09/09/2014 Daily Politics


09/09/2014

Jo Coburn is joined by former Conservative cabinet minister Kenneth Baker to discuss the latest political news, including a look ahead to the Scottish independence referendum.


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Transcript


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Good afternoon, and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:38.

The three pro-union parties bury their differences to offer Scotland

:00:39.:00:40.

a new timetable for more powers for the Scottish Parliament - but will

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it be enough to halt the apparent momentum behind the Yes campaign?

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Free schools, academies, specialist schools, technical colleges.

:00:49.:00:49.

There's an array of different schools on offer

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in England these days - but will they drive up standards or

:00:52.:00:54.

Baby boomers have more than enough money to fund their retirement

:00:55.:01:05.

according to new research - so is it time to cut their benefits?

:01:06.:01:12.

The South Yorkshire Police Commissioner will tell a Commons

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committee why he won't resign over the Rotherham child abuse scandal.

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What's happened to the champions of accountable policing?

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All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole of the programme

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today is the former Conservative Cabinet Minister Kenneth Baker.

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First this afternoon, as we've got a former Conservative

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Party chairman with us, let's turn to the party's fortunes.

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A poll by Lord Ashcroft yesterday put Labour seven points ahead -

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though other recent polls have shown a narrower lead.

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Why is it that Labour has a strong lead in one poll and is still ahead

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this most others, when according to the Conservatives, and the

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Government in general, the economy is recovering? Well, I am not

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worried about the existing polls because when the election approaches

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as we discovered in Scotland they get closer and they will get closer

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when the main factor of the next general election will be

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Presidential between Cameron and Miliband. You are relying on the

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personality of the leadership. If the polls close, I put it to you

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that Labour still on paper, because of all the reasons that have been

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set out, because of boundaries and the way the election process is

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carried out, Labour still wins To be even we have to be nine points

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ahead. That was 2010 on polling day, we didn't get through the boundary

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change bill, which is a mistake, so we have a huge disadvantage, but

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there are other factors coming in to bear on the election, not least

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Scotland. It is a different constitutional world we will live

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in, either way, whether they go yes or no, there is a huge change

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heading up for Britain. What about issues where the Conservatives and

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many Conservative MPs feel that they are being challenged by UK

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Independence Party. The issue of immigration for example? UKIP, the

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interesting analysis of UKIP support is the basic support of UKIP comes

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from the old British working class. They are the core of UKIP votes. And

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that will affect Labour seats as well as Conservative seats, it is

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not only a down side for the Conservative, it is a down side also

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for Labour. This is why Miliband is so concerned, he is quiet about it.

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I will bring breaking news to you and we will get your response which

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is that David Cameron, the Prime Minister, Ed Miliband the Leader of

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the Labour Party have agreed to cancel their weekly Question Time,

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Prime Minister's Questions clash, to travel to Scotland. Now, what do you

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say to that? That is very good of them. It shows how worried they are.

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There is no doubt that it is neck and neck in Scotland now, and they

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have the great advantage, in this referendum of having the best thing

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to vote for. It is much better to be saying yes, yes, yes to something

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than no, no, no. And some, one of the first big victory in the

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question, the question should have within do you want to stay in the

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United Kingdom? That is the answer to yes. The actual question of the

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referendum is do you want to have a free Scotland, yes. No is on the

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back foot. Has the become clear in the last few days. What impact will

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it have, seeing both David Cameron, Ed Miliband and in fact Nick Clegg,

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all three main UK party leaders will be in Scotland. They won't appear

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Tottenham together for obvious reason, do you think that will have

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a major impact on the tightening of the polls. It is intensify concern

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of those who want no, and the undecided, it is the undecided now,

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the people who have de Vrijjed are 50-50. You have 14, 15% undecided.

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You have to go for those, the fact the three leading political figures

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are going to Scotland to show their concern will be helpful. Do you

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think that David Cameron as the leader of the Tory party, as well as

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being Prime Minister, will actually put off potential voters in Scotland

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on the issue of independence, as many people have said, which is why

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he has been relatively low-key in this campaign, and they have allowed

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Gordon Brown, a former Labour Prime Minister to take the lead with this

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latest offer. It is basically the Labour vote you are going for, that

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is why Brian was there yesterday. Miliband is going tomorrow. They are

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doing that because it the Labour vote that is undecided. You see,

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what is interesting about this, the Labour Party went for a Scottish

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Parliament to diffuse Scottish nationalism and it failed. The

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Conservatives didn't support it at the time Agreed. They are now in the

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position of being worried by it. If the Scot Nates win and they go yes

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the Labour Party in Scotland will be on the retreat. Will David Cameron

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survive? Well, that is very interesting, will he resign or not?

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Yes or no? It is not as simple as that. There is a precedent when

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George III lost the colonies he didn't abdicate but his Prime

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Minister offered to resign, and the king didn't accept it. So the Queen

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may not accept the resignation if it the made. Should he? That is a

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personal decision for him, but the Queen may not accept it, because who

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does she ask to be the Prime Minister? Who forms the Government?

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They may lead to a immediate general election. We will continue talking

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about the question of independence in Scotland, we will come back to

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this issue that David Cameron and Ed Miliband won't appear at Prime

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Minister's Questions. It is not being cancelled. William Hague and

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Harriet Harman will face each other, so David Cameron and Ed Miliband

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will join Nick Clegg up in Scotland. I think we can talk to our political

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editor Nick Robinson. This is a dramatic news, isn't it, out of

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Westminster, if we are going to have all three party leaders in Scotland.

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Does this smack of panic? It does, it reveals really, the grow of

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anxiety there is among Westminster party leaders that Scotland is about

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to vote, not just to go her own way but to break up the United Kingdom

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to end Britain as we know it. Now, the decision was taken, I am told by

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David Cameron and Ed Miliband when they met to discuss the Scottish

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referendum, straight after the Commons statement on the NATO

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summit, yesterday afternoon. But, for people who think, well, so what,

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it is like missing a day in the office, it is more important than

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that, one of the question constitutional duties of a Prime

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Minister is to face questions in the House of Commons. One of the key

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duties of the leader of the opposition to lead that questioning,

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for them to voluntarily give that up in agreement with Nick Clegg, the

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Leader of the Labour Party, in order to head to Scotland, is pretty

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dramatic, and shows just how concerned they are. They are not

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going to appear together which perhaps isn't all together

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surprising, what what message are they each going to give to Scottish

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voter, will they differ in that sense? It is the message in their

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joint statement, we want you to stay. This is modelled, I think, on

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what was used by pro Canadian campaigner, in the Quebec

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referendum. Remember, those of you that know this, what happened in

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Quebec just as in Scotland the yes side pulled ahead, there was a panic

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that Canada might be broken up and one of the things that is said to

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have pulled that back, in a very very narrow victory in that

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referendum, for the no campaign, is the statement coming from the rest

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of Canada, in this case, the rest of the UK, that we want you to stay.

