10/09/2014 Daily Politics


10/09/2014

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn with live coverage of PMQs and the latest on the Scottish referendum. With Wales secretary Stephen Crabb and shadow housing minister Emma Reynolds.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning folks, and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Just eight days to go until the people of Scotland decide whether or

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The fate of the 300-year-old union hangs in the balance,

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with polls suggesting the Yes and No campaigns are neck-and-neck.

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The Prime Minister makes an impassioned plea for Scots to

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He's cancelled his normal question time appearance,

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along with the other main party leaders, to head north to Scotland.

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Alex Salmond says the No campaign is falling apart at the seams.

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But with fresh warnings from the Governor of the Bank

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of England, and as investors continue to take fright, can the Yes

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With Messrs Cameron and Miliband off to Scotland, it'll be Hague

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We'll have all the action and expert analysis live at midday.

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And the journalist Alice Thomson says it's time to end the culture

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of politicians wining and dining with big donors.

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The Queen costs each taxpayer 56 pence a year. In return, we don't

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have to worry, she is wining and dining people, for a stack of cash

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to keep the show on the road. That should be the example for all our

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All that in the next 90 minutes, and with us for the whole of the

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programme today, the new Secretary of State for Wales, Stephen Crabb,

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and the Shadow Housing Minister, Emma Reynolds. Welcome to you both.

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Now, it's Wednesday, and usually that means we'd be gearing up for

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our weekly bout of verbal pugilism between the Prime Minister and the

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Leader of the Opposition. But wait - what's that? They're not going to be

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there? Why? The referendum? Yes, that's right. Messrs Cameron and

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Miliband have agreed to suspend hostilities in order to campaign in

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Scotland. They've even taken Nick Clegg with them - probably to carry

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their bags. Actually, I jest. The leaders aren't travelling together,

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and they certainly won't be sharing any stages.Yes, the Prime Minister

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and they certainly won't be sharing any stages. Yes, the Prime Minister

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is doing a Q in Edinburgh this morning with voters, Nick Clegg will

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be visiting an energy company in Selkirk at lunchtime, and Ed

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Miliband will be making a speech this afternoon in Glasgow. A short

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while ago, I spoke to our political correspondent, Norman Smith, just

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before he went in to hear the Prime Minister speak.

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It is a huge gamble by the three main unionist parties but it

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reflects the fact that the polls have tightened, they know they have

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to step up the intensity of their campaign and they have to try and

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seize the initiative, which is why they have taken the decision to set

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aside Prime Minister's Questions and make the case for the union, we will

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see the tone of the campaign changing. There has been criticism

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too much has been focussed on the economy, sterling and now there is

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to be a conscious effort to make a more emotional case to the people of

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Scotland, to site family, to reframe the argument, but it is a huge, huge

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gamble. The gamble is this, that they come up here and are seen as

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the Westminster elite, coming up to Scotland, to lecture the Scots at

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the very last gasp of this referendum campaign, that is the

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narrative we have been hearing from Alex Salmond, who insists it is a

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last minute panic measure and it might backfire, because if you look

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at their ratings, north of the border, let us be candid, David

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Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg are not highly regarded here. They

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advertise the fact they are the Westminster party, and that

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reinforces Alex Salmond's case, that Scotland would be better governing

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itself. O so it is a big risk and a big move by the three main party

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leaders. Norman Smith there let us pick up on

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that point. Aren't you playing into Alex Salmond's hands? He has said he

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will pay for the bus fares for all of them to travel up. Not at all. We

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knew the last days of the campaign would feel very intense indeed. We

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knew that the polls were tightening. You didn't think they would be this

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tight, did you? That is is right for the party leaders to make a stand,

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to go to Scotland and say this matters. Tell people of Scotland how

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much we want them to stick with the family, stick with the family of

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nations. You look cynical at this point, why wasn't it done before? It

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is only because the polls have shown one or two of them that they are

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tied the or the yes campaign is slightly ahead, that there is what

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looks like a desperate attempt to make appeal to Scottish voters?

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David Cameron has been going back and forward to Scotland since he

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became Prime Minister, speaking from his head and heart about why he

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wants Scotland to stick with the family of nations that is the United

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Kingdom. He isn't popular in Scotland, so could it make it worse?

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. I don't believe it will make it worse, I think it is a really

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important step that the party leaders take, today, it is not

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uncommon for the Prime Minister to miss PMQs for extraordinary

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occasion, this is an extraordinary momentous moment nor the United

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Kingdom. What difference is Ed Miliband going to make, bear in mind

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they have had to ask Gordon Brown, a previous Labour Prime Minister to

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step in to save the union? It is right that the three party leaders

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are up in Scotland. We expected all along the polls would narrow. One

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poll suggested that 20% of people have not made up their minds, so it

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is right that politicians across the political spectrum are there and

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Gordon Brown, a towering figure in British politics and Scottish

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politics has been involved in the campaign for quite some time, and

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again, it is unsurprising that he has started to come Pape more

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intensely in the last couple of weeks. Looking now, xue excuse me,

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Stephen crab, do you think there should have been another question on

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the ballot paper, that promised more powers to Scotland, in the event of

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a no vote? No, the decision that the people Scott land are taking is a

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complicated one, a difficult one. Having a choice between independence

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or remaining part of the UK... Was that the wrong decision? Would we be

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in this situation if there had been another choice on the ballot paper?

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It is difficult presented with that. There is a strong appetite within

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Scotland for more decision making to be taken within the boundaries of

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Scotland, the parties at Westminster are united in saying we are going to

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meet that appetite. But it is right for the people Scott land to make

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this decision whether they want to stick with the United Kingdom, stick

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with the family of nations or to go it alone as independents. Let us

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One of the things Mr Cameron et al will be talking about

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while they're north of the border will be more devolution as

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Yesterday, the leaders of the Scottish

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Conservatives, Labour and Liberal Democrats stood on a joint platform

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to offer the Scots further powers if they vote No next Thursday.

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They hope this will be enough to dissuade people from voting

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The Yes Campaign says it's just a last minute panicky bribe.

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Stewart Hosie is deputy leader of the SNP group in Westminster, and

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Given all the uncertainties that are associated with independence, would

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it not be better to keep the certainty of the union, and all the

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extra devolutionary powers that are being promised to you? No, because

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the certainty with independence is that the Scottish people will have

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all of the power in their hands. The Scottish Government elected

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democratically, it will take all the decisions. When we talk about

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uncertainty, we have had this week Gordon Brown, our backbench Labour

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MP making a promise he can't keep, expecting the Scottish people to

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believe a Tory Government will implement a Labour plan. The weakest

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of the three plans on offer from the three unionist parties. I think the

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First Minister is correct. It this is a last ditch panic move. It is

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desperation at the heart of the no camp. Nobody is buying it. If you

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accept more Home Rule, Scotland's position in the EU, that is firm,

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its position in NATO, that is firm, monetary union with the rest of the

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United Kingdom, that is guaranteed. Independence, you can't guarantee

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any of these things, that is uncertain. I know I have made the

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case as to why a currency union is in the best interest of Scotland and

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the rest of the UK. You can't guarantee it. . I am certain that

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the arguments we have laid out, in terms of the currency are correct.

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There is not a serious commentator thinks we will be outside of the EU.

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I think the language that was used is Scotland be treated as a special

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and unique case. It could take time. It is not seamless, you party used

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to say it was automatic, the you wouldn't even have to apply again,

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you would remain a member of the EU. We although that is not the case

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now, it is uncertain. Andrew, I think it is the case that because

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there is no provision to pebbling a state or part of a state -- expel

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where there will be negotiation, they will be from the inside. You

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know, there are no more uncertainties with independence as

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there are risks as staying part of the union, this is a union with ?1.5

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trillion worth of debt. When the main parties travel to Scotland to

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tell the Scottish people what they can't do, they can't be seen to be

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photographed together. No-one is taking this seriously. The most

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serious point if there isn't uncertainty ant independence, why

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are investors pulling their cash out of Scotland, sinsing is on exit

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clauses in commercial property deals and the value of sterling is

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falling? That sounds like uncertainty. . In terms of sterling

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we saw a 1% dip two days ago, that has happened 16 times in the last

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year against the euro. Can I just point out against the dollar,

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sterling only a month ago was 1.72, it is now 1.61. That is a big fall.

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There are many reasons why currency prices change. I think to put all of

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that at the door of Scottish independence is wrong. To be honest,

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the smart commentators are suggesting as much of this is to do

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with the lack of preparedness of the UK government than independence

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itself. In terms of the stock price, if you look at Scotland's lives

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company, apart from cairn which has share problems unrelated to

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independence, their rise since the no campaign was at peak last

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September, it was 4.7%, that is against a 3.7% average for the FTSE

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100. It is wrong to suggest share prices are falling, because of

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independence. Except it was largely on Scottish prices that the big

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share prices fell. Why are investors pulling their money out of Scotland?

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Why are they moving their bank accounts south? The FTSE is down 1%

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already, that is across the entire inDerek this is not to do with

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Scottish independence. Why are people pulling their money out of

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Scotland? I have heard this scare story from our opponents many time.

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You know and I know over the past two years as the debate has

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happened, yes I have we have taken the lead, investment in Scotland,

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massive investment, not least the 14 billion of investment in the North

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Sea last year. It is wrong to say people are pulling out of Scotland

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at and it is wrong four our political Pope innocents to be

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spooking the market in this way. You say, just before I bring in our

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studio guests. A Scottish investment fund, we have moved hundreds of

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millions south of border, on the record. Another firm in Edinburgh.

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We have moved our bank account south. Resident commercial property

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investors now insisting on exit clauses should Scotland vote yes.

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That is uncertainty. It is on uncertainty if it is talked up.

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There are lots of reason to put an exit clause in deal if you think it

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might not go through. Doing it before? We are certain and I am sure

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the smart investors know this very well, that I will be huge

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opportunities in an ind Scotland, a country with a fundamentally robust

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economy, with huge plans to grow the economy, to create more wealth. I

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think investors will be flocking to Scotland to take advantage of the

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opportunities after the 19th September. I want you to listen to

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what our studio guests are saying. I will come back for a brief reaction

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from you. Why did Labour, which is basically calling the shots in this,

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in the no campaign, why did it wait to offer this new Home Rule package

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after all the postal votes had been cast? Well, Ed Miliband's been

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talking about further devolution for some time. You didn't spell it out

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until the postal votes had been cashed. The only conclusion is you

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are panicking The three party leaders have decided there should be

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further devolution of tax powers in addition to all the other powers the

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Scottish Parliament has. You are not going to take them way, are you.

