily Mirror Andy Dunne. You can get

in touch across social media and

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text us as well. These are the

subjects we will be discussing the

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next 45 minutes, obviously the

scenes at the London Stadium with

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pitch invasions and fans protesting

as West Ham lost 3-0 at home to

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Burnley. We will talk about I'm

Every Woman beating Liverpool with

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two goals from Marcus Rashford.

Mauricio Pellegrino questioned the

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spirit of south London after they

lost at Newcastle and they are just

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a point above the relegation zone

and we will have the team news from

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the Emirates as well from the first

game with Arsenal at home to

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Watford. The back pages dominated by

events at West Ham, Anarchy is the

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headline in the Sunday Mirror. The

Mail on Sunday has hammers day of

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shame. They say games to be played

behind closed doors.

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behind closed doors. -- could be

played. We will hear from Mark Noble

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shortly but what are your views on

what happened?

With what happened

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yesterday, what was sad about it in

a way, was that it was predictable.

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If we have heard one word about the

atmosphere at the London Stadium it

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has been toxic, that is the word we

keep hearing. I think it is the

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culmination of a combination of

things that has led to this which

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had its roots, whatever the owners

say, in the stadium move. However

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they dress it up it was a piece of

commercial opportunism. Bit of.

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Fine, you go to the stadium and it's

not a football stadium -- that's

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fine. To overcome those things and

get over those things and put those

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to the back of the minds of

supporters you need a winning team

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that is exciting and challenging in

the top half of the league and they

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don't have that. Throw in the fact,

and I am sure this is only a minor

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part in the week they announced they

made a profit of £43 million, and it

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is a cocktail of things that leads

to the unrest. As to what happened,

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there are logistical things that

need addressing the stewarding, the

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FA will look into it, it is alarming

how easily they got onto the pitch

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and how they could surround the

directors box, all of these things

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need to be addressed. Going back to

it, it has been brewing for a long

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time.

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time.

On the football perspective,

teeth, they were 1-0 down when the

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first pitch invasions

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first pitch invasions happened --

Keith. Before we come back to the

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club as a whole, can you put part of

the blame of the defeat on the pitch

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invasions and everybody losing

concentration?

I think it is about

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distractions, what is going on in

the stadium, if it affects you as a

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player and manager and coach and it

will, especially with the pitch

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invasion. Can it get used as an

excuse? I don't think so. As a

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manager, distractions go on every

day in football and you have to keep

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your focus. I think David Moyes, he

said for periods within the game he

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was pleased with their performance.

But obviously conceding three goals,

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he will not be happy and the

distractions are difficult.

Would

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you have been worried for your

personal safety if you had been on

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that pitch as a player?

No, it was

not enough...

It only takes one.

It

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does and I can understand Mark Noble

reacting the way he did but I would

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say this to West Ham fans, when you

went there as a player, Upton Park

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was very different, but they were

the 12th man. That dislike of the

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opposition, it is now being pumped

to their own club and it's a

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disaster waiting to happen. It does

not reflect very well on the Premier

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League how they are able to get such

easy access to the pitch, that is

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ridiculous and they should be in a

lot of trouble for that in this day

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and age, it's not right they can do

that. It's not the best place to

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watch football, we know that, but

this is turning the gun on

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themselves. The team is trying to

play in that toxic atmosphere and

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they capitulated. It had to be the

fans that affected them on the day.

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But if you are so dissatisfied as

groups of fans, and that all sorts

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of different groups of fans in this

protest as well, but if you're

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dissatisfied as a group, with the

ownership, the way the club is run,

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with what has happened, then moving

and everything else, is it worth, to

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use your phrase turning the gun on

yourself, to try to get a different

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ownership?

They feel it is but it

could end up with them being

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relegated. All of the other teams

down there will have the support,

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generally people are behind you.

Stay in the Premier League, sort out

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the problems, I think David Moyes is

done a good job to be honest, until

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recently when it has gone bad for

him. But let them play and get on

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with it and be united. They are

divided at the moment.

They brought

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in David Moyes to stay in the

Premier League and he has a proven

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record, nine years in the top ten at

Everton. A proven Premier League

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manager. They're giving him a short

contract and I don't think that has

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helped. If he wants to attract

players in the transfer windows and

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things like that, big-money signings

aren't going to come to a club that

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has a manager in place for six

months.

This is the point, the

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stadium move to be sold to fans

because they did not want to move.

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You have to sell it to them as it's

not just this great opportunity that

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we can't turn down to move into a

massive stadium for what amounts to

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a peppercorn rent, you had to sell

it to them. The way it was sold to

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them was that the move would

facilitate a team that was not in a

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survival battle and would go to the

next level and be able to attract

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the big players. And it happened,

they could not even keep Dimitri

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Payet will stop it is symptomatic.

