08/09/2014 Daily Politics


08/09/2014

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate, including a look at Liberal Democrat election pledges and the latest from the TUC conference.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Alex Salmond's got a smile on his face.

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He thinks he's going to win next week's vote on Scottish

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Pro-unionist parties have denied claims they are in crisis

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following a weekend poll showing that the "Yes" camp has taken the

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Political campaigners for Scottish independence say they have

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Leaders at Westminster are trying to agree a timetable

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for handing more powers to the Scottish parliament if voters choose

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The Liberal Democrats launch their General Election pre-manifesto.

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We'll be asking if it's worth the 80 pages of paper it's written on.

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Are you the Earl of Grantham, Lady Mary or Mr Carson?

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The TUC thinks British Society's just like Downton Abbey.

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We'll be asking the General Secretary, Frances O'Grady

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And can you identify these well-known faces who've popped up

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at one London tube station this morning?

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Recognise her? We'll be finding out more about the campaign where famous

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politicians are getting mashed up. All that in the next hour

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and with us for the duration today, Tessa Jowell, she's Labour and Ming

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Campbell, he's a Liberal Democrat. Between them they've had

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so many top jobs, It's 10 days to go

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before voters decide whether they Over the weekend pro-Unionists were

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shocked by the first poll to show In response, George Osborne took to

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the airwaves to make this offer. You will see in the next few days a

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plan of action to give more powers to Scotland, more tax powers, more

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spending powers and plans to have more powers over the welfare state

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and that will be put into effect and the timetable for delivery will be

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put into effect the moment there is a No vote in the referendum on the

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clock will be ticking for those powers. And Scotland will have the

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best of both worlds. They will avoid the risk of separation and have more

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control over their own destiny. No one is daft enough in Scotland to

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swallow an argument from a Tory Chancellor. If this was a

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significant new after -- offer, rather than a panic measure because

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the Westminster elite are losing the campaign we wouldn't have heard

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about it before hundreds of thousands of people have cast their

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ballot by post. It's a ridiculous position being put forward by the no

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campaign which is in terminal trouble.

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Well, we're joined now from Glasgow by Blair Jenkins from the Yes

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Before we take reaction to what we just heard there, let's look in

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general what has happened in the money markets, Mr

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general what has happened in the have had one poll that put the Yes

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campaign narrowly ahead. It has sent tremors through the money markets.

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The pound has slumped to the lowest level but ten months against the

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dollar and companies like The Royal Bank of Scotland and Standard Life

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have fallen sharply. Is that what Scotland has the look forward to? To

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the extent that there is uncertainty in the market, and I don't know

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whether that's a reflection on the referendum because all sorts of

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things influence the markets. I think it is possible it is a result

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of that. What you say the uncertainty? It's a very easy way of

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calming the markets available, which is it George Osborne said there

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would be a currency union with Scotland after a yes vote. It lies

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in the gift of the Chancellor and his friends in the other parties to

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end the uncertainty there might be. He's already said he won't do that,

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and we can safely say he will stick to that line, certainly up to the

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poll and beyond, so is it in your mind that you don't believe him and

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he is still bluffing. Not only in my mind but in the minds of the people

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of Scotland. This issue has exhausted itself in Scotland. People

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have heard what the Westminster politicians have to say and the

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level of distrust towards Westminster politicians is at an

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all-time high, so I think they believe it is a bluff. I do think

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that people feel deeply angered that Scotland could not use the pound if

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we chose to. As a tactic, and it is a tactic, I believe it is

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spectacularly backfiring. I've lost count of the number of people who

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have said they have moved from no on two yes just because of this issue

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because of the way the Westminster parties have handled the currency

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issue. Your point that the excursion -- discussion has been exhausted

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might have been demonstrated in the second debate, but when you look at

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the uncertainty in the markets, it has moved on and they are very

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important in terms of the offer that the Yes campaign is making to

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Scottish voters. Do you accept that the very least from what we saw

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today and talk and rumours of companies withdrawing deposits, do

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you accept that there will be short-term pain in the event of a

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yes victory, a period of uncertainty about the currency arrangements. It

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could result in a trouble spot. The UK Government is in a good spot.

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That is not my question. To be honest, we are very surprised by

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this. We are surprised by the extent that the poll came as a shock to

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people in Westminster and in London. Anyone who paid any attention at all

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to the debate in Scotland knew that at the very least it was going to be

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the direction of travel towards yes. We have said that that anyone

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looking at the campaigns around Scotland, they are more visible and

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audible. There is clearly a yes movement which is bigger than party

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politics. And it is not calming the market. You still haven't answered

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the question about that uncertainty. Whether it is a shock or not, it has

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shocked the international markets that you rely on, and if you are not

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part of union and you don't have an alternative, and Alex Salmond said

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they would renege on the debt, you become a pariah state. The markets

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will no doubt way lots of things up at the moment. Everything around

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Scotland moving to become an independent country suggests it will

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be done so in a smooth transition. We are interested in stability in

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currency and other things. But the implication is that the opposite

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will happen. If this is what has happened after one poll puts you

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narrowly ahead, what are the indications if that continues in the

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next couple of weeks for the smooth transition? I would say it looks

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pretty bad. Markets tend to respect the process of democracy and

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self-determination. But they do like certainty. Unfortunately life is not

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full of certainty right now for many of us. I don't think the cause of

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the uncertainty here, such as it is, and it remains to be seen how

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large it is, if there is uncertainty, it's been caused by the

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Westminster parties and it is in their gift to end the uncertainty. I

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don't think people mind about the cause, they want to know what you

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can do to calm it down and provide some sort of stability. What can you

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do? I am heading a campaign for Scottish independence, I'm not a

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politician. What would you expect Alex Salmond and the SNP to do to

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calm everybody's nerves? I think the First Minister and the Scottish

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Government have been highly responsible and highly consistent in

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what we have said. What we discovered yesterday, and it was

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nothing new, is that the Westminster parties are bumping into themselves

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and each other and finding it hard to get a consistent position on more

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power but Scotland. We are clear in what we are doing, but I wish the

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others would be as clear in what they are saying. It is true that the

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offer of more powers has been made by the three parties at Westminster,

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and that timetable looks like it has been brought forward. Do you accept

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that in the closing days of the campaign, voters in Scotland can now

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have it all ways. If they vote no, they can have extra powers. The

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option that would not be on the ballot paper, and they can do it

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with no risk. I think people in Scotland are smart enough to see

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through what is happening. What are they seeing through? What they see

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is that this is driven by panic not conviction. If there had been a

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serious move to warn -- towards offering new powers, surely it would

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have been done before the postal voting started. That has been

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happening for a couple of weeks. Many people in Scotland have already

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cast their vote. I think this is driven by a sense of panic and the

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ground shifting underneath the no campaign. We know what is on offer

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from the Westminster parties is inadequate and it does not give as

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job creation powers, governments that we vote for and want, and

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policies that reflect the priorities of people in Scotland. It doesn't

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give us the fairer Scotland we want and the chance to protect public

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services. Lots of things in Scotland are moving people towards the Yes

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campaign. It is the biggest grassroots movement Scotland has

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seen, and we are happy and confident about how the campaign is going.

