Browse content similar to 15/09/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:35. | :00:37. | |
With just three days left until Referendum Day, Scots are warned | :00:38. | :00:40. | |
We'll bring you the latest on the campaigns. | :00:41. | :00:53. | |
After the brutal murder of David Haines - and threats | :00:54. | :00:55. | |
on the life of another British Hostage - how should Britain and its | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
Want to kick your errant MP out of the commons? | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
The government's introducing a new law it says will make that easier. | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
But one Conservative MP says voters are being conned. | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
And are promises of more powers for Scotland, if it stays part of the | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
All that in the next hour but let's start this morning with Scotland. | :01:12. | :01:24. | |
The independence referendum is on Thursday | :01:25. | :01:26. | |
A year ago the No campaign had a comfortable lead | :01:27. | :01:32. | |
but that has now all but disappeared with the latest poll of polls | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
Let's talk now to two commentators who've been paying close attention | :01:37. | :01:43. | |
to this campaign, journalist and broadcaster, Lesley | :01:44. | :01:45. | |
Riddoch, and Alex Massie who writes for the Spectator among others. | :01:46. | :01:58. | |
Looking at the way the polls have developed in the last ten days, can | :01:59. | :02:05. | |
they be trusted at this point to give any clear indication about who | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
will win on Thursday? They can to the degree that it is very close, | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
and I would not be one that said the polls have been wrong in the last | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
few months. I think the mistake has been to assume that people who have | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
said they were no work immutably know. I've heard it referred to as a | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
deferred yes, and that might sound like nonsense, but it is proven to | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
be the case. One survey done by academics at Edinburgh University | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
found that the more no vote has been engaged, the more they have moved | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
towards yes. So the people who at the beginning might been distant are | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
hearing certain stories coming from every outlet, because Bear in mind | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
only one newspaper supports independence, and those people when | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
they heard another side of the story and were able to engage, they have | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
felt calmer about the arguments and have moved their vote. We have a | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
situation now where both sides are claiming victory. Is that being done | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
just for public appetite, or it -- is it what they believe? Both sides | :03:09. | :03:15. | |
do believe it. Whether they basing it on something credible rather than | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
a hunch is a different matter. The no campaign is a bit more | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
confident. The Yes campaign do believe that victory is possible. It | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
is one of those people that might be shocking for people, but it wouldn't | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
be no longer considered surprising. It is reasonable to say that even at | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
this late stage, more things need to go right for the Yes campaign to | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
prevail and they need to get lucky, if you like and hit the cards three | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
times in a row. Whereas the no campaign still has a bit more margin | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
for error, for things going wrong, but at the same time, that is a | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
little margin for error, because everybody assumes that on the day | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
the Yes campaign will have a more efficient vote out operation. Isn't | :03:57. | :04:05. | |
it true, that whatever I anyone says, to anyone, however loud, it | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
will make less difference than both sides getting their people to the | :04:11. | :04:13. | |
polling booths to put the cross in the right box for them. The ground | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
war is now absolutely critical. That is true, but I know the narratives | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
of things being loud, and that is inevitable when you come to this | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
kind of conflict, and it's not a conflict, this is democracy. What is | :04:30. | :04:36. | |
likely to persuade people are softer words, and our conversations with | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
families or friends. There are a lot of people, and I know it sounds | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
extraordinary given we have had two years of debate, there are some | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
people who think they will vote no one day and yes the next. Taking | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
your point though, even things like the weather, it is a grey day today | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
and we understand the weather will pick up by Thursday, and as Alex | :04:57. | :05:03. | |
said, the yes organisation has traditionally been with the backing | :05:04. | :05:06. | |
of the SNP a slick operation are getting local organisations going, | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
and the local aspect of the Yes campaign is anyone might agree is | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
where it has scored hugely until now. Taking that point on, it is | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
about the ground war, but what about persuading those people who have | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
either changed their minds or are soft on voting one way or another, | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
conversations in families, or people coming to the door. It is impossible | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
to measure how those people will vote until they are standing in the | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
booth. Of course, that is the case. I think a lot of people are | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
surprised that this is going to be as close as it is, and they | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
shouldn't be surprised. The baseline constituency for independence was | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
all raise around 35%, and there was always another 10% of people who | :05:55. | :05:57. | |
could easily be converted to voting yes. This means that the battle has | :05:58. | :06:06. | |
really been over the final 10%. Now how they will vote, nobody knows. | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
Partly because the most significant group of voters are not so much | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
undecided or Labour voters as the half of the population who did not | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
vote in the last Holyrood election, who do not usually vote in | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
elections. The assumptions are that these people are from poorer areas | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
and somehow more likely to vote yes. I think that is a slightly | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
simplistic reading because many are from middle-class areas and just as | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
likely to vote no. Again, that simplifies things, but the thing is, | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
nobody really knows anything. Let's look to the day after, Leslie, God | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
forbid, you will have a divided country. Scotland will be divided | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
because they are divided on this question and because of the way the | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
vote is being taken and cast. Are you worried that half the folk in | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
the country could be resentful and unhappy whatever the result? Having | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
had a situation where Scotland as a function of its population has got | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
pretty good experience of not getting the results it once, and | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
that has fuelled the independence campaign, we kind of about used to | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
it. I do take the point that there will be a huge disappointment, | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
because some people have put their lives on hold, seen their earnings | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
collapse, but on the other hand they have seen fabulous new friendships | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