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That is why, for example, you are seeing Ed Miliband saying that the

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saltire would be raised in Liverpool, along with the lead other

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the City Council. That is why it will be flown over Downing Street

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later today, that is why there will be an encouragement by all the

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political party, their members and supporters and no doubt to people

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who run Town Halls throughout England, Wales and Northern Ireland,

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fly the flag to show you want Scotland to stay. And this of course

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after headlines today, saying Gordon Brown, a former Prime Minister, was

:09:15.:09:18.

going to save the union and save the day. Yes, in a sense what was vital

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for them about yesterday, is the fight back was led by a Scot, in

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Scotland, and by Labour, so some people thought than Gordon Brown had

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stolen the Tories's thunder or a government announcement, it wasn't

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as simple as that, the unionist parties have been talking with each

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forefor a long time. What was true is that Gordon Brown said "I am the

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guy who can do this now." And David Cameron is seen as too English and

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too Tory. Ed Miliband's trust ratings in the latest polls are as

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bad as David Cameron's which is remarkable, given he the Leader of

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the Labour Party, Alistair Darling got a bloody nose from Alex Salmond

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and therefore the view was this must be seen and seen to be a Labour

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initiative, did, could you count number of times they told you it was

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a Labour initiative ged in virtually every sentence but it had been

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co-ordinated with all the parties behind the scenes. It was Gordon

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Brown as we have been hearing from our political end to who set out a

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timetable to deliver more powers for Scotland the event of a no vote in

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next weeks referendum. It was better together's responsibility to polls

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suggesting that support for the two camps is neck and neck. The poll

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which has yes one point ahead of no, once undecideds are. A new poll was

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released today. Gordon Brown's timetable endorsed by the three main

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parties would seal work beginning on new legislation the day after the

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referendum. By the end of October, a command paper would be published by

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the Government setting out the proposals and a White Paper would be

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published by the end of November. Finally, there would be draft

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legislation by the end of January, what mared next week Scotland is set

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to gain new powers under the 2012 Scotland Act. From 2016 Holyrood

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will have the power to vary income tax by ten pence and borrow more

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money. The Scottish Government will have power over air gun,

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drink-driving and speeding limits. At the moment, the party's differ on

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what further power should be given to Scotland. The Conservatives says

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Holyrood should have full income tax powers. Labour would volcanic ash

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Ritz and the Liberal Democrats who want a more federal UK, would give

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Scotland further control over taxation including inher tanth tans

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tax and income tax. We are hoping to be joined by Blair McDougall of the

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better together campaign and we are joined by Angus report son. Welcome.

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Let us get your response to this dramatic news. David Cameron and Ed

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Miliband are travelling to Scotland, they are going to try and say to

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Scottish voters, stay with the union. Yes, you can literally smell

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the panic here on College Green as the Westminster establishment is

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going into meltdown, really important for you viewers elsewhere

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in the UK, to hear the numbers because they haven't been told them

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yet, that support for yes is up six, support for no is down six and we

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are seeing a projected turn out of 84% in the referendum, which is

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tremendously good news for yes. Now what we are seeing in Scotland, is

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the panicked reaction with the three London-based parties, rewarming an

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announcement on minimal further devolution, which, as I understand

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it, is only going to give the Scottish Parliament and Government

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control of only 30% of Scottish tax revenue, as opposed to independence

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and 100%, and all the -- all ready that proposal is falling apart today

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in Scotland, so I guess what is happening is that the three UK

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leaders are realising they have to get involved and do something, I

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suppose one of the good things that might come out of it is David

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Cameron might find a backbone when he is in Scotland and debate Alex

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Salmond. You have heard it here first! Let us take up the general

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thrust which is there the panic, that seems to be fairly clear, they

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are throwing the kitchen sink at this, which could pressuredown,

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because there is still a significant number of undecided and don't knows

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in Scotland, you have the former Labour Prime Minister Gordon Brown,

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who is taking the lead on bringing forward this timetable. We have

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heard the other three party leaders are going to be in Scotland. You are

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under an awful lot of pressure, because what you are promising is

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going to take longer to deliver to Scotland than what is being offered

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by the better together campaign. They will be able to offer more

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powers, a version of Home Rule says Gordon Brown ahead of your 2016

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timetable. Did you say the pressure is on the yes campaign? The pressure

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is on the no campaign. It is tight Their support is down and there is a

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huge transfer of people not just from undecided. People from no,

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today, one of the most significant business leaders in Scotland, Ian

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Gordon, who was head of the Defence Industry Association has declared he

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has moved from no to yes. He is not alone, there are people all over

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Scotland deciding. That is why it is panic stations.

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Let's put that to Blair McDougall, who is joining us from Glasgow. Are

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you panicked? This is extraordinary. The reason Angus is so upset, and

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can I say, it is great to see him at Westminster, good to see that he can

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travel down here to be on television, even if he could not go

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to Westminster to vote on the bedroom tax. We want more powers in

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Scotland, but without the huge economic risks of separation. We can

:15:16.:15:21.

now see that despite them saying for 2.5 years, every time concerns were

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raised about jobs, or about the NHS, they told us we were scaremongering,

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but we can see in the real reaction of the markets, where ?2.3 billion

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was taken off the price of Scottish companies yesterday. These things

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are real. Yes, we are giving greater clarity, greater guarantees to

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people about what they will get with a no vote, but what that does, along

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with the reaction from the market, is that it exposes the fact that

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there are no guarantees from the other side whatsoever. So why do you

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need David Cameron and Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband to rescue your

:15:59.:16:02.

campaign? That is not the case at all, we have been doing this for

:16:03.:16:06.

months, talking about the powers that will be coming to the Scottish

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Parliament. There has been a clear consensus about bringing more

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welfare powers to Scotland. What we are seeing is the parties coming

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together and throwing their full authority behind it, because this is

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where people are making up their mind. The other side cannot even

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tell us what currency we would use. We, on the other hand, want to give

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voters absolute clarity. I can hear Angus laughing down the line, but

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maybe he can stop laughing and tell us why he did not come down to vote

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against the bedroom tax. Under the current settlement, does the

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Scottish Government have complete control over how to run, and how

:16:45.:16:49.

much money to spend on, the NHS in Scotland? It is a hand-me-down

:16:50.:16:56.

budget from Westminster. It is determined by how much money is

:16:57.:17:00.

transferred... You asked me a question, if you will allow me to

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finish... One of the great advantages with a yes vote is that

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we will be in charge of 100% of Scotland's budget. Even with this

:17:10.:17:13.

latest plan, the anti-Independence parties do not trust the government

:17:14.:17:18.

of Parliament Scotland to determine more than 30% of Scotland's budget.

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On the bedroom tax, it is important to clarify, when there was a

:17:25.:17:27.

substantive vote on it, I voted against it, and Labour MPs

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abstained, I am sorry. I will interrupt this little argument

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between yourselves, I want to get back to the question about the NHS,

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because you do have power over policy on the NHS. You can choose

:17:41.:17:45.

how much of the block grant to spend on the NHS, you can increase income

:17:46.:17:49.

tax to a limited extent. If you wanted to put more money into the

:17:50.:17:54.