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Please stay with us and listen to the reaction from our guests. This

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is Westminster having been far too complacent. Only now, as we heard

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from Mr Jenkins, is there a panic reaction from the government, from

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George Osborne making all sorts of offers at the last minute because

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they never, ever believed that led Jenkins and Alex Salmond and Nicola

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Sturgeon could win this. First of all I don't think we have been

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complacent. Certainly, consistently, across all three parties we have

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said that this is an option and the people of Scotland have got to vote

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on whether they go independent or not, but all three parties are

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unanimous about wanting to keep the union together. That is my first

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point. My second point is, George Osborne has come out with this,

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following a careful look at what is possible and increased devolution,

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and having looked at Wales, I ran a successful devolution and increase

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the power is going to the Welsh Assembly. How have they closed the

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gap? If voters in Scotland really believed it, why is the 20 point gap

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that existed with the no campaign ahead has closed and been parsed

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according to one poll? Coming up to the referendum there is always going

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to be a closing of the gap. I've looked at the betting sites

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recently, and this morning the yes vote has moved out slightly. It's

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gone more towards the no campaign. I think inevitably, as you get closer

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to the date, people focus on it. But the thing that the meat is so

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important is, unlike a referendum for further powers, this is

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irreversible and it makes Scotland a foreign country and cuts it off from

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the rest of the UK. And I firmly believe that politically,

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economically, socially, in every way, that the countries are better

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together. That has not caught the imagination of people though, has

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it? First of all, David Cameron, would have to resign, do you think

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question you don't think Tory MPs would call for him to go? He

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presided over a 300 year union and failed question I would call to

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resign, but I don't think the amount of effort he has put in to try to

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try to keep the union together that he should resign if the vote goes

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the other way. Rather, I want to make sure that he focuses on what

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would happen, because there needs to be an awful lot of energy. There

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will be a constitutional crisis. For me, yes it would be a constitutional

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crisis. It would be that the Labour Party because they would struggle to

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win an election in the near future. -- it would be for the Labour Party.

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Is this labour's failure to even hold on to their own mainstay

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voters? They are bleeding support to the SNP and the Yes campaign because

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they have been too complacent in Scotland and they don't believe Ed

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Miliband will win next year. No. Really? Why are they going to the

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SNP then? There is always excitement about what is seen as insurgent, and

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to use a derogatory term of language, what is an

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antiestablishment campaign. I grew up in Scotland and I have a strong

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sense of the distinctiveness of Scotland within the union. That is

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what this seeks to recognise. But I believe that the no campaign will

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win the referendum. It is not... There is a lot of Westminster

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introspection. And panic. Not panic. Had 13 people recorded their

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intention differently in this poll, the story would have been a

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completely different one. Everybody recognises 20 points ahead before.

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The momentum is now with the Nationalists and with the

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independence campaign. They have their offer... The momentum is with

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a great moment for Scotland, which is referendum day. The no campaign

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will be working and identifying those people who feel tempted by the

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insurgency of the Yes campaign. They need to explain precisely what the

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consequences would be. Would it have been better if Labour had not been

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in a broad coalition going into Scotland to try and sell the

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prounion argument? They should have gone up and sold the left-wing

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campaign to try and outdo the Nationalists on the fairer society,

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the social democracy? This is not a time for that. It was the wrong

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campaign? This is a time to persuade hearts and minds. I am sure that

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every single political party, including the Nationalists, will

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have the Rhone postmortem after, but we are in this to persuade the

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people of Scotland to remain part of the union.

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Has it been the wrong campaign? I heard Henry McLeish saying this

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should have been a hearts and minds campaign, that's how Scotland work

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and the "no" campaign wasn't? That's not the case. What the "no" campaign

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has sought to do is point out the consequences. You said earlier, or

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in a question, independence is not for Christmas. This is in perpetuity

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not just for us but for our children and grandchildren, and what we have

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heard already, everything will be the best in all possible independent

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worlds. If Scotland were to be independent it would face a large

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number of challenges, some of which are emphasised today, and the

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markets are spooked. It is all very easy to say the Chancellor can fix

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this by announcing there will be a currency union, but all three

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parties made it clear some time ago there wouldn't be one. Didn't spook

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the markets. Far from that, it re-enforced them, because the

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markets are concerned with the union in which one important constituent

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part of it sets its own tax, decides what the levels of borrowing are and

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it's own interest rates. How can you run an effective single currency if

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you have all three of threes at the discretion of one part of it? There

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is a contemporary ill slayings and that's the union in the single

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currency. Not enough voters are being persuade. Does the general

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election get called off next year if the "yes" vote wins? I see not

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reason... Even if Scottish MPs would be sitting ducks? I see no

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justification for that. That would only muddy the waters, but you make

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a very good point, which is this - it's been said that change can all

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be done in 18 months. During that period and well beyond it, if you

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think there's uncertainty in the moment there as sure as hell will be

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then, because the notion of extracting from uT United Kingdom, a

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Scottish -- from the United Kingdom, to the extent that we are across the

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border and the income tax and the welfare and all three armed

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services, Ofcom, Ofgem, and every single thing you can think of which

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is UKwide will have to be deconstructed. How long do you think

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that will take and cost? Why did the Scottish Secretary say he would

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switch sides in the event of a "yes" vote? He said it would be the duty

:18:17.:18:21.

of people like him to do everything they could in the interests of

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Scotland and he was willing to do that to ensure the settlement that

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was achieved was as best as could possibly be obtained. Blair Jenkins

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has been sitting there and listening. Your response to what our

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three guests have said? There may be a majority of five to one and they

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are proud of the process. We've had a mature and responsible debate for

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more than two years now and on the issues aired by the panel they've

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been fully aired and discussed, people are making up their minds.

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People are deciding and all the evidence we have, not just the poll,

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but everything I see and hear, says people are moving to question. Blair

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Jenkins, thank you very much. It's time for the daily quiz. The

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question for today is about the US President, President Obama. He was

:19:15.:19:19.

in the country last week, but before heading home he took the chance to

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visit a popular visitor attraction. Was it:

:19:25.:19:31.