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There has been a significant devolution of powers already in the

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time that we were in Government, and I think it is right now, in the

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closing weeks of campaign, that there is further clarity on the

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timetable. Let us have some clarity. Give us collarly. What extra tax

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powers will the Scottish Parliament get? We have talked about further

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devolution of income tax, obviously the details of that will need to

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be... You can't give clarity on what the details would be or a broad

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strategic description of what the income tax powers would be? There

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would be significantly more powers. What does that mean And that the tax

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now paid into the Treasury would go into Scottish coffers and there

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would be more control over that for the Scottish Parliament. How much

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income tax would be devolved? Detail would need to be worked out. Surely

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the people of Scotland are being asked to vote on their future, there

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is two alternative, one is clear, it is independence and they can take

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out a view on that. The alternative is not the status quo. We have been

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clear about that. You are saying further devolution, Gordon Brown

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calls it Home Rule. Don't the people of Scotland have a right to know

:15:29.:15:33.

what that would mean in terms of income tax, VAT, would the taxation

:15:34.:15:38.

on oil be devolved to Scotland? We have talked about the devolution of

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housing benefit. The devolution of income tax. I think it is very clear

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that there will be further devolution of power and I think that

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is right. I understand that but you promised clarity and I am not

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getting it. Will that taxation of oil be

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devolved? That is one of the things that will need to be worked out. I

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know that, I would like you to tell me will it all wanted or don't you

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know? The powers being put forward will fundamentally change the fiscal

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equation for Scotland. It will be a situation where most of its money

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gets handed down from Westminster and all they can decide to do is how

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they spend it to actually taking responsibility for raising when most

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of them may themselves. Whether that's from energy resources, or

:16:28.:16:33.

from income tax, corporation tax. So a home ruled Scotland would have its

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own powers over the taxation of oil would go to the Edinburgh

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parliament? We are not saying that exactly. You said taxation over

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energy policy. I said there were a lot of resources available from

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which governments can raise money, and what Scotland will get is a huge

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swathe of new powers, giving it responsible to the raising most of

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its money and then deciding how to spend it. That changes fundamentally

:17:07.:17:08.

the devolution equation for Scotland. Or are you hitting the

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panic button because you are about to lose the referendum? You say most

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taxation powers would be in Scotland. All the figures I have

:17:13.:17:15.

seen, whether you take the rather reluctant devolution of the Labour

:17:16.:17:19.

Party or the more enthusiastic devolution of your party is that

:17:20.:17:22.

actually about 40% of revenues raised in Scotland would go to the

:17:23.:17:27.

Scottish parliament. That's not most. Most income tax raised will be

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the responsibility. Income tax will become the responsibility of the

:17:33.:17:36.

Scottish Government. Do you agree that most income tax should be

:17:37.:17:40.

raised in Scotland? I think the decisions about text have wider

:17:41.:17:43.

implications for the rest of the union, and in that sense it is

:17:44.:17:46.

absolutely right. The direction of travel has been set, but the further

:17:47.:17:51.

detail needs to be considered with care and attention. But not by next

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Thursday, correct? Scots will have to vote blind on this matter. We

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have said income tax to a certain extent will be devolved and there

:18:02.:18:04.

will be further tax raising powers for the Scottish parliament. The

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direction of travel is clear. It is just the actual destination is not

:18:09.:18:13.

clear. Stewart Hosie, I will come back to you for the final word. A

:18:14.:18:18.

huge open goal in front of you? Reign just be serious for a second,

:18:19.:18:23.

the Scottish Government just a 600 page white paper, detail, questions,

:18:24.:18:26.

answers, everything, massive amount of detail. We can't even get a clear

:18:27.:18:33.

answer from Unionist parties about the proportion of income tax that

:18:34.:18:35.

will be devolved or if any other taxes will be devolved. It is simply

:18:36.:18:41.

not good enough, it is the bag of a -- back of a fag packet calculation.

:18:42.:18:47.

I can't wait till next Thursday. Neither can I, probably for

:18:48.:18:50.

different reasons. It's just that I'm working, you will be spectating.

:18:51.:18:53.

Stewart Hosie, thanks for joining us.

:18:54.:18:58.

We've heard plenty over the last few months and weeks about what Scottish

:18:59.:19:01.

independence would mean for Scotland - but what about the rest of the UK?

:19:02.:19:05.

What would a Yes vote next Thursday mean for people in England,

:19:06.:19:08.

Alex Salmond has said an independent Scotland would remove Trident

:19:09.:19:16.

nuclear sub Marines from their current base on the Clyde by 2020,

:19:17.:19:21.

leaving the rest of the UK with an expensive relocation bill. UK

:19:22.:19:24.

defence spending without Scotland would be reduced by 10%. Without

:19:25.:19:30.

Scotland, UK's role in the world could also change will stop if it is

:19:31.:19:34.

seen as less influential, United Kingdom would not be up to retain

:19:35.:19:40.

her permanent suit -- seat on the UN Security Council. Whether Scotland

:19:41.:19:46.

will be allowed to keep the pound would have an impact on the money

:19:47.:19:50.

markets. There will also be tough negotiation about how much of the

:19:51.:19:53.

national debt Scotland agrees to take on. Without Scotland, the rest

:19:54.:19:58.

of the UK's GDP would be about 8% smaller than now and the Westminster

:19:59.:20:02.

Treasury would take a hit from the loss of North Sea revenues fostered

:20:03.:20:06.

but some economists argue GDP per may actually increase in England,

:20:07.:20:11.

Wales and Northern Ireland and Scotland's average expenditure per

:20:12.:20:16.

person is ?1300 higher than the UK average. Politically, there is talk

:20:17.:20:20.

of a constitutional crisis. There could be cause for the Prime

:20:21.:20:24.

Minister and other party leaders to resign. An early general election

:20:25.:20:28.

could be triggered before Christmas. If the May 2015 election does go

:20:29.:20:33.

ahead, then any MPs elected in Scotland would only serve until the

:20:34.:20:36.

proposed Independence Day in March 2016. So if Labour is elected by a

:20:37.:20:43.

small majority, or there is a hung parliament, we could face another

:20:44.:20:48.

general election in 2016, once the 59 Scottish MPs are taken out of the

:20:49.:20:55.

equation. Let's look at some of the implications, if there is a yes vote

:20:56.:21:03.

next week, or even if there is not. A lot more home rule on offer for

:21:04.:21:07.

Scotland. Gordon Brown calls at home rule. Why shouldn't Wales have it?

:21:08.:21:12.

There isn't the appetite in Wales for independence, we know that.

:21:13.:21:15.

Devolution has worked in Wales, in the sense that it has killed off in

:21:16.:21:19.

the Tennents as a movement within Wales but what I believe is that the

:21:20.:21:24.

appetite for decision making within national borders, Wales, Northern

:21:25.:21:28.

Ireland and Scotland, that appetite should be met. So there should be

:21:29.:21:33.

more devolution of power to Wales? There will be in future if that's

:21:34.:21:37.

what the public opinion once. But are you in favour of it? I am

:21:38.:21:42.

open-minded about how devolution progresses in Wales. The important

:21:43.:21:46.

thing is that we need stability and a constitutional setup that helps

:21:47.:21:50.

foster unity rather than division. You once said devolution was as big

:21:51.:21:55.

a threat to this country as uncontrolled immigration, why do you

:21:56.:22:00.

want more of it? I was one of a great number of people in Wales who

:22:01.:22:04.

felt that devolution was a very risky path to go down, 12 years ago.

:22:05.:22:10.

It could cause huge and permanent damage to our country? In that time,

:22:11.:22:15.

devolution has worked in Wales, it has fostered unity and I think it's

:22:16.:22:18.

right. Every time the people of Wales when they asked you want more

:22:19.:22:22.

or less devolution, they say more please, but we don't want

:22:23.:22:26.

independence. Would a future Conservative government, if you win

:22:27.:22:33.

the election next year, will you give Wales more devolved powers?

:22:34.:22:36.

It's happening anyway. We have a bill going through Parliament which,

:22:37.:22:39.

for the first time, gives taxation powers to Wales. They are banking

:22:40.:22:45.

that, that's going through now. Will there be more, as a result of all

:22:46.:22:48.

the power unspecified in some areas that you are planning to give to

:22:49.:22:53.

Scotland, will there be more for Wales as well? If the appetite is

:22:54.:22:57.

therefore more powers, and Carl Wyn Jones has said he does not

:22:58.:22:59.

necessarily believe that Wales should have exactly the kind of

:23:00.:23:03.

devolution settlement Scotland, so it is not a case of whether Wales

:23:04.:23:08.

should have the same... I didn't ask that, I simply asked if there would

:23:09.:23:12.

be more? I said yes, Wales is getting more. Would that be true

:23:13.:23:19.

under Labour too? It is important to talk about devolution in England. We

:23:20.:23:24.

will come to that in a second, but let me sign off on the Wales

:23:25.:23:28.

question, would a future Labour government devolved more power to

:23:29.:23:32.

the Welsh Parliament or a semi? I think the Welsh assembly has already

:23:33.:23:36.

got a number of powers. We know that, but would it get more? I am

:23:37.:23:42.

not entirely confident that there is appetite for significantly more

:23:43.:23:46.

devolution of powers in Wales full stop let's come on to England, 85%

:23:47.:23:50.

of the United Kingdom by population. If Scotland is to get a

:23:51.:23:55.

lot more power, including almost complete control over its divest it

:23:56.:23:58.

affairs and substantial taxation powers, does that not mean that you

:23:59.:24:03.

have to answer the West Lothian question, that Scottish MPs cannot

:24:04.:24:07.

vote on English only matters? I think what is an important question

:24:08.:24:11.

is actually more so what does it mean in terms of the centralised

:24:12.:24:15.

nature of our country? We are more centralised than many other European

:24:16.:24:21.

countries. Why don't you devolve and have an English only Parliament

:24:22.:24:24.

Sundays in the Commons when Scottish and Welsh MPs can't vote on English

:24:25.:24:28.

matters? What it actually points to is that we need to devolved powers,

:24:29.:24:32.

responsibilities and perhaps resource, which we have talked about

:24:33.:24:35.

in recent months, to local authorities in England that come

:24:36.:24:38.

together and work together. That is, for me, a more significant move, in

:24:39.:24:44.

terms of devolution. Why would it be right for a Scottish MP, who under

:24:45.:24:48.

the Gordon Brown scheme that you signed up to, would have no say

:24:49.:24:55.

whatsoever over domestic Scottish matters, or over income tax, why

:24:56.:24:59.

should that Scottish MP have any say over England's domestic matters?

