10/09/2014 Daily Politics


10/09/2014

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Morning folks, and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Just eight days to go until the people of Scotland decide whether or

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The fate of the 300-year-old union hangs in the balance,

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with polls suggesting the Yes and No campaigns are neck-and-neck.

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The Prime Minister makes an impassioned plea for Scots to

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He's cancelled his normal question time appearance,

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along with the other main party leaders, to head north to Scotland.

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Alex Salmond says the No campaign is falling apart at the seams.

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But with fresh warnings from the Governor of the Bank

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of England, and as investors continue to take fright, can the Yes

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With Messrs Cameron and Miliband off to Scotland, it'll be Hague

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We'll have all the action and expert analysis live at midday.

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And the journalist Alice Thomson says it's time to end the culture

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of politicians wining and dining with big donors.

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The Queen costs each taxpayer 56 pence a year. In return, we don't

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have to worry, she is wining and dining people, for a stack of cash

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to keep the show on the road. That should be the example for all our

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All that in the next 90 minutes, and with us for the whole of the

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programme today, the new Secretary of State for Wales, Stephen Crabb,

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and the Shadow Housing Minister, Emma Reynolds. Welcome to you both.

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Now, it's Wednesday, and usually that means we'd be gearing up for

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our weekly bout of verbal pugilism between the Prime Minister and the

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Leader of the Opposition. But wait - what's that? They're not going to be

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there? Why? The referendum? Yes, that's right. Messrs Cameron and

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Miliband have agreed to suspend hostilities in order to campaign in

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Scotland. They've even taken Nick Clegg with them - probably to carry

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their bags. Actually, I jest. The leaders aren't travelling together,

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and they certainly won't be sharing any stages.Yes, the Prime Minister

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and they certainly won't be sharing any stages. Yes, the Prime Minister

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is doing a Q in Edinburgh this morning with voters, Nick Clegg will

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be visiting an energy company in Selkirk at lunchtime, and Ed

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Miliband will be making a speech this afternoon in Glasgow. A short

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while ago, I spoke to our political correspondent, Norman Smith, just

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before he went in to hear the Prime Minister speak.

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It is a huge gamble by the three main unionist parties but it

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reflects the fact that the polls have tightened, they know they have

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to step up the intensity of their campaign and they have to try and

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seize the initiative, which is why they have taken the decision to set

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aside Prime Minister's Questions and make the case for the union, we will

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see the tone of the campaign changing. There has been criticism

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too much has been focussed on the economy, sterling and now there is

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to be a conscious effort to make a more emotional case to the people of

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Scotland, to site family, to reframe the argument, but it is a huge, huge

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gamble. The gamble is this, that they come up here and are seen as

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the Westminster elite, coming up to Scotland, to lecture the Scots at

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the very last gasp of this referendum campaign, that is the

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narrative we have been hearing from Alex Salmond, who insists it is a

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last minute panic measure and it might backfire, because if you look

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at their ratings, north of the border, let us be candid, David

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Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg are not highly regarded here. They

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advertise the fact they are the Westminster party, and that

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reinforces Alex Salmond's case, that Scotland would be better governing

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itself. O so it is a big risk and a big move by the three main party

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leaders. Norman Smith there let us pick up on

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that point. Aren't you playing into Alex Salmond's hands? He has said he

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will pay for the bus fares for all of them to travel up. Not at all. We

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knew the last days of the campaign would feel very intense indeed. We

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knew that the polls were tightening. You didn't think they would be this

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tight, did you? That is is right for the party leaders to make a stand,

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to go to Scotland and say this matters. Tell people of Scotland how

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much we want them to stick with the family, stick with the family of

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nations. You look cynical at this point, why wasn't it done before? It

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is only because the polls have shown one or two of them that they are

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tied the or the yes campaign is slightly ahead, that there is what

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looks like a desperate attempt to make appeal to Scottish voters?

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David Cameron has been going back and forward to Scotland since he

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became Prime Minister, speaking from his head and heart about why he

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wants Scotland to stick with the family of nations that is the United

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Kingdom. He isn't popular in Scotland, so could it make it worse?

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. I don't believe it will make it worse, I think it is a really

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important step that the party leaders take, today, it is not

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uncommon for the Prime Minister to miss PMQs for extraordinary

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occasion, this is an extraordinary momentous moment nor the United

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Kingdom. What difference is Ed Miliband going to make, bear in mind

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they have had to ask Gordon Brown, a previous Labour Prime Minister to

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step in to save the union? It is right that the three party leaders

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are up in Scotland. We expected all along the polls would narrow. One

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poll suggested that 20% of people have not made up their minds, so it

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is right that politicians across the political spectrum are there and

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Gordon Brown, a towering figure in British politics and Scottish

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politics has been involved in the campaign for quite some time, and

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again, it is unsurprising that he has started to come Pape more

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intensely in the last couple of weeks. Looking now, xue excuse me,

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Stephen crab, do you think there should have been another question on

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the ballot paper, that promised more powers to Scotland, in the event of

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a no vote? No, the decision that the people Scott land are taking is a

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complicated one, a difficult one. Having a choice between independence

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or remaining part of the UK... Was that the wrong decision? Would we be

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in this situation if there had been another choice on the ballot paper?

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It is difficult presented with that. There is a strong appetite within

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Scotland for more decision making to be taken within the boundaries of

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Scotland, the parties at Westminster are united in saying we are going to

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meet that appetite. But it is right for the people Scott land to make

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this decision whether they want to stick with the United Kingdom, stick

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with the family of nations or to go it alone as independents. Let us

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One of the things Mr Cameron et al will be talking about

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while they're north of the border will be more devolution as

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Yesterday, the leaders of the Scottish

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Conservatives, Labour and Liberal Democrats stood on a joint platform

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to offer the Scots further powers if they vote No next Thursday.

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They hope this will be enough to dissuade people from voting

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The Yes Campaign says it's just a last minute panicky bribe.

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Stewart Hosie is deputy leader of the SNP group in Westminster, and

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Given all the uncertainties that are associated with independence, would

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it not be better to keep the certainty of the union, and all the

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extra devolutionary powers that are being promised to you? No, because

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the certainty with independence is that the Scottish people will have

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all of the power in their hands. The Scottish Government elected

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democratically, it will take all the decisions. When we talk about

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uncertainty, we have had this week Gordon Brown, our backbench Labour

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MP making a promise he can't keep, expecting the Scottish people to

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believe a Tory Government will implement a Labour plan. The weakest

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of the three plans on offer from the three unionist parties. I think the

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First Minister is correct. It this is a last ditch panic move. It is

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desperation at the heart of the no camp. Nobody is buying it. If you

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accept more Home Rule, Scotland's position in the EU, that is firm,

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its position in NATO, that is firm, monetary union with the rest of the

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United Kingdom, that is guaranteed. Independence, you can't guarantee

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any of these things, that is uncertain. I know I have made the

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case as to why a currency union is in the best interest of Scotland and

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the rest of the UK. You can't guarantee it. . I am certain that

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the arguments we have laid out, in terms of the currency are correct.

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There is not a serious commentator thinks we will be outside of the EU.

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I think the language that was used is Scotland be treated as a special

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and unique case. It could take time. It is not seamless, you party used

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to say it was automatic, the you wouldn't even have to apply again,

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you would remain a member of the EU. We although that is not the case

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now, it is uncertain. Andrew, I think it is the case that because

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there is no provision to pebbling a state or part of a state -- expel

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where there will be negotiation, they will be from the inside. You

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know, there are no more uncertainties with independence as

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there are risks as staying part of the union, this is a union with ?1.5

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trillion worth of debt. When the main parties travel to Scotland to

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tell the Scottish people what they can't do, they can't be seen to be

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photographed together. No-one is taking this seriously. The most

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serious point if there isn't uncertainty ant independence, why

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are investors pulling their cash out of Scotland, sinsing is on exit

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clauses in commercial property deals and the value of sterling is

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falling? That sounds like uncertainty. . In terms of sterling

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we saw a 1% dip two days ago, that has happened 16 times in the last

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year against the euro. Can I just point out against the dollar,

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sterling only a month ago was 1.72, it is now 1.61. That is a big fall.

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There are many reasons why currency prices change. I think to put all of

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that at the door of Scottish independence is wrong. To be honest,

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the smart commentators are suggesting as much of this is to do

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with the lack of preparedness of the UK government than independence

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itself. In terms of the stock price, if you look at Scotland's lives

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company, apart from cairn which has share problems unrelated to

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independence, their rise since the no campaign was at peak last

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September, it was 4.7%, that is against a 3.7% average for the FTSE

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100. It is wrong to suggest share prices are falling, because of

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independence. Except it was largely on Scottish prices that the big

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share prices fell. Why are investors pulling their money out of Scotland?

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Why are they moving their bank accounts south? The FTSE is down 1%

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already, that is across the entire inDerek this is not to do with

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Scottish independence. Why are people pulling their money out of

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Scotland? I have heard this scare story from our opponents many time.

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You know and I know over the past two years as the debate has

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happened, yes I have we have taken the lead, investment in Scotland,

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massive investment, not least the 14 billion of investment in the North

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Sea last year. It is wrong to say people are pulling out of Scotland

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at and it is wrong four our political Pope innocents to be

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spooking the market in this way. You say, just before I bring in our

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studio guests. A Scottish investment fund, we have moved hundreds of

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millions south of border, on the record. Another firm in Edinburgh.

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We have moved our bank account south. Resident commercial property

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investors now insisting on exit clauses should Scotland vote yes.

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That is uncertainty. It is on uncertainty if it is talked up.

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There are lots of reason to put an exit clause in deal if you think it

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might not go through. Doing it before? We are certain and I am sure

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the smart investors know this very well, that I will be huge

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opportunities in an ind Scotland, a country with a fundamentally robust

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economy, with huge plans to grow the economy, to create more wealth. I

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think investors will be flocking to Scotland to take advantage of the

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opportunities after the 19th September. I want you to listen to

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what our studio guests are saying. I will come back for a brief reaction

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from you. Why did Labour, which is basically calling the shots in this,

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in the no campaign, why did it wait to offer this new Home Rule package

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after all the postal votes had been cast? Well, Ed Miliband's been

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talking about further devolution for some time. You didn't spell it out

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until the postal votes had been cashed. The only conclusion is you

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are panicking The three party leaders have decided there should be

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further devolution of tax powers in addition to all the other powers the

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Scottish Parliament has. You are not going to take them way, are you.

