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Yeah. No, I really like that. | 0:00:02 | 0:00:03 | |
Actor and presenter Amanda Holden is a well-known face on stage and TV, | 0:00:05 | 0:00:11 | |
most famous for her role as a judge on Britain's Got Talent. | 0:00:11 | 0:00:15 | |
She lives in West London with her husband, Chris, | 0:00:17 | 0:00:20 | |
and their two daughters, Hollie and Lexie. | 0:00:20 | 0:00:22 | |
But, growing up, her own family life wasn't so settled. | 0:00:24 | 0:00:28 | |
When I was, I think, four or five, my parents divorced. | 0:00:29 | 0:00:35 | |
My father was in the Navy, so I didn't see him, | 0:00:35 | 0:00:37 | |
and I lost contact with his side of the family. | 0:00:37 | 0:00:40 | |
The only thing I know about my paternal grandfather was that he | 0:00:42 | 0:00:48 | |
was a male nurse, which, in itself, was fairly unique. | 0:00:48 | 0:00:53 | |
That and the sad fact that he committed suicide. | 0:00:53 | 0:00:57 | |
I'd love to find out about the kind of man he was | 0:00:57 | 0:01:01 | |
before it all went so dark for him. | 0:01:01 | 0:01:04 | |
Amanda also wants to investigate a family rumour | 0:01:04 | 0:01:08 | |
-on her mother's side. -My middle name is Louise, | 0:01:08 | 0:01:12 | |
and my great-grandfather was called Louis. | 0:01:12 | 0:01:16 | |
And I think there were lots of Louis before that. | 0:01:16 | 0:01:18 | |
And my grandmother has always said, | 0:01:18 | 0:01:20 | |
"Oh, it's because we're French, dear. | 0:01:20 | 0:01:22 | |
"We're French." I would love it to be true. | 0:01:22 | 0:01:25 | |
My mum and stepfather came to live in Cornwall about 15 years ago, | 0:02:02 | 0:02:07 | |
and it's where all our ancestors are from. | 0:02:07 | 0:02:10 | |
But I think the thing that really interests me is this rumour | 0:02:10 | 0:02:15 | |
of a whole French side of the family. | 0:02:15 | 0:02:18 | |
I would love to find a French connection. | 0:02:18 | 0:02:22 | |
Amanda's mother, Judy, | 0:02:32 | 0:02:34 | |
has been doing some research into their family's history. | 0:02:34 | 0:02:39 | |
-Mum! -Hello. | 0:02:39 | 0:02:41 | |
I was standing by watching for that car. | 0:02:41 | 0:02:45 | |
Now, that is me as a French person. | 0:02:48 | 0:02:52 | |
That's right. Yeah. | 0:02:52 | 0:02:53 | |
-I was obsessed with dressing up as French... -I know you were. | 0:02:53 | 0:02:57 | |
But it's stereotypical French. | 0:02:57 | 0:02:59 | |
I don't think I've ever seen a person in a stripy T-shirt | 0:02:59 | 0:03:01 | |
-with onions around his neck. -And you won by winking at the judge. | 0:03:01 | 0:03:07 | |
Winking at the judge. | 0:03:07 | 0:03:08 | |
Which is a good tip for anybody that comes on Britain's Got Talent. | 0:03:08 | 0:03:11 | |
-And you've never looked back, have you? -No. | 0:03:11 | 0:03:13 | |
Amanda knows that the name Louis | 0:03:14 | 0:03:17 | |
crops up a lot in her mother's family. | 0:03:17 | 0:03:20 | |
So this Louis, who is my great-grandfather, | 0:03:20 | 0:03:23 | |
and your grandfather, that's Louis. | 0:03:23 | 0:03:26 | |
And that was Nanny's dad. | 0:03:26 | 0:03:28 | |
-Yeah. -And wasn't he a brilliant swimmer? | 0:03:28 | 0:03:30 | |
Oh, yes. He was. | 0:03:30 | 0:03:32 | |
Actually, I've got... | 0:03:32 | 0:03:34 | |
He won a trophy in 1913 for long distance swimming in Cornwall. | 0:03:34 | 0:03:41 | |
Here. It says... What does it say? Can you read it? | 0:03:41 | 0:03:44 | |
Yes. Let me just put it into the light. | 0:03:44 | 0:03:46 | |
"Long distance swimmer, championship." | 0:03:46 | 0:03:49 | |
-Oh, don't look in there. -Why? | 0:03:49 | 0:03:50 | |
-Because he's in there! -What?! | 0:03:50 | 0:03:52 | |
No, he is not! | 0:03:53 | 0:03:54 | |
You are sick. Oh, my God. | 0:03:56 | 0:03:59 | |
Judith! Let's put him over there. | 0:04:03 | 0:04:06 | |
Anyway. Sorry, may he rest in peace. | 0:04:06 | 0:04:08 | |
-So that's Nannie's dad. -Yeah. | 0:04:08 | 0:04:10 | |
He was a Louis. | 0:04:10 | 0:04:12 | |
-That's right, yeah. -And was his dad a Louis? | 0:04:12 | 0:04:14 | |
-So how many greats? -Hang on a minute. | 0:04:14 | 0:04:16 | |
One, two, three, four... | 0:04:16 | 0:04:21 | |
He was obviously the first Louis, | 0:04:21 | 0:04:23 | |
because if you look further, that was the one that was born | 0:04:23 | 0:04:27 | |
between Collin Thomas, who wasn't a Louis, | 0:04:27 | 0:04:29 | |
-because... -There was no Louis at that point. | 0:04:29 | 0:04:31 | |
-He married this woman called Radegonde. -A French woman. | 0:04:31 | 0:04:36 | |
-Which we think... -That's a funny name. -I know. | 0:04:36 | 0:04:38 | |
-Did you know what her surname was? -No. No. | 0:04:38 | 0:04:41 | |
-Radegonde? -There's a census here, actually. | 0:04:41 | 0:04:45 | |
Radegonde. | 0:04:45 | 0:04:47 | |
This is the 1841 census. | 0:04:47 | 0:04:50 | |
So, where are they? | 0:04:50 | 0:04:52 | |
Gosh, how can you see? It's such spidery writing. | 0:04:52 | 0:04:54 | |
OK, there. | 0:04:54 | 0:04:57 | |
With one L. It should be two, because I've found out since... | 0:04:57 | 0:05:01 | |
-Collin's got two Ls? -All the Collins were spelt with two Ls. | 0:05:01 | 0:05:05 | |
-OK. -Mm. So he was a shoemaker. | 0:05:05 | 0:05:09 | |
This makes sense to me, because I love shoes. | 0:05:09 | 0:05:12 | |
-It's genetic! -He could have made you them, couldn't he? | 0:05:12 | 0:05:15 | |
Loads of shoes! And he was 50 in 1841... Oh, I'm rubbish at maths. | 0:05:15 | 0:05:19 | |
So that's about 17... 90-ish. | 0:05:19 | 0:05:23 | |
-That he was born? -Yeah. | 0:05:23 | 0:05:25 | |
And on the next one, 1871. | 0:05:25 | 0:05:29 | |
If we look down... | 0:05:29 | 0:05:32 | |
-Oh, there we are. -Spelt right. -Spelt properly, yes. | 0:05:32 | 0:05:35 | |
Collin Thomas, Radegonde, wife. | 0:05:35 | 0:05:38 | |
But, look, you look across, where born... | 0:05:38 | 0:05:42 | |
-Bordeaux. -Oh, my God. | 0:05:44 | 0:05:46 | |
I knew we were French. | 0:05:46 | 0:05:48 | |
Yeah, I know. | 0:05:48 | 0:05:49 | |
And from a wine region! | 0:05:49 | 0:05:51 | |
And we made shoes! This is two really good mixes. | 0:05:51 | 0:05:55 | |
This is going very well. | 0:05:55 | 0:05:57 | |
It would be brilliant if you could find something out. | 0:05:57 | 0:05:59 | |
What, sort of... My family history is shoes and wine! | 0:05:59 | 0:06:02 | |
-Yes! -Brilliant! | 0:06:02 | 0:06:04 | |
Collin Thomas is Amanda's five times great-grandfather. | 0:06:11 | 0:06:14 | |
But how did her Cornish ancestor | 0:06:15 | 0:06:17 | |
come to marry a French woman from Bordeaux? | 0:06:17 | 0:06:20 | |
Hello. | 0:06:22 | 0:06:23 | |
So, I'm going to press the South West, which is Cornwall, | 0:06:26 | 0:06:29 | |
Collin - two Ls... | 0:06:31 | 0:06:33 | |
..Thomas. | 0:06:36 | 0:06:37 | |
-Search. -Amanda has decided to start | 0:06:40 | 0:06:43 | |
by looking at old local newspaper records. | 0:06:43 | 0:06:46 | |
OK, so that means... | 0:06:47 | 0:06:48 | |
OK. Two mentions here. | 0:06:50 | 0:06:52 | |
The general quarter... | 0:06:54 | 0:06:56 | |
Now there's Fs there. Are they Ss? | 0:06:58 | 0:07:00 | |
Sessions? | 0:07:00 | 0:07:02 | |
"The following prisoners were found guilty. | 0:07:02 | 0:07:07 | |
"Stephen somebody and Collin Thomas | 0:07:07 | 0:07:11 | |
"for felonies to be imprisoned for 12 months." | 0:07:11 | 0:07:14 | |
What felonies? | 0:07:16 | 0:07:17 | |
Collin Thomas! | 0:07:19 | 0:07:21 | |
Oh, my God, so he's gone to prison for 12 months. | 0:07:21 | 0:07:26 | |
My mum is not going to be happy with that. | 0:07:27 | 0:07:29 | |
My nan is going to be even less happy with that. | 0:07:29 | 0:07:31 | |
Exeter. | 0:07:33 | 0:07:34 | |
So that court is in Exeter. | 0:07:35 | 0:07:38 | |
So I need to go to Exeter. | 0:07:38 | 0:07:40 | |
Wow! | 0:07:40 | 0:07:41 | |
Amanda's come to Exeter Castle, | 0:07:49 | 0:07:51 | |
the site of the city's courtrooms in January 1806, | 0:07:51 | 0:07:55 | |
when Collin Thomas was put on trial. | 0:07:55 | 0:07:56 | |
She's meeting historian, Professor Peter King. | 0:07:57 | 0:08:00 | |
-Hi, Pete. I'm Amanda. Nice to meet you. -Hi. | 0:08:00 | 0:08:03 | |
So, Peter, yesterday I found out that my fifth great-grandfather, | 0:08:03 | 0:08:08 | |
Collin Thomas, went to prison. | 0:08:08 | 0:08:11 | |
Or something. It said 12 months for felonies. | 0:08:11 | 0:08:14 | |