:25:00.:25:04.

Because there will still be domestic affairs we continue together and I

:25:05.:25:08.

believe in the integration of the UK Parliament. If this Scottish MP has

:25:09.:25:13.

no say over Scottish education or how it is to be funded, why should

:25:14.:25:18.

he or she have a vote over English education, which doesn't affect its

:25:19.:25:22.

constituency? We already have that situation, and I do think it is

:25:23.:25:26.

important that the body politic that sits in Westminster, that represents

:25:27.:25:30.

every corner of our family of nations, have the same rights. Is it

:25:31.:25:36.

conceivable that you can agree to all this extra devolution for

:25:37.:25:41.

Scotland without coming up for something with England as well, that

:25:42.:25:46.

allows English MPs... Alex Salmond says constantly the Scots should

:25:47.:25:50.

decide their own future. When will the English be allowed to decide

:25:51.:25:54.

their own domestic affairs without Scottish or Welsh MPs voting on the

:25:55.:25:59.

same issues? I don't think it is conceivable to devolve this new

:26:00.:26:03.

suite of powers to Scotland and leave the constitutional settlement

:26:04.:26:06.

affecting Northern Ireland, Wales and England in tact. You think there

:26:07.:26:12.

has to be a UK... Absolutely, there needs to be a UK wide response. Yes,

:26:13.:26:17.

we have given a commitment to give more powers to the people of

:26:18.:26:19.

Scotland, because that is what they want, but we need to look at the

:26:20.:26:23.

other nations as equal nations. We talk the language of being a family

:26:24.:26:27.

of nations, in the United Kingdom. For the first time, we need to look

:26:28.:26:31.

at the Constitution as if we are generally a family. The primers to

:26:32.:26:37.

has told the audience in Edinburgh that he would be heartbroken if --

:26:38.:26:42.

the Prime Minister. Arguing, I love my country more than I love my

:26:43.:26:50.

party. There we go. As we have been discussing, the latest ploy is to

:26:51.:26:53.

reach out to voters in Scotland to tell them that they really do want

:26:54.:27:00.

them to stay. We have heard from David Blunkett saying it is time for

:27:01.:27:05.

people in the UK to phone a Scottish friend.

:27:06.:27:10.

David Cameron and Ed Miliband urged homes and offices

:27:11.:27:12.

across the country to fly the saltire, and it was even raised

:27:13.:27:15.

It happens every day on Saint Andrew stay, but never mind.

:27:16.:27:19.

But in what the superstitious might regard as something

:27:20.:27:21.

of a bad omen for the unionists, the flag fell down, and it took several

:27:22.:27:25.

But, wherever you stand on Scottish independence, there's one thing that

:27:26.:27:29.

we know is universally popular, from Land's End to John O'Groats.

:27:30.:27:31.

No, not the Great British Bake-Off, I speak of course of the

:27:32.:27:34.

We'll remind you how to enter in a minute, but let's see if you

:27:35.:27:39.

MUSIC: "Don't Stop Till You Get Enough" by Michael Jackson.

:27:40.:28:03.

I've always maintained I was innocent

:28:04.:28:14.

MUSIC: "Message in a Bottle" by The Police.

:28:15.:28:22.

I inherited a dairy industry in whch costs had risen, and producers

:28:23.:28:25.

MUSIC: "I Don't Like Mondays" by The Boomtown Rats.

:28:26.:29:06.

To be in with a chance of winning a Daily Politics mug, send your

:29:07.:29:10.

answer to our special quiz email address, that's [email protected]

:29:11.:29:14.

And you can see the full terms and conditions for Guess The Year

:29:15.:29:17.

on our website, that's bbc.co.uk/dailypolitics.

:29:18.:29:27.

What are the full terms and conditions? Have you got half an

:29:28.:29:30.

hour. No. It's coming up to midday here,

:29:31.:29:31.

just take a look at Big Ben, yes, Prime Minister's Questions is

:29:32.:29:34.

on its way, minus the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition,

:29:35.:29:39.

of course. Other than that, it's going to be

:29:40.:29:40.

great! LAUGHTER And that's not all,

:29:41.:29:43.

James Landale is here. So we have got the B team, all eyes

:29:44.:29:51.

are north of the border, does any buddy rarely care what Mr Hague or

:29:52.:29:55.

Miss Harman have to say? Only if they make a mistake. I would expect

:29:56.:30:00.

them to stick to safety first, talk about Scotland, they don't want to

:30:01.:30:04.

portray an image of disunity today. They will agree. Just to let you

:30:05.:30:08.

know, you quoted some of the premise's words, can you also tell

:30:09.:30:12.

you something else -- tell you something Ozzie said, he said this

:30:13.:30:15.

was a decision that would last for centuries. It was not, I quote, if

:30:16.:30:20.

you are fed up with the Tories, you can give them a kick. That is what

:30:21.:30:25.

the primers to said, -- Prime Minister said the premise to said

:30:26.:30:32.

effing Tories. Feeling more to the heart than the head. He saying to

:30:33.:30:37.

Scots, this is not an occasion if you are fed up with the effing

:30:38.:30:40.

Tories give them a kick, this is a decision that would last for

:30:41.:30:45.

centuries. Let's go straight to the house. I hope the language is

:30:46.:30:47.

better. To listen and talk to voters about

:30:48.:31:03.

the huge choice they face, and their message to the Scottish people is

:31:04.:31:07.

simple, from the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland, we want

:31:08.:31:15.

you to stay in the United Kingdom. I join the Prime Minister in the

:31:16.:31:19.

tribute he paid on Monday to Jim Dobbin who died at the weekend. He

:31:20.:31:25.

was a proud Scot and a hard-working and principled particletarian who

:31:26.:31:27.

was respected op both sides of this House. He will be very sadly missed

:31:28.:31:31.

and I know that the thoughts of the whole House are with his family and

:31:32.:31:35.

his friends. Mr Speaker, this morning I had meeting with

:31:36.:31:39.

ministerial colleagues and others and in addition to my duties in this

:31:40.:31:44.

House I will have further such meetings later today.

:31:45.:31:50.

Can I join the the leader of the House in paying tribute to Jim

:31:51.:31:55.

Dobbin, he was a kind and decent man and he he will be sorely missed. Our

:31:56.:32:00.

thoughts and prayers are with his wife Pat and the family. The bedroom

:32:01.:32:05.

tax is discriminal nay Troy. It is damaging amend not even working. On

:32:06.:32:10.

Friday, this House was very very clear, will the Government now

:32:11.:32:14.

listen, will it scrap this wretched pod sip -- policy because if they

:32:15.:32:19.

won't, we will. Well, Mr Speaker, this is a basic

:32:20.:32:23.

issue of fairness here, because if you live in private rented

:32:24.:32:27.

accommodation and receive housing benefit the rules apply throughout

:32:28.:32:30.

the whole of the last Labour Government and we had a situation

:32:31.:32:35.

which neighbouring households could be treated unequally. She asked

:32:36.:32:39.

about the Private Members Bill, the proposal in that bill could cost the

:32:40.:32:43.

country up to ?1 billion and because we have introduced a cap on overall

:32:44.:32:50.

spending, making the changes would mean finding savings elsewhere. I

:32:51.:32:55.

haven't heard suggestion from the party opposite for that. Assuming a

:32:56.:33:00.

no vote in the Scottish referendum, who in the Government will respect

:33:01.:33:04.

England for the new devolution settlement? Who speaks for England,

:33:05.:33:09.

because we need a voice and a new deal? Well, there are many of us who

:33:10.:33:16.

having represented Yorkshire for 25 year, I can claim to speak for

:33:17.:33:21.

England, from time to time. -- years.

:33:22.:33:25.

Your shire men are keen for a far bigger area than they represent

:33:26.:33:30.

themselves. Of course, all of these debates are to be had once the

:33:31.:33:39.

referendum is concluded. Can I thank the Right Honourable member for the

:33:40.:33:44.

word he said about our good friend and colleague Jim Dobbin, and add my

:33:45.:33:49.

tribute to him on his sudden and tragic death at the weekend. He was,

:33:50.:33:55.

as has been said a accident man who stuck to his principles and at a

:33:56.:33:59.

time when it is fashionable to say politicians are in it for themselves

:34:00.:34:05.

he was the opposite of that. Our deepest sympathies are with Pat and

:34:06.:34:08.

their children and we will miss him greatly. -- a accident man. Historic

:34:09.:34:16.

is is a much overused word in politics, does he agree in eight

:34:17.:34:20.

days people the people of Scotland will make a truly historic decision?

:34:21.:34:24.

This is their vote, but I want the message from this side of the House

:34:25.:34:30.

to be heard loud and clear, we want Scotland to stay. I do agree with

:34:31.:34:36.

the Right Honourable lady and that is a clear message from her side of

:34:37.:34:40.

the House and from our different political perspectives, from the

:34:41.:34:43.

side of the House as well. I hope therefore the message the people of

:34:44.:34:47.

Scotland will hear from this House, where Scottish Parliamentarians have

:34:48.:34:52.

made an imminence -- immense contribution for generations we want

:34:53.:34:56.

to stay together and cannot imagine life on these isles without him

:34:57.:35:00.

them. She is a London MP and speaks for millions in what she has said.

:35:01.:35:05.

As, as I fleshed, I am a Yorkshire MP who served as Secretary of State

:35:06.:35:10.

for Wales and we are all proud to be British, combining those identities.

:35:11.:35:15.

There is no doubt we would all be diminished if Scotland was separated

:35:16.:35:20.

from the people of the rest of UK. The roots of our party are deep in

:35:21.:35:24.