and had a tremendous sense of solidarity. And that suddenly goes | :07:33. | :07:39. | |
on the 19th as well. And there is a withdrawal of business as usual for | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
a number of people, never mind the slightly overwrought emphasis on | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
division. I grew up in Northern Ireland and that is an area that has | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
managed to achieve huge amounts of reconciliation. Scotland, by | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
contrast, has had the most civilised debate to determine something on a | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
constitutional level anywhere in Europe, and that is the real story. | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
We have to end it there, but thank you to both of you. | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
John Reid is a former Labour Cabinet Minister. | :08:09. | :08:10. | |
He was Secretary of State for Scotland in 1999 when the Scottish | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
Parliament was re-established and he joins us now from Glasgow. | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
Welcome along. We heard yesterday, and you might have done as well, | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
from George Galloway who said that Labour was on its deathbed in | :08:23. | :08:25. | |
Scotland, it is finished because of the way the lead by the Better | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
Together campaign has collapsed during the campaigning, and because | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
of the number of Labour voters now intending to vote yes. Is that a | :08:35. | :08:46. | |
question? Yes, is he right? On issues like this, no party or party | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
leader will dictate to the Scottish people. There will be movements | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
across, and some Labour voters who will vote for separation, and about | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
20% of SNP supporters who are against separation. This is an | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
exercise in democracy. The only thing we know until the people | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
actually vote is that it is very close. And | :09:08. | :09:24. | |
people are concentrating their minds on the long-term effects, | :09:25. | :09:26. | |
particularly on the positive benefits of being part of a bigger | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
state, and the dangers of separating pensions, paid, jobs and so on. Is | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
it so close because labour is failing in Scotland? You have heard | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
about accusations of complacency, but at the end of last week, the | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
latest Guardian poll suggested that 42% of Scots who voted Labour in the | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
2010 election were minded to vote yes. Surely proof of Labour's | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
decline of influence in Scotland. I've just answered your question. | :09:57. | :09:58. | |
You won't get a different answer because you've raised the question | :09:59. | :10:05. | |
differently. It is more evidence. It is not. It is unbalanced. The | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
balanced evidence shows that 20% of SNP supporters, and their central | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
premise of being that supporter is separated, 20% of them is voting to | :10:15. | :10:21. | |
remain in the UK -- is separation. I understand why people on the | :10:22. | :10:24. | |
television get really involved about the process, but actually, rather | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
than listen to the polls, I would rather listen to the arguments, and | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
the essential thing in the next few days is whether or not we take a | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
country which has a rich and proud history and culture and control of | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
its affairs, and will have more, and give it the stability it has had for | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
three centuries of a wider economic unit, like the United Kingdom, or | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
whether it goes its separate way with all the undoubted risks that | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
have been illustrated in the past week on questions of paid, prices | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
and investment and pensions. That is what is going to concentrate the | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
mind, with great respect. You say that, but it was the Westminster | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
parties who reacted to one particular poll that put the Yes | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
campaign ahead, if you are accusing the media of reacting to polls. They | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
cancelled Prime Minister's Questions and went up the Scotland because | :11:19. | :11:20. | |
they were so worried about the collapse of the lead by the Better | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
Together campaign which has been led by a senior Labour figure, Alistair | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
Darling, and people will be asking why it is. I have been arguing and | :11:30. | :11:39. | |
debating this as a mess -- member of what you call the Westminster | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
parties, which plays into the Alex Salmond dogma, and he is dog | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
whistling the sentiment of the English parties. I have been | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
debating this issue on the streets for 30 years, not the last few days. | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
And the essential question remains the same, which isn't about this or | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
that aspect of the campaign, it is about the integral arguments. Do you | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
want to have the richness of Scottish heritage and culture within | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
the stability of aid bigger economic unit like the UK, or do you want all | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
the dangers of separation. That is what people are arguing about. | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
Arscott generally worried about what will happen in the general election | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
next year -- our Scottish people? Tommy Sheridan articulated what many | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
Scottish people felt about Westminster leaders, when they are | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
three millionaires united in one thing, that is austerity. It won't | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
matter to Scottish people if Ed Miliband wins the next election | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
because he signed up to Tory spending cuts. They are not getting | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
what they voted for, so they are looking favourably on independence. | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
Do you understand that? You are quoting Tommy Sheridan, a great | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
character, a great celebrity and a leader of various revolutionary | :13:04. | :13:05. | |
socialist parties that have no support whatsoever in Scotland. But | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
does his sentiment ring true, that actually Scottish people think they | :13:11. | :13:13. | |
don't get the government they are voting for and they want a social | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
democracy, and they want what they say is a fairer society and they | :13:18. | :13:20. | |
don't think it can be delivered by the Labour Party? There is no doubt | :13:21. | :13:23. | |
the frustration of voting Labour and not getting a Labour government is | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
felt by many people. Incidentally, many people in Manchester, in | :13:29. | :13:35. | |
Liverpool, in Newcastle, as well as in Scotland, that is called | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
democracy. It's also true that over the past 20 years for instance, we | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
have had a majority Labour government and next year we will | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
have another Labour government, so sometimes you win, sometimes you | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
lose, but balanced against the frustration is the fact that we have | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
had enormous assistance in financial stability, economic strength, | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
individual opportunity and social justice because of being part of the | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
partnership of the United Kingdom. The National Health Service, the | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
welfare state, competence of education, race relations, the | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
minimum wage, the minimum pension, these are the products of not only | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
