12/09/2014 Daily Politics


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Good afternoon, folks. Welcome to our programme live from Edinburgh,


where, with six days to go, both sides of the referendum campaign are


throwing everything at it. A tearful Prime Minister, a Petchey Alex


Salmond. A tree load of MPs coming up from England. What could possibly


go wrong? -- a train full of MPs. The campaigners claim, on the yes


side, but they are on the road to victory, but the polls do not give


them the momentum they had at the weekend. The no campaign is in the


lead and the reality is too close to call. Those campaigning to save the


union have marshalled a bevy of big businesses to claim all sorts of bad


things would follow a yes vote. Alex Salmond says it is scaremongering.


And we have been to Glasgow to get under the skin of yes and no voters


in the east end. If you win the election, we get independence, build


a community centre as big as this Jobcentre so people have something


to look forward to something to do. What we need to realise is this is


not about political parties. This is about the future our country.


Here in London, we will be looking at what next week's referendum means


for the rest of the UK, which ever way Scots decide to folk. -- to


vote. The leader of Plaid Cymru and the Conservative MP John Emery will


join me live to discuss the future of the union.


All of that in the next hour. With us for the duration, a yes vote from


the Scotsman and Alan Cochrane, Scotland editor for the Daily


Telegraph who will be voting no. Yesterday the yes campaign shot


ahead for the first time. But this week sought to polls with the no


campaign back in the lead, leading to claims that Alex Salmond has


peaked too soon. It is possible. The big guns will have an impact on the


low side. Scottish people are listening to the arguments. There


are still many people not firmed up in their intention to vote. The


sheer weight of the firepower that has been brought to bear since that


poll came out is, I think, bound to have some sort of impact. If you're


asking me for a prediction, I would say a narrow note next Thursday. A


narrow no? But I do think it is still to play for and it depends how


the campaign goes, and the no campaign have made some errors over


the last year and if they make another it could go the other way.


It is within the margin of error. It is very close. I suppose the one


thing on the yes side that would be a bit disappointing is that what


Madame is everything in a referendum in particular. Undecideds might


think, the country folk are going one way, I will join them, I have


made up my mind. Alex Salmond has not yet got that momentum. It looked


like he was going to get at last we get. I certainly hope that he peaked


too early. The difference in his demeanour between Sunday and Monday,


and the last couple of days, has been remarkable. As well as the big


guns being thrown at them, quite rightly, it is about time, there is


something else going on that maybe we are not being let in on. There is


a change in the mood in the nationalist camp. There is an


incredible amount of churn in these polls that makes me suspicious. If


you look at the difference between the YouGov poll at the weekend and


today, women have gone from being more favourable to yes two against


it again. Young people, under 25, big support for yes at the weekend


but now they are quite a start Stan shall no vote. That makes me very


suspicious about these polls. -- a substantial no vote. They are


dealing with a bigger turnout than we have usually seen. People are


registering to vote in unprecedented numbers. There is no way of telling


what that means. The yes camp hopes that all of those people who do not


normally vote will be leaning towards the yes side, but I do not


think it is that predictable. They could go either way. It does put the


polls in the difficult position. The don't knows are down to four present


in the latest poll. I am asked on this day are still out there! How


much information do they need? This has been going on for years. Make up


your minds! Whatever poll you look at, they are all within a


statistical margin of error. The result could go either way. With


only six days to go the outcome of the most important constitutional


decision in the Union's 300-year-old history is on a knife edge. This was


not always the case. It was one opinion poll last weekend


that really set this contest alike, with YouGov putting the yes campaign


ahead for the first time. There are plenty of different surveys out


there, all telling a slightly different stories. Luckily for us,


John Curtis has put together a poll of polls that shows just how tight


this race has become. Based on the average of six keep owls, if we look


back to the end of last year, public opinion in Scotland looked settled


and the no campaign had a commanding lead.


At one point at the end of last year, 63% backed no and only 37%


voted eight -- supported a yes vote. Moving up to this week, you can see


a clear trend emerging as the no lead gets narrower. The recent polls


have it hanging in the balance. The most recent up-to-date figures put


yes on 48 armed no on 52, which in polling terms close to call. Because


there is often a pot with polling, most recent headlines have been


generated by survey results which excluded people who said they did


not know if Scotland should be independent. This final week of the


campaign could prove decisive, if it can persuade those all-important


undecided voters. It'll all come too late to influence those who have


already voted, because a record number, almost 20% of registered


voters, asked to do so I vote and may have already cast their ballot.


