02/04/2014 Daily Politics


02/04/2014

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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Westminster's all of a

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quiver at the prospect of Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage going head-to-head.

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Apparently Mr Clegg will become over all - motional on the debate about

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whether Britain should be in or out of the EU. We'll bring you live

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coverage of PMQs. David Cameron and Ed Miliband square up at noon. We've

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asked a famous BBC face to get on his bike and tell us why it's time

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to end the licence fee. The licence fee when it comes up for

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renewal in two years' time will be 90 years old and, as every year goes

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by, it becomes more and more an Akronistic.

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What can possibly go wrong when politicians brief journalists

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off-the-record? We'll look at some that have gone spectacularly wrong.

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We are joined by two MPs who've never ever briefed a journalist over

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lunch or anywhere else. At least that's what they tell the whips when

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they come knocking late at night! It's the Universities and Science

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Minister David Willets and Shadow minister Emily Thornberry. First,

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the sand is being blown in from the sort what radio heading to smog

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forming over parts of the country -- The Sahara. People are told to avoid

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strenuous exercise outside. I intend to follow that. We won't be jogging

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home after the show! What a relief. The dust that's been blowing over

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Britain for the past few days has been leaving a distinctive red mark

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on cars. Even mine and sky lights. Even David Cameron, the Prime

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Minister's car's been affected. Here is a picture of his car in Downing

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Street yesterday. That is going to need a good wash. He'll probably be

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out there with a bucket and sponge after PMQs giving it a clean

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himself. Maybe not. To tell us more, we are joined by BBC Weather

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presenter, Jay Wynne. Welcome to the programme. How can all that fine

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dust make it all the way from The Sahara to here?

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Well, you have to look at the big picture. This satellite sequence

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telles a good story. You can see the curl of cloud to the west of the UK,

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it's the low pressure. To the east, we have an area of high pressure.

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The two have combined to produce southerly breezes coming from a long

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way south. You can see how far this cloud extends. Southerly winds ahead

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of that coming out of central Africa bringing Saharan dust with it. As

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that dust drifts over the north, it interacts with the pollution

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floating around the mainland of Europe, then it makes its way

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towards our shores and interacts with the home-grown pollution so

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it's a triple whammy, our pollution, European pollution then you had on

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The Sahara dust. It's the Saharan dust that's tipped the balance to

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the high levels of pollution really. How unlikely is this triple whammy,

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will we see more of this or is this once, a couple of times every few

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years? This sort of thing does happen and it's not overly unusual

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but I suspect it's early on in the season to see it. This is forecast

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map for pollution levels. The worst is likely to be in East Anglia and

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the East Midlands. Also it's generally that south-eastern

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quadrant which is expecting poor levels of air quality. But the good

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news is that by tomorrow, we are not going to be seeing high levels of

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air pollution, but we are going to tone it down a notch to high levels.

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The area is that little bit smaller. By Friday, as the rain pushes

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through, we are going to clear the air completely and swap the wind and

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we'll see much clearer air pollution.

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Thank you very much. David Willets, people might say, although this is a

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temporary increase in levels of pollution, it's on top of already

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high levels of pollution that exist and that's what we need tackle isn't

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it? We do need to tackle pollution but there is a limit to what any

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Government can do about Saharan sand. I grant you that! The main

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thing we can do in the short run is provide accurate forecasts and what

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you saw from the Met Office was very impressive. Even a few years ago,

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they wouldn't have had the power to give us that kind of accuracy

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forecast. That means they can provide us with information on air

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quality that we, as a Government, will be putting out regularly so

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people can know how the air around them is being affected. How is your

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car, Emily? I cycled in this morning! I cycled in! I felt OK. You

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were told to avoid strength yous exercise. I wondered about driving

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in instead, but I thought, the whole point is that it's about pollution

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and it's not right to respond to it by adding to it in the car. What

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David said was interesting though. What can the Government do, all they

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can do is measure it. I'm not one of those who believe that. I believe

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Government can do things, I believe in Government and I think that, you

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know, I've been passed in Islington we have the A1 and question of law

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some of the worst air pollution -- A1 and we have some of the worst air

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pollution. The pollution's not so bad around the corner yourself know

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in another street where Boris Johnson's measured it. If Government

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doesn't do something about it, nobody is going to. For a Government

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minister to come in and go, we can only measure it, it's disappointing.

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You can't do much about Saharan sand. If you look at what we can do

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about our own home-grown pollution, yes, you can do everything from

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having high quality public transport which we are investing in, and also

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from my responsibilities on science and technology, investing in the

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motor vehicles of the future which are going to have different types of

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engines and be far less polluting an what we've got now. What we've got

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now is far better than what we had 20 years ago. Thank you. Otherwise

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get on your bike, Andrew! The number of foreign students in England has

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fallen for the first time in three decades according to figures out

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today. More stringent visa regulations are being blamed. The

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Government's been under pressure over the student loan book which

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estimates that nearly half of loans will never be repaid. It's

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complicated but Joco is here to explain.

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For the first time in 29 years, last year saw a 1% decline in the total

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number of international students coming to England to study. The fall

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was caused in part by a 50% drop in the number of post-graduates

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students coming from India and Pakistan following tougher

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restrictions of applicants and the restrictions of working after

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graduation. The number of EU students is also down by a quarter,

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that is being blamed on the rise in tuition fees from ?3,400 to ?9,000

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that came into effect in 2012. Last month, the higher tuition fees

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cap came under the spotlight after the Public Accounts Committee said

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that as much as 48% of student loan debts might never be repaid.

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Over the weekend, Labour hinted again that they might cut tuition

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fees to ?6,000 a year and Liam Byrne, their Shadow Universities

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Minister, warns the party or wants the party I should say, to

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eventually to move to a graduates tax.

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Thank you. David willets, the original estimate from the

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Government was that 28 wouldn't repay their loans, is that right? We

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said about 30% in 2010. The latest estimates are now at 45%. Yes. First

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of all, why did you get it wrong? We were operating on the earnings

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forecast provided to us by the office of budget responsibility and

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what we are doing here, is every six months, we are essentially

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forecasting income tax receipts for the next 30 years and the forecasts

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are very sensitive to the assumptions that are fed in about

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earnings retive the ?21,000 repayment threshold. Other countries

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don't engage in this exercise but it will mean... Because they always get

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it wrong? ! No, what you can only do is act on the latest forecasts you

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have about earnings, they'll keep on changing. There'll be times in the

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future when, because of some increases in wages, this figure will

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go down again. I doubt we'll have the same level of attention to it,

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but every six months we'll have a new forecast. I've said clearly to

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sl the Select Committee, they'll continue to change because we are

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forecasting what will happen to receipts in 30 years' time. But at

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45% now, that's the current forecast. Is it true that when you

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reach just over 48% of repayment, you actually get no benefit from the

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increase in tuition fees that you will be repaid less than the money

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you will be getting from the extra tuition fees? If you are giving that

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money to universities in grant, you wouldn't have got anything back, it

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would have been handed over as a cheque. Anything which means you get

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some of the payments - from the graduates, not students - when they

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are earning ?21,000, and some of the estimates ignore the fact that we

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have better funded universities as a result of this. Students gain from

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wiz a better quality education as a result. But no Government would

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consciously set out in a scheme in which you could end up - and you are

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very close to it now - to a 50% default rate. It's ?100 billion?

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Well, it's not quite a default. We have said all along that one of the

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virtues of our scheme is if at any point your earnings are low, ever

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below ?21,000, you don't pay back. That is a deliberate progressive

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foeture so young people don't worry that if they are on low earnings

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they are still hit with the bet, they are not, they don't pay back.

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The dream is progressive beyond Francois Hollande isn't it? ! All

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you have to do is earn ?21,000 now, well below the national average and

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the London and the South East average too. And you face an

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effective marginal rate of tax of 41%. Now, how can a young person on

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a 41% marginal rate of tax on a low Sal ray ever hope to get a mortgage

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as well? Well, it's a, if you are only on ?21,000, you pay it back

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then. Be basic tax rate was 35%. Under Labour's scheme, the repayment

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thresh holds was far lore. They were paying 9% on earnings below ?15,000.

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We have made the monthly repayments less which helps young people get a

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mortgage because the companies look at what your fixed outgoings are. So

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you are sitting here as a Tory minister and saying to me that you

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are perfectly happy with the young person starting out on life earning

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?22,000 a year to face a marginal rate of tax of 41%? If they are

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earning or repaying for the cost of their higher education, 9% of your

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earnings above ?21,000 is affordable. It's lower than

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graduates currently repay. It came through under the Blair system. They

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were paying 9%. So we have lowered their monthly outgoings. That is

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actually a significant price. We did it deliberately to help younger

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people so they would low lower fees and to help them get into the jobs

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market. I don't know if many young people think that. I wonder

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actually, it strikes me that the other side of this is that in 2010

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you were expecting 30% of youngsters to be paying it back, is that right?

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Or not paying it back? Amounts of money we are measuring, not people.