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There has been a significant devolution of powers already in the

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time that we were in Government, and I think it is right now, in the

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closing weeks of campaign, that there is further clarity on the

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timetable. Let us have some clarity. Give us collarly. What extra tax

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powers will the Scottish Parliament get? We have talked about further

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devolution of income tax, obviously the details of that will need to

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be... You can't give clarity on what the details would be or a broad

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strategic description of what the income tax powers would be? There

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would be significantly more powers. What does that mean And that the tax

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now paid into the Treasury would go into Scottish coffers and there

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would be more control over that for the Scottish Parliament. How much

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income tax would be devolved? Detail would need to be worked out. Surely

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the people of Scotland are being asked to vote on their future, there

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is two alternative, one is clear, it is independence and they can take

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out a view on that. The alternative is not the status quo. We have been

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clear about that. You are saying further devolution, Gordon Brown

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calls it Home Rule. Don't the people of Scotland have a right to know

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what that would mean in terms of income tax, VAT, would the taxation

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on oil be devolved to Scotland? We have talked about the devolution of

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housing benefit. The devolution of income tax. I think it is very clear

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that there will be further devolution of power and I think that

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is right. I understand that but you promised clarity and I am not

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getting it. Will that taxation of oil be

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devolved? That is one of the things that will need to be worked out. I

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know that, I would like you to tell me will it all wanted or don't you

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know? The powers being put forward will fundamentally change the fiscal

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equation for Scotland. It will be a situation where most of its money

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gets handed down from Westminster and all they can decide to do is how

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they spend it to actually taking responsibility for raising when most

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of them may themselves. Whether that's from energy resources, or

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from income tax, corporation tax. So a home ruled Scotland would have its

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own powers over the taxation of oil would go to the Edinburgh

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parliament? We are not saying that exactly. You said taxation over

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energy policy. I said there were a lot of resources available from

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which governments can raise money, and what Scotland will get is a huge

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swathe of new powers, giving it responsible to the raising most of

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its money and then deciding how to spend it. That changes fundamentally

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the devolution equation for Scotland. Or are you hitting the

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panic button because you are about to lose the referendum? You say most

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taxation powers would be in Scotland. All the figures I have

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seen, whether you take the rather reluctant devolution of the Labour

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Party or the more enthusiastic devolution of your party is that

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actually about 40% of revenues raised in Scotland would go to the

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Scottish parliament. That's not most. Most income tax raised will be

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the responsibility. Income tax will become the responsibility of the

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Scottish Government. Do you agree that most income tax should be

:17:37.:17:40.

raised in Scotland? I think the decisions about text have wider

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implications for the rest of the union, and in that sense it is

:17:44.:17:46.

absolutely right. The direction of travel has been set, but the further

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detail needs to be considered with care and attention. But not by next

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Thursday, correct? Scots will have to vote blind on this matter. We

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have said income tax to a certain extent will be devolved and there

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will be further tax raising powers for the Scottish parliament. The

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direction of travel is clear. It is just the actual destination is not

:18:09.:18:13.

clear. Stewart Hosie, I will come back to you for the final word. A

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huge open goal in front of you? Reign just be serious for a second,

:18:19.:18:23.

the Scottish Government just a 600 page white paper, detail, questions,

:18:24.:18:26.

answers, everything, massive amount of detail. We can't even get a clear

:18:27.:18:33.

answer from Unionist parties about the proportion of income tax that

:18:34.:18:35.

will be devolved or if any other taxes will be devolved. It is simply

:18:36.:18:41.

not good enough, it is the bag of a -- back of a fag packet calculation.

:18:42.:18:47.

I can't wait till next Thursday. Neither can I, probably for

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different reasons. It's just that I'm working, you will be spectating.

:18:51.:18:53.

Stewart Hosie, thanks for joining us.

:18:54.:18:58.

We've heard plenty over the last few months and weeks about what Scottish

:18:59.:19:01.

independence would mean for Scotland - but what about the rest of the UK?

:19:02.:19:05.

What would a Yes vote next Thursday mean for people in England,

:19:06.:19:08.

Alex Salmond has said an independent Scotland would remove Trident

:19:09.:19:16.

nuclear sub Marines from their current base on the Clyde by 2020,

:19:17.:19:21.

leaving the rest of the UK with an expensive relocation bill. UK

:19:22.:19:24.

defence spending without Scotland would be reduced by 10%. Without

:19:25.:19:30.

Scotland, UK's role in the world could also change will stop if it is

:19:31.:19:34.

seen as less influential, United Kingdom would not be up to retain

:19:35.:19:40.

her permanent suit -- seat on the UN Security Council. Whether Scotland

:19:41.:19:46.

will be allowed to keep the pound would have an impact on the money

:19:47.:19:50.

markets. There will also be tough negotiation about how much of the

:19:51.:19:53.

national debt Scotland agrees to take on. Without Scotland, the rest

:19:54.:19:58.

of the UK's GDP would be about 8% smaller than now and the Westminster

:19:59.:20:02.

Treasury would take a hit from the loss of North Sea revenues fostered

:20:03.:20:06.

but some economists argue GDP per may actually increase in England,

:20:07.:20:11.

Wales and Northern Ireland and Scotland's average expenditure per

:20:12.:20:16.

person is ?1300 higher than the UK average. Politically, there is talk

:20:17.:20:20.

of a constitutional crisis. There could be cause for the Prime

:20:21.:20:24.

Minister and other party leaders to resign. An early general election

:20:25.:20:28.

could be triggered before Christmas. If the May 2015 election does go

:20:29.:20:33.

ahead, then any MPs elected in Scotland would only serve until the

:20:34.:20:36.

proposed Independence Day in March 2016. So if Labour is elected by a

:20:37.:20:43.

small majority, or there is a hung parliament, we could face another

:20:44.:20:48.

general election in 2016, once the 59 Scottish MPs are taken out of the

:20:49.:20:55.

equation. Let's look at some of the implications, if there is a yes vote

:20:56.:21:03.

next week, or even if there is not. A lot more home rule on offer for

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Scotland. Gordon Brown calls at home rule. Why shouldn't Wales have it?

:21:08.:21:12.

There isn't the appetite in Wales for independence, we know that.

:21:13.:21:15.

Devolution has worked in Wales, in the sense that it has killed off in

:21:16.:21:19.

the Tennents as a movement within Wales but what I believe is that the

:21:20.:21:24.

appetite for decision making within national borders, Wales, Northern

:21:25.:21:28.

Ireland and Scotland, that appetite should be met. So there should be

:21:29.:21:33.

more devolution of power to Wales? There will be in future if that's

:21:34.:21:37.

what the public opinion once. But are you in favour of it? I am

:21:38.:21:42.

open-minded about how devolution progresses in Wales. The important

:21:43.:21:46.

thing is that we need stability and a constitutional setup that helps

:21:47.:21:50.

foster unity rather than division. You once said devolution was as big

:21:51.:21:55.

a threat to this country as uncontrolled immigration, why do you

:21:56.:22:00.

want more of it? I was one of a great number of people in Wales who

:22:01.:22:04.

felt that devolution was a very risky path to go down, 12 years ago.

:22:05.:22:10.

It could cause huge and permanent damage to our country? In that time,

:22:11.:22:15.

devolution has worked in Wales, it has fostered unity and I think it's

:22:16.:22:18.

right. Every time the people of Wales when they asked you want more

:22:19.:22:22.

or less devolution, they say more please, but we don't want

:22:23.:22:26.

independence. Would a future Conservative government, if you win

:22:27.:22:33.

the election next year, will you give Wales more devolved powers?

:22:34.:22:36.

It's happening anyway. We have a bill going through Parliament which,

:22:37.:22:39.

for the first time, gives taxation powers to Wales. They are banking

:22:40.:22:45.

that, that's going through now. Will there be more, as a result of all

:22:46.:22:48.

the power unspecified in some areas that you are planning to give to

:22:49.:22:53.

Scotland, will there be more for Wales as well? If the appetite is

:22:54.:22:57.

therefore more powers, and Carl Wyn Jones has said he does not

:22:58.:22:59.

necessarily believe that Wales should have exactly the kind of

:23:00.:23:03.

devolution settlement Scotland, so it is not a case of whether Wales

:23:04.:23:08.

should have the same... I didn't ask that, I simply asked if there would

:23:09.:23:12.

be more? I said yes, Wales is getting more. Would that be true

:23:13.:23:19.

under Labour too? It is important to talk about devolution in England. We

:23:20.:23:24.

will come to that in a second, but let me sign off on the Wales

:23:25.:23:28.

question, would a future Labour government devolved more power to

:23:29.:23:32.

the Welsh Parliament or a semi? I think the Welsh assembly has already

:23:33.:23:36.

got a number of powers. We know that, but would it get more? I am

:23:37.:23:42.

not entirely confident that there is appetite for significantly more

:23:43.:23:46.

devolution of powers in Wales full stop let's come on to England, 85%

:23:47.:23:50.

of the United Kingdom by population. If Scotland is to get a

:23:51.:23:55.

lot more power, including almost complete control over its divest it

:23:56.:23:58.

affairs and substantial taxation powers, does that not mean that you

:23:59.:24:03.

have to answer the West Lothian question, that Scottish MPs cannot

:24:04.:24:07.

vote on English only matters? I think what is an important question

:24:08.:24:11.

is actually more so what does it mean in terms of the centralised

:24:12.:24:15.

nature of our country? We are more centralised than many other European

:24:16.:24:21.

countries. Why don't you devolve and have an English only Parliament

:24:22.:24:24.

Sundays in the Commons when Scottish and Welsh MPs can't vote on English

:24:25.:24:28.

matters? What it actually points to is that we need to devolved powers,

:24:29.:24:32.

responsibilities and perhaps resource, which we have talked about

:24:33.:24:35.

in recent months, to local authorities in England that come

:24:36.:24:38.

together and work together. That is, for me, a more significant move, in

:24:39.:24:44.

terms of devolution. Why would it be right for a Scottish MP, who under

:24:45.:24:48.

the Gordon Brown scheme that you signed up to, would have no say

:24:49.:24:55.

whatsoever over domestic Scottish matters, or over income tax, why

:24:56.:24:59.

should that Scottish MP have any say over England's domestic matters?

:25:00.:25:04.