We are joined now by Joe Twyman, who has travelled up with us. How


seriously should we take these polls? They are having a huge effect


on the campaign. It was because of a poll that TM queues was cancelled


and they all came north. -- 's Prime Minister's Questions. Why are they


all over the place? What has happened, if you are looking at the


long-term trends, within different companies, you see that the story is


pretty consistent. That is that the no campaign was ahead for some time


and then around about the start of August, things started to change


with the debates. Since then there has been a decline in support for


know and growth in support for yes. Recently we have seen a reaction to


that and, roll out the cliche, it is too close to call. Your company had


the yes campaign, 53-47 at the weekend, now it is no, 52-48. That


could be explained in a statistical margin of error. That is the normal


probability and no one can abolish it. It actually could still be that


the yes campaign is in head? -- head? It is all to play for and we


could see yes victory or no victory next week. We just don't know. When


is the next poll coming. On the eve of poll prediction on Wednesday. Are


you confident that you are using the right polling techniques? Unlike


general elections, where you have got a statistical series and people


you can go back to how you -- who you know have voted before, you have


nothing to compare it against. We have historical data on political


attitudes. Whether it was how they voted in the Holyrood election or


the European elections, who they politically identify with. This goes


into the mix to compare it against. We have historical data on political


attitudes. Whether it was how they voted in the Holyrood election or


the European elections, who they politically identify with. This goes


into the mix too alarmist to, hopefully, accurately model the


outcome on Thursday. -- goes into the mix to allow us to. Alex Salmond


is as -- is ahead in a lot of major demographics but in the younger of


the young people and the over 60s, he is trailing. That is right. It is


an area where he needs to make inroads, particularly among older


people. I crossed the duration of the campaign, they have staunchly


been positioning themselves in favour of no. They make up a large


proportion of the electorate and are most likely to vote. People are


talking about a high possible turnout for this referendum. "


back, 93% turned out, which is astonishingly high. -- Quebec. It


makes the over 60s particularly important. It is going to be over


80% turnout, isn't it? I would expect so, probably well over. I do


not know if it will help either side. I think there is a hope that


some of the disenfranchised will vote on the yes side, and they will


vote because they do not like the current Westminster representation.


If they turn out there is a feeling they will be likely to vote for


change rather than the status quo. A few anecdotal reports have found


that, that a lot of the people who do not normally vote at all because


they hate politics or politicians, registered this vote time -- have


registered to vote this time and are leaning towards yes. I heard a taxi


driver saying that, that he had not voted from the election. The poll


that came out a couple of days ago was the same as it had been a month


ago. It is the YouGov poll jumping all over the place. And the TNS


poll, which is a face-to-face survey. They are both showing the


same trend, the decline. Is there not also the phenomenon, the shy


Tory phenomenon, that people do not want to admit they are voting no


because it is seen as unpatriotic. Yes, and this is something you have


to take account of. You have to Yes, and this is something you have


model your analysis to make sure you are doing all you can to tease


model your analysis to make sure you that information from people. If it


was easy, anyone could do it. These days, almost anyone can!


was easy, anyone could do it. These us. With the polls as tight as ebony


is Scrooge, what is the key battle ground? Most Scots live in cities or


a large towns. Dundee is thought to be sewn up with a Yesil, Edinburgh


Strong for a no vote. Glasgow is emerging as a key battle ground. For


years a Labour Party fiefdom, but the yes campaign has been making


inroads and Labour has been struggling to hold on to what was


once it's party faithful. We said Adam out onto its streets.


The referendum battle is in full swing in the East End of Glasgow,


but you know what they say, an army marches on its stomach. I have just


bought one of these - Scotch pie. The problem is that people eat too


many of these and this area has become infamous as having one of the


lowest life expectancy is anywhere in the UK. -- expectancies. Tasty,


though! in the UK. -- expectancies. Tasty,


place where she grew up has in the UK. -- expectancies. Tasty,


neglected and it is time for a change. This is the biggest building


in my street. It is the Jobcentre. The biggest building in this street


is the Jobcentre. The pub is shot. The Jobcentre is huge. , and have a


look at how big this Jobcentre is. That is how big it is. That is big


for a Jobcentre. If we get independence, build a community


centre as big so we have something to look forward to something to do,


not just somewhere to get penalised if you do not fill in our forum or


don't turn up for a interview. -- fill in a form. The polls suggest


more and more working class Labour supporters are going to vote yes. As


I found out in the tattoo parlour! We have had interest with ten people


already going for a yes tattoo. And how many have gone for the no?