And I have to say, I was completely shocked, but | 0:08:14 | 0:08:18 | |
my gut instinct, just straightaway, said no. | 0:08:18 | 0:08:21 | |
No way. He's an innocent man. | 0:08:21 | 0:08:22 | |
Innocent man. What has he done? | 0:08:22 | 0:08:24 | |
OK, was he innocent? That's the question. | 0:08:24 | 0:08:26 | |
-Yes! -We're going to have to go back a bit. | 0:08:26 | 0:08:28 | |
A felony means it's a crime that you get tried in a Jury Court for, | 0:08:28 | 0:08:32 | |
so it's a major crime. | 0:08:32 | 0:08:34 | |
To do that, I need to take you back to a couple of documents that were | 0:08:34 | 0:08:38 | |
several years before 1806 when he ended up in court. | 0:08:38 | 0:08:42 | |
So I'm going to start you off with a document here... | 0:08:42 | 0:08:45 | |
-Oh, my goodness. -..which is an apprentice indenture. | 0:08:45 | 0:08:48 | |
Have a look and you'll just... The story will begin to reveal itself. | 0:08:48 | 0:08:51 | |
-Between Deborah Thomas of the borough of Truro. -There's his mum. | 0:08:51 | 0:08:55 | |
So that's his mum, and Andrew Stevens of the borough of Truro, | 0:08:55 | 0:09:00 | |
aforesaid coordinator... | 0:09:00 | 0:09:03 | |
-Coordinator? -Cordwainer. | 0:09:03 | 0:09:04 | |
Cordwainer? What's a cordwainer? | 0:09:04 | 0:09:06 | |
Cordwainer is a shoemaker. | 0:09:06 | 0:09:09 | |
Yes! Collin was a shoemaker. | 0:09:09 | 0:09:11 | |
It's an apprenticeship for... | 0:09:11 | 0:09:13 | |
And if you read on a bit you'll find out how long he's committed to it. | 0:09:13 | 0:09:16 | |
OK. To serve from the date hereof for the term of seven years. Wow! | 0:09:16 | 0:09:22 | |
To be fully complete and ended. | 0:09:22 | 0:09:24 | |
So he can't go away at all without his master's permission. | 0:09:24 | 0:09:28 | |
Oh, this is interesting. | 0:09:28 | 0:09:29 | |
Look. Alehouses he shall not frequent. | 0:09:29 | 0:09:34 | |
-No. -He's not allowed in the pub, basically. -No pub. | 0:09:35 | 0:09:38 | |
And now I've completely lost my place. | 0:09:38 | 0:09:39 | |
-So his secrets keep... -And all lawful commands... | 0:09:39 | 0:09:42 | |
-In other words, he's under the hammer. -OK. -At all times. | 0:09:42 | 0:09:45 | |
At all times, readily do and obey. | 0:09:45 | 0:09:49 | |
-I mean, it sounds very strict. -You're bound in. | 0:09:49 | 0:09:52 | |
Your master feeds you and, effectively, | 0:09:52 | 0:09:55 | |
you are in his household, | 0:09:55 | 0:09:57 | |
and under his control for the rest of your seven years. | 0:09:57 | 0:10:00 | |
The master would be able to correct him, ie, punish him, | 0:10:00 | 0:10:03 | |
corporal punishment. | 0:10:03 | 0:10:05 | |
Occasionally there are cases in the 18th century when apprentices | 0:10:05 | 0:10:08 | |
are beaten to death. So let's just work out how old he is, | 0:10:08 | 0:10:12 | |
first of all, when he gets here. | 0:10:12 | 0:10:14 | |
Well, yesterday, on the 1841 census, he was 50. | 0:10:14 | 0:10:20 | |
So that means he was born in 1790. | 0:10:20 | 0:10:23 | |
-1790, yes. -So this is 1800. | 0:10:24 | 0:10:27 | |
-So he's ten. -He's only ten... | 0:10:27 | 0:10:28 | |
That's the same age as Lexie, my daughter. | 0:10:28 | 0:10:32 | |
I still feel like it's not going to... | 0:10:32 | 0:10:34 | |
-I think he's still a good person. -Right, OK. | 0:10:34 | 0:10:37 | |
I kind of have a suspicion now what I think... | 0:10:37 | 0:10:39 | |
Let's have a look and see what might have happened to him. | 0:10:39 | 0:10:42 | |
-What's that? -This is interesting, here. | 0:10:42 | 0:10:45 | |
This is the Royal Marine descriptive register | 0:10:45 | 0:10:48 | |
of people that they recruited. | 0:10:48 | 0:10:51 | |
Recruits like Collin were tempted into the Royal Marines | 0:10:51 | 0:10:54 | |
with the promise of the King's shilling, | 0:10:54 | 0:10:57 | |
a cash bounty which they received on joining up. | 0:10:57 | 0:11:00 | |
-There he is. -You've got him. | 0:11:02 | 0:11:04 | |
-Double L, Collin. -Yeah. | 0:11:04 | 0:11:06 | |
Collin Thomas, 20th of September, 1805. | 0:11:06 | 0:11:12 | |
OK, so he was 17. | 0:11:12 | 0:11:13 | |
Oh... No. | 0:11:13 | 0:11:14 | |
Hang on. In 1805... | 0:11:14 | 0:11:17 | |
-He's not even 16. -Oh, God. He was 15. | 0:11:18 | 0:11:20 | |
-He's 15. -He's 15, yeah. So he's saying he was 17. | 0:11:20 | 0:11:23 | |
The really important bit is this here. | 0:11:23 | 0:11:26 | |
-OK, D... -That means discharged. | 0:11:26 | 0:11:28 | |
Discharged... Claimed? | 0:11:28 | 0:11:31 | |
-Claimed an apprentice. -Yeah. | 0:11:31 | 0:11:34 | |
Claimed an apprentice. | 0:11:34 | 0:11:35 | |
So the master has come back. | 0:11:35 | 0:11:38 | |
Andrew Stevens? | 0:11:38 | 0:11:39 | |
Mm. Because the seven years are not yet up, and claimed him back. | 0:11:39 | 0:11:43 | |
So he's there a couple of months. | 0:11:43 | 0:11:45 | |
He gets a couple of months in the Marines. | 0:11:45 | 0:11:47 | |
So now we're going to have a look at the calendar of prisoners. | 0:11:47 | 0:11:51 | |
So this is the January session. | 0:11:51 | 0:11:54 | |
January 1806. | 0:11:54 | 0:11:55 | |
It was in the newspaper, yeah. | 0:11:55 | 0:11:57 | |
Now, Collin Thomas. | 0:11:57 | 0:11:59 | |
Oh, my gosh. It says aged 17. | 0:11:59 | 0:12:02 | |
-Which he isn't. -Which he's not. | 0:12:02 | 0:12:05 | |
-Mm. -Charged with unlawfully having knowingly... | 0:12:05 | 0:12:08 | |
By false pretences. | 0:12:08 | 0:12:09 | |
..obtained the sum of £11 and 11 shillings. | 0:12:09 | 0:12:14 | |
-11 guineas, in other words. -Yeah. -So this is... | 0:12:14 | 0:12:17 | |
-So he stole somebody's money? -His signing up money. | 0:12:17 | 0:12:19 | |
Oh, it's signing up money. | 0:12:19 | 0:12:21 | |
-Yep. -To the Marines? | 0:12:21 | 0:12:23 | |
Yep. And it's a lot of money. | 0:12:23 | 0:12:25 | |
It's the equivalent of 22 weeks of a labourer's wage. | 0:12:25 | 0:12:30 | |
In modern terms, at the very least, £5,000, £6,000, £7,000. | 0:12:30 | 0:12:34 | |
Oh, my gosh. | 0:12:34 | 0:12:35 | |
More than he'll ever have thought he'd ever have in his hand before. | 0:12:35 | 0:12:38 | |
-In his life, probably. -At the age of 15. -Yes. | 0:12:38 | 0:12:40 | |
So that's why he ended up here. | 0:12:40 | 0:12:43 | |
And he would have gone down to the cells first of all, | 0:12:43 | 0:12:46 | |
awaiting his chance to come up in court and defend himself. | 0:12:46 | 0:12:49 | |
So do the cells still exist? | 0:12:49 | 0:12:51 | |
There are some of them there, yeah. | 0:12:51 | 0:12:53 | |
Scary. | 0:12:54 | 0:12:55 | |
So these are the cells, which are now a men's toilets. | 0:12:59 | 0:13:04 | |
Which is grim, anyway. | 0:13:04 | 0:13:06 | |
I mean, I can't help but think... I mean, he was only 15. | 0:13:06 | 0:13:13 | |
This has now, obviously, got electricity, | 0:13:13 | 0:13:16 | |
so it must have been virtually dark. | 0:13:16 | 0:13:18 | |
You wouldn't be able to see anything down here, I wouldn't have thought. | 0:13:18 | 0:13:22 | |
The cells where Collin was held as he awaited trial were still in use | 0:13:22 | 0:13:27 | |
until 2003, when the Crown Court moved. | 0:13:27 | 0:13:29 | |
So depressing. | 0:13:29 | 0:13:31 | |
And spooky. It feels like I can feel something down here. | 0:13:32 | 0:13:36 | |
It's freezing cold. | 0:13:36 | 0:13:37 | |
Crime and punishment expert, Professor Barry Godfrey, | 0:13:44 | 0:13:47 | |
-is waiting for Amanda. -Nice to meet you. | 0:13:47 | 0:13:50 | |
Welcome to the Exeter courtroom. An amazing place, isn't it? | 0:13:50 | 0:13:52 | |
Gosh, yeah. It's massive. | 0:13:52 | 0:13:54 | |
That's where the judges would have sat, | 0:13:54 | 0:13:57 | |
resplendent in their scarlet robes. | 0:13:57 | 0:13:59 | |
-Literally looking down on Collin. -On 15-year-old Collin. | 0:13:59 | 0:14:03 | |
He's 15, but he's an adult in the eyes of the law. | 0:14:03 | 0:14:07 | |
-Really? -So this is where Collin would have stood 200 years ago, | 0:14:07 | 0:14:10 | |
just exactly where you're standing now. | 0:14:10 | 0:14:12 | |
-Poor Collin. -And this is the document that we have that describes | 0:14:12 | 0:14:16 | |
what happened on that occasion. | 0:14:16 | 0:14:17 | |
Oh, gosh. So there's his name. | 0:14:17 | 0:14:19 | |
Collin Thomas. OK. | 0:14:19 | 0:14:20 | |
So you can see here, this is what he's charged with. | 0:14:20 | 0:14:23 | |
Well knowing himself, the said Collin Thomas to be an apprentice, | 0:14:23 | 0:14:27 | |