Scotland, and we deliver devolution and the Scottish Parliament, but we

:35:25.:35:30.

need to go further. Will he confirm that there will be further

:35:31.:35:34.

devolution and a Scotland Bill setting is out new powers, published

:35:35.:35:41.

in January? Well, as the Right Honourable lady knows that the three

:35:42.:35:45.

main party leaders have come together to agree a programme for

:35:46.:35:51.

change, the member for Cowdenbeath has set out a process for how it

:35:52.:35:56.

could be delivered, to a tight timetable, all three main parties

:35:57.:36:00.

have endorsed that timetable and it mean, immediate action, the day

:36:01.:36:04.

after the referendum, to start the legislative process, it means a

:36:05.:36:07.

command paper, including proposals at the end of October, with a full

:36:08.:36:12.

draft Scotland Bill published by the end of January. And the introduction

:36:13.:36:17.

of a bill, after the general election, regardless of who forms

:36:18.:36:21.

the Government. So that is a clear timetable, and it shows that Scots

:36:22.:36:27.

can have change, without irreversible separation and without

:36:28.:36:32.

risks to jobs and their future. For the clarity of that answer, as we

:36:33.:36:36.

set about devolving further powers to Scotland does he agree that time

:36:37.:36:40.

has also come to devolve further power to Wales and crucially to the

:36:41.:36:46.

great cities and regions of England too? The decision next week, of

:36:47.:36:51.

course, as we know is a matter for the people of Scotland, the

:36:52.:36:54.

implications will be felt by all the people of the United Kingdom, we are

:36:55.:37:01.

already steadily devolving increased power to the, to parts of England as

:37:02.:37:05.

well as have been doing so in Wales, under this Government, Wales has

:37:06.:37:09.

received more primary law making power, we are moving to devolving

:37:10.:37:13.

tax and borrowing powers for the first time, we want to see

:37:14.:37:18.

devolution in Northern Ireland succeed, in England the Lokalism act

:37:19.:37:24.

devolves power of business rates to Local Authorities an city deals have

:37:25.:37:28.

given local areas more of a say. The great strength of the United Kingdom

:37:29.:37:33.

is that it is not a rigid union, it's a living, flexible union, and

:37:34.:37:38.

that is one of its greatest strengths of all. For us, on this

:37:39.:37:44.

side of the House, a fundamental principle of our politics is

:37:45.:37:49.

solidarity, we want the UK to stick together in the cause of social

:37:50.:37:53.

justice. Does he agree with me it is wrong to set the different countries

:37:54.:37:58.

of the UK against each other, whether it is on workers' rights or

:37:59.:38:05.

corporation tax? Well, the Right Honourable lady makes a powerful

:38:06.:38:09.

point about solidarity in the UK. For 300 years we have sat in this

:38:10.:38:13.

House, with Scottish Parliamentarians and their

:38:14.:38:17.

predecessors and they have sat together, from the 18th century to

:38:18.:38:20.

implement a range of together, from the 18th century to

:38:21.:38:25.

causes, from the abolition of the slave trade to our pursuit of human

:38:26.:38:28.

rights and development across the world. We have often led the way at

:38:29.:38:35.

times of world crisis, and been an inspiration to democratic peoples

:38:36.:38:39.

elsewhere. The next 300 years could be as turbulent and dangerous at the

:38:40.:38:44.

last 300 year, so to tear apart a union so proven, so precious, and so

:38:45.:38:50.

valuable, would be a tragic mistake for all our people. People in

:38:51.:38:55.

Scotland can now be certain that with a no vote there would be

:38:56.:38:59.

change, and more powers for Scotland. Does he agree with me that

:39:00.:39:05.

posed against that certainty, is the uncertainty that a yes vote would

:39:06.:39:10.

bring on so many issues like job, pensions, mortgages and the

:39:11.:39:14.

currency? The uncertainty would bring, as impossible to list in the

:39:15.:39:19.

answer to one question, but a letter signed last week by more than 120

:39:20.:39:25.

job creators from across the whole range of Scottish business concluded

:39:26.:39:30.

that the business case for independence had not been made. They

:39:31.:39:35.

said uncertainty surround vital issues including currency,

:39:36.:39:38.

regulation, tax, pension, EU membership and support from for our

:39:39.:39:43.

exports round the world. They said uncertainty is bad for business. The

:39:44.:39:46.

Governor of the Bank of England said yesterday that sovereignty and the

:39:47.:39:49.

currency union are incompatible and he is right. Many of us have pointed

:39:50.:39:55.

that out for many years in relation to another currency. And be certain

:39:56.:40:00.

of this. Be certain of this. This is not an opinion poll where you can

:40:01.:40:04.

change your mind the next day. It is not an election where you can

:40:05.:40:08.

reverse the result four or five years later. It is a permanent

:40:09.:40:14.

decision that will affect generations, and therefore, the

:40:15.:40:17.

votes cast next Thursday will probably be the most important vote

:40:18.:40:22.

that can be cast in any country, at any time, and the voters must

:40:23.:40:29.

therefore weigh that vote heavily. While jobs, pension, taxes are

:40:30.:40:33.

important, next week's decisions, as he rightly says is about much, much

:40:34.:40:37.

more than that. For sure, there must be change. We must have that and we

:40:38.:40:42.

will, but not by tearing this country apart. We must stay as

:40:43.:40:47.

family, not become foreigners to each other. She puts it very well.

:40:48.:40:58.

We all want the best for Scotland as we want the best for our own

:40:59.:41:02.

constituents, from all parts of the UK in many. The people of England,

:41:03.:41:06.

Wales and Northern Ireland believe Scotland is better off in the UK and

:41:07.:41:09.

the UK is better off with Scotland in it. So this referendum is the

:41:10.:41:14.

most important choice the people of Scotland will ever make. A choice

:41:15.:41:18.

between the opportunity and security of staying in the UK, or of leaving

:41:19.:41:23.

for ever, without the pound, without the UK's influence in the world,

:41:24.:41:27.

with Scotland as part of the UK, we have the best possible situation and

:41:28.:41:32.

a great future together in the United Kingdom. Mr Speaker, since

:41:33.:41:39.

2012, my right honourable friend and I have been supporting the policy of

:41:40.:41:45.

the Government, not to offer so-called Devo Max as a consolation

:41:46.:41:49.

prize in the event of a no vote, in the Scottish referendum. If this is

:41:50.:41:53.

no longer the policy of the Government, when and why did it

:41:54.:41:58.

change, and what opportunity has there been for this House to express

:41:59.:42:04.

its view? It has been the policy of the Government for some time, to be

:42:05.:42:07.

open to further devolution and I gave examples of what we have done

:42:08.:42:12.

in Wales for instance, during the lifetime of this Government. The

:42:13.:42:17.

statements by the party leaders, made on this in the last few day,

:42:18.:42:24.

are statement by party leaders, in a campaign, not a statement of

:42:25.:42:27.

Government policy but a statement of commitment from the three main

:42:28.:42:31.

political party, akin to statements by party leaders in a general

:42:32.:42:35.

election campaign, of what they intend to do afterwards, it is on

:42:36.:42:39.

that basis they have made those statements.

:42:40.:42:45.

In 2012, the Chancellor set himself a target to double exports to 1

:42:46.:42:51.

trillion by 2020. I wonder whether he could won firm his Government is

:42:52.:42:57.

on course to miss this tart get by a massive -- this target by a massive

:42:58.:43:03.

300 billion. Nobody can claim to know what the figure will be in 2020

:43:04.:43:07.

since we are only in 2014 at the moment. A great deal of work, a

:43:08.:43:14.

great deal of work has to be done, but we have greatly intensified the

:43:15.:43:20.

promotion of British e ports, that is why and in my time as Foreign

:43:21.:43:26.

Secretary opened nearly 20 new embassies and Consulates, including

:43:27.:43:29.

many that the party opposite closed when they were in power, that is why

:43:30.:43:36.

we have revamped UK TI. We have huge increases in exports to countries

:43:37.:43:41.

like China and India and Brazil, and everybody, of all parties and

:43:42.:43:45.

business, must join in making a success of that by 2020. Mr Speaker,

:43:46.:43:50.

my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister

:43:51.:43:54.

and the Leader of the Opposition are rightly campaigning today, for the

:43:55.:44:01.

future of our union. On a dally day sips, with Gatwick in my

:44:02.:44:07.

constituency, I see the strong family and business links between my

:44:08.:44:13.

local airport and Scottish airports. Does my right honourable friend the

:44:14.:44:17.

leader of the house agree with me, that our great kingdom is better

:44:18.:44:23.

together, as a united Britain? I say that as somebody with proud Scottish

:44:24.:44:29.

ancestry. Yes, I absolutely agree with my honourable friend and what

:44:30.:44:34.

he can see at Gatwick Airport and what we all experience round other

:44:35.:44:38.

parts of eping England and Wales is a very good example of his point. In

:44:39.:44:43.

fact two thirds of Scottish exports are exported to the rest of the

:44:44.:44:47.

United Kingdom. Twice as much as to the rest of the world put together.

:44:48.:44:54.

Why would anyone choose to place an international border, where those

:44:55.:44:59.

exports are going? And do so unnecessarily. So he makes a very

:45:00.:45:05.

powerful point. Mr Speaker, the leader of the house

:45:06.:45:09.

is right. Next Thursday, the Scots go to the polls to make what is

:45:10.:45:15.

undoubtedly the most historic momentous decision we have had the

:45:16.:45:18.

privilege to consider. Will the Leader of the House join me

:45:19.:45:31.

in congratulating the Scottish people for the way they have gone

:45:32.:45:34.

around conducting this incredible debate? Well, I'm happy... He is

:45:35.:45:45.

right, it was a gentle understatement that we want

:45:46.:45:49.

different things from this process. LAUGHTER

:45:50.:45:55.

But of course we applaud the people of Scotland for taking such an

:45:56.:45:57.

immense interest in this on all sides. And of course it's very

:45:58.:46:02.

important that there is a high turnout in any such referendum, so I

:46:03.:46:05.

absolutely congratulate the people of Scotland, but I don't

:46:06.:46:11.

congratulate those such as his own party who have failed to be straight

:46:12.:46:19.

with the people of Scotland. Who have never explained what money

:46:20.:46:22.

Scotland will use, and what its value will be, who have never

:46:23.:46:27.

explained how long it would take to rejoin the European Union and on

:46:28.:46:31.

what terms, who have never explained how they would fund schools and

:46:32.:46:36.

hospitals, when there would be a ?6 billion black hole in their

:46:37.:46:40.

finances, who haven't explained that their threat not to pay debts would

:46:41.:46:45.

be disastrous for Scotland's long-term future. They are

:46:46.:46:48.

passionate about Scotland, and they are passionate about separation but

:46:49.:46:51.

they are not passionate about telling the truth to the people of

:46:52.:46:59.

Scotland. Embracing three centuries, the garrison town of

:47:00.:47:06.

Colchester has welcomed thousands of Scottish soldiers, many with their

:47:07.:47:13.

families. We wish that to continue. Does the Leader of the House agree

:47:14.:47:17.

with the Defence Select Committee that if Scotland ceased to be part

:47:18.:47:22.

of the UK, and we have the best Armed Forces in Europe, this would

:47:23.:47:27.

pose serious security and defence risks for a separate Scotland,

:47:28.:47:31.

without the capacity to defend itself? My honourable friend makes

:47:32.:47:39.

an extremely important point. He sees the participation and the work

:47:40.:47:42.

and the sacrifices of members of the armed Forces from Scotland when they

:47:43.:47:48.

are deployed in cultures to. I see the garrison in my own constituency.

