24/11/2013 MOTD2 Extra

Hello, welcome to Match Of The Day 2 Extra, we are live on BBC One, BBC

you 5 live and the BBC sport website. Coming up, we will preview

today's games, Manchester City host Spurs, Manchester United look to

continue their recovery at Cardiff, and we look back at yesterday's

Akron. A feisty and phonetic Merseyside derby, red cards and

tackles in the spotlight. Crystal Palace grabbed the win at Kyle and

Artur Boruc did his best Johan Cruyff impression, although not

particularly well -- grab the win at Hull. With me to discuss the

football, Peter Schmeichel, Alan Green and the Mirror's cheese police

later -- chief sports writer, Oliver Holt. You can get in touch with us

and we will put your points of view to the boys as we go through the

afternoon. What struck you yesterday from all of the football? Apart from

a sensational Merseyside derby, I am afraid, I wish it wasn't so,

referees decisions. I'm thinking of two incidents, a red card that

should not have been, and a red card that should have been but wasn't.

Listeners to 5 live will probably think I love having a pop at

referees but I hate it, I wish I didn't have to. They are such

integral figures in the game, you have so many camera angles now,

everything is exposed to very quickly after an incident, and

unfortunately they get the headlines. What about you, Oliver?

Well, the same thing, sadly. I know we will talk about it more. I think

we took too much about referees. I think there is something wrong in

our game because we talk every week about refereeing decisions. We have

X referees who have columns in newspapers. Who write books about

begging for a shirt from Zinedine Zidane. I think there is something

wrong with the profiles of referees. I think they do a great job by and

large but I think they do a great job. Alan mentioned the camera

angles, where we have got it askew is that we can see so much and they

can't. Somehow we need to redress that balance.

Are we unique in this country in focusing so much on referees? Do you

do the same thing in Denmark? It is the same thing all over. In the

Champions League you have five referees. I'm still mystified what

the two behind the goals are doing. It has been addressed at some level.

It is weird that it hasn't changed. You still get these decisions are

not either it is a penalty or not. Everyone from all the angles we

have, we can see it is a penalty or not, they can't. I am not sure what

kind of help you can give. I think it is more you need to educate them

better, they need to understand that they are not the game. Sometimes I

feel they feel they are the game. They are there to support the game.

I see a lot of Championship football duty following my son for

Leicester, and I see some of the referees there -- due to following.

I see straightaway that this referee will ruin the game because he is

therefore the crowd, housing, making silly decisions. I think the Premier

League are aware of that and they want to move away from that. This

country has the best referee that has been around for years, he was

refereeing the Sweden against Portugal game, Howard Webb. An

unbelievable performance. You have got someone like that, you put him

in front of everybody, you make him tell everybody how to referee. We

will be back on referees a little bit later during much of the day to

extra. Let's look at the first game this afternoon. Manchester City at

home to Spurs. -- during Match Of The Day 2 Extra.

It is a very difficult game for us, we're going to play against a very

good team, they have a good position in the table and good players.

They're attacking force is to Mendez, they have been suffering

problems at the back but they are still a well-organised side -- the

attacking force instrument. It is commended. -- Matt

they have been at the top of the table. They have very good players,

sometimes it can happen that you don't score many goals but they are

a very strong team. I'm very happy, bearing in mind the amount of wins

that we have compared two drawers or defeats. The only situation we have

different from last season is incredibly, there are eight teams

very near each other. Probably last season, although we have more points

this season, we never dropped that low in the league table because we

had some distance of comfort to the chasing pack. This season is a

little bit different. From fourth or third, you can be seventh or eighth

in the week after if the results at the weekend don't go towards your

expectations. We have ninth placed Manchester City hosting seventh

placed Spurs. Both sides have questions to answer over recent

form. Let's go to Guy Mowbray who is doing this game for Match Of The Day

2 at the Etihad this afternoon. You have the side who are good at home

at home, and the side who are better away, away. Yes, like so many games

we have seen this season. Virtually impossible to call. Manchester City

score goals for fun at home. I think there is a bit of doubt as to

whether they can repeat the seven against Norwich and the five against

CSKA Moscow. They are confident and Spurs, playing better football. Like

so many games we have seen this season, virtually impossible to

call. I have just seen Andre Villas-Boas, Felix in Tripoli he

looks in chipper mood. Guy Mowbray is trying to keep his earpiece in,

having problems hearing us, or doing his best David Coleman impression!

