11/09/2014 Daily Politics


11/09/2014

Jo Coburn is joined by Polly Toynbee to discuss the latest political news, including Westminster reaction to Barack Obama's announcement of airstrikes against IS in Iraq and Syria.


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good afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics. President

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good afternoon, welcome to the Daily United States will extend attacks on

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the -- into Syria, should written joining with the militants? Some of

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Scotland's biggest financial institutions say they will relocate

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part of their business to England if there is a yes vote. Is the momentum

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swinging back to the no campaign? 1400 children abused in Rotherham by

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gangs of men of Pakistani heritage will stop was political correctness

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to blame for a lack of action by police and the local council?

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And why can politics make us so dam angry?

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All that in the next hour. With us for the whole of the programme

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today, someone who David Cameron once told his party they should

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learn to love, Polly Toynbee, welcome to the programme.

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The chairman of John Lewis, Charlie Mayfield, has warned of the

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likelihood of higher prices in its Scottish stores in an independent

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Scotland. Those claims have been dismissed by the pro-independence

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campaign but it is the latest in a number of warnings to the business

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community about the impact of a yes vote. At the beginning of the week,

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the yes campaign was in buoyant spirits with polls suggesting a

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narrow lead for independence. The last 24-hour 's have slightly

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dampened the mood. Three of Scotland's biggest financial

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institutions have confirmed they would move parts of their business

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south of the border if Scotland votes yes. The Royal Bank of

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Scotland would move its head office and registered office to London.

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Lloyds would move its legal home to its head office which is already in

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London. Standard life said it would create companies in England to

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protect its customers. Governor of the Bank of England Mark Carney told

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MPs on the Treasury committee that in the event of a yes vote, Scotland

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would need to amass billions of pounds of currency in reserves. And

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a new poll shows a 6 Point lead for the no campaign. SNP leader Alex

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Salmond has hit back, saying the leader of these offers -- the move

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of these offices would have no impact on jobs or services. He was

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sounding confident of a yes vote in XP's poll. -- next week's poll.

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Scotland is on the cusp of making history, the eyes of the world are

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upon Scotland and what Scotland is saying is an articulate, peaceful,

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energise debate. Scotland will vote yes next Thursday. And they will

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vote yes because last-minute cobbled up promises from the no campaign,

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which unravel at the slightest scrutiny, will not throw anyone in

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this country and neither will be latent bullying and intimidation of

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the Westminster government. Joining me from Glasgow is the

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Liberal Democrat MP and former leader of the Liberal Democrats,

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Charles Kennedy. Welcome to the Daily Politics. He is sounding ever

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so confident. Yes and good luck to him. I am one of those who always

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thought this would be a very tight on the night finish and so will

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prove. As we go into the last week, we are hearing noises from outside

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the political circus, warning us as to what may or may not be the

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locations. Scots will have to weigh those up for themselves, take them

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seriously. I also think, this is why have been campaigning in Glasgow

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this morning, we have got to be positive, both about what the union

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has brought for Scotland over the centuries, and what Scotland has

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brought to the union and how much more we can still achieve together.

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Do you think it has been too negative, all about the risks and

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warnings that Alistair Darling and the Better Together campaign have

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run a downbeat campaign? I don't think they have run a downbeat,

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negative campaign. I think we have asked all of the pertinent westerns

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that need to be asked, we have asked them repeatedly and have not had

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many concise answers, that is putting it diplomatically. I think

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at the same time -- the pertinent questions. There is a case for

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taking things forward after the referendum. Not just those of us in

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the no camp. An awful lot of Scots and civic Scotland, many of whom

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will vote yes, but they should have an input as well into how we get

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Scotland onto a better footing within a UK that is on a better

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footing. That seems to be moving in a more federal correction. You say

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there should be a more positive note sounded. The Better Together

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campaign and your colleagues have said there is great uncertainty and

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that is underlined by the reaction from some businesses and financial

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institutions. Is what you are offering now, postal votes have been

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cast before the offer, is it any more certain, there are three

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different versions of what extended powers Scotland would have in the

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event of a no vote. Actually the truth is there is more uncertainty

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with what you are offering. I would not have started from where we are

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right now left to myself. I argued it was better to have an agreed

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package. But even if we have a finally agreed package amongst the

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three principal UK parties, that would not be the end. We couldn't

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absolutely say, there is the deal, seal it, because you would still

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have to go out after the referendum and consult many people who had

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voted yes, to get their input as well. Because all the experience in

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Scotland and indeed elsewhere in the UK shows that to get good lasting

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constitutional change, you have got to go beyond the boundaries of one

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bit of the argument. You have got to try to embrace positively as many

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people from other parts, too. Let's talk about certainty. Scottish

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voters want to know how it will affect them directly and be Better

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Together campaign has said it can give guarantees. What guarantee can

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you give in terms of powers over levels of taxation for Scotland if

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they vote to stay together? The level of guarantee is simply this.

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You have the Conservative Party, Labour Party and Liberal Democrats

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and whatever the arithmetic of the next House of Commons, all are

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agreed that there is going to have to be a greater share of tax raised

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within Scotland. How much? As I said, you can't begin the detailed

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discussions on that until after the referendum. Not just because of the

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three parties, but because of the wider interests in the trade union

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movement, in business, in civic Scotland as a whole that are going

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to have to be involved. You have also got to look at how this impacts

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on the rest of the United Kingdom, too. In Wales, Northern Ireland, the

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regions and across England as a whole. There is a great deal more

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work to be done. We have a settled base camp and that is next Thursday,

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a week to day. That is Scotland staying in the UK. Let's have the

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answer is, yes we are, we are going to vote no. But then we are going to

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take it forward. There are three different offers and there are

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Scottish voters I have spoken to who are just not sure what will actually

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come out of it, what will they get in terms of labour, depending on

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what happens in 2015, their offer is lower in terms of power is lower in

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terms of powers going to Scotland in the event of a no vote, and that

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doesn't fill many Scottish voters with great reassurance. All I can

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say is that in the real world, all three of us, the Conservative Party,

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Labour Party, Liberal Democrats, we will have to compromise and we have

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act knowledge that by signing what we have signed, at a UK level and a

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Scottish level -- we have acknowledged that. We are going to

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have to go wider than just ourselves to win wider acceptance. The no

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vote, having this referendum behind us, will in fact bolster that. Alex

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Salmond, from his point of view, talks about having a mandate to

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negotiate independence. The application being, he negotiates and

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then he comes back. There is no coming back, there is no going back.