Was it Barry Island, altonne towers and -- Alton Towers or threes two.

:19:32.:19:42.

We can only divide the screen into four. What about Blackpool Tower or

:19:43.:19:50.

Loch Lomond. Only eight months to the general election. The Liberal

:19:51.:19:55.

Democrats have this morning launched their pre-manifesto, whatever that

:19:56.:19:59.

is. What's in it? He's had a tough time in Government, but Nick Clegg

:20:00.:20:02.

is keen for more. What is he going to be shouting about? Well, expect

:20:03.:20:05.

to hear a lot about plans to extend the 15 hours a week of free

:20:06.:20:10.

childcare to parents of all two-year-olds. To be paid for by

:20:11.:20:14.

scrapping the Conservatives' plans to introduce a tax break for some

:20:15.:20:18.

couples. Among the others, a commitment to raise the amount you

:20:19.:20:22.

have to earn before you pay income tax to ?12,500. And a promise to

:20:23.:20:27.

protect all education spending from early years to college. Those aged

:20:28.:20:34.

16 to 21 in England will be handed a young persons bus pass, giving them

:20:35.:20:40.

a 66% discount, funded by scrapping TV licences and the winter fuel

:20:41.:20:44.

allowance for pensioners who qualify as higher rate taxpayers. The NHS

:20:45.:20:49.

budget will be ring-fenced and they promise to increase taxes on the

:20:50.:20:53.

wealthiest. With eight months to go, the party is struggling in the

:20:54.:20:58.

polls. Last Sunday they were on just 7%. Many observers argue the party

:20:59.:21:05.

is suffering from breaking their commitment on tuition fees, so the

:21:06.:21:10.

big question is which of the policies are red lines and which are

:21:11.:21:14.

negotiatable? The man in charge, David Laws, he joins me from

:21:15.:21:18.

Westminster. Welcome to The Daily Politics. In 2012, when Nick Clegg

:21:19.:21:24.

apologised for the tuition fees pledge, he said the Liberal

:21:25.:21:27.

Democrats shouldn't make a promise they were not absolutely sure they

:21:28.:21:30.

can deliver. Are you absolutely confident you can deliver everything

:21:31.:21:35.

in this? Yes, I believe we can, but obviously it also depends not just

:21:36.:21:40.

on what we - the way in which we cost, but the outcome of the general

:21:41.:21:43.

election, because parties have to sit down, if there's a hung

:21:44.:21:47.

Parliament, and negotiate with each other. The Conservative Party last

:21:48.:21:50.

time had to sacrifice some of the biggest pledges in its manifesto,

:21:51.:21:56.

such as the pledge they made to raise the Inheritance Tax

:21:57.:22:08.

thresholds. I'm confident. And it's what happens after the hung

:22:09.:22:10.

Parliament when you have to negotiate with another party and no

:22:11.:22:15.

party is able to say they can impose 100% of a manifesto on anybody else.

:22:16.:22:19.

If there was one thing in that manifesto that you would say you

:22:20.:22:25.

would not drop under any circumstances, even in a coalition

:22:26.:22:27.

negotiation, which would ensure you were in government again, what would

:22:28.:22:33.

it be? We will say more closer to the election what the highest

:22:34.:22:36.

priorities are, but I think you can guess through the priority that we

:22:37.:22:39.

have given in this Parliament to things like raising the income tax

:22:40.:22:44.

allowance, and things like that, commitments on education, they are

:22:45.:22:47.

very important to us. They are what Liberal Democrats are about. Tuition

:22:48.:22:50.

fees were important too, weren't they? They were important, yes, but

:22:51.:22:55.

we faced a situation where firstly neither of the other potential

:22:56.:23:00.

parties of coalition were willing to agree to it and secondly, we had to

:23:01.:23:04.

do what the other parties had to do after an election, which is sit down

:23:05.:23:09.

and come to an agreement with those other parties and also make sure

:23:10.:23:13.

that we had the finance to do all of the things that the other parties

:23:14.:23:17.

wanted to do, as well as ourselves. How much will this cost? We'll

:23:18.:23:23.

publish a costings paper closer to the general election. Obviously, it

:23:24.:23:28.

depends on the way in which we phase some of the policies in. We have

:23:29.:23:33.

income tax and childcare, which have given us long-term and bold

:23:34.:23:38.

ambitions and how we implement those, stage them in. We'll publish

:23:39.:23:42.

the figures before the next election, but what Nick Clegg did

:23:43.:23:47.

say today is that the proposals that are in the pre-manifesto, that we

:23:48.:23:51.

published today, are actually considerably less expensive than the

:23:52.:23:56.

manifesto we stood on in 2010. You have learnt your lessons then? We

:23:57.:24:01.

have. I'm personally confident if we were a Liberal Democrat government

:24:02.:24:05.

by ourselves and we didn't have to negotiate with others, then all that

:24:06.:24:10.

we put in our pre-manifesto today is deliverable. We've been every

:24:11.:24:14.

careful about that. Can you tell us, you'll know how much it would cost

:24:15.:24:19.

to raise the personal allowance to ?12,500? It depends how rapidly you

:24:20.:24:25.

do it. How much as a total? Over the lifetime of a Parliament it's

:24:26.:24:29.

something like ?5 billion per year by the end of the Parliament.

:24:30.:24:33.

Obviously, there are some increases in the allowance that will happen

:24:34.:24:36.

through indexing for inflation. That would be by the end of the

:24:37.:24:41.

Parliament. Looking at mansion tax, you failed to get anywhere with

:24:42.:24:45.

that. That was during this Parliament. What makes you think,

:24:46.:24:48.

unless you are in coalition with Labour, you'll be able to get that

:24:49.:24:53.

through this time? Every negotiation with another party is a separate

:24:54.:24:58.

one. And how you did on the previous occasion didn't necessary -- doesn't

:24:59.:25:02.

necessarily mean you won't be successful or not. The Conservatives

:25:03.:25:07.

are pretty well saying that's not going to happen, even though

:25:08.:25:11.

privately George Osborne was warming to it? There was a moment in the

:25:12.:25:15.