NHS, you could. So I put it to you that you are putting up a strawman,

:17:55.:17:58.

saying to Scottish voters that the NHS in Scotland is under threat

:17:59.:18:02.

without Independence - that is not true. The keyword you used was

:18:03.:18:07.

limited, which is exactly correct. If you will let me answer, again...

:18:08.:18:17.

You are not answering my question. You have not given me a chance. What

:18:18.:18:22.

is correct to say is that Scotland's budget is handed down

:18:23.:18:26.

from Westminster, and with a yes vote, we will change all of that.

:18:27.:18:30.

But is why so many people around Scotland are saying the best way to

:18:31.:18:35.

protect it, as opposed to the privatisation route being pursued

:18:36.:18:40.

down here, is a yes vote. These are the reasons why the no campaign is

:18:41.:18:43.

totally rattled, they have lost the initiative, they are going to lose

:18:44.:18:47.

the referendum. Who does have control over the NHS in Scotland,

:18:48.:18:53.

Blair McDougall? We do. We have 100% control over the NHS, which means we

:18:54.:18:57.

can protect the budget for the NHS in Scotland. That is a precise quote

:18:58.:19:03.

from the manifesto which Angus wrote in 2011 for the Scottish Parliament

:19:04.:19:07.

elections. This is a scare story they have concocted. The interesting

:19:08.:19:14.

thing is, firstly, the SNP government themselves are overseeing

:19:15.:19:18.

a massive increase in private provision in the NHS in Scotland.

:19:19.:19:21.

This is total hypocrisy from them, to cover up the fact that they know

:19:22.:19:27.

that the real threat to the NHS in Scotland is the huge ?6 billion of

:19:28.:19:31.

additional cuts, over and above UK cuts, which have been identified by

:19:32.:19:35.

the Institute for Fiscal Studies. Why in this latest offer that we are

:19:36.:19:40.

hearing about does the no campaign say, we will pledge to protect the

:19:41.:19:44.

NHS in Scotland from further austerity, if Scotland has 100%

:19:45.:19:52.

control? Well, the tax powers which are within this often means that

:19:53.:19:55.

Scotland can make decisions about public spending. What percentage of

:19:56.:20:05.

Scotland's budget? The SNP government has chosen not to spend

:20:06.:20:09.

money on health. This is the ridiculous side of the SNP, who have

:20:10.:20:14.

a terrible record on health in Scotland, and who are trying to

:20:15.:20:20.

blame the government down south. Blair, what percentage of

:20:21.:20:24.

Scotland's budget will be determined by the Scottish Parliament, the

:20:25.:20:28.

Scottish Government, under your campaign's proposals, is it more or

:20:29.:20:33.

less than 30%, simple question? We have set out the plans in terms of

:20:34.:20:39.

giving more powers to Scotland. There are disagreements on the

:20:40.:20:44.

details, for example, do we go on three quarters of income tax, or do

:20:45.:20:52.

we do 100% of income tax? For you, that will be enough reason to break

:20:53.:20:56.

up a 300-year-old union. The only tax power you really want to bring

:20:57.:21:00.

to Scotland I know is a power to bring a massive tax cut to the

:21:01.:21:04.

wealthiest companies in Scotland. You talk about simple questions,

:21:05.:21:08.

last night, Alex Salmond could not tell us how much that huge tax cut

:21:09.:21:12.

for the richest companies in Scotland would cost, so maybe you

:21:13.:21:17.

could answer that question? You will have to ask him on another

:21:18.:21:22.

occasion. Thank you both very much. So, people in Scotland seem to be

:21:23.:21:25.

tied on the future of their country, but what about the

:21:26.:21:29.

English? Ed Miliband was in Liverpool today, encouraging the

:21:30.:21:33.

people in England to urge Scots to reject independence, raising the

:21:34.:21:36.

sole tyre over Liverpool Town Hall, and asking other councils to follow

:21:37.:21:41.

suit. We want people in cities, towns and villages across the United

:21:42.:21:46.

Kingdom to fly the Scottish flag, because we want to send a clear

:21:47.:21:49.

message to the people of Scotland, please stay with us, because we

:21:50.:21:54.

believe we are strong together. And we are starting here in Liverpool,

:21:55.:21:58.

to send the message that we can achieve equality and social justice

:21:59.:22:02.

together. We are now joined by two English men

:22:03.:22:05.

with differing views on how Scotland should vote, the historian Tom

:22:06.:22:10.

Holland, who is urging people in Scotland to vote no. Simon Jenkins

:22:11.:22:13.

thinks they should vote yes to independence. Why has it taken this

:22:14.:22:22.

poll, 11 days before the referendum, for the rest of the UK to wake up to

:22:23.:22:26.

the prospect of the break-up of the union? Well, I think people have

:22:27.:22:32.

been aware of the risks. Myself and fellow historian Dan Snow wrote a

:22:33.:22:36.

letter six months ago, and we have spent the last months getting

:22:37.:22:39.

assorted celebrities, all kinds of people, to sign it. Since we put

:22:40.:22:43.

that up, we have been having more and more people from across England,

:22:44.:22:48.

Wales and Northern Ireland putting their signatures to it, because

:22:49.:22:50.

ultimately, what matters is that when people to wake up, there is a

:22:51.:22:55.

framework for them to express their emotions of admiration for the

:22:56.:22:59.

Scottish people, and let them know that we in the rest of the united

:23:00.:23:05.

into want those bonds of citizenship to be maintained. So this is

:23:06.:23:08.

demonstrating big love, if you like, for Scotland. Do you think that

:23:09.:23:13.

emotional connection has been missing? I think there is a kind of

:23:14.:23:17.

awkwardness about expressing Patria to some, perhaps, and expressing the

:23:18.:23:23.

idea of Britishness. We are an uptight people, that is the

:23:24.:23:28.

stereotype. But I think the time has come where we have to make it

:23:29.:23:34.

absolutely clear, it is up to the Scots to decide whether they go, but

:23:35.:23:39.

it would be terrible for them to go thinking that the rest of the United

:23:40.:23:43.

Kingdom did not care. What is your view, it is everyone's union, isn't

:23:44.:23:48.

it, it will affect everyone? I do not disagree, I would be sorry to

:23:49.:23:53.

see Scotland go, as I would be sorry to see Wales go, but I do not think

:23:54.:23:57.

it is as big an issue as it has begun to seem. If I was a Scot, I

:23:58.:24:01.

would think, this has gone on long enough, there is no such thing as

:24:02.:24:06.

full independence any more, the days of these big confederations are

:24:07.:24:10.

over, all of Europe is breaking up, in a sense, that time has come. I

:24:11.:24:14.

think we all need to calm down a bit, it has got completely

:24:15.:24:17.

hysterical. I do not think it would make a big difference either to the

:24:18.:24:21.