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Whatever is negotiated, that is it. In our case we have a mandate, to

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agree amongst ourselves as the political parties, but that mandate

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must extend beyond us if it is to win the commonweal, if it is to win

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wider acceptance. That is the business we are on. Stay with us, I

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think we have Dennis Canon from the yes campaign. I don't know how much

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of Charles Kennedy you were able to hear. I didn't hear any of it,

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unfortunately. Let's start from the beginning, then. Statements from

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businesses like RBS, Lloyds and standard life. Do you agree that

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what they have said only serves to underline the uncertainty that would

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result in a yes vote? I think it has got to be clear, first of all, that

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RBS have indicated that there will be no transfer of jobs or operations

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out of Scotland. If there is a degree of uncertainty, I think it is

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Charles's coalition government and his colleague, Danny Alexander and

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his boss, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who are responsible. All

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of the Unionist parties have ganged up against the democratically

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elected Scottish Government and said, in effect, no way will we have

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a currency union. And that is what is causing the uncertainty, because

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there is a great leap throughout Scotland that these politicians in

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Westminster are just bluffing, and that when we get a yes vote, the

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reality will kick in and good Liberal Democrat MPs like Charles

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will save for the good of Scotland and the good of the MP, let's go

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with this currency union. Let's put that to Charles Kennedy. Will you

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and your colleagues at Westminster immediately say, let's talk currency

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union? I am sorry. Because of a lot of internal BBC chatter, I come to,

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missed what it was you were talking with Dennis about so can you bring

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up to speed? -- I, too, missed what it was. The line is that you have

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ganged up on the currency issue and it is your full that there is this

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uncertainty that has led to businesses saying they may have to

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move part of their business, and that when there is a yes vote on the

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19th, you will all fall into line and start talking currency union.

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Dennis is one of my favourite stars in politics and always has been, I

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will not hear a word against him but what I will say is I think he has

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had some distinct ideas of his own about his preferred option for a

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Scottish currency. After this referendum, if it was yes, we

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achieved independence. The fact of the matter is, let's deal with the

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world as we know it. Not what the politicians are saying, but what

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business and commerce are pointing out. That is the most reliable guide

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on which we can base future progress. That is the world is at

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least highly uncertain. I find it interesting that the yes campaign,

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led by Alex Salmond, are saying the best option for Scotland and

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currency is the option we have got. Agreed, agreed. So let's keep it.

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Let's not upturned the applecart by voting for independence. Alex

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Salmond is the head of the Scottish Government. He is leading the

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campaign. It was his idea to have the referendum. Assuming we get a

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yes result in that referendum, he will have a mandate to lead the

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negotiations. He has made it perfectly clear that his preferred

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option is to have sterling within a currency union. Nobody can stop

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Scotland using sterling because it is an international tradable

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currency. The point is the desirability or otherwise of a

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currency union. They have a situation whereby Charles's party

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leader and the Tory Party leader, and low and behold the Labour Party

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leader are all saying we are not going to have this. It is complete

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nonsense. Cutting off their nose to spite their face. It is in

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everybody's interest to have a currency union. Even if you say that

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the businesses that have voiced some doubt about what they would do with

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some jobs and services, you say jobs would be lost but symbolically it is

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not exactly a vote of the buttons in the idea of an independent Scotland.

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-- vote of confidence. All of this has cast doubt on the economic case

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put by Alex Salmond that there is going to be jam and honey tomorrow.

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These are just some business people. The truth of the matter is that the

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business community in Scotland is divided. There are those who are

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very much in favour of a yes vote, those who are against, and some

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people say it won't make much difference. That Scotland will

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flourish within or without the union. Frankly there is a host of

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business spokespeople in Scotland, we have an organisation called

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business for Scotland, who are in favour of Scottish independence

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because they believe that what is holding Scotland back at present is

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this kind of dependency culture, and the financial straitjacket in which

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we are, whereas with independence, it would release a new

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entrepreneurial spirit within Scotland, we would see more business

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start-ups, we would see business flourishing and that would create

:14:54.:14:54.

more jobs in Scotland. Let me go to the opinion polls.

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Charles Kennedy, did the "no" campaign panic? Now we've had

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another opinion poll which has changed slightly in terms of who is

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ahead. Was there a panic? Have they offered too much to a potentially,

:15:14.:15:20.

if they vote "no", in terms of powers without knowing, and basing

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too much on one opinion poll? I don't think too much has been

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offered in terms of powers but you're talking to a federalist here.

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But did they panic? I don't think so. The way I would draw the analogy

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is this - if you are driving a car and you suddenly have to take

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unexpected action to avoid a collision you weren't anticipating

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and you do so calmly, professionally and no collision happens, you didn't

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panic but you changed the mode of your direction at very short notice.

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Now, when opinion polls started showing, it would be an insult to

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the intelligence of people in Scotland that it didn't have an

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effect on everybody campaigning in Scotland. We were neck and neck or

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possibly behind the stop if we had said we were sailing on regardless

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and not taking any avoidance of what might be an unfortunate mishap in

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front of us if we didn't do something, we would be accused of

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complacency and contempt. Let me ask Dennis Canavan, do you think the

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"yes" campaign has peaked too soon? We still have some days to campaign

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and now everything, including the kitchen sink, is being thrown at

:16:30.:16:33.

this campaign from the Better Together side. I don't think we've

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peaked too soon. There is still a week to go. We are neck and neck.

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When you look at the opinion polls not all that long ago, the other

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side were 20 points ahead, so we have got the moment on our side, we

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are closing the gap, we are going to work harder than ever to get every

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undecided vote in Scotland and we are confident that we will win a

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famous and historic victory a week today. Dennis Canavan and Charles

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Kennedy, thank you very much. Polly Toynbee, your analysis - who's going

:17:07.:17:12.

to win? We really don't know. As Dennis Canavan said, the momentum

:17:13.:17:17.

has been behind "yes". As you suggested, they might have peaked

:17:18.:17:21.

too soon. A lot of the heavyweight industries, the finance industry,

:17:22.:17:25.

didn't want to come out and have to declare their hand at all. They

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thought it would be dangerous, that they could lose business if they

:17:30.:17:32.

found themselves on the wrong side of the result. What happened is

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because of that one opinion poll that showed "yes" winning, it's

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brought them all out saying really quite fierce things. What Mark

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Carney said, what the banks have said about moving south - I think

:17:45.:17:50.

it's quite alarming and I imagine there are some waverers who will be

:17:51.:17:54.

swung. Thank you very much. Let's move on. A steady, relentless effort

:17:55.:18:00.

is what President Obama says is needed to root out the extremists of

:18:01.:18:04.

the so-called Islamic State who are operating in Iraq and Syria. In a

:18:05.:18:08.

speech last night, the American president outlined his new

:18:09.:18:11.

strategy, which includes extending the US led campaign of air into

:18:12.:18:16.

