16/09/2014 Daily Politics


16/09/2014

Jo Coburn is joined by writer Jeanette Winterson to discuss the day's political news, including the latest on the Scottish independence referendum.


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Transcript


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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The Scottish independence referendum is just two days away!

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The three main party leaders at Westminster have signed

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a pledge promising new powers for Scotland, whichever way Scots vote.

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The SNP says it's an insult and asked why it's taken so long.

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There are growing calls for more powers for the rest of the UK.

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We'll debate whether England needs its own parliament.

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It's often thought that artists are more likely to be on the left.

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We'll bring together two best-selling authors to debate

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He looks like someone has put his finger up their bottom! And do we

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need to lighten up when it comes to a bit of political argy-bargy?

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All that in the next hour and with us for the whole

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of the programme today is the novelist Jeanette Winterson.

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She's perhaps best known as the author of

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This summer she hit the headlines after skinning a rabbit and posting

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And on this programme we like to think we specialise

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in minor controversies that blow up out of all proportion,

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so she should feel right at home. Welcome.

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He said he wouldn't resign despite mounting calls for him to go, but

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in the last hour South Yorkshire's Police and Crime Commissioner has

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stepped down from the role after weeks of pressure over

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Shaun Wright has come under increasing fire

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since the publication of a report into child sexual exploitation

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in Rotherham as he was the councillor with responsibility

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for children's services in the borough from 2005 to 2010.

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"My role as South Yorkshire police and crime commissioner has clearly

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become prominent in terms of public opinion and media coverage following

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This is detracting from the important issue, which should

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be everybody's focus - the 1,400 victims outlined in the report - and

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in providing support to victims and bringing to justice the criminals

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responsible for the atrocious crimes committed against them."

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We are joined now by our correspondent Adam Fleming. Why has

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he gone? He said he was starting to worry that he was detracting from

:03:10.:03:15.

the plight of the survivors. I think he probably realised the writing was

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on the wall last week at a meeting of the police and the panel in that

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region. That is a committee which scrutinises the work of each crime

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commission in each area. There was abuse from the public gallery and it

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got quite heated so he probably saw the scale of the anger that was

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directed at him. The pressure had been piling on him for weeks and

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weeks and weeks. The Labour Party said he should stand down. He

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resigned the whip but not from the job. The Home Secretary and even the

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Prime Minister were saying, do you really want to carry on this job

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considering what has happened? Where does that leave the role of Police

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and Crime Commissioners? They could not actually make him go? That is

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the point, people were asking, how can you get rid of a Police and

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Crime Commissioner? The rules are very strict. They can only be

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chucked out of office if they are convicted of an offence which means

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they go to prison. That has now sparked a big discussion about what

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should happen to these roles in the future. Labour have said they will

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be keen to look at having some sort of recall mess them -- mechanism.

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Theresa May has said she's prepared to have a debate. Nick Clegg has

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said, it is this job even a good idea? Is it an experiment which has

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not worked? In the short-term in South Yorkshire there will be a

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by-election for summer due to take over from Mr Right. We saw easily

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there was a by-election in the Midlands and the turnout was 10%.

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Thank you. Jeanette, was he right to go? Yes, he should have gone right

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from the beginning. If you are is the row hours contract worker you

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can be out of the door straightaway. The higher up the food chain you go,

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the harder it is to get rid of you. We have politicians who are

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insulated from public opinion. But he has gone in the end. The he had

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to. He is a prize that everyone is furious with him. Why have got a

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situation where you cannot get rid of someone like him unless it is a

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criminal offence. G4S are saying, give us contracts for ten years and

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if you change your minds, still payoffs. We are getting to a

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situation where we cannot throw out people in power when they have done

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wrong. We have to wait for them to resign. It is stupid. We will see if

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it changes, the legislation. The question for today is -

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which is the odd one out amongst At the end of the show Jeanette

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will give us the correct answer. With less than two days to go

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until the polls open in the Scottish independence referendum,

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David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg have this morning added

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some meat on to the bones of They have signed a pledge on the

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front of a Scottish newspaper. The pledge on the front page of

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today's daily record newspaper promises a timetable for the

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transfer of further powers to Scotland, in the case of the no

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vote. The politicians guarantee that the final say on NHS funding will

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lie with the government in Scotland, something which has become a major

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part of the Yes campaign in recent weeks. They promise to keep the

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mechanism which allows the higher funding in Scotland than in England,

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known as the Barnett formula. The position for Scotland is becoming

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clearer but what about England? Labour have been calling for more

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devolution for English regions. This does not solve the West Lothian

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question, the fact that MPs from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland

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are allowed to vote on England only matters. Some people think an

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English parliament is the solution but the Prime Minister appeared to

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rule this out last night saying we are not remotely at that stage.

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I'm joined now by Conservative MP Peter Bone and Labour's Lucy Powell

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Lucy, first of all, do we need an English parliament? What we need is

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more devolution to the English regions. I think that city now --

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that train now is unstoppable. Labour have been calling for more

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powers to the city regions. I think we now need much more serious and

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real and significant devolution to the city regions which are chomping

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at the bit. Here we are in Manchester, I am here in Manchester

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and we are ready for that to come. We have been working towards that

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for a time and we want to be unleashed. Dare I say, is it a

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little too little, too late? What you are talking about is localism.

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There is a broad consensus between the parties about offering more

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devolution to other cities in England, but if further devolution

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is agreed for Scotland, that will have huge constitutional

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consequences for the UK which will mean more than just a few powers for

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local government. We are not talking about a few more powers for local

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government. This would be a significant and transformational

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devolution. When you say transformational, what are you

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intending to offer some of the great cities of England? More power and

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control. Labour has promised to devolve ?30 billion of expenditure.