Scots or the English, but if I was a Scotsman, I think I would say,

:24:22.:24:25.

enough is enough of this relationship. Are you going to

:24:26.:24:30.

profess your emotional connection? I married a Scot, our three children

:24:31.:24:34.

went to Scottish universities. That neither of the last two are quite

:24:35.:24:38.

right. The real solution is a federal solution for the whole of

:24:39.:24:45.

the United Kingdom, that is how you keep this lot together. Either a

:24:46.:24:50.

solution of a completely independent Scotland, or a devo max Scotland,

:24:51.:24:56.

does not really answer it. That is exactly why I am so keen for the

:24:57.:25:01.

Scots to stay, because the union has not been a frozen entity, it has

:25:02.:25:06.

continuously evolved, as before them the kingdoms of Scotland and England

:25:07.:25:10.

evolved. I think the traditions and values and ideals which the Scots

:25:11.:25:14.

have brought to Britain, to this great merging of traditions, is

:25:15.:25:20.

precisely is what has made Britain such a great nation. Looking at the

:25:21.:25:24.

optimism which is on display in Scotland at the moment, what I am

:25:25.:25:29.

hoping is that the Scots will vote to stay with us and channel that

:25:30.:25:34.

optimism for the good of everyone in this kingdom. Why in your mind is

:25:35.:25:38.

independence better for the Scots? I think the days when you had these

:25:39.:25:42.

comp located confederacy is, like the European Union, they are over.

:25:43.:25:48.

Small, countries now want to be independent. Small is beautiful.

:25:49.:25:55.

Small countries do better than bigger countries, it is in control

:25:56.:25:59.

at. Luxembourg does better than France. But leave that to one side.

:26:00.:26:11.

-- incontrovertible. Sovereignty is clearly desperately wanted by at

:26:12.:26:15.

least half of Scots. I do not think it is a bad thing, self-government,

:26:16.:26:20.

we want to detach ourselves from the European Union, to a certain

:26:21.:26:23.

extent. People believe in governing themselves nowadays, they are grown

:26:24.:26:27.

up, they are mature. They do not want to be told what to do by the

:26:28.:26:31.

English. I think it is a sensible decision, and we should not get so

:26:32.:26:35.

excited about it. There are quite a number of people who would actually

:26:36.:26:40.

like to see Scotland go independent, they do not want to see promises of,

:26:41.:26:45.

we will protect your NHS from cuts, what about the NHS in England, what

:26:46.:26:50.

about all of these other promises? The Scots are being offered

:26:51.:26:54.

everything, and the English will feel, hang on, why are we doing

:26:55.:26:58.

this? I think that is very much a minority. Is it? I think a

:26:59.:27:02.

substantial minority would like Scotland to stay. I think also one

:27:03.:27:09.

of the risks of Scotland going independent, and as you say, people

:27:10.:27:13.

in England are suddenly waking up to this, and there is a mood of alarm,

:27:14.:27:17.

and of pain, and I think that when people are reject it, that is when

:27:18.:27:22.

attitudes tend to freeze. I suspect that the one person who will benefit

:27:23.:27:29.

from this will be England's Alex Salmond, who is clearly Nigel

:27:30.:27:34.

Farage. Do you think the 2015 general election, if there is a

:27:35.:27:37.

victory for the yes vote, will have to be postponed? I do not think it

:27:38.:27:42.

would be. I think there is a possibility of having a general

:27:43.:27:45.

election before Christmas if there is a yes vote, because there is a

:27:46.:27:52.

huge constitutional model. The welfare benefits of Scotland with

:27:53.:27:56.

English money. That is not a fair situation. The English feel this

:27:57.:28:01.

very strongly. What is going to happen in Northern Ireland, what is

:28:02.:28:06.

going to happen in Wales? You are playing with the whole constitution

:28:07.:28:09.

of our country, which could be the subject of a general election.

:28:10.:28:12.

Whoever wins that election would have to years. If we do not have an

:28:13.:28:17.

early general election, the coalition government would have to

:28:18.:28:20.

do part of the planning, then another government might come in in

:28:21.:28:24.

May and change a lot of it. I have no doubt that a yes vote would be

:28:25.:28:30.

pretty disastrous, constitutionally. Both in Scotland and in the rest of

:28:31.:28:34.

the United Kingdom, which is one of the major reasons I hope they will

:28:35.:28:39.

vote no. But beyond that, more than any of these issues, this is not

:28:40.:28:44.

ultimately I think about finance or economics, ultimately, this is about

:28:45.:28:48.

identity, and whether those of us in this country will be able to

:28:49.:28:52.

continue to be simultaneously English or Scottish or Welsh or

:28:53.:28:55.

Northern Ireland and British, or have those identities diced up and

:28:56.:29:02.

demarcated? What do you say about identity, Simon Jenkins, because you

:29:03.:29:05.

have attended lots of independence and debates? I think you have got to

:29:06.:29:15.

get a grip on the single fact, which is that Scotland, Wales and Northern

:29:16.:29:18.

Ireland have been dreadfully badly run by England for the past 25

:29:19.:29:23.

years, they really have been badly run. Have they not done well to some

:29:24.:29:28.

extent, financially? Yes, they have. They are literally

:29:29.:29:31.

old-fashioned dependencies. There is no reason why Scotland should not be

:29:32.:29:36.

as rich as Denmark. Why shouldn't Wales be poorer than the rest of

:29:37.:29:40.

Britain when it used to be richer than the rest of Britain? These are

:29:41.:29:43.

not successes. I think an independent Scotland would be a

:29:44.:29:47.

pretty terrible place for ten years, but after that it would be a very

:29:48.:29:52.

exciting place. This is like a kind of 1950s prep school teacher, saying

:29:53.:29:55.

having a cold shower would be good for you. Sometimes it is good for

:29:56.:30:00.

you, it is patronising to say it is not. Those days are over. Let me

:30:01.:30:06.

come back to the celebrity support, because many people might think it

:30:07.:30:12.

is rather patronising, so what about getting ordinary people, if you feel

:30:13.:30:17.

they are so passionate, to support the campaign? That is what they did

:30:18.:30:21.

in Quebec, and they said it tipped the balance in favour of staying

:30:22.:30:23.

together, rather than independence. The sway of the luminaries we have

:30:24.:30:38.

got, 200 people says something about how strongly everyone in Britain

:30:39.:30:44.

feels. But I also think that the reason I am here is because I

:30:45.:30:48.

organised that letter, the reason that attention is being fixed on

:30:49.:30:51.

that letter and we are getting signatures from across Britain is

:30:52.:30:55.

because the celebrities blazed the cause. The only reason we wrote it

:30:56.:31:01.

is we want more and more people to go to the website and sign up to it.

:31:02.:31:06.