Spurs have a problem scoring goals and all sorts of rumours that

Emmanuel Adebayor might be in line to play, would you find that

strange? It would come from left field. He has not been involved at

all. When you think about all the games that Spurs have played in the

Europa League as well come to suddenly come back in, I would find

it odd, especially when they have Jermain Defoe sitting on the bench.

I find it strange, the anomaly between league and cup. Spurs have

scored nine in 11 in the Premier League, yet in cup games they have

scored 23 in eight. I know the calibre of the opposition is

different, but it is a huge difference. It is something Andre

Villas-Boas has got to put right. The other question is, who will they

be firing at in the Manchester City goal? There are rumours that Joe

Hart will play but the understanding I have is that Manuel Pellegrini

will stick with Costel Pantilimon for this one at least. We will let

you prepare for the game. Whenever you are on, Peter, I always seem to

ask you about Joe Hart. Would you start with him? I would come I would

play him in every game. I am on record saying I am mystified he is

even being questioned. Him playing for Manchester City and England. I

think for the first time in many years, England have a goalkeeper

that is of that quality committee can start -- you can start building

a team around him. I am even mystified by some of the mistakes he

has been accused of making. Here you have somebody who is very special,

he came into the team very young, he proved himself and he has that kind

of level. He performs at least to the way I see, at a high level every

game. For what ever reason, Manchester City started to have

problems at the back, Vincent Kompany is not playing, I think they

are suffering from that, and they are conceding goals. The first thing

that happens is you start blaming the goalkeeper and etiquette has

been very unfair. He has made some very high-profile mistakes. I think

he has, for club and country. I was on Match Of The Day when he conceded

a goal from four yards and it dips a bit in front of him, and he is being

blamed. I was at Chelsea Rigby went to me, he made the mistake, -- at

Chelsea recently. Even when he was in the England team, he made some

outstanding saves committee kept the scoreline down for England. However

-- outstanding saves, he kept the scoreline down. You have to

understand you are dealing with a young man, someone who has done well

for a long time. All of a sudden, everything he does is being

questioned. It is bound to make anyone nervous. So that period of

time from when people start to question him, just have a look at

what happened to Robert Greene in the World Cup. Yes, he made a

mistake. Did he deserve the treatment he got? Did he deserve to

get dropped? I thought he was the best goalkeeper running into the

tournament. This is the same thing that is bound to happen to Joe Hart

if the mood around him doesn't change, and then you have nobody in

goal. I agree with you. It is unfair to say you have nobody but I feel

that Joe Hart is special. He was worth protecting. It is worth giving

him a bit of understanding. I think Roy Hodgson has done that. Manuel

Pellegrini has not. As far as Spurs are concerned, we see them most

Sundays on Match Of The Day 2, such is the nature of the fixture list.

Several times this season we have emphasised how many chances they

have created. Tim Krul two weeks ago made more saves in a game than any

other keeper in the Premier League since the statistics started.

Creating the chances is not a problem for Spurs. It is not, but

scoring is, as has been pointed out. If you look down the table, not many

teams score less than that. You have to go down to Palace and Sunderland.

It is trite to say it but I think we do come back a bit to Gareth Bale.

We quickly forget... Trevor asks, do you think Spurs are as good as last

season? At the moment, not, because there are still trying to adapt to

the new signings and they will have some time of adaptation. They are

not doing too badly, they could go forth today. Gareth Bale, we forget

how many times last season, matches that were heading for stalemate is,

he scored late winners, fantastic winners out of nothing. There was a

big debate when Spurs were going to spell him, should they try to hang

on to him, is it a no-brainer that if Real Madrid for ?86 million, they

have to sell? Probably they did have to sell in the end, but they are

missing him. I think that is obvious. Big was played for Soldado

but you actually want somebody like Defoe who will convert the chances.