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What is your point? It's this, on a 48% default rate, it means that we

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are having hundreds of thousands of youngsters leaving university who're

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not getting jobs where they can earn more than ?21,000 and that speaks to

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the crisis in terms of the cost-of-living more than anything

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else, it seems to me. It speaks to me about long-term unemployment of

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youngsters. We haven't got much time. I'll not let you filibuster

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the policies. I'm not. What was their policy? Going into the next

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general election we are looking at our options. We don't know how big

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the black hole is that we know that there is in terms of the budget, so

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we need to have a better idea of exactly how much money. So you can't

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tell me this morning any of the parameters of the Labour policy

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even? I'm in favour, Ed Miliband's in favour, many are in favour of the

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idea of a graduate tax. That has always been what we have wanted to

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do, it's a question of what the practical and effective. How big

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would that be? Do you know what, I remember in 2010 being in the

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corridor in Parliament where all the Lib Demes were going along and

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signing a form saying they weren't going to put up fees and they were

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taking the Mickey out of me going, oh, you are not going to sign this,

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and I said because we are a party of Government. Frankly, I don't care

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what happened in 2010. What I'm asking you is what is going to

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happen in 2015, graduate tax, how big? I'm saying we are a party of

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Government and the promises we make we intend to fulfil. You haven't

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promised anything? ? Exactly, because we are looking properly at

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our options. As time goes on, the economic gets worse, the black hole

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gets worse. The economy is getting worse? Yes. In 2010 when they

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announce about 30% defaults, it was at a time when the economy was

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expanding. Then three years of flatlining in terms of the economy,

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so therefore things get worse and worse. What about the economy now?

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Well the economy is getting better in terms of there is some growth.

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Not getting worse? It's the beginning of a heartbeat but it's

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not based on investment or exports, any of the things that you would

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normally expect the economy be based on. As you will understand if you

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haven't got a policy it's hard to ask you any questions about it so

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let's go to Greg Mulholland. How rude can you be, Andrew? ! How can I

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ask you if you don't have a policy? I'm explaining that we are a serious

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party looking at serious promises that we can put into our manifesto

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that makes some sense. We are not going to pluck things out of the air

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the way the Lib Dems have done. You have been in that position for your

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years... When you get a policy I'll ask you questions about it. You

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haven't at the moment so I can't. had stuck to his guns? I think the

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party in government made a mistake in terms of agreeing to what

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happened. The system we have is as David Willetts said extremely

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progressive. Far more than an upfront fee system. I am firmly in

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favour of a graduate tax. The tragedy of the decision made is that

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this perception we have these huge fees when we really do not have fees

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in any sense at all, we have a graduate repayment system that

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triggers when people are earning over a very generous limit. They

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will then pay their money back over 25 years. It is not a fees system.

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Communication was wrong. What difference would it be between

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whether you pay back through the tax system your loan or you pay a

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graduate tax? Fundamental. That is why I will continue arguing strongly

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for a graduate tax. The problem is the system because it is technically

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a loan, a loan based on the fee levels, therefore technically it is

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a debt. As you have said, it has certain issues. If it is a tax, a

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cap tax that can only last the 25 years, that is very different. It

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has no implications for people's borrowing, for their credit rating.

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I think that we are seeing I hope all three parties move to an

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agreement on this and that is what we need. There has been bickering.

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Let us not forget it was Labour who first said they would not introduce

:17:49.:17:53.

top-up fees and did. The Liberal Democrats have not been able to

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fulfil the policy we wanted to stop but we have a fairer system than we

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had before. -- we wanted to. But we have a fairer system. David

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Willetts, I do not understand the difference between a graduate tax

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and repaying my student fees for 25 years. Ella McReddie first

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difference is the amount you are repaying is linked to a payment made

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to your university that you chose -- the first difference is. ?9,000, I

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have chosen to pay it to this university. It means the

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universities have to focus on quality of teaching. The graduate

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tax this appears into the Treasury. There is no guarantee it will get to

:18:47.:18:53.

universities. It only makes sense is different universities are charging

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different amounts. You said, it will be very red, only 13 universities

:18:59.:19:03.

will charge ?9,000. They all do. The idea of shopping around and saving

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money... It doesn't make sense. It is shopping around to choose the

:19:13.:19:15.

universities that that has the best committee teaching and the best

:19:16.:19:21.

outcomes. How worried are you that there are not more students earning

:19:22.:19:28.

over ?21,000? Most do on more than that. The issue will be what happens

:19:29.:19:36.

in the Labour force. I want to see well-paid graduates and diving

:19:37.:19:39.

universities are focusing on that. We will be coming back to both of

:19:40.:19:45.

you on this. Now, you know how it is. You've

:19:46.:19:51.

popped out to lunch or a drink with a journalist after a hard day at

:19:52.:19:55.

work in the Commons. You have a bit of a gossip. Then before you know

:19:56.:19:58.

it, the contents of your conversation are splashed all over a

:19:59.:20:01.

newspaper or a TV network. I thought that was how it worked. Sometimes

:20:02.:20:05.

the politicians mean to do it. But at other times, it all just seems to

:20:06.:20:09.

get a bit out of hand. That may be what happened at the weekend when an

:20:10.:20:12.

unnamed Government minister told a reporter that an independent

:20:13.:20:15.

Scotland might be able to use the pound after all. Here's Giles.

:20:16.:20:24.

At the weekend, and earned named UK minister told the guardian that an

:20:25.:20:28.

independent Scotland could keep the pound. -- an unnamed UK minister.

:20:29.:20:33.

All major parties have joined forces to say they couldn't so it is odd.

:20:34.:20:41.

We do not know who the mole was. On -- Oliver Letwin had to disappear

:20:42.:20:44.

into hiding after it emerged he was the source of a newspaper story

:20:45.:20:48.

saying the Tories had plans beyond the manifesto for ?20 billion of

:20:49.:20:53.

cuts in tax and government spending. When he emerged to fling himself, it

:20:54.:20:59.

got worse. I also set out what William Hague and Michael Portillo

:21:00.:21:06.

has set out. John Major's back to basics speech in 1993. It was

:21:07.:21:12.

intended as a nostalgic appeal to traditional values. The spin Doctor

:21:13.:21:18.

Tim Collins briefed the press that John Major was intent on rolling

:21:19.:21:23.

back the permissive society and then with more of a bang and some

:21:24.:21:27.

whimpers a succession of Conservative ministers were caught

:21:28.:21:31.

up in sex scandals. The Lib Dem leadership contest in 2007 got

:21:32.:21:34.

personal after Chris Huhne was confronted with a document called

:21:35.:21:42.

calamity Nick Clegg on the BBC. He looked extremely uncomfortable as he

:21:43.:21:45.

insisted he had not seen it, authorised it, indeed he had none of

:21:46.:21:51.

his fingerprints all over it. Sometimes just occasionally

:21:52.:21:58.

politicians on up. In 2009, John Hutton admitted he was the Cabinet

:21:59.:22:02.

minister who told the BBC's Nick Robinson in 2006... It would be a

:22:03.:22:10.

disaster if Gordon Brown was PM. I will do anything in my power to stop

:22:11.:22:15.

him. He sensed that his opinion of Mr Brown had changed.

:22:16.:22:24.

Harmony at the top of politics. Everyone is tittering in the studio.

:22:25.:22:29.

David Willetts, have you ever told a journalist something you regret it?

:22:30.:22:34.

I'm sure it has happened. I am not sure I can offer you any good

:22:35.:22:38.

examples. I can tell you how it helps solve a problem. I used to

:22:39.:22:44.

help Margaret Thatcher right some of her speeches. It was a terrible

:22:45.:22:48.

process. It took ages. We got completely stuck. Bernard Ingham

:22:49.:22:53.

comes into the room and says the lobby had been asking about what she

:22:54.:22:58.

was going to say in the next big speech. I thought it might be hell

:22:59.:23:01.

for if I told you what I have told them. He then reported to us what he

:23:02.:23:08.

had briefed and he solved our problem. -- I thought it might be

:23:09.:23:15.

helpful. You think that is the way forward? Who do you think spoke to

:23:16.:23:21.

the Guardian about the currency union debate? The only thing I know

:23:22.:23:26.

is it is clear that if Scotland left the UK there would also be leaving

:23:27.:23:30.

the pound -- they would also be leaving the pound. That is something

:23:31.:23:36.

which all three parties agree on. Interestingly, a journalist from the

:23:37.:23:43.

Sun said on this programme that he was convinced it was Oliver Letwin

:23:44.:23:51.

or Vince Cable. I know nothing about the background to this. The only

:23:52.:23:55.

thing I know and what matters to people in Scotland is that if

:23:56.:23:59.

Scotland were sadly to leave the UK it would not be able to continue to

:24:00.:24:03.

participate in the pound. The pound would be one of the many costs if we

:24:04.:24:08.

were to see Scotland vote for separation. Somebody has said to me

:24:09.:24:13.

not that I want to enter into this debate, that negotiations go on

:24:14.:24:16.

behind-the-scenes and there are politicians who will say things to

:24:17.:24:20.

journalist to get a story out. It is true. People tend to know who they

:24:21.:24:27.

are. They are not trusted. They are not trusted by their colleagues. You

:24:28.:24:33.

have lunches with journalists. I do and I have learnt to be careful.

:24:34.:24:39.

Have you been caught out? I was standing in a marginal seat and all

:24:40.:24:42.

of the newspapers wanted to write a piece which was not good Labour

:24:43.:24:47.

candidate doing well in a Labour marginal. They wanted to run Labour

:24:48.:24:52.

is going to lose as ten. I didn't want to talk to anyone. I would not

:24:53.:24:58.

answer any calls -- lose Islington. I was told I had to bite Number 10.

:24:59.:25:03.