You are a better historian and home fission. I would say one thing, in

:31:07.:31:11.

praise of you, you were positive about the virtue of hanging

:31:12.:31:15.

together. That has been missing from the no campaign, it has been on the

:31:16.:31:18.

back foot, exaggerating the difficulty, what you wanted somebody

:31:19.:31:22.

to say from the beginning, look, we love you, we want you with us and we

:31:23.:31:26.

like that sort of thing, that is why the three leaders are going to

:31:27.:31:34.

Scotland, they are injecting pops it I have. . The point about Scotland,

:31:35.:31:38.

Scotland economically, is the richest part of the country, after

:31:39.:31:44.

London and the south-east. Do you want to answer that briefly.

:31:45.:31:50.

Any figures can be countermanded. I am sure the Government would say

:31:51.:31:56.

that. Simon Jenkins and Tom Holland thank you.

:31:57.:31:58.

Next, whether it's a free school, faith school or foundation school,

:31:59.:32:01.

they all come in different shapes and sizes.

:32:02.:32:03.

It means there's a long list of confusing education lingo

:32:04.:32:05.

for parents and pupils to get their heads around.

:32:06.:32:07.

And across England there's a relatively new breed of schools

:32:08.:32:10.

called University Technical Colleges - the brainchild of our guest

:32:11.:32:12.

These aren't toy tool, they are the real thing. At industry standard

:32:13.:32:28.

they are normally found on the factory floor, so this might not

:32:29.:32:32.

look like your average school, and it isn't. This is a rare specimen, a

:32:33.:32:39.

UTC or University Technical College.

:32:40.:32:43.

University Technical College are secondary schools for

:32:44.:32:45.

14-19-year-old, they are taxpayer funded, flee to go to and they are

:32:46.:32:51.

not selective. They teach the main academic subjects but the emphasis

:32:52.:32:54.

is on practical and technical learning, and they are different

:32:55.:32:58.

from other schools because they have to be sponsored by university, with

:32:59.:33:04.

backing from businesses too. So no prizes for guessing which

:33:05.:33:08.

London employer is supporting royal Greenwich UTC. Yes, that is right.

:33:09.:33:15.

Transport for London. Mike Sharp is the principle here and admits they

:33:16.:33:19.

need to work hard to get the school noticed by parents We have advert

:33:20.:33:24.

fire, we have our face on the backs of bus, we send out mail shots, we

:33:25.:33:31.

get media coverage, once the message gets out, people can look round and

:33:32.:33:34.

see what we do, then it is relatively easy to sell it. You have

:33:35.:33:39.

to get them here first. 17 new University Technical College s

:33:40.:33:42.

opened this September. That means there are 30 across England and it

:33:43.:33:47.

is expected 57 will be opened by 2016. Parents and pupils already

:33:48.:33:52.

have to pick their way through a long and at times confusing list of

:33:53.:33:56.

choice, University Technical College s are the latest kids on the

:33:57.:34:00.

education block, there is other free schools and state schools of course.

:34:01.:34:05.

Then there is academy, faith schools and grammar school, plus special

:34:06.:34:11.

school, Community Schools, and foundation schools, not forgetting

:34:12.:34:15.

private school, city technical colleges and studio schools For me

:34:16.:34:19.

there were lots I could have gone to, since I wanted to become a civil

:34:20.:34:25.

engineer this had the courses most schools wouldn't do. I wanted to

:34:26.:34:31.

study architecture in my future, because the school does BTEC

:34:32.:34:35.

construction, not many do that so I decided to come here. Keeping a

:34:36.:34:39.

close eye on University Technical College is the Tory peer Lord Lucas,

:34:40.:34:46.

the editor of the Good Schools Guide be so few UCTs how much diversity

:34:47.:34:51.

are they providing Not much. There ought to be 1,000 of them. Give them

:34:52.:34:58.

time. It is right to build them slowly otherwise you make too many

:34:59.:35:01.

mistakes, if you start with a find and how they work and build that

:35:02.:35:06.

good practise, it is easier to make something that works well. The

:35:07.:35:10.

principle at royal Greenwich says ambitions here are high, with two of

:35:11.:35:15.

its pupils applying to Cambridge. But University Technical College s

:35:16.:35:18.

still have some way to go, before they become a mainstream choice for

:35:19.:35:22.

parents and pupils. And we're joined now by Fiona Miller

:35:23.:35:25.

of Comprehensive Future and Lord Baker, whose University Technical

:35:26.:35:28.

Colleges were featured in that 30 of them in England at the moment,

:35:29.:35:40.

but given we have such a shortage of engineers, and scientist, wouldn't

:35:41.:35:43.

we be better teaching those subjects, in all schools? Well, all

:35:44.:35:50.

schools do take science for example, but to do the engineering you, the

:35:51.:35:55.

equipment for that college is ?1 million. No school could that. This

:35:56.:35:59.

that school for two days a week the youngsters are making and designing

:36:00.:36:03.

things with their hands on a long Walker working day from 8.30 to

:36:04.:36:09.

five. The other time is spent doing GCSE subjects, we should have had

:36:10.:36:15.

them 50 years ago. We had them in 1945 and they were closed by

:36:16.:36:19.

snobbery, in the last four years we Magged to get it off the grouped. To

:36:20.:36:24.

create approvals for 57 new schools in four years, is a record. Do you

:36:25.:36:30.

agree there is a real demand for specialist schools like this,

:36:31.:36:33.

because we have such an acute shortage of those skill, and they

:36:34.:36:37.

are not taught in the same way in comprehensive state schools? I think

:36:38.:36:42.

there is a very urgent need to address the fact that vocational

:36:43.:36:47.

high quality skills training has been the Cinderella of the education

:36:48.:36:51.

system for too long. Putting them into separate institution, I am not

:36:52.:36:57.

convince. Why? How do you know they will be in the areas where you need

:36:58.:37:02.

them? How can you put a school into that where there is a shortage of

:37:03.:37:06.

places and you take pupils ousmt my concern about this whole situation

:37:07.:37:10.

we are this is we have so many different types of schools set up,

:37:11.:37:14.

governs in different way, managed in different ways. It is part of a

:37:15.:37:18.

whole to meet the need there is. We place them where there is a need.

:37:19.:37:23.

Local ploughiers come to us, in Scarborough for example, or right

:37:24.:37:27.

over the country, in Leeds, man chest e Liverpool and in the

:37:28.:37:32.

south-west, in Plymouth and a town like Newton Abbot. They say we can't

:37:33.:37:38.

employ y youngster, they are not employable. Our record... Not by the

:37:39.:37:46.

choice of a child who might want to do engineering? So therefore it is

:37:47.:37:49.

driven by the demands of the economy, I agree with you, but that

:37:50.:37:53.

is the biggest problem facing the country, the skills mismatch. That

:37:54.:37:57.

is a massive shortage of skills. The English education system has failed.

:37:58.:38:04.

It is a waste of talent... But it is a disgrace. Go for 1,000 University

:38:05.:38:11.