Syria. He said the US will lead a broad Coalition to defeat the

:18:17.:18:20.

terrorists, which could include British warplanes involved in air

:18:21.:18:22.

strikes. We will degrade and ultimately

:18:23.:18:24.

destroy ISIS through a sustained We will degrade and ultimately

:18:25.:18:31.

counterterrorism strategy. First, we will conduct a systematic campaign

:18:32.:18:35.

of air strikes against these terrorists. Working with the Iraqi

:18:36.:18:39.

government, we will expand our efforts beyond protecting our own

:18:40.:18:43.

people and him and Terry emissions, so that we're hitting ISIS targets

:18:44.:18:49.

as Iraqi forces go on offence. I've made it clear that we will hunt down

:18:50.:18:52.

terrorists who threaten our country, wherever they are. That means I will

:18:53.:18:56.

not hesitate to take action against ISIS in Syria as well as Iraq. A

:18:57.:19:02.

short while ago, I spoke to our correspondent Quentin Sommerville in

:19:03.:19:06.

Baghdad. I asked how the government there would respond to the speech by

:19:07.:19:10.

President Obama. This will be greatly welcomed and the Iraqi

:19:11.:19:14.

leadership, this new Iraqi unity government, at least on paper,

:19:15.:19:20.

welcomed Secretary of State John Kerry yesterday and he would have

:19:21.:19:22.

been given a full briefing. They have been making a very clear for

:19:23.:19:26.

quite some time that Iraq alone cannot handle the threat from the

:19:27.:19:31.

Islamic State but also the overspill of the conflict in Syria. They said

:19:32.:19:36.

the international community needs to provide them assistance. Iraq had to

:19:37.:19:43.

do its part and for many years now, the government here in Iraq has

:19:44.:19:48.

exploited sectarian and ethnic divisions and created a huge gap and

:19:49.:19:52.

in that gap the Islamic State spared in and exploited the divisions. A

:19:53.:19:57.

lot of repair has to be done to bring back this country and then

:19:58.:20:02.

Iraq can think about, with a larrikin help, tackling the threat

:20:03.:20:05.

of the Islamic State. -- American help. You said the unity government

:20:06.:20:11.

on paper. How much trust is there among Sunnis in Iraq that it will

:20:12.:20:16.

deliver that inclusive government? The proof of the pudding, really.

:20:17.:20:21.

They've got very little credit in the bank. When you look at this

:20:22.:20:27.

government, many of the faces seem familiar but when you actually

:20:28.:20:29.

travel on the ground in Iraq, say you go to northern Iraq in some of

:20:30.:20:33.

the areas where is the state are operating, we've been there, near

:20:34.:20:39.

Mosul, and speak to Christians, years Edie is, -- years Edies. You

:20:40.:20:49.

find they are fleeing for their lives and have very little trust in

:20:50.:20:52.

the Iraqi government to protect them, never mind defend them against

:20:53.:21:00.

IS. There is a long shopping list before people can actually feel safe

:21:01.:21:05.

in this country again. There is a big question - who is going to go in

:21:06.:21:07.

and liberate Mosul? Would be an Iraqi army made up of the Shia

:21:08.:21:12.

majority, going into liberate a Sunni people from the Islamic State?

:21:13.:21:19.

That doesn't have a lot of credibility and doesn't address the

:21:20.:21:26.

fears of the Iraqi people. Joining me now is the Conservative MP John

:21:27.:21:30.

Barron, who sits on the foreign affairs select committee, and Bayan

:21:31.:21:34.

Sami Rahman, the Kurdish regional government's high representative to

:21:35.:21:39.

the UK. John Barron, you support air strikes against IS in Iraq but not

:21:40.:21:43.

in Syria. What would be the point of that? The point is that the

:21:44.:21:47.

immediate objective is to drive IS out of Iraq. When I say I support

:21:48.:21:52.

them, I think there is room for regional players, friends and

:21:53.:21:56.

allies, to play a much more prominent role. So do you support

:21:57.:22:00.

British air strikes with the Americans in Iraq? I would first

:22:01.:22:04.

want to see and check cost as much as we could of our regional our

:22:05.:22:08.

regional our eyes. We've just seen the American allies. -- check we've

:22:09.:22:17.

asked as much as we could have our regional allies. In answer to your

:22:18.:22:22.

question about Syria, I think it takes it on to another level

:22:23.:22:26.

altogether. Of course we can agree with the broad strategy of President

:22:27.:22:30.

Obama, we've got to take on IS, but strikes in Syria risk Russian built

:22:31.:22:35.

or Russian supplied air defence systems. There are legal issues to

:22:36.:22:41.

address. But also, air strikes alone aren't going to defeat this

:22:42.:22:43.

well-organised guerrilla army and we don't know who will replace ISIS in

:22:44.:22:48.

Syria. Many extremists lurk in the shadows. Bayan Sami Rahman, is there

:22:49.:22:54.

any point in joining air strikes against IS in Iraq or parts of Iraq,

:22:55.:22:59.

without trying to defeat them in Syria? No, in my view you need to

:23:00.:23:03.

strike at ISIS at their nerve centre. They are very powerful in

:23:04.:23:10.

Syria. They have access to oil, access to wealth, and are able to

:23:11.:23:14.

cross the board are freely. So if we're only going to contain them in

:23:15.:23:19.

Iraq, that's containment. They will then stay in Syria, expand into

:23:20.:23:23.

Lebanon and Jordan. We need to strike at ISIS in the heart of where

:23:24.:23:28.

they are. What do you say to that? We got to balance what is desirable

:23:29.:23:32.

with what is achievable and given our errors in the past, whether it's

:23:33.:23:37.

going to war in Iraq on a false premise or the disastrous mission in

:23:38.:23:41.

Afghanistan or Libya, you got to approach this with caution. Our

:23:42.:23:45.

immediate objective is a responsibility to the Iraqi people,

:23:46.:23:49.

given our misguided intervention in 2003. We should focus on driving

:23:50.:23:55.

ISIS out of northern Iraq. Local forces, regional forces - including

:23:56.:23:59.

the 250,000 strong Iraqi army - should conduct that campaign. The

:24:00.:24:03.

air strikes in Syria take it on to another level of risk and danger

:24:04.:24:08.

which we should be very rare -- wary about. There was a lot of cautious

:24:09.:24:13.

feeling among the public here and quite a lot of MPs for the reasons

:24:14.:24:17.

John Barron has outlined. Do use of the pies with that to a certain

:24:18.:24:21.

extent, why there is some reluctance before going headlong into another

:24:22.:24:24.

conflict? Of course I do understand that. I've been a representative of

:24:25.:24:29.

the Kurdistan Regional Government since 2005, so I've seen all of the

:24:30.:24:35.

debate internally about Tony Blair being a liar, George Bush being a

:24:36.:24:39.

warmonger, but the fact is - and what I believe politicians in the

:24:40.:24:44.

West generally, including the UK, failed to do - is they've failed to

:24:45.:24:48.

explain to the public that nonintervention also has a cross.

:24:49.:24:52.

Nonintervention in Syria early on has let ISIS to grow and has led to

:24:53.:24:56.

a spill-over of the conflict in Iraq. We in Iraq are paying the

:24:57.:25:00.

price for nine to mention in Syria when the time was right. Does the

:25:01.:25:04.