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That would be the first step. We are looking at things like how cities

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can raise their own business rates, how they can spend that, how they

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can spend money around economic development skills, transport,

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things that add a moment they do not have the powers to do. Alongside

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that we would be looking for more accountability and democracy. I am a

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strong supporter of directly elected mayors. But the people in those

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regions have not been very strongly in support. The appetite has not

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been there. It has not been demonstrated in the past. I will

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come back to you in a moment. Is that going to be enough, Peter

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Bone? No. This government is devolving power to local

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authorities. Labour were in power for 13 years and nothing happened.

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They tried to offer directly elected mayors and people did not want them.

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What people are saying now is that if Scotland is going to have more

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powers England has to have its own parliament, English votes for

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English laws. All we have to do is exclude non-English MPs from voting

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on English matters. That was a pledge at the last general election.

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We are only carrying on what we said before. I think the Scottish

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independence debate has highlighted a need for this sensible move. Is it

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the independence debate which have highlighted it or is it that more

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powers have been offered in the closing stages of this campaign by

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your Prime Minister to try and get a No vote? It has highlighted it. It

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was there. It has always been rumbling on. Now people are saying

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in Westminster, this has to be done. People are crying out for the fact

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we do not want Scottish MPs telling the English how to govern England.

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Although it has existed for a long time up until now. That was the West

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Lothian question. What about the West Lothian question, Lucy Powell?

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Does it have to be solved if we are talking about more devolution. What

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would be wrong with an English parliament stopping Scottish MPs

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voting on English only matters? We have to continue to address this

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question of the West Lothian question. How? If I had the answer

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to that, we would have done it a long time ago. I think let's get

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back to what is the actual question here that people are asking. I think

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it is interesting what Peter Bone said. He said people in Westminster

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are crying out for an English Parliament. My constituents are not.

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Had you asked them? They are crying out for two things. The first is

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that Westminster is increasingly remote from their lives. It is

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remitted in terms of the decisions it takes and in their lives. The

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second thing my constituents want is they want a better deal for

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Manchester. They want Manchester to be able to fill its potential. I

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don't think that an English Parliament answers either of those

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questions. What an English Parliament does is create another

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tier, another layer of centralised Westminster -based power. That is

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not what my constituents are crying out for. I am not opposed to an

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English parliament but I do not think it answers the question on the

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table. I will come back to your question about what constituents in

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some of the northern cities are crying out for. Would it be fairer

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that only English MPs vote on English only issues that affect them

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in health and education. Would it be fairer to have that? There are other

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issues we have to consider as well. Is it right that we continue if we

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are going to have more powers going to Scotland, that Scottish MPs

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continue to vote on health and education and then on finance if

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more tax-raising powers are given to Scotland? We have definitely got to

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work these things through. You have also got to consider the unintended

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consequences if you go down that road which is what it means for the

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Westminster UK Parliament and the divine doing of that as well. This

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is not going to be something that we can resolve in a debate like this.

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This is a process that we need to consider. I think we're absolutely

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ready to go with centralisation. Let me put these points to Peter Bone.

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Isn't Lucy Powell right that this government has presided over

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policies and an administration that is geared totally to London and the

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south-east, that that is the problem and Lucy Powell is right to say,

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what they want is more decentralisation? Not another

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Parliament but not every policy focusing on where the votes for

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Conservatives are in the South? Wrong on every count. More and more

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power has been devolved. That is the point. Our localism agenda is doing

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that. No, it hasn't. It has. You have given with one hand and taken

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away with the other. Can you stop laughing at her. This sneery

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contempt is really unattractive. You are smiling away as if to say these

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girls do not know what they are talking about. Let him answer. When

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you say, what examples can you give on localism which have made a

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difference? We are having mayors, for example. Planning is going back

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to local authorities. Know it is not. It is going in completely the

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opposite direction. That is my view. Are they substantial enough powers?

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If there was more decentralisation, would you need an English

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Parliament? That is the point, you can never get to that point. You

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have to have decisions about education and health which have to

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be decided on a national level. The idea that there will be more

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bureaucracy is nonsense. You're going to use the same building and

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the same MPs, it will not cost a penny more. Where would the

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constitutional home be? It would still be in Westminster. When it

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came to UK matters, all MPs in Parliament would vote. All we are

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saying is for purely English matters, English MPs should only

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vote on those. Do you think David Cameron is

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offering too much to Scotland? We don't know, it is all happening too

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quickly. You don't know because? We know they have signed a pledge.

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Party leaders have signed pledges before. The Tory offer is for them

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to have total control over income tax raising powers, is it too much?

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If we go down the route of evolution and as Lucy says it will be a

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difficult discussion. If you're going to go down that route, you

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have got to have English votes for English laws. Lucy Powell, the truth

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is, whichever way you look at it, you could say Labour does not want

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an English parliament because it would make it harder for Labour to

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govern in Westminster. Imagine in 2015 if Ed Miliband wins with a

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small majority it would be reliant on those MPs in Scotland and Wales

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and then they would be able to vote on the budget which would be only

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for England, that would be absurd? You go down the road of creating two

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grades of MPs at your level. Then you have more important MPs and less

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important MPs. There are some tricky issues. It is not a political point.

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Tony Blair's election victories, he won the majorities of MPs in England

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as well. But the likelihood is, Ed Miliband with the reliant on

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Scotland and Wales MPs. These considerations are not based on

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politics, they are based on what are the questions we are trying to

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resolve. It is an internal discussion to think about the West

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Lothian question. Frankly, most of my constituents, I would have

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surprised if hardly any of them had heard of the issue and were bothered

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about it. Peter Bone is shaking his head. If you had a crystal ball,

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what would you do? Would you have a more federal UK, an English

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Parliament and parliaments of the remainder of the UK if Scotland goes

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independent? Or, would you have evolution to other cities or keep it

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as it is? He find the answers when you take the question seriously. The

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Scottish referendum has shown how strong the feeling is for default

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powers. -- devolved powers. We don't have too have everything sitting in

:18:44.:18:47.

