Browse content similar to 16/09/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
The Scottish independence referendum is just two days away! | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
The three main party leaders at Westminster have signed | :00:47. | :00:48. | |
a pledge promising new powers for Scotland, whichever way Scots vote. | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
The SNP says it's an insult and asked why it's taken so long. | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
There are growing calls for more powers for the rest of the UK. | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
We'll debate whether England needs its own parliament. | :01:01. | :01:07. | |
It's often thought that artists are more likely to be on the left. | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
We'll bring together two best-selling authors to debate | :01:11. | :01:18. | |
He looks like someone has put his finger up their bottom! And do we | :01:19. | :01:35. | |
need to lighten up when it comes to a bit of political argy-bargy? | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
All that in the next hour and with us for the whole | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
of the programme today is the novelist Jeanette Winterson. | :01:43. | :01:44. | |
She's perhaps best known as the author of | :01:45. | :01:46. | |
This summer she hit the headlines after skinning a rabbit and posting | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
And on this programme we like to think we specialise | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
in minor controversies that blow up out of all proportion, | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
so she should feel right at home. Welcome. | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
He said he wouldn't resign despite mounting calls for him to go, but | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
in the last hour South Yorkshire's Police and Crime Commissioner has | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
stepped down from the role after weeks of pressure over | :02:13. | :02:14. | |
Shaun Wright has come under increasing fire | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
since the publication of a report into child sexual exploitation | :02:19. | :02:25. | |
in Rotherham as he was the councillor with responsibility | :02:26. | :02:27. | |
for children's services in the borough from 2005 to 2010. | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
"My role as South Yorkshire police and crime commissioner has clearly | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
become prominent in terms of public opinion and media coverage following | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
This is detracting from the important issue, which should | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
be everybody's focus - the 1,400 victims outlined in the report - and | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
in providing support to victims and bringing to justice the criminals | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
responsible for the atrocious crimes committed against them." | :02:49. | :02:59. | |
We are joined now by our correspondent Adam Fleming. Why has | :03:00. | :03:09. | |
he gone? He said he was starting to worry that he was detracting from | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
the plight of the survivors. I think he probably realised the writing was | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
on the wall last week at a meeting of the police and the panel in that | :03:21. | :03:27. | |
region. That is a committee which scrutinises the work of each crime | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
commission in each area. There was abuse from the public gallery and it | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
got quite heated so he probably saw the scale of the anger that was | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
directed at him. The pressure had been piling on him for weeks and | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
weeks and weeks. The Labour Party said he should stand down. He | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
resigned the whip but not from the job. The Home Secretary and even the | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
Prime Minister were saying, do you really want to carry on this job | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
considering what has happened? Where does that leave the role of Police | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
and Crime Commissioners? They could not actually make him go? That is | :04:05. | :04:12. | |
the point, people were asking, how can you get rid of a Police and | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
Crime Commissioner? The rules are very strict. They can only be | :04:18. | :04:20. | |
chucked out of office if they are convicted of an offence which means | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
they go to prison. That has now sparked a big discussion about what | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
should happen to these roles in the future. Labour have said they will | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
be keen to look at having some sort of recall mess them -- mechanism. | :04:33. | :04:39. | |
Theresa May has said she's prepared to have a debate. Nick Clegg has | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
said, it is this job even a good idea? Is it an experiment which has | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
not worked? In the short-term in South Yorkshire there will be a | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
by-election for summer due to take over from Mr Right. We saw easily | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
there was a by-election in the Midlands and the turnout was 10%. | :04:56. | :05:03. | |
Thank you. Jeanette, was he right to go? Yes, he should have gone right | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
from the beginning. If you are is the row hours contract worker you | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
can be out of the door straightaway. The higher up the food chain you go, | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
the harder it is to get rid of you. We have politicians who are | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
insulated from public opinion. But he has gone in the end. The he had | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
to. He is a prize that everyone is furious with him. Why have got a | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
situation where you cannot get rid of someone like him unless it is a | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
criminal offence. G4S are saying, give us contracts for ten years and | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
if you change your minds, still payoffs. We are getting to a | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
situation where we cannot throw out people in power when they have done | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
wrong. We have to wait for them to resign. It is stupid. We will see if | :05:50. | :05:52. | |
it changes, the legislation. The question for today is - | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
which is the odd one out amongst At the end of the show Jeanette | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
will give us the correct answer. With less than two days to go | :06:00. | :06:14. | |
until the polls open in the Scottish independence referendum, | :06:15. | :06:17. | |
David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg have this morning added | :06:18. | :06:19. | |
some meat on to the bones of They have signed a pledge on the | :06:20. | :06:33. | |
front of a Scottish newspaper. The pledge on the front page of | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
today's daily record newspaper promises a timetable for the | :06:39. | :06:41. | |
transfer of further powers to Scotland, in the case of the no | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
vote. The politicians guarantee that the final say on NHS funding will | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
lie with the government in Scotland, something which has become a major | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
part of the Yes campaign in recent weeks. They promise to keep the | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
mechanism which allows the higher funding in Scotland than in England, | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