Labour Party have a responsibility in that? It decided, and Ed

:25:05.:25:10.

Miliband, not to back any potential action against Bashar Al-Assad, and

:25:11.:25:13.

it has led to what we are facing now? I don't think the Labour Party

:25:14.:25:17.

or the other MPs in the Commons who voted against it, considerable

:25:18.:25:21.

numbers of Conservatives and Lib Dems to, have any sense of regret. I

:25:22.:25:26.

think there is a very keen awareness, born of painful

:25:27.:25:31.

experience in Iraq, but you need really good military advice, as John

:25:32.:25:35.

was suggesting, that says attacking them by air will make a difference

:25:36.:25:39.

and there really is no evidence of that. What happens if you do big

:25:40.:25:43.

bombing raids is that you had a lot of civilians, and you change the

:25:44.:25:50.

politics in the area. Western intervention is very, very

:25:51.:25:55.

dangerous. Unless you know you can absolutely do what it is you're

:25:56.:26:00.

going to achieve... There is evidence IS has been pushed back. We

:26:01.:26:04.

had evidence from the Kurds but also other groups in Iraq. We know that

:26:05.:26:12.

the bombings have pushed them back and, arguably, these dreadful

:26:13.:26:15.

beheadings that we have seen are as a result of panic, if you like, on

:26:16.:26:21.

the side of IS. Yes, there's no doubt about it - the air strikes

:26:22.:26:24.

have had the effect of checking IS and driving them back a bit,

:26:25.:26:28.

perhaps. That is to be welcome. What many of us in the House of Commons

:26:29.:26:31.

are saying is that we've got to restrict our activities to Iraq and

:26:32.:26:36.

accept the fact that you cannot defeat a well-organised guerrilla

:26:37.:26:40.

army such as ISIS by air strikes alone. This is not a disparate group

:26:41.:26:44.

of terrorists living in caves. This is well organised and well funded

:26:45.:26:47.

and we've got to realise the limitations of our power. ISIS is

:26:48.:26:51.

strong in northern Iraq not because we didn't intervene in Syria.

:26:52.:26:56.

Really? If we had intervened in Syria, we would have been siding,

:26:57.:27:00.

unintentionally, with many of the terrorists we're now taking on in

:27:01.:27:05.

northern Iraq. What led to ISIS making such ground was the sectarian

:27:06.:27:08.

politics of the premieres premise of Iraq. -- previous. Doesn't that make

:27:09.:27:15.

it now nigh on impossible for a British Government? We've had a

:27:16.:27:20.

Labour MP saying we may need site with Bashar al-Assad to defeat IS,

:27:21.:27:23.

not that that is the Labour Party's position. But if you go in and bomb

:27:24.:27:28.

IS, there are other Sunni militants who could come to the fall. It's a

:27:29.:27:34.

minefield. It is, and the world is accommodated place. I'm sorry but

:27:35.:27:36.

the British public have to accept that the world isn't a clean place

:27:37.:27:42.

and the good guys in the white hats defeat the Cowboys and the white --

:27:43.:27:50.

blackouts. There is a Shia-Sunni conflict. The Western world does

:27:51.:27:55.

have a role to play. You cannot run the world based on values alone. You

:27:56.:27:59.

need to lead militarily to stop when I talk about intervention in Syria

:28:00.:28:05.

I'm talking about the early days, not when the whole thing came out of

:28:06.:28:11.

control. We're not talking just about air strikes, we're talking

:28:12.:28:16.

right now in Iraq. We have Iraqi and Kurdish Peshmerga fighting on the

:28:17.:28:21.

ground, supported by air strikes. We push them to the border

:28:22.:28:24.

ground, supported by air strikes. We they will come back. They need to be

:28:25.:28:28.

demoralised in Syria as well. What about arming the Peshmerga? Should

:28:29.:28:32.

we have done that much earlier? We saw reports from the border saying,

:28:33.:28:39.

"we need arms now. We cannot halt IS unless we have a lot more

:28:40.:28:43.

ammunition". What we can agree is that there are no easy answers.

:28:44.:28:47.

Arming the Peshmerga, fine, but what you are doing is taking a step

:28:48.:28:51.

closer to the old regional fault lines and Iraq breaking up into its

:28:52.:28:55.

three constituent parts. You got to recognise that there are downsides

:28:56.:28:57.

to each of these policies but what we've got to learn from past

:28:58.:29:04.

interventions is that we have intervened and, actually, I would

:29:05.:29:10.

argue - whether it is Iraq all the mission in Afghanistan, or even

:29:11.:29:13.

Libya, where the Libyan parliament is now taking refuge in a Greek

:29:14.:29:16.

ferry - we have not made things better. We have got to be more

:29:17.:29:21.

balanced and nuanced and are approaching when it comes to ISIS,

:29:22.:29:25.

yes, play an active role in driving them out of northern Iraq but it has

:29:26.:29:28.

to be local forces on the ground doing that. Be very wary of going

:29:29.:29:33.

into Syria, if only because it would represent a complete U-turn on our

:29:34.:29:37.

policy last year. John Barron and Bayan Sami Rahman, thank you very

:29:38.:29:40.

much. Louise Casey, the former victims

:29:41.:29:45.

commissioner, has been appointed to conduct an independent inspection

:29:46.:29:47.

into children's services at Rotherham Council. She'll also look

:29:48.:29:51.

at what wider lessons can be learned about child protection, following

:29:52.:29:55.

the revelation that 1400 children were abused in the borough between

:29:56.:30:00.

1997 and 2013, mainly by gangs of men of Pakistani heritage. Police

:30:01.:30:05.

and council officials appeared in front of select committees over the

:30:06.:30:08.

last couple of days, accused of failing to act to stop the abuse

:30:09.:30:09.

despite numerous warnings. This is not something I would have

:30:10.:30:17.

turned a blind eye to, nor something I would have wilfully ignored. With

:30:18.:30:21.

respect to the evidence you have been given, those who know me

:30:22.:30:25.

personally know I would not turn a blind eye cover up incidents of

:30:26.:30:29.

child grooming. I take no pleasure from this. I have had a 32 year

:30:30.:30:34.

police career, and yet on this issue, I have singularly failed the

:30:35.:30:40.

victims of these criminals. And it hurts, bearing

:30:41.:30:46.

Bearing in mind you were the deputy head of children's services from

:30:47.:30:55.

children's -- from 2006, you have known about this all along, you are

:30:56.:30:59.

one of the threads in respect of what has been happening. Why are you

:31:00.:31:05.

still in post? I am not stepping aside for the simple reason I remain

:31:06.:31:09.

accountable to the children, people and families of Rotherham. I take

:31:10.:31:13.

personal responsible to for every incident of child abuse and I worked

:31:14.:31:20.

tirelessly with my staff. I take my responsible at his very seriously

:31:21.:31:26.

and I do not intend to resign... Some very significant, tragic

:31:27.:31:29.

failings within the Council. The reason we are here is because of the

:31:30.:31:36.

victims. Those people, before the select committee. With me are former

:31:37.:31:40.