Technical College s. Or offer a broader curriculum They can't do it

:38:12.:38:17.

with the intensity we do. All I am saying there needs to be a planned a

:38:18.:38:21.

pro proven so you can offer this to pupils where ever they are. We have

:38:22.:38:29.

had the binary approach where it has been a disaster. Can I ask one thing

:38:30.:38:35.

about the standards and you can talk about what you are so pleased about.

:38:36.:38:41.

Standard are important, one can argue about the shortages and

:38:42.:38:43.

filling a need. Standards are important. There have been three

:38:44.:38:50.

inspections so far of the college, which have produced two grade three

:38:51.:38:54.

and an inadequate one. Are you disappointed? Those are the first

:38:55.:38:59.

round. I am disappointed. What we found, what that found is, we found

:39:00.:39:03.

a huge improvement in maths, they deal with numbers all the time. From

:39:04.:39:08.

what? A very poor standard. They are measured when they come in, we get

:39:09.:39:14.

high results in math. We get 100% in the technical subjects, what is

:39:15.:39:20.

difficult for us is English, because the English education is very bad.

:39:21.:39:26.

Does that worry you? That is not true, because almost 80% of English

:39:27.:39:31.

schools are judged outstanding.le but I think this goes to the heart

:39:32.:39:35.

of the point your film referred to about the different types of

:39:36.:39:41.

schools, who holds them to can't, I don't know, but I think they are

:39:42.:39:45.

contracted to Government... I want to move on. The record we are, which

:39:46.:39:50.

many don't have is when we have levers at 16 or 18, no-one is so far

:39:51.:39:55.

joined the ranks of the unemployed. There has been no... This is all our

:39:56.:40:00.

school, all our schools that have had levers so far. The other local

:40:01.:40:04.

schools in Greenwich can't say that. The other schools across the country

:40:05.:40:07.

can't say that. One of the things you have accepted that standards are

:40:08.:40:12.

improving in state schools, I put it to you it is improveling because

:40:13.:40:15.

there is more competition in the say it sec store, there is a wider

:40:16.:40:19.

choice, particularly in urban areas and that has pushed up standards in

:40:20.:40:23.

all of those schools but particularly in what one would call

:40:24.:40:29.

the local comprehensive. There is more accountability, it has helped

:40:30.:40:33.

to raise standards, Ofsted, the performance tables no doubt about

:40:34.:40:37.

it. And other schools. Sp Teaching has got better, that is what we

:40:38.:40:43.

need. Why has it got better? Under Governments, they have put emphasis.

:40:44.:40:47.

Choice, choice. Choice has been increased on a massive scale. The

:40:48.:40:52.

emphasis has been put on recruiting good people into teaching, the

:40:53.:40:57.

quality of leadership, I have been a school governor for 20 year, is

:40:58.:41:01.

higher than when my children first started school. It's a combination

:41:02.:41:05.

of lots of different factor, you can't leave to it the market on its

:41:06.:41:11.

own. One final pointor, go back Scotland, one of the things people

:41:12.:41:14.

in Scotland look at what goes on in England and the drift to

:41:15.:41:17.

privatisation which is what I fear... That is a different subject.

:41:18.:41:22.

. Are you calling for the dismantling of schools that are, not

:41:23.:41:27.

all of them but some faith schools and many of the academies, no, so

:41:28.:41:32.

what you are saying... Particularly on behalf of parents you have

:41:33.:41:36.

different schools with different admissions criteria. If you think

:41:37.:41:42.

that the English education is doing so well, why are there are 750,000

:41:43.:41:47.

young people, boys and girls who are unemployed at this moment in time

:41:48.:41:52.

who have gone through 11 years of free education. That is a scandal.

:41:53.:41:57.

It needs to improve. But that doesn't mean it isn't improving.

:41:58.:42:03.

750,000! You should be representing your Government. 50,000... It is a

:42:04.:42:12.

disgrace. UTCs are doing something about it. Final word there.

:42:13.:42:15.

Is there such a thing as "over-saving"?

:42:16.:42:17.

Yes, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which has

:42:18.:42:20.

released new research today, carried out in England, saying that many

:42:21.:42:23.

couples born in the 1940s have more money than they need to maintain

:42:24.:42:26.

IFS Director Paul Johnson is in our Westminster studio and can

:42:27.:42:29.

What do you mean about oversaving? What we have done is try and look at

:42:30.:42:43.

how much money people need in retirement, in order to be as

:42:44.:42:46.

well-off as they were on average over their working lives, what, what

:42:47.:42:51.

we find a lot of people, possibly by accident have ended up with more

:42:52.:42:55.

money than they need to maintain that, they may not see it as

:42:56.:43:00.

oversaving. They want want a better standard of living than they

:43:01.:43:03.

previously had. It means they could have saved is less an been better

:43:04.:43:08.

off while they were working. Do you think that the Government has

:43:09.:43:13.

prioritised the needs of the older generation, policy wise, over those

:43:14.:43:16.

of the younger generation? If you do look at what the Government has done

:43:17.:43:23.

over the last four year, they have protected pensioner benefits, and

:43:24.:43:27.

they have not protected benefits for younger people, tax rises have

:43:28.:43:31.

largely hit people of younger ages, at a time when pensioner incomes

:43:32.:43:36.

have nor the first time gone up to the average and a bit above it for

:43:37.:43:41.

those below pension age, so there has been some protection of

:43:42.:43:48.

pensioners, yes. It is strange to shear someone like yourself saying

:43:49.:43:50.

pensioners have too much money. Does it matter? Good for them if they do.

:43:51.:43:55.

What difference does it make? There is two things, first we should

:43:56.:43:59.

celebrate what has been amazing change over the last three decades,

:44:00.:44:03.

back in 1980, pensioners were very very much poorer than the rest of

:44:04.:44:07.

the population, if you were old, there was a good chance you would be

:44:08.:44:11.

poor, pensioner incomes are less than that of everyone else. It is a

:44:12.:44:15.

triumph of social policy in many respects, in terms of whether it

:44:16.:44:20.

matters, there is potentially an intergenerational problem here. One

:44:21.:44:25.

reasons pensioner are well-off they got generous state pension, some of

:44:26.:44:30.

them, generous occupational pensions, some of them. They have

:44:31.:44:34.

done well in the housing market, some of them. The next generation

:44:35.:44:38.

will do less well in those areas. Here to discuss are Cari Rosen,

:44:39.:44:40.

editor of the website Gransnet and Angus Hanton, co-founder of

:44:41.:44:53.

the Intergenerational Foundation. We have just heard, pensioners, over

:44:54.:44:58.

saving, they are well off, they have been, to some extent, prioritised by

:44:59.:45:02.

government policy, do you agree? Not necessarily. I think people are

:45:03.:45:06.

grabbing the headline and running with it, but I think we have to

:45:07.:45:14.

realise that the study is 1600 couples, and there are 12 million

:45:15.:45:18.

pensioners in this country, so it is not representative of all of them,

:45:19.:45:23.