A job was done on me. Horrible things were written about me, my

:25:04.:25:08.

kids. I had not been in politics before and it was a crash course in

:25:09.:25:12.

not trusting journalists. Sweet as you are. Thank you. Sweet? I would

:25:13.:25:23.

not call him sweet! Some politicians get a reputation for leaking. That

:25:24.:25:34.

was why Margaret Thatcher turned to someone in the early days because he

:25:35.:25:37.

had a reputation for speaking too much to the press. Your colleagues

:25:38.:25:44.

briefing about Ed Miliband having a more radical policy, are they not to

:25:45.:25:47.

be trusted? You probably know who they are. I am not saying anything.

:25:48.:25:59.

It is live. There was the wise Enoch Powell advice who said politicians

:26:00.:26:03.

complaining about the media was like sailors complaining about the

:26:04.:26:06.

weather. It is the environment within which you function. You say

:26:07.:26:10.

Scotland cannot have the pound and so does Labour, but if the SNP wins,

:26:11.:26:16.

they will say, you cannot have your nuclear subs in Scotland. That is

:26:17.:26:21.

the makings of a deal. I am not going there. It was not you who did

:26:22.:26:32.

the leaking. George Osborne said this week he wants to achieve full

:26:33.:26:37.

employment in the UK. And you thought that went out of fashion

:26:38.:26:40.

with platform shoes and black and white telly. Well, Ed Miliband has

:26:41.:26:44.

already leapt into action. He's keen to do his bit to help and so he's

:26:45.:26:47.

started advertising for something called a Head of the Leader's

:26:48.:26:50.

Broadcasting. Whoever gets the job will get about ?44,000 a year. Just

:26:51.:26:53.

into the 40% tax bracket. They'll need to have experience of dealing

:26:54.:26:57.

with good and bad news stories. Probably plenty of the latter.

:26:58.:27:00.

Apparently the Labour leader is also looking for someone who can develop

:27:01.:27:03.

fresh ideas to make the best of his brand strengths. If they know some

:27:04.:27:08.

thing about graduate tax, it would properly be an advantage. One area

:27:09.:27:11.

they'll be looking to address is that according to one recent poll

:27:12.:27:15.

81% of people say they can't imagine Ed Miliband as PM. You cruel lot.

:27:16.:27:18.

So, here's a fresh idea for turning that around. Just take a look at

:27:19.:27:22.

this brand leader. He's no mug. He won three elections you know. Here

:27:23.:27:34.

at the Daily Politics we know how to ceramic -- ceramically enhance any

:27:35.:27:37.

image. Just imagine if Ed was standing outside Number 10 holding a

:27:38.:27:44.

Daily Politics mug. There he is. Instant prime ministerial gravitas.

:27:45.:27:47.

And you don't need to pay us ?44,000 a year, Ed. 8-ender will do. -- a

:27:48.:27:56.

tenner. No, we'll give you one for free, but only if you stop preparing

:27:57.:28:00.

for PMQs and enter Guess the Year. We'll remind you how to enter in a

:28:01.:28:04.

minute, but let's see if you can remember when this happened.

:28:05.:28:20.

# When will I be famous? # The only way is up, baby # For you

:28:21.:28:30.

and me now. The Department of Health was and

:28:31.:28:42.

continues to be concerned. # I want you to be my baby # It has got to be

:28:43.:28:50.

perfect. # It has got to be worth it # Too

:28:51.:29:04.

many people take second best... To be in with a chance of winning a

:29:05.:29:08.

Daily Politics mug, send your answer to our special quiz email address.

:29:09.:29:12.

And you can see the full terms and conditions for Guess The Year on our

:29:13.:29:20.

website. It's coming up to midday here. Big Ben is there through the

:29:21.:29:26.

pollution. Prime Minister's Questions in a couple of minutes. If

:29:27.:29:29.

you would like to comment on proceedings, you can e-mail us or

:29:30.:29:38.

tweet your thoughts. We will read some out after PMQs. Nick Robinson

:29:39.:29:44.

is here. As always. Or nearly always. What are they going to argue

:29:45.:29:52.

about today? I said yesterday I thought he would use the phrase

:29:53.:29:55.

about standing up for the wrong people. You had a lively, session

:29:56.:30:00.

about whether Labour has policies. Just one. There is a debate about

:30:01.:30:06.

that. If you are in opposition trying to hold back because it is

:30:07.:30:11.

still a long way until the general election, what you want to do is

:30:12.:30:16.

seize on something that shows money is being spent badly by the

:30:17.:30:20.

government of the day and claim that they are doing it to help their

:30:21.:30:24.

chums in the city and not to help the ordinary guy. It is

:30:25.:30:27.

irresistible. It tells you nothing about what Labour would do in

:30:28.:30:32.

government. It positions them. I would not say that in front of

:30:33.:30:39.

Emily. It is PMQs. It is us asking him questions. I rest my case. I am

:30:40.:30:48.

in a mood today. He got me going. I did not mean it as they criticism.

:30:49.:31:02.

That is what opposition wants to do. That is why it is irresistible. This

:31:03.:31:10.

is quite rare for an opposition to her. They have an independent

:31:11.:31:13.

spending watchdog saying hundreds of millions of pounds the taxpayer

:31:14.:31:17.

could have had they have not got. If you cannot score a goal without

:31:18.:31:21.

help, you never will. Vince Cable got quite a tough time in Parliament

:31:22.:31:27.

earlier this week. It is interesting that David Willetts's boss was

:31:28.:31:32.

dismissive of calls for him to resign.

:31:33.:31:39.

This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others

:31:40.:31:44.

and in addition to my duties in this House, I shall have further such

:31:45.:31:47.

meetings later today. Is the Prime Minister aware that

:31:48.:32:00.

3956 people are in the rented sector. Two thirds feel insecure,

:32:01.:32:04.

half think they pay far too much in rent. Does he not think it's time to

:32:05.:32:09.

end the social cleansing of inner city Britain by bringing in proper

:32:10.:32:14.

rent regulation with a fair rent formula and total regulation of the

:32:15.:32:19.

private rented sector to give people security and peace of mind where

:32:20.:32:26.

they live? Where I'm sure we'd agree is that there is a need to build

:32:27.:32:31.

more houses, including those in the private rented sector. Where I think

:32:32.:32:35.

he's wrong is full-on rent controls have been tried in the past and it's

:32:36.:32:39.

tended to destroy the private rented sector, drive everyone back to the

:32:40.:32:42.

state sector and reduce the quality of housing as a result.

:32:43.:32:48.

In the week when our Right Honourable friend, the Chancellor of

:32:49.:32:52.

the Exchequer has spoken of the importance to the Government of

:32:53.:32:57.

securing full employment, can my right honourable friend confirm that

:32:58.:33:02.

the record shows that no Labour Government in history left office

:33:03.:33:07.

with unemployment lower than when he came to office?

:33:08.:33:13.

Does this not illustrate in this area, as in all others, the

:33:14.:33:17.

importance of the principle that what matters is what works?

:33:18.:33:23.

My right honourable friend is factually correct. Every Labour

:33:24.:33:27.

Government's left office with unemployment higher than when it

:33:28.:33:31.

came to office. In this Parliament, what we've seen

:33:32.:33:36.

is 1.7 million more people employed in the private sector, 1.3 million

:33:37.:33:43.

more people employed as a whole, one of the highest rates of employment

:33:44.:33:47.

in history and we'll keep up the work to offer more hope and security

:33:48.:33:48.

to our people. Mr Speaker, can the Prime Minister

:33:49.:34:03.

tell the House what is his excuse for the Royal Mail fiasco?

:34:04.:34:09.

What I would say about the Royal Mail is that taxpayers benefitted

:34:10.:34:15.

from selling the business for ?2 billion. That, of course, is ?2

:34:16.:34:20.

billion that the party opposite never achieved because they were

:34:21.:34:25.

never able to sell the business. Mr Speaker, here is what his own

:34:26.:34:28.

side are saying about this issue. The member for Northampton South

:34:29.:34:34.

said yesterday it was a debacle, unethical and immoral. He sold the

:34:35.:34:42.

shares for ?330p, what are they trading at snout They are trading

:34:43.:34:46.

ahead of where they were sold, but the fact is this - when the Right

:34:47.:34:55.

Honourable gentleman... THE SPEAKER: Order. Neither the

:34:56.:34:59.

Prime Minister nor the Leader of the Opposition nor any other member in

:35:00.:35:02.

this House must be shouted down. It's not on. The Prime Minister.

:35:03.:35:07.

When the Right Honourable gentleman was sitting in the Cabinet, this

:35:08.:35:18.

business lost half a be. It's in the private sector, making taxes and

:35:19.:35:22.

working hard for our country -- half a billion pounds. There are over

:35:23.:35:26.

140,000 people, more to the point, who work for the Post Office,

:35:27.:35:30.

delivering letters, delivering parcels, who own shares in the

:35:31.:35:35.

business that they work for. They've got a stake in the future of

:35:36.:35:39.

the Royal Mail. They are collecting dividends, as well as pay. And

:35:40.:35:42.

that's something we should all be proud of.

:35:43.:35:47.

Mr Speaker, he can't answer the question because it's such an

:35:48.:35:54.

embarrassment. He sold at 330p and this morning the price was 563p.

:35:55.:36:06.

It's basic maths, Mr Speaker. Not so much the walrus of Wall Street, but

:36:07.:36:11.

the Dunce of Downing Street. Let me ask him this, if Royal Mail was sold

:36:12.:36:16.

at today's price, how much more would the taxpayer have paid? I will

:36:17.:36:23.

take a lecture from almost anyone in the country about the sale of Royal

:36:24.:36:30.