:47:49.:47:51.

He makes an important point about the security of all of us --

:47:52.:47:59.

deployed in Colchester. It is important for Scotland's security.

:48:00.:48:05.

Her Majesty's Naval base, Clyde, is the largest employment site on the

:48:06.:48:08.

whole of Scotland and is going to get vigour with the deployment of

:48:09.:48:14.

all of our submarines. These things are put at risk. Last Thursday, I

:48:15.:48:25.

attended a public meeting in my constituency, where the doctors were

:48:26.:48:30.

consulting their patients about how they were going to deal with a

:48:31.:48:37.

budgetary cut of 22 to 24% by the year 2018. This cut of 22 to 24% has

:48:38.:48:44.

officially been notified to them by NHS England. Will the Leader of the

:48:45.:48:47.

House confirmed that if the Conservatives are in power after the

:48:48.:48:51.

general election, these are the cuts that my constituents can expect? I

:48:52.:48:55.

can confirm that this government has raised the NHS budget in line with

:48:56.:49:00.

inflation, which his party was not committed to do at the last general

:49:01.:49:04.

election. I know the Secretary of State for health will want to

:49:05.:49:07.

discuss with him the details of the local situation, but I hope he did

:49:08.:49:13.

explain to them that, overall, since the last election, the number of

:49:14.:49:18.

nurses is up 3700, the number of doctors is up 6500, the number of

:49:19.:49:23.

people who say they are treated with dignity and respect is up 10%, and

:49:24.:49:28.

we've now been ranked as the top health system in the world,

:49:29.:49:32.

according to the Commonwealth fund, moving from seventh in the world

:49:33.:49:33.

four years ago. Would my right honourable friend

:49:34.:49:44.

applaud the initiative of Prince Harry, in creating the Invicta 's

:49:45.:49:48.

games, and welcome all the participants to this country on our

:49:49.:49:59.

behalf? Absolutely -- Invictus Games. This is an important

:50:00.:50:03.

continuation of the immensely proud sporting history we have in this

:50:04.:50:07.

country. We are established again as one of the great sporting nations of

:50:08.:50:10.

the world, and we are also a country that thinks deeply about the welfare

:50:11.:50:15.

of service veterans and his Royal Highness, Prince Harry, has been one

:50:16.:50:19.

of the great champions of this and we wish him and everyone involved in

:50:20.:50:26.

the game is very much well. In 2012, the primers to said he wanted to see

:50:27.:50:31.

economic growth that meant rising living standards for all. Can the

:50:32.:50:34.

Leader of the House tell us why Britain has seen one of the largest

:50:35.:50:38.

falls in real wages of any EU country, beaten only by Cyprus,

:50:39.:50:44.

Portugal and Greece? He might remember that there was a debt

:50:45.:50:48.

fuelled recession that came about under the previous government. And,

:50:49.:50:54.

of course, that has to be paid for. But after four years now of the

:50:55.:51:00.

disciplined policy of my right honourable friend, the Chancellor of

:51:01.:51:03.

the Exchequer, we now have the fastest growth of the G-7 economies.

:51:04.:51:09.

We have employment nearing a record high. We have nearly 2 million new

:51:10.:51:15.

apprenticeships who have started in this time. This is a remarkable

:51:16.:51:18.

economic turnaround from a catastrophic situation we were left.

:51:19.:51:24.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Does the Leader of the House agree with me

:51:25.:51:29.

that Scottish independence is not about getting one over Westminster,

:51:30.:51:34.

is not about embarrassing the Prime Minister or the leader of the

:51:35.:51:38.

opposition, it's not about defeating the old enemy, but it is about

:51:39.:51:44.

Scotland turning its back on 300 years of successful union and

:51:45.:51:47.

rejecting so much that this country has made to make us all so proud of

:51:48.:51:55.

being part of Great Britain? My honourable friend is right, it is

:51:56.:52:00.

not about any individual or party or election, it is a far longer term

:52:01.:52:06.

decision than that. And, I must say, in my experience all over the world,

:52:07.:52:10.

other nations regard the UK with admiration and sometimes even envy.

:52:11.:52:16.

If Scotland voted yes, all over the world, people who share our values

:52:17.:52:21.

and count on our contribution to peace, stability and human rights,

:52:22.:52:25.

would be disappointed, while those who don't share those priorities and

:52:26.:52:28.

beliefs would be quietly satisfied, and that is another thing we all

:52:29.:52:34.

have to bear in mind. At the end of last month, my constituent

:52:35.:52:43.

disappeared in Qatar. He had been arrested by the Secret Service there

:52:44.:52:48.

because he was investigating the human rights abuses of workers who

:52:49.:52:53.

were working to build the infrastructure for the 2022 World

:52:54.:52:58.

Cup. I thank the Foreign Office for their help in securing his release,

:52:59.:53:03.

but what action will he take to speak to the Ambassador of Qatar

:53:04.:53:10.

about the disgrace of arresting him in the first place and the treatment

:53:11.:53:14.

of those preparing those facilities? The honourable member 's right to

:53:15.:53:20.

say the Foreign Office has pursued it and achieved some success in

:53:21.:53:25.

doing so, as we will in any parallel cases in the future. I know that the

:53:26.:53:29.

embassy and the Foreign Office will want to follow up these matters.

:53:30.:53:33.

That is for my successor, the Foreign Secretary, to determine, so

:53:34.:53:37.

I will draw his attention to the question asked by the honourable

:53:38.:53:41.

member and ask him to write to him about it. With mounting evidence of

:53:42.:53:49.

an innovative, very vibrant and growing real economy, especially in

:53:50.:53:52.

manufacturing and engineering, does the first Secretary of State agree

:53:53.:53:56.

with me that Scotland should remain with us, first to share in the

:53:57.:54:00.

fruits of that success, and second to give us a bigger footprint in the

:54:01.:54:07.

global trade? Yes, I do. This is another very good point, and the

:54:08.:54:10.

economic turnaround that has now been brought about by the UK means

:54:11.:54:14.

that employment in Scotland is now at a record high. There have been

:54:15.:54:19.

seven consecutive quarters of economic growth in Scotland. And

:54:20.:54:24.

there are a quarter of a million more private-sector jobs in Scotland

:54:25.:54:29.

than there were four years ago. That is a reminder of the potential, if

:54:30.:54:32.

we continue to work together, and that is the message that I again

:54:33.:54:37.

repeat to the people of Scotland today. I welcomed suggestions that

:54:38.:54:43.

the premise to will attend the crucial climate summit at the end of

:54:44.:54:48.

this month. Will he confirm the primers to will go and will he tell

:54:49.:54:51.

us what bold new initiative is the prime list will be taking with him,

:54:52.:54:54.

because that's what my constituents in Brighton say they want. They want

:54:55.:54:58.

to protect what they want, they want urgent action on climate change.

:54:59.:55:04.

Order, can I just say, for future reference, it is disorderly to

:55:05.:55:09.

display images in that way, and I say with all courtesy to the

:55:10.:55:12.

honourable lady, whose principal and commitment I respect, that if

:55:13.:55:17.

everybody did that on every cause, it would make a mockery of this

:55:18.:55:22.

place. I asked the honourable lady to take a view much wider than her

:55:23.:55:28.

own immediate preoccupation. Leader of the House. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

:55:29.:55:34.

The answer is the Prime Minister will attend the UN General Assembly

:55:35.:55:40.

later it is September. We haven't yet issued or finally decided his

:55:41.:55:44.

precise schedule, but of course we are looking at attending the meeting

:55:45.:55:51.

the honourable lady refers to, and Britain will continue to play a

:55:52.:55:56.

leading role in the world in bringing about legally abiding

:55:57.:56:00.

agreement on climate change. The next 15 months is a very important

:56:01.:56:03.

period on this, leading up to the meeting in Paris at the end of next

:56:04.:56:08.

year. We are one of the most active countries in the world on climate

:56:09.:56:12.

change diplomacy, and the prime list and other ministers in New York will

:56:13.:56:15.

be fully conveying that, whoever attends the meeting. Will my

:56:16.:56:24.

honourable friend explained to the house why it is that with the

:56:25.:56:28.

possibility that there could be a yes vote, finance is leaving

:56:29.:56:34.

Scotland, many businesses are thinking of leaving Scotland? Surely

:56:35.:56:38.

if economic arguments were so good for the Yes campaign, the reverse

:56:39.:56:43.

would be happening? My honourable friend makes a very powerful point,

:56:44.:56:47.

the anxieties of big businesses are very clear to see. And while we can

:56:48.:56:53.

understand people doubting the word of politicians about economic

:56:54.:56:57.

events, it's very important to listen to what businesses say they

:56:58.:57:01.

will do with their jobs, with their headquarters, with their

:57:02.:57:06.

investments, because a country that has separated itself from the

:57:07.:57:10.

fastest-growing economy of the G-7, that put itself outside the European

:57:11.:57:15.

Union without thinking about implications of doing that, and that

:57:16.:57:21.

ended up with no central bank and unsure which currency was going to

:57:22.:57:24.

use would of course find it difficult to attract new business to

:57:25.:57:32.

its shores. The transatlantic trade and investment partnership believes

:57:33.:57:36.

the health service vulnerable to some of the worst possible outcomes

:57:37.:57:40.

of this government's privatisation programme. Private investors will be

:57:41.:57:46.

able to hold the government and devolved ministrations through the

:57:47.:57:50.

investor state settlement tribunal, in that respect how can the Leader

:57:51.:57:53.

of the House guarantee that the health service, including the health

:57:54.:57:58.

services in the devolved administrations, will be except? My

:57:59.:58:06.

right honourable friend has been dealing with these matters and has

:58:07.:58:11.

held a briefing about such matters, so I have no doubt we can furnish

:58:12.:58:14.

her with more details on these issues. But it is very important to

:58:15.:58:22.

maintain a commitment to free trade that has been a characteristic of

:58:23.:58:24.

the United Kingdom over many centuries, and which has invariably

:58:25.:58:31.

brought greater prosperity to the people of the UK, as well as to

:58:32.:58:34.

people all over the rest of the world. The transatlantic trade and

:58:35.:58:38.

investment partnership is another major opportunity to boost free

:58:39.:58:46.

trade across the world. Mr Speaker, a vote next week in favour of an

:58:47.:58:50.

independent Scotland would have major damaging implications for

:58:51.:58:54.