by any means. But the baby boomers generation have had it relatively

:45:24.:45:28.

easy, haven't they, in terms of many of them will perhaps have made a

:45:29.:45:31.

reasonable amount of money on their property, they will have had

:45:32.:45:35.

pensions either through their work or private pensions that have done

:45:36.:45:38.

better than you would get now, despite changes coming. They have

:45:39.:45:42.

not have to pay for university Jewish in and so on - do you agree

:45:43.:45:49.

with that? Absolutely. -- University tuition. If you look at the tail end

:45:50.:45:55.

of the baby boomers, like myself, it is a very different thing

:45:56.:46:00.

altogether. So, yes, many people have done well, but it is the same

:46:01.:46:05.

generation who are the first generation who, in retirement, for

:46:06.:46:08.

whom it will be the norm to be living alone, Chas a massive

:46:09.:46:13.

financial impact. Living alone, and living a lot longer, so they will

:46:14.:46:27.

need more money for retirement. These people have got the windfall

:46:28.:46:31.

benefit of their particular circumstances, the benefit of house

:46:32.:46:35.

price increases, which is a straight transfer from the younger generation

:46:36.:46:38.

to the older generation, whether they went all whether they give away

:46:39.:46:42.

a large part of their life's earnings in getting a mortgage and

:46:43.:46:46.

paying for that. So, what has happened is that the younger

:46:47.:46:49.

generation are being asked to pay twice, to save for their own

:46:50.:46:54.

generation, but also to pay for the older generation's pensions because

:46:55.:46:58.

so many of these pensions are underfunded, and it is just not

:46:59.:47:03.

fair. It is not fair, particularly after the recession we have just

:47:04.:47:07.

had? And that is not something that anyone on our site would dispute.

:47:08.:47:12.

But these people we are talking about, they have worked hard, paid

:47:13.:47:17.

taxes and paid national insurance, and now, in

:47:18.:47:19.

taxes and paid national insurance, looking after their grandchildren,

:47:20.:47:23.

so their children can go back to work, so they are still contributing

:47:24.:47:27.

to society. People are forgetting, ?7 billion a year in child care is

:47:28.:47:32.

saved by an army of grandparents. You are getting that the wrong way

:47:33.:47:36.

around. It is great that they are finding this private solution to

:47:37.:47:39.

childcare, but it is because of a public failure, because both people

:47:40.:47:44.

in the couple are having to work very hard. A lot of them would

:47:45.:47:48.

prefer to be with their children. Absolutely. Don't you think policy

:47:49.:47:53.

now should be redirected towards the younger generation, if the figures

:47:54.:47:56.

speak for themselves, many people now in retirement have got enough

:47:57.:48:01.

money for it? The evidence is that nobody wants to see their children

:48:02.:48:05.

and grandchildren suffer at the expense of their own well-being. So,

:48:06.:48:10.

should policy be redirect it? It is not as simple as that. We are an

:48:11.:48:15.

ageing population, with more and more people claiming pension. If we

:48:16.:48:20.

drive them all to Pena rhe, then the state would be in even more hot

:48:21.:48:24.

water. The whole problem is the way the tax burden falls, which falls

:48:25.:48:29.

very heavily on earned income. Young people going into work are paying

:48:30.:48:33.

income tax, national insurance, student debt in many cases, almost

:48:34.:48:39.

50% tax. By contrast, the older generation, whose wealth is in

:48:40.:48:42.

pensions and housing, pay very little tax on rental income or on

:48:43.:48:47.

pensions, for example. The fundamental thing we need to do is

:48:48.:48:52.

we need to review all government policies, in terms of

:48:53.:48:54.

intergenerational fairness. Do you accept that the Government has

:48:55.:48:59.

shielded to some extent the older generation, cynics would say because

:49:00.:49:03.

a lot of older people vote Tory? Well, basically, I agree with him.

:49:04.:49:10.

And I think as Mr Johnson was saying earlier, there has been quite a big

:49:11.:49:13.

shift to the elderly over the last 15 years, and the present generation

:49:14.:49:19.

of pensioners will not be replicated in the future. The future is much

:49:20.:49:23.

smaller pensions. This is why these baby boomers are the lucky

:49:24.:49:29.

generation. If you get the Mail on Sunday, it has 12 - 15 pages

:49:30.:49:34.

advertising cruises. The people who go on cruises are mainly older

:49:35.:49:39.

middle age people. Young families with several children to not go on

:49:40.:49:43.

cruises. What about universal benefits, you agree with the Lib

:49:44.:49:47.

Dems, who say they would take the free TV licence away? Yes, it is

:49:48.:49:52.

absurd that I should get a free TV licence. But means testing benefits,

:49:53.:49:58.

it has been shown, costs more than the amount you would save. And there

:49:59.:50:03.

are many people who rely on those benefits who would proud to claim.

:50:04.:50:07.

That was the argument used on prescription charges, when they were

:50:08.:50:13.

introduced. The exception was given for the elderly, it can be done.

:50:14.:50:18.

Would you say that if you were still an elected politician with a

:50:19.:50:23.

constituency? I would, but you are quite right, this is a headache for

:50:24.:50:28.

any politician to say this. Lots of Tory MPs have said they would agree

:50:29.:50:34.

with that after the election. Yes, and it is good to look at universal

:50:35.:50:38.

benefits, which are an fair on the younger generation at a moment, but

:50:39.:50:42.

that is a relatively small amount of money, compared to the pensions

:50:43.:50:47.

issue. It is an important signal. But I wonder if you are right that

:50:48.:50:52.

they are a lucky generation, or haven't we, and I am a baby boomer

:50:53.:50:57.

as well, taken from the young? Is there not a change that we are not

:50:58.:51:02.

just being lucky, but we are making our own luck by taking from the

:51:03.:51:06.

younger generation? I will let that question hang.

:51:07.:51:13.

Directly elected police and crime commissioners were supposed to make

:51:14.:51:17.

the police accountable, but the Police Commissioner for South

:51:18.:51:19.

Yorkshire does not want to be hold accountable for what happened under

:51:20.:51:24.

his watch in Rotherham. Before becoming Police Commissioner, Shaun

:51:25.:51:26.

Wright was the councillor with responsibility for children's

:51:27.:51:30.

services at a time when hundreds of girls in the town were being

:51:31.:51:34.

sexually abused. This afternoon, he appears before the Home Affairs

:51:35.:51:37.

Select Committee to explain why he will not resign. Here is defending

:51:38.:51:43.

himself last month. I do not think any of this was my direct fault.

:51:44.:51:47.

What I take is collective responsibility. When you are a

:51:48.:51:51.

member of a 63 person council, you take collective responsibility. And

:51:52.:51:55.

I took my responsibility as part of that organisation. And I have moved

:51:56.:52:00.

on and taken lessons from that experience and transferred those

:52:01.:52:03.

into another organisation, South Yorkshire Police, and I am happy to

:52:04.:52:07.

stand proudly on my record over the last couple of years as a police and

:52:08.:52:10.

crime commissioner for South Yorkshire. I am joined now by former

:52:11.:52:16.