MP and Cryer, who raise concerns about the grooming of teenage girls

:31:41.:31:46.

by Asian men in her constituency in Keighley as early as 2002, and Susan

:31:47.:31:58.

Evans, deputy chairman of UKIP. Ann Cryer, you raise this issue ten

:31:59.:32:03.

years ago, what was the response? It was 12 years ago, actually. The

:32:04.:32:07.

lease and social services's response was minimal -- police and social

:32:08.:32:12.

services. I got on board Justin Rowlatt, who now works for the BBC,

:32:13.:32:17.

and he made a short film about the mothers who had come to see me,

:32:18.:32:21.

reporting the abuse of their very young daughters. 12 or 13-year-olds.

:32:22.:32:25.

That film that just didn't make it the trick, it got West Yorkshire

:32:26.:32:31.

Police and Bradford social services on board and after a further two

:32:32.:32:35.

years, it did take a while, I think five of the men were sent down. I do

:32:36.:32:41.

remember you trying to raise these issues at the time. What do you

:32:42.:32:45.

think actually motivated the inaction, if you like, I social

:32:46.:32:49.

services and council and police, at the time? It is what has been said

:32:50.:32:57.

about Rotherham. People who are not racist are generally afraid of being

:32:58.:33:01.

called racist, that is the truth of the matter. I hated it because I

:33:02.:33:05.

knew that the Pakistani community in Keighley at the time would probably

:33:06.:33:10.

because me a racist. I have no evidence of that but I dare say that

:33:11.:33:13.

is what happened. And of course it is terrible. If you genuinely

:33:14.:33:23.

believe in a fair deal for everyone in your constituency, and you do

:33:24.:33:26.

your best for them, it is awful to think you're going to be as a

:33:27.:33:32.

racist, simply because you raised the issue of girls being abused in

:33:33.:33:38.

this way. It is shocking and that is what has been raised, the idea that

:33:39.:33:42.

people could be labelled for merely bringing up, and what has proven to

:33:43.:33:46.

be true in many cases, the fact that they were men of mainly Pakistani

:33:47.:33:50.

heritage involved in this abuse. Absolutely. Ann Cryer has been

:33:51.:33:54.

exceptionally brave all along and whole lot of these issues, she has

:33:55.:33:58.

been unafraid and had a lot of trouble as a result and I think she

:33:59.:34:02.

is magnificent. One of the problems is that the number of rotten

:34:03.:34:06.

boroughs that there are, where politicians collude with so-called

:34:07.:34:09.

leaders of ethnic communities, who are not really leaders at all, they

:34:10.:34:13.

are not leaders of large parts of it, but they can deliver votes, or

:34:14.:34:17.

they think they can deliver votes. That is partly because we don't have

:34:18.:34:21.

a proportional representative system which breaks up some of these solid

:34:22.:34:26.

locks, in this case Labour, in some places Tory -- solid blocks. Does it

:34:27.:34:34.

come down to political correct this? Actually stopping people being able

:34:35.:34:38.

to do their jobs? Was that the reason in Rotherham that people

:34:39.:34:43.

didn't want to dig any deeper? We have heard from Denis McShane, the

:34:44.:34:47.

former MP, saying I was a left leading Guardian reader, it wasn't

:34:48.:34:50.

the sort of thing we looked into, that political correctness was to

:34:51.:34:54.

blame? I think partly but it was very much these deals with so-called

:34:55.:34:58.

leaders. The leaders wouldn't allow any slur on anything that was going

:34:59.:35:02.

on in their community and Labour backed off. I'll say think there is

:35:03.:35:07.

a lot of political incorrectness. How these goals were treated was

:35:08.:35:10.

extraordinarily sexist and classist. -- these girls. These are rubbish

:35:11.:35:18.

girls, in care, wild and reckless, there was no idea that these are

:35:19.:35:21.

children in our care and perfection. That seems to be the most important

:35:22.:35:25.

thing, the way these girls were utterly despised, both by their

:35:26.:35:29.

abusers but also by the authorities. I am delighted that Holly has

:35:30.:35:34.

brought up this issue of sexism and class, because I think that is

:35:35.:35:40.

right. -- Polly. We try to label it as being entirely to blame at our

:35:41.:35:44.

peril, there were other issues as well and Polly has accurately picked

:35:45.:35:48.

up on one of them. There are issues about the night-time economy. I

:35:49.:35:51.

personally feel there are issues around what Michael the anaesthetise

:35:52.:35:57.

agents of economy -- the -- around what I call. People see such cases

:35:58.:35:59.

time and again that what I call. People see such cases

:36:00.:36:12.

red flag flying. An MEP has made this quite clear, they need to stand

:36:13.:36:19.

up and make them accountable. These so-called community leaders are not

:36:20.:36:22.

democratically elected, they are put there... Nobody should accept... We

:36:23.:36:31.

have just heard from the council director of children's services

:36:32.:36:34.

saying she is not going to resign, yet she was there throughout this

:36:35.:36:39.

period and the Ford ever -- throughout this whole period and for

:36:40.:36:47.

whatever reason it was not recognised. It is also political

:36:48.:36:56.

protectionism of your own people and own voters. As the left fostered

:36:57.:37:02.

that? I don't know about the left, they are an old-fashioned corrupt

:37:03.:37:06.

our working council, you can find the same in Tory councils that have

:37:07.:37:12.

been Tory for ever as well. You have a solid block of old-fashioned power

:37:13.:37:16.

that refuses to look at what is happening. But the left has

:37:17.:37:20.

relentlessly pursued the ethnic vote and I think that is the cause of the

:37:21.:37:25.

problem. I think you will find David Cameron is pursuing the ethnic vote

:37:26.:37:28.

as well. You are probably the only ones who aren't. Do you think there

:37:29.:37:34.

was that sort of atmosphere at the time, in your area and rather, too,

:37:35.:37:39.

and it was the fear of being labelled a racist? There may be an

:37:40.:37:42.

omen of a rotten borough but did that prevent issues coming to the

:37:43.:37:48.

four? When I was elected first, the leader of the council said, I will

:37:49.:37:52.

consult the Camino to. What he meant by that, and it nearly always was

:37:53.:37:57.

that, he will pick up the phone and phone perhaps five men -- consult

:37:58.:38:02.

the community. The women would have no say whatsoever. He would bring

:38:03.:38:06.

those five men ask them their views, and then he had consulted the

:38:07.:38:10.

community, in his view. It was wrong. We have moved on a bid from

:38:11.:38:15.

then. We have about eight or nine women councillors of Asian Heritage,

:38:16.:38:22.

which is terrific. After the next election we may have an Asian woman

:38:23.:38:28.