I don't think he is being given a good time by Villas-Boas, their

respective nation he might be available. I think it is difficult

to fit Defoe into the way he wants to play. With Defoe, you need to

have space for him to run into and use his quickness. I don't think the

way that Villas-Boas wants to play, he wants to create chances, I don't

think it is developers strength. -- I don't think it is Defoe's

strength. Given that Andre Villas-Boas likes to throw players

in against former clubs, do you start Adebayor? I can see the

benefits of it. I think it would be counterintuitive in many ways. I can

see that for shock value, on a one-off basis, I can see the value.

Is that a yes? Yes. Alan Green? No. I would play him. He would be very

hungry. Against Newcastle, he would have created one or two. He can

score goals. He might be out of favour on so many other points but I

would play him as well. It would help the atmosphere. It would crank

it up. There are pictures of Kevin Mirallas's challenge on Luis Suarez

in all of the back pages. It is on the Telegraph, on the Times, on the

back of the Sunday Mirror. We will talk about the Merseyside derby

after reaction from yesterday. To get ahead of a scoreline and get so

close for the final whistle is disappointing, not to get the

reward. It is a difficult team to play at

home. We are disappointed not to win the game. I can understand why

Liverpool could ask for a red card. I do not think it was a red card

incident. It was trying to win the ball. He closed his eyes, looked

away and got the free kick awarded. In my eyes it was the right thing to

do. I thought Kevin Mirallas was so lucky to be on the field. It was

uproar challenge. -- a poor challenge. He is jumping in. Luis

Suarez looks like he is going to get a touch on it. But the ball was

nowhere near his knee and that is a reckless challenge.

The challenge was a disgrace, he should have walked a? But Luis

Suarez went unfinished -- unpolished last year. Brendan Rodgers saying

that if it had been the other way round, he would have been off.

Correct. It was absurd for Roberto Martinez to defend that challenge

and suggest it was not a red card incident. I had the benefit of

watching at home so I was able to see all the angles. I was pretty

sure that the referee had a clear view of the incident. There was also

a long delay while people came onto the pitch. And he was getting

something in his ear, clearly. How did he not see that as a clear red

card? It is absurd. What I wonder, why has he given a yellow card, what

is the yellow card for? That is a blatant red card. We speak about the

influence that a referee has on the game. He is off the pitch. He's not

looking to assist. That could have changed the outcome of the game.

Referees make mistakes. 99% of people accept that they are honest

mistakes. But they are mistakes. So what do we do? For a long time I

have believed that they need more help. But the game moves so slowly

and there is so much opposition to video technology. I think they need

more help. If he was to see that challenge again with the benefit of

the replays, he would surely send off Kevin Mirallas. I am not going

to hold my breath about this. But I think it is crazy. These kind of

issues do shape matches. And shape careers. You're not supposed to take

help from the fourth official, who cannot see a monitor. But in the

World Cup final the referee did not see Synod in sedan doing the

head-butt. -- Zidane. But he was told that it happened. Phil Dowd

should have had instruction yesterday. If he really did not see

that, he had plenty of time to make the correct decision which would

have been to send off Kevin Mirallas. It is starting to happen

by stealth. There are monitors by the dugout and the fourth official.

The ridiculous thing is that we ought to be talking about what was a

fantastic game of football that finished 3-all and had everything

bar you could argue, some decent defending. I thought the defending

was pretty crass! You got away with that! Talk about Johnson playing for

England. I thought Lukaku was partly in full. -- in the wrong. Pienaar

comes away from the wall. Howard must have seen that. I find this

funny. Pienaar was on the outside, his job if he puts it that way

around, is to try to stop it. But that is a quality free kick. Have a

look at the wall again. You have those five guys in the wall. Pienaar

to the left. He is there to stop it. But with Swarez, it is a quality

kick. They are doing all they can. He finds that little gap. Sometimes

you just have to hold up your hands and say, that was quality. He might

have put it a bit more to the left. But you're always going to be

angry! Sometimes there are free kicks you just cannot do anything

about. Looking at the Sunday Mirror this morning, Wes Brown of Mac red

card described as the worst decision ever. A quote, I think, from Gus

Poyet. Let us hear from him now. Maybe I will put it into

consideration and try to give something to the referee, some

credit. I do not think there was any explanation, any sentence. Not in

control of his body? No. Contact! No. The referee took four seconds.