None. Needles the no campaign! I found the yes campaign knocking on


doors with a local Labour councillor. We need to take the


political parties out. It is a referendum to decide, do we stay or


do we break up? Nevertheless, why do people think that Labour didn't do


very much for them? I mean, they were 13 years in power. I don't


understand it. There has been a lot of input. And what about the fact


that nobody wants Better Together tattooed on them? If you are yes,


you do not want to change. If you do not want to change it is harder to


show what you support. So you would not get a no tattoo in the last


week? If it would make the difference, I would! And they just


might among the mums and dads at football training. It turns out a


lot of them still have not made up their mind.


A lot of people are still undecided, one day it could be yes, then it


could change. When do you think people will


decide? On the day. I think there will be a


lot of changed minds on the day. These last few days leading up to


Thursday will be crucial. The final whistle hasn't blown.


Certainly not. To borrow a phrase, there is still plenty to play for


with Glasgow's East Enders. We are joined now by the man in


charge of the Better Together campaign, Alistair Darling.


When I interviewed Jim Murphy, your colleague, he described your running


of the campaign as brilliant. A campaign that has gone from a 22


points lead, to nip and tuck. And if you had held onto that 22 points


lead? I said a year ago it would go down


to the wire. It is not surprising. The biggest


single position most of us will ever take. If we decide to leave, there


is no going back. It is not surprising people are moving around.


Did you know that the lead but go from 22 points, down to zero, at


which nothing you can do about it? I did say a year ago that it would


narrow, and it is not surprising. I said it would go down.


Surely, if you knew, your campaign would stop that from happening?


The arguments in this campaign, the emotional and economic arguments,


have been around the nearly three years.


What I do think is, in the last week, that poll at the weekend has


galvanised people who realise how high the stakes are.


This week, it could become clearer that we can have the change that we


want within the UK, we can do it better, faster and more secure


without the risks. Also, people are beginning to


concentrate on what the risks are in terms of the prices we pay in shops,


jobs, security, payment of pensions, NHS. Which is why the we should win.


If you knew this narrowing was going to take place, why did you wait


until the yes campaign had overtaken you in one poll, with less than two


weeks to go, before you rolled out this home rule blueprint?


You should have rolled it out long before?


People are less interested in the process is in this campaign.


You going to wait until they cast their vote?


The fact that the non-nationalist parties were promising change, and


the fact we can do it in a better way within the security of the UK,


faster because we will have the years of wrangling gone, and more


secure. These are things concentrating our minds.


What I am asking is, why did you wait so long?


You can only conclude it was panic. I don't agree with you.


Why did you wait? What is more important, what we are voted on next


week, and the majority of people in Scotland do want that change within


the UK, they do not want the risks of independence. The other


interesting thing, if you listen to Alex Salmond who is flying around in


a helicopter, while most people on the ground are bothered about the


announcements of headquarters moving, supermarkets saying we would


have to pay more, those other things which will concentrate our minds as


we put our cross on the ballot. The biggest decision any of us will


take. We have said it several times. You


have been critical of the yes campaign further lack of clarity.


Now you have this home rule blueprint, we need clarity. Let me


ask you. How much income tax will be devolved to Scotland?


Under our proposals at the moment... Yes, between 40% and 50%.


What is important is each political party has put forward proposals in


the same place. Here we are less than a week to go.


I don't know what currency we will be using in a week.


These are the questions. I am interviewing the no campaign. Will


the Scottish Parliament have control over oil revenues?


No, none of the political parties are doing that. The advantages we


have at the moment, we have control over health and education,


transport. It is better that the payment of


pensions should be a UK business ability. With a rising ageing


population, we take that burden across 63 million people, not 5


million. You can contribute at a Scottish and UK level.


The powers we see coming to the Scottish Parliament will mean we


will have more powers than many federal governments that people look


at. I understand. Is it only income tax?


We don't know how much? As I said, the difference between


the parties is about 10%. We know with the yes campaign we get


100%, that is exact. That is clarity. Equally, you know


you will lose the ?1200 extra a year per head of population in Scotland.