MP, which would be great, in Bradford. We are moving on but this

:38:29.:38:38.

particular community in Bradford and Keighley are extremely

:38:39.:38:40.

paternalistic. We have to grasp that nettle and argue and make sure it is

:38:41.:38:46.

understood that it is not the way of politics in Bradford and Keighley,

:38:47.:38:49.

and things must change, and I think they are changing. Let me bring up

:38:50.:38:56.

another example. In November 2012 Rotherham council removed three

:38:57.:38:58.

children from foster parents because they were members of UKIP. I mention

:38:59.:39:04.

the director of children's services who told the BBC at the time, her

:39:05.:39:08.

decision was influenced by UKIP aberratio

:39:09.:39:12.

-- influenced by UKIP's policy. If these were children of ethnic

:39:13.:39:27.

minorities... I think they it is a bit different. I don't see why. They

:39:28.:39:33.

are either good foster parents or they are not. What matters is

:39:34.:39:37.

whether or not you are a good parent. I all accounts these foster

:39:38.:39:42.

parents work and I gather they are being foster parents again, although

:39:43.:39:46.

I think in a different borough. I don't know the case but if it were a

:39:47.:39:52.

case of foster parents who had any instinctive sense against particular

:39:53.:39:55.

foreigners, I would think it not a good idea to put foreign children

:39:56.:40:00.

with them. UKIP doesn't have anything against Eastern Europeans,

:40:01.:40:03.

this is the problem, it has been so misrepresented. Except you go into

:40:04.:40:09.

areas where there is strong Eastern European... We are against mass

:40:10.:40:15.

immigration. , we're not against anyone from eastern Europe and we

:40:16.:40:22.

have been misrepresented on that. In East Anglia you are really targeting

:40:23.:40:31.

people who are not Eastern European? We talked about when they were

:40:32.:40:35.

joining the European Union, how they would be an open door, it could have

:40:36.:40:39.

been any other two countries. You sound so reasonable but you are so

:40:40.:40:43.

unlike the leaflets that you and your party are putting up. Thank you

:40:44.:40:49.

very much. Pay attention, you lot, because I am

:40:50.:40:53.

not repeating myself. Politics has got angry and it is your fault.

:40:54.:40:57.

Sorry about the tone but you see my point. As our guest of the day knows

:40:58.:41:02.

well, some people can take an aggressive dislike to people who

:41:03.:41:05.

inhabit the political landscape or write about it. It is us, the

:41:06.:41:10.

public, or have politicians got to wound up and has the advent of

:41:11.:41:14.

social media meant we can vent spleen whenever we like?

:41:15.:41:20.

The world of politics is not just populated by politicians but a press

:41:21.:41:24.

that provides opinion formers and commentators. They are often

:41:25.:41:29.

strident and dogmatic in their views, as are their counterparts,

:41:30.:41:36.

but how often have you seen or had this reaction? That person is so

:41:37.:41:40.

annoying, they are wrong about pretty much everything, I actually

:41:41.:41:44.

think I hate them! I might even tell them that. And now with Twitter and

:41:45.:41:52.

Facebook and links to the comments section of newspapers and

:41:53.:41:54.

politicians who willingly use social media, we can, and we do tell people

:41:55.:41:59.

in no uncertain terms what we think of them. By and large you are

:42:00.:42:04.

talking about people who are older, they are male, they are right wing,

:42:05.:42:11.

they have a sense that everything is somehow getting away from them, that

:42:12.:42:16.

people who have no right our user pin power and so on. Essentially

:42:17.:42:22.

they are people who feel their potency slipping away and look for

:42:23.:42:23.

somebody to blame -- they are You cover both sections, from the

:42:24.:42:37.

left, who really dislike cute was that no matter what you say, if you

:42:38.:42:43.

said free beer for the world of workers, they would say, I hate you!

:42:44.:42:49.

Hold on, chaps, because it is mainly chaps. It is not just us but our

:42:50.:42:55.

politics can get sharp at times. How about this, you are the weakest

:42:56.:43:04.

link, goodbye? Mr Speaker... The house has noticed the Prime

:43:05.:43:07.

Minister's remarkable transformation in the last few weeks from Stalin to

:43:08.:43:18.

Mr Bean. You are a miserable pipsqueak of a man! When it gets

:43:19.:43:25.

rowdy, the speaker is clear he thinks we do like it and want it

:43:26.:43:30.

calmer and more reasonable. Order. That is what the public has a right

:43:31.:43:34.

to expect of this house. We pretend we don't like bust ups, we think it

:43:35.:43:39.

is bad, badly behaved, then we all watch it and we send each other

:43:40.:43:46.

tweets about it. The vile sickos who populate Twitter, there is no green

:43:47.:43:52.

ink defining them any more. It is the same typeface, whether you are

:43:53.:43:58.

David Cameron or you are some revolting piece of work conducting

:43:59.:44:04.

some vile vendetta. It is a fascinating subject and I would love

:44:05.:44:08.

to tell you more, but frankly, you can all bog off. Charming! Joining

:44:09.:44:18.

the psychologist Lucy Beresford. Polly, does it bother you, the

:44:19.:44:21.

response that you get in response to your columns?

:44:22.:44:25.

It does from time to time and it does, to some extent, altar what I

:44:26.:44:33.

write. I'm very, very much more careful to not write anything

:44:34.:44:36.

remotely personal, not to give away anything, that could allow them to

:44:37.:44:40.

get that screwdriver in. When I read the comments after my column, are

:44:41.:44:44.

lot of them are the same ones week after week. They are very often

:44:45.:44:48.

absolutely vile. We have a moderator who takes out anything really

:44:49.:44:53.

obscene or a threat to your life. I have had ones that have been threats

:44:54.:44:58.

to my life. "Hope you get cancer," that kind of thing. Very nice. It is

:44:59.:45:04.

upsetting and disturbing. The level of vitriol is kind of

:45:05.:45:08.

incomprehensible. I don't, on the whole, right vitriolic or personal

:45:09.:45:12.

stuff about people. I have, about three times in my life, written

:45:13.:45:19.

really savage things about Peter Mandelson, Boris Johnson and another

:45:20.:45:25.

person. Otherwise, I am genuinely not trying to stir things up. What

:45:26.:45:30.

does that say about the state of human nature, if people are writing

:45:31.:45:33.

that sort of savagery to be blight Polly Toynbee on a fairly regular

:45:34.:45:38.

basis? There are two things. One is about the nature of politics, which

:45:39.:45:41.

is generally quite impassioned, and the other is the nature of social

:45:42.:45:46.

media at the moment, which almost excites and impulsivity. If I wanted

:45:47.:45:51.

to send a letter in green ink, by the time I got my 17th page, I might

:45:52.:45:57.

have got it off my chest. But now it takes me no time at all to tweet.

:45:58.:46:00.