Scottish values but British governments. And in the main, | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
British Labour governments and people in Scotland know that. Let's | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
think a bit more about devolution. You said yesterday that you support | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
devolution for the rest of the UK in the event of a no vote in Scotland. | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
How far do you want to take that devolution? I'd personally, having | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
fought all of my life for devolution to the Scottish Parliament, I want | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
to see it extended or offered to the people of England on a regional | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
basis. When we went to the first referendum, people in the north-east | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
said no, so that didn't work. However, there is a possibility, I | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
believe, of recognition that the centralising more powers to city | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
regions, local enterprise companies, and so on, is the way that we should | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
go in the UK. Not an English parliament? It is an overcentralised | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
state, and the more you can devolve things, the better. An English | :15:07. | :15:12. | |
parliament is part of the argument, but decentralisation is not just | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
about parliaments, it's about passing power to localities within | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
the UK, to the nations of the UK, but also downwards to the likes of | :15:21. | :15:23. | |
cities and regions like London. What would that mean for a future | :15:24. | :15:31. | |
Labour government. In Ed Balls is reported to have said that if we | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
give the whole tax raising power to the Scottish Parliament, how can | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
Scottish Labour MPs vote for a Labour budget in England? First, | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
let's take the question of passing it to the Scottish Parliament. That | :15:46. | :15:47. | |
doesn't just give the Scottish Parliament more power, it gives it | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
more responsibility. Because the more you are obliged to raise the | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
money you are spending, the more responsible and accountable to the | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
Scottish people you will be. That is not just an argument of more powers. | :16:02. | :16:08. | |
In terms of devolution throughout the UK, that discussion will take | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
place. Why? Because there is a distinction between the Scottish | :16:14. | :16:16. | |
referendum, which is whether you want to be a member of the club or | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
not. That is a matter for the Scottish people. Having decided you | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
want to be a member of the club, we then discuss the rules of the club | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
and that is a matter for not just the Scottish people, but the Welsh | :16:31. | :16:32. | |
and the Northern Irish and the English. That would be dangerous for | :16:33. | :16:40. | |
Labour, because if Scotland votes no, given greater autonomy, Scottish | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
MPs continuing to vote on English education and health and welfare, | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
they get more power over tax and spending, how can they be allowed to | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
vote on a budget that would not have anything to do with them? If we are | :16:53. | :16:58. | |
talking about exclusively English matters, then of course there will | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
be a discussion about how those discussions are reached if we | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
devolve tax raising power to the Scottish Parliament. I don't think | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
these issues are dangerous. When you have a government at the moment, you | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
have a Conservative government in the UK. You don't have such a | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
government in Scotland. You have an SNP government. You don't have such | :17:22. | :17:24. | |
a government in Northern Ireland. You may not have such a government | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
in Wales. That is not dangerous. That is democratic. The more you | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
decentralise the state, the better it is in a modern world in my view. | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
Thank you very much. "They are not Muslims, | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
they are monsters". Those were the words of | :17:43. | :17:44. | |
David Cameron yesterday as he responded to the beheading | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
of British aid worker David Haines The chilling video, which emerged | :17:49. | :17:51. | |
over the weekend, included a threat on the life of another | :17:52. | :17:54. | |
British aid worker, Alan Henning, who's from Salford and was captured | :17:55. | :17:57. | |
in Syria in December last year. Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond | :17:58. | :18:00. | |
will meet ministers from other countries at | :18:01. | :18:02. | |
a special conference in Paris today So far Britain has stopped short of | :18:03. | :18:17. | |
committing planes as part of US air strikes against Islamic State which | :18:18. | :18:20. | |
were announced by Barack Obama last week in response to the murder of | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
two American citizens. David Cameron has to form two coalitions. First he | :18:26. | :18:33. | |
has to build a democraters tick coalition -- domestic coalition in | :18:34. | :18:36. | |
Westminster. However, the Prime Minister will tread carefully after | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
losing last year's vote over action on Syria and he has hinted any air | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
strikes would have to have majority support from Parliament. Although a | :18:46. | :18:48. | |
recall of MPs seems unlikely this week. On the international stage, | :18:49. | :18:51. | |
there is the question of whether to bomb IS in Iraq and Syria or just | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
Iraq. In Paris the Foreign Secretary will try to build support for a | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
US-led coalition, including Australia and some Arab states. We | :19:03. | :19:14. | |
are joined by a panel of MPs. Mark Field, Labour's Owen Smith, and | :19:15. | :19:21. | |
Liberal Democrat Tom Brake. Mark Field, do you support the idea of UK | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
air strikes in Iraq and Syria or just Iraq? I think the right | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
approach and David Cameron's approach has been to build up a | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
patient coalition of interthat will thought. That is the -- | :19:38. | :19:39. | |
international thought. That is the UN and the EU and NATO. I think | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
there is a distinction between what happens in Iraq and Syria, given the | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
vote we had last year in the House of Commons and any action in Syria | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
would require the approval of Parliament. Do you think you would | :19:56. | :20:02. | |
get that? We probably would, I think compared to last year when there was | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
a head long rush without thinking through the implications, thinking | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
we will recall Parliament and they will fall into line. You have to | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
praise David Cameron's patience and Barack Obama. The truth is we know | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
this issue in relation to Isil or Islamic State will not be a matter | :20:23. | :20:28. | |
for the next few weeks or months. It will take many years. There is a | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
distinction between what is happening in Iraq and Syria. Not | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
least because of the complication that Isil is part of group against | :20:39. | :20:47. | |
president ass sat. -- Assad. That sounds like you're not supporting | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
it. I'm still to be persuaded. In Iraq, yes. We heard Mark Field say | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
David Cameron has been patient. Some may say slow to react. Bearing in | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
mind we have had the beheading of a British he is Taj and a second man | :21:02. | :21:08. | |
-- hostage and a second man is being held. Do you think that prince is | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
progressing -- that Britain is processing too slowly? No, I don't | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
often have words of praise for the Prime Minister, but I think he has | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