Westminster the way we do now. There is a new generation growing up now

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where everything is devolved on media. They don't need a group of

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people in one place. We could think about this in a more radical way, if

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we wanted to. Lucy is right, most people don't care about it. They

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want to know, how am I and my city, are we going to have more say in the

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government. Thank you to my guests. So as we've been saying

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the main party leaders in Westminster have all been talking

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about the powers Scotland will get Well there'll be a lot

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of pressure for Parliament to be Normally at times

:19:26.:19:31.

of great national importance MPs can be recalled to Westminster

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at 48 hours notice, but there's talk Our political correspondent,

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Carole Walker can tell us more. What are the options? If there is a

:19:37.:19:50.

yes vote, MPs across all parties will feel that such as the

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cataclysmic scale of the change we are confronting, it would be

:19:57.:20:00.

unthinkable for parliament not to be recalled. The fracture there would

:20:01.:20:04.

be on the economy, the pound, international relations, Andy Fenn

:20:05.:20:08.

's and the future constitution of the country would be on such a

:20:09.:20:18.

scale, MPs would undoubtedly be recalled. -- defence. Downing Street

:20:19.:20:24.

are not contemplating a yes vote, not making contingency plans, so

:20:25.:20:28.

there are non-contingency plans at the moment but Holloman to be

:20:29.:20:35.

recalled. But in the past few weeks when there has been speculation

:20:36.:20:40.

about the recall of MPs to discuss Iraq and the possibility of Britain

:20:41.:20:47.

being involved in some form of military action, the whips are

:20:48.:20:50.

sending out e-mails to find out where MPs would be just in case

:20:51.:20:56.

parliament needed to be recalled. Quite a few MPs I have spoken to

:20:57.:21:00.

think Parliament should be recalled, even if Scottish voters voted to

:21:01.:21:04.

remain part of the United Kingdom. They feel it is already clear there

:21:05.:21:10.

will be significant changes underway and we saw the pledge from the three

:21:11.:21:15.

UK leaders today and that is something MPs should be recalled to

:21:16.:21:19.

discuss. It is complicated by the fact the Labour Party Conference is

:21:20.:21:24.

due to start at the weekend and many Labour MPs are expect to be there. I

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think that the moment, it is looking probably less likely but on Friday

:21:31.:21:34.

morning, I think there may be renewed calls for MPs to return to

:21:35.:21:40.

discuss the future of the country. It is uncharted territory.

:21:41.:21:44.

When it comes to the arts, whether it's writing, painting,

:21:45.:21:47.

or even comedy, it's often assumed that the majority of artists are

:21:48.:21:49.

And the few who clearly aren't - like the modern artists Gilbert

:21:50.:21:53.

and George or the author PJ O'Rourke - seem to be something

:21:54.:21:56.

If you paint a picture of the politics of art, the assumption is

:21:57.:22:13.

art is the preserve of the left. It is an assumption and I'm not sure

:22:14.:22:18.

how true it is. Art is greater than any ideology. Our response to it is

:22:19.:22:24.

personal and therefore infinite. Any attempt by politicians or parties of

:22:25.:22:31.

either side, to corral artists to their cause has historically been a

:22:32.:22:37.

catastrophe. The art establishment is dominated by left-wing thinking

:22:38.:22:41.

and left-wing expectations and there are people in the world who hold

:22:42.:22:46.

more libertarian views and field their own careers could be

:22:47.:22:49.

negatively affected if they were to come out. However, artists lobby all

:22:50.:22:53.

governments and it is often about funding. Even a leading campaigner

:22:54.:23:02.

admits money may be a personal driver of politics. If you judge a

:23:03.:23:07.

system by how well it supports the less it -- less fortunate you could

:23:08.:23:12.

be an artist through ideology or self-interest. You are more likely

:23:13.:23:16.

to have been poor, you have almost certainly signed on and you are more

:23:17.:23:20.

likely to give your support to the party who has supported you more. It

:23:21.:23:25.

is interesting that some people have come out of the system and continue

:23:26.:23:32.

to be left-wing. JK Rowling was a single parent and on benefits when

:23:33.:23:37.

she wrote her first book but she still supports benefits and rights.

:23:38.:23:46.

The trick the right think the left have conjured it those who potter

:23:47.:23:50.

about in a school of thought who think it is not about class but

:23:51.:23:55.

intersect -- intellectual class. Ballet receives subsidies but the

:23:56.:24:03.

audience are well off enough to buy tickets at full price. Then there is

:24:04.:24:10.

the more exclusively intellectual snobby art. There are things people

:24:11.:24:17.

don't like and not being popular and not being able to pay its own way is

:24:18.:24:21.

not assign it is great, maybe it is a sign it is rubbish and the general

:24:22.:24:26.

public will want to pay to go and see it because it is not very good.

:24:27.:24:32.

But there are left-wingers who think arts subsidy became funding and

:24:33.:24:34.

entertaining or the rich and glamorous. Left wing entertainers

:24:35.:24:42.

think it stops it being edgy. But it boils down as to whether you think

:24:43.:24:45.

art is essential to our social well-being. We're not just here to

:24:46.:24:50.

work our backsides off for 50 years and then died. There are other

:24:51.:24:54.

things to do in between and there are other things to do than shop.

:24:55.:24:59.

What else are we going to do? We have to make sure there are cheap

:25:00.:25:02.

and interesting things to do for youngsters to do if they have not

:25:03.:25:05.

got enough money to buy the things they are told they need to be happy.

:25:06.:25:10.

If I to choose between saving a life of paying for someone to create an

:25:11.:25:14.

optional piece of art which the public may or may not use choose to

:25:15.:25:21.

go to, I will pay to save a life. It is that argument that has coloured

:25:22.:25:22.

the politics of art for so long. Well to discuss this I'm joined

:25:23.:25:28.

by the House of Cards author and Conservative peer,

:25:29.:25:32.