Because there will still be domestic affairs we continue together and I

:25:05.:25:08.

believe in the integration of the UK Parliament. If this Scottish MP has

:25:09.:25:13.

no say over Scottish education or how it is to be funded, why should

:25:14.:25:18.

he or she have a vote over English education, which doesn't affect its

:25:19.:25:22.

constituency? We already have that situation, and I do think it is

:25:23.:25:26.

important that the body politic that sits in Westminster, that represents

:25:27.:25:30.

every corner of our family of nations, have the same rights. Is it

:25:31.:25:36.

conceivable that you can agree to all this extra devolution for

:25:37.:25:41.

Scotland without coming up for something with England as well, that

:25:42.:25:46.

allows English MPs... Alex Salmond says constantly the Scots should

:25:47.:25:50.

decide their own future. When will the English be allowed to decide

:25:51.:25:54.

their own domestic affairs without Scottish or Welsh MPs voting on the

:25:55.:25:59.

same issues? I don't think it is conceivable to devolve this new

:26:00.:26:03.

suite of powers to Scotland and leave the constitutional settlement

:26:04.:26:06.

affecting Northern Ireland, Wales and England in tact. You think there

:26:07.:26:12.

has to be a UK... Absolutely, there needs to be a UK wide response. Yes,

:26:13.:26:17.

we have given a commitment to give more powers to the people of

:26:18.:26:19.

Scotland, because that is what they want, but we need to look at the

:26:20.:26:23.

other nations as equal nations. We talk the language of being a family

:26:24.:26:27.

of nations, in the United Kingdom. For the first time, we need to look

:26:28.:26:31.

at the Constitution as if we are generally a family. The primers to

:26:32.:26:37.

has told the audience in Edinburgh that he would be heartbroken if --

:26:38.:26:42.

the Prime Minister. Arguing, I love my country more than I love my

:26:43.:26:50.

party. There we go. As we have been discussing, the latest ploy is to

:26:51.:26:53.

reach out to voters in Scotland to tell them that they really do want

:26:54.:27:00.

them to stay. We have heard from David Blunkett saying it is time for

:27:01.:27:05.

people in the UK to phone a Scottish friend.

:27:06.:27:10.

David Cameron and Ed Miliband urged homes and offices

:27:11.:27:12.

across the country to fly the saltire, and it was even raised

:27:13.:27:15.

It happens every day on Saint Andrew stay, but never mind.

:27:16.:27:19.

But in what the superstitious might regard as something

:27:20.:27:21.

of a bad omen for the unionists, the flag fell down, and it took several

:27:22.:27:25.

But, wherever you stand on Scottish independence, there's one thing that

:27:26.:27:29.

we know is universally popular, from Land's End to John O'Groats.

:27:30.:27:31.

No, not the Great British Bake-Off, I speak of course of the

:27:32.:27:34.

We'll remind you how to enter in a minute, but let's see if you

:27:35.:27:39.

MUSIC: "Don't Stop Till You Get Enough" by Michael Jackson.

:27:40.:28:03.

I've always maintained I was innocent

:28:04.:28:14.

MUSIC: "Message in a Bottle" by The Police.

:28:15.:28:22.

I inherited a dairy industry in whch costs had risen, and producers

:28:23.:28:25.

MUSIC: "I Don't Like Mondays" by The Boomtown Rats.

:28:26.:29:06.

To be in with a chance of winning a Daily Politics mug, send your

:29:07.:29:10.

answer to our special quiz email address, that's [email protected]

:29:11.:29:14.

And you can see the full terms and conditions for Guess The Year

:29:15.:29:17.

on our website, that's bbc.co.uk/dailypolitics.

:29:18.:29:27.

What are the full terms and conditions? Have you got half an

:29:28.:29:30.

hour. No. It's coming up to midday here,

:29:31.:29:31.

just take a look at Big Ben, yes, Prime Minister's Questions is

:29:32.:29:34.

on its way, minus the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition,

:29:35.:29:39.

of course. Other than that, it's going to be

:29:40.:29:40.

great! LAUGHTER And that's not all,

:29:41.:29:43.

James Landale is here. So we have got the B team, all eyes

:29:44.:29:51.

are north of the border, does any buddy rarely care what Mr Hague or

:29:52.:29:55.

Miss Harman have to say? Only if they make a mistake. I would expect

:29:56.:30:00.

them to stick to safety first, talk about Scotland, they don't want to

:30:01.:30:04.

portray an image of disunity today. They will agree. Just to let you

:30:05.:30:08.

know, you quoted some of the premise's words, can you also tell

:30:09.:30:12.

you something else -- tell you something Ozzie said, he said this

:30:13.:30:15.

was a decision that would last for centuries. It was not, I quote, if

:30:16.:30:20.

you are fed up with the Tories, you can give them a kick. That is what

:30:21.:30:25.

the primers to said, -- Prime Minister said the premise to said

:30:26.:30:32.

effing Tories. Feeling more to the heart than the head. He saying to

:30:33.:30:37.

Scots, this is not an occasion if you are fed up with the effing

:30:38.:30:40.

Tories give them a kick, this is a decision that would last for

:30:41.:30:45.

centuries. Let's go straight to the house. I hope the language is

:30:46.:30:47.

better. To listen and talk to voters about

:30:48.:31:03.

the huge choice they face, and their message to the Scottish people is

:31:04.:31:07.

simple, from the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland, we want

:31:08.:31:15.

you to stay in the United Kingdom. I join the Prime Minister in the

:31:16.:31:19.

tribute he paid on Monday to Jim Dobbin who died at the weekend. He

:31:20.:31:25.

was a proud Scot and a hard-working and principled particletarian who

:31:26.:31:27.

was respected op both sides of this House. He will be very sadly missed

:31:28.:31:31.

and I know that the thoughts of the whole House are with his family and

:31:32.:31:35.

his friends. Mr Speaker, this morning I had meeting with

:31:36.:31:39.

ministerial colleagues and others and in addition to my duties in this

:31:40.:31:44.

House I will have further such meetings later today.

:31:45.:31:50.

Can I join the the leader of the House in paying tribute to Jim

:31:51.:31:55.

Dobbin, he was a kind and decent man and he he will be sorely missed. Our

:31:56.:32:00.

thoughts and prayers are with his wife Pat and the family. The bedroom

:32:01.:32:05.

tax is discriminal nay Troy. It is damaging amend not even working. On

:32:06.:32:10.

Friday, this House was very very clear, will the Government now

:32:11.:32:14.

listen, will it scrap this wretched pod sip -- policy because if they

:32:15.:32:19.

won't, we will. Well, Mr Speaker, this is a basic

:32:20.:32:23.

issue of fairness here, because if you live in private rented

:32:24.:32:27.

accommodation and receive housing benefit the rules apply throughout

:32:28.:32:30.

the whole of the last Labour Government and we had a situation

:32:31.:32:35.

which neighbouring households could be treated unequally. She asked

:32:36.:32:39.

about the Private Members Bill, the proposal in that bill could cost the

:32:40.:32:43.

country up to ?1 billion and because we have introduced a cap on overall

:32:44.:32:50.

spending, making the changes would mean finding savings elsewhere. I

:32:51.:32:55.

haven't heard suggestion from the party opposite for that. Assuming a

:32:56.:33:00.

no vote in the Scottish referendum, who in the Government will respect

:33:01.:33:04.

England for the new devolution settlement? Who speaks for England,

:33:05.:33:09.

because we need a voice and a new deal? Well, there are many of us who

:33:10.:33:16.

having represented Yorkshire for 25 year, I can claim to speak for

:33:17.:33:21.

England, from time to time. -- years.

:33:22.:33:25.

Your shire men are keen for a far bigger area than they represent

:33:26.:33:30.

themselves. Of course, all of these debates are to be had once the

:33:31.:33:39.

referendum is concluded. Can I thank the Right Honourable member for the

:33:40.:33:44.

word he said about our good friend and colleague Jim Dobbin, and add my

:33:45.:33:49.

tribute to him on his sudden and tragic death at the weekend. He was,

:33:50.:33:55.

as has been said a accident man who stuck to his principles and at a

:33:56.:33:59.

time when it is fashionable to say politicians are in it for themselves

:34:00.:34:05.

he was the opposite of that. Our deepest sympathies are with Pat and

:34:06.:34:08.

their children and we will miss him greatly. -- a accident man. Historic

:34:09.:34:16.

is is a much overused word in politics, does he agree in eight

:34:17.:34:20.

days people the people of Scotland will make a truly historic decision?

:34:21.:34:24.

This is their vote, but I want the message from this side of the House

:34:25.:34:30.

to be heard loud and clear, we want Scotland to stay. I do agree with

:34:31.:34:36.

the Right Honourable lady and that is a clear message from her side of

:34:37.:34:40.

the House and from our different political perspectives, from the

:34:41.:34:43.

side of the House as well. I hope therefore the message the people of

:34:44.:34:47.

Scotland will hear from this House, where Scottish Parliamentarians have

:34:48.:34:52.

made an imminence -- immense contribution for generations we want

:34:53.:34:56.

to stay together and cannot imagine life on these isles without him

:34:57.:35:00.

them. She is a London MP and speaks for millions in what she has said.

:35:01.:35:05.

As, as I fleshed, I am a Yorkshire MP who served as Secretary of State

:35:06.:35:10.

for Wales and we are all proud to be British, combining those identities.

:35:11.:35:15.

There is no doubt we would all be diminished if Scotland was separated

:35:16.:35:20.

from the people of the rest of UK. The roots of our party are deep in

:35:21.:35:24.

