19/06/2014 Daily Politics


19/06/2014

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is still indicating that any military

:02:34.:02:38.

The Obama administration has shown signs of frustrations with Iraq's

:02:39.:02:44.

Prime Minister Nouri Al-Maliki, senior Republican Senate toe John

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McCain has gone further, he has called on him to stand down, we are

:02:48.:02:54.

joined by a Tory MP and a Kurd by origin, whose family fled Iraq when

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he was nine, welcome. There was a lot of talk in PMQs that

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Mr Maliki has to build an inclusive Government. He has to bring more

:03:04.:03:06.

people in, and reach out. It is all too late for that. They are killing

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each other. I think it is right for you to be sceptical, he has had

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eight years to try and bring everyone together and said, instead

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he hasn't been divisive, sectarian, which has led to the situation we

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find ourselves in today, because ISIS is actually a relatively small

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group of extremists, terrorist criminals, but they are effectively

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being able to operate because some of the Sunni tribes were so fed up

:03:36.:03:42.

for being disenfranchised by Baghdad, that they got to a police

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where they would rather have evil people round than Nouri Al-Maliki.

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In Baghdad yesterday of all the political leaders. It is right for

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David Cameron and President Obama to say that they have too great an

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inclusive government. It sounds like you were talking about Islington

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council but you are not, it is Baghdad. It is over for that. Why

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would suggest that what Mr Cameron says is irrelevant. Even what Mr

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Obama says, it does not matter too much. The man he is worried about

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was President Rouhani. He is a Rand's man. -- Iran. And the site

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and beside him is the head of the rainy and Revolutionary guard with a

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couple of brigades behind him. That is what matters. I suspect that Iran

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does not want to see Iraq Nay have secured Kirkuk, they have secured

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their area, they don't need additional help. That is what he was

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calling for This maybe one voice. This is the official representative

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of the Kurdish army. My view is we mustn't take sides. It is not for

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us... It is up to the Iraqi political leadership to come

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together. They have plenty of weapon, they have bought lots of

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weapons. Maliki spent several billion dollars buying weapons. They

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are all with ISIS now If they come together, Shia, Sunni and Kurd. If

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they don't, then the situation could be dire. What is your view on this?

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My view is that the viability of Iraq as a single state, if after

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eight years it can't hold three elections, we reason back to the

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situation pre-Saddam, that in order for that state to exist to be

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stable, it has to have a dictatorship of the most ruthless

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kind. That is an extraordinarily depressing view, I must say I have

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very little confidence that this sort of political reconciliation

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will happen, I think it is very dangerous to take sides, not just

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because you are taking sides internally, we didn't do that for

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Syria, and if you are seen to do it in Iraq, it becomes hugely

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difficult. I think the whole Middle East, no-one is talking about

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Israel-Palestine at the moment. It is not the big issue. It is not. We

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are dealing with huge humanitarian consequences in Lebanon and that

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region. It's a big day for Ed Miliband,

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he'll be hoping to switch the focus from his poll ratings to

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Labour's policies. This morning he's been setting out

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how the party thinks it's going to solve one of

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its biggest challenges ahead of the election - how to offer something

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different from the Conservatives but Yes, Ed Miliband is continuing to

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lay his policy paving, smoothing his Sensitive to accusations that Labour

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are the party of public spending, he's keen to

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show he doesn't think the streets lined with gold, promising 'big

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changes not big spending'. To start with they'll pull up out

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of work benefits for 18-21 year olds, replacing it with

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a means-tested allowance that takes into account their parents' income -

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but they'll only be entitled to it Labour claim this could save

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the government ?65 They're also planning to add some

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extra slabs to the contributory principle in the benefits system -

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the idea that the more you put in, the more you should get out.

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Labour is promising to increase the contributory JSA - that's

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the amount people are automatically entitled to if they have been

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working - by around ?20-30 They'll fund this by increasing

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the number of years you have to work before you can claim it -

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from 2 to five years. Here's what he had to say

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about it a short while ago. How many times have I heard people

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say, I have paid into the system but one that time came and are really

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needed help, I did not get anything back.

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one that time came and are really needed help, I did not Rewarding

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contributions were, in fact, a key in support of the Beveridge report.

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And it is a key intuition from the British people of what a welfare

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state would look like. But the principle has been forgotten by

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governments of both parties. And we're joined now by Labour's

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shadow work and pensions minister Stephen Timms,

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and by Esther McVey, she's Welcome to both of you. We have been

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poring over his Apostles this morning. Why are they so, the gated?

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The proposals have been endorsed by Ed Miliband. Let's start with IPPR,

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because our viewers will not know what that is. It is a Labour

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inclined think tank? Yes. And they had come forward with some good

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prose Ozil is, about the high levels of youth unemployment. -- proposals.

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At the moment, unemployment was less than it was at the time of the

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election and youth employment is 100,000 higher than it was at the

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time of the election. Current policies are clearly not solving the

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problem. We need a new approach and I think the IPPR puzzle is a big

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change in the way we look after young people, keeping them in

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training until they have a decent level of skills. You are shaking

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your head. Youth unemployment is not higher than it was? That is the

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wrong way round. It is nearly 100,000 less than it was. It is

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falling consecutively. And the rates for 60 and 70... NEET rates are at

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the lowest since records began, the lowest since 2005. It is a reversal

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of what you have heard there. Youth employment is lower than at the

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elections. People will find that out. There is youth unemployment, we

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are agreed on that. Much too high. And what you were saying is that if

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you are between 18 and 21, you will not get your benefit if you do not

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take training? You will not get the allowance. You will get a youth

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allowance and that will be conditional on you, if you are not

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yet at level three, being in training. Is that a platform? It is

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a level or Brad Sheppard. So unless you have some qualifications

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already, you will not get this new welfare payment unless you are

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prepared to get the qualifications? But if you have these qualifications

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but no job, you will still get the payment? You will be on GSA. If you

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have those levels of skills, or you have been in work for a year, you

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will be on adult benefits. You will have to look at everybody to

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determine the level of skill before they determine whether they will get

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the payments? To determine what help they need in order to decide how

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best to operate. And then you have to means test it? We will means test

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as we do for younger people and as we do for people in higher education

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at the moment. It will be means tested on the basis of parental

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income. How much is that going to cost? The net cost is captivated by

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IPPR as a saving of ?65 million. We will be spending more on support for

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young people in further education but less on jobseeker's allowance.