Michael Dobbs, and of course Is there a left-wing bias or stream

:25:33.:25:42.

of thinking in the arts in your mind? I think it is a bit more

:25:43.:25:48.

complicated than that. Art is often has to make a point and the point

:25:49.:25:52.

you have got to make is about the establishment and the existing way

:25:53.:25:58.

of things. Dramatists, journalists as well as artists, tend to be - not

:25:59.:26:04.

so much left or right but antiestablishment. It is the easiest

:26:05.:26:08.

way to go. We have always accused the BBC of being left wing, but

:26:09.:26:12.

Harold Wilson used to accuse it of being right wing. Even Winston

:26:13.:26:18.

Churchill used to accuse the BBC are being left wing. But I think it was

:26:19.:26:23.

more antiestablishment than having a clear political agenda. Is there a

:26:24.:26:28.

feeling that a lot of comedy you hear is actually anti the right

:26:29.:26:34.

rather than antiestablishment? Does the left, in a way dominate the

:26:35.:26:40.

intellectual side of the arts? It has changed, everything changes.

:26:41.:26:46.

Vince Margaret Hatcher came to power we have had a more ideological

:26:47.:26:53.

ride. Margaret Thatcher. It is not just talking about left and right,

:26:54.:26:57.

it is talking about a way that Tory party has remade itself as a party

:26:58.:27:02.

and it has caused a lot of people in the arts to question those values.

:27:03.:27:05.

To look at social justice and inclusion. The arts are for

:27:06.:27:11.

everybody, not just for the elites, the educated and people who have

:27:12.:27:16.

time, money and leisure. Everybody is created in some way. To shut that

:27:17.:27:22.

are for the majority of people is wrong. That is why you get the sense

:27:23.:27:28.

amongst artists that we have to be on the left because we have to be on

:27:29.:27:36.

the side of inclusion. Margaret thatcher has been out of office for

:27:37.:27:43.

years and this debate was going on before her. She altered the way

:27:44.:27:49.

Britain is. What about on the left, surely the left can be criticised

:27:50.:27:52.

for some of the ideas put forward. Why don't people on the right come

:27:53.:27:58.

out and do that in the arts? On the left you want more government. You

:27:59.:28:04.

say we can achieve things for you. I almost call it a deceit almost that

:28:05.:28:10.

the government says it can do everything for you, left-wing

:28:11.:28:14.

government can do everything for you. The right wing says, actually

:28:15.:28:19.

the government cannot do all of this. Government says, we will let

:28:20.:28:29.

G4S do it. You cannot privatise all of life. There are anarchists,

:28:30.:28:36.

loners and misfits in the art world. When you have a big government, most

:28:37.:28:46.

of us work in very solitary ways. It is not because you suddenly see

:28:47.:28:51.

yourself as belonging to the left but you see yourself as a challenge

:28:52.:28:57.

to the status quo. What about the contradiction you could have

:28:58.:29:00.

left-wing ideas for example, being portrayed in theatre in Opera

:29:01.:29:04.

maybe, but the people who watch it are the people with money and the

:29:05.:29:08.

only ones who can afford the tickets. That is more true about

:29:09.:29:15.

opera than theatre. That is why we have more subsidised theatre. It is

:29:16.:29:21.

great people can go for ?10 and see things at the National which then

:29:22.:29:24.

gets transferred is and makes a tonne of money. But I would agree

:29:25.:29:29.

with you, I can afford a ticket. When I was younger I used to pay ?3

:29:30.:29:36.

and stand at the back of the gods. Let's talk about the money issue, it

:29:37.:29:40.

has an influence on the arts in terms of subsidy and who can afford

:29:41.:29:45.

to go and see some of the big West End shows and Opera? Art is wider

:29:46.:29:51.

than Opera. At the end of the day, government should not a supporting

:29:52.:29:55.

the arts to the extent it is the only way for it to survive. I am in

:29:56.:30:00.

favour of temporal tickets. You think everything at the National

:30:01.:30:04.

should be privately funded rush to mark not at all, it is not the point

:30:05.:30:12.

I made. Art should not exist if it is only capable of existing because

:30:13.:30:18.

of taxpayers money. It is OK to subsidise farming? This is a

:30:19.:30:22.

subsidised country, it is all about subsidy. That is where the

:30:23.:30:28.

difference is. The right wing of the argument is we should be doing with

:30:29.:30:37.

less subsidy. Not only did Margaret Thatcher pay for everything by

:30:38.:30:39.

selling it all off, it is all subsidy. Art and drama is not

:30:40.:30:45.

documentary. Are you saying this government is not subsidising.

:30:46.:30:52.

Listen to what I am saying. Are you saying this government is not

:30:53.:30:57.

subsidising? Are you saying this government does not subsidise rich

:30:58.:30:58.

farmers? Let's come back to the reason for

:30:59.:31:09.

the subsidy on the arts. Without a lot of subsidy, the Arts Council

:31:10.:31:13.

would say their subsidies have been cut. -- their grants have been cut.

:31:14.:31:21.

If you go back 200 years ago, the art we are looking at now is not the

:31:22.:31:26.

art of 200 years ago. It does not all take place in these glorious

:31:27.:31:31.

rich stucco fronted buildings. That is a small part of art. What

:31:32.:31:36.

Jeanette does, what I do, what other people do is art and we do not do

:31:37.:31:41.

that in these great big buildings. It is easy for writers and it has

:31:42.:31:58.

never been easier because you can self publish now. What we do is

:31:59.:32:01.

cheap. When you put on a show you are talking about money and that

:32:02.:32:04.

money has to come from somewhere. What you cannot have in theatre is

:32:05.:32:06.

innovation without cash behind it. We need cash. Looking at artists on

:32:07.:32:09.

the right, who'd you admire most? Is there someone that you do look at

:32:10.:32:15.

who is broadly from the right? I really like Tracey Emin's work and

:32:16.:32:20.

she has destabilised the way we think about art. She is a great

:32:21.:32:24.

thing in the art world but I cannot bear her political views. You have

:32:25.:32:29.

to make those distinctions. Right, we have to leave it there.