and as such, not an eligible or proper person to enlist to serve | 0:14:27 | 0:14:33 | |
our said... | 0:14:33 | 0:14:35 | |
-Lord. -..Lord the King as a private soldier, but being... | 0:14:35 | 0:14:38 | |
Oh, my gosh! | 0:14:38 | 0:14:39 | |
Look at that! Being an evil, disposed person. | 0:14:39 | 0:14:44 | |
-Evil? -Yeah. | 0:14:44 | 0:14:46 | |
Well, he's taken the money, but he's not going to provide the service. | 0:14:46 | 0:14:49 | |
Yes, but he tried. They came to get him back. | 0:14:49 | 0:14:52 | |
He tried. He wanted to serve. But he's not free to serve. | 0:14:52 | 0:14:54 | |
He belongs to his master. | 0:14:54 | 0:14:56 | |
And why...? I mean, the thing that I keep wanting to ask is, | 0:14:56 | 0:15:00 | |
it said that he'd served almost five and a half years | 0:15:00 | 0:15:03 | |
of his apprenticeship. He only had to do seven. | 0:15:03 | 0:15:06 | |
-Yep. -So what person in their right mind...? | 0:15:06 | 0:15:09 | |
Somebody who's very miserable, somebody who's being ill treated. | 0:15:09 | 0:15:11 | |
-OK. -Maybe somebody who wants to go off with a swashbuckling hero | 0:15:11 | 0:15:14 | |
-and serve the King. -So adventure? | 0:15:14 | 0:15:16 | |
-Maybe adventure. -And that's why he lied about his age. | 0:15:16 | 0:15:18 | |
Well, we can see here, actually, in another document, | 0:15:18 | 0:15:20 | |
-what does happen to him. -OK. Ah, here we go. | 0:15:20 | 0:15:24 | |
Collin Thomas, God, this writing! | 0:15:24 | 0:15:26 | |
Convicted of a felony. | 0:15:26 | 0:15:28 | |
-Let him be imprisoned in Bridewell, is that? -That's it. | 0:15:28 | 0:15:33 | |
For the space of 12 months and kept to hard labour. | 0:15:33 | 0:15:38 | |
Bridewell is another name for a house of correction. | 0:15:38 | 0:15:41 | |
He's there to have his behaviour corrected. | 0:15:41 | 0:15:43 | |
-Right. -And the hard labour really is hard labour. | 0:15:43 | 0:15:45 | |
-And what would that be? -So, in Exeter Bridewell, | 0:15:45 | 0:15:48 | |
it would have been stripping bark. | 0:15:48 | 0:15:50 | |
So that's used in the tanning process, | 0:15:50 | 0:15:52 | |
-where the hide is dipped in urine... -Oh! | 0:15:52 | 0:15:55 | |
-So he would have been in pretty miserable... -Smelly, awful... | 0:15:55 | 0:16:00 | |
Wet, smelly, yeah, unhealthy conditions. | 0:16:00 | 0:16:02 | |
-That is not good. -No. | 0:16:02 | 0:16:04 | |
So what happens to him afterwards? In 1807? | 0:16:04 | 0:16:06 | |
We don't know what happened to him when he came out. | 0:16:06 | 0:16:09 | |
Like lots of people, we just lose track of Collin. | 0:16:09 | 0:16:12 | |
No record survives of Collin being released from prison, | 0:16:12 | 0:16:16 | |
but Barry has found another document. | 0:16:16 | 0:16:19 | |
So this is in French. | 0:16:19 | 0:16:20 | |
-Uh-huh. -Gosh! | 0:16:20 | 0:16:22 | |
Why didn't I listen very much in my French...? | 0:16:23 | 0:16:25 | |
Ah, here we go. That's basically English. | 0:16:25 | 0:16:27 | |
Acte de mariage. Marriage. Act of marriage. | 0:16:27 | 0:16:31 | |
Absolutely. Something a little bit more pleasant for Collin. | 0:16:31 | 0:16:33 | |
So how much longer after he left prison is this? | 0:16:33 | 0:16:38 | |
This is about ten years. | 0:16:38 | 0:16:40 | |
-Ten years! -Ten years we lose track of Collin, then he turns up here. | 0:16:40 | 0:16:44 | |
And, look, hang on. | 0:16:44 | 0:16:46 | |
Is that just because it's on the marriage certificate | 0:16:46 | 0:16:48 | |
that it says "Thomas Colin" there, not "Collin Thomas"? | 0:16:48 | 0:16:51 | |
The name's reversed. | 0:16:51 | 0:16:52 | |
It may be because that's the way the French did it at the time. | 0:16:52 | 0:16:54 | |
-Right. -It may be that he's changed his name to escape his past. | 0:16:54 | 0:16:58 | |
-I'm going with that one. -It could be that. | 0:16:58 | 0:17:00 | |
Because, look, I know that her name is Rad-e-GOOD. | 0:17:00 | 0:17:03 | |
-Or however you say it. -Rad-e-GOND. | 0:17:03 | 0:17:05 | |
-Rad-e-GOND. -Rad-e-GOND. -Wow. | 0:17:05 | 0:17:08 | |
Her name's the right way around. | 0:17:08 | 0:17:09 | |
That's right. So it may be that he's done that just to throw people off | 0:17:09 | 0:17:12 | |
the scent, so he can put his past behind him. | 0:17:12 | 0:17:15 | |
And that must be her surname. | 0:17:15 | 0:17:17 | |
Charbonnel, which was what eluded my mum. | 0:17:17 | 0:17:19 | |
This is the point she got completely stuck. | 0:17:19 | 0:17:22 | |
We also know where they married as well. | 0:17:22 | 0:17:25 | |
Oh, my God, where? | 0:17:25 | 0:17:26 | |
That's really tricky to read. | 0:17:26 | 0:17:28 | |
A... Is that an A or a C? | 0:17:30 | 0:17:32 | |
That's A. In Caudrot. | 0:17:32 | 0:17:34 | |
-Caudrot? -Yeah. | 0:17:34 | 0:17:36 | |
-Your accent's a bit better than mine. -Caudrot. | 0:17:36 | 0:17:37 | |
Yeah. That's a nice village south-east of Bordeaux. | 0:17:37 | 0:17:40 | |
-That is even better. -Yep. | 0:17:41 | 0:17:43 | |
It's a new beginning for Collin. | 0:17:45 | 0:17:46 | |
-Yes. -A marriage, a new land, and as a free man. | 0:17:46 | 0:17:49 | |
I absolutely love France. | 0:17:59 | 0:18:01 | |
I mean... | 0:18:01 | 0:18:03 | |
It's the most... This region is particularly gorgeous. | 0:18:03 | 0:18:07 | |
I'm so curious to find out how Collin ended up here. | 0:18:07 | 0:18:12 | |
How did a little shoemaker - | 0:18:12 | 0:18:16 | |
just out of prison, as well - how did he get to Bordeaux? | 0:18:16 | 0:18:20 | |
Amanda has come to the city of Bordeaux, | 0:18:30 | 0:18:33 | |
the centre of France's famous winemaking region. | 0:18:33 | 0:18:36 | |
Hello. I'm Amanda. | 0:18:38 | 0:18:39 | |
I'm Carol Duvall. Welcome to Bordeaux. | 0:18:39 | 0:18:42 | |
Thank you. | 0:18:42 | 0:18:43 | |
Historian Carol Duvall has been researching Collin's time in France. | 0:18:43 | 0:18:48 | |
So I suppose the question is, how did Collin get here? | 0:18:51 | 0:18:55 | |
He got here because he was in Wellington's Peninsular Army. | 0:18:55 | 0:18:58 | |
-Oh, my God. -Yes. | 0:18:59 | 0:19:01 | |
Well, you know what Wellington said about his army? | 0:19:01 | 0:19:04 | |
The scum of the earth! | 0:19:04 | 0:19:05 | |
And therefore, you know, he would welcome ex-prisoners. | 0:19:06 | 0:19:11 | |
And a year before he joined up, the Peninsular War had started. | 0:19:11 | 0:19:16 | |
Napoleon, of course, had declared himself emperor by this time | 0:19:16 | 0:19:18 | |
and he's extending his empire. | 0:19:18 | 0:19:20 | |
I mean, his plan is to rule the whole of Europe. | 0:19:20 | 0:19:23 | |
So after he left prison he joined up again? | 0:19:23 | 0:19:27 | |
-This is a muster. -So where is he? | 0:19:27 | 0:19:29 | |
Where is he? Ah, Collin, Thomas. | 0:19:29 | 0:19:32 | |
Collin's name is on a register of soldiers serving in the Army | 0:19:33 | 0:19:37 | |
on the 25th of September, 1807. | 0:19:37 | 0:19:40 | |
-He joined the 51st light infantry. -OK. | 0:19:41 | 0:19:45 | |
That was a very good regiment. | 0:19:45 | 0:19:49 | |
And this gives you some idea of what he would have looked like | 0:19:49 | 0:19:52 | |
-in his uniform. -Oh, my gosh! | 0:19:52 | 0:19:54 | |
Mind you, when we talk about what he did for seven years, | 0:19:54 | 0:19:59 | |
-he wouldn't have looked like that all the time. -No. | 0:19:59 | 0:20:01 | |
They got new uniforms, in theory, once a year. | 0:20:01 | 0:20:03 | |
-By the end of the year... -Oh, it would have been really grotty! | 0:20:03 | 0:20:06 | |
-There was lice... -Ugh! | 0:20:06 | 0:20:09 | |
It was just pretty horrendous, in fact. | 0:20:09 | 0:20:11 | |
-Oh, my gosh. -He was in the 51st, | 0:20:11 | 0:20:14 | |
which means that he took part in some really quite dramatic events. | 0:20:14 | 0:20:18 | |
For seven years from 1807, the Peninsular War pitched the forces of | 0:20:19 | 0:20:25 | |
Britain, Spain and Portugal against Napoleon's French army. | 0:20:25 | 0:20:28 | |
Collin went first to the Iberian Peninsula, | 0:20:30 | 0:20:33 | |
fighting his way up through Spain, as the Duke of Wellington | 0:20:33 | 0:20:37 | |
battled Napoleon's forces, driving them back into France. | 0:20:37 | 0:20:40 | |
By the time Wellington reached Bordeaux in 1814, the | 0:20:42 | 0:20:46 | |
local population, who were sympathetic to Britain, had turned | 0:20:46 | 0:20:49 | |
against Napoleon, and welcomed Wellington's army into the city. | 0:20:49 | 0:20:55 | |