Mail, but not from the two muppets who advised the Chancellor on

:36:31.:36:35.

selling last time. There they sit, not a word of apology, ?9 billion

:36:36.:36:41.

wasted. The Royal Mail privatisation's got ?2 billion for

:36:42.:36:48.

the taxpayer, 140,000 employees owning shares, 700,000 members of

:36:49.:36:51.

the lick who're now shareholders. This is a great success for our

:36:52.:36:56.

country and something he should be praising.

:36:57.:37:00.

Mr Speaker, again, he can't answer the question. The answer is, the

:37:01.:37:08.

taxpayer would have got ?1.4 billion less for this valuable asset for

:37:09.:37:14.

what it's worth today. Here is the thing, Mr Speaker.

:37:15.:37:16.

THE SPEAKER: Order, when the Prime Minister was speaking, I said he

:37:17.:37:20.

should. Shouted down and nuclear should anybody else. However hard

:37:21.:37:23.

the effort is made to shout someone down, it won't work because we'll

:37:24.:37:28.

just keep going. So the sooner the juveniles can grow up and reach

:37:29.:37:32.

adulthood, so much the better! Ed Miliband!

:37:33.:37:36.

Here is the thing, Mr Speaker. A third of the shares were sold to

:37:37.:37:42.

just 16 City investors. And get this. There was a gentleman's

:37:43.:37:46.

agreement that those City investors wouldn't sell the shares. What

:37:47.:37:50.

happened? Within weeks, half of the shares had been sold and they made a

:37:51.:37:55.

killing worth hundreds of millions of pounds. In other words, mates

:37:56.:38:01.

rates to his friends in the City. Maybe he can tell us what happened

:38:02.:38:05.

to that gentleman's agreement about those shares?

:38:06.:38:10.

Mr Speaker, we know why he's asking this question. Because he's paid to

:38:11.:38:17.

by the Trade Unions. Pf Yes, yes. Mr Speaker, he sat in the

:38:18.:38:25.

Cabinet that wanted to privatise the Royal Mail. That was their

:38:26.:38:29.

commitment. And what happened was the General Secretary of the

:38:30.:38:33.

Communications Workers' Union said this; in terms of the last Labour

:38:34.:38:38.

Government, they tried to privatise the Royal Mail. It was the unions

:38:39.:38:42.

that brought the Government to its senses.

:38:43.:38:45.

Once again, they were weak in Government because they couldn't

:38:46.:38:48.

carry out their policies. They're weak in opposition because they

:38:49.:38:52.

don't support shareholding by post workers in the Royal Mail. They are

:38:53.:38:56.

weak because they've got no economic policy and they are weak because

:38:57.:39:04.

they have got no plan. He's flogged it off to his friends

:39:05.:39:08.

in the City and he can't answer the question. Now I'm going to ask him

:39:09.:39:12.

the question again. There was a gentleman's agreement that these

:39:13.:39:16.

long-term investors, so-called, would not sell their shares. But

:39:17.:39:22.

half of them were sold and hundreds of millions of pounds were made.

:39:23.:39:25.

What happened to that agreement, Stance question? What happened is

:39:26.:39:30.

that the taxpayer is ?2 billion better off, yes. Anyone who's sold

:39:31.:39:37.

shares has missed out on what is a successful business. The truth is

:39:38.:39:39.

this, Mr Speaker. He sat in a Cabinet that wanted to privatise the

:39:40.:39:43.

Royal Mail, they couldn't do it. THE SPEAKER: Order. Lets's hear the

:39:44.:39:46.

answer. Prime Minister? They couldn't do it because the

:39:47.:39:51.

Trade Unions won't let them. There are now 140,000 shareholders working

:39:52.:39:58.

for the Royal Mail. There are almost three quarters of a million members

:39:59.:40:02.

of the public with shares. These are signs for celebration in our

:40:03.:40:05.

country, not talking them down because they are anti-market,

:40:06.:40:08.

anticompetitive and antibusiness. Nothing's changed in the Labour

:40:09.:40:11.

Party. No wonder they've advertised this week for someone to bring some

:40:12.:40:16.

fresh ideas to the leadership. Yes. I've got the commercial here. You

:40:17.:40:25.

should have the ability to manage the different teams across the

:40:26.:40:29.

Labour Party. I think that must be the hardest job

:40:30.:40:33.

in Britain. No wonder they are looking for a

:40:34.:40:37.

change because there's a leader there who hasn't got a clue.

:40:38.:40:43.

Mr Speaker, he's gone as red as a post box and that's because he knows

:40:44.:40:49.

that he's lost ?1.4 billion for the taxpayer. This is a sale nobody

:40:50.:40:54.

wanted and nobody voted for, a national asset sold at a knockdown

:40:55.:40:59.

price to make a fortune for the few. It's a symbol of a Government who

:41:00.:41:03.

stands up for the wrong people with the British people paying the price.

:41:04.:41:09.

Mr Speaker, it's a sale nobody wanted he said. It was in his

:41:10.:41:18.

manifesto. It was a commitment of the last Government. They are

:41:19.:41:23.

shaking their heads. They worked so hard, Mr Speaker, they failed to do

:41:24.:41:28.

it, but this coalition Government privatised the Royal Mail, created

:41:29.:41:33.

thousands of new shareholders, they have a great business working for

:41:34.:41:36.

Britain and we've seen it all from Labour this week. They are

:41:37.:41:40.

advertising for fresh ideas, people around him are fighting like ferrets

:41:41.:41:46.

in the sack. Their top advise, get this Mr Speaker, their top adviser

:41:47.:41:50.

is called Arnie and he's gone to America. But unlike Arnie, he said

:41:51.:41:55.

"I'm not coming back". They are warring, they are weak and they

:41:56.:42:02.

haven't got a plan. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

:42:03.:42:05.

It's as quick to go 225 miles of land and sea from here to Brussels

:42:06.:42:10.

as it is on the train to Norwich, half the distance. Will my right

:42:11.:42:14.

honourable friend agree with me that East Anglia needs investment in

:42:15.:42:17.

better, faster rail infrastructure and that the Norwich task will bring

:42:18.:42:23.

the benefits to businesses and passengers in Norfolk, Suffolk and

:42:24.:42:28.

Essex? I pay tribute to the holt and others for the work they are doing

:42:29.:42:32.

on the Norwich Task Force. This is a very important project. I welcome

:42:33.:42:35.

the interest shown by business leaders, local authorities and

:42:36.:42:38.

enterprise partnerships. East Anglia is one of the fastest growing parts

:42:39.:42:42.

of the UK, with world class companies and universities, better

:42:43.:42:44.

transport will support and bolster this growth and I look forward to

:42:45.:42:47.

the Task Force report that I know that she is working on and I hope

:42:48.:42:51.

this will be used to shape the specification for the long rail

:42:52.:42:56.

franchise that should start in 2016. Mr Speaker, 35 years ago, the SNP

:42:57.:43:01.

and the Tories united to bring down the Labour Government and bring in

:43:02.:43:11.

Margaret Thatcher. Note Mr Speaker, there's noise from two sides on this

:43:12.:43:16.

one. Today, the SNP and the Tories are united on the side of tax cuts

:43:17.:43:20.

for big business. United on the side of the energy companies and united

:43:21.:43:25.

against a 50p tax. Doesn't this demonstrate, Prime Minister, that

:43:26.:43:28.

what people across the UK need is not a separation between Scotland

:43:29.:43:33.

and England but liberation from right-wing Tory economics?

:43:34.:43:38.

He has provided I think Mr Speaker, a very useful public service which

:43:39.:43:41.

he has reminded me of one useful thing that the SNP have done in

:43:42.:43:44.

their history which was to get rid of that dreadful Labour Government

:43:45.:43:50.

that nationalised half of British industry made such a mess. Where I

:43:51.:43:54.

don't agree with him. I agree with him on one very important thing. In

:43:55.:43:58.

spite of his views, I do agree that the United Kingdom is much better

:43:59.:44:01.

off together. But one of the issues he raised I think is completely

:44:02.:44:05.

wrong. This is the week that we have cut corporation tax to 21%. That is

:44:06.:44:09.

going to attract businesses into England, into Wales, into Scotland,

:44:10.:44:13.

into Northern Ireland. He should be standing up and praising this tax

:44:14.:44:18.

reduce cut in Government rather than criticising it. The planning

:44:19.:44:22.

inspector recently told a closed meeting in Gloucestershire that he'd

:44:23.:44:26.

give more weight to consultants economic models than to "10,000

:44:27.:44:31.

objections from local people". Is that what the national planning

:44:32.:44:35.

frame work meant by empowering local people?

:44:36.:44:39.

The national planning framework is very clear about the importance of

:44:40.:44:43.

listening to local people in terms of development and my right

:44:44.:44:46.

honourable friend would have received a letter recently to

:44:47.:44:49.

explain some of the changes in the guidance under the framework to make

:44:50.:44:53.

sure, for instance, that previous housing performance by local

:44:54.:44:57.

councils is taken into account and in his very important decisions.

:44:58.:45:02.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. At a time of unpress dented crisis, the Prime

:45:03.:45:05.