been right. The world has been right. The west has been right to | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
wait and try to build a broad coalition of countries and in lots | :21:26. | :21:32. | |
of respects it shows we are learning lessons of past. Labour helped to | :21:33. | :21:35. | |
learn the lessons. Or held back David Cameron, because of the worry | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
that Labour wouldn't support them? No, I think President Obama has led | :21:40. | :21:46. | |
this and he has articulated the need for building a broad coalition. The | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
west can't act in isolation in the Middle East. When we have done that | :21:51. | :21:59. | |
there have been malign consequences. The death of this man and these | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
other people is barbaric and awful. We are all shocked. But the worst | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
thing we could do for everybody involved would be to jump to action | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
without having a clear, clarity about what we are trying to achieve | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
and the long-term consequences. We have been told a number of Arab | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
states are willing to join a coalition and the process is under | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
way. The Foreign Secretary is meeting with counter parts. If all | :22:30. | :22:35. | |
of that is got through positively, will you sign up to air strikes | :22:36. | :22:45. | |
against Iraq? Against IS? We would need to know what the premise was | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
and the nature of the coalition that had been brought together and to be | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
clear on the objectives. Hypothetically yes if all those | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
things were clear and there were agreement in Labour and in | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
Westminster. That is a possibility. Does that fill you with confidence? | :23:03. | :23:09. | |
It should do. That there would be a consensus if let's say Parliament at | :23:10. | :23:12. | |
the end of the Labour Party conference is called to debate this | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
with the issue of air strikes on the table? What the difference of course | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
is that if there was an agreement that went beyond just the UK and the | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
US and involving Arab state, that would give people the confidence | :23:26. | :23:31. | |
that they needed to see this not as being a western intervention. But | :23:32. | :23:34. | |
being an intervention that had wide support. That is essential for | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
securing the support in Parliament. Where is your party on this? I think | :23:39. | :23:44. | |
my view and my party's view is that I think if that agreement was there, | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
not just the US and the UK and if Parliament was behind it, I think | :23:51. | :23:53. | |
the Liberal Democrats would be behind action. So the point about | :23:54. | :24:01. | |
Syria, is it in your mind legal if the discussion is broadened to | :24:02. | :24:04. | |
include air strikes against Syria. Would it be legal for the UK to bomb | :24:05. | :24:12. | |
IS there? I would need to see the detail and what UN support there | :24:13. | :24:19. | |
was. You would want a UN resolution? Without that it is problematic. But | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
we need to take action that crosses borders, otherwise they will cross | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
from one border to the other. Would you want a UN resolution before any | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
agreement by the British Government to bomb in Syria? It would always be | :24:34. | :24:40. | |
to the UK Government's advantage to secure that. But would it be | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
necessary, you would argue humanitarian reasons, just like the | :24:45. | :24:50. | |
British government did in Kosovo and you would say Assad was not a | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
legitimate government. It wouldn't strictly be necessary. People look | :24:57. | :24:59. | |
at the terrible death of David Haynes and I suspect, although I | :25:00. | :25:06. | |
don't know it, how many hostages we have, I fear there are other British | :25:07. | :25:15. | |
citizens who have been taken hostage on the Turkish border. The truth is | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
that if you take the Daily Express type view that we should regain the | :25:20. | :25:28. | |
Lord Palmerston days of gun boat dim Lome si. Those -- diplomacy. Those | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
days are long gone. Rescue attempts are not possible. We have tried | :25:34. | :25:39. | |
that. Of course communication and negotiations go on when we have | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
citizens at bay there. But the truth we know this is going to be a long | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
haul. And we need to build up that coalition throughout the | :25:49. | :25:51. | |
international community and the best of that through the UN ideally and | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
certainly through NATO. What about boots on the ground. That is not | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
being discussed. Is that what some of you would like to think is | :26:01. | :26:06. | |
necessary to defeat Isis. Yes, at some point there will be, whether it | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
is Special Forces or humanitarian people, as part of a UN force, but | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
it may be that to defeat them, it will require boots on the ground. | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
But that is a long way ahead. This is about defeating them. It is a | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
balance between bringing even on board, but the public, many of them, | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
if not a swrort in favour of air strikes, want to see Isis defeated. | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
Yes the public view is changing. I think a couple of years ago there | :26:38. | :26:43. | |
was clearly a diminishing app site for British -- appetite for British | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
military engaging. I think that is changing, because of Isis. And the | :26:49. | :26:51. | |
security threat? And the pure evil of the nature of the individuals we | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
are dealing with. I'm not a pacifist. Britain has a role to play | :26:58. | :27:04. | |
and that does require on occasions hard power. The principal lesson to | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
learn from Iraq is if you don't know how it is going to turn out, or you | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
don't have a good idea, don't start it. Should Parliament be recalled? | :27:16. | :27:22. | |
If there is a proposal for major military engagement, that would have | :27:23. | :27:24. | |
to happen. I think we are not at that stage. We should be supporting | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
people like the Kurds and the Iraqi Government to take the military | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
action. That is the starting point. You don't think there has been a | :27:33. | :27:35. | |
delay, because of Scottish referendum? No, there v this has | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
been a painstaking sense of trying to build that coalition. And the | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
truth is that the public recognise and dare I say it the dreadful | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
watching these murderers, they're British citizens and could return | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
and be a danger to us all. Thank you. | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
Well the Government's introduced a bill to Parliament it says will | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
The Recall Bill was unveiled by the Deputy Prime Minister, | :28:06. | :28:08. | |
But the Conservative MP, Zac Goldsmith - who's been campaigning | :28:09. | :28:11. | |
for the right to fire your MP - has called the Bill a Con. | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
Why is the bill a Corne? It is the same as the bill he introduced some | :28:16. | :28:29. | |
years ago. It is a con, because it is an attempt to convey an | :28:30. | :28:32. | |
impression that they will have powers to hold their MPs to account | :28:33. | :28:40. | |
between elections. But they won't. According to criteria in the bill, | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
just six MPs would have been affected. So I think if anyone is | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
left with the impression that after this Bill goes through they will | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
have the power to hold their MP to account, they're mistaken. Except | :28:53. | :28:58. | |
even if it didn't allow the sort of powers that you suggested, the Bill | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
would have resulted in the removal of MPs such as Patrick Mercer. It is | :29:03. | :29:10. | |
not as toothless as you suggest if MPs breach the code of conduct they | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