Parliament where the Conservatives did come close to agreeing something

:25:16.:25:22.

that looked tax on high-Qual ewe properties, so I'm not -- high-value

:25:23.:25:27.

priorities, so I'm not writing that off. Some of the pledges you could

:25:28.:25:32.

introduce now or you could have introduced while in government. Why

:25:33.:25:36.

haven't you, like universal childcare? In this cases it's simply

:25:37.:25:43.

going to be the short-term financial consequences, as you know. We are

:25:44.:25:52.

already rolling out at the moment two-year education, so 0% of

:25:53.:26:02.

two-year-olds -- so 40 of two-year-olds. Increase in the

:26:03.:26:04.

personal tax allowance that will occur in April next year. In part,

:26:05.:26:09.

it's that on principle we could have done some of the other things, but

:26:10.:26:13.

we have to make sure that in the short term they're affordable and

:26:14.:26:17.

actually some of the things will become more affordable in the next

:26:18.:26:20.

Parliament. Last month, you accused the Conservatives of putting cuts

:26:21.:26:25.

before tackling poverty a priority as far as you're concerned. You

:26:26.:26:28.

would go into coalition with the Conservatives if they were the

:26:29.:26:33.

largest parties? We are not able to say we would go into coalition with

:26:34.:26:37.

anybody, prior to having a negotiation about the things that we

:26:38.:26:42.

stand for. If we were - if it was to be proposed we went into coalition

:26:43.:26:49.

and if we weren't secure in terms of policies of course we would say no.

:26:50.:26:54.

It all depends on how much of the Liberal Democrat programme for

:26:55.:26:57.

government and how much of the policies we have announced today we

:26:58.:27:03.

are enable to enact. You'll be holding the parties to ransom? It's

:27:04.:27:07.

not about that. The Conservative Party and the Labour Party in a hung

:27:08.:27:11.

Parliament would have to do the same and sit down, if they failed to

:27:12.:27:14.

secure a majority and figure out how to get a sensible programme for the

:27:15.:27:19.

country for the Parliament. We did that in a mature way in 2010. We did

:27:20.:27:24.

it quickly and efficiently in contrast to what many people

:27:25.:27:26.

expected before the general election. I'm sure we would do it

:27:27.:27:31.

calmly and sensibly if there's a hung Parliament. You may not have -

:27:32.:27:38.

you may be able to take more time if the economic circumstances would be

:27:39.:27:42.

different as to when you started negotiate in coalition in 2010. Have

:27:43.:27:45.

you enjoyed the coalition with the Conservatives? I've enjoyed the fact

:27:46.:27:48.

that the Liberal Democrats have actually been in government being

:27:49.:27:53.

able to do something rather than criticising the Government of the

:27:54.:27:56.

day. It's been a tough time to be in government, because of the scale of

:27:57.:28:01.

the deficit we inherited. We have had to do things we haven't wanted

:28:02.:28:06.

to do, but also been able to deliver policies like the pupil premium and

:28:07.:28:09.

the higher personal tax allowance that we are passionate about and if

:28:10.:28:15.

the choice is between being in government and sitting on the

:28:16.:28:18.

sidelines I know what I would prefer any day of the week. Are you missing

:28:19.:28:22.

Michael Gove? I got on well with Michael Gove. He was an entertaining

:28:23.:28:29.

guy and passionate and cared very much about social mobility,

:28:30.:28:31.

particularly improving the life chances of young people and the

:28:32.:28:35.

disadvantaged, but these matters are decided by the Prime Minister and

:28:36.:28:39.

I'm now working very well his successor. Well done. David Laws,

:28:40.:28:46.

thank you. Thank you. If the Tories are the largest party, but not big

:28:47.:28:50.

enough to form a majority government, would you want a

:28:51.:28:53.

minority or coalition with the Liberal Democrats? First, I'm

:28:54.:28:57.

working for a majority government and I'm sure Tessa will be working

:28:58.:29:01.

for a majority government. We would expect you to say that. I'm not

:29:02.:29:06.

impressed by the Liberal Democrats showing a bit of leg to both

:29:07.:29:09.

parties. This is what it's all about. The Liberal Democrats -- Why

:29:10.:29:14.

shouldn't they? They are saying, "Come with us, we'll be there to

:29:15.:29:17.

prop you up." Do you like what you hear? Not particularly. What is it

:29:18.:29:21.

you don't like? Some of the things you didn't mention. I understand

:29:22.:29:26.

already in this pre-election manifesto they're ruling out

:29:27.:29:32.

expanding the airports, but they'll look at the Davies Commission and

:29:33.:29:37.

also they would move to decriminalising drugs. Ming can tell

:29:38.:29:43.

me about those, but they are a case of wanting your cake and eating it.

:29:44.:29:46.

I don't take this launch very seriously. I think it's a lot of

:29:47.:29:53.

apple pie. And mother hood. I think that they need to remember that

:29:54.:29:59.

unfortunately the electoral politics meant there had to be a deal done.

:30:00.:30:05.

And And if they're the same again? I would prefer not to. Having served

:30:06.:30:09.

in the government in coalition, I would prefer to go it alone with a

:30:10.:30:13.

minority government. How many of your colleagues feel the same way? I

:30:14.:30:17.

don't mean exact numbers. I think there's a number that would share

:30:18.:30:20.

the same view. That's a problem, Ming, because you can show as much

:30:21.:30:24.

leg as you like, but if the Conservatives and many of Cheryl's

:30:25.:30:27.

colleagues feel - and we know many have had enough of coalition and

:30:28.:30:30.

they feel they haven't been able to do the things they want to do,

:30:31.:30:33.

despite David Laws saying they've achieved a lot in coalition, then

:30:34.:30:35.

you are going to be frozen out. show because it is up to the public

:30:36.:30:49.

to decide. Whichever party has the largest number of seats will say

:30:50.:30:51.

they will have a minority government. They could do. Yes, and

:30:52.:30:58.

there are consequences, because if we're worried about uncertainty in

:30:59.:31:01.

the markets, then if ever there was a way to create uncertainty in the

:31:02.:31:04.

markets, it is having a minority government. If there is a supply and

:31:05.:31:09.

demand deal done with the Liberal Democrats then? Well, that is a

:31:10.:31:16.

deal. Would you be up for that? It is what the public decide they want,

:31:17.:31:20.

and in those circumstances everything must be on the table. But

:31:21.:31:23.

it's important to make this point, minority governments last a few

:31:24.:31:27.

months and then you have to go to the country, and if you're concerned

:31:28.:31:32.

about certainty in the economy, the notion of two general elections in a

:31:33.:31:36.

few months will not help that, and nor will it be welcome to the public

:31:37.:31:40.

who expect, if they produce a result which is not clear-cut in the way we

:31:41.:31:44.

are describing, that some effort would be made to find a common

:31:45.:31:50.

purpose, as we did after 2010, when we were staring over the abyss. This

:31:51.:31:55.