Minister saw at first hand just how good the west Cumberland Hospital in

:45:06.:45:10.

my constituency can be. Six years into the rebuilding programme, the

:45:11.:45:13.

hospital's been plunged into crisis. It's been starved of staff and faces

:45:14.:45:16.

being stripped of key clinical services. The nearest hospital isn't

:45:17.:45:20.

just down the road, it's 42 miles away in Carlisle. That too is

:45:21.:45:23.

struggling. Will the Prime Minister commit today

:45:24.:45:27.

to do everything he can to assist me, local clinicians and my

:45:28.:45:31.

community in retaining consultant-led services in the west

:45:32.:45:35.

Cumberland Hospital? I saw for myself what an excellent job the

:45:36.:45:38.

hospital does and how important it is. What I would say is that, of

:45:39.:45:43.

course, the Clinical Commissioning Group total revenues that are

:45:44.:45:47.

available this year has an increase of 2.3%, ?636 million, because this

:45:48.:45:52.

Government decided to protect NHS spending and not cut NHS spending

:45:53.:45:55.

and that is why important hospital developments can go ahead.

:45:56.:46:04.

Can the right honourable friend tell the house what steps the government

:46:05.:46:10.

is taking to support entrepreneurs becoming employers? He is right. We

:46:11.:46:18.

need to make it easier for someone to take on their first employee and

:46:19.:46:21.

that is why this Saturday we are bringing in the ?2000 employment

:46:22.:46:28.

allowance which means every business that employs someone will see a tax

:46:29.:46:35.

reduction of up to ?2000. It means 55,000 businesses will be taken out

:46:36.:46:39.

of paying National Insurance contributions altogether. The party

:46:40.:46:42.

opposite introduced jobs taxes, we are cutting them. At the weekend, a

:46:43.:46:50.

general warned that reducing the regular army to 82000 x 2020 would

:46:51.:46:57.

weaken the Armed Forces and was a risk to take. Could be promised at

:46:58.:47:04.

LB housewife he thinks it is not one hell of a risk? -- could the Prime

:47:05.:47:09.

Minister tell the house why he thinks it is not one hell of a risk

:47:10.:47:17.

# I have been out to Afghanistan every year since 2006 and I was

:47:18.:47:24.

asked the same question. Do you have the equipment you need? Is there

:47:25.:47:29.

anything you want? We have seen real improvements in equipment. Yes, we

:47:30.:47:38.

will have an army of 82,000. We have will have larger reserve forces and

:47:39.:47:42.

we will have Armed Forces and defence equipment that this country

:47:43.:47:48.

can be very proud of. Following last week's excellent news of the Siemens

:47:49.:47:56.

development in Hull, it is vital we move quickly with projects planned

:47:57.:48:00.

for the Southbank of the Humber. All parties must work together to make

:48:01.:48:06.

sure it becomes the green energy capital of the UK. I absolutely

:48:07.:48:11.

agree. The announcement is a huge step forward because I think it is

:48:12.:48:13.

going to bring an enormous amount of industry with it in terms of supply

:48:14.:48:19.

and component manufacturing. We need to make sure the colleges are

:48:20.:48:25.

training up apprentices and working to attract businesses to the area.

:48:26.:48:29.

There are still agreements needed in other parts of Humberside to make

:48:30.:48:32.

sure all of the developments go ahead. The Prime Minister will know

:48:33.:48:38.

millions of people across the country value and love their Post

:48:39.:48:44.

Office account, particularly those who do not have access to banks.

:48:45.:48:49.

They want to get their cash each week. This is being renegotiated

:48:50.:48:54.

with the DWP. Will he give a commitment that whatever happens,

:48:55.:48:59.

pensioners and everyone on benefits or otherwise, they will be able to

:49:00.:49:03.

access through the Post Office to get the money that they need? I will

:49:04.:49:10.

look carefully at what she says. It is important for people to be able

:49:11.:49:14.

to use the Post Office in that way. There have been changes in the way

:49:15.:49:19.

the account works. I will look very closely at what she says and perhaps

:49:20.:49:26.

write to her. Would my right honourable friend accept that on

:49:27.:49:30.

this 100th anniversary of the First World War the Territorial Army won

:49:31.:49:38.

71 Victoria crosses and thousands of other decorations and that by

:49:39.:49:43.

learning the lessons of our English speaking cousins in America and the

:49:44.:49:46.

pivotal role in the National Guard has played in Iraq and Afghanistan

:49:47.:49:50.

that is the way to ensure we can afford the equipment we need for our

:49:51.:49:56.

armed Forces for the future? Let me pay tribute to my honourable friend

:49:57.:50:00.

who has campaigned long and hard for the Territorial Army and the other

:50:01.:50:04.

reserve forces. The point he makes is good. In Afghanistan today, you

:50:05.:50:07.

can see the Territorial Army working alongside the regular army, fighting

:50:08.:50:13.

with them and being decorated with them in the brave actions they have

:50:14.:50:16.

pursued. Other countries have shown it is possible to have a large

:50:17.:50:21.

reserve force alongside the regular force and that is the way to have a

:50:22.:50:24.

well-equipped and flexible army and navy and air force. The Lanzarote

:50:25.:50:31.

convection sets a European wide standard for the protection of

:50:32.:50:35.

children against sexual exploitation. The UK have signed it

:50:36.:50:40.

but have not yet ratified it. Following recent episodes of

:50:41.:50:44.

grooming in the UK included in my borough of Rochdale, will be

:50:45.:50:46.

government now consider ratifying this very important convention? I

:50:47.:50:54.

absolutely agree with him that child sexual exportation is an abhorrent

:50:55.:50:58.

crime. We have seen some extremely disturbing cases and not just in

:50:59.:51:03.

Rochdale, but also in the county I represent of oxygen. I understand

:51:04.:51:07.

there is a small amount of further assessment to be done before the UK

:51:08.:51:10.

is in a position to ratify the convection. -- the convention. Does

:51:11.:51:16.

he agree with me that the doubling of capital allowances to half ?1

:51:17.:51:25.

million provides a welcome boost to manufacturers will increase

:51:26.:51:30.

investment in the sector, securing more jobs for British people? --

:51:31.:51:39.

?500,000. This is a key part of our long-term economic plan. One of the

:51:40.:51:43.

remarkable things about the budget was the ways it said we would

:51:44.:51:48.

address some of the perennial weaknesses in the British economy.

:51:49.:51:52.

We need to export more. We need to invest more. We need to improve our

:51:53.:51:56.

performance in those regards and ensure the investment is spread

:51:57.:52:00.

around the country. Unlike the party opposite, we will not be satisfied

:52:01.:52:06.

with an unbalanced recovery. Today the Ford motor company agreed in

:52:07.:52:10.

multi-million pound contribution towards a pension fund, for former

:52:11.:52:17.

Ford employees. Will the Prime Minister Erdogan congratulate the

:52:18.:52:22.

Unite union alongside a cross-party group of MPs... -- will the Prime

:52:23.:52:31.

Minister congratulate. They have agreed to commit to other pensioners

:52:32.:52:41.

who faced the same plight. I did not catch the end of his question. This

:52:42.:52:45.

is a good development for all of those who played a role. There are

:52:46.:52:48.

colleagues on all sides of the house who have been involved. They are to

:52:49.:52:52.

be credited for the work they have done to make sure we get justice. I

:52:53.:52:57.

welcome the government's intervention on fuel bills, many

:52:58.:53:02.

rural people do not benefit from mains gas and depend on more

:53:03.:53:06.

expensive fuels. We'll the government investigate a way in

:53:07.:53:09.

which they can benefit these off grid customers who often live in

:53:10.:53:18.

fuel poverty? -- will be government. He raises an important point. There

:53:19.:53:22.

are things we can do, not least in encouraging the power of group

:53:23.:53:25.

purchasing buying Courage in communities to come together and buy

:53:26.:53:30.

oil and gas together to drive down prices. I am sure he will be looking

:53:31.:53:35.

at options available. Three months ago I asked the Prime Minister

:53:36.:53:43.

Erdogan his ?1000 tax which anyone joining the police has to play -- I

:53:44.:53:47.

asked the Prime Minister about his ?1000 tax. ?1000 might not be much

:53:48.:53:54.

to him but it is having a huge impact on forces like the Met who at

:53:55.:54:01.

2000 officers Strand and finding it impossible to recruit. We all know

:54:02.:54:06.

the tax is wrong. Order. This question will be heard. Braying and

:54:07.:54:12.

sneering and making rude remarks is the sort of thing the public

:54:13.:54:17.

despise. The honourable lady will be heard and the persons sneering all

:54:18.:54:26.

to be ashamed of themselves. This is an important issue to everyone in

:54:27.:54:31.

the country. We know the tax is wrong. Will the Prime Minister now

:54:32.:54:36.

accept it is not working and abolish it in order that our police get back

:54:37.:54:42.

to strength to defend the people? First of all, it is not a tax.

:54:43.:54:47.

Secondly, it is not a barrier to recruitment. Thirdly, recruitment is

:54:48.:54:51.

taking place in the Met Police. Yes, we have seen police reductions in

:54:52.:54:58.

funding. We have also seen significant cuts in crime. The Met

:54:59.:55:03.

Police are confident they will get good recruits. Bringing superfast

:55:04.:55:10.

broadband to rural areas is vitally important and be governing is

:55:11.:55:13.

rightly spending over ?1 billion on this. My constituents are very

:55:14.:55:18.

frustrated that BT cannot tell them when or if their home will be

:55:19.:55:23.

connected. It makes alternative planning impossible. Will be Prime

:55:24.:55:27.