The fourth official does not talk. Please explain me. Difficult to

accept. Can you find any explanation for that red card? I thought the

failure to send off Kevin Mirallas was the worst decision of the day.

The only sort of hint of an explanation I can find for the Wes

Brown decision, I wonder if he was slightly out of control. A lot of

people have pointed out that just getting the ball is not enough.

Having said all that, I did not think it was a red card. I just

thought it was an aggressive, good, solid tackle. Football has been

built on this. When I came into the game those were the kind of tackles

the people celebrated. But football has changed so much. Not this tackle

in particular, but referees I think are so sensitive about tackles that

are out of control. This one is an over reaction. I disagree that he

was out of control. I thought it was a perfectly OK, well timed tackle.

The guy goes down about six seconds later. The referee has no reaction

whatsoever for four seconds. You look at a referee and you see his

reaction, to blow the whistle, or whatever. No reaction. I do not know

about the fourth official. I think this was unbelievable. I find it the

worst decision, worse than the other one. I am just trying to find an

explanation for what was going on in his head. All I can think of is the

out of is the out-of-control explanation. Not saying he was out

of control, but if they are going to look for a reason, they might come

back with that. When he watches it back, in order to keep any kind of

good reputation for the referees, he has to reverse that. Can I suggest

that referees should not be untouchable. Make the decisions and

then stand away from them. I would like to see those who are capable of

standing in front of the camera, doing it. The other week at Stamford

Bridge, there was a highly questionable penalty in favour of

Chelsea. If he had come on afterwards and said from my angle, I

thought there was sufficient contact, we can disagree with him.

But I doubt if anyone would seriously argue against the referee.

I agree, if you let them watch it back and then put them in front of

the camera. There is also a bit of justice. If a referee makes such a

bad decision that everyone else with see it was a sending off, they

should get suspended. Phillips says ever red card against rescinded

should a referee who gave it be banned? I think they need to be

responsible for what they do. If they make a decision that has an

impact on the game that was wrong, they should not be in the mix of it

next week. That quite often happen. They are quite often demoted. That

is even worse. The worst thing in Championship football games is when

the Premiership referee comes down. Because he feels relegated. He

should not even be on the pitch. I felt sorry for Mike Riley this week.

He has run Steve Clarke and said, we got that wrong. That it was made

public is inexcusable. If we just made it public generally, that

referees stood up and were accountable after such a

controversial incident, then I do feel... We allow them to be human. I

am all for accountability. I agree, if we start making them bigger

personalities then they become the story. We need to depersonalise the

whole referee issue. We're not there to watch the referee. Mark Halsey

was one of the commentary team. If something happened in the game, you

could actually approach him. That kind of thing in the game is

important. It does not inflame a situation. Well we have had a tweet

to say, has Steve Clarke opened a can of worms by making a referee

apology public. What has happened, what we have had is a referee's

opinion made public. And then that has opened this can of worms. If

referees are to be put in front of cameras that means more of their

opinions are made public. You could say that would make it better but it

could also make it worse. I think it could make it worse. It's just

perpetuates this discussion. So I referee makes an explanation and

then people disagree with the explanation, it becomes more about

the referee. It might just make them think about what they do. For some

referees, you feel that they have that kind of persona that this is

about me. It is not about the game. A very prominent former referee

agreed with me privately that video technology should be explored

further, to help them make controversial decisions. They need

help. They are not allowed to say that publicly. He said the majority

of referees felt that way. Deal with it at the time, nip it in the bud.