time it will be different. You might argue that the markets will be

:31:56.:31:59.

calmer. They have seen what has happened in coalition and there

:32:00.:32:01.

could be more time and flexibility for negotiation which could be, as

:32:02.:32:05.

far as the Labour Party are concerned, they would not make the

:32:06.:32:10.

same mistake again. They will make sure that if they don't have enough

:32:11.:32:13.

seats, they will match up with the Liberal Democrats. I don't think

:32:14.:32:20.

that is a given at all. What David laws is talking about is a kind of

:32:21.:32:24.

hung parliament manifesto because the Liberal Democrats are not going

:32:25.:32:28.

to form a majority government. Like Cheryl, my party, the Labour Party,

:32:29.:32:32.

we would want to form a majority government and to be able to

:32:33.:32:38.

implement the manifesto. But I was part of the discussions immediately

:32:39.:32:46.

after the defeat in 2010, and when the Liberal Democrats were riding

:32:47.:32:50.

considerably higher than they are now, I think there are questions

:32:51.:32:54.

about the nature of democracy. For instance, if the Liberal Democrats

:32:55.:32:57.

have lost a substantial number of seats, is it really right, are you

:32:58.:33:03.

really responding to what the public have said in the election by saying,

:33:04.:33:08.

OK, you can tag along with us and then we will be in government. These

:33:09.:33:11.

are the kind of questions that are unresolved. Let's say you lose 15 or

:33:12.:33:18.

20 seats... I will deal with that in a moment. But if anybody fails to

:33:19.:33:22.

get an overall majority then you have to do understand that that is a

:33:23.:33:28.

judgement of the public, just as if the Liberal Democrats were to lose

:33:29.:33:31.

seats, that would have to be taken into account. The polling suggests

:33:32.:33:37.

that the local parties are strong, and when members of Parliament are

:33:38.:33:41.

as effective as they can be, then then the stark reality of the

:33:42.:33:47.

average opinion poll taken through the country will not be reflected in

:33:48.:33:53.

any way in the result. That is a fair point. Would you do a minority

:33:54.:33:59.

Labour government or coalition with the Liberal Democrats question we

:34:00.:34:08.

are going to be majority government. Knocking on the doors of people

:34:09.:34:12.

around the UK, we are not saying, will you help us enter a coalition?

:34:13.:34:17.

But you like the mansion tax, you agree with that, and you could

:34:18.:34:22.

negotiate over the top rate. There are so many things you share with

:34:23.:34:26.

the Liberal Democrats. We are going to be the majority government. That

:34:27.:34:30.

is what we are working for and campaigning for. There is a hint of

:34:31.:34:38.

Alex Salmond here. There is no Alex Salmond in this. Are you not

:34:39.:34:42.

planning for a coalition? Was that not the mistake last time round? Of

:34:43.:34:48.

course we are not planning for a coalition. We are planning a

:34:49.:34:51.

programme to offer to the British people, and we hope... There have

:34:52.:34:57.

been all sorts of overture was made by Ed Miliband though. I think there

:34:58.:35:01.

has been more reporting of it than actual over jewels. Ming Campbell

:35:02.:35:09.

will stand on the doorstep and say we will go with either party. Tessa

:35:10.:35:16.

and I can say this is the manifesto. I resent the implication. It is the

:35:17.:35:22.

voter that loses out when the politicians just get the deal in the

:35:23.:35:23.

end. I resent the invitation. So, TUC General Secretary,

:35:24.:35:31.

Frances O'Grady thinks British society currently resembles one

:35:32.:35:33.

of our favourite TV programmes, Here's what she had to say

:35:34.:35:35.

at their annual conference Come the election, we all face a

:35:36.:35:48.

choice. Are we going to settle for a nasty and poorer Britain? A Downton

:35:49.:35:55.

Abbey style society in which the living standards of the vast

:35:56.:35:59.

majority are sacrificed to pay for the high living of the well-to-do

:36:00.:36:05.

question where the blame is heaped on the most vulnerable. Migrants,

:36:06.:36:13.

claimants, while the powerful and privileged sit pretty. Or are we

:36:14.:36:18.

going to seize the opportunity and build a new and fair economy that

:36:19.:36:23.

provides the people of this country with good skilled jobs?

:36:24.:36:29.

Well, Francis O'Grady joins us now from Liverpool.

:36:30.:36:34.

You say Britain can afford pay rises for public sector workers for

:36:35.:36:41.

sustained growth in the economy, so do you want to congratulate George

:36:42.:36:46.

Osborne for that sustained growth? The problem is that George Osborne

:36:47.:36:50.

personally overturned the recommendation of the independent

:36:51.:36:54.

pay review body that looks at the evidence and recommended a very

:36:55.:36:58.

modest 1% increase for nurses and midwives and other health care

:36:59.:37:01.

workers, and George Osborne said no, they would not get a penny. That is

:37:02.:37:08.

one reason why people feel so fed up as it seems like George Osborne

:37:09.:37:11.

talks about a recovery in the economy but it's not one in which

:37:12.:37:17.

ordinary people share. But you do accept there has been a recovery and

:37:18.:37:21.

it's come about as a result of George Osborne and the coalition's

:37:22.:37:28.

economic policies? I suspect that wealth is really created by the

:37:29.:37:32.

people who go to work for a living. And, in fact, we know the recovery

:37:33.:37:36.

has been much slower than other countries, but even so, we have had

:37:37.:37:41.

economic recovery for two years. Ordinary people, on average, have

:37:42.:37:45.

taken pay cuts in real terms for the last four years. We think it's time

:37:46.:37:50.

Britain had a pay rise. You are absolutely right. Wages have been

:37:51.:37:53.

behind the prices for years and there is no sign of it going the

:37:54.:37:59.

other way. What would be your proposal? What sort of pay rise

:38:00.:38:02.

would you like to see for public sector workers? All we are asking is

:38:03.:38:09.

that George Osborne respects the recommendations of that independent

:38:10.:38:13.

pay review body. But we also think the government should send a signal

:38:14.:38:16.

that we should be heading for a living wage, a wage people can live

:38:17.:38:24.

in dignity on, and half a million local government workers don't earn

:38:25.:38:27.

a living wage. That is not sustainable and ultimately not good

:38:28.:38:30.

for the economy of people don't have money to spend in local shops and

:38:31.:38:34.

businesses. Let's have a look at affordability. Over the last year,

:38:35.:38:39.

there have been retail indications that show that people are spending

:38:40.:38:42.

more than they were a year ago and you are calling for a ?10 minimum

:38:43.:38:50.

wage. Is that affordable? It is certainly a goal. But is it

:38:51.:38:57.

affordable? Nobody is saying it should be delivered tomorrow, but we

:38:58.:39:00.

are saying we can afford a higher minimum wage, much more than the ?6

:39:01.:39:07.