You would have a country that is dependent on 15% of its revenues


from oil, the prices of which are volatile. Ian Wood, an expert, has


made the point in 20 years the production will have run down. For


that one source of revenue, it is putting jobs, so much at risk. It is


not surprising that people are saying no, thanks.


Has Ed Balls signed off on this demolition of income tax?


The Labour Party has agreed an event we have put forward. I am part of


the Labour Party. Where does Ed Balls agree on the


record? I understand what you are trying to


do. The Labour Party, the Liberal party and the Conservative Party


have put forward proposals. We have a procedure which means by January


next year we will have registration, as opposed to years of wrangling if


we leave the UK. I know Europe pretty well. They


don't decide anything quickly. That uncertainty would cost jobs and make


Scotland even more insecure. You know Ed Balls. One of his great


concerns is tax competition. If you have separate regimes in London and


Edinburgh setting different taxes, there will be a race to the bottom.


That is why I am asking this legitimate question.


I am saying, yes, you are right about tax condition. The only tax


proposal the Nationalists are making is to reduce corporation tax to 3p


less than that fixed by the UK. That is a race to the bottom it is not a


distributive policy. The only people getting a tax break our large


corporations. Is it fair you can promise in the


dying days of a campaign further major constitutional change for


Scotland, and yet not consult the rest of the UK and find out what


they think about this and what it should mean to them?


These proposals were made some months ago. You are right that


earlier this week Carwyn Jones, the First Minister of Wales, said he


wanted greater powers in Wales. And England? There is a big argument


about transferring particularly economic powers to the English


cities outside London. Why can't people in England have the


same powers to determine their education and health and income tax


as you are about to give the Scots? As we know, the constitutional


argument in Scotland has been raging for 40 years and has not been


replicated south of the border. It could be now.


None of us should be afraid of changing the way things are run.


However... Let me ask you, are you saying that Scotland can have all


this extra tax-raising power within the UK, and other powers moved as


well. And yet, there will still be the same number of MPs from Scotland


in Westminster, and you won't answer the West Lothian Scotland, Scottish


MPs will still be able to vote on English only matters.


Seven governments -- successive governments have been struggling to


that question. That is a constitutional debate.


What I am concentrating on in the next six days is trying to persuade


a majority of my fellow country people that our best future is


secured by staying in the UK. Isn't the harsh truth of your


position in this historically Labour country, a symbolic failure of the


Labour Party? It is not. You have presided over a


corrupt 1-party fiefdom, riven by tribal warfare, half of you don't


speak to the other, half do not speak to you. Doug Alexander does


not speak to Gordon Brown. This is rubbish. No political party


in Scotland or anywhere else in the UK can take any group of people...


There is tribal warfare. You are in decline!


This is nonsense. People said that before the local elections in


Glasgow in 2012. Guess what, we want with a majority.


Glasgow, this Labour city, is a battle ground.


Every part of Scotland is a battle ground. Every part of Scotland. You


cannot make those Sumption is, well you know it, I can see you laughing.


This is something that is dividing people. Passionate arguments. The


decision we have to make, not just for our generation.


Forever. Have you ever mentioned in this campaign to defend the union


that Scotland belongs to the UK and is the fastest-growing economy in


the western world? Our economy is recovering. I have


mentioned that. As a former Chancellor, I am asked regularly.


The economy is growing. I hope this recovery is well founded. There are


big questions to be asked, especially as in Europe it is


stagnating. I have my differences with the present Government. The


bigger question is, how do we make sure it is a fair recovery so


everyone feels the benefit, not just some. It is an argument in Scotland


and the UK. I do differ from some people. But


the key thing is, for Scotland, are we going to be better off breaking


away with all of those uncertainties? Or have the best of


both worlds, a strong Scottish Government, a strong economy, I


don't want to see all those companies being forced out of


Scotland because we will rue the day once you lose headquarters and lose


decision making. What do you make of that?


I think the questions you were asking about the proposed new


devolution settlement are pertinent. Alistair knows and he won't be able


to say it now, he knows perfectly well we could have had a question


about extending and improved devolution on the ballot paper back


in 2012. Alex Salmond is a realistic politician and has always known.


The first question is, are we staying in the UK?


No, it isn't the first question. No, it isn't. You know there are plenty


of people in Scotland who will only vote for a continuing UK if it is


going to be a very different UK. There are all sorts of problems the


Westminster democracy need addressing.