Minister tell BT to provide clear plans for the billions of taxpayer

:55:28.:55:33.

money they are getting? I have had this discussion with BT and I am

:55:34.:55:36.

happy to hold it again. I know my honourable friend will take up this

:55:37.:55:40.

specific point which is we have asked BT to give more detail about

:55:41.:55:43.

which homes and areas will get a broadband in their roll-out plan so

:55:44.:55:50.

other companies and organisations are able to see whether there are

:55:51.:55:54.

different ways of filling in gaps. I do not agree with some who think BT

:55:55.:55:58.

have not been putting their shoulder to the ground. This is a real

:55:59.:56:08.

success story for our country. As a Royal Mail share price remains about

:56:09.:56:14.

70% above the flotation price, canny Prime Minister now rule out playing

:56:15.:56:21.

a ?4 million bonus from taxpayers money to its government adviser?

:56:22.:56:25.

What I would say to the honourable lady is that the taxpayer is ?2

:56:26.:56:32.

billion better off because we were able to put this business into the

:56:33.:56:36.

private sector whereas previous governments failed dismally. Mr

:56:37.:56:44.

Speaker, my constituent is seeking the right to be treated by the

:56:45.:56:50.

English run NHS, will be Prime Minister investigate what can be

:56:51.:56:54.

done to help her and other NHS refugees who are seeking higher

:56:55.:56:58.

standards which are being delivered by this covenant? -- by this

:56:59.:57:06.

government? Frankly, what is happening in our NHS in Wales is a

:57:07.:57:10.

scandal and it is a scandal that is entirely the responsibility of the

:57:11.:57:13.

Labour Party running the Welsh Assembly government. They made the

:57:14.:57:18.

decision to cut NHS spending by 8% in Wales. They have not met and A

:57:19.:57:29.

target since 2009. I do not know why the Leader of the Opposition is

:57:30.:57:34.

laughing. It is not funny. If he had any gumption, any backbone, he would

:57:35.:57:39.

get hold of the First Minister and tell him to start investing in the

:57:40.:57:47.

NHS in Wales. 25 years ago yesterday, poll tax was imposed on

:57:48.:57:55.

the people of Scotland. A Prime Minister was kicked out of office by

:57:56.:58:01.

her own party. Will the Prime Minister take this opportunity to

:58:02.:58:08.

apologise for that imposition? I did not here the beginning of the

:58:09.:58:14.

question. 25 years ago yesterday, they hated poll tax was imposed on

:58:15.:58:20.

the people of Scotland. It ended with a Prime Minister being kicked

:58:21.:58:24.

out by her own party. We'll be Prime Minister take this opportunity to

:58:25.:58:31.

apologise for that? I have made clear my view over this issue many

:58:32.:58:37.

times. Council tax is a much better replacement. The key is to keep

:58:38.:58:40.

levels down. That is why we support a freeze. In 2012, 150,000 people

:58:41.:58:48.

petitioned this has two stop charitable air ambulances having to

:58:49.:58:54.

pay VAT on fuel. Can I thank the Prime Minister for his budget which

:58:55.:59:00.

means more lives are saved? Does he agree that this is only possible

:59:01.:59:05.

because we are using the libel fines for good purposes and because we

:59:06.:59:13.

have a good plan? -- Libor. He is right. He is the founder and chair

:59:14.:59:18.

of the all-party group for air ambulances. He led a debate in the

:59:19.:59:22.

house in 2012. I am delighted about the result achieved in the budget. I

:59:23.:59:26.

think it will lead to an expansion of the service. He is also right

:59:27.:59:30.

that you can only make these decisions if you look after the

:59:31.:59:34.

nation's resources, get the deficit down. In short, if you have a

:59:35.:59:40.

long-term economic plan. Why has it taken four years to recruit just 41

:59:41.:59:49.

teachers into the ?10 million troops to teachers programme? We support

:59:50.:59:56.

the programme. I will look carefully at what the honourable gentleman

:59:57.:00:00.

says. It is a good idea, a good proposal. I want to make sure it is

:00:01.:00:05.

working. It appears on my council tax bill that the Labour led

:00:06.:00:11.

Lancashire county council and the Labour led Lancaster district

:00:12.:00:14.

Council have raised the council tax by 2%. Very shocking. Would the

:00:15.:00:20.

Prime Minister help the in finding out if it is 2% and help me sort

:00:21.:00:29.

this matter up? What I would say is that he can say to the county

:00:30.:00:34.

council and district Council is that this government is making the money

:00:35.:00:39.

available so that councils can freeze the council tax. There is no

:00:40.:00:43.

use for those who want to take the step. The council tax should be

:00:44.:00:52.

frozen. The high school in my constituency was left ever stated

:00:53.:01:01.

just before Christmas with a 14 AIDS people dying plane football -- with

:01:02.:01:07.

a 14-year-old boy died. Yesterday, a girl died when a wall tragically

:01:08.:01:13.

fell on her. I'm sure the Prime Minister would wish to send

:01:14.:01:17.

condolences to her friends, teachers and family. I think the whole house

:01:18.:01:24.

would agree with what the honourable gentleman said. This was a shocking

:01:25.:01:28.

accident. Their hearts will go out to the family and all of those

:01:29.:01:31.

involved in the school. The lessons will have to be learnt to make sure

:01:32.:01:34.

that tragic accidents like this cannot happen again. The

:01:35.:01:41.

Chancellor's cut in beer duty is great news for Britain's brewers. It

:01:42.:01:49.

will allow them to invest but it will do nothing to help the 20,000

:01:50.:01:54.

pubs tied to large companies. He has got rid of the fuel duty escalator,

:01:55.:01:59.

the beer duty escalator. Will he now tackled the pub company problem? Can

:02:00.:02:08.

I thank him for what he said about the cut in beer duty? This is about

:02:09.:02:14.

making sure the industry creates jobs and supports the pub trade. A

:02:15.:02:18.

company straight after the budget announced 3000 jobs. We want to look

:02:19.:02:23.

very carefully about what is happening in tied pubs and the

:02:24.:02:28.

activities of some companies. We are looking very closely to make sure

:02:29.:02:36.

there are fairer outcomes for Britain's publicans and pub goers.

:02:37.:02:41.

Could I ask the prime and is to what plans he has to reform higher

:02:42.:02:46.

education fees and loans so that the system works for students, all

:02:47.:02:49.

universities and also for the country? -- could I ask the Prime

:02:50.:02:56.

Minister. We are going to expand the number of people going to higher

:02:57.:02:59.

education by taking off the cap who can attend. Our plans are clearly

:03:00.:03:05.

set out and what I say to the house is it is encouraging that it has not

:03:06.:03:10.

put off people from going to university, nor has it but of people

:03:11.:03:17.

from low-income backgrounds. Someone said in June, 2010, this. A graduate

:03:18.:03:24.

tax would replace upfront tuition fees. I will consult widely before

:03:25.:03:28.

publishing detailed plans later this year. That was the Leader of the

:03:29.:03:33.

Opposition in June, 2010. I know we are dealing with a blank page and an

:03:34.:03:42.

empty head, but get on with it. Would the Prime Minister agree it is

:03:43.:03:45.

the skills enterprise and sheer hard work of all of the staff at

:03:46.:03:50.

companies in conjunction with the long-term economic plan that is

:03:51.:03:55.

driving the economy forward? A company has created 200 full-time

:03:56.:03:59.

jobs last year and another 75 this year and it has exported naan bread

:04:00.:04:08.

to India. It makes Dunstable B Crump at capital of the UK. Very good. I

:04:09.:04:14.

am delighted Dunstable is taking on the label. -- it makes Dunstable the

:04:15.:04:24.

crumpet capital of the UK. We have got the employment allowance

:04:25.:04:29.

to make small businesses stronger. We have 3 million people who will

:04:30.:04:34.

have been taken out of income tax altogether. That is what is

:04:35.:04:38.

happening. Our economy is getting stronger and everyone can see

:04:39.:04:42.

Labour's arguments are getting weaker all of the time. Order.

:04:43.:05:04.

The clash was entirely over the post office between the two

:05:05.:05:09.

frontbenchers, and whether the privatisation of it, was it right in

:05:10.:05:14.

principle but, more important for Mr Miliband at the moment, was it done

:05:15.:05:18.

in a way that maximises benefits to the taxpayers, as opposed to a

:05:19.:05:22.

handful of people in the city? I want to come straight to David

:05:23.:05:29.

Willetts. Is the Prime Minister sure that privatisation was in the 2010

:05:30.:05:34.

Labour manifesto? I don't know exactly which manifested it was in,

:05:35.:05:39.

but we know that labour for years wanted to do this. Peter Mandelson

:05:40.:05:44.

famously worked very hard... Let me tell you what the 2005 Labour

:05:45.:05:49.

manifesto said. We have given Royal Mail greater commercial freedom and

:05:50.:05:54.

have no plans to privatise it. So we accept it wasn't in that manifesto.

:05:55.:06:00.