So, on the 12th of March, the seventh division... | 0:20:55 | 0:20:58 | |
-OK. -..which is the division that Collin is in, | 0:20:58 | 0:21:01 | |
march into Bordeaux. | 0:21:01 | 0:21:03 | |
They have cheers. | 0:21:03 | 0:21:05 | |
He will have seen people actually throwing flowers and blowing kisses. | 0:21:05 | 0:21:10 | |
-That would have been around here somewhere? -All round here, yes. | 0:21:10 | 0:21:13 | |
That's right. So his particular Brigade of the seventh division | 0:21:13 | 0:21:18 | |
are sent upstream - so that's up that way somewhere - | 0:21:18 | 0:21:21 | |
to a string of villages, and there they are billeted. | 0:21:21 | 0:21:24 | |
And now we move on to May 1814. | 0:21:24 | 0:21:28 | |
At this point, this regiment, the 51st, were about to set sail | 0:21:28 | 0:21:32 | |
-back to England, because, of course, the war was over. -Where is he? | 0:21:32 | 0:21:36 | |
Collin. Oh, there's lots of Thomases. | 0:21:36 | 0:21:38 | |
-Yes, yes. -OK, Thomas... Collin Thomas. | 0:21:38 | 0:21:43 | |
25th of May... | 0:21:43 | 0:21:44 | |
..deserted. No! | 0:21:47 | 0:21:48 | |
-Yes. -Deserted? | 0:21:48 | 0:21:50 | |
Yes. He must have deserted for a very good reason. | 0:21:50 | 0:21:53 | |
-He's coming up to seven years' service. -Yes. | 0:21:53 | 0:21:56 | |
He would have got a pension. | 0:21:56 | 0:21:57 | |
The Army gave pensions for seven years' service. | 0:21:57 | 0:21:59 | |
He doesn't like to do things that are seven years. | 0:21:59 | 0:22:01 | |
His apprenticeship was seven years, and he finished that early as well. | 0:22:01 | 0:22:04 | |
-The seven year itch. -It's interesting when you look at where | 0:22:04 | 0:22:08 | |
the headquarters of the 51st was at this point. | 0:22:08 | 0:22:12 | |
It was at a little village called Caudrot. | 0:22:12 | 0:22:16 | |
-OK. This makes sense now. -And to throw up your pension... | 0:22:16 | 0:22:20 | |
-It must be for love. -A very strong inducement, yes. -Yes. | 0:22:21 | 0:22:24 | |
-It's not fear. -No. -We know he's been through all this. | 0:22:24 | 0:22:28 | |
-He's coped with it. -Yes. -As far as we know he was never in trouble, | 0:22:28 | 0:22:32 | |
no regimental court-martial, or anything like that. | 0:22:32 | 0:22:34 | |
-So he was a good soldier. -So he deserted for love. | 0:22:34 | 0:22:38 | |
-Which I love. -I'm such a romantic. | 0:22:39 | 0:22:43 | |
That's incredible. | 0:22:43 | 0:22:44 | |
I just think what a gorgeous man to follow his heart, | 0:22:44 | 0:22:48 | |
but to be that tough and that strong. | 0:22:48 | 0:22:49 | |
He's also lucky he has a trade, doesn't he? | 0:22:49 | 0:22:51 | |
Yes, a cordwainer. | 0:22:51 | 0:22:53 | |
A skill that will be acceptable wherever he settles. | 0:22:53 | 0:22:57 | |
Always get a trade, that's what my nan says. | 0:22:57 | 0:22:59 | |
-Absolutely. -This is our family. | 0:22:59 | 0:23:01 | |
-I talked about the scum of the earth. -Yes. | 0:23:02 | 0:23:04 | |
-Wellington said that. -Yes. | 0:23:04 | 0:23:06 | |
But he also said, "See what fine fellows we've made of them." | 0:23:06 | 0:23:12 | |
The best army, most military historians agree, | 0:23:12 | 0:23:15 | |
the best army we ever put in the field was the Peninsular Army | 0:23:15 | 0:23:19 | |
at the end of the Peninsular War. | 0:23:19 | 0:23:22 | |
That is incredible. I don't know why I'm welling up. | 0:23:22 | 0:23:24 | |
-I just feel so proud. -It's a lovely story. | 0:23:24 | 0:23:27 | |
He joined as a lad. I suspect he left as a man. | 0:23:30 | 0:23:33 | |
He left as a man. A lovely, gorgeous man. | 0:23:33 | 0:23:36 | |
So we're going upriver, | 0:24:01 | 0:24:04 | |
and I think we're doing the same journey that Collin will have done | 0:24:04 | 0:24:08 | |
from Bordeaux to Caudrot. | 0:24:08 | 0:24:10 | |
And so... Which is why it's fascinating for me, because | 0:24:10 | 0:24:13 | |
I'm looking all around, thinking the landscape's exactly the same. | 0:24:13 | 0:24:16 | |
So he will have seen these trees, that chateaux. | 0:24:16 | 0:24:21 | |
I'm literally seeing what he's seen. | 0:24:21 | 0:24:23 | |
It's incredible. | 0:24:23 | 0:24:25 | |
Caudrot sits on the banks of the Garrone River, | 0:24:27 | 0:24:30 | |
40 miles upstream from Bordeaux. | 0:24:30 | 0:24:33 | |
Collin came here in the spring of 1814. | 0:24:33 | 0:24:36 | |
Amanda has arranged to meet historian, Dr Gregory Chaput. | 0:24:38 | 0:24:42 | |
-Bonjour. -Bonjour. | 0:24:44 | 0:24:46 | |
-Hello. I'm Gregory. -Hello, Gregory, I'm Amanda. | 0:24:46 | 0:24:48 | |
So this is Caudrot. | 0:24:48 | 0:24:50 | |
Yeah, it is. You're actually on the Port of Caudrot. | 0:24:50 | 0:24:53 | |
-Right. -Which was the Port of Caudrot in the early 19th century, | 0:24:53 | 0:24:57 | |
that would have been a very bustling place. | 0:24:57 | 0:25:00 | |
I've got postcards. You can see the river, | 0:25:00 | 0:25:02 | |
full of boats and barges on which the goods were loaded. | 0:25:02 | 0:25:05 | |
-The landscape's absolutely just unchanged. -Yeah, you can see. | 0:25:05 | 0:25:08 | |
-Even the Cedar tree there, look, and the house, everything. -Exactly. | 0:25:08 | 0:25:12 | |
It's the same thing. As you know, from Bordeaux, | 0:25:12 | 0:25:14 | |
-this place was quite anti-Napoleon. -Mm-hm. | 0:25:14 | 0:25:17 | |
So the local people would welcome the British troops. | 0:25:17 | 0:25:21 | |
And there would be fraternisation, | 0:25:21 | 0:25:23 | |
-and I've got here a very interesting document. -Mm-hm. | 0:25:23 | 0:25:26 | |
So this was written by Lieutenant William Hare, | 0:25:26 | 0:25:29 | |
who was in the same regiment as Collin. | 0:25:29 | 0:25:31 | |
It's like a grid. | 0:25:31 | 0:25:32 | |
Yeah, it is. Actually, it's written in two directions. | 0:25:32 | 0:25:35 | |
-Why? -He wanted to use all paper, actually, so he didn't want to... | 0:25:35 | 0:25:40 | |
Waste a tiny inch of space. | 0:25:40 | 0:25:42 | |
-Exactly. -Oh, my goodness. | 0:25:42 | 0:25:44 | |
"If I remain long in this country, and withstand seduction..." | 0:25:44 | 0:25:52 | |
Yeah. It's underlined. | 0:25:52 | 0:25:54 | |
"..it will be wonderful, | 0:25:55 | 0:25:59 | |
"for I never saw such women in my life." | 0:25:59 | 0:26:05 | |
-He's writing this to his wife? -Exactly. | 0:26:05 | 0:26:07 | |
"At a party the other night, a handsome friend of mine | 0:26:10 | 0:26:17 | |
"was there when one of the daughters | 0:26:17 | 0:26:21 | |
"of the house gave him privately the key to her bedroom, | 0:26:21 | 0:26:29 | |
"into which he found the way." | 0:26:29 | 0:26:32 | |
Gosh, wouldn't that be amazing if that was Collin? | 0:26:32 | 0:26:35 | |
Well, it could have been, actually, yeah. | 0:26:35 | 0:26:37 | |
-So they were beautiful women. -Exactly. -And quite naughty! | 0:26:37 | 0:26:41 | |
You see, I know I've inherited that as well from Radegonde. | 0:26:41 | 0:26:46 | |
-That shows they got along very well. -I love that, yes! | 0:26:46 | 0:26:49 | |
So that's what you mean by fraternisation. | 0:26:49 | 0:26:51 | |
-That's a polite word for... We won't say. -Exactly. | 0:26:51 | 0:26:54 | |
-So Collin... -Collin was having a fabulous time. | 0:26:56 | 0:26:59 | |
I have to say, I think he blinking deserved it. | 0:26:59 | 0:27:01 | |
Because he's been through so much. | 0:27:01 | 0:27:03 | |
-He's fought so many battles. -That's true. | 0:27:03 | 0:27:07 | |
The key to somebody's room is the very least he could expect. | 0:27:07 | 0:27:10 | |
-And a barrel of wine. -Right, that's true! | 0:27:10 | 0:27:13 | |
If you want we could go up the street here to have a look at | 0:27:14 | 0:27:18 | |
-Radegonde's family house? -Really? -Yes. | 0:27:18 | 0:27:22 | |
Oh, my God! Really? | 0:27:22 | 0:27:25 | |
Collin, he wasn't an ordinary man, I think we've established that. | 0:27:34 | 0:27:37 | |
But he was a private, he was a shoemaker, so that's quite humble. | 0:27:37 | 0:27:40 | |
So I would imagine she had quite humble beginnings. | 0:27:40 | 0:27:43 | |
Well... | 0:27:43 | 0:27:45 | |
you're standing in front of it. | 0:27:45 | 0:27:48 | |
-That's the actual house. -This house, number nine? -Yep. | 0:27:48 | 0:27:51 | |
It's a good size. | 0:27:55 | 0:27:58 | |
The whole row of houses here, it was full of shops. | 0:27:58 | 0:28:02 | |
I've got here a picture showing the house, | 0:28:02 | 0:28:05 | |
