Browse content similar to 11/09/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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good afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics. President | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
good afternoon, welcome to the Daily United States will extend attacks on | :00:46. | :00:52. | |
the -- into Syria, should written joining with the militants? Some of | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
Scotland's biggest financial institutions say they will relocate | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
part of their business to England if there is a yes vote. Is the momentum | :01:01. | :01:06. | |
swinging back to the no campaign? 1400 children abused in Rotherham by | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
gangs of men of Pakistani heritage will stop was political correctness | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
to blame for a lack of action by police and the local council? | :01:15. | :01:21. | |
And why can politics make us so dam angry? | :01:22. | :01:28. | |
All that in the next hour. With us for the whole of the programme | :01:29. | :01:34. | |
today, someone who David Cameron once told his party they should | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
learn to love, Polly Toynbee, welcome to the programme. | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
The chairman of John Lewis, Charlie Mayfield, has warned of the | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
likelihood of higher prices in its Scottish stores in an independent | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
Scotland. Those claims have been dismissed by the pro-independence | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
campaign but it is the latest in a number of warnings to the business | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
community about the impact of a yes vote. At the beginning of the week, | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
the yes campaign was in buoyant spirits with polls suggesting a | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
narrow lead for independence. The last 24-hour 's have slightly | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
dampened the mood. Three of Scotland's biggest financial | :02:12. | :02:13. | |
institutions have confirmed they would move parts of their business | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
south of the border if Scotland votes yes. The Royal Bank of | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
Scotland would move its head office and registered office to London. | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
Lloyds would move its legal home to its head office which is already in | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
London. Standard life said it would create companies in England to | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
protect its customers. Governor of the Bank of England Mark Carney told | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
MPs on the Treasury committee that in the event of a yes vote, Scotland | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
would need to amass billions of pounds of currency in reserves. And | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
a new poll shows a 6 Point lead for the no campaign. SNP leader Alex | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
Salmond has hit back, saying the leader of these offers -- the move | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
of these offices would have no impact on jobs or services. He was | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
sounding confident of a yes vote in XP's poll. -- next week's poll. | :03:02. | :03:08. | |
Scotland is on the cusp of making history, the eyes of the world are | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
upon Scotland and what Scotland is saying is an articulate, peaceful, | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
energise debate. Scotland will vote yes next Thursday. And they will | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
vote yes because last-minute cobbled up promises from the no campaign, | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
which unravel at the slightest scrutiny, will not throw anyone in | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
this country and neither will be latent bullying and intimidation of | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
the Westminster government. Joining me from Glasgow is the | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
Liberal Democrat MP and former leader of the Liberal Democrats, | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
Charles Kennedy. Welcome to the Daily Politics. He is sounding ever | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
so confident. Yes and good luck to him. I am one of those who always | :03:50. | :03:52. | |
thought this would be a very tight on the night finish and so will | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
prove. As we go into the last week, we are hearing noises from outside | :03:57. | :04:03. | |
the political circus, warning us as to what may or may not be the | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
locations. Scots will have to weigh those up for themselves, take them | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
seriously. I also think, this is why have been campaigning in Glasgow | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
this morning, we have got to be positive, both about what the union | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
has brought for Scotland over the centuries, and what Scotland has | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
brought to the union and how much more we can still achieve together. | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
Do you think it has been too negative, all about the risks and | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
warnings that Alistair Darling and the Better Together campaign have | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
run a downbeat campaign? I don't think they have run a downbeat, | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
negative campaign. I think we have asked all of the pertinent westerns | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
that need to be asked, we have asked them repeatedly and have not had | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
many concise answers, that is putting it diplomatically. I think | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
at the same time -- the pertinent questions. There is a case for | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
taking things forward after the referendum. Not just those of us in | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
the no camp. An awful lot of Scots and civic Scotland, many of whom | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
will vote yes, but they should have an input as well into how we get | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
Scotland onto a better footing within a UK that is on a better | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
footing. That seems to be moving in a more federal correction. You say | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
there should be a more positive note sounded. The Better Together | :05:28. | :05:29. | |
campaign and your colleagues have said there is great uncertainty and | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
that is underlined by the reaction from some businesses and financial | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
institutions. Is what you are offering now, postal votes have been | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
cast before the offer, is it any more certain, there are three | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
different versions of what extended powers Scotland would have in the | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
event of a no vote. Actually the truth is there is more uncertainty | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
with what you are offering. I would not have started from where we are | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
right now left to myself. I argued it was better to have an agreed | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
package. But even if we have a finally agreed package amongst the | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
three principal UK parties, that would not be the end. We couldn't | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
absolutely say, there is the deal, seal it, because you would still | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
have to go out after the referendum and consult many people who had | :06:19. | :06:21. | |
voted yes, to get their input as well. Because all the experience in | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
Scotland and indeed elsewhere in the UK shows that to get good lasting | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
constitutional change, you have got to go beyond the boundaries of one | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
bit of the argument. You have got to try to embrace positively as many | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
people from other parts, too. Let's talk about certainty. Scottish | :06:43. | :06:45. | |
voters want to know how it will affect them directly and be Better | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
Together campaign has said it can give guarantees. What guarantee can | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
you give in terms of powers over levels of taxation for Scotland if | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
they vote to stay together? The level of guarantee is simply this. | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
You have the Conservative Party, Labour Party and Liberal Democrats | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
and whatever the arithmetic of the next House of Commons, all are | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