Labour wanted to do this. Though, the Prime Minister said it was in

:06:01.:06:04.

the Labour manifesto. He then said the 2010, we have agreed it was not

:06:05.:06:10.

in the 2005 manifesto. In 2010 manifesto Labour said, Royal Mail

:06:11.:06:14.

and its staff are taking welcome steps to modernise working practices

:06:15.:06:17.

for the future, continuing modernisation and investment will be

:06:18.:06:21.

needed by Royal Mail in the public sector. I say again, in the public

:06:22.:06:26.

sector. That's the only reference to the Royal Mail in the 2010

:06:27.:06:31.

manifesto. Can we accept that privatisation was not in the

:06:32.:06:35.

manifesto? What happened was Labour wanted to do it and then, because of

:06:36.:06:39.

the pressure from the union supporters, they weren't able to do

:06:40.:06:44.

it. If you look at the debate, which was well reported at the time, you

:06:45.:06:47.

will find prominent Labour ministers, I certainly remember

:06:48.:06:51.

Peter Mandelson, saying they wished to do it. That may be the case but

:06:52.:06:56.

that's not what I'm asking you. Can we accept that when the Prime

:06:57.:06:58.

Minister said it was in the Labour manifesto, it was not. I will have

:06:59.:07:07.

to go and check. We've just giving you the evidence. What the Prime

:07:08.:07:11.

Minister is correctly remembering is Labour wanted to do it and went able

:07:12.:07:16.

to do it, partly because of the trade unions. All parties have been

:07:17.:07:21.

wrestling for years... Lots of MPs, including myself, said don't

:07:22.:07:24.

privatise the Royal Mail. He finally listened. We changed his mind. We

:07:25.:07:29.

had a debate within the Labour Party. We had it behind closed

:07:30.:07:38.

doors. There was a massive Labour rebellion! He was the Business

:07:39.:07:43.

Secretary at the time. But he also has to listen to Labour MPs. We told

:07:44.:07:47.

him it was the wrong thing to do. What he had to do is bailout the

:07:48.:07:52.

pension fund, that was his obligation. Frankly, it was better

:07:53.:07:55.

to have a publicly owned and the public wanted it, too. I think we've

:07:56.:08:01.

established there was no clear commitment to privatisation in

:08:02.:08:04.

either of the two manifestos. However, the use of the word

:08:05.:08:13.

investment in the 2010 manifesto was widely taken, including by Peter

:08:14.:08:14.

Mandelson, to mean part privatisation. Peter Mandelson

:08:15.:08:17.

himself said that Royal Mail part privatisation, quote, is the only

:08:18.:08:22.

credible option. So that is where the word investment was meant. It's

:08:23.:08:26.

not an explicit commitment in the 2010 manifesto, but the use of the

:08:27.:08:30.

word investment was what Peter Mandelson meant by part

:08:31.:08:36.

privatisation. By 2010, Peter Mandelson had not as much influence

:08:37.:08:40.

as he had before. There was a new generation taking over the Labour

:08:41.:08:43.

Party. We were against the idea of Royal Mail being privatised. We have

:08:44.:08:48.

had clear opposition to the privatisation of Royal Mail. The

:08:49.:08:52.

Government was wrong to privatise it. The underlying issue is how you

:08:53.:08:57.

deliver a -- and efficient service with six-day delivery with proper

:08:58.:09:02.

access to investment. The issue was how you have a high-quality Royal

:09:03.:09:06.

Mail, and I think we are achieving that. Let me ask you a question

:09:07.:09:09.

which the Prime Minister was asked twice and didn't answer on either

:09:10.:09:14.

occasion. There were about 16 investors who were actually given

:09:15.:09:18.

preferential positioning on buying of the shares, on the basis that

:09:19.:09:26.

they would hold onto the shares. And yet 50% of them sold very quickly.

:09:27.:09:33.

What happened to that agreement? I don't know what this so called

:09:34.:09:38.

gentleman 's agreement is. It is in the report that came out this week.

:09:39.:09:41.

They were given preferential position on the privatisation on the

:09:42.:09:45.

understanding they would hold onto the shares. In fact, they quickly

:09:46.:09:50.

moved and sold at a profit. We will be considering the report and

:09:51.:09:54.

replying to it. The report makes clear that looking back now is

:09:55.:09:57.

different from the decision to have to take at the time. At the time

:09:58.:10:01.

there was risk, which the report recognises, if we'd gone too high a

:10:02.:10:06.

price, the sale could have collapsed. Can I tell you what the

:10:07.:10:12.

report... You had an agreement in advance... Can I tell you what the

:10:13.:10:17.

report says? 16 of the 17 priority investors bought shares and were

:10:18.:10:20.

allocated larger proportions of their other investor, other orders

:10:21.:10:27.

than other investors, reflecting the department's expectation that they

:10:28.:10:31.

would form part of a stable, long-term and supportive shareholder

:10:32.:10:36.

base. Almost half of the shares allocated to them on a preferred

:10:37.:10:43.

bases had been sold within weeks. We will consider that as part of our

:10:44.:10:47.

consideration. I don't know what happened. Will you also be looking

:10:48.:10:55.

at the undervaluation of the land? Mount Pleasant is a huge development

:10:56.:10:59.

site in the middle of my constituency. The valuation of it

:11:00.:11:03.

was the equivalent of two buttons and an acorn. They valued it on the

:11:04.:11:08.

basis of being a car park. The public have been ripped off. What

:11:09.:11:12.

the public are going to get is a better quality service, the

:11:13.:11:16.

employees are going to be owning shares for the first time and the

:11:17.:11:20.

Royal Mail is now functioning. The long-term problem, a company

:11:21.:11:29.

threatened by overseas competition and put quality service, we are

:11:30.:11:32.

addressing that. A lot of people will remember that exchange. I did

:11:33.:11:37.

think the thing that might last from that exchange was that question

:11:38.:11:41.

about the so called gentleman's agreement. What Ed Miliband referred

:11:42.:11:48.

to as the mate's rates. We know what the power of this is for Labour, and

:11:49.:11:52.

it is a very powerful critique to make. They want to add it to the

:11:53.:11:58.

other criticisms they've got. That when the Government has a choice, it

:11:59.:12:02.

helps its chums in the city and doesn't help ordinary folk. My sense

:12:03.:12:05.

is this debate will go quite a long way, because it's pretty easy, and I

:12:06.:12:09.

don't mean this in a patronising way, but it's pretty easy to

:12:10.:12:13.

understand. Big city institution, got a lot of money, the posties who

:12:14.:12:17.

did get their shares can't sell them for three years and people are left

:12:18.:12:21.

asking, why was it done that way and did it need to be? David Willetts'

:12:22.:12:27.

answer is a revealing one. Governments had repeatedly tried to

:12:28.:12:31.

get this off their hands. It wasn't just Peter Mandelson, although Emily

:12:32.:12:34.

tries to dismiss him, it was effectively deputy priming a step

:12:35.:12:38.

under Gordon Brown and he was desperate to get rid of Royal Mail

:12:39.:12:41.

because he thought it was a liability. Michael Heseltine had to

:12:42.:12:44.

abandon a project to get rid of Royal Mail under John Major's

:12:45.:12:48.

government. There is a huge resistance to selling off Royal Mail

:12:49.:12:52.

but there is a consensus that the top of British politics, it's broken

:12:53.:12:55.

now but there's a consensus it was the right thing to get it in the

:12:56.:12:59.

private sector and get all that debt of government. Yellow you say get

:13:00.:13:05.

rid of. The agenda, and to be fair to Peter Mandelson, was habit as a

:13:06.:13:11.

stronger entity. There's going to be international competition, we want a

:13:12.:13:15.

better functioning Royal Mail. But you did it in a way that a lot of

:13:16.:13:21.

people, some of them we will find out have potentially been donating

:13:22.:13:25.

money to your party, a lot of people made millions of pounds by flipping

:13:26.:13:31.

these shares, having told you they weren't going to flip them. We will

:13:32.:13:36.

have to see what has happened there. We will be responding to the report.

:13:37.:13:43.

What do the viewers make of it? It was all about Royal Mail. Lead on

:13:44.:13:49.

Royal Mail, giveaway at PMQs and the PM couldn't defend the mass loss to

:13:50.:13:54.

the taxpayer. Some people were upset by the use of Muppets. They said it

:13:55.:13:59.

was rude and unnecessary. Dunces as well. An agreement, camera and

:14:00.:14:05.

avoiding real questions and the boys -- resorting to jokes. But there

:14:06.:14:09.

were quite a few who thought Ed Miliband didn't nail it, despite

:14:10.:14:13.

having an open goal. Paul Burke said, unfortunately Ed Miliband

:14:14.:14:17.

looks and sounds like an academic playing student politics. His choice

:14:18.:14:21.

of questions about sale price rather than its ability to provide good

:14:22.:14:28.

service only goes his inability. No question Vince cable, the Business

:14:29.:14:31.

Secretary who was involved and that the head of this deal, was better

:14:32.:14:35.

shouting from the sideline band playing centre forward. I think this

:14:36.:14:43.

will help Ed Miliband because he's been under pressure from some in his

:14:44.:14:47.

own party to reveal policy. Hold your nerve on this cost of living

:14:48.:14:51.

agenda, hold your nerve because it's getting support. He will think this

:14:52.:14:56.

team is working just fine, hold off of that desire to unveil more. We

:14:57.:15:01.

are really interested in PMQs today, and we don't always say that!

:15:02.:15:08.

These days many of us are used to paying for the TV we watch, whether

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it's for platforms like Sky or Virgin Media, or to download films

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and box sets over the internet. But the BBC is different. It's still

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largely funded by the licence fee which has been around in one form or

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another for 90 years. The broadcaster Nick Ross thinks it's

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time to think again about how we pay for shows like this one. We'll speak

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to him in a moment, but first, he's been to our HQ, Broadcasting House.