:32:30.:32:33.

Now - the eagle-eyed among you will have noticed that Andrew's been

:32:34.:32:36.

So far he hasn't sent so much as a postcard or the tin

:32:37.:32:40.

Instead he's been on the campaign trail with both sides ahead of

:32:41.:32:45.

First up, here he is out and about with the Yes campaign in Hamilton.

:32:46.:33:06.

Hamilton, a working-class town to the south-east of Glasgow. This used

:33:07.:33:11.

to be a place where they did not bother to count Labour votes, they

:33:12.:33:17.

just weighed them. In 1967, it was the scene of one of the most

:33:18.:33:20.

dramatic political upsets in political history. Willie Ewing came

:33:21.:33:26.

from nowhere to win a by-election for the Scottish Nationalists.

:33:27.:33:30.

Labour subsequently reclaimed the territory. This is the kind of place

:33:31.:33:35.

where the Nationalists have been doing well and Yes vote will be

:33:36.:33:40.

looking for a repeat of the spirit of 1967 because they need to do well

:33:41.:33:44.

in places like this if they are to win on Thursday.

:33:45.:33:48.

Towns like this, especially in the West of Scotland, have become the

:33:49.:33:51.

battle ground for the campaign. There are a lot of older voters,

:33:52.:33:57.

voters who used to vote Labour and are on modest incomes. There is a

:33:58.:34:01.

fair degree of social deprivation. The Yes campaign knows it needs to

:34:02.:34:05.

win a chunk of these categories if it is to win on Thursday. When I

:34:06.:34:11.

spoke Alex Salmond last weekend, he said the Yes campaign was making

:34:12.:34:15.

progress in every Democratic group except the over 60s. They were more

:34:16.:34:23.

wary of independence. He said he would concentrate on them. That is

:34:24.:34:27.

why Nicola Sturgeon is in an area like this because there are a lot of

:34:28.:34:31.

old people here. They were probably traditional Labour voters but the

:34:32.:34:35.

Yes people think their votes are now up for grabs. They used to just

:34:36.:34:40.

weighed the votes here, didn't they? They did. It is SNP we have been

:34:41.:34:46.

voting for in recent years. Labour are not better than the Tories when

:34:47.:34:51.

it comes to their politics. They are going to do away with bus passes and

:34:52.:34:56.

things which will affect pensioners. I am a unionist. I was in the

:34:57.:35:00.

forces, I swore allegiance to the Queen. I will not be swearing

:35:01.:35:05.

allegiance to help residential, whoever he is. This is not safe and

:35:06.:35:12.

pensions are not safe and it is getting through to people. Is it

:35:13.:35:19.

clear cut or will it be down to the wire? Down to the wire. The people

:35:20.:35:27.

you speak to are worried about the National Security in Scotland. The

:35:28.:35:32.

size of our army, different things. Pensions. That is a worry? That is

:35:33.:35:39.

why we came today. The Yes campaign knows it has to reassure older

:35:40.:35:43.

people about their pensions if it is to get their votes. Increasingly,

:35:44.:35:48.

the message I think is resonating with the older generation is when

:35:49.:35:51.

they know their pensions are safe, they want a very Yes to give the

:35:52.:35:56.

Next Generation better prospects in the future. I think that is why we

:35:57.:35:59.

will see more older people vote yes on Thursday. People think Labour

:36:00.:36:08.

voters will be more for the No camp and Nationalists are more for Yes.

:36:09.:36:14.

That is not how it is working. A lot of Nationalists will vote No, a lot

:36:15.:36:19.

of Labour voters will vote Yes. It seems one of the biggest deciding

:36:20.:36:24.

factors is levels of deprivation. The less of a stake you have on

:36:25.:36:28.

society, the more you are struggling, the more likely you are

:36:29.:36:33.

now to vote Yes. That is why another reason why Nicola Sturgeon is in

:36:34.:36:37.

Hamilton. And on tomorrow's show you can see

:36:38.:36:41.

Andrew out and about Joining us from Glasgow is

:36:42.:36:43.

Richard Walker, the editor of the Sunday Herald which has come out in

:36:44.:36:47.

favour of independence, and with me in the studio is the Daily Mail's

:36:48.:36:51.

Deputy Editor Tony Gallagher. Welcome to both of you.

:36:52.:36:56.

First of all, how much weight do newspaper editorials carry with

:36:57.:37:01.

their readers? I think the days of newspapers being able to sway large

:37:02.:37:07.

numbers of readers have gone, it is ever they existed. Nevertheless, I

:37:08.:37:13.

think newspapers are still important. When we made our

:37:14.:37:17.

declaration of favour of Yes, we got a huge groundswell of support which

:37:18.:37:20.

was very heartening and welcoming for us. I think clearly we put

:37:21.:37:27.

forward our arguments in favour of Yes and we hope some readers will

:37:28.:37:32.

take those on board. We are not telling readers we think Yes was the

:37:33.:37:35.

right answer and you should all follow what we say, our readers are

:37:36.:37:40.

way smart enough to decide that for themselves. Do you agree with that

:37:41.:37:45.

that they hold less power and sway these days? I think in the era of

:37:46.:37:51.

social media that is undoubtedly the case. Readers by newspapers in large

:37:52.:38:01.

part to reinforce their own views. They are very influential with

:38:02.:38:05.

political class. I think politicians of all stripes will look at

:38:06.:38:08.

newspaper editorials almost before they look at anything else to see if

:38:09.:38:12.

they are mentioned in dispatches. The idea they would sway large

:38:13.:38:17.

numbers of people is a myth. But you have come out in favour of the

:38:18.:38:23.

union. To some extent, are you preaching to the converted? We feel

:38:24.:38:28.

passionately that the union is a good thing and it should remain in

:38:29.:38:32.

place. It is the most beneficial union we think has existed through

:38:33.:38:37.

the modern age. We had a shared sense of national identity what

:38:38.:38:41.