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Let me get this right, if you are between 18 and 21, you are now going

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to have to be means tested, and you are going to have to be tested on

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what your qualifications are, and depending on the qualifications, you

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will then maybe get some money from the government if you take some

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training? Depending on the support you need, that will depend on the

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support you get. Are you saying that is not complicated? Anything can be

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presented as being promulgated. This is. The reality is that there will

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be a number of years were there will not be extra money to be spent so we

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have to restructure within the system. And what IPPR has come up

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with is a good way of doing that. A lot of this was floated last year

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and you run away from it. What happened to your simpler policy to

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young people? You said, if you cannot get a job, we will give you a

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job but take that job or you will lose your benefits. What happens to

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that? That is still in place. The job guarantee proposition, if you

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have been out of work for a year, job guarantee proposition, if you

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have been out of we will guarantee you the offer of a job and you will

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need to take it once the offer has been made. Why not leave it there?

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Cos we think we need to do more to support under 21 is to make sure

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they have the skills. Why not offer them a skills arrangement? Why not

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say, either take training or jobs, and we will guarantee you can have

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one or the other, or you do not get benefits? We're saying to unemployed

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young people, not in a job, that we will support you to get the skills

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you need. We will also, after 12 months out of work, there will be

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the offer under the compulsory job guarantee. What is the government

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doing for these people? Obviously, a lot, because on employment has come

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down. Looking at the statistics on the records from the 1960s onwards,

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what they have found is really important is that the UK keeps young

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people close to the labour market, whether it is jobseeker's

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allowance, or whatever, from there you determine what support they

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need. Is allowance, or whatever, from there

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you determine it a trainee ships? That is if you have not got an NVQ

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in maths or English. But we still have a lot of people who are

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unemployed. What are you doing about that? We are working with business

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and young individuals to see whether it is more employability skills that

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people need. Not everybody needs to go through an academic route. But he

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is not saying that either. They are. They are insisting it is an A-level

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standard. Or an apprenticeship. Some people need to get a job with the

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tactical application to see how they get career progression through that

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job. What we're seeing is that providing work experience is

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something that Labour was so profoundly against and that in

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itself has had a huge impact. So why do we still have 900,000 people not

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in education, employment or training? It has gone down to about

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860,000. Near enough. I've rented it up.

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training? It has gone down to about 860,000. Near enough. I've If you

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take out those in full-time education, it goes down to 560,000,

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so... But the NEETs does not include university students. How many of

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them are there? Nearly 300,000. We have to work with them, which is why

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we're doing a lot of pilots. How do we engage with young children who

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have never engaged their school career? How can we say that they

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will be at this level in three years? How can we engage them and

:19:24.:19:27.

give them employability skills? How can we get them up in the morning.

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It is such a long journey to get them employed and then, through

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work, you will say, I would like to learn more and have more skills. I'd

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get the principle. The other thing you have done to comment on this is

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that if you have been in work for a longer period of time, and you are

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made redundant or you lose your lose your job, -- lose your job, you

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will get a higher unemployment benefits. If somebody has worked for

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four years and they lose their job through no fault of their own, white

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should they get less unemployment benefit than someone who has worked

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for five years? If you have paid in for two years and lose your job, we

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think if you are paying in for longer you should see the benefit

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and the calculation... Again, you have made it complicated and I would

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suggest a bit unfair. I don't think it is any more complicated than the

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current system. What we want do is reward people who have paid in for a

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lengthy period o time. Fife years is a good period to go for. I would

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suggest that most people who this will affect will have not a clue

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what this means for them. I think that is, I am not sure that is true,

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because they will have a clue. You were going to say it was true! I

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don't think they will understand the complexities of it and the theory

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behind it and the contribution of the national insurance contribution,

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and all that. They will certainly understand it when they turn up to

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pick up a Giro to get their benefit and find they are not entitled, they

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will certainly understand it if they are a young person who find they get

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no money or they have to go on a course. What makes me slightly

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anxious is that a lot of these young people who are the NEETs, you are

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playing catch up. These people have not in school got some of the soft

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skills about... But teaching them soft skills when they are turned off

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at 17 and 18, is not a substitute for some of the preparation for life

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skills that our schools are not measured against and if they are not

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measured against doing it, then they don't deliver. I don't want to lose

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you both but we have to move on to, stick with us, don't go away,

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because I am sticking with Labour. Former Labour cab neat minister

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occasionally known as the prince of darkness, he is always known as the

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Prince of darkness Peter Mandelson was asked about Ed Miliband when he

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appeared on Newsnight last night. I think we could say his answer wasn't

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exactly helpful. What Ed is trying to do is approach politics in a

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different way from the way in which Tony Blair and Knowle approached it.

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Do you think it is working? It may well work, I would say to you. May?

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I think he has confused the party's message to business, I think that

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what he needs to do is to embrace that model of a market based

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economy, where we are supported business success, but where we also

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want to see a socially inclusive society, with principles of social

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justice, where we are creating opportunities for people, and

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leaning against inequalities in society, in everything we do. How he

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has muddled the message? He places a great deal of emphasis on the last

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of those position, the social justice, the fairness, the leaning

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against inequality, that is right for a Labour leader to do so.