You're not attracting top players or

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they're not going for them and are

not spending that amount of money.

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If the fans feel they have been sold

that idea, that this is what the

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move will do, moving to the next

level, they are now West Ham London

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as it is in the badge, bigger and

better.

The playing side is so very

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different to now, it is so intense

at Upton Park and the football was

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so quick. They had a good season in

the last one and did well but the

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transition to the new home, it's not

their home, it doesn't feel like it.

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There is so much space. They can

lose by a lot of goals when it goes

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wrong for them and it seems the

wheels come off. They have not bound

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a way to play the right football on

that pitch -- found a way.

From the

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perspective of the fans, it is not

just the experience of watching the

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game in the stadium, it is

everything else that builds up to

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watching it. It is going to the pub

you always go to, the cafe, walking

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down the same roads, and if you walk

to a game at the London Stadium, it

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is the most soulless experience you

could possibly have. I said last

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week I loved going to West Ham, when

I'd said that I meant I used to love

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going to Upton Park because the buzz

was amazing but it is soulless going

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to the London Stadium.

We played at

Upton Park, and the experience as a

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player started going through the

roads on the coach. It was an

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intimidating place to go to and the

crowd were that close.

You could

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smell the pie and mash and see the

guys in the pubs.

There is no

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getting away from the fact that a

winning team would mask a lot of

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problems, you might complain that

much if the teams were turning big

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teams over. The walk back through

the shopping centre would not be too

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bad, you might pop into a popular

retail store! That would mask a lot

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but I understand what you're saying.

It is almost a lesson that other

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clubs could look at. The automatic

thing is that we must move stadiums,

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Everton are in this situation. I

think it slightly different, I don't

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know if Everton fans see that,

Goodison Park, with the same

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affection that West Ham fans saw

Upton Park, maybe they do. But they

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have to be very careful of what

you're moving to.

John says West Ham

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fans should be embarrassed about

behaviour, it is appalling, many

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teams have gone through worse times

and I hope they go down. James says

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that for people to call our fans a

disgrace they don't understand the

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context of what has been happening

at West Ham, it has been building a

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long time to the light from the

board the lack of investment and

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planning in the team, the traditions

of what was a family event club have

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been taken away, today we have

reached the limit. This was Mark

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Noble.

The atmosphere was horrible.

Obviously we had fans running on the

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pitch. To be honest, we know a lot

of it isn't aimed at the players. It

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is other reasons. But we have to be

men enough to be able to play in

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that atmosphere. It's hard, don't

get me wrong, especially when you've

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got 50, 60,000 hip and a big

percentage of them are not happy

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with how the club is -- 60,000 here.

The players take the brunt of it.

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Listen, they are true, honest,

passionate bunch of people, I know

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that, I've played in front of them

for 15 years. I'm hoping to date

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that they've had that outburst,

hopefully, because all that matters

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really is staying in the Premier

League for us.

There are all sorts

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of things you feel the need managing

at West Ham, one of them is the

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relationship between fans and the

club and that is no different to any

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manager or club in any community.

Definitely.

But the manager and

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players have to play a part.

When I

first went to Carlisle at a manager

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there were banners everywhere, board

of the board, they wanted new

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investment, but I was made aware of

that with the owners and the

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chairman in the interviews -- bored

of the board. I had to communicate

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to the supporters and get the

message and the focus from the

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directors box onto the pitch. We

were in a relegation fight on the

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back end of a relegation.

Everybody's talking about the owners

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after the games and investment. I

did a lot of work in the local

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media, getting the focus back on to

the football.

Was it a long process?

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We won the first three games, and

after that people were walking away

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from Brunton Park talking about

surviving. But we lost the next

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couple and there is soon a bit of

unrest and negativity and people are

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talking again about the ownership

and that they were letting me down.

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My job as the manager was to go out

and say no, the football department

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will take care of results. I had to

make sure I did not get involved in

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politics because that was ongoing

and they are still ongoing in some

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departments. But it is about

communicating. The stakeholders, the

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owners, the manager communicating

with the supporters and not getting

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involved too much in the politics.

And by the way, Rangers have just

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gone 2-1 up in the Old Firm. That is

at Ibrox, almost half an hour gone.

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The communication at West Ham is a

problem as well.

It is, it could be,

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it can be a positive or negative. If

you are getting a running commentary

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from your owners, like you do on

social media...

And their family

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members.

Do you commend them for

saying, it is good that supporters

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can have that direct interaction

with the owners? If you are at

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Manchester United or Chelsea or

whatever, you don't have Roman

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Abramovich tweeting. And some fans

will like it. But when it's going

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wrong and David Sullivan says, I

think it was in the case of Slaven

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Bilic, I offered him Renato Sanches

and Krychowiak, it's a bit much

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information.

There is no at times.

And what type of players and by --

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there is no decorum at times. But if

it goes well they will be held up as

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owners communicating with France.