would come before the authorities. It is not a complete con? I think it | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
is a dangerous thing that the Government is doing. In particular | :29:21. | :29:23. | |
the Deputy Prime Minister, it is dangerous, because I think people | :29:24. | :29:26. | |
will imagine, just as they were promised before the election that we | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
would have recall power, I think they will imagine that they will | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
have the power to hold their MP to account. But it is almost impossible | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
to imagine an MP being recalled on the back of Nick Clegg bill. One | :29:38. | :29:46. | |
reason is in the Nick Clegg bill, unless every where elsewhere it | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
happens, Parliament needs to make the decision. Instead of handing the | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
power to voters, it hands it up to the House of Commons and that is the | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
opposite of what recall should be. The criteria are so narrow and | :30:00. | :30:06. | |
focussing on financial irregularity, if your MP didn't turn up at | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
Parliament for five years, they would be untouchable. Let me put | :30:12. | :30:21. | |
that to you, Tom, if an MP does those things listed, you can't do | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
anything about it? I'm afraid some of what Zac Goldsmith has said is | :30:26. | :30:31. | |
incorrect. There are two main changes. The first changes that any | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
MP who receives a prison sentence of 12 months or less automatically a | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
recall position is triggered. That is at the extreme end. Serious | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
wrongdoing, according to the code of conduct for MPs, and equally if the | :30:47. | :30:52. | |
commission of standards agrees they have committed serious wrongdoing, | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
then the recall petition comes out. But Zac Goldsmith is saying that you | :30:57. | :30:59. | |
are an MP who goes abroad every year and never speaks to constituents, | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
can't do anything. We have a fundamental principle at stake here, | :31:05. | :31:07. | |
and that that is people elect their member of Parliament to represent | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
them. They elect them to take decision on their behalf. Sometimes | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
they might not like those decisions but would what Zac is proposing, a | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
petition could be triggered every time a member of Parliament takes a | :31:21. | :31:26. | |
decision that a constituent does not support. What is the point of | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
electing them to serve a five-year term? That is always the fear, that | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
it will be vindictive. I know you say that there are triggers and a | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
high bar before recall could happen. Is it 5%? Just quickly on | :31:40. | :31:46. | |
those comments, what he said is not true. I have read the bill and I'm | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
surprised he hasn't. It's not just about being sanctioned by Parliament | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
or the committee on standards, you have to be expelled from the house | :31:54. | :31:59. | |
for a minimum of 21 days and it never happens. It's a serious | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
thing. To qualify the recall, it is either a custodial crime, or being | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
thrown out of the house for a minimum of 21 days. It is very, very | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
unlikely to capture anyone. I don't even think the jail criteria should | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
be set by Parliament. It is possible to imagine MPs going to jail for | :32:19. | :32:25. | |
noble reason. Terry Field went to jail for refusing to pay the poll | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
tax. He was adored by his constituents. It shouldn't be down | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
to Parliament. That is an interesting point. First of all, | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
have you read the bill? As one of the ministers responsible, yes I | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
have. Just checking because Goldsmith thinks I haven't, or | :32:41. | :32:43. | |
you've misinterpreted. You have read it. What do you say to that point? | :32:44. | :32:50. | |
It is an interesting one. If a prison sentence is the bar that is | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
used, it could be unjustified. What Zac has highlighted is exactly one | :32:56. | :32:58. | |
of the things we have built into the bill. If you had a scenario where a | :32:59. | :33:04. | |
member of Parliament, such as the poll tax riots, and an MP was | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
sentenced to eight prison templated -- prison sentence, there would be a | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
rebate, but that MP's constituents could choose whether they thought | :33:15. | :33:17. | |
that was something that required their MP to be thrown out or, | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
alternatively, if they had some sympathy with the decision taken. | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
How many of your colleagues are supporting new or agree with you? I | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
put together an alternative recall bill with 22 MPs on a panel from | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
seven different parties and we could have had 100, but when you get | :33:35. | :33:37. | |
beyond 20 it's an unworkable committee. There is a huge support | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
in parliament for the real deal recall bill that gives power to the | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
institution to decide who gets to comment is not the kind of recall | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
that people want. It's not what people outside of Parliament one. | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
This is a recall Bill, and it will be put before you and your | :33:56. | :33:57. | |
colleagues. Will you try to amend it? I think it needs a profound | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
amendment. I hope the Conservative Party will apply a light whip and | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
allow Parliament to do the job and until that is the case, I heard the | :34:07. | :34:08. | |
Liberal Democrats will trust their own members to do the job of | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
improving legislation, and likewise the Labour Party. It remains to be | :34:15. | :34:17. | |
seen of Parliament is properly allowed to scrutinise the bill. If | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
it is pushed through on a whip, we will get what we want. Is that true? | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
Is the Chief Whip, Michael Gove, going to step back from this and | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
actually say, you go ahead, you vote against this Liberal Democrat bill. | :34:34. | :34:40. | |
Obviously it's a government bill but brought forward by the Deputy Prime | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
Minister, and you can support Zac Goldsmith's amendments. It is | :34:45. | :34:47. | |
Minister, and you can support Zac coalition bill. I have some sympathy | :34:48. | :34:49. | |
with what Zac Goldsmith is saying because it seems to | :34:50. | :34:52. | |
with what Zac Goldsmith is saying promise made when the coalition was | :34:53. | :34:52. | |
formed promise made when the coalition was | :34:53. | :34:55. | |
has been massively watered down. If we end up with a bill like this we | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
might as well have no bill at all. So you would vote against it? I will | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
listen to the debate and look at some of the amendments put through. | :35:06. | :35:10. | |
The concern I have, at one level, you do not want to have vexatious | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
individuals who through Internet petitions make life incredibly | :35:16. | :35:18. | |
difficult on minor points. I can see what Tom says about that to that | :35:19. | :35:24. | |
extent. But where Zac is right, the idea of entrusting it to the | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
standards committee, and let's be candid about this, the coalition was | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
very keen to go down this route and the first person to be subject to | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
this recall and probably thrown out of the House of Commons was Tom's | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
colleague, and now back in the government, David laws who | :35:43. | :35:45. | |
misappropriated ?50,000 of money. And from thereon in, there was a | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
view that we should get the standards committee in and water it | :35:51. | :35:52. | |
down, because there was a realisation that the best will in | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