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Not resoundingly supportive and when asked Lord mannedlen son didn't say

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whether he thought Ed Miliband was the best possible leader, merely he

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was the leader you have, stating obviously the truth there. Do you

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think he is the best possible leader the party can have? He is. I was one

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of the first people to nominate him as leader of the party, I do think

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she the best leader he could have. I think he is doing a difficult job. I

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agree with Peter about that. We are having to deal with and some very

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difficult problem, the fact the average household is ?1600 a year

:23:54.:23:57.

worse Ofcom paired with the election at a time when there isn't going to

:23:58.:24:01.

be much public money round for the next few years. If the public was

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convinced about that in opposition that is a message you could use to

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bolster your support, it seems to be working in the opposite direction,

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the truth is no Dott the Government will argue -- no doubt the

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Government will argue, Labour is struggling to get a message across

:24:18.:24:23.

that is going to appeal to voters. One message is clear is there isn't

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a great deal of confidence in the parties that are represented in

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Parliament at the moment. The Government part toirs the

:24:30.:24:31.

opposition. That sounds like an excuse We have a big job, all of us

:24:32.:24:36.

have a big job to do, the outcome of the next election will be determined

:24:37.:24:41.

by voters' judgment about who has the most compelling apps to deal

:24:42.:24:44.

with the problems like the cost of living crisis we are facing.

:24:45.:24:48.

Interestingly, the party, Labour is doing better than the leader, and

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has done pretty consistently. That is a problem and a shame, you might

:24:53.:24:56.

argue for the Labour Party, that you have managed to get yourselves a

:24:57.:25:00.

message as a party, but your leader is just not gaining traction. Ed is

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responsible for the party's me sarntion Ed has led us to this point

:25:06.:25:10.

-- message. They don't credit him with that We have a lot of work to

:25:11.:25:17.

do, I am enkaurnled by the overall poll rating but we have to do

:25:18.:25:23.

better. Today's announce it is an important part. What are his selling

:25:24.:25:29.

points? What he is doing is repositioning the party for a period

:25:30.:25:34.

when we have a time of austerity, when everybody is worse off than

:25:35.:25:38.

they were in the past. Positioning is a sort of Westminster speak, if

:25:39.:25:42.

you like, it is jar develop for u I understand what you are saying, but

:25:43.:25:46.

what are his strengths for the voting public? Name me a couple of

:25:47.:25:50.

his real strengths as leader? I think one of his strengths is

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correctly identifying the cost Offalying crisis as the big issue

:25:55.:25:57.

that is facing the country at the moment. I think the speech he made

:25:58.:26:01.

at the Labour Party conference talking about the need for a more

:26:02.:26:06.

responsible capitalism. That was a far sighted speech. I think his

:26:07.:26:10.

announcement about the energy price freeze which no-one else suggested

:26:11.:26:14.

was a very shrewd judgment. Those are policies. The big judgments is

:26:15.:26:19.

his big strength. And people may or may not like those policies, but

:26:20.:26:23.

what about him? If you are comparing him to Tony Blair and Gordon Brown,

:26:24.:26:29.

is he better leader than them? He is operating in a different environment

:26:30.:26:34.

from Tony Blair. If you take them in isolation as three leaders is he

:26:35.:26:38.

better? I think what Ed is very successfully doing is making sound

:26:39.:26:42.

judgments about the state of the country at the moment, and our

:26:43.:26:46.

future direction, that is what I want the leader of our party to be

:26:47.:26:51.

doing. So why do the ratings not match up? They are going down. If

:26:52.:26:55.

you look at the European elections it is clear there is a low degree of

:26:56.:26:59.

confidence in all the parties in Parliament. We want to address that.

:27:00.:27:05.

Is it still true Eden Hazard been talked about in senior Tory circles

:27:06.:27:09.

that Ed Miliband is your secret weapon in the election? At this

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rate, when you are giving us the polling figures that is true. Where

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I would look at it. I don't discuss it, I am discussing what I have to

:27:18.:27:22.

do, I could give you an example in welfare, Ed Miliband and the Labour

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Party has voted against every welfare change that we have done,

:27:28.:27:31.

whether it is the overall benefits cap, everything, so they didn't watt

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to do everything, they come up with an announcement which confuses the

:27:36.:27:39.

system and saves a tiny amount of money. If I looked at what I thought

:27:40.:27:43.

the announcement was about, it was about taking over 100,000 people off

:27:44.:27:47.

the welfare count, because you are putting them on a traineeship, so it

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is smoke and mirrors politics, not dealing with the situation. That is

:27:53.:27:55.

what people have thought about Ed Miliband, he, it is all smoke and

:27:56.:28:00.

mirror, you are not dealing with the core issues of the day but they will

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put them on a different benefit which is off the claimant count.

:28:05.:28:09.

Things obviously like energy prices, Labour did get traction with that,

:28:10.:28:15.

but hang on a second, I must... It was the worse thing they could have

:28:16.:28:18.

done, the whole of their price fell and they had to buy gas two years

:28:19.:28:22.

ahead. Disaster for them. Your views on Ed Miliband as a leader? I think

:28:23.:28:28.

he is not getting his message of his individual strengths and I do think

:28:29.:28:32.

he has some strengths. What are they? I think they are honesty, I

:28:33.:28:39.

think they are intelligence, I think he's thoughtful, and... Are your

:28:40.:28:44.

priced the poll ratings are poor? I am... Partly surprised less

:28:45.:28:54.

surprised because I somehow, he has never quite managed to be himself,

:28:55.:28:59.

and create that identity with the public. I think one of the problems,

:29:00.:29:04.

because a lot of the policy stuff is coming together and I think coming a

:29:05.:29:10.

bit more coherent. When you cut Peter Mandelson off in his prime, he

:29:11.:29:17.

was about to say it is the economic message, the, the how you create

:29:18.:29:22.

that new sort of fairness, within a zero growth economy, not a score

:29:23.:29:27.

growth, but public spending constraints. Which maybe would

:29:28.:29:32.

probably have to stick to as well. And they have never managed to shake

:29:33.:29:37.

off the unfair, I think, perception and Ed hasn't managed to do it,

:29:38.:29:42.

no-one has managed to do it that Labour was to blame for the whole of

:29:43.:29:45.

the economic crisis worldwide. Let us leave it there. Thank you. Than

:29:46.:29:50.

do you two of you. You leave us at this stage. Whatever happened to

:29:51.:29:54.