Scots have achieved is truly remarkable and they have punched

:38:42.:38:45.

above their weight. The idea that we would be turning Scots friends,

:38:46.:38:49.

neighbours and relatives into foreigners is an anathema to us

:38:50.:38:53.

which is why we are fully behind the No vote and the union remaining in

:38:54.:39:00.

place. Richard, is it lonely being the only paper to come out in

:39:01.:39:04.

support of Alex Salmond? No, it is not lonely at all. We have a huge

:39:05.:39:10.

number of readers. It is strange in a media landscape there is only one

:39:11.:39:15.

newspaper in support of Yes. I think that's something about our democracy

:39:16.:39:19.

and one of the we wanted to state where we stood was there is a huge,

:39:20.:39:25.

at least 50% of the population support independence and there is no

:39:26.:39:29.

newspaper reflecting that view. I think that is not healthy. What you

:39:30.:39:35.

make of the fact that your sister paper, the Herald, has come out in

:39:36.:39:41.

favour of the No campaign. Newspapers will not criticise a

:39:42.:39:47.

newspaper for stating of you. Our proprietor holds us to say what we

:39:48.:39:52.

think is the best outcome. That is a healthy situation for newspapers to

:39:53.:39:57.

be in. The Herald and the Sunday Herald are different newspapers,

:39:58.:40:00.

they have different editors. We each came to our own conclusions and they

:40:01.:40:05.

are different conclusions. I think that is much healthier than having a

:40:06.:40:09.

proprietor which is telling us to do one thing or have to do the same

:40:10.:40:16.

thing. I think that would be an untenable situation for me as an

:40:17.:40:20.

editor. The Daily Mail has been accused of printing one view on the

:40:21.:40:26.

front cover of the English edition and a contrary front page in the

:40:27.:40:30.

Scottish edition. Do you think that works? They do have different

:40:31.:40:37.

readers. Culturally the idea that we should be presenting a uniform paper

:40:38.:40:42.

would be a mistake, just as the BBC provides a different service north

:40:43.:40:46.

of the border to its viewers. I think the Daily Mail quite rightly

:40:47.:40:50.

should be providing a different menu for readers who have different

:40:51.:40:53.

cultural and political interests. You do not think it is treating

:40:54.:40:59.

readers like fools for doing that? Not at all. The idea that we should

:41:00.:41:03.

be providing one newspaper the whole of Great Britain would be a mistake.

:41:04.:41:08.

Scottish people have many different interests, cultural, sporting and

:41:09.:41:12.

political interests. The idea they should be force-fed huge amounts of

:41:13.:41:15.

Westminster politics when Holyrood is important to them would be a

:41:16.:41:19.

mistake. As much as anything, it would be the road to commercial

:41:20.:41:24.

ruin. People want newspapers which are relevant to them. That has been

:41:25.:41:29.

a lot of speculation about what the Scottish Sun will do. Will they join

:41:30.:41:35.

the yes camp, does it matter? I think it would be great if the

:41:36.:41:38.

Scottish Sun came out in favour of it. It would be clearly two

:41:39.:41:43.

newspapers supporting Yes rather than just one is fairer, it even is

:41:44.:41:53.

the right. Do you think the spectacle of London based papers

:41:54.:41:56.

coming out in favour of Better Together could harm the campaign? I

:41:57.:42:04.

do not. I think what is harming the campaign is the spectacle of

:42:05.:42:07.

politicians panicking and charging north of the border having woken up

:42:08.:42:10.

to the idea that they might be losing in the last couple of weeks.

:42:11.:42:15.

I think it has been rather un-edifying. It has smacked of

:42:16.:42:20.

complacency. When they open their mouths, the tendency to resort to

:42:21.:42:24.

bullying and hectoring the Scots has been a catastrophe. The idea that

:42:25.:42:27.

Scotland would not be capable of ruling on its own as an insult and

:42:28.:42:36.

extremely patronising. But equally, the idea that we should be shouting

:42:37.:42:38.

at Scots the entire time without highlighting benefits of the unit --

:42:39.:42:41.

union would be a mistake. Newspapers, Jeanette, could you be

:42:42.:42:49.

persuaded? I could be persuaded. I am a Guardian reader, what do you

:42:50.:42:56.

expect? Surprise, surprise! I read the Daily Telegraph sometimes and

:42:57.:43:00.

also the Daily Mail as well. We do not need on a law, we need a

:43:01.:43:04.

dialogue, that is what newspapers can offer. You need people who can

:43:05.:43:09.

put across a point of view to allow you to change our mind. I think we

:43:10.:43:13.

need to be more optimistic. If a newspaper has a strong belief, a

:43:14.:43:16.

strong opinion, then why not put it across. I want someone to argue with

:43:17.:43:21.

me. As long as it is not the karate chop syntax of fake headlines to

:43:22.:43:25.

sell the paper, let's have a proper debate. The idea we should not have

:43:26.:43:32.

proper opinions is a mistake. The idea that newspaper editorials can

:43:33.:43:36.

change your mind is overstated and as much a newspaper myth as reality.

:43:37.:43:41.

Gentlemen, thank you very much. Enjoy the last few days.

:43:42.:43:44.

The women that I knew who raised me calm and thoughtful?

:43:45.:43:54.

The women that I knew who raised me and millions of people like me, who

:43:55.:43:59.

ran our factories and our businesses, put out the fires when

:44:00.:44:05.

the bombs trot, they would not have recognised their definition of

:44:06.:44:15.

womanliness as being incorporated in an iconic model of Margaret

:44:16.:44:18.