agreed that there is going to have to be a greater share of tax raised | :07:09. | :07:15. | |
within Scotland. How much? As I said, you can't begin the detailed | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
discussions on that until after the referendum. Not just because of the | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
three parties, but because of the wider interests in the trade union | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
movement, in business, in civic Scotland as a whole that are going | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
to have to be involved. You have also got to look at how this impacts | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
on the rest of the United Kingdom, too. In Wales, Northern Ireland, the | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
regions and across England as a whole. There is a great deal more | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
work to be done. We have a settled base camp and that is next Thursday, | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
a week to day. That is Scotland staying in the UK. Let's have the | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
answer is, yes we are, we are going to vote no. But then we are going to | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
take it forward. There are three different offers and there are | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
Scottish voters I have spoken to who are just not sure what will actually | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
come out of it, what will they get in terms of labour, depending on | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
what happens in 2015, their offer is lower in terms of power is lower in | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
terms of powers going to Scotland in the event of a no vote, and that | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
doesn't fill many Scottish voters with great reassurance. All I can | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
say is that in the real world, all three of us, the Conservative Party, | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
Labour Party, Liberal Democrats, we will have to compromise and we have | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
act knowledge that by signing what we have signed, at a UK level and a | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
Scottish level -- we have acknowledged that. We are going to | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
have to go wider than just ourselves to win wider acceptance. The no | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
vote, having this referendum behind us, will in fact bolster that. Alex | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
Salmond, from his point of view, talks about having a mandate to | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
negotiate independence. The application being, he negotiates and | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
then he comes back. There is no coming back, there is no going back. | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
Whatever is negotiated, that is it. In our case we have a mandate, to | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
agree amongst ourselves as the political parties, but that mandate | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
must extend beyond us if it is to win the commonweal, if it is to win | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
wider acceptance. That is the business we are on. Stay with us, I | :09:23. | :09:33. | |
think we have Dennis Canon from the yes campaign. I don't know how much | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
of Charles Kennedy you were able to hear. I didn't hear any of it, | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
unfortunately. Let's start from the beginning, then. Statements from | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
businesses like RBS, Lloyds and standard life. Do you agree that | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
what they have said only serves to underline the uncertainty that would | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
result in a yes vote? I think it has got to be clear, first of all, that | :09:56. | :10:03. | |
RBS have indicated that there will be no transfer of jobs or operations | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
out of Scotland. If there is a degree of uncertainty, I think it is | :10:08. | :10:14. | |
Charles's coalition government and his colleague, Danny Alexander and | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
his boss, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who are responsible. All | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
of the Unionist parties have ganged up against the democratically | :10:25. | :10:26. | |
elected Scottish Government and said, in effect, no way will we have | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
a currency union. And that is what is causing the uncertainty, because | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
there is a great leap throughout Scotland that these politicians in | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
Westminster are just bluffing, and that when we get a yes vote, the | :10:43. | :10:50. | |
reality will kick in and good Liberal Democrat MPs like Charles | :10:51. | :10:53. | |
will save for the good of Scotland and the good of the MP, let's go | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
with this currency union. Let's put that to Charles Kennedy. Will you | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
and your colleagues at Westminster immediately say, let's talk currency | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
union? I am sorry. Because of a lot of internal BBC chatter, I come to, | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
missed what it was you were talking with Dennis about so can you bring | :11:15. | :11:21. | |
up to speed? -- I, too, missed what it was. The line is that you have | :11:22. | :11:28. | |
ganged up on the currency issue and it is your full that there is this | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
uncertainty that has led to businesses saying they may have to | :11:32. | :11:34. | |
move part of their business, and that when there is a yes vote on the | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
19th, you will all fall into line and start talking currency union. | :11:40. | :11:46. | |
Dennis is one of my favourite stars in politics and always has been, I | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
will not hear a word against him but what I will say is I think he has | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
had some distinct ideas of his own about his preferred option for a | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
Scottish currency. After this referendum, if it was yes, we | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
achieved independence. The fact of the matter is, let's deal with the | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
world as we know it. Not what the politicians are saying, but what | :12:09. | :12:11. | |
business and commerce are pointing out. That is the most reliable guide | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
on which we can base future progress. That is the world is at | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
least highly uncertain. I find it interesting that the yes campaign, | :12:20. | :12:25. | |
led by Alex Salmond, are saying the best option for Scotland and | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
currency is the option we have got. Agreed, agreed. So let's keep it. | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
Let's not upturned the applecart by voting for independence. Alex | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
Salmond is the head of the Scottish Government. He is leading the | :12:40. | :12:46. | |
campaign. It was his idea to have the referendum. Assuming we get a | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
yes result in that referendum, he will have a mandate to lead the | :12:52. | :12:57. | |
negotiations. He has made it perfectly clear that his preferred | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
option is to have sterling within a currency union. Nobody can stop | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
Scotland using sterling because it is an international tradable | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
currency. The point is the desirability or otherwise of a | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
currency union. They have a situation whereby Charles's party | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
leader and the Tory Party leader, and low and behold the Labour Party | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
leader are all saying we are not going to have this. It is complete | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
nonsense. Cutting off their nose to spite their face. It is in | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
everybody's interest to have a currency union. Even if you say that | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
the businesses that have voiced some doubt about what they would do with | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
some jobs and services, you say jobs would be lost but symbolically it is | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
not exactly a vote of the buttons in the idea of an independent Scotland. | :13:51. | :13:59. | |
-- vote of confidence. All of this has cast doubt on the economic case | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
put by Alex Salmond that there is going to be jam and honey tomorrow. | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
These are just some business people. The truth of the matter is that the | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
business community in Scotland is divided. There are those who are | :14:12. | :14:14. | |