-so you can see the balcony was not here. -Yes. | 0:28:05 | 0:28:07 | |
And that was the actual look of the house and Radegonde and her father | 0:28:13 | 0:28:17 | |
Gerard Charbonnel... | 0:28:17 | 0:28:19 | |
-What was his name? Gerard? -Gerard, yes. Charbonnel. | 0:28:19 | 0:28:22 | |
-Charbonnel. -And her mother was Catherine Labrousse. -Mm-hm. | 0:28:22 | 0:28:25 | |
This was the high street of Caudrot, | 0:28:25 | 0:28:28 | |
linking the market street to the port, where we've been. | 0:28:28 | 0:28:31 | |
And so Collin would not have had very far to come. | 0:28:31 | 0:28:34 | |
-Just literally a little walk up the hill for secret trysts. -Exactly. | 0:28:34 | 0:28:37 | |
Because I can't imagine she was naughty. | 0:28:37 | 0:28:39 | |
She wouldn't have wanted to upset her parents. | 0:28:39 | 0:28:41 | |
So could this have been the house when Collin deserted, | 0:28:41 | 0:28:46 | |
that she could have possibly hidden him in? | 0:28:46 | 0:28:50 | |
Well, that could have been. We have no evidence for that. | 0:28:50 | 0:28:53 | |
But we know he was there. We know he met Radegonde. | 0:28:53 | 0:28:56 | |
We know they fell in love. | 0:28:56 | 0:28:58 | |
And we know they got married about 18 months later in early 1816. | 0:28:58 | 0:29:03 | |
So they got married in the mairie, which was the town hall. | 0:29:03 | 0:29:06 | |
-So not in the church? -Well, the church afterwards. -Right. | 0:29:06 | 0:29:09 | |
They had a service there afterwards, like a blessing, if you would. | 0:29:09 | 0:29:12 | |
So the church is not far away from here. | 0:29:12 | 0:29:14 | |
-We can have a look, if you want? -I want. -OK. | 0:29:14 | 0:29:16 | |
In France, marriage is always a civil ceremony, | 0:29:25 | 0:29:27 | |
performed by the Mayor. | 0:29:27 | 0:29:29 | |
In 1816, Radegonde and Collin would have followed this | 0:29:30 | 0:29:34 | |
by going to the church for a religious service. | 0:29:34 | 0:29:36 | |
So this is much grander than I thought. | 0:29:43 | 0:29:46 | |
I've got extra information about the marriage. | 0:29:51 | 0:29:54 | |
Actually, they've drawn up this prenup agreement. | 0:29:56 | 0:30:00 | |
What? A prenup? | 0:30:00 | 0:30:02 | |
-Well, it's a kind of prenup agreement, yes. -In 1816? | 0:30:02 | 0:30:05 | |
-Yeah, in 1816. -Is that usual? | 0:30:05 | 0:30:08 | |
Well, it wasn't usual, but I'd say that in the family of Radegonde, | 0:30:08 | 0:30:13 | |
it was quite usual. It was kind of... | 0:30:13 | 0:30:15 | |
Catherine Labrousse, her mother, did the same thing. | 0:30:15 | 0:30:18 | |
So it's like a pattern in the family. | 0:30:18 | 0:30:21 | |
I'm loving this - feisty women! | 0:30:21 | 0:30:23 | |
-Exactly. Maybe they wanted to be independent, or... -Yeah. | 0:30:23 | 0:30:26 | |
-So you've got a translation here. -Right. | 0:30:26 | 0:30:29 | |
So it says, "Under and before God, Mr Thomas Collins..." | 0:30:29 | 0:30:33 | |
I said this. | 0:30:33 | 0:30:35 | |
I said he must have turned his name round. | 0:30:35 | 0:30:38 | |
-Now we know, probably, why. -Now I know for absolutely sure, and why. | 0:30:38 | 0:30:42 | |
Because he deserted, so he might have wanted to change his name, | 0:30:42 | 0:30:46 | |
and to hide a bit. | 0:30:46 | 0:30:47 | |
"Here Radegonde Charbonnel, minor." | 0:30:47 | 0:30:50 | |
Minor? So was she underage? | 0:30:51 | 0:30:54 | |
She was under 21. | 0:30:54 | 0:30:56 | |
-That's what it means. -I wonder if that's why they waited. | 0:30:56 | 0:31:00 | |
Because he landed at 1814, they got married in 1816. | 0:31:00 | 0:31:04 | |
You would think... They just waited. | 0:31:04 | 0:31:06 | |
Maybe. | 0:31:06 | 0:31:08 | |
"The future spouses declare that there was born out of wedlock | 0:31:08 | 0:31:13 | |
"a child of the feminine gender, to which they gave the name Catherine. | 0:31:13 | 0:31:17 | |
"Born last the 26th of October | 0:31:17 | 0:31:20 | |
"to legitimise, and legally recognise her." | 0:31:20 | 0:31:23 | |
It's true. | 0:31:25 | 0:31:26 | |
-Out of wedlock. So they didn't wait! -No, they didn't wait. | 0:31:26 | 0:31:29 | |
-Oh, my God! -So you've got the answer to your question. | 0:31:29 | 0:31:32 | |
-But I didn't know anything about her. -Well, that's their first child. | 0:31:33 | 0:31:37 | |
-Remember the letter we read earlier about William Hare? -Yes. | 0:31:38 | 0:31:43 | |
So maybe Radegonde gave the key to her bedroom to... | 0:31:43 | 0:31:48 | |
There was me thinking, | 0:31:51 | 0:31:53 | |
"They waited two years so they could get married and do it all right, | 0:31:53 | 0:31:57 | |
"the right way round." Although, you know, what is the right way round? | 0:31:57 | 0:32:00 | |
A baby is everything. | 0:32:00 | 0:32:02 | |
How amazing. Would the French have been a bit more relaxed about that? | 0:32:02 | 0:32:06 | |
I don't know. At the time, probably not. | 0:32:06 | 0:32:09 | |
So after that, they had Louis, as you know. | 0:32:09 | 0:32:12 | |
-In 1818. -Mm-hm. -And sometime before 1821 they moved back to England. | 0:32:12 | 0:32:18 | |
We know that because they had another child, another girl, | 0:32:18 | 0:32:23 | |
actually, born in Truro, in Cornwall, in 1821, Lisbeth. | 0:32:23 | 0:32:28 | |
And they had nine children. | 0:32:28 | 0:32:30 | |
-What?! -In total. | 0:32:30 | 0:32:31 | |
-Nine? -Nine, including Catherine, Louis, Lisbeth, and the others. | 0:32:31 | 0:32:38 | |
So they went back to England, | 0:32:38 | 0:32:39 | |
but there is a French line of your family staying here, obviously. | 0:32:39 | 0:32:43 | |
-Yes. -Catherine Labrousse, for example. | 0:32:43 | 0:32:45 | |
So I've got another document here. | 0:32:45 | 0:32:48 | |
-So this is... -Oh, I want to cry, I'm so happy. | 0:32:50 | 0:32:53 | |
-So this is a document from 1832. -OK. | 0:32:54 | 0:32:57 | |
It's about Catherine Labrousse, who is Radegonde's mother. | 0:32:58 | 0:33:02 | |
So this document is actually listing a property. | 0:33:02 | 0:33:05 | |
It says that she has a vineyard. | 0:33:05 | 0:33:08 | |
What?! | 0:33:08 | 0:33:09 | |
It's true. | 0:33:10 | 0:33:12 | |
Oh, yes! | 0:33:12 | 0:33:13 | |
Une piece de terre en vigne. That's what it means. | 0:33:13 | 0:33:16 | |
Piece de terre en vigne. | 0:33:16 | 0:33:17 | |
-Where's that? -And we actually have the name of it. | 0:33:17 | 0:33:20 | |
-It's named Castouret. -Castouret. | 0:33:20 | 0:33:25 | |
In the commune of Caudrot. | 0:33:25 | 0:33:28 | |
Does it...? Is it...? Tell me it still exists! | 0:33:28 | 0:33:31 | |
-It actually still exists. -Do they produce wine from it? | 0:33:31 | 0:33:34 | |
Well, they still produce wine in this area. | 0:33:34 | 0:33:37 | |
This is a modern map of Caudrot. | 0:33:37 | 0:33:40 | |
-Oh, my God. -This is the centre of Caudrot. | 0:33:40 | 0:33:44 | |
And if you look about here... | 0:33:44 | 0:33:48 | |
-You can read... -Oh, yes, Castouret. | 0:33:48 | 0:33:50 | |
Exactly. So that's the place. | 0:33:50 | 0:33:52 | |
And there's still a vineyard there. | 0:33:52 | 0:33:54 | |
So would she have gone there? Would she have worked there? | 0:33:54 | 0:33:56 | |
Well, her mother, Catherine Labrousse's mother was called Radegonde. | 0:33:56 | 0:34:01 | |
-Right. -Radegonde Ballan. | 0:34:01 | 0:34:03 | |
Amanda has now discovered three generations of her maternal French | 0:34:06 | 0:34:10 | |
ancestors, back to her seven times great-grandmother, Radegonde Ballan. | 0:34:10 | 0:34:15 | |
The Ballans were a family of winemakers. | 0:34:16 | 0:34:19 | |
They had several vineyards in the area. | 0:34:19 | 0:34:22 | |
-Several? -And one of them was Castouret. | 0:34:23 | 0:34:25 | |
Oh, I love you, Gregory! | 0:34:25 | 0:34:28 | |
-Oh, my God. -So you could go there if you want. | 0:34:28 | 0:34:30 | |
-I'm so going there. -Now we know where it is. | 0:34:30 | 0:34:32 | |
I'm going there. They were owners! | 0:34:32 | 0:34:35 | |
That's like a dream. | 0:34:36 | 0:34:37 | |
-That's... -Oh, that's good. | 0:34:37 | 0:34:38 | |
So, Gregory said come and find Castouret vineyard, | 0:34:47 | 0:34:51 | |
so I'm literally at the fork here. | 0:34:51 | 0:34:53 | |
There's a road there, road there. It's got to be over here somewhere. | 0:34:53 | 0:34:58 | |
It's just incredible. | 0:35:08 | 0:35:09 | |
This legacy has been inherited or passed down through all the women | 0:35:09 | 0:35:12 | |