Thatcher, two rebuke to the first Prime Minister deputed by female

:44:19.:44:28.

gender, OK, but a woman, not on my terms. The big thing is UKIP and

:44:29.:44:35.

Nigel Farage. Come over here, the Romanians and Bulgarians are putting

:44:36.:44:40.

everything at risk. I think he looks like someone has put their finger at

:44:41.:44:45.

his bottom. Are you allowed to say that? It is too late! He can

:44:46.:44:51.

embarrass and self, he can disgrace his party but what is intolerable is

:44:52.:44:56.

he has cynically raised the hopes of hundreds and thousands... Miserable

:44:57.:45:09.

pipsqueak of a man! Order, order, before we go any further, I must ask

:45:10.:45:14.

the honourable gentleman to withdraw the term he used. I think I heard

:45:15.:45:20.

the term pipsqueak. The honourable gentleman must withdraw that term.

:45:21.:45:32.

You say the public switch off at political slanging matches? If you

:45:33.:45:44.

look at PMQs, it is the only bit of the debate people tune into. It is

:45:45.:45:50.

the only way to test parliamentarian's metal. Everything

:45:51.:46:00.

is so manufactured. The one time we get to see what politicians are like

:46:01.:46:04.

is when they go to and Neil at each other. To avoid that it would leave

:46:05.:46:10.

us with these endless drones of dieticians who are boring and dull.

:46:11.:46:17.

-- politicians. We see them in their most natural state when they are

:46:18.:46:25.

aggressive. Isn't that true? People want characters, personalities,

:46:26.:46:27.

mavericks and people to speak their mind. The way Harry outlined it, it

:46:28.:46:34.

is stage-managed, why do we have more of the argy-bargy? It is a

:46:35.:46:39.

little bit stage-managed. I think you are right about the spin and

:46:40.:46:44.

stage management. And stage management. And we think it is just

:46:45.:46:47.

a performance and we cannot get behind to the truth. I am just not

:46:48.:46:52.

sure we really need to have the slanging matches and are getting

:46:53.:46:56.

down and dirty when we're watching people have a debate. I have got an

:46:57.:47:03.

issue because I do think there is a gender problem, because a lot of

:47:04.:47:06.

women are not attracted by that and not very good at it. You are good at

:47:07.:47:14.

it. Harriet Harman is not a shrinking violet. She is going at it

:47:15.:47:23.

like the rest of them. The transport minister, the defence minister, they

:47:24.:47:28.

are powerful women. I resent the fact people will say, shouting isn't

:47:29.:47:34.

for women. We have this model as if it is almost, what we are seeing is

:47:35.:47:43.

this is how politics is being done which is a male preserve and if we

:47:44.:47:48.

put a woman in their she has got to behave like one of the boys. We say

:47:49.:47:51.

she has got balls. We use these terms. If the model of a politician

:47:52.:47:56.

is a male combative model, maybe women want to do things differently.

:47:57.:48:04.

I think they do. Isn't there a line between passionate debate and

:48:05.:48:07.

personal slanging matches? Sometimes the debate does get reduced to a

:48:08.:48:14.

slanging match which does not show the intellectual power of

:48:15.:48:16.

politicians. There are lines we cannot cross, it has to be around

:48:17.:48:26.

the issue at hand. A good parliamentarian is the one who has

:48:27.:48:30.

the skills to remain on the right side of the rules. I think people

:48:31.:48:35.

should care I get angry, it does matter. I would like to see

:48:36.:48:38.

politicians going out more with their constituents and having to

:48:39.:48:46.

but... A bit like the Scottish campaign, out on the streets. Jim

:48:47.:48:52.

Murphy, a Labour hard man saying they threw eggs at me and called me

:48:53.:48:57.

names. Alastair Darling when he was confronted by the TV debate

:48:58.:49:00.

audience, he said it was an Axa double. Nigel Farage said he did not

:49:01.:49:13.

like it out in the field. Nigel Farage deserves what he gets. If

:49:14.:49:18.

they are to be strong and tough, do they have to withstand that thing?

:49:19.:49:22.

It comes with the territory. You have to expect some people will not

:49:23.:49:28.

like you and freedom of speech is not just for politicians it is for

:49:29.:49:32.

people to vent their anger to politicians. There is a line and

:49:33.:49:36.

when it becomes physical intimidation, it is an issue. The

:49:37.:49:40.

idea politicians are not the most popular people in the world is

:49:41.:49:45.

absurd. They should wake up and realise this anger is out there. We

:49:46.:49:52.

are saying get on the streets and you will feel the anger coming back

:49:53.:49:56.

at you. It is the level of debate in Westminster which distracts from the

:49:57.:49:59.

important questions the public are trying to grasp. Serious things.

:50:00.:50:07.

Party political point scoring? Yes. I agree, we are about to enter into

:50:08.:50:16.

a general election campaign full of tedium. The reason we are going to

:50:17.:50:20.

be able to test politicians are when things go wrong and get nasty. When

:50:21.:50:27.

they make mistakes. The point I was trying to make is, we should be

:50:28.:50:31.

celebrating these mistakes and celebrate the rawness of politics

:50:32.:50:34.

because that is when we see the truth. Does it turn voters off, do

:50:35.:50:40.

you feel people just think, it is not for me? I think this shouting

:50:41.:50:46.

turns people off, but if we got politicians out onto the streets and

:50:47.:50:50.

have them participating in a democracy rather than sit down

:50:51.:50:56.

democracy, this is what we were talking about at the beginning.

:50:57.:50:59.

Politicians are often insulated from the views of the public. Let's see

:51:00.:51:06.

what happens in Scotland before we can decide whether the negativity of

:51:07.:51:10.

raw politics turns people off. It has been a passionate campaign. This

:51:11.:51:17.

is such an important issue and the Scots are on it, unlike the wimpy

:51:18.:51:18.