I've pressed the button before I've censored myself, doing the normal

:46:01.:46:08.

human thing. But politics is about passion and it's also about our

:46:09.:46:11.

sense of self. We hold beliefs about things and it's those beliefs that

:46:12.:46:15.

make us feel connected and grounded to the world and if someone

:46:16.:46:18.

challenges those beliefs, we're going to defend ourselves. Do you

:46:19.:46:23.

think it is the immediacy of the response, the initial anger before

:46:24.:46:29.

it had time to diminish, which means politics is actually ideological D

:46:30.:46:32.

split that it was in the 1980s and 1990s. -- ideological. I think this

:46:33.:46:43.

government was doing things well to the right of anything Margaret

:46:44.:46:46.

Thatcher ever dared do so I think there is, underneath it, a very

:46:47.:46:51.

strong right-wing ideological string anything to do with the state...

:46:52.:46:58.

They do it to some extent to people on the left but I think people on

:46:59.:47:02.

the left are less interested in spending their time on the Daily

:47:03.:47:07.

Mail site than those to the right plunging into the Guardian. If you

:47:08.:47:11.

weren't allowed to be anonymous and people knew that their families,

:47:12.:47:17.

their brothers and sisters, their work colleagues, could see what they

:47:18.:47:21.

are saying, it would calm the whole thing down. I would like an end to

:47:22.:47:26.

anonymity. Do you think that is the problem, people feel masked by

:47:27.:47:31.

social media, e-mails, Twitter, so they can say things they don't

:47:32.:47:35.

really believe the person will ever read? They certainly have the

:47:36.:47:38.

wherewithal to be anonymous and some people have to be anonymous and some

:47:39.:47:42.

people have Twitter encourage a certain licentiousness but, at the

:47:43.:47:46.

same time, there are a lot of people who want to stand out and proud and

:47:47.:47:51.

say, "I am going to be a really nasty person". We have to leave it

:47:52.:47:54.

there before it gets nasty. Thank you very much.

:47:55.:47:59.

We know that the continuing saga over who should be the next Commons

:48:00.:48:02.

clerk has been keeping you awake at night. Not familiar with the story?

:48:03.:48:07.

Well, and Astrium called Carol Mills is the preferred candidate of the

:48:08.:48:11.

Commons Speaker John Bercow for the role of clerk of the House of

:48:12.:48:14.

Commons. The Clarke Access Chief Executive of the Commons but they

:48:15.:48:19.

are also the person who advises MPs on procedure. But a growing number

:48:20.:48:22.

of MPs are unhappy with the choice. They're concerned that Ms Mills

:48:23.:48:28.

lacks the necessary Parliamentary knowledge to carry out the role.

:48:29.:48:32.

Last night, Conservative MP Andrew Lansley, who sat on the panel that

:48:33.:48:36.

interviewed her for the job, admit they might have chosen the wrong

:48:37.:48:40.

person. It is no criticism of Carol Mills, who interviewed well, to say

:48:41.:48:44.

that her knowledge of the constitutional procedural issues, as

:48:45.:48:46.

required for clerk of the House, would not suffice. I took that view

:48:47.:48:51.

but it is not supported by the majority of the selection panel. It

:48:52.:48:55.

is particularly regrettable that the speakers sought expressly to water

:48:56.:48:59.

down the 2011 requirement in the job description that the clerk should

:49:00.:49:02.

have "detailed knowledge of the procedures and practices of the

:49:03.:49:09.

House". He sought to replace the words "detailed knowledge" with

:49:10.:49:13.

"awareness". I have to say the selection panel was not asked to

:49:14.:49:19.

subject candidates to the same test as in 2011. The process for

:49:20.:49:23.

appointment there was, in my view, it ill founded. Jesse Norman, the MP

:49:24.:49:29.

who called for last by's debate over the choice of Commons clerk, joins

:49:30.:49:34.

us from Westminster. This isn't about respective traditions of

:49:35.:49:37.

Parliament, is it? It another way of putting the boot into John Bercow

:49:38.:49:40.

because you don't like him. Nothing could be further from the truth.

:49:41.:49:44.

There was a flawed procedure to choose the new clerk and there were

:49:45.:49:49.

questions, as Andrew Lansley mentioned, and are widely

:49:50.:49:53.

acknowledged, about whether she has any genuine qualifications for the

:49:54.:49:56.

procedural and constitutional aspects of the job. We know that

:49:57.:50:02.

she's had two enquiries launched into her conduct by the Australian

:50:03.:50:07.

Parliament where she works and this was about clearing all that up and

:50:08.:50:11.

putting the selection process and, indeed, the governance of the House,

:50:12.:50:15.

on a proper constitutional basis. Stick a white we take your point

:50:16.:50:19.

about the enquiries going on but she is a secretary for the department of

:50:20.:50:22.

Parliamentary services and the biggest item coming up the clerk's

:50:23.:50:27.

agenda is multi-million pound refurbishment of the Palace of

:50:28.:50:29.

Westminster, which won't need an intimate knowledge of Parliamentary

:50:30.:50:34.

protocol, will it? It's true that the business side

:50:35.:50:37.

will be important and that's why the wiser heads in the Palace of

:50:38.:50:40.

Westminster are going to set up a specific delivery authority to

:50:41.:50:44.

commission this enormous piece of change and renewed infrastructure.

:50:45.:50:49.

But if you think about what's really at stake, the question is, can

:50:50.:50:53.

Parliament reinvent itself for the 21st century through this renewal

:50:54.:50:57.

and restoration process? That requires a detailed understanding of

:50:58.:51:03.

how Parliament works in Britain and this specific institutions and stop

:51:04.:51:06.

it is the clerk's understanding and expertise that will really be in

:51:07.:51:12.

play. We've done quite a few interviews on this in the last

:51:13.:51:16.

couple of weeks since has returned. Is this really what MPs should be

:51:17.:51:20.

spending their time on? There's a way of looking at it which says that

:51:21.:51:25.

this is just petty nonsense and we should pay our attention to

:51:26.:51:28.

international affairs and I don't disagree with much of that. The

:51:29.:51:33.

question, however, is what the rules are under which Parliament itself

:51:34.:51:36.

operates and Parliament is our supreme legislative body so, add

:51:37.:51:40.

chilli, the question of who the clerk is is a profound matter for

:51:41.:51:44.

the constitution and proper governance. -- actually. Other

:51:45.:51:50.

governments across the Commonwealth rely on our clerk for advice on how

:51:51.:51:53.

to run their Parliament so it turns out to run their Parliament so it

:51:54.:51:58.

turns out how to get right. But isn't there some truth in what David

:51:59.:52:02.