Wales. Does my right honourable friend agree with me that my fellow

:58:55.:58:59.

Welsh citizens, who care about the future of our Welsh nation, should

:59:00.:59:05.

be hoping and praying for rejection of the break-up of the United

:59:06.:59:11.

Kingdom? Yes. Absolutely. I think they are. I regularly consult with

:59:12.:59:17.

at least one Welsh citizens, and on the evidence of that, they are very

:59:18.:59:22.

much hoping and praying that the UK will not be broken up, and my

:59:23.:59:26.

honourable friend I know speaks very well for his constituents in mid

:59:27.:59:29.

Wales. All of us in the United Kingdom would be diminished by the

:59:30.:59:33.

break-up of the United Kingdom. We are something greater than the sum

:59:34.:59:36.

of our parts, and that is well understood across the UK, and the

:59:37.:59:42.

impact upon Wales would be a mistake of all.

:59:43.:59:50.

Six in ten people couldn't get a GP's appointment within two days of

:59:51.:59:58.

them needing one. Can the Secretary of State explain to the house why

:59:59.:00:03.

his party won't support Labour's patrol Sams to guarantee an

:00:04.:00:08.

appointment withinle hours. Professionals in the health system

:00:09.:00:12.

have said going back to that target would be a counter productive thing

:00:13.:00:17.

to do. And the honourable member knows that the number of people

:00:18.:00:24.

treated by GPs has increased by many millions over the last four years,

:00:25.:00:29.

that is a trend that is continuing, of course, we are always trying to

:00:30.:00:35.

seek further improvement but reintroducing the old failed target

:00:36.:00:39.

is not the way forward. When I travel abroad, and I am asked

:00:40.:00:45.

where I come from, I am proud to say, I am British. Does my right

:00:46.:00:48.

honourable friend agree with me that you can be proud to be British but

:00:49.:00:54.

still have your own identity of being English, Scottish, Welsh or

:00:55.:00:58.

from Northern Ireland and we should remain together and continue as

:00:59.:01:05.

Great Britons. I don't think anybody could have put it better. My right

:01:06.:01:08.

honourable friend has his own identity in different ways, he has

:01:09.:01:12.

expressed that beautifully including his identity with the United Kingdom

:01:13.:01:15.

and that is how so many of us think in Britain and let us hope it is

:01:16.:01:22.

possible to continue to do so. Mr Speaker, can I support the visit

:01:23.:01:26.

of the Prime Minister, Deputy Prime Minister and the leader of the

:01:27.:01:30.

opposition, speaking directly to people of Scotland, my right

:01:31.:01:34.

honourable friends and myself, and honourable member, speaking on

:01:35.:01:37.

behalf of the vast majority of the people in Northern Ireland, they

:01:38.:01:41.

want the United Kingdom to stay together, and it is my hope, that

:01:42.:01:47.

some of those who are crowing today, may be disappointed after the

:01:48.:01:51.

referendum. That is certainly my hope as well, and I am very pleased

:01:52.:01:55.

the right honourable gentleman has been able to make this point. It

:01:56.:01:59.

means in this short Question Time, we have heard from members from

:02:00.:02:04.

England, Wales and Northern Ireland, with very clear message to the

:02:05.:02:08.

people of Scotland, that we want them to stay. Mr Speaker, my parents

:02:09.:02:15.

will soon celebrate their 60th wedding anniversary. My mother was

:02:16.:02:23.

born in Aberdeen, and my father in Cambridge. Is my right honourable

:02:24.:02:27.

friend reassured there is no need for any senior politicians to come

:02:28.:02:31.

to their anniversary event, because my parents know in their heads, and

:02:32.:02:36.

in their hearts, that in their union, as in the other union, they

:02:37.:02:42.

are happier together and better together.

:02:43.:02:43.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

:02:44.:02:49.

Well I extend the congratulations of Her Majesty's Government to his

:02:50.:02:56.

parents. And indeed, of the whole of the House of Commons, and I think

:02:57.:03:01.

all the political parties in it. Even of the Scottish National Party

:03:02.:03:06.

on this occasion, they are an example to us all, particularly

:03:07.:03:10.

after 60 year, and I hope that example will be one that will

:03:11.:03:15.

continue to be heeded and respected all over the UK.

:03:16.:03:20.

Mr Speaker, contrary to the previous question, from temperature member

:03:21.:03:27.

from Perth, this campaign has been fraught by fear and intimidation.

:03:28.:03:31.

But is somewhat ironic, Mr Speaker, that the majority of the Scottish

:03:32.:03:37.

separatists, have turned out for today's debate, yet just last fried

:03:38.:03:41.

when we were discussing the important factor of welfare reform,

:03:42.:03:47.

less than half of them turned out to a debate that justified, that

:03:48.:03:53.

justifies their priorities to come here, to whinge rather than debate.

:03:54.:03:59.

I don't think I needed a to the honourable member's description of

:04:00.:04:06.

the Scottish National Party. Mr Scottish pro unionist friends have

:04:07.:04:16.

reminded me that the Middle East peace envoy reportedly said he

:04:17.:04:20.

welcomes the publication of the Chilcott report. Will he tell the

:04:21.:04:25.

House when we can expect the report to be published? I can tell him this

:04:26.:04:31.

work continues, that Lord Chilcott said he intends to publish the

:04:32.:04:35.

report as soon as possible. There is no, I don't have any fixed date I

:04:36.:04:40.

can give to my honourable friend. I will only observer had that inquiry

:04:41.:04:45.

been set up when I and others first called for it and voted for it, in

:04:46.:04:52.

2006, it would have reported long ago. It was set up late, it is

:04:53.:04:58.

therefore reporting late an we look forward to it. Is it acceptable for

:04:59.:05:04.

young people to be fed take away pizza at lunchtime, because the

:05:05.:05:08.

government has failed to prepare schools properly for the

:05:09.:05:12.

introduction of a free nutritious meal? Well, I think to put that into

:05:13.:05:19.

perspective, I think the latest figures are that 98.5% of schools

:05:20.:05:24.

are now providing a hot meal as they were intended to do, to infants,

:05:25.:05:29.

that is going up all the time. There are Government funds of course to

:05:30.:05:33.

help those schools who need new facilities to do so. It think it

:05:34.:05:38.

would be right to welcome the entirety of that picture, rather

:05:39.:05:43.

than trying to find fault with one small aspect of it.

:05:44.:05:53.

STUDIO: It was like Hamlet without the Prince there. It was a bit of a

:05:54.:05:57.

love in as well. Almost as if I am sure this is not the care, almost as

:05:58.:06:02.

if the two frontbenches has choreographed their love for the

:06:03.:06:06.

union and their hatred of Scottish independence as they cooed at each

:06:07.:06:09.

other across the despatch box. Even the backbenchers got in on the act

:06:10.:06:13.

with a lot of anti-independence questions coming from MPs, except

:06:14.:06:18.

from the one Scottish Nationalist who asked a question, we didn't

:06:19.:06:22.

learn anything new, some will have heard the sound of stable doors

:06:23.:06:26.

closing as the horse has already bolted. Let us see what you thought

:06:27.:06:30.

of it There was less of a love in among the viewers. This came from

:06:31.:06:36.

Joan. It is undemocratic to offer more powers after many people have

:06:37.:06:40.

posted their votes. Although it doesn't breach the Edinburgh

:06:41.:06:42.

agreement it does breach the spirit of it. I don't want to be governed

:06:43.:06:47.

by a bunch of Charlatans. This from Alistair. "We in non-Metropolitan

:06:48.:06:53.

England need a concrete plan for real equal devolution, not LEP,

:06:54.:07:00.

grand council or glorified unity authorities but devolution for all.

:07:01.:07:04.

This from Bill. "Leaders have long their reason. Vote no and we will

:07:05.:07:08.

give you more independence. No should mean no. Yes should mean yes.

:07:09.:07:12.

Let us get rid of the Scottish Parliament. If we are better

:07:13.:07:17.

together it is better to have one Parliament." This from Linda. "Let

:07:18.:07:23.

them go. Move air and sea bases to Northumberland, be careful what

:07:24.:07:26.

rights Scots are offered or we will all be up in arms." There we go.

:07:27.:07:32.

Perhaps the most significant intervention came from John red wood

:07:33.:07:37.

hen he asked the question who speaks for England? The English voice has

:07:38.:07:41.

not really by heard in this campaign. It is clear we will hear

:07:42.:07:46.

from England if the vote is yes. If it is no, then in other ways I think

:07:47.:07:50.

we will be hearing from England as well.

:07:51.:07:53.

Any way, the real action was not in the Commons today, it was north of

:07:54.:07:56.

the border, with the Prime Minister being there, the leader of the

:07:57.:08:00.

opposition and the Deputy Prime Minister too. While we were on air

:08:01.:08:05.

David Cameron has been speaking in Edinburgh, to an audience there. Let

:08:06.:08:09.

us have a look at what he has to say.

:08:10.:08:12.

Sometimes because it is an election, a ballot, I think people can feel it

:08:13.:08:18.

is like a general election, that you make a decision and five years later

:08:19.:08:22.

you can make another one, if you are fed up with the Tory, give them a

:08:23.:08:27.

kick and maybe we will think again this is tote definitely represent to

:08:28.:08:31.

a general election this is a decision about not the next five

:08:32.:08:36.

years, it is a decision about the next century. That was the Prime

:08:37.:08:42.

Minister speaking in Scotland. James, this must have been put

:08:43.:08:46.

together at the last minute. It was only yesterday we found out they

:08:47.:08:50.

were going to Scotland. Yes it is. When we spoke to the Prime

:08:51.:08:55.

Minister's spokesman we said when he is going up, we were told in the

:08:56.:08:59.

last week. A decision was clearly taken, I think the moment of change

:09:00.:09:03.

happened on Monday afternoon, after the Prime Minister's statement on

:09:04.:09:07.

NATO. He and Ed Miliband met behind the speaker's chair in the Prime

:09:08.:09:11.

Minister's offices there. They said we have to go up, they hatched this

:09:12.:09:16.

plan to abandon PMQs and go up. Is it last minute? Yes, we saw the

:09:17.:09:21.

Prime Minister not speaking from note, he swiftly moved off those,

:09:22.:09:25.

talking passionately using words we don't normally here from a Prime

:09:26.:09:30.