As someone who does not believe in any more devolution, they are going


to do it. The Prime Minister said it.


The Prime Minister wants this. I am astonished, but he wants different


tax rates throughout the whole of the UK. I am afraid they are going


to do it. The final point?


Coming back to Joyce. I know we are on different sides.


If you take Alex Salmond and his claim at face value that he wanted a


currency union, it would mean Scottish policies would be decided


in the very country you have broken away from. That is nonsense. That is


why we will win. Back to London.


For many of you watching in England, Wales or Northern Ireland, you may


be thinking what it has got to do with you? Rather a lot because


whichever way Scotland boats, the country will get new powers. Which


has led to calls for more powers to be handed to the other countries


that make up Welcome to my guests. Leanne Wood,


you have been campaigning in Scotland as the polls have narrowed.


As much as you might want independent for Wales you except


there is not the same appetite there as there is in Scotland? We are on


very different journeys and we are very different countries. Scotland


started out with much more devolution in 1997 than we did in


Wales. The criminal justice system was devolved, as was the education


service. I am confident we are on the same journey, but at different


places. Yes, I have been up in Scotland. One of the most exciting


things about the campaign there is the grassroots nature of the


campaign, and the fact that we have talked as politicians for such a


long time about the problem of apathy and the lack of engagement


amongst citizens in politics when, in Scotland, there is very little


apathy that I could see and Argosy seems to have been reborn. So,


whatever the outcome of the results on 18th September, something very


special has happened there and I think it would be great if that


could continue and could be replicated here in Wales as well.


John Redwood, you want a separate English Parliament. How many of your


Conservative colleagues agree? The overwhelming majority of


Conservative parliamentarians and membership want to solve the English


problem. If Scotland is going to have a lot more powers, and we must


honour the pledge, though I hope they stay with us, England needs the


same powers. We need an English Parliament at Westminster and we


should do it in an economical way. I am happy to go on being an English


MP as well as a union MP, as I am at the moment. We need to make our own


decisions that parallel the decisions the Scottish parliament is


making in Scotland. That is the one thing where the SNP and I agree. How


would it work in practice? Would use it for a limited number of days each


week, or would it be an entirely separate parliament in addition to


Westminster? It would be the English members of the Westminster


Parliament sitting as the parliament. There would be days when


it was English business, so colleagues from other parts of the


union need not attend. We would do all the other things in England that


the Scottish Parliament does in Scotland. I am fed up with this


lopsided devolution, this unfettered evolution. Scotland gets first-class


devolution, Wales get second-class and England gets nothing. If Wales


was the same of us, they should have it, and we would have commonality


and we could discuss and decide in our own assemblies and parliaments


all those things that are devolved. It comes back to whether people want


it, Leanne Wood. Only around one in ten people agree in Wales that there


should be independence. When it comes to more powers for the Welsh


Assembly, only around 40% of people wanted that in a poll earlier this


year. Whether it is apathy or satisfaction, people are happy with


the status quo. At the moment you are right, but things can change


ferry quickly. Can I just agree with the point that was just made by John


Redwood - England does need to decide what it needs to do now and


should have self-determination, but the best way of achieving that is if


Scotland votes yes. What we know from previous experiences, back in


1999 Margaret thatcher said that if Scotland voted no in that


referendum, additional powers would be granted. -- Margaret Thatcher.


The only way Scotland will get more powers and the way England will have


this debate and Wales will get the settlement we need is to -- if


Scotland votes yes on 18th September. John Woodward, are you a


fan of the plan for federalism for the UK that Nick Clegg has


suggested? We have heard Alistair Darling saying more economic powers


should be transferred to cities in England. I do not see a groundswell


of opinion from the public saying, let's have more bureaucracy. They


are insulting England. England is a great country, as Scotland is. I


find now that most English people want there to be fairness and


justice. We accept there is going to be more home-rule or self-government


in Scotland. We want the same for ourselves. It may be that being rich


parliament will want to delegate more powers to the cities, though I


note that there may be a referendum about mayors. -- the English


Parliament will want to delegate. The fundamental issues about how


high income tax is going to be will not be settled separately in


Manchester and Bradford, it will be settled by the Jewish Parliament. It


could not be settled by the Parliament of the union with


Scottish MPs voting on tax in England but not in Scotland. Was


there a panic in your mind that there was too much offered to


Scotland in the closing days of the campaign? I accept Allah stalag --


Alistair Darling's point about offering more devolution and then


they accelerated timetable. I am speaking in a way for my party,


because my party fought the last election saying that in the United


Kingdom Parliament, in future, there are needed to be English votes for


English aces. In other words, there needs to be an English government at


Westminster for all those things Scotland has devolved power over.