Their next home game is against

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Southampton.

And Manchester United

they play as well. They have to get

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together at the club, communication

is important. These supporters have

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to get behind them and put the

energy behind the team.

The message

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has to come out the club, this year

is about survival and they that by

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getting results. With supporters

coming on the pitch, no matter what

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happens, that cannot happen.

The

irony of the situation will be, with

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fans chanting to sack the board, who

does that? The board can't sack

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themselves.

The interesting thing on

that, we had this discussion a

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couple of times, like when people

say to sack the manager, you don't

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then go, who do you want to come in?

That is even harder when you're

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looking at ownership competitive

managers.

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managers.

Presumably the chain of

events would be that Sullivan and

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gold get so fed up that they put the

club up for sale but the irony of

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that, assuming they stay in the

Premier League, they would end up

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making an awful lot of money. If

they sold the club. If they said

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we've had enough. I am not sure the

fans would be too bothered, if the

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majority want them out but that

would be the irony, that moving into

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this stadium going forward the club

is worth more money than it was.

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Should they stay away from the home

games, the owners?

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We had it with my chairman at

Carlisle and a couple of the owners,

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it went a bit low profile but the

chairman was 81 years old, a

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chairman for 57 years and seen the

good times and badges. He comes to

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every single home game and away game

and he travels miles. His and

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passion for the club is

unquestionable. And you get a small

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minority of people turning around,

shouting, sack the board! He is a

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brave man because he will turn up

because of his principles and what

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he wants for the club and sometimes

you go through transitional periods

0:16:010:16:07

where you have to stick together as

a football club. He doesn't ever

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push me out as well.

If they went,

and the club was sold, the

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commercial opportunities and

opportunism he spoke about would get

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even worse, would it?

0:16:200:16:26

even worse, would it?

No, it would,

in a way, they have capitalised on

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it. I think it would be valued now

going forward, I don't think

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someone, given, they would see it as

a good investment. But it wouldn't

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be the sort of investment it was, it

has turned out to be for these guys

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and that is the problem. A lot of --

fans can profess about having the

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club at Hearts and they might well

do, who we to say they have not? But

0:16:480:16:54

from a business and commercial and

opportunistic and financial sense,

0:16:540:16:57

it is a great deal for them.

How do

you think West Ham will be punished?

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On this occasion, and would have

thought a suspended fine and a

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suspended part ground closure, a

foreclosure will not happen. And

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they will be asked to explain what

went wrong with stewarding. I think

0:17:120:17:17

a suspended fine and may be part

ground closure.

Is this different

0:17:170:17:22

what happened at West Ham, is this

different to the pitch invasion at

0:17:220:17:28

the end of Wigan and Manchester City

at the end of the FA Cup?

Well, yes.

0:17:280:17:34

Why? We would going on to celebrate

an incredible result.

But players

0:17:340:17:41

safety was more compromised, you

could argue, at Wigan rather than

0:17:410:17:44

West Ham.

You could argue, but from

time to time over the years, we have

0:17:440:17:48

seen supporters coming onto the

pitch because of a joyous occasion

0:17:480:17:53

and they were celebrating that. You

are hoping, OK, there was an

0:17:530:17:57

incident with Aguero and that was

unfortunate. This is different, it

0:17:570:18:02

is fans wanting to vent their anger

and it is almost like a symbolism of

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how bad the club is at the moment

and how divided it is and that is a

0:18:060:18:10

huge noise they are making. They

decided to do this because they have

0:18:100:18:13

not been listened to by the owners.

I wonder what you can have one rule

0:18:130:18:18

for one pitch invasion and another

for another?

Like Mike said, at the

0:18:180:18:23

end of the season, and of Cup games,

people get overenthusiastic. But I

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think the easy way is, you are not

allowed on the pitch.

They are not

0:18:290:18:37

doing that during the FA Cup.

If you want to get in touch, let's

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know. Arsenal versus Amrit of the

first game this Sunday afternoon,

0:18:440:18:48

John Watson has the team news. --

versus Sunderland.

0:18:480:18:55

Six changes for Arsenal following

the AC Milan game on Sunday. Niles

0:18:550:19:01

replacing chambers, holding in the

middle replacing Koscielny.

0:19:010:19:10

middle replacing Koscielny. And

Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang replacing

0:19:110:19:12

well back. Ramsey and Wilts may have

been left out with Arsene Wenger's

0:19:120:19:19

mind on the second leg against AC

Milan on Thursday. Ramires plays at

0:19:190:19:25

right back for Watford. A new face

on the bench, Jerome Sinclair, a

0:19:250:19:33

young English striker who Watford

signed from Liverpool.

0:19:330:19:39

1:30pm kick-off at the Emirates,

Martin, Keith and Andy in the

0:19:390:19:49

studio. Do you think Arsene Wenger

is prioritising the rope a league?