very much in favour of a yes vote, those who are against, and some | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
people say it won't make much difference. That Scotland will | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
flourish within or without the union. Frankly there is a host of | :14:22. | :14:28. | |
business spokespeople in Scotland, we have an organisation called | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
business for Scotland, who are in favour of Scottish independence | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
because they believe that what is holding Scotland back at present is | :14:37. | :14:42. | |
this kind of dependency culture, and the financial straitjacket in which | :14:43. | :14:45. | |
we are, whereas with independence, it would release a new | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
entrepreneurial spirit within Scotland, we would see more business | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
start-ups, we would see business flourishing and that would create | :14:54. | :14:54. | |
more jobs in Scotland. Let me go to the opinion polls. | :14:55. | :15:04. | |
Charles Kennedy, did the "no" campaign panic? Now we've had | :15:05. | :15:07. | |
another opinion poll which has changed slightly in terms of who is | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
ahead. Was there a panic? Have they offered too much to a potentially, | :15:14. | :15:20. | |
if they vote "no", in terms of powers without knowing, and basing | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
too much on one opinion poll? I don't think too much has been | :15:25. | :15:26. | |
offered in terms of powers but you're talking to a federalist here. | :15:27. | :15:32. | |
But did they panic? I don't think so. The way I would draw the analogy | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
is this - if you are driving a car and you suddenly have to take | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
unexpected action to avoid a collision you weren't anticipating | :15:42. | :15:44. | |
and you do so calmly, professionally and no collision happens, you didn't | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
panic but you changed the mode of your direction at very short notice. | :15:50. | :15:56. | |
Now, when opinion polls started showing, it would be an insult to | :15:57. | :15:59. | |
the intelligence of people in Scotland that it didn't have an | :16:00. | :16:02. | |
effect on everybody campaigning in Scotland. We were neck and neck or | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
possibly behind the stop if we had said we were sailing on regardless | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
and not taking any avoidance of what might be an unfortunate mishap in | :16:13. | :16:15. | |
front of us if we didn't do something, we would be accused of | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
complacency and contempt. Let me ask Dennis Canavan, do you think the | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
"yes" campaign has peaked too soon? We still have some days to campaign | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
and now everything, including the kitchen sink, is being thrown at | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
this campaign from the Better Together side. I don't think we've | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
peaked too soon. There is still a week to go. We are neck and neck. | :16:38. | :16:45. | |
When you look at the opinion polls not all that long ago, the other | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
side were 20 points ahead, so we have got the moment on our side, we | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
are closing the gap, we are going to work harder than ever to get every | :16:55. | :16:57. | |
undecided vote in Scotland and we are confident that we will win a | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
famous and historic victory a week today. Dennis Canavan and Charles | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
Kennedy, thank you very much. Polly Toynbee, your analysis - who's going | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
to win? We really don't know. As Dennis Canavan said, the momentum | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
has been behind "yes". As you suggested, they might have peaked | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
too soon. A lot of the heavyweight industries, the finance industry, | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
didn't want to come out and have to declare their hand at all. They | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
thought it would be dangerous, that they could lose business if they | :17:30. | :17:32. | |
found themselves on the wrong side of the result. What happened is | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
because of that one opinion poll that showed "yes" winning, it's | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
brought them all out saying really quite fierce things. What Mark | :17:42. | :17:44. | |
Carney said, what the banks have said about moving south - I think | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
it's quite alarming and I imagine there are some waverers who will be | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
swung. Thank you very much. Let's move on. A steady, relentless effort | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
is what President Obama says is needed to root out the extremists of | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
the so-called Islamic State who are operating in Iraq and Syria. In a | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
speech last night, the American president outlined his new | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
strategy, which includes extending the US led campaign of air into | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
Syria. He said the US will lead a broad Coalition to defeat the | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
terrorists, which could include British warplanes involved in air | :18:21. | :18:22. | |
strikes. We will degrade and ultimately | :18:23. | :18:24. | |
destroy ISIS through a sustained We will degrade and ultimately | :18:25. | :18:31. | |
counterterrorism strategy. First, we will conduct a systematic campaign | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
of air strikes against these terrorists. Working with the Iraqi | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
government, we will expand our efforts beyond protecting our own | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
people and him and Terry emissions, so that we're hitting ISIS targets | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
as Iraqi forces go on offence. I've made it clear that we will hunt down | :18:50. | :18:52. | |
terrorists who threaten our country, wherever they are. That means I will | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
not hesitate to take action against ISIS in Syria as well as Iraq. A | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
short while ago, I spoke to our correspondent Quentin Sommerville in | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
Baghdad. I asked how the government there would respond to the speech by | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
President Obama. This will be greatly welcomed and the Iraqi | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
leadership, this new Iraqi unity government, at least on paper, | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
welcomed Secretary of State John Kerry yesterday and he would have | :19:21. | :19:22. | |
been given a full briefing. They have been making a very clear for | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
quite some time that Iraq alone cannot handle the threat from the | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
Islamic State but also the overspill of the conflict in Syria. They said | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
the international community needs to provide them assistance. Iraq had to | :19:37. | :19:43. | |
do its part and for many years now, the government here in Iraq has | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
exploited sectarian and ethnic divisions and created a huge gap and | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
in that gap the Islamic State spared in and exploited the divisions. A | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
lot of repair has to be done to bring back this country and then | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
Iraq can think about, with a larrikin help, tackling the threat | :20:03. | :20:05. | |
of the Islamic State. -- American help. You said the unity government | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
on paper. How much trust is there among Sunnis in Iraq that it will | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
deliver that inclusive government? The proof of the pudding, really. | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
They've got very little credit in the bank. When you look at this | :20:22. | :20:27. | |
government, many of the faces seem familiar but when you actually | :20:28. | :20:29. | |
travel on the ground in Iraq, say you go to northern Iraq in some of | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
the areas where is the state are operating, we've been there, near | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
Mosul, and speak to Christians, years Edie is, -- years Edies. You | :20:40. | :20:49. | |
find they are fleeing for their lives and have very little trust in | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
the Iraqi government to protect them, never mind defend them against | :20:53. | :21:00. | |
IS. There is a long shopping list before people can actually feel safe | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
in this country again. There is a big question - who is going to go in | :21:06. | :21:07. | |