50 it will rise to next October, and the truth is, could you live on

:39:08.:39:11.

that? I know I couldn't and I'm sure George Osborne could not either.

:39:12.:39:17.

What about current levels of public borrowing? Do you know how much they

:39:18.:39:22.

are at the moment? I haven't got the figures on me, but as I say, I think

:39:23.:39:28.

we have had one of the slowest recoveries, and many people, many

:39:29.:39:32.

economists argue that is because the government cut far too deeply, and

:39:33.:39:35.

the problem is that people are beginning to spend more, but they

:39:36.:39:39.

are still dipping into what little savings they have or they are

:39:40.:39:44.

getting further into debt. It's not a sustainable way to run the

:39:45.:39:47.

economy, and I think the Chancellor has do rethink it. Compared to

:39:48.:39:52.

countries in the Eurozone, where unemployment is running at 27%,

:39:53.:40:02.

youth unemployment at 47% in Spain. The forecasts from the office of the

:40:03.:40:07.

budget responsibility for borrowing is ?95.5 billion. I come back to the

:40:08.:40:11.

question, and I'm saying you are not having the minimum wage tomorrow,

:40:12.:40:17.

but is it right to have the goal of a ?10 minimum wage is, I think it is

:40:18.:40:26.

absolutely sustainable to have their wages in the public sector. Unions

:40:27.:40:30.

are the first people to say let sit around the table and talk about jobs

:40:31.:40:33.

and services and let's talk about pay. We understand the trades off

:40:34.:40:40.

that have to be made, but we want people to have the respect to talk

:40:41.:40:43.

to their own workers. I never thought I would see the day that

:40:44.:40:46.

midwives would be balloting for strike action. It takes a lot of the

:40:47.:40:53.

people to feel so insulted and so worried about managing their bills

:40:54.:40:57.

that that is what it has come to. I really think that this government

:40:58.:41:05.

needs to talk and listen. You also accuse the coalition of creating a

:41:06.:41:08.

Downton Abbey society where migrants and claimants are blamed rather than

:41:09.:41:13.

helped. Do you agree it is the case that many union members support

:41:14.:41:17.

things like the welfare cap and restriction on benefits for new

:41:18.:41:19.

migrants because they are the ones that have suffered? I think if you

:41:20.:41:25.

listen to the whole speech, you would have heard me say that nobody

:41:26.:41:30.

likes cheating in welfare and we know that there is a very small

:41:31.:41:33.

minority of those who do cheating welfare, and they need to be

:41:34.:41:39.

tackled, just as the far greater amounts we see avoided by companies

:41:40.:41:42.

when they should be paying their taxes. But there is strong support

:41:43.:41:48.

here for a strong welfare system and there is also a growing feeling that

:41:49.:41:52.

the problem is not migrant workers, the problem is employers exploiting

:41:53.:41:57.

them and undercutting their pay. Again, we would like to see some

:41:58.:42:03.

tough talk and action for the minority of bad employers. How much

:42:04.:42:09.

of what Frances O'Grady has said with the Labour government be

:42:10.:42:13.

willing to implement? I agree with a lot of what she just said. I think

:42:14.:42:20.

she was being very reasonable. I think, and we do have a national

:42:21.:42:25.

minimum wage, and I would hope that there could be a real drive with the

:42:26.:42:31.

trade unions as partners to see more employers paid the living wage. And

:42:32.:42:36.

the ?10 as a goal? You would not sign up to that? We have a low pay

:42:37.:42:43.

commission, and they will have additional powers to ensure

:42:44.:42:48.

enforcement of the minimum wage, because the point Frances O'Grady

:42:49.:42:53.

makes is right, that one of the reasons why there is a sense of

:42:54.:42:59.

alienation in workplaces and some parts of the country is this sense

:43:00.:43:03.

that migrant workers are undercutting the national minimum

:43:04.:43:08.

wage. We would make sure that the low pay commission brought cases

:43:09.:43:16.

against those who did that. How many cases have been brought? Hardly any.

:43:17.:43:21.

The numbers are negligible. I'm not sure that is reassuring people in

:43:22.:43:28.

low paid work, but they are worried. Many Labour Party members, and many

:43:29.:43:33.

union members, are about immigration, migrants taking low

:43:34.:43:37.

paid work that could be theirs. That is how that has been expressed to

:43:38.:43:40.

the Labour Party and they don't think you've done enough about it. I

:43:41.:43:46.

don't accept that. First of all, we know that family income has fallen

:43:47.:43:53.

under this government. It is very important that the protective floor

:43:54.:43:59.

of the national minimum wage is properly implemented and that we set

:44:00.:44:03.

our ambition higher than that. With employers and trade unions to secure

:44:04.:44:13.

the living wage. But if you have non-cash benefits like childcare,

:44:14.:44:15.

which are very important for families who are really

:44:16.:44:20.

struggling... We do have to move on. We might be able to come back to

:44:21.:44:24.

some of these issues later in the programme.

:44:25.:44:28.

This afternoon David Cameron will make a statement in the House

:44:29.:44:31.

of Commons about last week's Nato summit in Wales.

:44:32.:44:33.

Also today, the cross-party House of Commons Commission meets

:44:34.:44:35.

and is expected to discuss whether to create two top jobs to

:44:36.:44:38.

On Tuesday, a devo max paper on Scotland - setting out how and

:44:39.:44:44.

when powers could be transferred - expected to be backed by Mr Cameron,

:44:45.:44:47.

Mr Miliband and Nick Clegg, could be published as soon as tomorrow.

:44:48.:44:52.

And Boris Johnson will no doubt be prepping hard all week

:44:53.:44:54.

for a selection meeting to choose the next Conservative candidate

:44:55.:44:57.

Joining me now from College Green are the Sun's Political Editor,

:44:58.:45:04.

Tom Newton Dunn and Tamara Cohen from the Daily Mail.

:45:05.:45:11.

First of all, is there a general sense of panic about Westminster

:45:12.:45:17.

following this poll that put the Yes campaign narrowly ahead, or is it

:45:18.:45:30.

overstated? There is panic. Interesting this morning where the

:45:31.:45:33.

PM's spokesman tells us about the week ahead. Usually it's a good

:45:34.:45:40.

kickabout, but for 50 minutes we talked about nothing but Scotland.

:45:41.:45:43.