0:19:490:19:52

100%. Understandably so? Of course,

that is how he works at holding onto

0:19:520:19:58

his job, is that bigger problem. The

AC Milan was quite refreshing to see

0:19:580:20:05

them play, he talked about being

pragmatic but he was returning to

0:20:050:20:09

his philosophy because he played

Ramsey and Wilshere together

0:20:090:20:12

honourably for only the second time

in five years. And that was only --

0:20:120:20:19

a very attacking performance and

they rekindled their confidence

0:20:190:20:22

overnight. A lot of changes today,

Troy Deeney was a player in the

0:20:220:20:27

dugout after their last win, the

players, saying they did not

0:20:270:20:40

players, saying they did not have

any cojones.. Interesting to see

0:20:400:20:42

that rings true. I would be looking

for him going into today.

I don't

0:20:420:20:47

doubt that for one minute. Would you

be using that to inspire your team

0:20:470:20:51

if an opponent said that against you

earlier?

Yes. It would be a

0:20:510:20:56

newspaper cutting on the changing

room wall. You use anything as a

0:20:560:21:02

manager and coach to give your team

extra spark. Going back to Arsenal

0:21:020:21:09

with the win midweek. He needed a

win in any competition. How he has

0:21:090:21:14

handled the media, the press, the

negative press he has been getting.

0:21:140:21:21

I watch his interviews and he is a

man under pressure. How you has

0:21:210:21:25

handled it and himself under

pressure is excellent. As a manager,

0:21:250:21:30

I have a lot of respect and a lot of

time for him.

When you study his

0:21:300:21:36

interviews, what you like about

them, in the sense that he does not

0:21:360:21:39

rise to anything? It is the same

demeanour?

Yes, he has a level of

0:21:390:21:47

consistency about him. Some of the

questions from the media and the

0:21:470:21:51

reporters, you think, that is

naughty. I get it, my local press,

0:21:510:21:54

some questions, I am like, I don't

like that. And I usually go off on a

0:21:540:21:59

tangent and give an answer about

eight minutes long and don't reply

0:21:590:22:06

to the question. Keith, meet Martin!

But how he has handled the press and

0:22:060:22:12

the situation, a lot of credit to

him.

As a former player, it is very

0:22:120:22:17

difficult to talk about coach macro

because he is probably the best

0:22:170:22:21

manager I have ever worked for and

there has been a decline, without

0:22:210:22:25

doubt, but obviously, you are loyal

to him, but you have a

0:22:250:22:31

responsibility to say what you see.

And things have not gone as he would

0:22:310:22:36

have liked. But the way he handles

those questions, he just remains

0:22:360:22:41

remarkably consistent because that

his out he is, remarkably stable.

0:22:410:22:45

The team is not performing the ship,

but he will see it as a lifeline,

0:22:450:22:49

the Europa League, because he is a

survivor. He survives and it would

0:22:490:22:54

not surprise me if he got through

and Atletico Madrid will probably

0:22:540:22:57

have something to say about that and

he has not got past Milan but that

0:22:570:23:01

is what he's clinging to. Today is

not a sideshow but he is the team,

0:23:010:23:07

he has made changes because of

Milan.

Keith is saying about the

0:23:070:23:12

curveball questions and how he

handles those, he has been doing

0:23:120:23:17

this for over two decades. Just as a

sideline to the relationship the

0:23:170:23:21

press have with him, I cannot

remember him ever dodging the

0:23:210:23:25

question or an interview, ever

dodging a press conference and not

0:23:250:23:29

turning up for a press conference,

ever banning an individual

0:23:290:23:31

journalist. We know managers who

have banned journalists, every other

0:23:310:23:36

week. He has never banned individual

journalists. But he has never

0:23:360:23:43

developed any relationships with

journalists. You would get managers

0:23:430:23:47

who have their favourites

journalists. So it is very

0:23:470:23:49

intriguing. He is not beholden to

anyone. He maintains that sort of

0:23:490:23:54

detachment from us and I think

that... Really important, don't you

0:23:540:24:02

think? It is important. But you then

get, if a manager does have certain

0:24:020:24:09

relationships with certain

journalists, we would like to think

0:24:090:24:12

we would not be influenced by that.

But we could not sit here and say,

0:24:120:24:15

we are not going to look on the

positive side of things if we have a

0:24:150:24:20

good relationship with that manager.

This week, he said something very

0:24:200:24:25

interesting, that he does not take

anything personal. It is not a

0:24:250:24:29

personal attack on me, it is an

attack on my performances and my

0:24:290:24:32

results. He separates himself almost

so he can step back. If you take

0:24:320:24:38

things personally, you react to

them.