and liberate Mosul? Would be an Iraqi army made up of the Shia | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
majority, going into liberate a Sunni people from the Islamic State? | :21:13. | :21:19. | |
That doesn't have a lot of credibility and doesn't address the | :21:20. | :21:26. | |
fears of the Iraqi people. Joining me now is the Conservative MP John | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
Barron, who sits on the foreign affairs select committee, and Bayan | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
Sami Rahman, the Kurdish regional government's high representative to | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
the UK. John Barron, you support air strikes against IS in Iraq but not | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
in Syria. What would be the point of that? The point is that the | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
immediate objective is to drive IS out of Iraq. When I say I support | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
them, I think there is room for regional players, friends and | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
allies, to play a much more prominent role. So do you support | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
British air strikes with the Americans in Iraq? I would first | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
want to see and check cost as much as we could of our regional our | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
regional our eyes. We've just seen the American allies. -- check we've | :22:09. | :22:17. | |
asked as much as we could have our regional allies. In answer to your | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
question about Syria, I think it takes it on to another level | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
altogether. Of course we can agree with the broad strategy of President | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
Obama, we've got to take on IS, but strikes in Syria risk Russian built | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
or Russian supplied air defence systems. There are legal issues to | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
address. But also, air strikes alone aren't going to defeat this | :22:42. | :22:43. | |
well-organised guerrilla army and we don't know who will replace ISIS in | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
Syria. Many extremists lurk in the shadows. Bayan Sami Rahman, is there | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
any point in joining air strikes against IS in Iraq or parts of Iraq, | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
without trying to defeat them in Syria? No, in my view you need to | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
strike at ISIS at their nerve centre. They are very powerful in | :23:04. | :23:10. | |
Syria. They have access to oil, access to wealth, and are able to | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
cross the board are freely. So if we're only going to contain them in | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
Iraq, that's containment. They will then stay in Syria, expand into | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
Lebanon and Jordan. We need to strike at ISIS in the heart of where | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
they are. What do you say to that? We got to balance what is desirable | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
with what is achievable and given our errors in the past, whether it's | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
going to war in Iraq on a false premise or the disastrous mission in | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
Afghanistan or Libya, you got to approach this with caution. Our | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
immediate objective is a responsibility to the Iraqi people, | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
given our misguided intervention in 2003. We should focus on driving | :23:50. | :23:55. | |
ISIS out of northern Iraq. Local forces, regional forces - including | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
the 250,000 strong Iraqi army - should conduct that campaign. The | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
air strikes in Syria take it on to another level of risk and danger | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
which we should be very rare -- wary about. There was a lot of cautious | :24:09. | :24:13. | |
feeling among the public here and quite a lot of MPs for the reasons | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
John Barron has outlined. Do use of the pies with that to a certain | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
extent, why there is some reluctance before going headlong into another | :24:22. | :24:24. | |
conflict? Of course I do understand that. I've been a representative of | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
the Kurdistan Regional Government since 2005, so I've seen all of the | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
debate internally about Tony Blair being a liar, George Bush being a | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
warmonger, but the fact is - and what I believe politicians in the | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
West generally, including the UK, failed to do - is they've failed to | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
explain to the public that nonintervention also has a cross. | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
Nonintervention in Syria early on has let ISIS to grow and has led to | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
a spill-over of the conflict in Iraq. We in Iraq are paying the | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
price for nine to mention in Syria when the time was right. Does the | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
Labour Party have a responsibility in that? It decided, and Ed | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
Miliband, not to back any potential action against Bashar Al-Assad, and | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
it has led to what we are facing now? I don't think the Labour Party | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
or the other MPs in the Commons who voted against it, considerable | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
numbers of Conservatives and Lib Dems to, have any sense of regret. I | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
think there is a very keen awareness, born of painful | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
experience in Iraq, but you need really good military advice, as John | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
was suggesting, that says attacking them by air will make a difference | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
and there really is no evidence of that. What happens if you do big | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
bombing raids is that you had a lot of civilians, and you change the | :25:44. | :25:50. | |
politics in the area. Western intervention is very, very | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
dangerous. Unless you know you can absolutely do what it is you're | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
going to achieve... There is evidence IS has been pushed back. We | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
had evidence from the Kurds but also other groups in Iraq. We know that | :26:05. | :26:12. | |
the bombings have pushed them back and, arguably, these dreadful | :26:13. | :26:15. | |
beheadings that we have seen are as a result of panic, if you like, on | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
the side of IS. Yes, there's no doubt about it - the air strikes | :26:22. | :26:24. | |
have had the effect of checking IS and driving them back a bit, | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
perhaps. That is to be welcome. What many of us in the House of Commons | :26:29. | :26:31. | |
are saying is that we've got to restrict our activities to Iraq and | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
accept the fact that you cannot defeat a well-organised guerrilla | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
army such as ISIS by air strikes alone. This is not a disparate group | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
of terrorists living in caves. This is well organised and well funded | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
and we've got to realise the limitations of our power. ISIS is | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
strong in northern Iraq not because we didn't intervene in Syria. | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
Really? If we had intervened in Syria, we would have been siding, | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
unintentionally, with many of the terrorists we're now taking on in | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
northern Iraq. What led to ISIS making such ground was the sectarian | :27:06. | :27:08. | |
politics of the premieres premise of Iraq. -- previous. Doesn't that make | :27:09. | :27:15. | |
it now nigh on impossible for a British Government? We've had a | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
Labour MP saying we may need site with Bashar al-Assad to defeat IS, | :27:21. | :27:23. | |
not that that is the Labour Party's position. But if you go in and bomb | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
IS, there are other Sunni militants who could come to the fall. It's a | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
minefield. It is, and the world is accommodated place. I'm sorry but | :27:35. | :27:36. | |
the British public have to accept that the world isn't a clean place | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
and the good guys in the white hats defeat the Cowboys and the white -- | :27:43. | :27:50. | |
blackouts. There is a Shia-Sunni conflict. The Western world does | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