Scotland, and we deliver devolution and the Scottish Parliament, but we

:35:25.:35:30.

need to go further. Will he confirm that there will be further

:35:31.:35:34.

devolution and a Scotland Bill setting is out new powers, published

:35:35.:35:41.

in January? Well, as the Right Honourable lady knows that the three

:35:42.:35:45.

main party leaders have come together to agree a programme for

:35:46.:35:51.

change, the member for Cowdenbeath has set out a process for how it

:35:52.:35:56.

could be delivered, to a tight timetable, all three main parties

:35:57.:36:00.

have endorsed that timetable and it mean, immediate action, the day

:36:01.:36:04.

after the referendum, to start the legislative process, it means a

:36:05.:36:07.

command paper, including proposals at the end of October, with a full

:36:08.:36:12.

draft Scotland Bill published by the end of January. And the introduction

:36:13.:36:17.

of a bill, after the general election, regardless of who forms

:36:18.:36:21.

the Government. So that is a clear timetable, and it shows that Scots

:36:22.:36:27.

can have change, without irreversible separation and without

:36:28.:36:32.

risks to jobs and their future. For the clarity of that answer, as we

:36:33.:36:36.

set about devolving further powers to Scotland does he agree that time

:36:37.:36:40.

has also come to devolve further power to Wales and crucially to the

:36:41.:36:46.

great cities and regions of England too? The decision next week, of

:36:47.:36:51.

course, as we know is a matter for the people of Scotland, the

:36:52.:36:54.

implications will be felt by all the people of the United Kingdom, we are

:36:55.:37:01.

already steadily devolving increased power to the, to parts of England as

:37:02.:37:05.

well as have been doing so in Wales, under this Government, Wales has

:37:06.:37:09.

received more primary law making power, we are moving to devolving

:37:10.:37:13.

tax and borrowing powers for the first time, we want to see

:37:14.:37:18.

devolution in Northern Ireland succeed, in England the Lokalism act

:37:19.:37:24.

devolves power of business rates to Local Authorities an city deals have

:37:25.:37:28.

given local areas more of a say. The great strength of the United Kingdom

:37:29.:37:33.

is that it is not a rigid union, it's a living, flexible union, and

:37:34.:37:38.

that is one of its greatest strengths of all. For us, on this

:37:39.:37:44.

side of the House, a fundamental principle of our politics is

:37:45.:37:49.

solidarity, we want the UK to stick together in the cause of social

:37:50.:37:53.

justice. Does he agree with me it is wrong to set the different countries

:37:54.:37:58.

of the UK against each other, whether it is on workers' rights or

:37:59.:38:05.

corporation tax? Well, the Right Honourable lady makes a powerful

:38:06.:38:09.

point about solidarity in the UK. For 300 years we have sat in this

:38:10.:38:13.

House, with Scottish Parliamentarians and their

:38:14.:38:17.

predecessors and they have sat together, from the 18th century to

:38:18.:38:20.

implement a range of together, from the 18th century to

:38:21.:38:25.

causes, from the abolition of the slave trade to our pursuit of human

:38:26.:38:28.

rights and development across the world. We have often led the way at

:38:29.:38:35.

times of world crisis, and been an inspiration to democratic peoples

:38:36.:38:39.

elsewhere. The next 300 years could be as turbulent and dangerous at the

:38:40.:38:44.

last 300 year, so to tear apart a union so proven, so precious, and so

:38:45.:38:50.

valuable, would be a tragic mistake for all our people. People in

:38:51.:38:55.

Scotland can now be certain that with a no vote there would be

:38:56.:38:59.

change, and more powers for Scotland. Does he agree with me that

:39:00.:39:05.

posed against that certainty, is the uncertainty that a yes vote would

:39:06.:39:10.

bring on so many issues like job, pensions, mortgages and the

:39:11.:39:14.

currency? The uncertainty would bring, as impossible to list in the

:39:15.:39:19.

answer to one question, but a letter signed last week by more than 120

:39:20.:39:25.

job creators from across the whole range of Scottish business concluded

:39:26.:39:30.

that the business case for independence had not been made. They

:39:31.:39:35.

said uncertainty surround vital issues including currency,

:39:36.:39:38.

regulation, tax, pension, EU membership and support from for our

:39:39.:39:43.

exports round the world. They said uncertainty is bad for business. The

:39:44.:39:46.

Governor of the Bank of England said yesterday that sovereignty and the

:39:47.:39:49.

currency union are incompatible and he is right. Many of us have pointed

:39:50.:39:55.

that out for many years in relation to another currency. And be certain

:39:56.:40:00.

of this. Be certain of this. This is not an opinion poll where you can

:40:01.:40:04.

change your mind the next day. It is not an election where you can

:40:05.:40:08.

reverse the result four or five years later. It is a permanent

:40:09.:40:14.

decision that will affect generations, and therefore, the

:40:15.:40:17.

votes cast next Thursday will probably be the most important vote

:40:18.:40:22.

that can be cast in any country, at any time, and the voters must

:40:23.:40:29.

therefore weigh that vote heavily. While jobs, pension, taxes are

:40:30.:40:33.

important, next week's decisions, as he rightly says is about much, much

:40:34.:40:37.

more than that. For sure, there must be change. We must have that and we

:40:38.:40:42.

will, but not by tearing this country apart. We must stay as

:40:43.:40:47.

family, not become foreigners to each other. She puts it very well.

:40:48.:40:58.

We all want the best for Scotland as we want the best for our own

:40:59.:41:02.

constituents, from all parts of the UK in many. The people of England,

:41:03.:41:06.

Wales and Northern Ireland believe Scotland is better off in the UK and

:41:07.:41:09.

the UK is better off with Scotland in it. So this referendum is the

:41:10.:41:14.

most important choice the people of Scotland will ever make. A choice

:41:15.:41:18.

between the opportunity and security of staying in the UK, or of leaving

:41:19.:41:23.

for ever, without the pound, without the UK's influence in the world,

:41:24.:41:27.

with Scotland as part of the UK, we have the best possible situation and

:41:28.:41:32.

a great future together in the United Kingdom. Mr Speaker, since

:41:33.:41:39.

2012, my right honourable friend and I have been supporting the policy of

:41:40.:41:45.

the Government, not to offer so-called Devo Max as a consolation

:41:46.:41:49.

prize in the event of a no vote, in the Scottish referendum. If this is

:41:50.:41:53.

no longer the policy of the Government, when and why did it

:41:54.:41:58.

change, and what opportunity has there been for this House to express

:41:59.:42:04.

its view? It has been the policy of the Government for some time, to be

:42:05.:42:07.

open to further devolution and I gave examples of what we have done

:42:08.:42:12.

in Wales for instance, during the lifetime of this Government. The

:42:13.:42:17.

statements by the party leaders, made on this in the last few day,

:42:18.:42:24.

are statement by party leaders, in a campaign, not a statement of

:42:25.:42:27.

Government policy but a statement of commitment from the three main

:42:28.:42:31.

political party, akin to statements by party leaders in a general

:42:32.:42:35.

election campaign, of what they intend to do afterwards, it is on

:42:36.:42:39.

that basis they have made those statements.

:42:40.:42:45.

In 2012, the Chancellor set himself a target to double exports to 1

:42:46.:42:51.

trillion by 2020. I wonder whether he could won firm his Government is

:42:52.:42:57.

on course to miss this tart get by a massive -- this target by a massive

:42:58.:43:03.

300 billion. Nobody can claim to know what the figure will be in 2020

:43:04.:43:07.

since we are only in 2014 at the moment. A great deal of work, a

:43:08.:43:14.

great deal of work has to be done, but we have greatly intensified the

:43:15.:43:20.

promotion of British e ports, that is why and in my time as Foreign

:43:21.:43:26.

Secretary opened nearly 20 new embassies and Consulates, including

:43:27.:43:29.

many that the party opposite closed when they were in power, that is why

:43:30.:43:36.

we have revamped UK TI. We have huge increases in exports to countries

:43:37.:43:41.

like China and India and Brazil, and everybody, of all parties and

:43:42.:43:45.

business, must join in making a success of that by 2020. Mr Speaker,

:43:46.:43:50.

my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister

:43:51.:43:54.

and the Leader of the Opposition are rightly campaigning today, for the

:43:55.:44:01.

future of our union. On a dally day sips, with Gatwick in my

:44:02.:44:07.

constituency, I see the strong family and business links between my

:44:08.:44:13.

local airport and Scottish airports. Does my right honourable friend the

:44:14.:44:17.

leader of the house agree with me, that our great kingdom is better

:44:18.:44:23.

together, as a united Britain? I say that as somebody with proud Scottish

:44:24.:44:29.

ancestry. Yes, I absolutely agree with my honourable friend and what

:44:30.:44:34.

he can see at Gatwick Airport and what we all experience round other

:44:35.:44:38.

parts of eping England and Wales is a very good example of his point. In

:44:39.:44:43.

fact two thirds of Scottish exports are exported to the rest of the

:44:44.:44:47.

United Kingdom. Twice as much as to the rest of the world put together.

:44:48.:44:54.

Why would anyone choose to place an international border, where those

:44:55.:44:59.

exports are going? And do so unnecessarily. So he makes a very

:45:00.:45:05.

powerful point. Mr Speaker, the leader of the house

:45:06.:45:09.

is right. Next Thursday, the Scots go to the polls to make what is

:45:10.:45:15.

undoubtedly the most historic momentous decision we have had the

:45:16.:45:18.

privilege to consider. Will the Leader of the House join me

:45:19.:45:31.

in congratulating the Scottish people for the way they have gone

:45:32.:45:34.

around conducting this incredible debate? Well, I'm happy... He is

:45:35.:45:45.

right, it was a gentle understatement that we want

:45:46.:45:49.

different things from this process. LAUGHTER

:45:50.:45:55.

But of course we applaud the people of Scotland for taking such an

:45:56.:45:57.

immense interest in this on all sides. And of course it's very

:45:58.:46:02.

important that there is a high turnout in any such referendum, so I

:46:03.:46:05.

absolutely congratulate the people of Scotland, but I don't

:46:06.:46:11.

congratulate those such as his own party who have failed to be straight

:46:12.:46:19.

with the people of Scotland. Who have never explained what money

:46:20.:46:22.

Scotland will use, and what its value will be, who have never

:46:23.:46:27.

explained how long it would take to rejoin the European Union and on

:46:28.:46:31.

what terms, who have never explained how they would fund schools and

:46:32.:46:36.

hospitals, when there would be a ?6 billion black hole in their

:46:37.:46:40.

finances, who haven't explained that their threat not to pay debts would

:46:41.:46:45.

be disastrous for Scotland's long-term future. They are

:46:46.:46:48.

passionate about Scotland, and they are passionate about separation but

:46:49.:46:51.

they are not passionate about telling the truth to the people of

:46:52.:46:59.

Scotland. Embracing three centuries, the garrison town of

:47:00.:47:06.

Colchester has welcomed thousands of Scottish soldiers, many with their

:47:07.:47:13.

families. We wish that to continue. Does the Leader of the House agree

:47:14.:47:17.

with the Defence Select Committee that if Scotland ceased to be part

:47:18.:47:22.

of the UK, and we have the best Armed Forces in Europe, this would

:47:23.:47:27.

pose serious security and defence risks for a separate Scotland,

:47:28.:47:31.

without the capacity to defend itself? My honourable friend makes

:47:32.:47:39.

an extremely important point. He sees the participation and the work

:47:40.:47:42.

and the sacrifices of members of the armed Forces from Scotland when they

:47:43.:47:48.

are deployed in cultures to. I see the garrison in my own constituency.