in the family. That's, in itself, unique. | 0:35:12 | 0:35:16 | |
Three generations of women. | 0:35:16 | 0:35:17 | |
I couldn't have asked for anything better. | 0:35:19 | 0:35:22 | |
My family used to own a vineyard. That's like heaven. | 0:35:22 | 0:35:24 | |
So this is it. Chateaux Castouret. | 0:35:26 | 0:35:28 | |
-WINE GLUGS -I love that noise. | 0:35:30 | 0:35:32 | |
For Collin to end up here, | 0:35:37 | 0:35:41 | |
after so much... | 0:35:41 | 0:35:44 | |
I don't know, I think the thing I love about Collin the most is he was | 0:35:44 | 0:35:46 | |
a rule breaker. He was very instinctive. | 0:35:46 | 0:35:49 | |
He led with his heart. | 0:35:49 | 0:35:51 | |
He, kind of, didn't care if he got into trouble. | 0:35:52 | 0:35:55 | |
He did what he felt was right, against all the odds. | 0:35:55 | 0:36:00 | |
And it all turned out for him in the end. | 0:36:00 | 0:36:02 | |
Cheers. | 0:36:04 | 0:36:06 | |
It's actually delicious, you know. | 0:36:09 | 0:36:12 | |
Apparently it was a very good year, 2010. | 0:36:12 | 0:36:14 | |
Amanda's now returning to England to investigate | 0:36:18 | 0:36:21 | |
her paternal grandfather, Frank Holden. | 0:36:21 | 0:36:24 | |
On that side of the family, Amanda has less to go on. | 0:36:26 | 0:36:29 | |
After her parents divorced, Amanda lost touch with her father, Frank, | 0:36:34 | 0:36:39 | |
and never met her grandfather, Frank Holden senior, | 0:36:39 | 0:36:42 | |
who died in 1983, aged 71. | 0:36:42 | 0:36:46 | |
-Hello. -How lovely to see you. -How lovely to see you. | 0:36:46 | 0:36:50 | |
Amanda's arranged to meet her Uncle George, her father's brother. | 0:36:50 | 0:36:54 | |
George has brought Frank senior's photo albums with him. | 0:36:55 | 0:36:58 | |
-Oh, look at him there. -He used to do the singing and dancing, | 0:36:59 | 0:37:03 | |
-and entertaining. -Because I've always wondered where this... | 0:37:03 | 0:37:06 | |
-Theatrical. -..theatre side of me has come from. -Yeah. | 0:37:06 | 0:37:09 | |
And so it's obviously come from the Holden side. | 0:37:09 | 0:37:11 | |
The Holden family, both his brothers were entertainers. | 0:37:11 | 0:37:15 | |
All I know, very sadly, about Frank senior is that, you know, | 0:37:15 | 0:37:22 | |
I got a phone call from my mum to say that he'd taken his own life, | 0:37:22 | 0:37:27 | |
and that's just, you know... It's heartbreaking. | 0:37:27 | 0:37:30 | |
A lot of people were devastated. | 0:37:30 | 0:37:32 | |
I never met anybody who had a bad word to say against him. | 0:37:32 | 0:37:35 | |
Gosh, this is very precious. | 0:37:37 | 0:37:38 | |
They are getting a bit old and fragile, these. | 0:37:38 | 0:37:40 | |
No, it's just nice to have, isn't it? | 0:37:40 | 0:37:42 | |
Oh, wow. So this is, what year is this, do you know? | 0:37:42 | 0:37:46 | |
That will be about 1942. | 0:37:46 | 0:37:48 | |
-During the war. -What did he do in the Army? | 0:37:48 | 0:37:51 | |
He was in the Royal Army Medical Corps. | 0:37:51 | 0:37:52 | |
He was a psychiatric nurse, he obviously... | 0:37:52 | 0:37:55 | |
With his nursing training | 0:37:55 | 0:37:56 | |
from before the war he was very well qualified. | 0:37:56 | 0:37:59 | |
-When it started, obviously, he was a nothing, a Private. -Mm-hm. | 0:37:59 | 0:38:03 | |
He ended up as a regimental Sergeant Major, | 0:38:03 | 0:38:04 | |
which is the highest non-commissioned rank you can get, | 0:38:04 | 0:38:07 | |
so he really is pulling up through the ranks. | 0:38:07 | 0:38:10 | |
Gosh. He's very handsome. | 0:38:12 | 0:38:15 | |
He's like a movie star there. | 0:38:16 | 0:38:17 | |
Now, you see this person here, covered in oil... | 0:38:19 | 0:38:24 | |
-Is that oil, not blood? -Oil and water. | 0:38:24 | 0:38:27 | |
-That's your grandad. -What is he doing? | 0:38:29 | 0:38:32 | |
He was shipwrecked. | 0:38:32 | 0:38:34 | |
Really? Shipwrecked? | 0:38:34 | 0:38:36 | |
In the 1940s, was this? | 0:38:36 | 0:38:38 | |
Yes, 1940 exactly. June 1940. | 0:38:38 | 0:38:41 | |
What was the name of the ship he was on? | 0:38:41 | 0:38:43 | |
He was on the Lancastria. | 0:38:43 | 0:38:45 | |
-I've never heard of that. -No, I don't suppose you have. | 0:38:45 | 0:38:47 | |
It was one of these things that was kept very quiet during the war. | 0:38:47 | 0:38:50 | |
-OK. -He used to get quite emotional about it, | 0:38:50 | 0:38:52 | |
and that was unusual for my dad, | 0:38:52 | 0:38:53 | |
because he was a very calm and collected guy. | 0:38:53 | 0:38:56 | |
-But look at him. He's... -He's dishing out a pot of tea. | 0:38:56 | 0:38:58 | |
Dishing out tea. He literally, just nearly drowned at that point, | 0:38:58 | 0:39:01 | |
and now he's giving tea to everybody. | 0:39:01 | 0:39:02 | |
He used to say to my brother and I, you know, | 0:39:02 | 0:39:06 | |
"You've never been in the Navy until you've been shipwrecked." | 0:39:06 | 0:39:08 | |
So I learned an awful lot about Frank senior then, | 0:39:16 | 0:39:18 | |
but I think the most poignant and interesting was the fact that | 0:39:18 | 0:39:22 | |
he was shipwrecked. So I think I need to find out, well, | 0:39:22 | 0:39:25 | |
go and find his army records, I suppose. | 0:39:25 | 0:39:27 | |
Look up the Lancastria. | 0:39:27 | 0:39:30 | |
Amanda has an appointment at the Aldershot headquarters | 0:39:41 | 0:39:45 | |
of the Royal Army Medical Corps, with their historian, | 0:39:45 | 0:39:48 | |
Captain Peter Starling. | 0:39:48 | 0:39:49 | |
So, Peter, I'm learning about my paternal grandfather, Frank Holden... | 0:39:52 | 0:39:56 | |
Senior. I know he was a nurse, | 0:39:56 | 0:40:01 | |
and I know he joined the Army. | 0:40:01 | 0:40:04 | |
And that's about it, really. | 0:40:04 | 0:40:05 | |
-Did you ever meet him, or...? -I didn't know him, no. | 0:40:05 | 0:40:08 | |
I didn't know anything about him at all. | 0:40:08 | 0:40:10 | |
He was obviously a very exceptional psychiatric nurse. | 0:40:10 | 0:40:13 | |
"Dear Sir, I have pleasure in informing you that you | 0:40:15 | 0:40:17 | |
"qualified for the Campbell Clark medal and prize. | 0:40:17 | 0:40:22 | |
"Your medal is being engraved and will be forwarded | 0:40:22 | 0:40:24 | |
"with a cheque for three guineas | 0:40:24 | 0:40:27 | |
"in the near future." | 0:40:27 | 0:40:29 | |
This medal, which is awarded for the person gaining top marks | 0:40:29 | 0:40:33 | |
-in his examinations. -Oh, wow. In the country? | 0:40:33 | 0:40:36 | |
Yes. He's going to be quite sought after. | 0:40:36 | 0:40:38 | |
See, this is what interests me, because I didn't know... | 0:40:38 | 0:40:41 | |
I thought that post-traumatic stress syndrome and, you know, | 0:40:41 | 0:40:44 | |
mental health care with the Army and all our armed forces | 0:40:44 | 0:40:47 | |
was a relatively new idea, | 0:40:47 | 0:40:49 | |
and that they just kind of told you to get on with it back then. | 0:40:49 | 0:40:52 | |
No, not by the time that we're looking at here, | 0:40:52 | 0:40:55 | |
approaching the Second World War. | 0:40:55 | 0:40:58 | |
It was after the First World War, really, | 0:40:58 | 0:40:59 | |
with all the soldiers suffering from shellshock that they realised that | 0:40:59 | 0:41:04 | |
this isn't cowardice. It's not a lack of moral fibre. | 0:41:04 | 0:41:07 | |
It's a hidden wound. And we needed male nurses, doctors, | 0:41:07 | 0:41:12 | |
who were trained to look after our psychiatric cases. | 0:41:12 | 0:41:15 | |
So he would have been snapped up? | 0:41:15 | 0:41:16 | |
He would have been snapped up. | 0:41:16 | 0:41:18 | |
-Now the war clouds are looming, aren't they? -Yeah. | 0:41:18 | 0:41:20 | |
-Through the summer of 1939. -Yes. | 0:41:20 | 0:41:22 | |
And eventually, Britain declares war on Germany. | 0:41:22 | 0:41:25 | |
-In September. -And I don't know if you can read this, it says... | 0:41:25 | 0:41:30 | |
Mobilised. 1st of September, 1939. | 0:41:30 | 0:41:34 | |
And then underneath it? | 0:41:35 | 0:41:37 | |
-BEF? -British Expeditionary Force. | 0:41:37 | 0:41:39 | |
Frank Holden was one of the first members of the | 0:41:41 | 0:41:43 | |
British Expeditionary Force sent to France in September 1939 | 0:41:43 | 0:41:47 | |
to protect Western Europe from German invasion. | 0:41:47 | 0:41:51 | |
He joined a team of about 200 medics, known as a field ambulance. | 0:41:55 | 0:42:00 | |
On the 10th of May 1940, Germany invaded, unleashing blitzkrieg, | 0:42:03 | 0:42:09 | |