Lord's reform? You may remember it was a big deal in the first part of

:29:55.:29:57.

this Parliament until the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives had

:29:58.:30:01.

a big -- bit of a falling out. Giles has been catching up.

:30:02.:30:06.

There have been serious attempts to reform the House of Lords for as

:30:07.:30:10.

long as the oldest living peer who is 94 has been alive. Every attempt

:30:11.:30:17.

has stumbled and bowed to failure or achieved a tinkering of the ermine

:30:18.:30:24.

lined edged only. In 1997 Labour outlined with some Liberal Democrat

:30:25.:30:30.

input the removal of most of the hereditary peer, leaving the life

:30:31.:30:35.

peer, roles created in 1958, but apart from the Parliament Act of

:30:36.:30:39.

1911 and these two milestones the story of Lord's reform is one of

:30:40.:30:43.

failure and fudging. There was one man in this Parliament who thought

:30:44.:30:47.

that was a record he could break. When you bear in mind that there are

:30:48.:30:53.

four times as many members of the held who are over the age of 90 than

:30:54.:30:58.

under the age of 40. House of Lords when over half are over the age of

:30:59.:31:04.

70, you get the measure of the challenge of how much we need to

:31:05.:31:09.

pull thefrom the 19th century into the 21st century.

:31:10.:31:24.

In As we know, Nick Clegg's plan and dragged everyone involved down. The

:31:25.:31:27.

real problem with Lords reform is that it is like an obstacle course

:31:28.:31:30.

and there's a lot of obstacles. All of the parties agree they should be

:31:31.:31:35.

reformed, and they put that in their manifestoes, but they could not

:31:36.:31:38.

agree how much and what kind, and when they tried it, it did not work.

:31:39.:31:42.

Then there's the problem that some of the Lords do not agree with their

:31:43.:31:46.

own parties on reform and the Lords do not tend to vote for their own

:31:47.:31:51.

demise. Turkeys do not fold for Christmas. Add to that, you cannot

:31:52.:31:55.

prove that nobody cares but he can prove that lots of people care more

:31:56.:31:58.

about other things. And one more thing... The House of Lords question

:31:59.:32:04.

can wear people out. It is a Bermuda Triangle. Every generation, people

:32:05.:32:09.

go into it and some never reappear. They come out battered and bruised.

:32:10.:32:15.

They vowed never to do it again. Not everyone has, and for some, a fire

:32:16.:32:17.

for an elected house has not died. everyone has, and for some, a fire

:32:18.:32:20.

for an elected house has It is just the biggest offenders of the Lords

:32:21.:32:23.

tend to be Lords. If you get my drift. This is one turkey that I

:32:24.:32:28.

want you to know will be voting for Christmas at every possible

:32:29.:32:32.

opportunity. One Lord thinks the big opportunity is the public replacing

:32:33.:32:35.

the house. Perhaps suggesting amendments online or citizens juries

:32:36.:32:40.

looking at proposed legislation. The end of the road is that we will be

:32:41.:32:45.

able to abolish the House of Lords altogether and replace it with those

:32:46.:32:54.

sorts of legislative improvements by the public, to use the public's

:32:55.:32:58.

expertise and experience rather than a bunch of people like me who get

:32:59.:33:01.

appointed for life, which is indefensible. The House of Commons

:33:02.:33:06.

voted with clarity about the principle that it should be elected.

:33:07.:33:12.

Now the difficulty is the detail. Ask somebody from Parliament, a

:33:13.:33:15.

parliamentarian in the Commons or in the Lords, and everyone has a

:33:16.:33:19.

different opinion about the detail. That is the tricky bit. But there is

:33:20.:33:24.

more than that that is tricky. The Lords has a utilitarian purpose,

:33:25.:33:28.

analysing legislation line by line. It contains people of white

:33:29.:33:32.

expertise and no particular burning tribal loyalty. Yes, many of them

:33:33.:33:36.

are old and there are hundreds of them, and all the parties keep

:33:37.:33:44.

adding more, but one the -- 1p says he can give reasons for why it will

:33:45.:33:49.

stay put. It is a unreformable, aside from the Grand Slam, and it

:33:50.:33:57.

fulfils a utilitarian function. And it adds to, I think, the panache of

:33:58.:34:02.

the British constitution. And the tourists love it. Who could want

:34:03.:34:09.

more? The tourists love it? I will talk to my guests in a moment but

:34:10.:34:12.

I'm going to welcome viewers in Scotland, who have been watching

:34:13.:34:24.

first ministers questions. We are joined by one of the UKIP peers, who

:34:25.:34:28.

used to be the party's leader. Is it unreformable? I do not think it is

:34:29.:34:33.

unreformable. I think it is and probably should be unelectable.

:34:34.:34:38.

Because there is this conflation between reform and election. I think

:34:39.:34:47.

that every time you have proposals for an elected house, and Nick Clegg

:34:48.:34:53.

was on that clip saying it was because everyone was old and had to

:34:54.:34:56.

be thrown out, there are ways of dealing with old people which are

:34:57.:35:02.

different from saying that we should have a bicameral system with two

:35:03.:35:08.

elected houses. Because two elected houses in the UK, I think, would not

:35:09.:35:14.

add to the quality of government, but caused terrible gridlock.