Is that just because of the

0:24:380:24:43

results or because of the fact every

time he picks up a newspaper or he

0:24:430:24:46

watches people on television or the

radio, they are calling for him

0:24:460:24:50

basically to be sacked, basically.

We all have to live with that.

At no

0:24:500:24:59

point, he has questioned whether he

has still got it any more, he still

0:24:590:25:02

believes in himself, he has to do

that first. He keeps himself stable.

0:25:020:25:07

The first hour of the day is for

him, he exercises and focuses for

0:25:070:25:11

the day and the rest of the day is

for everyone else and he has to be

0:25:110:25:15

in the position as a manager, it is

something I have never done, you

0:25:150:25:19

understand it.

Do you lead and do

you listen and maybe when, it is it

0:25:190:25:26

more of a bubble in Carlisle? Or do

you not look at the local paper or

0:25:260:25:32

listen to the radio?

If we won, I

look at the paper. If we have lost,

0:25:320:25:39

I stay awake and I don't switch the

radio on or go to the club's

0:25:390:25:44

website, I stay away from

negativity.

Is that hard to do as a

0:25:440:25:50

manager?

Yes. Because we lose games.

The thing I do as a manager, I

0:25:500:25:56

protect my players. If we have

negative results, it is all about me

0:25:560:26:00

and I have said it in the local

press. When we are winning, I share

0:26:000:26:03

the success with everybody involved

in the club that helps us get

0:26:030:26:07

results, I share that. When we lose,

blame me. If you go two goals down,

0:26:070:26:15

I want to be the focal point. If

there is any disgruntlement in the

0:26:150:26:21

crowd, focus it on me. I need my

players to perform. The environment

0:26:210:26:26

they are playing in now is not

conducive to players going out and

0:26:260:26:30

expressing themselves.

Have you

always done that in your managerial

0:26:300:26:34

career or have you learned to

experience to do that? And how

0:26:340:26:38

mentally difficult is that?

I was

lucky, I worked with Neil Warnock.

0:26:380:26:43

He is a character, he goes into the

grounds and before a ball has been

0:26:430:26:50

kicked, he is getting abuse. But he

enjoys it. The abuse from the way

0:26:500:26:56

supporters, not his own! One thing I

picked up from him was if things are

0:26:560:27:00

not going well for your team, make

sure you are the focal point because

0:27:000:27:04

you need your players to turn

results round and the only way to

0:27:040:27:07

get results is if your players

perform.

Then you stood out in the

0:27:070:27:13

technical area and getting stick and

abuse from your own fans and you are

0:27:130:27:17

2-0 down. Then you are wanting, you

are trying to concentrate on what is

0:27:170:27:24

in front of you and maybe make

changes.

I don't listen to anybody.

0:27:240:27:30

Visually, I am the focal point. Some

managers, a goal goes against them

0:27:300:27:34

and they go further back in the

dugout, you want to shield yourself.

0:27:340:27:39

You have got to be the shield for

the players. Go even further out.

0:27:390:27:45

Invariably, I don't listen to the

supporters.

As a player, you want to

0:27:450:27:49

play for a manager that is

protecting you. You never heard so

0:27:490:27:54

Alex Ferguson having a go at his

players publicly. You do not hear

0:27:540:27:58

Wenger. In 21 years, I never

remember the Crewe on having a go at

0:27:580:28:03

his players, so you give extra for

those type of managers.

You mean in

0:28:030:28:10

private and public?

Particularly in

public because it becomes an us and

0:28:100:28:13

then situation and you need to be

together and a manager has to take

0:28:130:28:17

that responsibility, and went

manager steps forward to do that,

0:28:170:28:19

you try that bit harder for that

manager.

But if you go back to Andy

0:28:190:28:23

saying he is not sleeping, if you

are in private and away from the

0:28:230:28:28

public criticism, do you sit with a

Cup of tea and wonder what you are

0:28:280:28:35

doing?

No, I have got belief in the

players I signed because since I

0:28:350:28:39

have been there, I have got one

player from the old regime, but the

0:28:390:28:44

players I brought in at Carlisle, I

have put them in and for a reason.

0:28:440:28:49

Sleepless nights when you get

beaten, the worst time is the drive

0:28:490:28:53

home after the game. I live in

Sheffield so the drive back from

0:28:530:28:56

Carlisle, I relive all the way, so I

get three hours to get that out of

0:28:560:29:02

my system and I going and I don't

speak to the kids or the girlfriend

0:29:020:29:07

and it is one of those. It doesn't

come out until I am back in training

0:29:070:29:12

on Monday and then I let the result

go. Does it affect you? Yes, of

0:29:120:29:17

does. I needed to change my own

personal balance. I needed a level

0:29:170:29:23

of consistency as an individual

because I had it as an assistant

0:29:230:29:29

manager and I went back to QPR with

migratory and I wanted to go again

0:29:290:29:33

and be a manager and work on my own.