English. Let's leave it there. And now back to the Scottish

:51:19.:51:22.

independence referendum. According to reports this morning

:51:23.:51:24.

the unionists have been outgunned by independence supporters

:51:25.:51:27.

in the final days of the campaign when it comes to billboards,

:51:28.:51:30.

leaflets and knocking on doors. But just how important has

:51:31.:51:32.

advertising been over Well if you're watching in Scotland

:51:33.:51:34.

you can hardly have missed them, but for the rest of our viewers here's a

:51:35.:51:42.

taste of what you've been missing. I am going to be born on the 18th of

:51:43.:52:08.

September 2014. The very same day as the referendum on independence for

:52:09.:52:13.

Scotland. Have you made a decision yet? I was like, it is too early to

:52:14.:52:21.

be discussing politics. Independence, it is what we want in

:52:22.:52:25.

our lives so why should our country be independent. We don't want to be

:52:26.:52:31.

a separate nation, we want to be a better nation. You know what? I have

:52:32.:52:42.

made up my mind. I am going to do what is best for Scotland. So, that

:52:43.:52:50.

will be known from me. When the 18th of September arrives and I arrived,

:52:51.:52:56.

please vote yes for Scotland, for yourself and for your children's

:52:57.:53:02.

future. Right, I have heard that one before. Watching that was Chris

:53:03.:53:12.

Fairhurst from an advertising agency and Gordon Young who is an editor.

:53:13.:53:16.

Gordon, what makes a good elliptical advert? Something that can sum up

:53:17.:53:25.

the proposition neatly and put it forward in a clean and single-minded

:53:26.:53:34.

way. Do people agonise, we have seen advertising agencies going over

:53:35.:53:38.

slogans and headlines? People do agonise. People in the public would

:53:39.:53:45.

be amazed how long people spend coming up with 32nd television

:53:46.:53:51.

adverts. What effect do you think adverts and the leaflets have had on

:53:52.:53:55.

this independence referendum campaign? I think the adverts,

:53:56.:54:04.

posters and TV commercials, my suspicion is not very much at all. I

:54:05.:54:09.

inked the marketing that probably hasn't had a lot -- has had a lot

:54:10.:54:20.

more effect, the more 121 advertising. Partly because of the

:54:21.:54:23.

nature of the campaign but also because of the advertising that has

:54:24.:54:27.

been done is not very good. Do you agree? People pay a lot for

:54:28.:54:35.

advertising. In America, they think it works to a great extent. But do

:54:36.:54:39.

you agree it has not had a great impact? Relative to what political

:54:40.:54:45.

advertising looks like, the Yes campaign has look good. The Better

:54:46.:54:50.

Together campaign has look poor. Why is that? It has been a bit

:54:51.:54:58.

disjointed. Is it Better Together, let's stick together, is it no

:54:59.:55:03.

thanks? They have come out with all sorts of different colours and

:55:04.:55:08.

oppositions. The Yes campaign has been more consistent and

:55:09.:55:14.

professional. Is it easier because it has been clearer than having

:55:15.:55:17.

three other parties joining with slightly different messages? I am

:55:18.:55:24.

certain it is part of it. I think also, the Yes campaign has been more

:55:25.:55:30.

coherent because the advertising tends to be an emotional medium and

:55:31.:55:38.

I think the Yes campaign's idea has been an emotional idea. Where as the

:55:39.:55:41.

No campaign have attempted to communicate through rational fact.

:55:42.:55:48.

What they have learned is it does not do the job of persuading people,

:55:49.:55:54.

you need to do both. How would you choose who would represent your yes

:55:55.:55:56.

or No campaign? Who would you have going back, who would trusted and

:55:57.:56:03.

credible? The big opportunity for the Yes campaign is it is a positive

:56:04.:56:08.

proposition from the start. They have had the commercial where they

:56:09.:56:14.

featured a baby who was born on referendum day and trying to work

:56:15.:56:17.

out what would happen over the lifetime of that child. Selling hope

:56:18.:56:22.

which is tied up with a new baby. The No campaign have been negative

:56:23.:56:28.

with the proposition of the woman. They had a woman who said she is too

:56:29.:56:33.

busy for politics because she is too busy serving her family serial. It

:56:34.:56:38.

is not so much the individuals, it is what they are saying that is

:56:39.:56:43.

important. Do you agree with the mother in the campaign because it

:56:44.:56:48.

has been criticised. I do agree with that. Not going to appeal to the

:56:49.:56:54.

family and women voters? Particularly these days, people are

:56:55.:57:00.

very sophisticated in terms of how they understand advertising. I would

:57:01.:57:08.

lay this criticism to both camps. Simply putting the person in the ad

:57:09.:57:12.

you want to talk to and said this is a person of your age, sex or

:57:13.:57:17.

whatever, and said this message is for you. People see through that and

:57:18.:57:24.

want more these days. Do you think it is worth spending those sums of

:57:25.:57:31.

money on these campaigns? It is high risk, but when you get it right. In

:57:32.:57:36.

the case are Better Together, probably best to do nothing at all.

:57:37.:57:40.

Their strategy has not converted a lot of no voters to yes. So when you

:57:41.:57:47.

get it wrong it can go badly wrong. What do you think is most important,

:57:48.:57:51.

leaflets through the door, as opposed to TV adverts? Leaflets

:57:52.:57:58.

through the door, it has been the physical passion that has fired up

:57:59.:58:02.

the Scots. Both campaigns have been a bit wishy-washy. If you are not in

:58:03.:58:09.

the United Kingdom, these adverts look exactly alike and they just

:58:10.:58:15.

took the captions off them and you could not tell the difference. But

:58:16.:58:18.

on the ground, people can feel the heat. Thank you both very much.

:58:19.:58:22.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:58:23.:58:25.

Which is the odd one out. I hope it is Nick Clegg. If not, let it beat

:58:26.:58:48.

John Major, which is it? It is Nick Clegg.

:58:49.:58:51.

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