One question on the end about something else. Scotland is the only

:45:44.:45:48.

game in town. The YouGov polls last week and the Sunday Times have

:45:49.:45:53.

thrust us all into a single-track mode and there is now a massive

:45:54.:45:57.

problem about what to do on eversing this momentum and switching away

:45:58.:46:02.

from yes. Talking about the Government want to reverse, has this

:46:03.:46:06.

been a wake-up call that has come too late or is it what the "no"

:46:07.:46:11.

campaign needs? It's been a collective intake of breath this

:46:12.:46:14.

morning, with the poll. I don't think there was that realisation

:46:15.:46:20.

that the "yes" campaign has gone from 22 points behind in the polls

:46:21.:46:25.

to one point ahead, so there's panic and also a real feeling they they

:46:26.:46:30.

failed to develop a strategy for the "yes" campaign seizing the momentum

:46:31.:46:33.

at the last minute. We have had George Osborne this weekend talking

:46:34.:46:37.

about giving Scots more control of their destiny and we'll get more of

:46:38.:46:41.

that from the three parties by devolution. We now hear there's not

:46:42.:46:46.

going to be anything new in it, but reiterating the same. There's

:46:47.:46:49.

definitely panic mode over the next ten days. We'll talk about

:46:50.:46:56.

speculation. Tom, say there's a victory for the "yes" campaign,

:46:57.:46:59.

would David Cameron have to resign? It's inevitable. I don't think a

:47:00.:47:07.

Prime Minister could hang on having presided over - whether it's his

:47:08.:47:11.

fault or not - it would change the politics and finances, our defence,

:47:12.:47:16.

welfare system. The country and England itself would also be

:47:17.:47:20.

unrecognisable and I think there would be an enormous clamour for new

:47:21.:47:23.

leadership to get us through that and I suppose what's interesting

:47:24.:47:27.

about today, with another development this morning, that the

:47:28.:47:30.

Prime Minister, David Cameron, is now almost entirely totally

:47:31.:47:36.

powerless in this crusade to save the union. It's down to Labour's big

:47:37.:47:41.

beasts to try to turn those Labour voters, who are the ones that are

:47:42.:47:45.

causing this massive cascade towards the "yes" vote. The PM's job is on

:47:46.:47:49.

the line. I certainly believe that, but he has to sit on his hands,

:47:50.:47:53.

which is an extraordinary predicament to be in. Following on

:47:54.:47:58.

from that, what do you think happens to the 2015 election if there is a

:47:59.:48:04.

victory for the "yes" vote? It leaves it in chaos. We have a

:48:05.:48:08.

situation where Scots wouldn't leave the union if they vote yes until

:48:09.:48:13.

March 2016. They would get to vote in the 2015 election and they are 41

:48:14.:48:17.

Labour MPs and one Conservative in Scotland. There could be a situation

:48:18.:48:25.

where Scottish Labour MPs are propping up a Miliband government

:48:26.:48:28.

next year and they would all leave in 2016 and leave them without a

:48:29.:48:32.

majority. A bit of a constitutional crisis. There has been discussion

:48:33.:48:35.

about having to delay the election by another year, although we

:48:36.:48:39.

understand that has been ruled out because the prospect of having six

:48:40.:48:43.

years of one government is considered something that shouldn't

:48:44.:48:47.

go ahead because of this. Since you talked about it all mourn, Tom,

:48:48.:48:53.

something else briefly. The NATO rapid reaction force that was

:48:54.:48:57.

announced, with contribution from the UK, returning to the Cold War?

:48:58.:49:02.

It would be nice, wouldn't it, if the combined armies and allies of

:49:03.:49:06.

the West were to get together and face down two, even three, different

:49:07.:49:10.

tleeTS, certainly Ukraine and the Islamic State threat in the Middle

:49:11.:49:16.

East. And then there's Gaza and pass Stein and Israel. I don't --

:49:17.:49:19.

Palestine and Israel. I don't think it will happen. The force was the

:49:20.:49:24.

best that a reasonably weakened, divided summit could come up with.

:49:25.:49:27.

Remember one third will be British and the whole thing will be

:49:28.:49:30.

British-led. There is a feeling among NATO that something must be

:49:31.:49:34.

done, but there's no commitment whatsoever to do anything

:49:35.:49:38.

substantial about it, so very far from the days of the grand alliance

:49:39.:49:44.

that won the Cold War. Tom Newton Dunn and Tamara Cohen, enjoy your

:49:45.:49:49.

week. Our panel, as you can see, you are young, thrusting, modernising

:49:50.:49:52.

types, but what about rest of Parliament? Does it need to be

:49:53.:49:56.

dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century? I said that with

:49:57.:50:00.

conviction. This week, MPs will discuss whether to split the role of

:50:01.:50:03.

the clerk of the Commons in order to have a Chief Executive who can

:50:04.:50:07.

devote all his or her time running the place and have a separate role

:50:08.:50:12.

for an expert to advise the speaker on Parliamentary procedure, but is

:50:13.:50:16.

this necessary, Ming? You have to remember that the role of the clerk

:50:17.:50:20.

of the House has constitutional significance. Not least because the

:50:21.:50:25.

appointment is actually made by the Queen on the recommendation of the

:50:26.:50:29.

Prime Minister. So far as I know recently, there has never been an

:50:30.:50:34.

occasion when that recommendation was made and the monarch of the day

:50:35.:50:39.

turned it down. Building on what we have been talking about this

:50:40.:50:43.

morning, the next 18 months at least are perhaps -- or perhaps the next

:50:44.:50:49.

five or six years, will be enormously significant in

:50:50.:50:51.

constitution. Think of the legislation that will be necessary

:50:52.:50:55.

if there was a vote for independence in order to give effect to that. If

:50:56.:51:00.

ever there was a time when the help of Parliament you need somebody who

:51:01.:51:04.

is thoroughly and completely skilled in that and remember, we are a

:51:05.:51:09.

legislature, we are not a business. It just happens that there are quite

:51:10.:51:14.

a lot of business motions. Don't doubt that for a moment. I don't see

:51:15.:51:18.

why you cannot create a structure in which the clerk of the House retains

:51:19.:51:28.

his or her position, but that you have someone who is responsible like

:51:29.:51:32.

that of the chief operating officer. The Chief Executive, with a chief

:51:33.:51:36.

operating officer. You can construct something of that kind, which helps

:51:37.:51:40.

you deal with the business issues, but also preserves the primacy and

:51:41.:51:43.

constitutional importance of the clerk. This has been caused, this

:51:44.:51:49.

row, by John Bercow, proposing Carol Mills from the Australian

:51:50.:51:54.