What powers were July to see divorced to Wales if, for instance,


you were in power and the Prime Minister rang you up and he said,


this is the shopping list we would like. What would it be? There have


been numerous commissions, the latest being the Subcommission which


has proposed powers for Wales for criminal Justice, energy, tax


sharing. -- the Silk Commission. . We need to move on the


recommendations without cherry picking or the lock step which would


reduce tax powers. Then we need to move towards a system of


self-government. The days of devolution are over and there is a


consensus in Wales that the settlement that we have is not fit


for purpose and it is up to people to decide what powers they want to


hold in Wales and what powers they want to share with others as we move


on our journey towards the same situation as Scotland is embarking


upon next week, when they hold soft retreat for one day and decide


whether they get to keep it. -- when they hold sovereignty. What are you


going to do on 19th September, one we know the result of the


referendum. Whichever way it goes, what will you do with your campaign?


I will continue to be a voice for England. If Better Together wins, I


will press on the government a solution which is not just about


Scotland but also about England and if Wales and Northern Ireland wish,


for them as well. It would be neat to have the same powers for each


part of United Kingdom. It should be a United Kingdom Bill. There needs


to be enough home-rule in every part of the United Kingdom to satisfy


local opinion and that might turn out to be a similar amount in each


part of the United Kingdom. Why we have been on air we have


learned that the Reverend Ian Paisley has died at the age of 88.


Ian Paisley was one of the huge historic figures of Northern Ireland


at the heart of the troubles in the late 60s. His demonstrations


gathered pace. He was one of the leading Protestant firebrand against


any kind of arrangement with the Catholic population. " No surrender"


was his famous call. He was the figure that you had to take into


account in Belfast. He made life miserable for moderate Protestant


leaders who were trying to do a deal. Who would have thought that


after that history and at that time, and he got blamed for many of the


things that happened - the housing policy and the riots and


demonstrations, and the IRA uprising, but in the end as the


peace process took place, it was the Reverend Ian Paisley who sat down


with the IRA's Martin McGuinness to help form a new government. None of


us in Belfast at the time ever saw that coming. Indeed, Martin


McGuinness and Ian Paisley were so close that once did that people


called them the Chuckle Brothers. A defensive but major figure in


Northern Irish history has died today, the Reverend Ian Paisley, at


the age of 88. We have got a new opinion poll at


the referendum here in Scotland from Guardian ICM. It has the no vote on


51 and a yes vote on 49. Nip and tuck, very much the same. The YouGov


poll, nobody -- know is ahead for a third time this week but with a


statistical significance only. What I wanted to talk about, if it is a


no vote on the Westminster parties live up to their promise, surely it


is inconceivable you could have this matter further change in Scotland


without England, Wales, and Northern Ireland wanting their constitutions


change? This is the issue about the mishandling of this whole debate


about the campaign. The loss of the lead is down to it. London has not


paid enough attention to the debate or to the strength and range of it.


If there was going to become perhaps of reform of the kind that Gordon


Brown was talking about whilst using the word federalism, they would have


had to be on the case as soon as they saw the victory and the SNP


saying, we are going to look to a constitutional convention for the UK


and serious talk about the devolution. Have they done a? No.


The point is to think to themselves, why have they not done it? What is


the source of that complacency, that deafness, the lack of interest until


they saw the YouGov poll last week" Mike -- the YouGov poll last week.


There has to be a UK element to any constitutional change. That is why


there will have to be some sort of UK constitution. It is not about


kicking into touch by making it work. If it is done like the last


lot in 1999, which was Scotland only, it did not work because it


brought up the SNP upsurge. What needs to happen is for the whole of


the UK to devolve. The Welsh one more, the Irish would probably take


more as well. That have a UK solution.


Gordon Brown's home-rule blueprint was presented by him as without


consequences for Scotland in Westminster, but there will have --


be strong demand south of the border in England. You do not need 59 MPs


in Westminster but they will say. And they will say, you have not to


vote on our issues. The SNP have a better solution than Labour adopted.