And to do that, I knew that I needed

0:29:330:29:38

to be different so I gave up

drinking and I have a level of

0:29:380:29:42

consistency about me and it has

helped me as an individual to deal

0:29:420:29:46

so I don't get too high if we win

again. I don't get as low as I did

0:29:460:29:50

when I had had a drink before.

If

you look at what they are doing in

0:29:500:29:54

the Premier League and I have spoken

to other managers about this, if you

0:29:540:29:58

are right at the top in the Premier

League, especially with European

0:29:580:30:02

competitions, you could do six press

conferences a week at least.

0:30:020:30:05

Probably more talking to the media

post match and pre-match.

These

0:30:050:30:10

young managers, young and

impressionable young men, they need

0:30:100:30:16

to be stable. He has to live his

life as he expects the players to

0:30:160:30:20

lead Bears and why not? That is

always what Wenger taught me the

0:30:200:30:25

most and I still stick to things in

my life taught to me by him because

0:30:250:30:29

he has created that habit and

behaviour with people because he

0:30:290:30:33

does it from a stable base and it

sounds like he is doing the same at

0:30:330:30:37

Carlisle. They respect you more for

that. If you are not stable, you are

0:30:370:30:41

erratic with your decision making

and what you say and not consistent

0:30:410:30:44

in your behaviour and it is very

difficult to play-by-play who is not

0:30:440:30:48

consistent and rants and raves and

he is calm the next day.

0:30:480:30:54

But when everybody wants a piece of

you, 17, 18 hours a day!

I must say

0:30:540:31:00

I enjoyed the press Conference we

have at Carlisle. It's not the

0:31:000:31:06

Premier League, but I've never

refused the press. We'd been on some

0:31:060:31:11

bad runs when you're thinking, I

don't want to do them. The press

0:31:110:31:15

officer will drag me out of the

office and say it has to be done. I

0:31:150:31:20

get on well with my local press,

Mike Sherman hates them! -- my

0:31:200:31:27

chairman hate them! But I've got a

duty to the team and the

0:31:270:31:32

supporters...

I've got a good friend

a Carlisle fan who are bullied you

0:31:320:31:36

didn't beat Wycombe Wanderers! --

who can't believe.

We were cruising

0:31:360:31:46

and the next thing we got beat 4-3.

Do you do the press straight after?

0:31:460:31:52

Straight after, five minutes later

do UCD press? That is when we like

0:31:520:31:59

to see managers. There was this

thing about ten years ago that

0:31:590:32:05

managers would have an hour to cool

off. By then they were all sensible!

0:32:050:32:10

You want them coming in and you want

the emotions.

I'm slightly lucky

0:32:100:32:15

because of the location. The local

paper and radio are Carlisle fans as

0:32:150:32:21

well. But they have a job to do as

well. In your mind you're thinking

0:32:210:32:30

you're flying high and I can say

this and that and it all changes in

0:32:300:32:37

two minutes. Ten minutes later I

have to speak to the press. And they

0:32:370:32:43

open with, what happened there?

Celtic have equalised at Ibrox on

0:32:430:32:51

the stroke of half-time through

Mousa Dembele. Let's talk about

0:32:510:32:58

Manchester United against Liverpool

at Old Trafford yesterday. Jose

0:32:580:33:01

Mourinho said afterwards after the

two goals from Marcus Rashford, he

0:33:010:33:07

said he spoke with Gareth Southgate,

he said it does not matter if he

0:33:070:33:11

plays or not, he trusts the kid and

the kid goes to the World Cup so he

0:33:110:33:15

didn't need to impress. Gareth

Southgate was at Old Trafford

0:33:150:33:20

yesterday. Was Rashford the story?

One of them. And he was the story

0:33:200:33:26

when we picked up the team sheet. No

matter what Gareth has said to Jose,

0:33:260:33:33

he had not started since Boxing Day.

And a variety of reasons he is the

0:33:330:33:39

story come including this idea that

when Jose came, how would the

0:33:390:33:44

younger players develop? Does he

trust them? The kids who have come

0:33:440:33:49

through the Academy? We've been

looking at it, he bought Sanchez,

0:33:490:33:56

Rashford has played plenty of

football this season, and you get

0:33:560:33:59

the team sheet and he is playing and

he does what he does. From an

0:33:590:34:02

England point of view, I think it's

right, he was always going to go.

0:34:020:34:08

Mainly because he has the pace as a

surprise element and Gareth

0:34:080:34:13

Southgate isn't blessed with a whole

lot of options up front when you've

0:34:130:34:16

ticked off Harry Kane and Jamie

Vardy. The rest is much as we will

0:34:160:34:23

see when the squad is announced on

Thursday for the friendlies against

0:34:230:34:26

Holland and Italy. On a lot of

levels it was the story. And from a

0:34:260:34:33

united point of view, can he get him

in to start more often?