Blunkett says, which is that MPs wouldn't put up with how the House

:52:03.:52:05.

of Commons were run if it were a business and that, to some extent,

:52:06.:52:09.

echoes the electorate, you are switching of Parliamentary protocol

:52:10.:52:12.

because it's compensated and outdated? That isn't a reason to not

:52:13.:52:19.

care about Parliamentary protocol. It may be that in the Twitter age,

:52:20.:52:24.

people just generally don't have the time to invest in these issues,

:52:25.:52:27.

although frankly they know more about them now than they probably

:52:28.:52:31.

have ever done in our history. David Blunkett was right in our history.

:52:32.:52:34.

David Blunkett was writing part. 20 years ago, the House of Commons with

:52:35.:52:41.

an ability to mess. It's now much better. -- and administrators at

:52:42.:52:48.

mess. It can still continue to improve and that's part of the

:52:49.:52:51.

argument that we'll be engaging with with this new select committee. All

:52:52.:52:55.

right, Jesse Norman. No doubt we will do revisit this. Amongst

:52:56.:53:03.

political journalists of a certain vintage, this Scottish referendum

:53:04.:53:05.

campaign has conjured up a feeling of deja vu. Stop "yes" and Mobot for

:53:06.:53:12.

their French language counterpart and you could have a campaign in the

:53:13.:53:15.

Canadian province of Quebec in the 1990s. -- swap "yes" and "no". In

:53:16.:53:25.

Quebec they love voting on whether to leave Canada. They lasted it in

:53:26.:53:30.

1995 and there are some spooky parallels with what happened then

:53:31.:53:33.

and the final few days of the campaign in Scotland. Just ask

:53:34.:53:37.

somebody who was there. Watching this whole campaign has given me a

:53:38.:53:41.

strong sense of deja vu, having followed the Quebec referendum 20

:53:42.:53:45.

years ago. A hugely exciting, nail-biting campaign, but also

:53:46.:53:49.

bringing together these very big, emotional feelings.

:53:50.:53:55.

bringing together these very big, national identity, belonging.

:53:56.:54:00.

Exhibit A, the polls. In the early days, the Canadian "no" campaign was

:54:01.:54:05.

a head-butt them in the last minute the "yes" campaign took the lead.

:54:06.:54:09.

The same seems to have happened in Scotland this week. Better

:54:10.:54:13.

Together's response is out of the Quebec rule book. The Prime Minister

:54:14.:54:20.

of Canada said that Quebec would be recognised as a distinct nation with

:54:21.:54:25.

a constitutional veto. People said it was too late and if he really

:54:26.:54:29.

meant it they would have done it earlier. They said they wouldn't be

:54:30.:54:33.

fooled again, exactly as you are hearing now on the nationalist side.

:54:34.:54:39.

Then there was a move to say that we have been too negative on the "no"

:54:40.:54:42.

side and to pettifogging about the detail. We've got to be more open.

:54:43.:54:51.

Just like jamming street's decision to fly the salt are, although there

:54:52.:54:56.

are few tricks Number Ten might not borrow from Canada. David Cameron

:54:57.:55:06.

could have said that if a wrong-headed to King's Cross, he

:55:07.:55:12.

would pay for them to go to Edinburgh to campaign. But that is

:55:13.:55:16.

what happened in Canada. If you got a free ticket to go to Edinburgh to

:55:17.:55:21.

campaign for Scotland to stay in the UK, would you take it? Yes I would.

:55:22.:55:27.

Would you be tempted with a free ticket to go on campaign? I used to

:55:28.:55:33.

live there and I think it's a nice place but I think they cost us too

:55:34.:55:37.

much money and if they want to go, they can go. Is it one way or

:55:38.:55:43.

return? There is a big difference from Quebec. We know the result. The

:55:44.:55:48.

answer was "no" but only just. We're joined by a representative of

:55:49.:55:55.

the Canadian broadcaster CBC. I love the idea that the government paid

:55:56.:55:58.

for people to go to Quebec to beg them to stay. That obvious he

:55:59.:56:04.

worked. It depends who you speak with. The fact is that about 100,000

:56:05.:56:08.

Canadians ended up in Montreal. I was there as a student journalist

:56:09.:56:13.

and was quite a scene, certainly not won the separatists were

:56:14.:56:17.

appreciative of but one that the Federalists credited with that very

:56:18.:56:22.

small surge ahead for the "no" side. What lessons do you think thereafter

:56:23.:56:28.

Scotland in this campaign? It's amazing the similarities, despite

:56:29.:56:32.

the fact that the campaign is so starkly shorter on the Canadian

:56:33.:56:38.

side. It's gone on for ever hear! Despite that, the arc of it has been

:56:39.:56:43.

similar. The surge of the "no" side all along and then suddenly the

:56:44.:56:47.

dramatic surge of the "yes" side. In Canada, there was the love bombing

:56:48.:56:52.

that happened and here, that seems to be happening. It does sound very

:56:53.:56:57.

familiar. The separatists were not very happy about it in Canada. I was

:56:58.:57:01.

told it isn't the kind of approach they like to see in Scotland. What

:57:02.:57:07.

do you say to that? What about a month long campaign? Would that have

:57:08.:57:11.

been better for the "no" side or the "yes" side? What's really

:57:12.:57:17.

interesting about the Quebec question is that they then one such

:57:18.:57:25.

strong concessions as a result of nearly winning that it was all a

:57:26.:57:27.

problem. There really does appear now to be very little push for

:57:28.:57:34.

another referendum any longer. The young in Quebec seem to be 70% in

:57:35.:57:39.

favour of not breaking away, so it sounds as if it's done the trick and

:57:40.:57:44.

maybe what the "no" side is offering now would do the trick in Scotland

:57:45.:57:47.

as well and resolve the question by giving enough. Do you agree with

:57:48.:57:58.

that, and does it end the debate? In Canada the separatist movement still

:57:59.:58:01.

exists and is watching this mode very closely, just as Catalonia is,

:58:02.:58:06.

and Venice, because it could be instructive. Some associations in

:58:07.:58:09.

Montreal have planned meetings will shortly after the vote to talk about

:58:10.:58:12.

what affect this vote might have on the future, the next possible

:58:13.:58:21.

referendum. The party that led and hopes to go for another vote still

:58:22.:58:26.

has a broad base of popularity. Was it a dirty campaign? In Canada?

:58:27.:58:31.

Depends who you talk to! We'll end it there. Thank you for joining us

:58:32.:58:39.

today. That's it. Thanks to all of our guests but particularly to you,

:58:40.:58:43.

Polly Toynbee, for bearing with us for the whole hour. The news is

:58:44.:58:47.

starting on BBC one now. Andrew will be in Edinburgh tonight and

:58:48.:58:52.

tomorrow, I will be here in London and Andrew still in Edinburgh for

:58:53.:58:58.

politics Musgrove. -- for the Daily Politics.

:58:59.:59:09.

Now. This. Looks. Like. A job. For me.

:59:10.:59:19.

Jo Coburn is joined by journalist Polly Toynbee to discuss the latest political news, including reaction in Westminster to Barack Obama's announcement of airstrikes against Islamic State in Iraq and Syria.


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