lightning war, quickly overwhelming Allied forces. | 0:42:09 | 0:42:14 | |
Nursing orderlies like Frank were the front line medics of their day, | 0:42:14 | 0:42:18 | |
and would have been in the thick of the action. | 0:42:18 | 0:42:21 | |
26th of May, 1940, is the crucial date. | 0:42:21 | 0:42:24 | |
The British Army is being pushed back by the Germans | 0:42:24 | 0:42:28 | |
towards the French coast at Dunkirk, and, as you know, | 0:42:28 | 0:42:31 | |
this big flotilla of ships goes over there and rescues the British Army. | 0:42:31 | 0:42:34 | |
-Yes. yes. -But look at this date here. | 0:42:34 | 0:42:35 | |
That's the 26th of May 1940. | 0:42:35 | 0:42:37 | |
But if you look at Frank's date... | 0:42:37 | 0:42:40 | |
He doesn't leave France until the 20th of June. | 0:42:40 | 0:42:43 | |
-Oh, until June. -Yes. -So where was he? | 0:42:43 | 0:42:46 | |
Trapped south of Dunkirk, in St Nazaire. | 0:42:46 | 0:42:51 | |
There's thousands more British soldiers that are there | 0:42:51 | 0:42:55 | |
-in this little enclave. -So he was left behind? | 0:42:55 | 0:42:58 | |
-He was left behind. -So, I know that Frank was shipwrecked. | 0:42:58 | 0:43:03 | |
Could it have been a ship that was trying to get him home | 0:43:03 | 0:43:06 | |
that was actually shipwrecked? The Lancastria. | 0:43:06 | 0:43:08 | |
There's nothing in his record here that says he was on the Lancastria, | 0:43:08 | 0:43:13 | |
or that he was shipwrecked. | 0:43:13 | 0:43:14 | |
-There's no clue. If you didn't know, you just wouldn't know. -No. | 0:43:14 | 0:43:17 | |
It looks like I'm going to have to go back to France! | 0:43:17 | 0:43:19 | |
-I think so. -Brittany. | 0:43:19 | 0:43:20 | |
I think if you go to Brittany you might find, hopefully, | 0:43:20 | 0:43:23 | |
something else about him. | 0:43:23 | 0:43:25 | |
So I'm heading towards St Nazaire to find out more about my grandfather, | 0:43:40 | 0:43:44 | |
and his efforts to escape the Germans. | 0:43:44 | 0:43:48 | |
I'm basically following the same route, | 0:43:49 | 0:43:52 | |
on almost the same mode of travel. | 0:43:52 | 0:43:54 | |
Amanda has discovered that her grandfather was stranded in France | 0:44:02 | 0:44:05 | |
after the evacuation of Dunkirk, | 0:44:05 | 0:44:08 | |
and ended up in St Nazaire, | 0:44:08 | 0:44:11 | |
450 miles further south along the Brittany coast. | 0:44:11 | 0:44:14 | |
Amanda is in the port of St Nazaire to find out more about the ship, | 0:44:32 | 0:44:36 | |
the Lancastria, | 0:44:36 | 0:44:37 | |
which she knows her grandfather was on when he was shipwrecked. | 0:44:37 | 0:44:41 | |
She's meeting historian, Jonathan Fenby. | 0:44:43 | 0:44:45 | |
So these are the docks, the quayside... | 0:44:47 | 0:44:49 | |
-OK. -..of St Nazaire. | 0:44:49 | 0:44:51 | |
This is what it would have looked like, so it was a very, very... | 0:44:52 | 0:44:56 | |
-Had been a very lively place. -Mm. | 0:44:56 | 0:44:58 | |
Quite certainly. And these are men marching down the quayside, | 0:44:58 | 0:45:03 | |
trying to get onto a lot of small boats which were moored here. | 0:45:03 | 0:45:08 | |
Because the big boats, which had come in the rescue flotilla, | 0:45:08 | 0:45:11 | |
including the Lancastria, were anchored four miles or so out there. | 0:45:11 | 0:45:15 | |
It's very wide, the Loire estuary at this point, but it's very shallow, | 0:45:15 | 0:45:19 | |
-so they couldn't get close in. -Right. | 0:45:19 | 0:45:22 | |
They had to all be ferried out in much smaller boats. | 0:45:22 | 0:45:24 | |
30,000 service personnel descended on St Nazaire from all over France. | 0:45:26 | 0:45:32 | |
Everyone was desperate to find a way out, | 0:45:34 | 0:45:37 | |
before German forces attacked. | 0:45:37 | 0:45:38 | |
And when the men were here, they were looking... | 0:45:41 | 0:45:43 | |
They all wanted to go out to the Lancastria. | 0:45:43 | 0:45:45 | |
-They all thought it was the safest place to be. -Mm. | 0:45:45 | 0:45:48 | |
One said, "It's as solid as the Strand Palace Hotel." | 0:45:48 | 0:45:51 | |
Before the war, | 0:45:56 | 0:45:57 | |
the Lancastria had been a luxury transatlantic cruise liner. | 0:45:57 | 0:46:02 | |
In 1940, she was requisitioned as a troopship. | 0:46:02 | 0:46:06 | |
Jonathan is taking Amanda to where her grandfather and thousands | 0:46:08 | 0:46:12 | |
of others were queueing up to embark on the 17th of June, 1940. | 0:46:12 | 0:46:17 | |
You can see here British troops, when crossing the bridge, | 0:46:18 | 0:46:22 | |
and the ships were waiting for them down here. | 0:46:22 | 0:46:23 | |
The smaller ships waiting here to take them out to the Lancastria. | 0:46:23 | 0:46:28 | |
-There's absolutely hundreds of them. -Hundreds and hundreds. | 0:46:28 | 0:46:30 | |
Coming round and getting onto the Highlander, which was a destroyer, | 0:46:30 | 0:46:34 | |
which was one of the ships which is here. | 0:46:34 | 0:46:37 | |
And we have these photographs because a member of the crew of the | 0:46:37 | 0:46:41 | |
Highlander was a very keen amateur photographer called Clements. | 0:46:41 | 0:46:44 | |
He exchanged a pair of socks for a roll of film in St Nazaire, | 0:46:44 | 0:46:49 | |
and he took these photographs, | 0:46:49 | 0:46:51 | |
but we don't know how many got onto the Lancastria. | 0:46:51 | 0:46:54 | |
What was the normal capacity? | 0:46:54 | 0:46:55 | |
Well, the normal capacity would have been 2,500. | 0:46:55 | 0:46:58 | |
The captain reckoned they could take 4,000. | 0:46:58 | 0:47:01 | |
He was told, take as many as arrive, basically. | 0:47:01 | 0:47:04 | |
The stewards counted them in with a little clicker, but they | 0:47:04 | 0:47:08 | |
were overheard to say, "We stopped counting when it reached 6,000." | 0:47:08 | 0:47:12 | |
And some people think it may have been 8,000-9,000. | 0:47:12 | 0:47:14 | |
-Gosh! So it was absolutely rammed. -Absolutely rammed. | 0:47:14 | 0:47:18 | |
Frank Holden was one of the thousands who were taken out | 0:47:18 | 0:47:21 | |
to the Lancastria and crammed into the ship's holds and on deck. | 0:47:21 | 0:47:25 | |
Finally, the captain decided the ship could take no more. | 0:47:26 | 0:47:29 | |
The last load from the destroyer, Highlander, was turned away. | 0:47:31 | 0:47:36 | |
The ship could have left earlier, but, first of all, | 0:47:36 | 0:47:38 | |
the French had not wanted it to leave, | 0:47:38 | 0:47:40 | |
and then the captain made excuses not to go, not to go. | 0:47:40 | 0:47:43 | |
He wanted an escort. He was afraid of submarines. | 0:47:43 | 0:47:46 | |
-Mm. -And so on. It was really a sitting duck. | 0:47:46 | 0:47:48 | |
At 3:43pm, the ship's air raid siren began to wail. | 0:47:52 | 0:47:58 | |
And then a German plane dived down onto the Lancastria, | 0:47:58 | 0:48:03 | |
unleashed four bombs, three of which went straight into the holds. | 0:48:03 | 0:48:07 | |
One of which, according to some accounts, went down the funnel. | 0:48:07 | 0:48:10 | |
It blew up, and the whole ship turned into an inferno. | 0:48:10 | 0:48:14 | |
Oh, my God! | 0:48:14 | 0:48:15 | |
Many of those who lost their lives | 0:48:22 | 0:48:24 | |
were trapped in the holds of the ship. | 0:48:24 | 0:48:27 | |
-A lot of people were killed instantly. -Yes. -For instance, | 0:48:29 | 0:48:31 | |
the RAF crew who were in, ground crew, who were in the holds, | 0:48:31 | 0:48:34 | |
they were all blown up. There were fires all over the place. | 0:48:34 | 0:48:38 | |
One man said, "If there was a hell, this was it." | 0:48:38 | 0:48:41 | |
-This was it. -This was it. | 0:48:41 | 0:48:42 | |
Those who made it onto the upturned hull, | 0:48:46 | 0:48:49 | |
or struggled in the water, were easy targets for the German planes, | 0:48:49 | 0:48:53 | |
which machine gunned survivors. | 0:48:53 | 0:48:55 | |
Just 24 minutes after the first bomb hit, the Lancastria sank. | 0:48:58 | 0:49:03 | |
The sinking of the Lancastria remains the single worst disaster | 0:49:06 | 0:49:10 | |
in Britain's maritime history. | 0:49:10 | 0:49:12 | |
More people lost their lives than on the Titanic and Lusitania | 0:49:13 | 0:49:17 | |
put together. | 0:49:17 | 0:49:18 | |
I just can't imagine what it was like for Frank, | 0:49:18 | 0:49:22 | |
and all those thousands of people. | 0:49:22 | 0:49:24 | |
I mean, it must have been absolutely terrifying. | 0:49:24 | 0:49:27 | |