:35:15.:35:20.

Malcolm Pearson, that is the will of the House of Commons, to have some

:35:21.:35:24.

sort of elected chamber. When you come down to it, it is not, because

:35:25.:35:28.

the House of Commons, in the end, does not want a second chamber which

:35:29.:35:36.

is more powerful, undermining the present sovereignty of the House of

:35:37.:35:44.

Commons. I feel that growing public disdain for the political class is

:35:45.:35:51.

not caused by the House of Lords, so much as by the feeling that their

:35:52.:35:56.

votes does not really count any more. And that comes, in part, from

:35:57.:36:03.

our present system, first past the post, where only 60% of the

:36:04.:36:08.

electorate bothered to vote and only 40% of those elect the government.

:36:09.:36:12.

The government on the day is on 24%. I would start at the other end. This

:36:13.:36:17.

is not UKIP policy, and we do not have a policy on this as far as I

:36:18.:36:21.

know. I would start at the other end with the House of Commons. In fact,

:36:22.:36:25.

if you read a debate that UKIP had in the Lords, lead by Lord

:36:26.:36:33.

Willoughby, we suggested that the House of Commons should be reduced

:36:34.:36:40.

only to matters of truly national interest. You not think the House of

:36:41.:36:45.

Lords should be reduced? All the rest should be local with more

:36:46.:36:49.

referendums. You not think the House of Lords should be smaller? It has

:36:50.:36:54.

been stuffed full of party people. All the parties are doing it. The

:36:55.:36:59.

Lib Dems have 98 and they will put more in. That is hardly going to

:37:00.:37:04.

engage people with the process. And going back to your original

:37:05.:37:07.

question, can you reform the house two act sullenly. -- can you reform

:37:08.:37:15.

the house? Absolutely. But no one will agree how. Well, small steps.

:37:16.:37:20.

We got a Private Members' Bill through. There is an agenda for

:37:21.:37:23.

change about reducing the size of the house, having a retirement age.

:37:24.:37:28.

But it is getting bigger. It is not the government's agenda for change.

:37:29.:37:33.

Within the house itself... And cutting out those who misbehave?

:37:34.:37:37.

Yes. Why have a Private Members' Bill to do just that. Let's talk

:37:38.:37:42.

about representation. Three UKIP peers, is that enough? Know,

:37:43.:37:48.

obviously. Why do you deserve more? Since he became Prime Minister,

:37:49.:37:53.

David Cameron has put in 160 peers. Why does UKIP deserve more? At the

:37:54.:37:59.

moment, we have three. And you had to 3.2% of the vote. The policy of

:38:00.:38:05.

David Cameron and David Clegg -- Nick Clegg to make appointments to

:38:06.:38:09.

the Lords, reflecting the votes cast that the previous general election,

:38:10.:38:14.

was clearly idiotic. One of the strengths of the House of Lords is

:38:15.:38:17.

that it does not reflect the composition of the House of Commons.

:38:18.:38:23.

Even so... Does UKIP deserve that? Absolutely agree with Malcolm. It

:38:24.:38:29.

was idiotic. It would have meant that we had BNP members, 16 members

:38:30.:38:37.

of the BNP in the House of Lords... If they hadn't commented the

:38:38.:38:43.

coalition agreement. It was barking. Keep asking questions, to which

:38:44.:38:51.

parties that contested the last general election though the rules

:38:52.:38:58.

apply? I think it is important that the House of Lords is not a mini me

:38:59.:39:02.

of the House of Commons, reflecting the political balance. Very quickly,

:39:03.:39:08.

because we're running out of time. We got 27% of the vote in the NASA

:39:09.:39:13.

national -- last national elections. We have 0.0% of the amount in the

:39:14.:39:23.

Lords. I have friends who say they fought UKIP. I think David Cameron

:39:24.:39:28.

should join us. Who? Give you extra time. No names. Am I surprised? Is

:39:29.:39:37.

that what that look says. Speaking of barking... What makes

:39:38.:39:40.

for a good MP? A local man or woman, born and

:39:41.:39:43.

bred who knows the name of every Or a bright young thing, hand-picked

:39:44.:39:46.

by the party high command and Well, research published yesterday

:39:47.:39:50.

showed more and more candidates have links to

:39:51.:39:53.

Westminster, leading to familiar warnings that all MPs will end up

:39:54.:39:55.

looking and sounding the same. At most elections, there's

:39:56.:40:02.

a competition to shrug off that image and demonstrate

:40:03.:40:05.

your local credentials. Have a look at this poor candidate

:40:06.:40:08.

doing his best in last year's And the man

:40:09.:40:15.

being given a hard time by our Adam Do you know which favourites soap

:40:16.:40:25.

opera was filmed in this constituency? I do not know. I know

:40:26.:40:30.

that Ernie, the fastest Notman of the West was set here. Benny Hill is

:40:31.:40:34.

from Eastleigh. That is me being a politician and avoiding the

:40:35.:40:38.

question. I'm very proud of that. Howard is way. It was filmed in

:40:39.:40:45.

Camberwell. As you say, it is not typical of here. Good information.

:40:46.:40:49.

Thank you. Which soap opera character nowadays do you think you

:40:50.:40:53.

are most like? As a person? Think I am probably... Bet Lynch in

:40:54.:41:00.