the world, this wasn't the best idea. Is that part of the reason you | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
have watered it down? No, what we have come forward with is a bill | :36:03. | :36:08. | |
that reflects when serious action needs to be taken. Mark himself has | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
admitted that one of the problems with the bill from Zac Goldsmith is | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
that people can almost, willy-nilly, launch petitions and sometimes of a | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
politically motivated nature against their opponents. Imagine what will | :36:23. | :36:25. | |
happen in every marginal constituency. Political opponent -- | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
opponents will launch petition of the petition to unseat the opponent. | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
You are nodding your head, and I will come back to you. But I must | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
bring Owen Smith in. You are nodding your head, so you agree that you | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
will support the bill. I was in favour of recall. Which version? I | :36:44. | :36:50. | |
am more in favour of something akin to Zac Goldsmith's. The recall Bill | :36:51. | :36:58. | |
currently looks pretty thin. The problem is is that it leaves recall | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
still largely in the hands of Parliament, and the whole point | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
about recall is that we need to make sure that the public is central to | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
the decision. But it's not easy, because Tom is equally right, if you | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
set the threshold at too low a level you will end up with MPs being | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
attacked. Frankly, the public doesn't really like is it all right | :37:19. | :37:27. | |
now. You might say that there are some amazing constituency MPs. But | :37:28. | :37:29. | |
even the amazing once would have people who don't like them. Let Zac | :37:30. | :37:37. | |
have a word, because he wanted to come back. Who is presenting this | :37:38. | :37:43. | |
programme? You or me? As it stands, you would not support the bill? | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
There is nothing in the bill about the standards committee, so I | :37:49. | :37:50. | |
presume the government will say something about it. We have run out | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
of time, but go ahead. Simply to say there is a safeguard, 20% threshold. | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
There are 40,000 people who took part in the online petition, quite a | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
detailed one, who believes that 20% is the right level, so for me to be | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
recall from my constituency, 15,000 people would have to sign the | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
petition and then there would be a recall referendum. That would not | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
happen unless I had badly let my constituents down. There is nothing | :38:18. | :38:18. | |
to fear from recall. Now, if they vote | :38:19. | :38:20. | |
"Yes" on Thursday Scotland will Well, last week, motivated | :38:21. | :38:22. | |
apparently by a tightening in the polls, the parties supporting a | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
"no" vote came together to promise the swift transfer of additional | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
powers to the Scottish Parliament. But will any post-referendum | :38:31. | :38:32. | |
settlement be fair to people Giles wheeled out | :38:33. | :38:34. | |
his moodbox onto the streets You could not get a more binary | :38:35. | :38:51. | |
question in the Scottish referendum, yes or no, but that's not what we're | :38:52. | :38:54. | |
asking this morning. The Scots have been offered if they vote no | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
something called Devo Max which means they don't have to make cuts | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
to the NHS or welfare benefits and they would get tax raising powers. | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
So the question is, is that fair or unfair to the rest of the UK? From | :39:08. | :39:14. | |
what I know of it, probably unfair, slightly, to the rest of the UK. | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
Better for the Scots. Pop your ball in the unfair slot of the mood box. | :39:21. | :39:26. | |
The Scottish referendum. I don't know anything. That's a big question | :39:27. | :39:34. | |
on Monday morning with a hangover. I think it's fair to the rest of the | :39:35. | :39:40. | |
UK. I think other parts of the UK should probably be offered a similar | :39:41. | :39:45. | |
deal if that happens. Yes. For a hungover man, that's a smart point. | :39:46. | :39:52. | |
I think it is the incompetent politicians trying to bribe the | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
Scots. I am very much for the union, but I think this is a pathetic | :39:56. | :39:57. | |
attempt to win a few votes. They should have more power to | :39:58. | :40:06. | |
decide where they want to spend their money, whether it is the | :40:07. | :40:09. | |
National Health Service or universities. But within the UK? In | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
the UK. I think they should stay in the UK. Technically, it might not be | :40:15. | :40:20. | |
fair, the way the vote is constructive. It has caused so much | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
conversation and the offer of an expanded sense of devolution, so | :40:25. | :40:27. | |
that is useful for everybody. You are very much in the fair camp. Pop | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
that in the box for me. Don't walk off with the ball. Sorry, I'm not | :40:32. | :40:37. | |
paying attention. Doesn't sound like a fair deal for us. Seems like they | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
are getting a big slice of the cake and we are left with the crumbs. Any | :40:42. | :40:49. | |
colour? Any colour you like. No significance to the colour of the | :40:50. | :40:52. | |
balls. Probably fair because it's just extra powers, not a lot of | :40:53. | :40:58. | |
difference. Probably slightly unfair. A bit of a knee jerk | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
reaction from the government, trying to placate the Scots at the last | :41:02. | :41:03. | |
minute. I know the Scottish are having a | :41:04. | :41:11. | |
vote, so should the rest of the UK have a vote? I think it's really | :41:12. | :41:18. | |
unfair. You give them more powers, if they decide that way. Unfair. | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
The only thing we can be confident about the Scottish referendum is | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
that it is going to be very close, and it looks on that border of | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
50/50. And the irony is, so is this. The interesting thing is the | :41:36. | :41:38. | |
different reasons why people have gone fair or unfair but we have | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
counted, and unfair as just, just got it. -- has just. Owen Smith, has | :41:44. | :41:56. | |
it been a bribe on the back of a panic and too much offered to | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
Scotland that will lead to resentment in the rest of the UK if | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
Scotland votes yes? Not at all. Labour had a devolution commission | :42:06. | :42:08. | |
in Scotland eight months ago and proposed that we would have new | :42:09. | :42:12. | |
powers for Scotland over taxation, welfare and housing benefit, and at | :42:13. | :42:15. | |
the same time we announced we would provide the same offer to Wales, | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
putting Wales on the same footing as England in respect of the model of | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
powers, and only three months ago, we had a report and a speech from Ed | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
Miliband talking about devolution to the English regions. We've been | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
talking about it for a long time. I started writing about it in 2000. I | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
will point you to the publication. Please do. I cannot wait. If | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
Scotland votes no and gets the powers is there an appetite in Wales | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
for the same level of autonomy? There's an appetite for the same | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
sort of powers. Devolution, but is their independence desire? No, but | :42:49. | :42:54. | |
there's appetite for power. How much would they like, in terms of | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
tax-raising powers, for example? We think the Welsh people would have to | :43:00. | :43:02. | |
be given a vote on it. We think Wales should have the same | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
tax-raising powers as Scotland. 15p in the pound, the ability to set a | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
progressive rate, as we propose that Scotland, but unlike in Scotland | :43:11. | :43:13. | |
where we never had a vote on tax-raising powers, we would have to | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
have a referendum to determine if Wales would be better off under the | :43:18. | :43:19. | |