have a role to play. You cannot run the world based on values alone. You | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
need to lead militarily to stop when I talk about intervention in Syria | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
I'm talking about the early days, not when the whole thing came out of | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
control. We're not talking just about air strikes, we're talking | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
right now in Iraq. We have Iraqi and Kurdish Peshmerga fighting on the | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
ground, supported by air strikes. We push them to the border | :28:22. | :28:24. | |
ground, supported by air strikes. We they will come back. They need to be | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
demoralised in Syria as well. What about arming the Peshmerga? Should | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
we have done that much earlier? We saw reports from the border saying, | :28:33. | :28:39. | |
"we need arms now. We cannot halt IS unless we have a lot more | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
ammunition". What we can agree is that there are no easy answers. | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
Arming the Peshmerga, fine, but what you are doing is taking a step | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
closer to the old regional fault lines and Iraq breaking up into its | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
three constituent parts. You got to recognise that there are downsides | :28:56. | :28:57. | |
to each of these policies but what we've got to learn from past | :28:58. | :29:04. | |
interventions is that we have intervened and, actually, I would | :29:05. | :29:10. | |
argue - whether it is Iraq all the mission in Afghanistan, or even | :29:11. | :29:13. | |
Libya, where the Libyan parliament is now taking refuge in a Greek | :29:14. | :29:16. | |
ferry - we have not made things better. We have got to be more | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
balanced and nuanced and are approaching when it comes to ISIS, | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
yes, play an active role in driving them out of northern Iraq but it has | :29:26. | :29:28. | |
to be local forces on the ground doing that. Be very wary of going | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
into Syria, if only because it would represent a complete U-turn on our | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
policy last year. John Barron and Bayan Sami Rahman, thank you very | :29:38. | :29:40. | |
much. Louise Casey, the former victims | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
commissioner, has been appointed to conduct an independent inspection | :29:46. | :29:47. | |
into children's services at Rotherham Council. She'll also look | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
at what wider lessons can be learned about child protection, following | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
the revelation that 1400 children were abused in the borough between | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
1997 and 2013, mainly by gangs of men of Pakistani heritage. Police | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
and council officials appeared in front of select committees over the | :30:06. | :30:08. | |
last couple of days, accused of failing to act to stop the abuse | :30:09. | :30:09. | |
despite numerous warnings. This is not something I would have | :30:10. | :30:17. | |
turned a blind eye to, nor something I would have wilfully ignored. With | :30:18. | :30:21. | |
respect to the evidence you have been given, those who know me | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
personally know I would not turn a blind eye cover up incidents of | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
child grooming. I take no pleasure from this. I have had a 32 year | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
police career, and yet on this issue, I have singularly failed the | :30:35. | :30:40. | |
victims of these criminals. And it hurts, bearing | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
Bearing in mind you were the deputy head of children's services from | :30:47. | :30:55. | |
children's -- from 2006, you have known about this all along, you are | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
one of the threads in respect of what has been happening. Why are you | :31:00. | :31:05. | |
still in post? I am not stepping aside for the simple reason I remain | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
accountable to the children, people and families of Rotherham. I take | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
personal responsible to for every incident of child abuse and I worked | :31:14. | :31:20. | |
tirelessly with my staff. I take my responsible at his very seriously | :31:21. | :31:26. | |
and I do not intend to resign... Some very significant, tragic | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
failings within the Council. The reason we are here is because of the | :31:30. | :31:36. | |
victims. Those people, before the select committee. With me are former | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
MP and Cryer, who raise concerns about the grooming of teenage girls | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
by Asian men in her constituency in Keighley as early as 2002, and Susan | :31:47. | :31:58. | |
Evans, deputy chairman of UKIP. Ann Cryer, you raise this issue ten | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
years ago, what was the response? It was 12 years ago, actually. The | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
lease and social services's response was minimal -- police and social | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
services. I got on board Justin Rowlatt, who now works for the BBC, | :32:13. | :32:17. | |
and he made a short film about the mothers who had come to see me, | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
reporting the abuse of their very young daughters. 12 or 13-year-olds. | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
That film that just didn't make it the trick, it got West Yorkshire | :32:26. | :32:31. | |
Police and Bradford social services on board and after a further two | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
years, it did take a while, I think five of the men were sent down. I do | :32:36. | :32:41. | |
remember you trying to raise these issues at the time. What do you | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
think actually motivated the inaction, if you like, I social | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
services and council and police, at the time? It is what has been said | :32:50. | :32:57. | |
about Rotherham. People who are not racist are generally afraid of being | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
called racist, that is the truth of the matter. I hated it because I | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
knew that the Pakistani community in Keighley at the time would probably | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
because me a racist. I have no evidence of that but I dare say that | :33:11. | :33:13. | |
is what happened. And of course it is terrible. If you genuinely | :33:14. | :33:23. | |
believe in a fair deal for everyone in your constituency, and you do | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
your best for them, it is awful to think you're going to be as a | :33:27. | :33:32. | |
racist, simply because you raised the issue of girls being abused in | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
this way. It is shocking and that is what has been raised, the idea that | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
people could be labelled for merely bringing up, and what has proven to | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
be true in many cases, the fact that they were men of mainly Pakistani | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
heritage involved in this abuse. Absolutely. Ann Cryer has been | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
exceptionally brave all along and whole lot of these issues, she has | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
been unafraid and had a lot of trouble as a result and I think she | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
is magnificent. One of the problems is that the number of rotten | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
boroughs that there are, where politicians collude with so-called | :34:07. | :34:09. | |
leaders of ethnic communities, who are not really leaders at all, they | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
are not leaders of large parts of it, but they can deliver votes, or | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
they think they can deliver votes. That is partly because we don't have | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
a proportional representative system which breaks up some of these solid | :34:22. | :34:26. | |
locks, in this case Labour, in some places Tory -- solid blocks. Does it | :34:27. | :34:34. | |
come down to political correct this? Actually stopping people being able | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
to do their jobs? Was that the reason in Rotherham that people | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
didn't want to dig any deeper? We have heard from Denis McShane, the | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
former MP, saying I was a left leading Guardian reader, it wasn't | :34:48. | :34:50. | |
the sort of thing we looked into, that political correctness was to | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
blame? I think partly but it was very much these deals with so-called | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
leaders. The leaders wouldn't allow any slur on anything that was going | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
on in their community and Labour backed off. I'll say think there is | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