Coronation Street. Behind the pub, serving pints. The ordinary people

:41:01.:41:06.

of Eastleigh. Is that a good? That is rubbish. Don't use that. And we

:41:07.:41:10.

would never dream of using it. And the man

:41:11.:41:13.

being given a hard time by our Adam there was John O'Farrell, the author

:41:14.:41:18.

and former Labour candidate. Was it a disadvantage not having

:41:19.:41:28.

local roots in that by-election? It was. I had a three-week campaign. It

:41:29.:41:35.

was a very difficult time. The public forum, they would ask me

:41:36.:41:38.

about the gravel pits and it might have been a trick question. Daihatsu

:41:39.:41:43.

sometimes try and make up policy on the hoof. He would have some Labour

:41:44.:41:48.

want Pazzini a phone message and saying that they were against the

:41:49.:41:54.

gravel pits. And they had a local councillor who knew the schools and

:41:55.:41:59.

the area well, and that counts for something. They played up that they

:42:00.:42:02.

were the local guy and you were parachuted in from the big smoke.

:42:03.:42:05.

Yes, indeed, although I was selected by the local party and was a local

:42:06.:42:13.

candidate against me. I've stood in my hometown against the reason me

:42:14.:42:16.

and that has stood as a parachuted in candidate. And in the first one,

:42:17.:42:22.

I came third and in the second I came fourth. As a scientific

:42:23.:42:27.

experiment... It must've been an easier campaign in Maidenhead. When

:42:28.:42:30.

people ask you about the nonexistent gravel pit, you could tell them that

:42:31.:42:33.

did not have one. Also, I did not get lost going around in the car.

:42:34.:42:38.

And you bump into people you used to know and you end up canvassing the

:42:39.:42:42.

school bully. Is he going to give me a dead leg for being tall? But you

:42:43.:42:47.

were different from the people that are chosen because there is a

:42:48.:42:51.

identikit now from both parties. They have usually come from

:42:52.:42:54.

Oxbridge, straight into a think tank like the IPPR commodity policy

:42:55.:43:01.

exchange, and they become a special adviser and then a seat is chosen

:43:02.:43:06.

for them, and they begin to sound and look, and almost say the same

:43:07.:43:10.

things as well. This is a problem. We have too many identikit

:43:11.:43:15.

politicians. But when you say a seat is chosen, it is a local parties

:43:16.:43:18.

that have a responsibility to say, actually, these candidates may not

:43:19.:43:23.

look like my idea of an MP. This is true in the Conservative Party were

:43:24.:43:28.

lots of women will choose a man, and think it is encouraging that the

:43:29.:43:32.

Labour Party has a majority of candidates, but I think and take

:43:33.:43:37.

your point, but having people from different jobs, and if you wanted a

:43:38.:43:40.

local person, why not a headteacher, for example, who knows

:43:41.:43:44.

the community? But they will be taking a pay cut to become an MP.

:43:45.:43:49.

Would you try again? I do not think that will try again for an

:43:50.:43:54.

unwinnable seat because I have done that and they do not think you want

:43:55.:43:59.

to be an MP. You would not like it? Part of me would, but I'm quite

:44:00.:44:03.

enjoying being a writer and coming on to talk to you with no

:44:04.:44:07.

responsible 80s. You do not have a microchip in your brain!

:44:08.:44:10.

Do you think you would have told of the party line? I have been told ill

:44:11.:44:17.

-- I have been called a loose but loyal Canon. I would like the Labour

:44:18.:44:24.

Party to win the next will not stand, to be honest. Maybe the

:44:25.:44:28.

constituencies should dig in their heels and resist those at the Labour

:44:29.:44:32.

high command and Tory Central office are trying to impose? Often, they

:44:33.:44:41.

can send signals. They can, and they can speak to the Labour Party and

:44:42.:44:44.

union leaders, and encourage them to vote for particular candidates. We

:44:45.:44:48.

want candidates who have a certain amount of Bruce Buck, and our

:44:49.:44:52.

hard-working. That is more important than where they live, or who they

:44:53.:44:57.

work for. I think I would like to get a good spread of candidates, but

:44:58.:45:01.

really we want good politicians improving the image of politicians

:45:02.:45:04.

in this country. You worried about the kind of singing this -- sameness

:45:05.:45:15.

of the younger generation? The nickname of, and that cannot even

:45:16.:45:18.

remember his real name, the Tory who won in Newark, we call Tim Mr

:45:19.:45:25.

generic because he seemed, he seemed like a generic Tory candidate.

:45:26.:45:34.

Knowing what you are talking about is tremendously important, and that

:45:35.:45:38.

is something being something other than politics, now, I am not in a

:45:39.:45:42.

good place to talk about this, because I was elected very very

:45:43.:45:49.

young, but I was temperature first constituency I fought was Enoch

:45:50.:45:53.

Powell's constituency, it was lovely because my dads was a dentist. -- my

:45:54.:46:04.

dad was a dentist. But there, because Enoch Powell was such a

:46:05.:46:07.

figure and the Labour Party had hopeless sort of organise,

:46:08.:46:12.

organisation, I was chose bane woman member of the GMC told me, who we

:46:13.:46:17.

need is a gimmick. And you were the gimmick. I was a 22-year-old

:46:18.:46:22.

gimmick. On that shock news, we have to move on. Thank you, thanks John.

:46:23.:46:27.

It is the news Westminster has been waiting for for day, forget Iraq,

:46:28.:46:31.

the economy, what politicians and hacks really wanted to know was who

:46:32.:46:35.

was going to be the new chairman of the Health Select Committee? After a

:46:36.:46:38.

knife-edge vote the winner was announced yesterday in what can only

:46:39.:46:41.

be described as a moment of high drama. In years to come people will

:46:42.:46:46.

say I was there. This is how events unfolded.

:46:47.:46:52.

Dr Sarah wall stop was elected -- Wollaston was elected chair with 226

:46:53.:46:58.

votes. The other candidate in that round was Dr Philip Lee, who

:46:59.:47:06.

received 195 votes. The NHS touches people's lives a million times every

:47:07.:47:11.