In my experience I do not think that referees in the NFL are superstars

and topics of everyday conversation the way that referees are. I do not

think you could do it in full all. But in the NFL, the whole stadium

gets an explanation there and then. Phil Dowd yesterday, there was an

incident in the second half when he played a fantastic advantage from

which Everton nearly scored. Do you get out Phil Dowd to say, by the

way, that was great. It is the same thing, rarely do you see goalkeepers

on the back pages unless they have done something. They always pick on

the things that did not go right. Not picking on Artur Boruc, but what

do you make of what he did yesterday? Later on last night he

posted a picture of Johan Cruyff, and a picture of himself trying to

do whatever he was trying to do. A great sense of humour. I am not

sure, the Southampton fans appreciated it. Do you wholly blame

Artur Boruc? The way football is played today, managers want

goalkeepers to pass the ball, the play has to be built from the back.

Having a son playing as a goalkeeper in the Championship, I sometimes

think, why did he kicked the ball, but this is the way we play, this is

the way Denmark play, the way we played at Manchester United. The

rules about the backpass rule, some people won't remember this, but we

could actually picked the ball up and have it in our hands, we could

only take three steps. It was changed while I was playing. I

wasn't too bad with my feet. I would never attempt that. Lots of people

have said, have you ever tried to do that? No, my first priority is to

get it away from goal. If I didn't feel I could put it up the pitch, I

would put it into the stand. If you had tried that, would Alex Ferguson

have tried to put you into Row Z? Yes, for sure. That would not have

been the worst. I would have to deal with Steve Bruce and Gary Pallister

and Roy Keane and all of these guys. It is percentages. As a

goalkeeper, your first priority is one thing. To try to prevent goals

being scored. The second thing, can you keep the ball within the team?

Of course you are right, it appears a growing number of managers want

their goalkeepers to play like sweepers. Surely it is horses for

courses. Pepe Reina was very good at that. The Chilean goalkeeper,

fantastic at Wembley. Roy Hodgson praised the goalkeeper afterwards,

it was like watching Glenn Hoddle in goal. However, not all goalkeepers

can do that. I notice at Liverpool, Brendan Rodgers appears to think

that Mignolet can play the way that Pepe Reina did, and he can't do it.

He is just putting pressure on his goalkeeper, just clear the ball. If

Artur Boruc thinks he is Johan Cruyff, he is not. It is a great

sense of humour, to post that. I think in order to win any kind of

competition at a high level, the Premier League, La Liga, you need 11

footballers. You need to have that bit extra. You keep the ball,

controlled the ball, control the game. Goalkeepers are needed in

teams like Manchester United, Arsenal, Liverpool, they need to

beef up the players as well as goalkeepers -- the need to be

football players. They will pass the ball back and they will keep the

ball, rather than risking a pass into the corner or what ever we used

to do. With Mignolet, it will pose a bit of a problem if he doesn't

improve in that department. Because liveable's way of playing has been

built up over years. -- Liverpool's way of playing. With a goalkeeper

like Pepe Reina, they have got more and more used to it. I picked out a

few Pepe Reina moments last season where the ball has been passed back

in a situation when you would not have passed it back ten years ago.

And then eventually he turns the game and suddenly Liverpool have a

chance. Mignolet can't do that. No. Top clubs want the service from the

back, from the goalkeepers. But not all can do it. We saw an example

yesterday that did go wrong. And he is all over the back pages. We are

going to talk West Ham and Fulham with Peter Schmeichel and Alan Green

and Oliver Holt. But let's get the team news from the Etihad Stadium,

Manchester City against Spurs. Costel Pantilimon continues in

goal, Joe Hart is a substitute against a fifth consecutive City

match. Nastasic returns in defence. What catches the eye with Spurs is

that Andros Townsend is on the bench, as is Adebayor. Lennon and

Lamela will play wide, Kabul is in central defence.

Thank you, John will keep you up to date. And then for commentary of

Cardiff and -- against Manchester United. What about continuing with

Pantilimon? I have said this before, I disagree with it. Pellegrini is

doing it to protect himself, the goalkeeper has been criticised by

the media. In Spain, the first thing you have to do is protect yourself

as a manager. That is his instinct but in this country it is completely

different and I disagree with that decision. Someone should have

shouted to Artur Boruc what my uncle used to say to me, which is, where

is the car park... That is on a text. Michael asks, what is your

view on Martin Jol's position at Craven Cottage? We will hear from

the Fulham manager. The message is that even Swansea, a good team, they

took the three points. I think we were very unfortunate to get nothing

out of this game. If we would have won this game, we would have been

above them, so it is very less. As the arrival of Renae giving you more

time to turn this around? I don't know. If you are in the bottom five

or six, you always get pressure. Any manager of any team. Rene

Meulensteen has come in as head coach, does it help Martin Jol or

does it undermine him, is it a matter of time before he replaces

him? Your last interpretation is the one that I favour, that it is a

matter of time until Rene Meulensteen replaces him. I feel a

bit sorry for Martin Jol. If you look at the game yesterday, some of

the chances that Darren Bent missed, we talk about fine margins in sport.