a lot of political incorrectness. How these goals were treated was | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
extraordinarily sexist and classist. -- these girls. These are rubbish | :35:11. | :35:18. | |
girls, in care, wild and reckless, there was no idea that these are | :35:19. | :35:21. | |
children in our care and perfection. That seems to be the most important | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
thing, the way these girls were utterly despised, both by their | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
abusers but also by the authorities. I am delighted that Holly has | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
brought up this issue of sexism and class, because I think that is | :35:35. | :35:40. | |
right. -- Polly. We try to label it as being entirely to blame at our | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
peril, there were other issues as well and Polly has accurately picked | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
up on one of them. There are issues about the night-time economy. I | :35:49. | :35:51. | |
personally feel there are issues around what Michael the anaesthetise | :35:52. | :35:57. | |
agents of economy -- the -- around what I call. People see such cases | :35:58. | :35:59. | |
time and again that what I call. People see such cases | :36:00. | :36:12. | |
red flag flying. An MEP has made this quite clear, they need to stand | :36:13. | :36:19. | |
up and make them accountable. These so-called community leaders are not | :36:20. | :36:22. | |
democratically elected, they are put there... Nobody should accept... We | :36:23. | :36:31. | |
have just heard from the council director of children's services | :36:32. | :36:34. | |
saying she is not going to resign, yet she was there throughout this | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
period and the Ford ever -- throughout this whole period and for | :36:40. | :36:47. | |
whatever reason it was not recognised. It is also political | :36:48. | :36:56. | |
protectionism of your own people and own voters. As the left fostered | :36:57. | :37:02. | |
that? I don't know about the left, they are an old-fashioned corrupt | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
our working council, you can find the same in Tory councils that have | :37:07. | :37:12. | |
been Tory for ever as well. You have a solid block of old-fashioned power | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
that refuses to look at what is happening. But the left has | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
relentlessly pursued the ethnic vote and I think that is the cause of the | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
problem. I think you will find David Cameron is pursuing the ethnic vote | :37:26. | :37:28. | |
as well. You are probably the only ones who aren't. Do you think there | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
was that sort of atmosphere at the time, in your area and rather, too, | :37:35. | :37:39. | |
and it was the fear of being labelled a racist? There may be an | :37:40. | :37:42. | |
omen of a rotten borough but did that prevent issues coming to the | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
four? When I was elected first, the leader of the council said, I will | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
consult the Camino to. What he meant by that, and it nearly always was | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
that, he will pick up the phone and phone perhaps five men -- consult | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
the community. The women would have no say whatsoever. He would bring | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
those five men ask them their views, and then he had consulted the | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
community, in his view. It was wrong. We have moved on a bid from | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
then. We have about eight or nine women councillors of Asian Heritage, | :38:16. | :38:22. | |
which is terrific. After the next election we may have an Asian woman | :38:23. | :38:28. | |
MP, which would be great, in Bradford. We are moving on but this | :38:29. | :38:38. | |
particular community in Bradford and Keighley are extremely | :38:39. | :38:40. | |
paternalistic. We have to grasp that nettle and argue and make sure it is | :38:41. | :38:46. | |
understood that it is not the way of politics in Bradford and Keighley, | :38:47. | :38:49. | |
and things must change, and I think they are changing. Let me bring up | :38:50. | :38:56. | |
another example. In November 2012 Rotherham council removed three | :38:57. | :38:58. | |
children from foster parents because they were members of UKIP. I mention | :38:59. | :39:04. | |
the director of children's services who told the BBC at the time, her | :39:05. | :39:08. | |
decision was influenced by UKIP aberratio | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
-- influenced by UKIP's policy. If these were children of ethnic | :39:13. | :39:27. | |
minorities... I think they it is a bit different. I don't see why. They | :39:28. | :39:33. | |
are either good foster parents or they are not. What matters is | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
whether or not you are a good parent. I all accounts these foster | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
parents work and I gather they are being foster parents again, although | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
I think in a different borough. I don't know the case but if it were a | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
case of foster parents who had any instinctive sense against particular | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
foreigners, I would think it not a good idea to put foreign children | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
with them. UKIP doesn't have anything against Eastern Europeans, | :40:01. | :40:03. | |
this is the problem, it has been so misrepresented. Except you go into | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
areas where there is strong Eastern European... We are against mass | :40:10. | :40:15. | |
immigration. , we're not against anyone from eastern Europe and we | :40:16. | :40:22. | |
have been misrepresented on that. In East Anglia you are really targeting | :40:23. | :40:31. | |
people who are not Eastern European? We talked about when they were | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
joining the European Union, how they would be an open door, it could have | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
been any other two countries. You sound so reasonable but you are so | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
unlike the leaflets that you and your party are putting up. Thank you | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
very much. Pay attention, you lot, because I am | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
not repeating myself. Politics has got angry and it is your fault. | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
Sorry about the tone but you see my point. As our guest of the day knows | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
well, some people can take an aggressive dislike to people who | :41:03. | :41:05. | |
inhabit the political landscape or write about it. It is us, the | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
public, or have politicians got to wound up and has the advent of | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
social media meant we can vent spleen whenever we like? | :41:15. | :41:20. | |
The world of politics is not just populated by politicians but a press | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
that provides opinion formers and commentators. They are often | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
strident and dogmatic in their views, as are their counterparts, | :41:30. | :41:36. | |
but how often have you seen or had this reaction? That person is so | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
annoying, they are wrong about pretty much everything, I actually | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
think I hate them! I might even tell them that. And now with Twitter and | :41:45. | :41:52. | |
Facebook and links to the comments section of newspapers and | :41:53. | :41:54. | |
politicians who willingly use social media, we can, and we do tell people | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
in no uncertain terms what we think of them. By and large you are | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
talking about people who are older, they are male, they are right wing, | :42:05. | :42:11. | |
they have a sense that everything is somehow getting away from them, that | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
people who have no right our user pin power and so on. Essentially | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
they are people who feel their potency slipping away and look for | :42:23. | :42:23. | |
somebody to blame -- they are You cover both sections, from the | :42:24. | :42:37. | |
left, who really dislike cute was that no matter what you say, if you | :42:38. | :42:43. | |
said free beer for the world of workers, they would say, I hate you! | :42:44. | :42:49. | |
Hold on, chaps, because it is mainly chaps. It is not just us but our | :42:50. | :42:55. | |
politics can get sharp at times. How about this, you are the weakest | :42:56. | :43:04. | |
link, goodbye? Mr Speaker... The house has noticed the Prime | :43:05. | :43:07. | |
Minister's remarkable transformation in the last few weeks from Stalin to | :43:08. | :43:18. | |
Mr Bean. You are a miserable pipsqueak of a man! When it gets | :43:19. | :43:25. | |
rowdy, the speaker is clear he thinks we do like it and want it | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
calmer and more reasonable. Order. That is what the public has a right | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
to expect of this house. We pretend we don't like bust ups, we think it | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