There has to be a UK element, an English element to devolution. You


would see how much work would be needed to see how to make that


viable at this stage. John Redwood is talking about an English


parliament, about Westminster sitting as an English Parliament. I


am sure there are huge regional interests in England raised by this


debate. They will say, what about devolution to the north-east, the


North East, the south-west? The big cities of the North, that is where


the that amount is coming from most. Let's go back to Jo Coburn.


The Nationalist and Wales next week's referendum will reinvigorate


their campaign for greater self-determination. They account for


about 35% of the UK population. The India stem of her holding their


conference this" believe it is the moment for England to go it alone.


-- conference this weekend and they believe.


We do look very fondly on the idea of being the equivalent of the SNP.


The difference, I suppose, is that English nationalism is not one to be


the same as Scottish or Welsh or Irish nationalism. -- not going to


be the same. We are individual to England. I wouldn't be presumptuous


enough to say I am the same as Alex Salmond. Until recently partly --


party believed in a federal UK and you think it should be dissolved.


What has changed? We have come to the view that there is not good to


be a federal UK that looks after England's interests. Today we have


got Nick Clegg trying to trot out yet another version of regional eyes


Asian for England -- regionalisation for England. It is all part of a


Russian proposal to persuade people in need and not to vote yes in a


week's time. -- rushed proposal. Would you be the recipient, your


party would be the recipient, of votes from disillusioned English


voters who feel not enough is being done whichever way the Scots vote?


Will those go to UKIP? I think they will come to us, UKIP


is getting a proportion of that boat because people have not clearly


thought through that UKIP is a British Nationalist party and not an


English nationalist party. You said BNP supporters are joining


EU to become an electorally credible party. What did you mean?


What we were saying, really, it is we welcome genuine converts to


English nationalism wherever they come from. Our party has Members who


come from the left and the right. We are simply a new party.


Obviously, when you are new, you are looking to get people to come over


as converts to your cause. Is that because you do not appeal to


the mainstream? I think we do. In the last


elections, most of our candidates, in fact virtually all our


candidates, with one or two exceptions, were either previous


conservatives or previous Labour Party people.


It is just that the BBC focuses on that particular issue rather than on


the fact most of our people did not come from there.


Is there going to be a moment for your party on September the 19th,


the day after the Scottish referendum?


I think there will be, with either result.


We are now faced with the option of yes, in which case, clearly, the


whole question of England becomes that much more urgent which has to


be addressed. John Redwood has only just come out from English


Parliament, part of this movement to the thought that England has to be


properly looked after in the future. If it is no, that no longer means no


movement, it means this great surge of devo max. That hugely impacts on


the cottages null structure not just for Scotland, but for the whole of


the UK. England again needs to be properly represented. The British


political establishment is not doing that job.


We are joined now by Fiona Hyslop, a Member of the Scottish Polmont, and


Cabinet Secretary for Culture. -- Parliament. There are huge


uncertainties about the currency, currency union, the nature of EU


ownership, NATO ownership. Would it make more sense to accept this offer


further devolution including tax powers, so all the uncertainties go.


What do you think? There are uncertainties with both.


One of the 70s with the yes vote is that we get the Government we vote


for. This week, we have seen sheer panic.


Westminster parties taking the Scottish people for granted.


This isn't a blueprint but a timetable for the powers which have


already been announced. They are agreed they will give more


power. I accept you can't pin them down. There is a general mood to


devolve more power including income tax powers. If you do that, there is


no question about the currency. All monetary union. No question about EU


membership, pensions or NATO membership. That is guaranteed. If


we go your route, none of that is guaranteed. We can use the pound.


Not in a monetary union. Are we satisfied with some income tax? We


want job-creating powers. None of the towers include corporation tax


or employment -- powers. What people really want is making sure it works


for the people of Scotland, transforming childcare, job


creation. 100% of the powers, not this.


The negative effect of not knowing whether Scotland will have which


currency, monetary union, there could be far greater job destruction


than anything you could do. You are joining in this agenda which


is about fear mongering. What is the answer to my question.


The uncertainty of the no campaign, can you tell me whether we will be


within a referendum. The uncertainty of the no campaign,


can you tell me whether we will be within a referendum... Do not answer


with a question. You must the job destruction potential is huge.


The interests of the UK will be to have a ministry union. You cannot


guarantee by the Scotland will be in or out with David Cameron --


monetary union. We have a choice of two futures.