There you have some examples. I suppose you come back to it, Martin

Jol is picking Darren Bent. I think Phil are struggling, I think their

fans, who watch them week in and week out feel their relegation

fodder -- I think for -- Fulham are struggling. We have spent a lot of

time talking about Fulham and Martin Jol, West Ham are 17th and we have

not really touched on Sam Allardyce this season. Isn't that the next

game, West Ham at home to Fulham? It is a game that I cannot see Fulham

winning. It is a game that Tannadice will be desperate for West Ham to

win. They are in the relegation zone -- a game that Sam Allardyce will be

desperate. I laughed when I saw the formation come up for West Ham. 4-2

-4. I thought, it is not that, it is actually 4-6. You can't think fit

six across the television graphic! Sam Allardyce pointed the errors of

his ways when he made's changes before half-time. Had he made them

at half-time, as I used to applaud Jose Mourinho for doing similar, OK.

I thought the laying of Collison and Joe Cole -- pulling off Collison and

joke was a bit saying, I am charge in here. -- and Joe call. I thought

it was wrong. If you get it wrong to the extent

that you need to make two changes before half-time, you have to have a

serious look at yourself. The manager brings the players in, if he

hasn't got strikers it is his responsibility. Of course you can

have four strikers and four strikers are injured, that is not the case

here. You know that strikers go through periods where they don't

score. West Ham have not scored in a lot of games. They have nine goals

in 12 games. We need to fit in Cardiff against Manchester United.

Commentary is on 5 live from 4:00pm. The first time they have met since

March 1975. You don't really want to be playing a team in a good run of

form but it eventually has to come to an end. That is what you look at.

The same question could be asked of me, we have not won in four, is it a

great time to play against them? We have a top team coming here, we know

the tough task but we also relishing it and realising they are coming to

our stadium, and we have been competitive in this league. I think

he has done a great job, not to in the season but in the past that

Clancy has been at. He has done a brilliant job at Cardiff -- in the

past at clubs he has been at. They should be thankful they have got

him. We have come up against Spurs, Manchester City, Chelsea, it is the

legal -- league we are in and it is something I relish. I want to test

myself against the best and that is what we're doing the moment.

Everybody knew it was going to be like this at the start, a change of

manager, it was always going to have problems no matter what. Winning

games or different personnel in the team. Overall the players have been

great, they have showed what they can do. Manchester United have

proved over the years they get better as things go on. They have

been pretty slow starters. My history at Everton was a slow

starter as well. Hopefully we begin to find our feet, getting a bit of

rhythm and will continue to improve. How big a test is this for

Manchester United without Michael Carrick? He is a big absentee. You

couple that with the fact that Fellaini hasn't remotely justified

the few that was paid for them, it is not his fault that money was

paid... United are slowly turning the corner. I am still not convinced

about their title contention -- credentials this season but they are

getting better. I am a big fan of David Moyes and I want to see him do

well. He merits having a job of that stature and it will come right for

him. It may be to slow this season for them to claim the title again.

They will win today. A win for United would take them for. A win

for Cardiff would take them into mid-table. Yes, I went to Cardiff

when they beat Manchester City earlier in the season. They are a

side, there is a good atmosphere there, a side capable of raising it

for the big occasions, as they did when Swansea played there. It will

be pulsating this afternoon. You can listen to it on BBC 5 live, a 4:00pm

kick off. You can watch that game and Manchester City against Spurs on

Match Of The Day 2 tonight, 10:25pm on BBC One. Thank you for joining me

and we will see you next week. Have a good afternoon.