Home Office Minister Damian Green and the Labour MP John Mann, and

:52:17.:52:20.

they are both outside Parliament. First of all, John Mann, should

:52:21.:52:26.

Shaun Wright resign? Yes, today. He should have resigned before.

:52:27.:52:30.

Frankly, this demonstrates how unsuited he is to the job. Damian

:52:31.:52:37.

Green? I completely agree. He is not doing himself any good, not doing

:52:38.:52:42.

the post any good, and most of all, not doing the people in South

:52:43.:52:46.

Yorkshire any good. If he was head of children's services at a time

:52:47.:52:49.

when these disgraceful things were happening, then he clearly has more

:52:50.:52:53.

than collective responsibility, he has some individual responsibility.

:52:54.:52:57.

You have both said categorically that he should resign, but can he be

:52:58.:53:04.

sacked? No, because, and this is an important point of principle, he is

:53:05.:53:08.

an elected politician, just like John and me. Just as if he or I say

:53:09.:53:15.

something unpopular, it is not for a Minister of the government to say,

:53:16.:53:20.

no, you can no longer be an MP. If you are elected in a constituency,

:53:21.:53:26.

then you should be chucked out by that constituency, unless you commit

:53:27.:53:32.

a serious crime. He has done more perhaps than just done something

:53:33.:53:37.

people do not like, over Cameron, Theresa May, many people have called

:53:38.:53:42.

for him to resign, Sheffield council has passed a vote of no confidence

:53:43.:53:46.

in him - should he not be sacked? As I say, because he is elected, the

:53:47.:53:51.

only way you can be sacked if you have committed a criminal offence,

:53:52.:53:54.

and that applies to elected people across the board. He should go. The

:53:55.:54:00.

fact that all of the party leaders, I do not know anyone apart from

:54:01.:54:03.

Shaun Wright who says Shaun Wright should survive. Frankly, I hope he

:54:04.:54:09.

has a tough time in front of the select committee this afternoon. He

:54:10.:54:15.

may well do. John Mann, that is democracy, isn't it, we have to wait

:54:16.:54:22.

until there is another election? Well, it is not good democracy when

:54:23.:54:25.

you have politicians running the local police, and they cannot be

:54:26.:54:29.

recalled. If he does not resign, I would call on the Home Secretary to

:54:30.:54:32.

take over South Yorkshire Police and force him out that way. It is

:54:33.:54:37.

unsustainable for him to remain. He is a barrier to that police force

:54:38.:54:40.

doing what they should have done many years ago, which is to get

:54:41.:54:43.

their acts together and get these sex offenders arrested and put in

:54:44.:54:51.

front of the courts. Even if he does resign, is it not likely that any

:54:52.:54:54.

kind of by-election would seek a turnout similar to the one held in

:54:55.:54:58.

the West Midlands in the summer, with just a 10% turnout, so again,

:54:59.:55:03.

no mandate? No, I think the government ought to get rid of these

:55:04.:55:08.

ridiculous positions, and Shaun Wright demonstrates why they were

:55:09.:55:11.

always an absurdity. They will not do that. It needs legislation to get

:55:12.:55:16.

rid of them. In the meanwhile, he should be going anyway, he should do

:55:17.:55:22.

the decent thing. Damian Green, it is a ridiculous idea in the first

:55:23.:55:27.

place, they should go anyway? Well, it is not a ridiculous idea, because

:55:28.:55:32.

you always need somebody to hold the police accountable. It used to be

:55:33.:55:35.

police authorities, who were completely invisible. Nobody knew

:55:36.:55:40.

who was holding the police to account, and very often nobody was.

:55:41.:55:46.

The fact that you have got one man behaving very badly, as he is in

:55:47.:55:49.

this instance, does not alter the basic point which is that having a

:55:50.:55:53.

public figure who is democratically accountable, subject to public

:55:54.:55:57.

Russia, is a better and more accountable system of police

:55:58.:56:02.

governance than we had before. It is not for the police and crime

:56:03.:56:04.

commissioner to decide how South Yorkshire Police deals with child

:56:05.:56:08.

abuse cases, that is for the chief constable. John Mann, therefore, is

:56:09.:56:18.

it not the position itself, it is the paucity of talent within, in

:56:19.:56:24.

this case, Labour? He is clearly unsuited to the job. But these

:56:25.:56:27.

positions, who would want them? That is part of the problem. Having

:56:28.:56:32.

elected politicians trying to run the police force is an absurdity,

:56:33.:56:36.

Shaun Wright demonstrates that. He was hardly known by anybody. But he

:56:37.:56:43.

was selected by Labour? Where John is wrong, he said, who would want to

:56:44.:56:50.

do this? But quite a lot of ex-Labour ministers, including Tony

:56:51.:56:54.

Lloyd, good, serious people on the Labour side have become a lease and

:56:55.:57:02.

crime commissioners. There will always be some ex-politician wanting

:57:03.:57:06.

to grab the job, we all know that. That does not mean it is a good

:57:07.:57:11.

idea. Damian Green, you obviously still believe that they are worth

:57:12.:57:17.

continuing, even though there is so little support for them? Yes,

:57:18.:57:21.

because I have seen, I suspect more than John, the good work which is

:57:22.:57:29.

being done by PCCs from all political backgrounds, particularly

:57:30.:57:31.

in terms of violence against women and children. They have brought much

:57:32.:57:39.

more openness into the way police forces can connect with their local

:57:40.:57:49.

community. Do you agree? I was never a great fan of the Police

:57:50.:57:58.

Commissioners, but police services are also responsible to the Home

:57:59.:58:02.

Secretary, who has very considerable powers. But he could not use them in

:58:03.:58:06.

this particular case. There should have been some provision in the

:58:07.:58:11.

legislation for the Home Secretary to intervene in special

:58:12.:58:13.

circumstances, that would have been the best thing, but it was never

:58:14.:58:19.

thought of. But this man is totally shameless, his reputation is

:58:20.:58:21.

ruined, he will be ineffective in his job, and he should behave

:58:22.:58:26.

sensibly, but he is not going to do that. We have just got a few seconds

:58:27.:58:30.

- what question should Shaun Wright be asked? What did he know, when did

:58:31.:58:35.

he know it and what did he do about it and why isn't he resigning now?

:58:36.:58:42.

Thank you all of our guests, and particularly to our guest of the

:58:43.:58:47.

day, Ken Baker. One o'clock news is starting over on BBC One. I will be

:58:48.:58:52.

back tomorrow with Andrew with by ministers questions, although not

:58:53.:58:53.

with David Cameron and Ed Miliband. or to stay part of

:58:54.:59:05.

the United Kingdom? The BBC's online coverage will keep

:59:06.:59:11.

you up to date with every development with live streaming

:59:12.:59:16.

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:59:17.:59:21.

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