76 years later, | 0:49:30 | 0:49:31 | |
there is only a small number of survivors still left alive. | 0:49:31 | 0:49:36 | |
Along with the military, | 0:49:38 | 0:49:39 | |
British families and civilians were also being evacuated. | 0:49:39 | 0:49:45 | |
The youngest person aboard the Lancastria was Jacqueline Tanner, | 0:49:45 | 0:49:49 | |
who was travelling with her mother and father. | 0:49:49 | 0:49:51 | |
She was two years old in June 1940. | 0:49:51 | 0:49:53 | |
-Hello, I'm Amanda. -Hello, Amanda. I'm Jacqueline. | 0:49:56 | 0:49:58 | |
-Lovely to meet you. -And you. | 0:49:58 | 0:50:00 | |
I'm going to take you out to the wreck site... | 0:50:00 | 0:50:03 | |
-How exciting. -..where the Lancastria went down. | 0:50:03 | 0:50:06 | |
The ship's sonar reveals the first sign of the Lancastria, | 0:50:20 | 0:50:23 | |
sitting upright on the seabed below them. | 0:50:23 | 0:50:26 | |
As you can see on the screen, this is the bow of the wreck, | 0:50:27 | 0:50:31 | |
and this is the rear. | 0:50:31 | 0:50:33 | |
It's 20 metres deep. | 0:50:33 | 0:50:35 | |
So is it lying on its bottom? | 0:50:36 | 0:50:39 | |
Yes, it's about ten metres high. | 0:50:39 | 0:50:42 | |
So is this the deck we're looking at? | 0:50:42 | 0:50:44 | |
Yes, this is... This part is the first deck. | 0:50:44 | 0:50:48 | |
A buoy marks the spot where the Lancastria sank. | 0:50:53 | 0:50:56 | |
Jacqueline's mother and father managed to get into a lifeboat, | 0:50:59 | 0:51:02 | |
but it capsized, | 0:51:02 | 0:51:04 | |
throwing them and their two-year-old daughter into the water. | 0:51:04 | 0:51:07 | |
Mother looked across at my father and said, "What do we do"? | 0:51:08 | 0:51:12 | |
And he went, "Swim". | 0:51:12 | 0:51:15 | |
And luckily, they were both very good swimmers. | 0:51:15 | 0:51:18 | |
-Yes. -And they started swimming. | 0:51:18 | 0:51:21 | |
-And what about you? -Well, I was being held, apparently, | 0:51:21 | 0:51:26 | |
in my father's teeth. | 0:51:26 | 0:51:28 | |
One of the other survivors wrote an account | 0:51:28 | 0:51:30 | |
of how he rescued Jacqueline. | 0:51:30 | 0:51:32 | |
"A lifeboat was quite near, and I swam towards it." | 0:51:33 | 0:51:36 | |
"Suddenly, a woman's agonised cry rang out. | 0:51:36 | 0:51:39 | |
"Baby here! Baby here." | 0:51:39 | 0:51:41 | |
-Is this your mother? -Yes. | 0:51:41 | 0:51:43 | |
"As an echo, I heard the small voice of a child repeating, 'Baby, baby'." | 0:51:44 | 0:51:50 | |
-That's me. -Oh, Jacqueline, that's you. | 0:51:50 | 0:51:53 | |
"I looked over to see a man and a woman, swimming along, | 0:51:53 | 0:51:55 | |
"holding up, out of the sea, a tiny mite, a little girl. | 0:51:55 | 0:51:59 | |
"And I realised it was the same woman who had nearly landed | 0:51:59 | 0:52:02 | |
"on top of me when the lifeboat tipped up. | 0:52:02 | 0:52:05 | |
"The sight of this man plodding along in grim silence, | 0:52:05 | 0:52:08 | |
"and the mother who cried out only for the safety of her child | 0:52:08 | 0:52:11 | |
"warmed my heart, and I struggled on beside them. | 0:52:11 | 0:52:14 | |
"Suddenly, I found a piece of wood, | 0:52:15 | 0:52:17 | |
"not a very large piece, | 0:52:17 | 0:52:18 | |
"but it would do fine to put the baby on, I thought. | 0:52:18 | 0:52:21 | |
"And, swimming over, we pushed it under the baby. | 0:52:21 | 0:52:23 | |
"She looked quite comfortable, | 0:52:25 | 0:52:26 | |
"and I now felt that I must get away from those cries of distress, | 0:52:26 | 0:52:30 | |
"and I swam away." | 0:52:30 | 0:52:32 | |
Do you know who that was? | 0:52:32 | 0:52:34 | |
-No. -You never knew who that was? | 0:52:34 | 0:52:36 | |
No, I didn't, no. | 0:52:36 | 0:52:37 | |
He saved your life. | 0:52:37 | 0:52:39 | |
He did. Well, he helped save my life. | 0:52:39 | 0:52:41 | |
And Mother and Father then were three hours in the water, | 0:52:41 | 0:52:47 | |
and then they were eventually picked up, and we were being transferred | 0:52:47 | 0:52:53 | |
-to the Highlander, which had... -Aha! | 0:52:53 | 0:52:56 | |
-The Highlander, I have a picture here... -You do? | 0:52:56 | 0:53:00 | |
..because my grandfather, Frank, there he is. | 0:53:00 | 0:53:04 | |
-So this is on the Highlander? -This is on the Highlander, | 0:53:06 | 0:53:08 | |
-and he's covered in oil, like you must have been. -Mm. | 0:53:08 | 0:53:12 | |
And he's wrapped in a blanket, other people are wrapped in a blanket, | 0:53:12 | 0:53:16 | |
-And he's... This is the thing that... -Pouring tea! | 0:53:16 | 0:53:18 | |
He's pouring tea! A good old British cup of tea. | 0:53:18 | 0:53:21 | |
He must have been on the shame ship as you. | 0:53:21 | 0:53:23 | |
He must have been. And he was a lucky one as well. | 0:53:23 | 0:53:25 | |
He survived. | 0:53:25 | 0:53:27 | |
4,000 men, women and children are known to have lost their lives, | 0:53:53 | 0:53:58 | |
but the figure is thought to be much higher, as there was no | 0:53:58 | 0:54:01 | |
accurate count of the thousands crowded on board the Lancastria. | 0:54:01 | 0:54:06 | |
I think you and my grandfather were extremely lucky to get out of there. | 0:54:14 | 0:54:18 | |
-Oh, yes. -But the thing I don't really understand, Jacqueline, | 0:54:18 | 0:54:22 | |
is that this is a bigger disaster than the Titanic, | 0:54:22 | 0:54:26 | |
and yet I've never heard of it. | 0:54:26 | 0:54:28 | |
At the time, when this happened, of course, | 0:54:28 | 0:54:30 | |
it was too big a disaster to publish. We have here a book. | 0:54:30 | 0:54:37 | |
There's a piece on there you might like to read. | 0:54:37 | 0:54:40 | |
OK. So this is Winston Churchill's... | 0:54:40 | 0:54:43 | |
-Winston Churchill's... -..diary. | 0:54:43 | 0:54:45 | |
"One frightful incident occurred on the 17th at St Nazaire. | 0:54:45 | 0:54:49 | |
"The 20,000 tonne liner, the Lancastria, | 0:54:49 | 0:54:53 | |
"with 5,000 men on board, was bombed and set on fire | 0:54:53 | 0:54:57 | |
"just as she was about to leave. When this news came to me in the | 0:54:57 | 0:55:00 | |
"quiet cabinet room during the afternoon, I forbade its publication..." | 0:55:00 | 0:55:05 | |
Ah, here we go. "..saying, 'the newspapers have got quite enough | 0:55:05 | 0:55:08 | |
" 'disaster for today, at least.' I had intended to release the news | 0:55:08 | 0:55:13 | |
"a few days later, but events crowded upon us so black | 0:55:13 | 0:55:17 | |
"and so quickly that I forgot to lift the ban." | 0:55:17 | 0:55:21 | |
I can see that it was done for morale, for the people in Britain, | 0:55:21 | 0:55:25 | |
but now it needs recognition. | 0:55:25 | 0:55:28 | |
Yes, it did need recognition. | 0:55:28 | 0:55:30 | |
-There he is. -And there he is. | 0:55:30 | 0:55:32 | |
Isn't it amazing that you both survived a massive disaster, and... | 0:55:32 | 0:55:37 | |
And he was not very old? | 0:55:37 | 0:55:38 | |
He wasn't very old, you were tiny. | 0:55:38 | 0:55:40 | |
I just like to think that he may have seen you, | 0:55:40 | 0:55:42 | |
-because it must have been... -Well, he probably did. | 0:55:42 | 0:55:44 | |
A little tot like you. | 0:55:44 | 0:55:46 | |
It's a small world, in some ways. | 0:55:46 | 0:55:49 | |
Isn't it? It's taken a long time for us to find out | 0:55:49 | 0:55:53 | |
that we've got something in common. | 0:55:53 | 0:55:55 | |
HMT Lancastria. | 0:56:05 | 0:56:08 | |
Opposite this place lies the wreck of the troopship Lancastria. | 0:56:08 | 0:56:12 | |
Learning about Frank's story has just been incredible for me. | 0:56:14 | 0:56:20 | |
He was a survivor. He was one of the lucky ones | 0:56:21 | 0:56:24 | |
from this disaster, and I hope that this story | 0:56:24 | 0:56:30 | |
will keep the memory alive of those 4,000 who didn't make it back home. | 0:56:30 | 0:56:36 | |
It's odd that I never got to meet him, | 0:56:37 | 0:56:39 | |
because that goes against what I feel about him now, | 0:56:39 | 0:56:42 | |
what I've learned about him. | 0:56:42 | 0:56:43 | |
I think the sad irony is that, | 0:56:46 | 0:56:49 | |
you know, my grandfather took his own life in his 70s. | 0:56:49 | 0:56:53 | |
He looked after so many mentally ill people, | 0:56:53 | 0:56:55 | |
endured so much during the war, but wasn't able to save himself. | 0:56:55 | 0:57:01 | |
Maybe all the trauma he witnessed, | 0:57:03 | 0:57:06 | |
and everybody else's problems were too much for him to bear. | 0:57:06 | 0:57:11 |