:47:49.:47:51.

He makes an important point about the security of all of us --

:47:52.:47:59.

deployed in Colchester. It is important for Scotland's security.

:48:00.:48:05.

Her Majesty's Naval base, Clyde, is the largest employment site on the

:48:06.:48:08.

whole of Scotland and is going to get vigour with the deployment of

:48:09.:48:14.

all of our submarines. These things are put at risk. Last Thursday, I

:48:15.:48:25.

attended a public meeting in my constituency, where the doctors were

:48:26.:48:30.

consulting their patients about how they were going to deal with a

:48:31.:48:37.

budgetary cut of 22 to 24% by the year 2018. This cut of 22 to 24% has

:48:38.:48:44.

officially been notified to them by NHS England. Will the Leader of the

:48:45.:48:47.

House confirmed that if the Conservatives are in power after the

:48:48.:48:51.

general election, these are the cuts that my constituents can expect? I

:48:52.:48:55.

can confirm that this government has raised the NHS budget in line with

:48:56.:49:00.

inflation, which his party was not committed to do at the last general

:49:01.:49:04.

election. I know the Secretary of State for health will want to

:49:05.:49:07.

discuss with him the details of the local situation, but I hope he did

:49:08.:49:13.

explain to them that, overall, since the last election, the number of

:49:14.:49:18.

nurses is up 3700, the number of doctors is up 6500, the number of

:49:19.:49:23.

people who say they are treated with dignity and respect is up 10%, and

:49:24.:49:28.

we've now been ranked as the top health system in the world,

:49:29.:49:32.

according to the Commonwealth fund, moving from seventh in the world

:49:33.:49:33.

four years ago. Would my right honourable friend

:49:34.:49:44.

applaud the initiative of Prince Harry, in creating the Invicta 's

:49:45.:49:48.

games, and welcome all the participants to this country on our

:49:49.:49:59.

behalf? Absolutely -- Invictus Games. This is an important

:50:00.:50:03.

continuation of the immensely proud sporting history we have in this

:50:04.:50:07.

country. We are established again as one of the great sporting nations of

:50:08.:50:10.

the world, and we are also a country that thinks deeply about the welfare

:50:11.:50:15.

of service veterans and his Royal Highness, Prince Harry, has been one

:50:16.:50:19.

of the great champions of this and we wish him and everyone involved in

:50:20.:50:26.

the game is very much well. In 2012, the primers to said he wanted to see

:50:27.:50:31.

economic growth that meant rising living standards for all. Can the

:50:32.:50:34.

Leader of the House tell us why Britain has seen one of the largest

:50:35.:50:38.

falls in real wages of any EU country, beaten only by Cyprus,

:50:39.:50:44.

Portugal and Greece? He might remember that there was a debt

:50:45.:50:48.

fuelled recession that came about under the previous government. And,

:50:49.:50:54.

of course, that has to be paid for. But after four years now of the

:50:55.:51:00.

disciplined policy of my right honourable friend, the Chancellor of

:51:01.:51:03.

the Exchequer, we now have the fastest growth of the G-7 economies.

:51:04.:51:09.

We have employment nearing a record high. We have nearly 2 million new

:51:10.:51:15.

apprenticeships who have started in this time. This is a remarkable

:51:16.:51:18.

economic turnaround from a catastrophic situation we were left.

:51:19.:51:24.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Does the Leader of the House agree with me

:51:25.:51:29.

that Scottish independence is not about getting one over Westminster,

:51:30.:51:34.

is not about embarrassing the Prime Minister or the leader of the

:51:35.:51:38.

opposition, it's not about defeating the old enemy, but it is about

:51:39.:51:44.

Scotland turning its back on 300 years of successful union and

:51:45.:51:47.

rejecting so much that this country has made to make us all so proud of

:51:48.:51:55.

being part of Great Britain? My honourable friend is right, it is

:51:56.:52:00.

not about any individual or party or election, it is a far longer term

:52:01.:52:06.

decision than that. And, I must say, in my experience all over the world,

:52:07.:52:10.

other nations regard the UK with admiration and sometimes even envy.

:52:11.:52:16.

If Scotland voted yes, all over the world, people who share our values

:52:17.:52:21.

and count on our contribution to peace, stability and human rights,

:52:22.:52:25.

would be disappointed, while those who don't share those priorities and

:52:26.:52:28.

beliefs would be quietly satisfied, and that is another thing we all

:52:29.:52:34.

have to bear in mind. At the end of last month, my constituent

:52:35.:52:43.

disappeared in Qatar. He had been arrested by the Secret Service there

:52:44.:52:48.

because he was investigating the human rights abuses of workers who

:52:49.:52:53.

were working to build the infrastructure for the 2022 World

:52:54.:52:58.

Cup. I thank the Foreign Office for their help in securing his release,

:52:59.:53:03.

but what action will he take to speak to the Ambassador of Qatar

:53:04.:53:10.

about the disgrace of arresting him in the first place and the treatment

:53:11.:53:14.

of those preparing those facilities? The honourable member 's right to

:53:15.:53:20.

say the Foreign Office has pursued it and achieved some success in

:53:21.:53:25.

doing so, as we will in any parallel cases in the future. I know that the

:53:26.:53:29.

embassy and the Foreign Office will want to follow up these matters.

:53:30.:53:33.

That is for my successor, the Foreign Secretary, to determine, so

:53:34.:53:37.

I will draw his attention to the question asked by the honourable

:53:38.:53:41.

member and ask him to write to him about it. With mounting evidence of

:53:42.:53:49.

an innovative, very vibrant and growing real economy, especially in

:53:50.:53:52.

manufacturing and engineering, does the first Secretary of State agree

:53:53.:53:56.

with me that Scotland should remain with us, first to share in the

:53:57.:54:00.

fruits of that success, and second to give us a bigger footprint in the

:54:01.:54:07.

global trade? Yes, I do. This is another very good point, and the

:54:08.:54:10.

economic turnaround that has now been brought about by the UK means

:54:11.:54:14.

that employment in Scotland is now at a record high. There have been

:54:15.:54:19.

seven consecutive quarters of economic growth in Scotland. And

:54:20.:54:24.

there are a quarter of a million more private-sector jobs in Scotland

:54:25.:54:29.

than there were four years ago. That is a reminder of the potential, if

:54:30.:54:32.

we continue to work together, and that is the message that I again

:54:33.:54:37.

repeat to the people of Scotland today. I welcomed suggestions that

:54:38.:54:43.

the premise to will attend the crucial climate summit at the end of

:54:44.:54:48.

this month. Will he confirm the primers to will go and will he tell

:54:49.:54:51.

us what bold new initiative is the prime list will be taking with him,

:54:52.:54:54.

because that's what my constituents in Brighton say they want. They want

:54:55.:54:58.

to protect what they want, they want urgent action on climate change.

:54:59.:55:04.

Order, can I just say, for future reference, it is disorderly to

:55:05.:55:09.

display images in that way, and I say with all courtesy to the

:55:10.:55:12.

honourable lady, whose principal and commitment I respect, that if

:55:13.:55:17.

everybody did that on every cause, it would make a mockery of this

:55:18.:55:22.

place. I asked the honourable lady to take a view much wider than her

:55:23.:55:28.

own immediate preoccupation. Leader of the House. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

:55:29.:55:34.

The answer is the Prime Minister will attend the UN General Assembly

:55:35.:55:40.

later it is September. We haven't yet issued or finally decided his

:55:41.:55:44.

precise schedule, but of course we are looking at attending the meeting

:55:45.:55:51.

the honourable lady refers to, and Britain will continue to play a

:55:52.:55:56.

leading role in the world in bringing about legally abiding

:55:57.:56:00.

agreement on climate change. The next 15 months is a very important

:56:01.:56:03.

period on this, leading up to the meeting in Paris at the end of next

:56:04.:56:08.

year. We are one of the most active countries in the world on climate

:56:09.:56:12.

change diplomacy, and the prime list and other ministers in New York will

:56:13.:56:15.

be fully conveying that, whoever attends the meeting. Will my

:56:16.:56:24.

honourable friend explained to the house why it is that with the

:56:25.:56:28.

possibility that there could be a yes vote, finance is leaving

:56:29.:56:34.

Scotland, many businesses are thinking of leaving Scotland? Surely

:56:35.:56:38.

if economic arguments were so good for the Yes campaign, the reverse

:56:39.:56:43.

would be happening? My honourable friend makes a very powerful point,

:56:44.:56:47.

the anxieties of big businesses are very clear to see. And while we can

:56:48.:56:53.

understand people doubting the word of politicians about economic

:56:54.:56:57.

events, it's very important to listen to what businesses say they

:56:58.:57:01.

will do with their jobs, with their headquarters, with their

:57:02.:57:06.

investments, because a country that has separated itself from the

:57:07.:57:10.

fastest-growing economy of the G-7, that put itself outside the European

:57:11.:57:15.

Union without thinking about implications of doing that, and that

:57:16.:57:21.

ended up with no central bank and unsure which currency was going to

:57:22.:57:24.

use would of course find it difficult to attract new business to

:57:25.:57:32.

its shores. The transatlantic trade and investment partnership believes

:57:33.:57:36.

the health service vulnerable to some of the worst possible outcomes

:57:37.:57:40.

of this government's privatisation programme. Private investors will be

:57:41.:57:46.

able to hold the government and devolved ministrations through the

:57:47.:57:50.

investor state settlement tribunal, in that respect how can the Leader

:57:51.:57:53.

of the House guarantee that the health service, including the health

:57:54.:57:58.

services in the devolved administrations, will be except? My

:57:59.:58:06.

right honourable friend has been dealing with these matters and has

:58:07.:58:11.

held a briefing about such matters, so I have no doubt we can furnish

:58:12.:58:14.

her with more details on these issues. But it is very important to

:58:15.:58:22.

maintain a commitment to free trade that has been a characteristic of

:58:23.:58:24.

the United Kingdom over many centuries, and which has invariably

:58:25.:58:31.

brought greater prosperity to the people of the UK, as well as to

:58:32.:58:34.

people all over the rest of the world. The transatlantic trade and

:58:35.:58:38.

investment partnership is another major opportunity to boost free

:58:39.:58:46.

trade across the world. Mr Speaker, a vote next week in favour of an

:58:47.:58:50.

independent Scotland would have major damaging implications for

:58:51.:58:54.