Some will be uncertain. But that is my point. Big things


will be uncertain. People waking up to the wealth of


Scotland, GDP per head being more than France without oil...


So... We are in a strong position. People want the wealth of Scotland


to work for the people of Scotland. You claim this will be a richer


country. Why do you fail to win the document, the polls show only 21% of


Scots think they would be better off with independents.


People are waking up to the realisation of the reality.


Not with 21%. In terms of what I am getting back


is people are understanding Scotland is a far more wealthy country than


they were led to believe. So why only 20%? 50% think there


would be worse off. In terms of taxation, we have paid


more of our tax to the rest of the UK per head. We pay our own way. It


is about time we started to use the wealth of Scotland for the people of


Scotland. I am not arguing about that. You


haven't been paying more, that is what you said.


Over the last five years, we have been paying more than we receive.


Aren't people write to wonder whether there would be worse off?


The Royal Bank of Scotland, Lloyds, TSB, Tesco, standard life, all say


they will move their headquarters. That is absolutely wrong. They are


not saying they are moving. You in the BBC should know. Nick Robinson


was told the registration office is not their headquarters. RBS has


issued a letter to their staff saying it has no intention of moving


their jobs. Yes, it is not their intention.


I have constituents who do not want to hear from the BBC scaremongering.


You know as well as I do... With registered offices, with


headquarters, come the best jobs, the top legal jobs, the top


accountancy, the top banking jobs. If you start to lose these jobs, the


other things go. If the people running the country are not based in


President Oleksandr Turchynov the company are not based in


Scotland... -- if the people running the company are not based in


Scotland. You could reduce corporation tax to


make us competitive, a fuel price regulator, make supermarkets have a


lower cost base. This is about the competitive environment you could


have with a yes vote. An opportunity where we can have our


wealth working for the people of Scotland. Nobody should


scaremonger. You don't think it matters major


Scottish institutions with the name Scotland in them are worried about


the uncertainties of Scottish independence?


I used to work for Standard AMSA life, in 1997, they said they were


questioning policies -- Standard Life. I want a competitive Scotland.


I have seen the comments from Aberdeen asset management saying


they believe Scotland can be successful.


We live in a global economy. I also know the opportunities we have the


Scotland to make the wealth work for Scotland will affect everybody and


every sector. Whether it is chemical industries, energy.


You have made the NHS a key issue, it would only be safe from cuts from


privatisation in an independent Scotland. Under your Government, how


much of that would help increase spending in Scotland?


There has been a real increase under this Government. How much? A real


terms increase. A real terms increase which has helped to


protect... According to this data, you have cut


health spending in real terms by 1%.


No, we have not cut health spending. Whereas the British Government has


increased health spending by 4%. We have record numbers of employees


in the health service. Why have you cut spending?


We have other countries looking Why have you cut spending?


us for patient safety. Why have you cut spending?


We have free health care, free prescriptions, far more nurses


working in Scotland now. Why do the independent figures


showed that health spending in real terms is down under your Government?


No, the health spending under the Scottish Government has increased in


real terms. The risk to the health service is growing privatisation


within England. Rolling back the state on the health service will


have a long-term effect in terms of the amount of money coming to


Scotland. Privatisation, are you saying to me


at the Scottish Government has not privatised any health care?


We took the help cleaning contracts back in-house.


Have you not privatised anything? You have privatised your obesity


strategy to Weight Watchers. Less than 1% of the Scottish


Government's health budget... Have you privatised that?


Have you privatised that or not? If one health board is making a


decision, that is up to then. Less than 1% of the Scottish health


budget is in private contract. How much does the NHS spent on


private subcontractors? In terms of protecting the NHS, we


have two disconnect the budget from the Scottish Government from the


health budget in the UK. The only way to ensure the growing


privatisation in the UK health service does not impact.


You spend half ?1 billion on privatised health contractors.


Less than 1% of the Scottish budget. The principle is there.


When we have had the opportunity to change policies, that is why we took


the private health cleaning contracts...


You privatised Scottish health functions.


We have to make sure we keep it within the principles established,


free from the point of delivery. The 2012 health care act in England


takes that responsibility away from the UK Health Minister.


We retain that responsibility. Would you get the contract back from


Weight Watchers? Maybe you need to talk to the health


board yourself. That is it for today. We will be


back on Sunday and again on Monday, we hope to see you then.


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