I think what

0:34:330:34:39

he did do yesterday underlined how

good he is. He has been out for a

0:34:390:34:44

long time. He is a special talent,

no doubt, and I like it that

0:34:440:34:48

Southgate has said he will play

because he has too. We assume Kane

0:34:480:34:53

down the middle, Sterling on the

right and Rashford on the left, that

0:34:530:34:58

is an effective front three. I think

he is well balanced and looked after

0:34:580:35:03

in the club and has not lost any of

his confidence. Maybe he was trying

0:35:030:35:08

a bit too hard, just majority, there

seem to be more composure yesterday,

0:35:080:35:14

the finishes were outstanding. He

has to play now. Martial injured and

0:35:140:35:21

Sanchez loss of form is the only

reason he played.

He also has to get

0:35:210:35:25

used to the fact that in some games,

like yesterday, it sounds strange,

0:35:250:35:30

but apart from the two goals he was

playing as a second left-back a lot

0:35:300:35:34

of the time, covering the runs at

Alexander-Arnold rather than the

0:35:340:35:38

other way round. He scored from

those two, what United saw as the

0:35:380:35:46

weakness, the flick on and that

danger but apart from that, he will

0:35:460:35:50

have to have a lot of defensive

discipline under any Jose Mourinho

0:35:500:35:54

team.

But he is still learning and

lung and developing -- the young and

0:35:540:36:00

developing.

Young players come in

and out of possession, you get the

0:36:000:36:05

flair players and matchwinners, out

possession you have a job,

0:36:050:36:10

especially at Man United with Jose

Mourinho. It is having that

0:36:100:36:14

understanding and mentality and

maturity to do it naturally as well

0:36:140:36:16

and it does not come naturally to

young players, chasing people back.

0:36:160:36:20

They always want to go that way. You

have to be in position.

And we can't

0:36:200:36:27

say he is going to be tired, we want

people who are fresh in the team. He

0:36:270:36:31

has been well looked after. Martial

has been used. But he is a huge

0:36:310:36:39

talent. You can see them coming

along very rarely come at the top

0:36:390:36:42

players, and I think he's in that

category.

This is a leading question

0:36:420:36:46

because it is obviously in the

discussion of Manchester United and

0:36:460:36:49

Liverpool but if you pick an England

left-back at the moment who is it?

0:36:490:36:54

Good question, I would always go for

Rose because I think Pochettino has

0:36:540:36:59

decided this season that he is the

one who stepped out of line and does

0:36:590:37:02

not want to sort out his contract.

Like Kyle Walker last year. It is

0:37:020:37:08

not his ability, he should be

playing, and Pochettino has that his

0:37:080:37:12

nose off to spite his face.

He has

got Ben Davies as well.

I think

0:37:120:37:18

small mistakes.

0:37:180:37:23

small mistakes. I think on that side

there are issues but that is the

0:37:230:37:29

decision for the manager. I commend

him for that because he wants the

0:37:290:37:33

loyalty and the Spurs players to

stick together and anybody who shows

0:37:330:37:36

signs of going is not going to play

and that is what has happened to

0:37:360:37:39

Danny Rose.

0:37:390:37:45

Danny Rose. But yesterday Ashley

Young played exceptionally well. It

0:37:450:37:49

is interesting how a player so old

can go to full-back and do it so

0:37:490:37:53

well. Salah was in his pocket.

Sometimes it is easier to keep

0:37:530:37:59

playing in front of you will stop he

did not look out of place.

What is

0:37:590:38:04

remarkable about Ashley Young,

considering he's a converted

0:38:040:38:09

full-back and not a natural, out of

all of them he's the best defender.

0:38:090:38:13

Out of all of the contenders?

Danny

Rose, Ryan Bertrand, Ashley Young, I

0:38:130:38:20

think he is the most accomplished

defender yet what we would call the

0:38:200:38:25

least natural full-back. The one I

would start is the best defender.

0:38:250:38:31

England have been undone so many

times by taking full-backs who can

0:38:310:38:35

attack and that has become the

modern vogue. I want the best

0:38:350:38:41

defender, who is going to see that

somebody is in trouble. Remember the

0:38:410:38:44

goal against Italy, it was going to

go over the head of Cahill and the

0:38:440:38:49

full-back can see it and is not

covering. I want the equivalent of

0:38:490:38:55

Ashley Cole whose first priority is

to cover his centre-backs, track the

0:38:550:38:58

runs like Dybala for Juventus, the

best defender for a change, not the

0:38:580:39:05

one who can run at Kyle Walker speed

and about 60 yards in 60 seconds --

0:39:050:39:11

in six seconds and cross it.