Wales. Does my right honourable friend agree with me that my fellow

:58:55.:58:59.

Welsh citizens, who care about the future of our Welsh nation, should

:59:00.:59:05.

be hoping and praying for rejection of the break-up of the United

:59:06.:59:11.

Kingdom? Yes. Absolutely. I think they are. I regularly consult with

:59:12.:59:17.

at least one Welsh citizens, and on the evidence of that, they are very

:59:18.:59:22.

much hoping and praying that the UK will not be broken up, and my

:59:23.:59:26.

honourable friend I know speaks very well for his constituents in mid

:59:27.:59:29.

Wales. All of us in the United Kingdom would be diminished by the

:59:30.:59:33.

break-up of the United Kingdom. We are something greater than the sum

:59:34.:59:36.

of our parts, and that is well understood across the UK, and the

:59:37.:59:42.

impact upon Wales would be a mistake of all.

:59:43.:59:50.

Six in ten people couldn't get a GP's appointment within two days of

:59:51.:59:58.

them needing one. Can the Secretary of State explain to the house why

:59:59.:00:03.

his party won't support Labour's patrol Sams to guarantee an

:00:04.:00:08.

appointment withinle hours. Professionals in the health system

:00:09.:00:12.

have said going back to that target would be a counter productive thing

:00:13.:00:17.

to do. And the honourable member knows that the number of people

:00:18.:00:24.

treated by GPs has increased by many millions over the last four years,

:00:25.:00:29.

that is a trend that is continuing, of course, we are always trying to

:00:30.:00:35.

seek further improvement but reintroducing the old failed target

:00:36.:00:39.

is not the way forward. When I travel abroad, and I am asked

:00:40.:00:45.

where I come from, I am proud to say, I am British. Does my right

:00:46.:00:48.

honourable friend agree with me that you can be proud to be British but

:00:49.:00:54.

still have your own identity of being English, Scottish, Welsh or

:00:55.:00:58.

from Northern Ireland and we should remain together and continue as

:00:59.:01:05.

Great Britons. I don't think anybody could have put it better. My right

:01:06.:01:08.

honourable friend has his own identity in different ways, he has

:01:09.:01:12.

expressed that beautifully including his identity with the United Kingdom

:01:13.:01:15.

and that is how so many of us think in Britain and let us hope it is

:01:16.:01:22.

possible to continue to do so. Mr Speaker, can I support the visit

:01:23.:01:26.

of the Prime Minister, Deputy Prime Minister and the leader of the

:01:27.:01:30.

opposition, speaking directly to people of Scotland, my right

:01:31.:01:34.

honourable friends and myself, and honourable member, speaking on

:01:35.:01:37.

behalf of the vast majority of the people in Northern Ireland, they

:01:38.:01:41.

want the United Kingdom to stay together, and it is my hope, that

:01:42.:01:47.

some of those who are crowing today, may be disappointed after the

:01:48.:01:51.

referendum. That is certainly my hope as well, and I am very pleased

:01:52.:01:55.

the right honourable gentleman has been able to make this point. It

:01:56.:01:59.

means in this short Question Time, we have heard from members from

:02:00.:02:04.

England, Wales and Northern Ireland, with very clear message to the

:02:05.:02:08.

people of Scotland, that we want them to stay. Mr Speaker, my parents

:02:09.:02:15.

will soon celebrate their 60th wedding anniversary. My mother was

:02:16.:02:23.

born in Aberdeen, and my father in Cambridge. Is my right honourable

:02:24.:02:27.

friend reassured there is no need for any senior politicians to come

:02:28.:02:31.

to their anniversary event, because my parents know in their heads, and

:02:32.:02:36.

in their hearts, that in their union, as in the other union, they

:02:37.:02:42.

are happier together and better together.

:02:43.:02:43.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

:02:44.:02:49.

Well I extend the congratulations of Her Majesty's Government to his

:02:50.:02:56.

parents. And indeed, of the whole of the House of Commons, and I think

:02:57.:03:01.

all the political parties in it. Even of the Scottish National Party

:03:02.:03:06.

on this occasion, they are an example to us all, particularly

:03:07.:03:10.

after 60 year, and I hope that example will be one that will

:03:11.:03:15.

continue to be heeded and respected all over the UK.

:03:16.:03:20.

Mr Speaker, contrary to the previous question, from temperature member

:03:21.:03:27.

from Perth, this campaign has been fraught by fear and intimidation.

:03:28.:03:31.

But is somewhat ironic, Mr Speaker, that the majority of the Scottish

:03:32.:03:37.

separatists, have turned out for today's debate, yet just last fried

:03:38.:03:41.

when we were discussing the important factor of welfare reform,

:03:42.:03:47.

less than half of them turned out to a debate that justified, that

:03:48.:03:53.

justifies their priorities to come here, to whinge rather than debate.

:03:54.:03:59.

I don't think I needed a to the honourable member's description of

:04:00.:04:06.

the Scottish National Party. Mr Scottish pro unionist friends have

:04:07.:04:16.

reminded me that the Middle East peace envoy reportedly said he

:04:17.:04:20.

welcomes the publication of the Chilcott report. Will he tell the

:04:21.:04:25.

House when we can expect the report to be published? I can tell him this

:04:26.:04:31.

work continues, that Lord Chilcott said he intends to publish the

:04:32.:04:35.

report as soon as possible. There is no, I don't have any fixed date I

:04:36.:04:40.

can give to my honourable friend. I will only observer had that inquiry

:04:41.:04:45.

been set up when I and others first called for it and voted for it, in

:04:46.:04:52.

2006, it would have reported long ago. It was set up late, it is

:04:53.:04:58.

therefore reporting late an we look forward to it. Is it acceptable for

:04:59.:05:04.

young people to be fed take away pizza at lunchtime, because the

:05:05.:05:08.

government has failed to prepare schools properly for the

:05:09.:05:12.

introduction of a free nutritious meal? Well, I think to put that into

:05:13.:05:19.

perspective, I think the latest figures are that 98.5% of schools

:05:20.:05:24.

are now providing a hot meal as they were intended to do, to infants,

:05:25.:05:29.

that is going up all the time. There are Government funds of course to

:05:30.:05:33.

help those schools who need new facilities to do so. It think it

:05:34.:05:38.

would be right to welcome the entirety of that picture, rather

:05:39.:05:43.

than trying to find fault with one small aspect of it.

:05:44.:05:53.

STUDIO: It was like Hamlet without the Prince there. It was a bit of a

:05:54.:05:57.

love in as well. Almost as if I am sure this is not the care, almost as

:05:58.:06:02.

if the two frontbenches has choreographed their love for the

:06:03.:06:06.

union and their hatred of Scottish independence as they cooed at each

:06:07.:06:09.

other across the despatch box. Even the backbenchers got in on the act

:06:10.:06:13.

with a lot of anti-independence questions coming from MPs, except

:06:14.:06:18.

from the one Scottish Nationalist who asked a question, we didn't

:06:19.:06:22.

learn anything new, some will have heard the sound of stable doors

:06:23.:06:26.

closing as the horse has already bolted. Let us see what you thought

:06:27.:06:30.

of it There was less of a love in among the viewers. This came from

:06:31.:06:36.

Joan. It is undemocratic to offer more powers after many people have

:06:37.:06:40.

posted their votes. Although it doesn't breach the Edinburgh

:06:41.:06:42.

agreement it does breach the spirit of it. I don't want to be governed

:06:43.:06:47.

by a bunch of Charlatans. This from Alistair. "We in non-Metropolitan

:06:48.:06:53.

England need a concrete plan for real equal devolution, not LEP,

:06:54.:07:00.

grand council or glorified unity authorities but devolution for all.

:07:01.:07:04.

This from Bill. "Leaders have long their reason. Vote no and we will

:07:05.:07:08.

give you more independence. No should mean no. Yes should mean yes.

:07:09.:07:12.

Let us get rid of the Scottish Parliament. If we are better

:07:13.:07:17.

together it is better to have one Parliament." This from Linda. "Let

:07:18.:07:23.

them go. Move air and sea bases to Northumberland, be careful what

:07:24.:07:26.

rights Scots are offered or we will all be up in arms." There we go.

:07:27.:07:32.

Perhaps the most significant intervention came from John red wood

:07:33.:07:37.

hen he asked the question who speaks for England? The English voice has

:07:38.:07:41.

not really by heard in this campaign. It is clear we will hear

:07:42.:07:46.

from England if the vote is yes. If it is no, then in other ways I think

:07:47.:07:50.

we will be hearing from England as well.

:07:51.:07:53.

Any way, the real action was not in the Commons today, it was north of

:07:54.:07:56.

the border, with the Prime Minister being there, the leader of the

:07:57.:08:00.

opposition and the Deputy Prime Minister too. While we were on air

:08:01.:08:05.

David Cameron has been speaking in Edinburgh, to an audience there. Let

:08:06.:08:09.

us have a look at what he has to say.

:08:10.:08:12.

Sometimes because it is an election, a ballot, I think people can feel it

:08:13.:08:18.

is like a general election, that you make a decision and five years later

:08:19.:08:22.

you can make another one, if you are fed up with the Tory, give them a

:08:23.:08:27.

kick and maybe we will think again this is tote definitely represent to

:08:28.:08:31.

a general election this is a decision about not the next five

:08:32.:08:36.

years, it is a decision about the next century. That was the Prime

:08:37.:08:42.

Minister speaking in Scotland. James, this must have been put

:08:43.:08:46.

together at the last minute. It was only yesterday we found out they

:08:47.:08:50.

were going to Scotland. Yes it is. When we spoke to the Prime

:08:51.:08:55.

Minister's spokesman we said when he is going up, we were told in the

:08:56.:08:59.

last week. A decision was clearly taken, I think the moment of change

:09:00.:09:03.

happened on Monday afternoon, after the Prime Minister's statement on

:09:04.:09:07.

NATO. He and Ed Miliband met behind the speaker's chair in the Prime

:09:08.:09:11.

Minister's offices there. They said we have to go up, they hatched this

:09:12.:09:16.

plan to abandon PMQs and go up. Is it last minute? Yes, we saw the

:09:17.:09:21.

Prime Minister not speaking from note, he swiftly moved off those,

:09:22.:09:25.

talking passionately using words we don't normally here from a Prime

:09:26.:09:30.