36 hours. It is the most extraordinary achievement and the

:47:12.:47:14.

most extraordinary challenge, the new Chief Executive of NHS England

:47:15.:47:18.

has called on everyone within the NHS to think like a patient, and act

:47:19.:47:23.

like a taxpayer. I think that the role of the Select Committee is to

:47:24.:47:28.

ask those challenging questions, on behalf of patients and taxpayer's,

:47:29.:47:34.

so this most cherished institution can continue to be there for all of

:47:35.:47:37.

our constituents when they need it the most and thank you. --

:47:38.:47:45.

taxpayers. I know as she the knowledge and the wisdom to be a

:47:46.:47:49.

very good chair of the Health Select Committee and I wish her all the

:47:50.:47:55.

very best. Gracious in defeat there Philip Lee and Sarah Wollaston join

:47:56.:47:58.

us now, you are delighted Absolutely delighted. Are you spoken to Jeremy

:47:59.:48:03.

Hunt? Yes he sent me a nice text, that was kind of him. Rumour as you

:48:04.:48:09.

will know of people saying to backbench Conservatives don't vote

:48:10.:48:13.

for Sarah, she is too much of a Maverick, too independent minds,

:48:14.:48:17.

what do you say to that? What I hope to bring to this, I have had 24

:48:18.:48:21.

years front line expense and I hope to be able to bring that experience

:48:22.:48:25.

to the committee. My view is you have no business chairing any Select

:48:26.:48:30.

Committee unless you are prepared to ask challenging question, in a

:48:31.:48:34.

constructive way. But your pitch was you will be independent minded, you

:48:35.:48:38.

won't be in the pocket of the Government, of the day, or the

:48:39.:48:42.

medical profession. I am proud to be a Conservative. I make no bones

:48:43.:48:45.

about that, the point is when you are in a Select Committee role, I

:48:46.:48:49.

think that you should leave your tribal party politics behind because

:48:50.:48:55.

you are there to do a job on behalf of patients and taxpayers, you are

:48:56.:49:00.

holding health bodies to account. NHS England, the GMC, the regulators

:49:01.:49:04.

and understanding how the system work, having worked within it, I

:49:05.:49:08.

think gives you an advantage because you understand when people are not

:49:09.:49:11.

being straight with you apart from anything else. Did you get a lot of

:49:12.:49:16.

support from Labour MPs? I had support from across the house. I was

:49:17.:49:21.

ahead in all the rounds, so I think it, it wasn't as naive edge as

:49:22.:49:24.

perhaps it might be portrayed. It adds to the drama, you have been

:49:25.:49:30.

very critical at times of the government's health policy and the

:49:31.:49:35.

reforms and the Andrew Lansley reform, that is true isn't it? It

:49:36.:49:38.

was constructive criticism, part of the initial outing of the bill and

:49:39.:49:43.

make no bones about it, I had some concern, but you are not doing orjob

:49:44.:49:48.

if you don't bring the concerns forward. I think the bill was better

:49:49.:49:53.

after the pause to listen. Unless you express those concerns you are

:49:54.:49:59.

not doing your job properly. You said someone had tossed a grenade

:50:00.:50:04.

That was a miscoat. You obviously felt it wasn't the right way

:50:05.:50:07.

certainly to go about reforming the NHS in terms of those reforms and

:50:08.:50:13.

the upheaval. My view was that you can reorganise it, the NHS has been

:50:14.:50:18.

reorganised so many time, when I used to teach, I gave up teaching

:50:19.:50:22.

them the struckchur of the NHS because I knew it would have changed

:50:23.:50:28.

by the time they qualified. Any major reorganisation risks if you

:50:29.:50:32.

take your eye off the ball, there are many aspects to the reform I

:50:33.:50:37.

welcome, I felt some of its aims could have been achieved in other

:50:38.:50:40.

way, and it was my role, I think, to put some of those points forward. I

:50:41.:50:44.

hope I put them forward in a constructive way, that would be the

:50:45.:50:47.

way I think you should tackle these things. Do you welcome this

:50:48.:50:54.

appointment, sorry election? Like her, you know to be elected as the

:50:55.:50:59.

Speaker you couldn't do it on party vote. It is very, it gives you a

:51:00.:51:04.

strength and authority, having been elected as she was and she is a

:51:05.:51:09.

perfect example of what we were talking about before, which is

:51:10.:51:12.

someone who has got a solid career behind them and brings that to

:51:13.:51:15.

Parliament and works from that expertise. Let us look at the

:51:16.:51:20.

current state of the Health Service, particularly about funding. How

:51:21.:51:23.

worried are you about all the reports relating to the current

:51:24.:51:28.

funding gap within the NHS, ?2 billion is the figure put round?

:51:29.:51:31.

This is something the committee has been looking at. We are in our fifth

:51:32.:51:35.

year of near flat funding of the NHS. That would be the case whoever

:51:36.:51:38.

was in power. I remember the challenge being set out before I

:51:39.:51:42.

entered Parliament, so this is a long running issue, we spent nearly

:51:43.:51:47.

?110 billion on health but what we must be clear about is we get the

:51:48.:51:52.

best value and address things like safety agenda, how we get the

:51:53.:51:58.

structural changes... What the committee has found up to now is

:51:59.:52:03.

that a lot of those have been been achieved through wage restraint, and

:52:04.:52:06.

they haven't been sufficiently achieved with the sort of major

:52:07.:52:10.

shift we need have in more prevention work in the NHS and have

:52:11.:52:14.

people treated closer to home so they don't need to be in hospital in

:52:15.:52:18.

the fist place. That will take a long time, that is the way I am sure

:52:19.:52:23.

politics argue, but that will take time, how would you deal with the

:52:24.:52:28.

funding gap now? That heavy lifting hasn't been done. One of the jobs

:52:29.:52:31.

for the is Select Committee is holding those institutions to

:52:32.:52:35.

account, saying how are we making them happen? You may have heard of

:52:36.:52:43.

the Better Care fund, a shift into primary care and through social, how

:52:44.:52:48.

we get care in the community, but unless we see that money putting in

:52:49.:52:51.

place changes that people people don't have to go into hospital in

:52:52.:52:55.

the first place, the system will be under enormous pressure. Should the

:52:56.:53:00.

health budget be ring-fenced again? We spend about 9.4% of GDP on

:53:01.:53:05.

health. Whoever is in power we are unlikely to see that significantly

:53:06.:53:10.

change. What I would like to see is more ring-fencing within social care

:53:11.:53:14.

budget, because what happens there has knock on effects on the Health

:53:15.:53:19.