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Some of you might be familiar with from the BBC comedy W1A.

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I am the new head of values for the BBC. Well, not really. If you have

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seen the satirical series that lampoons the BBC, nothing would

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surprise you about who was head of what.

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If you have not seen it, believe me, it cuts pretty close to the bone.

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But if you were head of values for the BBC, what sort of vision would

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you want this place to have? It is a cultural triumph, one of the few

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British institutions that still carries great weight across the

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world. But it is so limited in its vision come so afraid that culture

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and competition cannot coexist. -- in its vision, so afraid. Time now

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for the shipping forecast. This is one of the corridors of power, in

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fact, it is the corridor of power. The Director General is surrounded

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by advisers clinging to a security blanket, the licensee. They are

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terrified that if we in Britain are given choice, we will not want the

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BBC. But I think they'd usually underestimate the talent here. --

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they are hugely underestimating the talent. Risk aversion is driving the

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BBC into a dead-end. The licence fee when it comes up for renewal in two

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years time will be 90 years old. As every year goes by, it becomes more

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and more an acoustic -- and anachronistic. When people get

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content through computers, telephones, the TV licence is

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increasingly archaic. It will become redundant just as the radio licence

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did in 1971. More importantly, when the world's content industry is

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building, films, internet, radio, TV, the BBC cannot grow. It is

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trapped. Replacing this poll tax with subscription would liberate the

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BBC. I believe it would get an almost universal intake and increase

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the money going into the BBC. It would unleash its talents. In any

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case, the licence fee risks public and political fatigue. If that

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happens, if the BBC income stagnates or is cut, that would not be satire,

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it would be tragic. And it would be hard to forgive those who lead us

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down the path. Nick Ross joins us now. The BBC has

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said a subscription service would turn the BBC into a commercial

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profit driven enterprise. Is that what you want? That is what it is. I

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want to be honest. I have worked for the BBC for a long time. I have no

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vested interests. I have always been freelance. At the moment, the BBC

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desperately needs to prove it gets a very big audience, just like a

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commercial channel does. It needs to get the licence fee renewed. The

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pressures, we are not honest about them. If we were honest, my view is

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we could get more revenue freely without sending people to prison or

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court because they do not pay their licence fee. What level would you

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want it set at? At a level that people want to play Bollettieri. I

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was with a senior person from the BBC a few days ago who told me they

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have done surveys which said that 20% of people would not want to pay

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?12 a month which is what it cost at the moment -- people want to play

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ball and her. I ask people how much they would pay to watch Sherlock.

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Most people would pay ?12 just for that. There is a huge untapped

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amount of cash coming into this industry. In five, ten years, net

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flicks has gone to a $3 billion a year industry. The BBC is convinced

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it would lose money on the evidence and the polls they have done, people

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would not pay if they were not forced to. The people commissioning

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this research will cling to the licence fee. They are cherry picking

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evidence and looking for the evidence which sustains their own

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view. If Rupert Murdoch had listened to these people, he would never have

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got people paying an average of ?550 per household for Sky. I understand

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where they are coming from. They are frightened and timid and they do not

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want the BBC to be challenged. The BBC licence fee, ?145, divided it up

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by month. If the people are asked to pay ?30 per month, it would be

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unaffordable for a lot of people who can afford ?145 a year. It would be

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voluntary. Secondly, remember the cruel joke when Sky started. What

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are those square things attacked to the satellite dishes? The answer

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was, they are council homes. Generally it is poorer people who

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cannot afford to go out, they are prepared to invest much more in what

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they get at home. I do not think you will find it a problem. The uptake

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will be enormous. If the BBC does good programming, that is what it is

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about. There is a public service remit. Doing programmes which some

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people might not think of good but others feel should be out there. The

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BBC claims they are the only ones who do that. Even in the most

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preposterous sense of self-importance, the BBC does not

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say that. It knows that Channel 4, Sky, they do a lot of good public

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service programming. It also knows the BBC does a lot of stuff that

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would flourish on the commercial market. What do you think about the

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future funding model? This is an issue that will be debated as we

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head into future charter renewal is. I like the fact it is universal. I

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like the arrangement which ensures people are sharing in something and

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that the fee, and there has been a lot of debate in the Commons about

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the criminality of it, the fee is a lot less than some of the commercial

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options. Niqabs two ex plain white we can do it -- Nick has to explain

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that. Would you be prepared to set the licence fee so ago September

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sent per annum for the next ten year charter renewal? If not, the BBC

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will be progressively eclipsed compared to whatever else goes on in

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Britain. If you are wrong about the amount of money, which services

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would you cut? I would cut the ones I could not sustain. Some things the

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government would as now subsidised, just as it subsidises over 75s. I am

:23:16.:23:24.

not trying to privatise it. It would have the same public service

:23:25.:23:29.

principles now but with more income. Would you have advertising?

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Absolutely not. It would ruin it. The way advertising works is getting

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very much out of date. Kids scroll through them. Thank you very much.

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Now, as you know BBC Two is home to all the big shows that shape the

:23:54.:23:56.

political debate. The Daily Politics. Cash in the Attic. And

:23:57.:23:59.

tonight it's hosting round two of Nigel Farage versus Nick Clegg, as

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they debate whether Britain should continue to be a member of the EU.

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In a moment, we'll talk to David Dimbleby, he's chairing tonight's

:24:07.:24:09.

showdown. But first, let's remind you how the BBC used to do this sort

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of thing the last time Britain was talking about a referendum on

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Europe, back in 1975. Tonight for the first time in this referendum

:24:24.:24:27.

campaign, Labour Minister meets Labour Minister to discuss the

:24:28.:24:31.

arguments for and against Britain's continued membership of the common

:24:32.:24:35.

market. Roy Jenkins, long-time supporter of British membership and

:24:36.:24:39.

president of the campaign. Tony Benn, Secretary of State for

:24:40.:24:42.

industry, the man who fought for the referendum and one of the leading

:24:43.:24:47.

opponents to the common market. And here is David Dimbleby, almost 40

:24:48.:24:50.

years on, but not looking a day older. Stop flattering me. The drugs

:24:51.:24:58.

have worked. He is outside Broadcasting House where the debate

:24:59.:25:02.

is taking place this evening. We'll be debate... How will it differ to

:25:03.:25:10.

last week but at the first round of the debate is a kind of sparring

:25:11.:25:14.

match work Nick Clegg on Nigel Farage sort out each other's

:25:15.:25:20.

weaknesses. I imagine tonight they will want to deliver knockout

:25:21.:25:24.

punches, in effect. One of them will want to have the other on the floor

:25:25.:25:29.

by the end of the hour. Am I right in thinking fewer questions this

:25:30.:25:33.

time compared to last week so that they can debate among themselves?

:25:34.:25:37.

Well, it is always a difficult balance. We will put in enough

:25:38.:25:43.

questions to make sure the subject is properly covered. We will have

:25:44.:25:47.

some up our sleeve in case some do not go well. The job is to get the

:25:48.:25:52.

two of them arguing. Half a dozen questions, eight, I don't know. Have

:25:53.:25:58.

you heard anything on the grapevine about how they are prepping? Nothing

:25:59.:26:02.

at all. They have both been doorstep. They are doing what

:26:03.:26:09.

Muhammad Ali used to do. I tell you one thing. I read through the

:26:10.:26:15.

transcript of the Roy Jenkins and Tony Benn one we did. The topics are

:26:16.:26:22.

that clearly same. It is fascinating. It is all about

:26:23.:26:26.

democracy, control, constitutional control on the one hand and jobs at

:26:27.:26:31.

the other. They go at that for 50 minutes. Brilliant to watch will

:26:32.:26:36.

stop as I hope and think tonight will be. I am sure it will. We will

:26:37.:26:42.

be watching. Thank you. Are you going to be watching tonight? Yes.

:26:43.:26:48.

Do you wish your man was in their as well? Our option which is

:26:49.:26:53.

negotiating a better deal and put into a referendum is not what either

:26:54.:26:57.

of the parties debating this evening will be offering the electorate.

:26:58.:27:03.

That is what the electorate want. You should have done the debate. Is

:27:04.:27:07.

it good for Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage? Except I do not think people

:27:08.:27:16.

are terribly interested. I am sorry. Good audience on Sky last time. What

:27:17.:27:22.

do you mean by that? The amount of people who watch this programme

:27:23.:27:29.

tonight. -- this programme perhaps. It got more! I think Sky got almost

:27:30.:27:36.

ten times its normal audience. Not bad. That does not include LBC. Lots

:27:37.:27:44.

of offices have the television on. I cannot believe you would say a thing

:27:45.:27:51.

like that! You have the two extremes of the debate. Mr Clegg, extreme? We

:27:52.:28:00.

are going to give you a final reminder that you can watch the

:28:01.:28:03.

debate live on BBC Two at 7pm tonight. All you can set your video

:28:04.:28:15.

recorder! -- or you can set. It will be on iPlayer also. We will give you

:28:16.:28:25.

the answer to the Guess The Year. The clue was Edwina Currie's trouble

:28:26.:28:28.

with eggs, so it must have been 1988. Hit that button. Find out who

:28:29.:28:44.

has won. There we go. That is it. We thank our special guests. The new

:28:45.:28:49.

starting on BBC One. We will be back tomorrow and new. Goodbye. -- at

:28:50.:28:54.

noon.

:28:55.:28:56.

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