scenario and whether the Welsh people wanted. Gosh, another | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
referendum. It's important stuff. Crumbs, I heard, and England left | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
with the leftovers to coin a phrase. Is that how you see it? Do you agree | :43:31. | :43:33. | |
with John Redwood that it is Is that how you see it? Do you agree | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
for an English parliament? There cannot be all this autonomy for | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
Scotland, possibly Wales and Northern Ireland in the future and | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
Scotland, possibly Wales and England gets nothing? It was a bit | :43:46. | :43:48. | |
of a panic measure, watching Gordon Brown, who has no mandate for any of | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
this, a man who led his party to 29% of the vote at the last election and | :43:53. | :43:57. | |
was thrown out, and suddenly announced on the back of an envelope | :43:58. | :44:00. | |
that these are the new powers you will get. He didn't offer as much as | :44:01. | :44:06. | |
the Conservatives. The truth is, there has been desperation from the | :44:07. | :44:09. | |
political establishment to make sure we get the right result. David | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
Cameron probably sanctioned it. I think he went along with it after. | :44:15. | :44:19. | |
There will be resentment from England in particular, I think about | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
the idea of more powers. The idea of having this referendum is to make it | :44:24. | :44:26. | |
clear once and for all, you go independent or not, and if you | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
don't, we will have similar powers. My own view, and I do agree with | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
John Redwood, we now need to think about the idea of having a | :44:36. | :44:37. | |
federalised United Kingdom, have an English Parliament, and the truth | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
for all of us as politicians is this, if we don't grasp the nettle, | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
I can tell you one person who will, that is Nigel Farage that when be in | :44:48. | :44:50. | |
the interest of the political class or the constituents we represent. If | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
we are going to extend the devolution plus group of powers to | :44:56. | :45:01. | |
Scotland, at the self same time, I'd like to see the bill bringing | :45:02. | :45:04. | |
forward making it clear that there would be powers for England, Wales | :45:05. | :45:10. | |
and Northern Ireland. For some it would be absurd to continue having | :45:11. | :45:17. | |
Scottish MPs voting on English-only matters if they have more power and | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
have powers over tax and spend that they should be voting on what could | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
be an English budget? Well this is a problem that has to be solved. What | :45:27. | :45:33. | |
is your view? I think first, it will require devolution to Wales and more | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
devolution to Wales and more devolution to England. I am not sure | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
about whether the English Parliament is the solution. What the Liberal | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
Democrats have been advocating is devolution which is something that | :45:47. | :45:52. | |
people opt into in England in terms of regions like Cornwall. What does | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
that mean? Well some cities want to take on, have wanted to take on | :45:58. | :46:01. | |
responsibilities for certain aspects of their infrastructure and training | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
that we allow them to do that at a pace that is needed. But I accept | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
that the question of Scottish MPs voting on English matters is one | :46:11. | :46:16. | |
that, to which a solution is needed. What has been interesting is that it | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
has forced the pace for the Conservative the Labour Party and | :46:22. | :46:24. | |
the Liberal Democrats to find a collective position on this. But | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
should your Scottish MPs be able to vote on issues that do not affect | :46:30. | :46:37. | |
their constituents. If slapped votes no -- Scotland votes no would it be | :46:38. | :46:44. | |
fair to let that continue? It becomes something that people in | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
England understand less and less the more power that is devolved to | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
Scotland, but they play a key role. So you don't think it is fair. It | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
something we would need to work on quickly having made the commitment | :46:59. | :47:01. | |
from a day after the referendum to move in relation to Scotland. Do you | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
agree it could be particularly pertinent for a Labour Party, | :47:07. | :47:09. | |
talking to John Reid about this, if you have a Labour Government that is | :47:10. | :47:15. | |
reliept on Scottish -- reliant on Scottish Labour MP and tries to push | :47:16. | :47:23. | |
through a budget which is only affecting England and English | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
constituencies it would be ridiculous to have Scottish Labour | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
MPs voting. It would be if it was as simple as that Well it is. But what | :47:33. | :47:39. | |
you would have is a Scottish rate that would demur from an English | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
rate and the English rate would be relevant. All health and public | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
services spending in Wales and in Scotland is because of the Barnett | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
formula contingent on how much is allocated in England. So no more | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
austerity for the NHS in Scotland that would be protected. Nobody is | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
talking about devolving these things. What did you mean... This is | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
not simple and it is not as you describe it. You're not giving | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
powers to Scotland. What I'm trying to get to what is it that is being | :48:09. | :48:14. | |
offered to Scotland, because if they're not going to get powers, | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
that is a different and to some extent the yes campaign are right. | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
That is not what I said. I want to make this point. It is important for | :48:25. | :48:31. | |
voters to understand what is being offered. If the parties are saying | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
we will protect the nature fres austerity in Scotland -- the NHS | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
from austerity in Scotland why not here? That is a different question. | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
You asked what are we offering Scotland. We are offering Scotland | :48:45. | :48:51. | |
the ability to change rate rates and make 60% of all the monies spent in | :48:52. | :49:00. | |
Scotland raised in Scotland. However English tax rates UK-tax rates would | :49:01. | :49:06. | |
be relevant, because they would be shifting from an English rate. All | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
of those things would be voted on by Scottish or Welsh members and be of | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
relevance to the people of Scotland or Wales. It is not as cleanly | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
divided as you are making out. On that note I will have to say goodbye | :49:20. | :49:29. | |
to you all. Now back to Scotland. I am not sure we went far from it. We | :49:30. | :49:35. | |
spoke to John Reid earlier in the programme. We can speak n to Blair | :49:36. | :49:47. | |
Jenkins of the yes campaign. Do you think people will vote yes, because | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
they want a more left-wing and fairer society in Scotland? I think | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
fairness has been a big part of the debate. The idea that as an | :49:57. | :50:01. | |
independent country we can have a more socially just society has been | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
a powerful part of yes campaign. I know a lot of people who have come | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
into the deep and broad yes movement have only come in or have largely | :50:11. | :50:15. | |
come in because of the idea of a more equal society and greater | :50:16. | :50:21. | |
equality and that than a big part of the campaign. Do you think a 3% cut | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
in corporation tax will result in a fairer Scotland? That is an SNP | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
policy. I'm not in the SNP. I understand that but I'm asking for | :50:31. | :50:34. | |
you view on that policy. Do you think that would result in a fairer | :50:35. | :50:40. | |
society? I give can you my views as an individual. If you reduce | :50:41. | :50:45. | |
corporation tax you bring in investment and create thousands of | :50:46. | :50:49. | |