is bad, badly behaved, then we all watch it and we send each other | :43:40. | :43:46. | |
tweets about it. The vile sickos who populate Twitter, there is no green | :43:47. | :43:52. | |
ink defining them any more. It is the same typeface, whether you are | :43:53. | :43:58. | |
David Cameron or you are some revolting piece of work conducting | :43:59. | :44:04. | |
some vile vendetta. It is a fascinating subject and I would love | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
to tell you more, but frankly, you can all bog off. Charming! Joining | :44:09. | :44:18. | |
the psychologist Lucy Beresford. Polly, does it bother you, the | :44:19. | :44:21. | |
response that you get in response to your columns? | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
It does from time to time and it does, to some extent, altar what I | :44:26. | :44:33. | |
write. I'm very, very much more careful to not write anything | :44:34. | :44:36. | |
remotely personal, not to give away anything, that could allow them to | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
get that screwdriver in. When I read the comments after my column, are | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
lot of them are the same ones week after week. They are very often | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
absolutely vile. We have a moderator who takes out anything really | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
obscene or a threat to your life. I have had ones that have been threats | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
to my life. "Hope you get cancer," that kind of thing. Very nice. It is | :44:59. | :45:04. | |
upsetting and disturbing. The level of vitriol is kind of | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
incomprehensible. I don't, on the whole, right vitriolic or personal | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
stuff about people. I have, about three times in my life, written | :45:13. | :45:19. | |
really savage things about Peter Mandelson, Boris Johnson and another | :45:20. | :45:25. | |
person. Otherwise, I am genuinely not trying to stir things up. What | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
does that say about the state of human nature, if people are writing | :45:31. | :45:33. | |
that sort of savagery to be blight Polly Toynbee on a fairly regular | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
basis? There are two things. One is about the nature of politics, which | :45:39. | :45:41. | |
is generally quite impassioned, and the other is the nature of social | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
media at the moment, which almost excites and impulsivity. If I wanted | :45:47. | :45:51. | |
to send a letter in green ink, by the time I got my 17th page, I might | :45:52. | :45:57. | |
have got it off my chest. But now it takes me no time at all to tweet. | :45:58. | :46:00. | |
I've pressed the button before I've censored myself, doing the normal | :46:01. | :46:08. | |
human thing. But politics is about passion and it's also about our | :46:09. | :46:11. | |
sense of self. We hold beliefs about things and it's those beliefs that | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
make us feel connected and grounded to the world and if someone | :46:16. | :46:18. | |
challenges those beliefs, we're going to defend ourselves. Do you | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
think it is the immediacy of the response, the initial anger before | :46:24. | :46:29. | |
it had time to diminish, which means politics is actually ideological D | :46:30. | :46:32. | |
split that it was in the 1980s and 1990s. -- ideological. I think this | :46:33. | :46:43. | |
government was doing things well to the right of anything Margaret | :46:44. | :46:46. | |
Thatcher ever dared do so I think there is, underneath it, a very | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
strong right-wing ideological string anything to do with the state... | :46:52. | :46:58. | |
They do it to some extent to people on the left but I think people on | :46:59. | :47:02. | |
the left are less interested in spending their time on the Daily | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
Mail site than those to the right plunging into the Guardian. If you | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
weren't allowed to be anonymous and people knew that their families, | :47:12. | :47:17. | |
their brothers and sisters, their work colleagues, could see what they | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
are saying, it would calm the whole thing down. I would like an end to | :47:22. | :47:26. | |
anonymity. Do you think that is the problem, people feel masked by | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
social media, e-mails, Twitter, so they can say things they don't | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
really believe the person will ever read? They certainly have the | :47:36. | :47:38. | |
wherewithal to be anonymous and some people have to be anonymous and some | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
people have Twitter encourage a certain licentiousness but, at the | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
same time, there are a lot of people who want to stand out and proud and | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
say, "I am going to be a really nasty person". We have to leave it | :47:52. | :47:54. | |
there before it gets nasty. Thank you very much. | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
We know that the continuing saga over who should be the next Commons | :48:00. | :48:02. | |
clerk has been keeping you awake at night. Not familiar with the story? | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
Well, and Astrium called Carol Mills is the preferred candidate of the | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
Commons Speaker John Bercow for the role of clerk of the House of | :48:12. | :48:14. | |
Commons. The Clarke Access Chief Executive of the Commons but they | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
are also the person who advises MPs on procedure. But a growing number | :48:20. | :48:22. | |
of MPs are unhappy with the choice. They're concerned that Ms Mills | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
lacks the necessary Parliamentary knowledge to carry out the role. | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
Last night, Conservative MP Andrew Lansley, who sat on the panel that | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
interviewed her for the job, admit they might have chosen the wrong | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
person. It is no criticism of Carol Mills, who interviewed well, to say | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
that her knowledge of the constitutional procedural issues, as | :48:45. | :48:46. | |
required for clerk of the House, would not suffice. I took that view | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
but it is not supported by the majority of the selection panel. It | :48:52. | :48:55. | |
is particularly regrettable that the speakers sought expressly to water | :48:56. | :48:59. | |
down the 2011 requirement in the job description that the clerk should | :49:00. | :49:02. | |
have "detailed knowledge of the procedures and practices of the | :49:03. | :49:09. | |
House". He sought to replace the words "detailed knowledge" with | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
"awareness". I have to say the selection panel was not asked to | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
subject candidates to the same test as in 2011. The process for | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
appointment there was, in my view, it ill founded. Jesse Norman, the MP | :49:24. | :49:29. | |
who called for last by's debate over the choice of Commons clerk, joins | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
us from Westminster. This isn't about respective traditions of | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
Parliament, is it? It another way of putting the boot into John Bercow | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
because you don't like him. Nothing could be further from the truth. | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
There was a flawed procedure to choose the new clerk and there were | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
questions, as Andrew Lansley mentioned, and are widely | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
acknowledged, about whether she has any genuine qualifications for the | :49:54. | :49:56. | |
procedural and constitutional aspects of the job. We know that | :49:57. | :50:02. | |
she's had two enquiries launched into her conduct by the Australian | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
Parliament where she works and this was about clearing all that up and | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
putting the selection process and, indeed, the governance of the House, | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
on a proper constitutional basis. Stick a white we take your point | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
about the enquiries going on but she is a secretary for the department of | :50:20. | :50:22. | |
Parliamentary services and the biggest item coming up the clerk's | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
agenda is multi-million pound refurbishment of the Palace of | :50:28. | :50:29. | |
Westminster, which won't need an intimate knowledge of Parliamentary | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
protocol, will it? It's true that the business side | :50:35. | :50:37. | |
will be important and that's why the wiser heads in the Palace of | :50:38. | :50:40. | |
Westminster are going to set up a specific delivery authority to | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
commission this enormous piece of change and renewed infrastructure. | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
But if you think about what's really at stake, the question is, can | :50:50. | :50:53. | |