Minister, but clearly. Not publicly. Trying to inject a bit, this is not

:09:31.:09:35.

just to use his words a chance to have a go at the effing Tories but a

:09:36.:09:40.

wider decision. He was close to tears towards the end I have seen in

:09:41.:09:46.

some reports. We will no doubt see that later. The Prime Minister said

:09:47.:09:50.

in this speech, if Scotland did vote yes he would have to handle the

:09:51.:09:55.

negotiations, up until 2015 when we see the result of the election.

:09:56.:10:00.

Which suggests that he, that sort of reinforces his claim he will not

:10:01.:10:06.

resign, if he loses Scotland. But my sources tell me there is a lot of

:10:07.:10:10.

Tory MPs will want him to resign. There will be some Conservatives who

:10:11.:10:14.

will call for him to go if a yes vote wins. The question to look for

:10:15.:10:19.

is, are those conservative MPs the same ones who called for him to go

:10:20.:10:25.

before or are there news one? If you are a Conservative MP you might be

:10:26.:10:29.

furious, passionate and angry if that is what happen, the loss of the

:10:30.:10:32.

union, you will be thinking what are the best chances for me in 2015? Do

:10:33.:10:39.

they think a divisive leadership contest, is that the best way to do

:10:40.:10:43.

it, or do they try and say, look, this, the Prime Minister has taken

:10:44.:10:47.

the hit, he will be forever known as the Prime Minister who presighed

:10:48.:10:50.

over the loss of the union and hope he goes, you know, at the time of

:10:51.:10:57.

the election. So, he is making very clear, and privately his people made

:10:58.:11:00.

clear he is not going to, because they believe there will be enough

:11:01.:11:04.

people who will say, no, now is not the to lose a Prime Minister,

:11:05.:11:09.

because will not, you will get saying do we want have that

:11:10.:11:12.

uncertainty? Probably not. It is having an effect on your party, the

:11:13.:11:20.

Conservative Party's, standing and reputation, the before this, what

:11:21.:11:24.

you might call the crisis in the friend came up, you were almost

:11:25.:11:27.

getting nip and tuck with Labour, you are seven points behind. There

:11:28.:11:32.

is no appetite among my Conservative colleagues for any change in

:11:33.:11:36.

leadership. It is above party politics. It is not a destroy of

:11:37.:11:39.

strength. David Cameron is our Prime Minister now, he will be ourpm after

:11:40.:11:44.

the friend because there will be huge decisions that have to be

:11:45.:11:48.

taken. The leader of the Conservative and unionist party will

:11:49.:11:52.

have lost the union. Some Tory backbenchers are describing him as

:11:53.:11:56.

the Lord north of the 21st century. The Prime Minister who lost the

:11:57.:12:00.

American colonies. We have provided the opportunity for the people of

:12:01.:12:04.

Scotland to have this discussion, they are taking the decision, it

:12:05.:12:07.

isn't about David Cameron, Ed Miliband or any Westminster

:12:08.:12:10.

politician, it is about what the people of Scotland choose, we want

:12:11.:12:13.

them to make the right decision, which is to stick with the UK. If,

:12:14.:12:21.

is it not something of a crisis for Ed Miliband as well, because the

:12:22.:12:27.

Labour Party has dominated the better together campaign, they have

:12:28.:12:30.

called the shots, we saw that again with Gordon Brown this week, and if

:12:31.:12:35.

it is a yes vote, it will be because Mr Miliband could not convince

:12:36.:12:39.

enough of his own supporters to vote for the union. He couldn't get them

:12:40.:12:44.

out. So therefore, he will go down as being a man who lost the union.

:12:45.:12:48.

We don't know what is going to happen. I am saying if it is a yes

:12:49.:12:53.

vote. This is a distraction, the most serious implication of a yes

:12:54.:12:58.

vote next week is separation of Scotland from a 300-year-old union

:12:59.:13:03.

and a real risk it diminishes our voice in the world, in terms of the

:13:04.:13:10.

UN, we heard from from your report, these are the serious implications

:13:11.:13:15.

of separation. We know that but the men, you know, when China went

:13:16.:13:18.

Communist there was a huge debate who lost China, in America. There

:13:19.:13:23.

are, who lost Iran was a great debate after 1979 and the people in

:13:24.:13:28.

power at the time, have to take some of the responsibility. Now, Mr

:13:29.:13:32.

Cameron is the Prime Minister, so he is the man who would be leader at

:13:33.:13:36.

the time if this was to happen. But we know from the polls that 95% of

:13:37.:13:41.

Scottish Conservatives intend to vote for the union, we also know

:13:42.:13:46.

from the latest polls that maybe 30-35% of Labour voters are going to

:13:47.:13:51.

vote for independence. Now that is pure surely a major problem for Ed

:13:52.:13:56.

Miliband. We don't know yet how the voters are going to vote. We won't

:13:57.:14:01.

know until polling day. We have seen the trends. Why prematurely engage

:14:02.:14:05.

in a blame game. We don't know what is going to happen. What is

:14:06.:14:09.

important is we make the arguments, that Scotland should stay within the

:14:10.:14:13.

family of nation, for all the positive reasons but we outline the

:14:14.:14:18.

risks and to be frank I think this is a bit of a distraction, having a

:14:19.:14:24.

potential blame game scenario, it trikes me as... The better together

:14:25.:14:28.

campaign was about 20 points ahead and it is closed. Who is to blame

:14:29.:14:33.

for that? There has been a significant percentage of people in

:14:34.:14:37.

Scotland who are undecided. Now, according to a poll yesterday there

:14:38.:14:40.

are still 20% of people, that is a massive number of people, one in

:14:41.:14:44.

five people in Scotland still undecided. There is still all to

:14:45.:14:49.

play for, you know, the polls were always going to narrow. The better

:14:50.:14:53.

together campaign has been ahead for the last weeks and month, it was

:14:54.:14:56.

always going to be closer to the time of the referendum, I really

:14:57.:14:59.

think you know discussion about David Cameron's future and Ed

:15:00.:15:02.

Miliband's future is a distraction. When the focus should be on the real

:15:03.:15:06.

issue at hand which is what will happen to Scotland, and the rest of

:15:07.:15:11.

us, if they vote for separation. I understand we are a week away from a

:15:12.:15:14.

referendum in which the polls are nip and tuck. It is only right that

:15:15.:15:17.

the rest of the United Kingdom should start to think more than it

:15:18.:15:21.

has, about the consequences of a yes vote, so let me ask another question

:15:22.:15:26.

along these line, if it is a yes vote should the general election in

:15:27.:15:30.

May be postpones. I don't see a clear reason why. Why

:15:31.:15:43.

should Scotland get to vote if it has already voted to depart the

:15:44.:15:46.

United Kingdom? I think we continue as business so far, work that is set

:15:47.:15:52.

back in primary legislation, you need to come act of Parliament and

:15:53.:15:54.

reworked the legislation to do that. The simplest thing is you

:15:55.:15:59.

press ahead and at the point in 2016 if Scotland does vote yes for

:16:00.:16:03.

independence, that is the point the Scottish MPs, we lose them from

:16:04.:16:07.

Westminster. You could be in a position of Labour forming the next

:16:08.:16:11.

government, only because of the 40 or so MPs cut from Scotland. MPs

:16:12.:16:16.

will be temporary, will be leaving with Independence Day on 2016. That

:16:17.:16:22.

would make you a government of the walking wounded right from the

:16:23.:16:26.

start. Under the eyes of the English, illegitimate. Firstly, I

:16:27.:16:30.

think there is no question that we could go beyond a parliament of five

:16:31.:16:33.

years. I think, if I'm right in saying, that would not be

:16:34.:16:36.

constitutional, and it certainly would set a kind of dangerous

:16:37.:16:41.

precedent for elections in the future. And secondly, we just simply

:16:42.:16:44.

don't know what's going to happen next week. Obviously, I hope that we

:16:45.:16:50.

win the general election next year with a significant majority. This is

:16:51.:16:55.

kind of uncharted territory, in terms of the what ifs and the

:16:56.:17:00.

wherefores. Until we know what happens on Thursday next week, I'm

:17:01.:17:04.

not sure this is where the date is at. Westminster, that YouGov poll

:17:05.:17:13.

has concentrated minds in Westminster and they are now

:17:14.:17:15.

thinking about the consequences of this. For example, if Mr Miliband

:17:16.:17:19.

wins the next general election in 2015, I would suggest he could not

:17:20.:17:24.

appoint a Scottish minister in any department because every government

:17:25.:17:27.

department will be involved in setting up the rest of the UK's

:17:28.:17:31.

divorce terms, so you can't put the other side on your side. That will

:17:32.:17:36.

have to be decided by legislation. It is very clear the negotiating

:17:37.:17:40.

teams on both sides will have to be specifically set out, and that...

:17:41.:17:47.

You say Westminster is waking up, and yet the most astonishing thing

:17:48.:17:51.

is that Westminster and Whitehall have not made contingency plans.

:17:52.:17:56.

Whenever I am told this, I say, surely not, but all these officials

:17:57.:18:01.

say they are not doing it, even the Cabinet Secretary said before

:18:02.:18:02.

Parliamentary committee this week we have not done it because we have

:18:03.:18:06.

been told by our political masters not to do it. And yet, if a Yes vote

:18:07.:18:13.

is successful, there are hundreds of questions about how you and stitch

:18:14.:18:17.

Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom. What happens to all the

:18:18.:18:20.

civil servants who work for the UK in Scotland, what happens to the

:18:21.:18:23.

civil servants who work in England or Wales or Northern Ireland for

:18:24.:18:27.

Scotland? Do they lose their jobs, do they have to move anywhere? On

:18:28.:18:30.

top of all the other issues we have talked about, currency and defence,

:18:31.:18:35.

they're all of those issues too, and yet there is no contingency plan for

:18:36.:18:39.

that matters the most extraordinary thing about this. If there is a Yes

:18:40.:18:43.

vote, they will be very busy from the early hours of 19 September

:18:44.:18:44.

onwards. Until 2016. Now, as the general election looms,

:18:45.:18:49.

all the parties are desperately trying to raise enough cash to

:18:50.:18:51.

finance their campaigns. At the 2010 general election,

:18:52.:18:54.

parties spent more than ?31 million on the campaigns, and this was down

:18:55.:18:56.

from the 2005 general election, But how do party officials persuade

:18:57.:18:59.

people to part with their cash, and is it always done

:19:00.:19:04.

for the right reasons? Here's the journalist Alice Thomson

:19:05.:19:06.

with her soapbox on why we need state funding

:19:07.:19:08.

for our political parties. We all enjoy a nice lunch,

:19:09.:19:22.

but it seems politicians, especially our leaders, are being forced to

:19:23.:19:24.

eat more than the rest of us. Leading figures across all parties

:19:25.:19:28.

are expected to wine and dine influential businessmen

:19:29.:19:30.

and celebrities, in order to try to It's time we looked at alternatives

:19:31.:19:33.