new jobs. So this is something that will have to be put by the SNP in | :50:50. | :50:55. | |
the manifesto in the first election to an independent Scottish | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
Parliament. Do you think it is fairer? Will it help poorer people | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
in Scotland and help working people in Scotland or will it result in a | :51:04. | :51:09. | |
race to the bottom on corporation tax to attract investment and | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
actually is seen as a tax cut for very wealthy? It is not a tax cut | :51:15. | :51:22. | |
aimed at individuals. It will be judged good if people felt it would | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
create more well paid jobs in Scotland. So it is only one of a | :51:27. | :51:31. | |
number of thing we think we can do. There is a view we should raise the | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
minimum wage to the level of living wage and only with independence can | :51:37. | :51:42. | |
we protect public services. This is again, these policy issues are | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
things that all of the parties in Scotland, the Scottish Labour Party | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
and others will have to put to the electorate. The notion of an | :51:52. | :51:58. | |
independent Scotland could set a greater Pars to social justice is a | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
big part of the campaign. What do you say to George Galloway who said | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
that Alex Salmond will cut the taxes on companies to 3%, business will | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
only be attracted to come here, a country of five million people if | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
there is low regularration and low levels of taxation. You can't have | :52:16. | :52:24. | |
Scandinavian levels of tax. He is out of touch with the debate in | :52:25. | :52:30. | |
Scotland. There is a strong view that we can aspire to be more like a | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
Scandinavian society, but it is possible to have both and have | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
successful economy and strong public services and a high degree of | :52:40. | :52:44. | |
commitment to public services. So I don't think there is a need to be | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
engaged in a race to the bottom. You wouldn't get elected in Scotland if | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
you propose to reduce wages. You would have no chance of being | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
elected. If we look then at working people again, Gordon Brown wrote | :52:59. | :53:04. | |
over the weekend the sharing of welfare, health and pensions is best | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
served by staying in the union and Scotland is being sold a lie about | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
independence when looking at the economics. That doesn't stack up. | :53:13. | :53:19. | |
You know we know the total cost of social protection including pensions | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
is a smaller proportion, a smaller share of the total Scottish GDP than | :53:25. | :53:30. | |
the UK as a whole. Pensions are more affordable in an independent | :53:31. | :53:34. | |
Scotland. In the years of devolved Scottish Parliament under successive | :53:35. | :53:37. | |
administrations, the Labour and Liberal Democrat administration and | :53:38. | :53:40. | |
the SNP administration, we have demonstrated a greater commitment to | :53:41. | :53:43. | |
social protection and to looking after one another and I think the | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
Westminster agenda, where increasingly it seems public | :53:48. | :53:51. | |
services are regarded as a regrettable ex-pension, that is not | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
part of -- expense, that is not part of Scottish debate and people here | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
are confident we can do better and the UK state pension is about the | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
worst in Europe. So we believe we can do better. There is a belief | :54:05. | :54:10. | |
here that we can set our our priority and we believe we can grow | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
our economy and improve the living opportunities, the life | :54:15. | :54:17. | |
opportunities of more of our people. Let's turn to something else and the | :54:18. | :54:25. | |
protests against the BBC. Did the yes campaign organise those? No, | :54:26. | :54:31. | |
what you saw outside the BBC was a spontaneous demonstration, social | :54:32. | :54:34. | |
media has lots of things on it and one thing you can do is gather | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
people together quickly. It was a spontaneous protest by people who | :54:40. | :54:45. | |
felt that the BBC was not reporting the referendum impartially. They're | :54:46. | :54:50. | |
entitled to do that. Let's see the pictures. People got together if you | :54:51. | :54:58. | |
didn't sanction it, do you condemn the protests? No, to the best of my | :54:59. | :55:05. | |
knowledge and I spoke to BBC staff here today, and everyone said the | :55:06. | :55:12. | |
protest was good natured and not intimidating, it was a thing that | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
people do in a democracy, that is when they have a feeling they want | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
to vent they vent it. It is a big rally. I don't know if it was | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
intimidating, do you think it will work in your favour? I don't know. | :55:26. | :55:32. | |
Because we didn't organise it. It was something that happened. A lot | :55:33. | :55:35. | |
of what is happening in Scotland now, we are the, the yes movement is | :55:36. | :55:41. | |
the biggest grass movement Scotland has seen. A lot it self-generated by | :55:42. | :55:48. | |
local yes groups. So I think what you saw yesterday was an expression | :55:49. | :55:55. | |
of anger and hurt that some people felt the BBC wasn't doing its job. | :55:56. | :56:01. | |
Over what though exactly? Is the BBC particularly being condemned for | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
drawing attention to things the yes campaign does not want to hear. Does | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
it not questions being put to somebody like Alex Salmond who is | :56:12. | :56:13. | |
more than capable of dealing with them? I am sure Alex Salmond, as a | :56:14. | :56:19. | |
journalist I have found him he is robust in dealing with journalists. | :56:20. | :56:24. | |
So you are afraid of being questioned? I don't think anything | :56:25. | :56:31. | |
could suggest that. People are reflecting the sense that there has | :56:32. | :56:37. | |
been an unwillingness of part of London-based journalists to | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
understand what is happening here the local BBC journalists get elowed | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
aside by the network journalists by the view that there is something | :56:46. | :56:49. | |
strange going on. And those who follow the debate understand it is | :56:50. | :56:56. | |
an open and democratic process and it has been a fantastic thing to go | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
through. The different people have different views, there has been a | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
lot of tension as it got closer, you would expect that that tempers | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
running high and we have seen Jim Murphy being pelted with eggs. We | :57:11. | :57:16. | |
have seen rallies and these things are legitimate in a democracy, but | :57:17. | :57:22. | |
are you confident that there haven't been threats made to businesses who | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
want to speak out against independence and that the media are | :57:27. | :57:33. | |
not being stopped from asking awkward questions? What we notice | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
pressure that is being applied to companies and businesses to | :57:39. | :57:41. | |
intervene is being applied from the no side and it is David Cameron | :57:42. | :57:44. | |
having people around to dreetd to encourage them -- Downing Street to | :57:45. | :57:49. | |
encourage them to intimidate people out of voting yes. The campaign | :57:50. | :57:55. | |
here, it has been a good natured campaign. The very, very small | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
number of occasions where one or two people on either side have behaved | :58:00. | :58:04. | |
inappropriately should not distort the nature of the campaign. The | :58:05. | :58:08. | |
whole world is watching Scotland and the reporting is of a amazele we can | :58:09. | :58:15. | |
-- amazement we can have a debate in such a respectful way. I'm proud of | :58:16. | :58:18. | |
debate in Scotland and I think people on both sides have handled it | :58:19. | :58:24. | |
well. Thank you very much. Only a few more days to go. | :58:25. | :58:27. | |
And if you want more on the Scottish Referendum there's a Panorama | :58:28. | :58:30. | |
Special on tonight presented by my colleague Alan Little looking | :58:31. | :58:32. | |
at what has happened in the past four decades to transform the | :58:33. | :58:35. | |
The One o'clock News is starting over on BBC One now. | :58:36. | :58:46. | |
I'll be here again at noon tomorrow - do join me then. | :58:47. | :58:49. | |
The guns fell silent on November 11th 1918, but the shadow | :58:50. | :59:12. |