Parliament reinvent itself for the 21st century through this renewal | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
and restoration process? That requires a detailed understanding of | :50:58. | :51:03. | |
how Parliament works in Britain and this specific institutions and stop | :51:04. | :51:06. | |
it is the clerk's understanding and expertise that will really be in | :51:07. | :51:12. | |
play. We've done quite a few interviews on this in the last | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
couple of weeks since has returned. Is this really what MPs should be | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
spending their time on? There's a way of looking at it which says that | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
this is just petty nonsense and we should pay our attention to | :51:26. | :51:28. | |
international affairs and I don't disagree with much of that. The | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
question, however, is what the rules are under which Parliament itself | :51:34. | :51:36. | |
operates and Parliament is our supreme legislative body so, add | :51:37. | :51:40. | |
chilli, the question of who the clerk is is a profound matter for | :51:41. | :51:44. | |
the constitution and proper governance. -- actually. Other | :51:45. | :51:50. | |
governments across the Commonwealth rely on our clerk for advice on how | :51:51. | :51:53. | |
to run their Parliament so it turns out to run their Parliament so it | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
turns out how to get right. But isn't there some truth in what David | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
Blunkett says, which is that MPs wouldn't put up with how the House | :52:03. | :52:05. | |
of Commons were run if it were a business and that, to some extent, | :52:06. | :52:09. | |
echoes the electorate, you are switching of Parliamentary protocol | :52:10. | :52:12. | |
because it's compensated and outdated? That isn't a reason to not | :52:13. | :52:19. | |
care about Parliamentary protocol. It may be that in the Twitter age, | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
people just generally don't have the time to invest in these issues, | :52:25. | :52:27. | |
although frankly they know more about them now than they probably | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
have ever done in our history. David Blunkett was right in our history. | :52:32. | :52:34. | |
David Blunkett was writing part. 20 years ago, the House of Commons with | :52:35. | :52:41. | |
an ability to mess. It's now much better. -- and administrators at | :52:42. | :52:48. | |
mess. It can still continue to improve and that's part of the | :52:49. | :52:51. | |
argument that we'll be engaging with with this new select committee. All | :52:52. | :52:55. | |
right, Jesse Norman. No doubt we will do revisit this. Amongst | :52:56. | :53:03. | |
political journalists of a certain vintage, this Scottish referendum | :53:04. | :53:05. | |
campaign has conjured up a feeling of deja vu. Stop "yes" and Mobot for | :53:06. | :53:12. | |
their French language counterpart and you could have a campaign in the | :53:13. | :53:15. | |
Canadian province of Quebec in the 1990s. -- swap "yes" and "no". In | :53:16. | :53:25. | |
Quebec they love voting on whether to leave Canada. They lasted it in | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
1995 and there are some spooky parallels with what happened then | :53:31. | :53:33. | |
and the final few days of the campaign in Scotland. Just ask | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
somebody who was there. Watching this whole campaign has given me a | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
strong sense of deja vu, having followed the Quebec referendum 20 | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
years ago. A hugely exciting, nail-biting campaign, but also | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
bringing together these very big, emotional feelings. | :53:50. | :53:55. | |
bringing together these very big, national identity, belonging. | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
Exhibit A, the polls. In the early days, the Canadian "no" campaign was | :54:01. | :54:05. | |
a head-butt them in the last minute the "yes" campaign took the lead. | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
The same seems to have happened in Scotland this week. Better | :54:10. | :54:13. | |
Together's response is out of the Quebec rule book. The Prime Minister | :54:14. | :54:20. | |
of Canada said that Quebec would be recognised as a distinct nation with | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
a constitutional veto. People said it was too late and if he really | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
meant it they would have done it earlier. They said they wouldn't be | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
fooled again, exactly as you are hearing now on the nationalist side. | :54:34. | :54:39. | |
Then there was a move to say that we have been too negative on the "no" | :54:40. | :54:42. | |
side and to pettifogging about the detail. We've got to be more open. | :54:43. | :54:51. | |
Just like jamming street's decision to fly the salt are, although there | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
are few tricks Number Ten might not borrow from Canada. David Cameron | :54:57. | :55:06. | |
could have said that if a wrong-headed to King's Cross, he | :55:07. | :55:12. | |
would pay for them to go to Edinburgh to campaign. But that is | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
what happened in Canada. If you got a free ticket to go to Edinburgh to | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
campaign for Scotland to stay in the UK, would you take it? Yes I would. | :55:22. | :55:27. | |
Would you be tempted with a free ticket to go on campaign? I used to | :55:28. | :55:33. | |
live there and I think it's a nice place but I think they cost us too | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
much money and if they want to go, they can go. Is it one way or | :55:38. | :55:43. | |
return? There is a big difference from Quebec. We know the result. The | :55:44. | :55:48. | |
answer was "no" but only just. We're joined by a representative of | :55:49. | :55:55. | |
the Canadian broadcaster CBC. I love the idea that the government paid | :55:56. | :55:58. | |
for people to go to Quebec to beg them to stay. That obvious he | :55:59. | :56:04. | |
worked. It depends who you speak with. The fact is that about 100,000 | :56:05. | :56:08. | |
Canadians ended up in Montreal. I was there as a student journalist | :56:09. | :56:13. | |
and was quite a scene, certainly not won the separatists were | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
appreciative of but one that the Federalists credited with that very | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
small surge ahead for the "no" side. What lessons do you think thereafter | :56:23. | :56:28. | |
Scotland in this campaign? It's amazing the similarities, despite | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
the fact that the campaign is so starkly shorter on the Canadian | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
side. It's gone on for ever hear! Despite that, the arc of it has been | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
similar. The surge of the "no" side all along and then suddenly the | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
dramatic surge of the "yes" side. In Canada, there was the love bombing | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
that happened and here, that seems to be happening. It does sound very | :56:53. | :56:57. | |
familiar. The separatists were not very happy about it in Canada. I was | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
told it isn't the kind of approach they like to see in Scotland. What | :57:02. | :57:07. | |
do you say to that? What about a month long campaign? Would that have | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
been better for the "no" side or the "yes" side? What's really | :57:12. | :57:17. | |
interesting about the Quebec question is that they then one such | :57:18. | :57:25. | |
strong concessions as a result of nearly winning that it was all a | :57:26. | :57:27. | |
problem. There really does appear now to be very little push for | :57:28. | :57:34. | |
another referendum any longer. The young in Quebec seem to be 70% in | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
favour of not breaking away, so it sounds as if it's done the trick and | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
maybe what the "no" side is offering now would do the trick in Scotland | :57:45. | :57:47. | |
as well and resolve the question by giving enough. Do you agree with | :57:48. | :57:58. | |
that, and does it end the debate? In Canada the separatist movement still | :57:59. | :58:01. | |
exists and is watching this mode very closely, just as Catalonia is, | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
and Venice, because it could be instructive. Some associations in | :58:07. | :58:09. | |
Montreal have planned meetings will shortly after the vote to talk about | :58:10. | :58:12. | |
what affect this vote might have on the future, the next possible | :58:13. | :58:21. | |
referendum. The party that led and hopes to go for another vote still | :58:22. | :58:26. | |
has a broad base of popularity. Was it a dirty campaign? In Canada? | :58:27. | :58:31. | |
Depends who you talk to! We'll end it there. Thank you for joining us | :58:32. | :58:39. | |
today. That's it. Thanks to all of our guests but particularly to you, | :58:40. | :58:43. | |
Polly Toynbee, for bearing with us for the whole hour. The news is | :58:44. | :58:47. | |
starting on BBC one now. Andrew will be in Edinburgh tonight and | :58:48. | :58:52. | |
tomorrow, I will be here in London and Andrew still in Edinburgh for | :58:53. | :58:58. | |
politics Musgrove. -- for the Daily Politics. | :58:59. | :59:09. | |
Now. This. Looks. Like. A job. For me. | :59:10. | :59:19. |