Minister, but clearly. Not publicly. Trying to inject a bit, this is not

:09:31.:09:35.

just to use his words a chance to have a go at the effing Tories but a

:09:36.:09:40.

wider decision. He was close to tears towards the end I have seen in

:09:41.:09:46.

some reports. We will no doubt see that later. The Prime Minister said

:09:47.:09:50.

in this speech, if Scotland did vote yes he would have to handle the

:09:51.:09:55.

negotiations, up until 2015 when we see the result of the election.

:09:56.:10:00.

Which suggests that he, that sort of reinforces his claim he will not

:10:01.:10:06.

resign, if he loses Scotland. But my sources tell me there is a lot of

:10:07.:10:10.

Tory MPs will want him to resign. There will be some Conservatives who

:10:11.:10:14.

will call for him to go if a yes vote wins. The question to look for

:10:15.:10:19.

is, are those conservative MPs the same ones who called for him to go

:10:20.:10:25.

before or are there news one? If you are a Conservative MP you might be

:10:26.:10:29.

furious, passionate and angry if that is what happen, the loss of the

:10:30.:10:32.

union, you will be thinking what are the best chances for me in 2015? Do

:10:33.:10:39.

they think a divisive leadership contest, is that the best way to do

:10:40.:10:43.

it, or do they try and say, look, this, the Prime Minister has taken

:10:44.:10:47.

the hit, he will be forever known as the Prime Minister who presighed

:10:48.:10:50.

over the loss of the union and hope he goes, you know, at the time of

:10:51.:10:57.

the election. So, he is making very clear, and privately his people made

:10:58.:11:00.

clear he is not going to, because they believe there will be enough

:11:01.:11:04.

people who will say, no, now is not the to lose a Prime Minister,

:11:05.:11:09.

because will not, you will get saying do we want have that

:11:10.:11:12.

uncertainty? Probably not. It is having an effect on your party, the

:11:13.:11:20.

Conservative Party's, standing and reputation, the before this, what

:11:21.:11:24.

you might call the crisis in the friend came up, you were almost

:11:25.:11:27.

getting nip and tuck with Labour, you are seven points behind. There

:11:28.:11:32.

is no appetite among my Conservative colleagues for any change in

:11:33.:11:36.

leadership. It is above party politics. It is not a destroy of

:11:37.:11:39.

strength. David Cameron is our Prime Minister now, he will be ourpm after

:11:40.:11:44.

the friend because there will be huge decisions that have to be

:11:45.:11:48.

taken. The leader of the Conservative and unionist party will

:11:49.:11:52.

have lost the union. Some Tory backbenchers are describing him as

:11:53.:11:56.

the Lord north of the 21st century. The Prime Minister who lost the

:11:57.:12:00.

American colonies. We have provided the opportunity for the people of

:12:01.:12:04.

Scotland to have this discussion, they are taking the decision, it

:12:05.:12:07.

isn't about David Cameron, Ed Miliband or any Westminster

:12:08.:12:10.

politician, it is about what the people of Scotland choose, we want

:12:11.:12:13.

them to make the right decision, which is to stick with the UK. If,

:12:14.:12:21.

is it not something of a crisis for Ed Miliband as well, because the

:12:22.:12:27.

Labour Party has dominated the better together campaign, they have

:12:28.:12:30.

called the shots, we saw that again with Gordon Brown this week, and if

:12:31.:12:35.

it is a yes vote, it will be because Mr Miliband could not convince

:12:36.:12:39.

enough of his own supporters to vote for the union. He couldn't get them

:12:40.:12:44.

out. So therefore, he will go down as being a man who lost the union.

:12:45.:12:48.

We don't know what is going to happen. I am saying if it is a yes

:12:49.:12:53.

vote. This is a distraction, the most serious implication of a yes

:12:54.:12:58.

vote next week is separation of Scotland from a 300-year-old union

:12:59.:13:03.

and a real risk it diminishes our voice in the world, in terms of the

:13:04.:13:10.

UN, we heard from from your report, these are the serious implications

:13:11.:13:15.

of separation. We know that but the men, you know, when China went

:13:16.:13:18.

Communist there was a huge debate who lost China, in America. There

:13:19.:13:23.

are, who lost Iran was a great debate after 1979 and the people in

:13:24.:13:28.

power at the time, have to take some of the responsibility. Now, Mr

:13:29.:13:32.

Cameron is the Prime Minister, so he is the man who would be leader at

:13:33.:13:36.

the time if this was to happen. But we know from the polls that 95% of

:13:37.:13:41.

Scottish Conservatives intend to vote for the union, we also know

:13:42.:13:46.

from the latest polls that maybe 30-35% of Labour voters are going to

:13:47.:13:51.

vote for independence. Now that is pure surely a major problem for Ed

:13:52.:13:56.

Miliband. We don't know yet how the voters are going to vote. We won't

:13:57.:14:01.

know until polling day. We have seen the trends. Why prematurely engage

:14:02.:14:05.

in a blame game. We don't know what is going to happen. What is

:14:06.:14:09.

important is we make the arguments, that Scotland should stay within the

:14:10.:14:13.

family of nation, for all the positive reasons but we outline the

:14:14.:14:18.

risks and to be frank I think this is a bit of a distraction, having a

:14:19.:14:24.

potential blame game scenario, it trikes me as... The better together

:14:25.:14:28.

campaign was about 20 points ahead and it is closed. Who is to blame

:14:29.:14:33.

for that? There has been a significant percentage of people in

:14:34.:14:37.

Scotland who are undecided. Now, according to a poll yesterday there

:14:38.:14:40.

are still 20% of people, that is a massive number of people, one in

:14:41.:14:44.

five people in Scotland still undecided. There is still all to

:14:45.:14:49.

play for, you know, the polls were always going to narrow. The better

:14:50.:14:53.

together campaign has been ahead for the last weeks and month, it was

:14:54.:14:56.

always going to be closer to the time of the referendum, I really

:14:57.:14:59.

think you know discussion about David Cameron's future and Ed

:15:00.:15:02.

Miliband's future is a distraction. When the focus should be on the real

:15:03.:15:06.

issue at hand which is what will happen to Scotland, and the rest of

:15:07.:15:11.

us, if they vote for separation. I understand we are a week away from a

:15:12.:15:14.

referendum in which the polls are nip and tuck. It is only right that

:15:15.:15:17.

the rest of the United Kingdom should start to think more than it

:15:18.:15:21.

has, about the consequences of a yes vote, so let me ask another question

:15:22.:15:26.

along these line, if it is a yes vote should the general election in

:15:27.:15:30.

May be postpones. I don't see a clear reason why. Why

:15:31.:15:43.

should Scotland get to vote if it has already voted to depart the

:15:44.:15:46.

United Kingdom? I think we continue as business so far, work that is set

:15:47.:15:52.

back in primary legislation, you need to come act of Parliament and

:15:53.:15:54.

reworked the legislation to do that. The simplest thing is you

:15:55.:15:59.

press ahead and at the point in 2016 if Scotland does vote yes for

:16:00.:16:03.

independence, that is the point the Scottish MPs, we lose them from

:16:04.:16:07.

Westminster. You could be in a position of Labour forming the next

:16:08.:16:11.

government, only because of the 40 or so MPs cut from Scotland. MPs

:16:12.:16:16.

will be temporary, will be leaving with Independence Day on 2016. That

:16:17.:16:22.

would make you a government of the walking wounded right from the

:16:23.:16:26.

start. Under the eyes of the English, illegitimate. Firstly, I

:16:27.:16:30.

think there is no question that we could go beyond a parliament of five

:16:31.:16:33.

years. I think, if I'm right in saying, that would not be

:16:34.:16:36.

constitutional, and it certainly would set a kind of dangerous

:16:37.:16:41.

precedent for elections in the future. And secondly, we just simply

:16:42.:16:44.

don't know what's going to happen next week. Obviously, I hope that we

:16:45.:16:50.

win the general election next year with a significant majority. This is

:16:51.:16:55.

kind of uncharted territory, in terms of the what ifs and the

:16:56.:17:00.

wherefores. Until we know what happens on Thursday next week, I'm

:17:01.:17:04.

not sure this is where the date is at. Westminster, that YouGov poll

:17:05.:17:13.

has concentrated minds in Westminster and they are now

:17:14.:17:15.

thinking about the consequences of this. For example, if Mr Miliband

:17:16.:17:19.

wins the next general election in 2015, I would suggest he could not

:17:20.:17:24.

appoint a Scottish minister in any department because every government

:17:25.:17:27.

department will be involved in setting up the rest of the UK's

:17:28.:17:31.

divorce terms, so you can't put the other side on your side. That will

:17:32.:17:36.

have to be decided by legislation. It is very clear the negotiating

:17:37.:17:40.

teams on both sides will have to be specifically set out, and that...

:17:41.:17:47.

You say Westminster is waking up, and yet the most astonishing thing

:17:48.:17:51.

is that Westminster and Whitehall have not made contingency plans.

:17:52.:17:56.

Whenever I am told this, I say, surely not, but all these officials

:17:57.:18:01.

say they are not doing it, even the Cabinet Secretary said before

:18:02.:18:02.

Parliamentary committee this week we have not done it because we have

:18:03.:18:06.

been told by our political masters not to do it. And yet, if a Yes vote

:18:07.:18:13.

is successful, there are hundreds of questions about how you and stitch

:18:14.:18:17.

Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom. What happens to all the

:18:18.:18:20.

civil servants who work for the UK in Scotland, what happens to the

:18:21.:18:23.

civil servants who work in England or Wales or Northern Ireland for

:18:24.:18:27.

Scotland? Do they lose their jobs, do they have to move anywhere? On

:18:28.:18:30.

top of all the other issues we have talked about, currency and defence,

:18:31.:18:35.

they're all of those issues too, and yet there is no contingency plan for

:18:36.:18:39.

that matters the most extraordinary thing about this. If there is a Yes

:18:40.:18:43.

vote, they will be very busy from the early hours of 19 September

:18:44.:18:44.

onwards. Until 2016. Now, as the general election looms,

:18:45.:18:49.

all the parties are desperately trying to raise enough cash to

:18:50.:18:51.

finance their campaigns. At the 2010 general election,

:18:52.:18:54.

parties spent more than ?31 million on the campaigns, and this was down

:18:55.:18:56.

from the 2005 general election, But how do party officials persuade

:18:57.:18:59.

people to part with their cash, and is it always done

:19:00.:19:04.

for the right reasons? Here's the journalist Alice Thomson

:19:05.:19:06.

with her soapbox on why we need state funding

:19:07.:19:08.

for our political parties. We all enjoy a nice lunch,

:19:09.:19:22.

but it seems politicians, especially our leaders, are being forced to

:19:23.:19:24.

eat more than the rest of us. Leading figures across all parties

:19:25.:19:28.

are expected to wine and dine influential businessmen

:19:29.:19:30.

and celebrities, in order to try to It's time we looked at alternatives

:19:31.:19:33.