- not least because of our In smart restaurants

:19:34.:19:39.

and boardrooms across London, We have Labour cosying up to

:19:40.:19:43.

the unions. Since Ed Miliband became leader,

:19:44.:19:49.

they've provided ?8 out of every The Tories host balls

:19:50.:19:53.

and auctions to win a drink with the Chancellor or a tennis match

:19:54.:19:58.

with the Prime Minister. In the first three months of this

:19:59.:20:00.

year, they raised ?6.6 million. As next year's general election

:20:01.:20:03.

looms, all the parties need to raise enough cash to pay for

:20:04.:20:06.

their general election campaigns. It's not enough to have

:20:07.:20:08.

a manifesto and candidates, So instead of focusing ideas,

:20:09.:20:10.

they are wasting time and energy on entertaining rich potential

:20:11.:20:15.

donors desperate for influence The solution is state funding

:20:16.:20:18.

of political parties. Spending limits should be cut

:20:19.:20:26.

and donations capped. Parties would then be forced to

:20:27.:20:28.

concentrate After all, there are more people

:20:29.:20:30.

signing up to the Caravan Club But they refuse to do this,

:20:31.:20:36.

worried that voters will recoil at having to pay more

:20:37.:20:44.

for the antics of this venal lot. They should find

:20:45.:20:47.

the courage to make their case. The Queen costs each

:20:48.:20:49.

taxpayer 56 pence a year. In return,

:20:50.:20:53.

we don't have to worry, she is and dining people for a stack

:20:54.:20:55.

of cash, to keep the show on road. That should be the example

:20:56.:20:59.

for all our politicians. Alice Thomson joins us now from that

:21:00.:21:05.

rather swanky restaurant. Are you saying that politics rarely is that

:21:06.:21:09.

correct, that is the only way to clean it out, to have state funding?

:21:10.:21:14.

It's not that it's corrupt, it is just that they waste an awful amount

:21:15.:21:19.

of time wining and dining, and have the Prime Minister spending that

:21:20.:21:22.

amount of time is a waste. It is the same with the unions, they are far

:21:23.:21:26.

too influential. It is not exactly corrupt but I think the worst it

:21:27.:21:29.

probably gets is that there are so many peers in the House of Lords who

:21:30.:21:32.

have given money to one of the parties. I just don't like that, I

:21:33.:21:35.

would prefer to give the money myself actually. I would not mind

:21:36.:21:41.

spending 40p a year. Dare I say it come you may be alone or in a very

:21:42.:21:45.

small minority, because generally people just don't want to give money

:21:46.:21:48.

in that way to the funding of political parties. It is not in

:21:49.:21:53.

fashion. It is not in fashion because of the ways MPs have

:21:54.:21:57.

behaved, but that is not to say it is wrong. I actually think it would

:21:58.:21:59.

rarely help politics and it would clean it up, and then you would get

:22:00.:22:03.

better people in the House of Lords, and also you would get the

:22:04.:22:06.

politicians concentrating on the right issues. I don't want them to

:22:07.:22:09.

spend a lot of time with very rich people and unions, I would like them

:22:10.:22:12.

to spend a lot of time with more normal people, campaigning and being

:22:13.:22:16.

in their constituency. But even if there was some state funding, even

:22:17.:22:20.

if people did give donations or there was more money coming from

:22:21.:22:24.

individual electors, wouldn't that still go on? Wouldn't there be

:22:25.:22:31.

wining and dining anyway? You're not going to end that whole industry in

:22:32.:22:34.

itself with state funding. I think they would be lobbying, but it would

:22:35.:22:39.

be more lobbying campaigns, and it would not be individual very rich

:22:40.:22:42.

people and the unions having much more sway than they would be able to

:22:43.:22:47.

have if the money was not involved. And you would get better people in

:22:48.:22:51.

the House of Lords. Stephen Crabb, are you convinced by that argument?

:22:52.:22:56.

I'm not. Alice herself said we do not have a corrupt system in the UK,

:22:57.:23:01.

actually the UK has one of the best systems are financing the business

:23:02.:23:04.

of politics. In Germany for example, you have a large amount of state

:23:05.:23:07.

funding and that does not tackle all the problems there either. The

:23:08.:23:12.

public would say what about MPs expenses, cash the question is, what

:23:13.:23:16.

about MPs being secretly filmed by your colleagues. That does say there

:23:17.:23:20.

is a level of corruption that might not be there with state funding. And

:23:21.:23:25.

all of that has led to improvements in the system, greater

:23:26.:23:26.

transparency, greater accountability, so the system is

:23:27.:23:30.

getting better. We need to go further, we need to have a cap on

:23:31.:23:33.

donations, screen out some of the wrong influence there is a system

:23:34.:23:37.

but we are getting better. It is an easy thing to knock your own

:23:38.:23:40.

political system but it is an awful lot better than so many others out

:23:41.:23:46.

there. As a party, we feel it should fall around ?50,000, the cap, we

:23:47.:23:50.

think that is an acceptable limit in somebody wanting to donate their own

:23:51.:23:54.

money they have turned to a political party. Do you ever think

:23:55.:23:58.

there will be state funding introduced? Wane ever ever? Let's

:23:59.:24:05.

talk about the next few elections. Certainly not in the foreseeable

:24:06.:24:09.

future. I think there is still a lack of trust in politicians,

:24:10.:24:17.

unfortunately. The MPs expenses scandal looms large. I am very

:24:18.:24:20.

synthetic to what Alice says. In terms of House of Lords, there is a

:24:21.:24:27.

much simpler solution, have an elected House of Lords to get around

:24:28.:24:31.

this phenomenon new speak about. I would certainly -- that you speak

:24:32.:24:35.

about. I would like to see a cap on donations, I think 50 grand is far

:24:36.:24:40.

too high. I do access the argument that politicians are spending quite

:24:41.:24:44.

a bit of time raising this kind of money. But, unfortunately, I think

:24:45.:24:49.

you have outlined, Jo, the public appetite, and I'm sure we will get a

:24:50.:24:52.

lot of responsiveness on Twitter, it is not really there for state

:24:53.:24:56.

funding. A lot of responsiveness on Twitter, it is not really there for

:24:57.:24:59.

state funding. It doesn't sound like more pay, but what I'm saying is

:25:00.:25:04.

what we will give you is more money for your party for you to do that so

:25:05.:25:08.

you can concentrate on all the potent issues. We are not saying we

:25:09.:25:14.

want more pay, let's be clear about that. The authority have told us. I

:25:15.:25:22.

think they are wrong, because in the public sector for example... But you

:25:23.:25:24.

haven't got a say in it, do you? This morning has brought

:25:25.:25:31.

an announcement of an important new line up; no, it's not

:25:32.:25:33.

the starting XI for this Saturday's Arsenal squad, it is, of course, the

:25:34.:25:36.

role allocations for Jean Claude Lord Hill is the British

:25:37.:25:39.

representative So let's take

:25:40.:25:42.

a look at what he ended up with, It is not quite a key job at the

:25:43.:26:05.

moment. There are other more important jobs. The economic one was

:26:06.:26:09.

one that Britain might have got, the internal market as well.

:26:10.:26:14.

The top economics position goes to Pierre Moscovici,

:26:15.:26:16.

a French Socialist, who will now be responsible for EU economic policy.

:26:17.:26:24.

This will pose questions about the EU's approach to deficit

:26:25.:26:27.

This particularly now that the French manners in there, perhaps

:26:28.:26:38.

Brussels won't be as strong on deficit reduction as it was before.

:26:39.:26:40.

Here's what Juncker had to say earlier this morning.

:26:41.:26:44.

We are at the beginning of a new commission. We have an exceptional

:26:45.:26:53.

opportunity, but also an obligation to make a fresh start and get down

:26:54.:26:59.

to work to address the very difficult geopolitical situation, to

:27:00.:27:04.

strengthen the economic recovery, and to build a united Europe that

:27:05.:27:09.

delivers jobs and growth to its citizens. I think I have the right

:27:10.:27:18.

team to do so. That was Jean-Claude Juncker, joining me now from

:27:19.:27:21.

Brussels a la Europe correspondent, Chris Morris. How did Jonathan Hill

:27:22.:27:26.

actually get that job? We didn't think he would get any of the top

:27:27.:27:30.

jobs, certainly not in financial services. The joke was he would be

:27:31.:27:34.

in charge of multilingualism, but David Cameron has pushed hard to get

:27:35.:27:40.

a senior economic job, and I think if you had offered Downing Street

:27:41.:27:44.

the job of Commissioner in charge of financial stability and financial

:27:45.:27:47.

services six weeks ago is they would bitten your hand. It involves

:27:48.:27:51.

supervision of banks and other matters which really affect the City

:27:52.:27:55.

of London, so I think what it is as quite a big olive branch, if you

:27:56.:27:59.

like, from Jean-Claude Juncker, because don't forget it was only a

:28:00.:28:01.

couple of months ago that Cameron said he was absolutely the wrong man

:28:02.:28:05.

for the job. And I don't think the Juncker team have forgotten that

:28:06.:28:13.

level of criticism. But they have put it to one side to get on with

:28:14.:28:16.

business. We are almost running out of time.

:28:17.:28:18.

There's just time to put you out of your misery, and give you

:28:19.:28:21.

All that rotting rubbish and the strikes should have been enough. It

:28:22.:28:29.

was also the year of the referendum on Scottish devolution, that was the

:28:30.:28:33.

one they lost, they won the 197, the Jeremy Thorpe trial, Stephen, you

:28:34.:28:41.

get to press the buzzer. And the winner

:28:42.:28:49.

The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.

:28:50.:28:53.

I'm off to Scotland for a special This Week live from Edinburgh,

:28:54.:28:57.

then I'll stay in Auld Reekie for a Daily Politics special on Friday.

:28:58.:29:00.

But don't worry, I'll be back here at noon tomorrow with all the

:29:01.:29:03.

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