Service. Thank you. Right we are getting news of a

:53:20.:53:23.

security alert in Westminster. A device has been found in the main

:53:24.:53:30.

visitor centre, in Westminster Hall, near Westminster Hall the oldest

:53:31.:53:35.

part of Parliament. Going back to medieval times with the beautiful

:53:36.:53:39.

wooden ceiling there, MPs sit there as well as in the Commons chamber,

:53:40.:53:43.

parts of the Westminster, the Palace of Westminster are being cleared,

:53:44.:53:47.

the police are saying this is not a drill, this is real, but we don't

:53:48.:53:52.

know whether that device is of importance or not. It is disrupting

:53:53.:53:56.

things at the moment, we will keep you across that. Now, Mr Paxman has

:53:57.:54:02.

left Newsnight and we are only on for a mere six hours a day, six days

:54:03.:54:07.

a week, many politicians feel they don't have enough tough questions at

:54:08.:54:13.

them, come on in. They are resorting to go in radio phone in shows so the

:54:14.:54:18.

public can bombard them with questions on housing to whether they

:54:19.:54:21.

have a onesie, Boris Johnson and Nick Clegg have their regular slots

:54:22.:54:28.

on radio now Harriet Harman said she will have a go. We will talk to her

:54:29.:54:33.

in a moment. That security alert allowing, it will have to be on the

:54:34.:54:36.

phone. Let us look at how the politicians have got on so far.

:54:37.:54:46.

It is Boris here from Islington, I want to ask you, when are you going

:54:47.:54:50.

to get all those Government ministers out of their OK Olympo-s

:54:51.:54:58.

and on to public transport. -- limos. He is not on the line. No, he

:54:59.:55:04.

recorded it earlier. We want the opportunity to express a point of

:55:05.:55:08.

view on behalf... I am grateful for that Bob. There is a table to be sat

:55:09.:55:14.

round, by you and your team. We can't do it while you put a gun to

:55:15.:55:19.

our head. When did you last buy underwear from

:55:20.:55:25.

marks and Spencers because they have posted poor trading figures as you

:55:26.:55:30.

may be aware. The trouble with Twitter the instantness of it is, I

:55:31.:55:36.

think, too many twits might make a (BLEEP).

:55:37.:55:41.

You said I forgot my anniversary and I ask you to hold that thought. We

:55:42.:55:46.

have had a special cake and I must thank the Cake Store based in

:55:47.:55:51.

Sydenham. The first time you appeared the final question was do

:55:52.:55:58.

you own a onesie, you replied yes. This is to celebrate our first, you

:55:59.:56:01.

will wish we never started this. There you are in your onesie, and I

:56:02.:56:08.

wonder if I could ask you to cut the cake. Can Nick Clegg eat a bacon

:56:09.:56:12.

sandwich and how will it work on the radio? One bite. I will try. Very

:56:13.:56:22.

good! Didn't his mother tell him never to

:56:23.:56:26.

speak but mouth full. We had hoped to be joined by Harriet Harman who

:56:27.:56:30.

was going to the third of our national politicians to get their

:56:31.:56:34.

own radio show but she has been detained in the Palace of

:56:35.:56:37.

Westminster because of that security alert, so, it is down to you to talk

:56:38.:56:44.

about this! Would you like to have your own radio show? I am not sure I

:56:45.:56:47.

would like to have it now, because you are on television as well,

:56:48.:56:50.

because everyone can watch you and see you. It is all done on

:56:51.:56:56.

webcameras I used to love doing radio, because you couldn't be seen,

:56:57.:57:02.

you got more time to talk, a little more length about things and even

:57:03.:57:08.

when I was a minister and you had to do the Today programme at 7.30 in

:57:09.:57:12.

the morning, it could be a dressing gown in the radio car job. You can't

:57:13.:57:18.

do it on in sort of stuff now. Why do you think they want to do it? Why

:57:19.:57:25.

do they think... ? I think partly they want to cut out the middle man.

:57:26.:57:29.

They do. That is why we are against it Absolutely, I can see that. We

:57:30.:57:36.

are Luddites when it comes to this I can see that. Back to Ed Miliband

:57:37.:57:44.

and the sort of press that he gets. But equally, to have, to be able to

:57:45.:57:49.

connect directly with individuals, which you can do on a phone in, I

:57:50.:57:56.

think is sort of gold dust, it is high risk, because you can get it

:57:57.:58:01.

very wrong. You get asked questions like have you got a onesie, what is

:58:02.:58:09.

the answer? Me? ! God forbid! All right. Let us. I like you selected

:58:10.:58:14.

that one from the list of questions. The other was can you eat a bacon

:58:15.:58:18.

sandwich? That is it for today. Our thanks to our guest, the one clock

:58:19.:58:23.

news is starting on BBC One now, but listen carefully, I am back tonight

:58:24.:58:32.

for This Week with Michael Portillo, Diane Abbott and guests, and the

:58:33.:58:42.

star of The Killing. Maybe she will wear one of her famous jumpers. This

:58:43.:58:47.

is the bit we are not on BBC One because of something happening in

:58:48.:58:52.

Brazil. We are on BBC Two after Newsnight.

:58:53.:58:54.

See you then. Goodbye.

:58:55.:58:57.

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