- not least because of our In smart restaurants

:19:34.:19:39.

and boardrooms across London, We have Labour cosying up to

:19:40.:19:43.

the unions. Since Ed Miliband became leader,

:19:44.:19:49.

they've provided ?8 out of every The Tories host balls

:19:50.:19:53.

and auctions to win a drink with the Chancellor or a tennis match

:19:54.:19:58.

with the Prime Minister. In the first three months of this

:19:59.:20:00.

year, they raised ?6.6 million. As next year's general election

:20:01.:20:03.

looms, all the parties need to raise enough cash to pay for

:20:04.:20:06.

their general election campaigns. It's not enough to have

:20:07.:20:08.

a manifesto and candidates, So instead of focusing ideas,

:20:09.:20:10.

they are wasting time and energy on entertaining rich potential

:20:11.:20:15.

donors desperate for influence The solution is state funding

:20:16.:20:18.

of political parties. Spending limits should be cut

:20:19.:20:26.

and donations capped. Parties would then be forced to

:20:27.:20:28.

concentrate After all, there are more people

:20:29.:20:30.

signing up to the Caravan Club But they refuse to do this,

:20:31.:20:36.

worried that voters will recoil at having to pay more

:20:37.:20:44.

for the antics of this venal lot. They should find

:20:45.:20:47.

the courage to make their case. The Queen costs each

:20:48.:20:49.

taxpayer 56 pence a year. In return,

:20:50.:20:53.

we don't have to worry, she is and dining people for a stack

:20:54.:20:55.

of cash, to keep the show on road. That should be the example

:20:56.:20:59.

for all our politicians. Alice Thomson joins us now from that

:21:00.:21:05.

rather swanky restaurant. Are you saying that politics rarely is that

:21:06.:21:09.

correct, that is the only way to clean it out, to have state funding?

:21:10.:21:14.

It's not that it's corrupt, it is just that they waste an awful amount

:21:15.:21:19.

of time wining and dining, and have the Prime Minister spending that

:21:20.:21:22.

amount of time is a waste. It is the same with the unions, they are far

:21:23.:21:26.

too influential. It is not exactly corrupt but I think the worst it

:21:27.:21:29.

probably gets is that there are so many peers in the House of Lords who

:21:30.:21:32.

have given money to one of the parties. I just don't like that, I

:21:33.:21:35.

would prefer to give the money myself actually. I would not mind

:21:36.:21:41.

spending 40p a year. Dare I say it come you may be alone or in a very

:21:42.:21:45.

small minority, because generally people just don't want to give money

:21:46.:21:48.

in that way to the funding of political parties. It is not in

:21:49.:21:53.

fashion. It is not in fashion because of the ways MPs have

:21:54.:21:57.

behaved, but that is not to say it is wrong. I actually think it would

:21:58.:21:59.

rarely help politics and it would clean it up, and then you would get

:22:00.:22:03.

better people in the House of Lords, and also you would get the

:22:04.:22:06.

politicians concentrating on the right issues. I don't want them to

:22:07.:22:09.

spend a lot of time with very rich people and unions, I would like them

:22:10.:22:12.

to spend a lot of time with more normal people, campaigning and being

:22:13.:22:16.

in their constituency. But even if there was some state funding, even

:22:17.:22:20.

if people did give donations or there was more money coming from

:22:21.:22:24.

individual electors, wouldn't that still go on? Wouldn't there be

:22:25.:22:31.

wining and dining anyway? You're not going to end that whole industry in

:22:32.:22:34.

itself with state funding. I think they would be lobbying, but it would

:22:35.:22:39.

be more lobbying campaigns, and it would not be individual very rich

:22:40.:22:42.

people and the unions having much more sway than they would be able to

:22:43.:22:47.

have if the money was not involved. And you would get better people in

:22:48.:22:51.

the House of Lords. Stephen Crabb, are you convinced by that argument?

:22:52.:22:56.

I'm not. Alice herself said we do not have a corrupt system in the UK,

:22:57.:23:01.

actually the UK has one of the best systems are financing the business

:23:02.:23:04.

of politics. In Germany for example, you have a large amount of state

:23:05.:23:07.

funding and that does not tackle all the problems there either. The

:23:08.:23:12.

public would say what about MPs expenses, cash the question is, what

:23:13.:23:16.

about MPs being secretly filmed by your colleagues. That does say there

:23:17.:23:20.

is a level of corruption that might not be there with state funding. And

:23:21.:23:25.

all of that has led to improvements in the system, greater

:23:26.:23:26.

transparency, greater accountability, so the system is

:23:27.:23:30.

getting better. We need to go further, we need to have a cap on

:23:31.:23:33.

donations, screen out some of the wrong influence there is a system

:23:34.:23:37.

but we are getting better. It is an easy thing to knock your own

:23:38.:23:40.

political system but it is an awful lot better than so many others out

:23:41.:23:46.

there. As a party, we feel it should fall around ?50,000, the cap, we

:23:47.:23:50.

think that is an acceptable limit in somebody wanting to donate their own

:23:51.:23:54.

money they have turned to a political party. Do you ever think

:23:55.:23:58.

there will be state funding introduced? Wane ever ever? Let's

:23:59.:24:05.

talk about the next few elections. Certainly not in the foreseeable

:24:06.:24:09.

future. I think there is still a lack of trust in politicians,

:24:10.:24:17.

unfortunately. The MPs expenses scandal looms large. I am very

:24:18.:24:20.

synthetic to what Alice says. In terms of House of Lords, there is a

:24:21.:24:27.

much simpler solution, have an elected House of Lords to get around

:24:28.:24:31.

this phenomenon new speak about. I would certainly -- that you speak

:24:32.:24:35.

about. I would like to see a cap on donations, I think 50 grand is far

:24:36.:24:40.

too high. I do access the argument that politicians are spending quite

:24:41.:24:44.

a bit of time raising this kind of money. But, unfortunately, I think

:24:45.:24:49.

you have outlined, Jo, the public appetite, and I'm sure we will get a

:24:50.:24:52.

lot of responsiveness on Twitter, it is not really there for state

:24:53.:24:56.

funding. A lot of responsiveness on Twitter, it is not really there for

:24:57.:24:59.

state funding. It doesn't sound like more pay, but what I'm saying is

:25:00.:25:04.

what we will give you is more money for your party for you to do that so

:25:05.:25:08.

you can concentrate on all the potent issues. We are not saying we

:25:09.:25:14.

want more pay, let's be clear about that. The authority have told us. I

:25:15.:25:22.

think they are wrong, because in the public sector for example... But you

:25:23.:25:24.

haven't got a say in it, do you? This morning has brought

:25:25.:25:31.

an announcement of an important new line up; no, it's not

:25:32.:25:33.

the starting XI for this Saturday's Arsenal squad, it is, of course, the

:25:34.:25:36.

role allocations for Jean Claude Lord Hill is the British

:25:37.:25:39.

representative So let's take

:25:40.:25:42.

a look at what he ended up with, It is not quite a key job at the

:25:43.:26:05.

moment. There are other more important jobs. The economic one was

:26:06.:26:09.

one that Britain might have got, the internal market as well.

:26:10.:26:14.

The top economics position goes to Pierre Moscovici,

:26:15.:26:16.

a French Socialist, who will now be responsible for EU economic policy.

:26:17.:26:24.

This will pose questions about the EU's approach to deficit

:26:25.:26:27.

This particularly now that the French manners in there, perhaps

:26:28.:26:38.

Brussels won't be as strong on deficit reduction as it was before.

:26:39.:26:40.

Here's what Juncker had to say earlier this morning.

:26:41.:26:44.

We are at the beginning of a new commission. We have an exceptional

:26:45.:26:53.

opportunity, but also an obligation to make a fresh start and get down

:26:54.:26:59.

to work to address the very difficult geopolitical situation, to

:27:00.:27:04.

strengthen the economic recovery, and to build a united Europe that

:27:05.:27:09.

delivers jobs and growth to its citizens. I think I have the right

:27:10.:27:18.

team to do so. That was Jean-Claude Juncker, joining me now from

:27:19.:27:21.

Brussels a la Europe correspondent, Chris Morris. How did Jonathan Hill

:27:22.:27:26.

actually get that job? We didn't think he would get any of the top

:27:27.:27:30.

jobs, certainly not in financial services. The joke was he would be

:27:31.:27:34.

in charge of multilingualism, but David Cameron has pushed hard to get

:27:35.:27:40.

a senior economic job, and I think if you had offered Downing Street

:27:41.:27:44.

the job of Commissioner in charge of financial stability and financial

:27:45.:27:47.

services six weeks ago is they would bitten your hand. It involves

:27:48.:27:51.

supervision of banks and other matters which really affect the City

:27:52.:27:55.

of London, so I think what it is as quite a big olive branch, if you

:27:56.:27:59.

like, from Jean-Claude Juncker, because don't forget it was only a

:28:00.:28:01.

couple of months ago that Cameron said he was absolutely the wrong man

:28:02.:28:05.

for the job. And I don't think the Juncker team have forgotten that

:28:06.:28:13.

level of criticism. But they have put it to one side to get on with

:28:14.:28:16.

business. We are almost running out of time.

:28:17.:28:18.

There's just time to put you out of your misery, and give you

:28:19.:28:21.

All that rotting rubbish and the strikes should have been enough. It

:28:22.:28:29.

was also the year of the referendum on Scottish devolution, that was the

:28:30.:28:33.

one they lost, they won the 197, the Jeremy Thorpe trial, Stephen, you

:28:34.:28:41.

get to press the buzzer. And the winner

:28:42.:28:49.

The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.

:28:50.:28:53.

I'm off to Scotland for a special This Week live from Edinburgh,

:28:54.:28:57.

then I'll stay in Auld Reekie for a Daily Politics special on Friday.

:28:58.:29:00.

But don't worry, I'll be back here at noon tomorrow with all the

:29:01.:29:03.

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn with live coverage of Prime Minister's Questions and the latest on the campaign for and against Scottish independence. With the party leaders in Scotland, leader of the house William Hague stands in for David Cameron at the dispatch box, with Ed Miliband represented by deputy Harriet Harman.

Andrew and Jo are joined by Wales secretary Stephen Crabb and shadow housing minister Emma Reynolds.

The Guess the Year competition closes during the live broadcast of this programme.


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