Parliament, who many feel she is not adequately qualified. Does he

:51:55.:51:59.

survive this? That's not for me to judge, but fo the House. What do you

:52:00.:52:04.

think? I have to tell you that the situation that has arisen over the

:52:05.:52:09.

clerk is for me like telling a whole lot of heart surgeons they're moving

:52:10.:52:13.

to the top of their profession and then appointing a dentist to head up

:52:14.:52:19.

that section of the hospital. For me, Ming is absolutely right and I

:52:20.:52:23.

agree, we need that expertise from that number of men and women that

:52:24.:52:30.

have come up between all the administrations, that has that

:52:31.:52:35.

experience that they can impart. Has he made a mistake. There was a

:52:36.:52:40.

panel, not just him. What I don't want to do is use this as a rod to

:52:41.:52:45.

beat the Speaker. Right. You don't think that. I don't think it's

:52:46.:52:50.

right. That is the important thing. Of course, the House of Commons has

:52:51.:52:54.

got to keep on modernising and being efficient and effective and I think

:52:55.:52:58.

Ming has set out the case clearly, but this is being used as a proxy by

:52:59.:53:02.

people who don't like John Bercow to get at him. We should stand up for

:53:03.:53:09.

him, because he believes in ensuring that the House reflects all the

:53:10.:53:13.

expectations of the public. We'll talk about a popular subject, MPs'

:53:14.:53:19.

pay. Are you in the line of one advertising company, are you worth

:53:20.:53:23.

it, a 10% increase? I'm not standing at the next election. The fact is

:53:24.:53:28.

that the independent Parliament standards authority was set up to

:53:29.:53:33.

determine MPs' pay. Why, because there was a broad consensus after

:53:34.:53:40.

expenses that MPs should not -- Are MPs worth it? Yes. Are they worth

:53:41.:53:47.

it? I think most MPs do a thoroughly, good job and it should

:53:48.:53:51.

be decided on independently. This is the wrong time. Yes, they are. I

:53:52.:53:57.

have said this to Lorraine Kennedy's face, at this moment, and we have

:53:58.:54:00.

heard Frances O'Grady, the idea that we would get - I'm not standing

:54:01.:54:06.

after next May either. The idea we get a 10% increase immediately

:54:07.:54:10.

before an election frankly makes so sense whatsoever. There is a good

:54:11.:54:15.

reason for that, if someone may choose that, but where do the

:54:16.:54:21.

burdens fall? MPs will be responsible. Everyone who stantes in

:54:22.:54:23.

the next general election will be asked the question, will you or will

:54:24.:54:27.

you not take it? Rich people will say no, people who need the money

:54:28.:54:32.

will say, they think they will take it. It distorts the position. What

:54:33.:54:38.

do you get when you cross Angela Merkel and John Prescott? I dread to

:54:39.:54:41.

think. Or Boris Johnson and Karl Marx. Please, don't send your

:54:42.:54:47.

answers in. Our Adam has been out and about finding out about some

:54:48.:54:52.

pretty strange political mashups. Westminster tube, used by more than

:54:53.:54:56.

30,000 people every day. Lots of them hacks. And MPs. They're always

:54:57.:55:02.

bombarded with adverts for something, whether a campaign,

:55:03.:55:05.

company or lobby group, but look what has popped up today. Yes, it's

:55:06.:55:18.

Maggie and gevara. Do you think the guerilla look suits her? I don't

:55:19.:55:23.

think any look suits her, but not the worst. The whole point is to get

:55:24.:55:28.

people to think not left and right, but do you think it's good? I don't

:55:29.:55:34.

think so really. Personally, I don't think they should have altered the

:55:35.:55:41.

image like that. Who is it dig respectful to who? Thatcher. We are

:55:42.:55:51.

Conservative mainly, so posters don't do nothing for me. I kwieBG

:55:52.:55:57.

like Margaret Thatcher. There are plenty more to come. Boris with Karl

:55:58.:56:02.

Marx and Angela Merkel with John prosecution so the. All dreamt up by

:56:03.:56:08.

a group called the Social Economy Alliance. We want to get to that

:56:09.:56:11.

part of people's brains where they have to stop and think and have to

:56:12.:56:16.

be confused and reorder the thoughts and allow a different space for a

:56:17.:56:18.

different way of thinking about economics and business. Even the

:56:19.:56:23.

ticket barriers are plastered with them, so tonight I've got to decide

:56:24.:56:32.

do I go home through Michaels Foot and Gove or May and Harman. It's so

:56:33.:56:37.

difficult. Since you enjoyed that so much, team cue have a go at trying

:56:38.:56:42.

to divide the mash yups we have put together. No-one like the Angela

:56:43.:56:48.

Merkel and John Prescott one. We'll go for the first one. Take a look

:56:49.:56:52.

and see if you can tell us who they are. Who is this? Douglas Carswell

:56:53.:57:02.

and Andrew George. No, David Cameron. Not a good look. No. We'll

:57:03.:57:12.

try number two. Highly improbable! Yes, it is. Number two. That's an

:57:13.:57:18.

interesting mashup. Who do you think that is? Boris Johnson and... I'm

:57:19.:57:31.

frightened to say. No, say it. I love the fact that you're frightened

:57:32.:57:36.

to say. There's a passing resemblance to somebody who is

:57:37.:57:44.

sitting next to me. Number three. Who is that? Ming the Terrible? I'm

:57:45.:57:59.

afraid it's me. It's not just you. It's Ming the Merciless and you? Do

:58:00.:58:05.

you like that? The principal cartoonist in The Guardian for a

:58:06.:58:10.

long time, that was his motif, and after I became leader he made me

:58:11.:58:14.

look less frightening. We have time to find out the answer to the quiz.

:58:15.:58:18.

Do you remember the question, after the summit, where did President

:58:19.:58:23.

Obama go? Stonehenge. Do you remember the picture with the

:58:24.:58:29.

family. They must have been surprised to see President Obama

:58:30.:58:32.

going through. Yes, there it is. That is the correct answer. Well

:58:33.:58:36.

done all of you. I'm going to say thank you to all our guests. I'm

:58:37.:58:41.

sorry the programme goes through so quickly. We had so much to talk

:58:42.:58:45.

about. The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now and

:58:46.:58:48.

I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big political stories of the

:58:49.:58:52.

day. Make sure you join me. From all of us here, goodbye.

:58:53.:59:05.

Until there's concrete proof he's acting irresponsibly,

:59:06.:59:08.

What are you doing?! Don't get him out!

:59:09.:59:18.

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