We're

waiting to see what system he will

0:39:110:39:15

play, if he plays three at the back

or five and who are the central

0:39:150:39:20

defenders. What has happened to

them? Harry Maguire looks the best

0:39:200:39:24

and was not even playing for England

this time last year. Cahill not

0:39:240:39:30

playing, Stones...

0:39:300:39:36

playing, Stones...

Maguire and

Tarkowski are the ones playing

0:39:360:39:39

readily and well.

I've got to say, I

saw him at Sheffield United, if

0:39:390:39:46

someone said he was an England

content and international, at the

0:39:460:39:50

time I would have disagreed. I

thought he lacked pace and mobility.

0:39:500:39:53

Can handle the ball and step in. I

was worried he could never catch up

0:39:530:40:00

play but here's a footballing brain.

So do you think he is reading the

0:40:000:40:05

game better than he was when you had

him at Sheffield United?

I never had

0:40:050:40:09

Harry, but is reading is excellent,

he does not get caught out and does

0:40:090:40:14

not get involved in races. Going

back to my era people used to say

0:40:140:40:20

that Steve Bruce lacked pace but he

never got involved in races.

Never

0:40:200:40:25

got an England cap.

You have written

today about the problems with the

0:40:250:40:30

England defence.

With John Stones in

particular. This shows how

0:40:300:40:36

international football can change

but three or four months ago at the

0:40:360:40:40

last England get-together John

Stones came into one of the press

0:40:400:40:43

conferences and we thought he would

be named England captain but he

0:40:430:40:45

wasn't at it happened. Within the

camp it was clear that Southgate

0:40:450:40:52

regards him at the feud of his

central defence.

Does it matter he's

0:40:520:40:55

not playing readily?

If it does.

Because in his case he has to be a

0:40:550:41:05

confidence player -- yes, it does.

Did he look confident against Basel

0:41:050:41:10

the other night? Against Wigan when

he played?

We are saying City are

0:41:100:41:15

one of the best teams we have seen,

and as with Rashford it is a

0:41:150:41:23

difficult situation. Can we just

discovered people because they're

0:41:230:41:25

not playing? In an ideal situation

you want him to be playing.

But will

0:41:250:41:31

he be worried that he can't get

ahead of, with respect, Otamendi,

0:41:310:41:38

Laporte and Kompany? We are saying

he is one of the best centre halves

0:41:380:41:41

in the world.

He clearly isn't

because he is behind. He is fourth,

0:41:410:41:46

fifth in line at his own club. There

is the goalkeeping situation, a

0:41:460:41:52

whole catalogue of problems for

Gareth Southgate to work through.

0:41:520:41:55

The fund three is pretty simple but

the back of the team is a problem --

0:41:550:42:00

at the front three.

I want to end

with Jan Vertonghen who is in a lot

0:42:000:42:05

of the papers, Spurs against

Bournemouth later this afternoon, he

0:42:050:42:09

talks in his interview about how he

think it is more important, trophies

0:42:090:42:18

are more special if you grow as a

team together and eventually win one

0:42:180:42:22

rather than going and joining a club

and immediately winning a trophy.

0:42:220:42:25

Does it make sense?

It makes sense

from a player 's point of view. The

0:42:250:42:31

unity within a changing room, when

you get the dynamics, the

0:42:310:42:35

characters, and that bond, there is

nothing better than being successful

0:42:350:42:38

and winning a trophy rather than

being a team that goes out and buys

0:42:380:42:42

marquee signings to win them.

It

means a whole lot more, there is no

0:42:420:42:48

doubt...

To win a trophy with your

mates.

I found myself in the

0:42:480:42:55

situation, 98 and 99, Manchester

United winning everything and you go

0:42:550:42:58

barren years, losing the cup final

to Liverpool, and in 2002 you win

0:42:580:43:04

again and I could tell you now it

tastes really good. You look around

0:43:040:43:08

the group and you think, we did that

together, fellas. You didn't just

0:43:080:43:13

turn up midway through. He's right,

they should stick together, those

0:43:130:43:17

Tottenham players, and I feel is

quite a special group and I feel

0:43:170:43:20

they're unlucky. The minute things

cost you at the top level. The

0:43:200:43:27

Champions League, you have to learn

the hard way.

Bournemouth against

0:43:270:43:31

Spurs is 4pm, Arsenal against

Watford before that, both games on

0:43:310:43:35

five Live this afternoon. Nathan

says, insightful stuff from Keith

0:43:350:43:43

Curle, the application and

professionalism he has shown at

0:43:430:43:44

Carlisle has been exceptional.

Apologies to Southampton fans, we

0:43:440:43:49

have not had time to talk about your

club. I would imagine that is a

0:43:490:43:54

relief at the moment! Thank you, see

you on Match of the Day to later.

0:43:540:43:58

Mark Chapman and guests analyse Saturday's Premier League matches and look ahead to Sunday's action, featuring Arsenal against Watford and Tottenham's trip to Bournemouth.