known as the Barnett formula. The position for Scotland is becoming | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
clearer but what about England? Labour have been calling for more | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
devolution for English regions. This does not solve the West Lothian | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
question, the fact that MPs from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
are allowed to vote on England only matters. Some people think an | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
English parliament is the solution but the Prime Minister appeared to | :07:30. | :07:31. | |
rule this out last night saying we are not remotely at that stage. | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
I'm joined now by Conservative MP Peter Bone and Labour's Lucy Powell | :07:36. | :07:37. | |
Lucy, first of all, do we need an English parliament? What we need is | :07:38. | :07:47. | |
more devolution to the English regions. I think that city now -- | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
that train now is unstoppable. Labour have been calling for more | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
powers to the city regions. I think we now need much more serious and | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
real and significant devolution to the city regions which are chomping | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
at the bit. Here we are in Manchester, I am here in Manchester | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
and we are ready for that to come. We have been working towards that | :08:12. | :08:19. | |
for a time and we want to be unleashed. Dare I say, is it a | :08:20. | :08:29. | |
little too little, too late? What you are talking about is localism. | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
There is a broad consensus between the parties about offering more | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
devolution to other cities in England, but if further devolution | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
is agreed for Scotland, that will have huge constitutional | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
consequences for the UK which will mean more than just a few powers for | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
local government. We are not talking about a few more powers for local | :08:50. | :08:58. | |
government. This would be a significant and transformational | :08:59. | :08:59. | |
devolution. When you say transformational, what are you | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
intending to offer some of the great cities of England? More power and | :09:05. | :09:11. | |
control. Labour has promised to devolve ?30 billion of expenditure. | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
That would be the first step. We are looking at things like how cities | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
can raise their own business rates, how they can spend that, how they | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
can spend money around economic development skills, transport, | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
things that add a moment they do not have the powers to do. Alongside | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
that we would be looking for more accountability and democracy. I am a | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
strong supporter of directly elected mayors. But the people in those | :09:40. | :09:42. | |
regions have not been very strongly in support. The appetite has not | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
been there. It has not been demonstrated in the past. I will | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
come back to you in a moment. Is that going to be enough, Peter | :09:53. | :09:59. | |
Bone? No. This government is devolving power to local | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
authorities. Labour were in power for 13 years and nothing happened. | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
They tried to offer directly elected mayors and people did not want them. | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
What people are saying now is that if Scotland is going to have more | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
powers England has to have its own parliament, English votes for | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
English laws. All we have to do is exclude non-English MPs from voting | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
on English matters. That was a pledge at the last general election. | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
We are only carrying on what we said before. I think the Scottish | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
independence debate has highlighted a need for this sensible move. Is it | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
the independence debate which have highlighted it or is it that more | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
powers have been offered in the closing stages of this campaign by | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
your Prime Minister to try and get a No vote? It has highlighted it. It | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
was there. It has always been rumbling on. Now people are saying | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
in Westminster, this has to be done. People are crying out for the fact | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
we do not want Scottish MPs telling the English how to govern England. | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
Although it has existed for a long time up until now. That was the West | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
Lothian question. What about the West Lothian question, Lucy Powell? | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
Does it have to be solved if we are talking about more devolution. What | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
would be wrong with an English parliament stopping Scottish MPs | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
voting on English only matters? We have to continue to address this | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
question of the West Lothian question. How? If I had the answer | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
to that, we would have done it a long time ago. I think let's get | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
back to what is the actual question here that people are asking. I think | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
it is interesting what Peter Bone said. He said people in Westminster | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
are crying out for an English Parliament. My constituents are not. | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
Had you asked them? They are crying out for two things. The first is | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
that Westminster is increasingly remote from their lives. It is | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
remitted in terms of the decisions it takes and in their lives. The | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
second thing my constituents want is they want a better deal for | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
Manchester. They want Manchester to be able to fill its potential. I | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
don't think that an English Parliament answers either of those | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
questions. What an English Parliament does is create another | :12:23. | :12:28. | |
tier, another layer of centralised Westminster -based power. That is | :12:29. | :12:32. | |
not what my constituents are crying out for. I am not opposed to an | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
English parliament but I do not think it answers the question on the | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
table. I will come back to your question about what constituents in | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
some of the northern cities are crying out for. Would it be fairer | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
that only English MPs vote on English only issues that affect them | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
in health and education. Would it be fairer to have that? There are other | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
issues we have to consider as well. Is it right that we continue if we | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
are going to have more powers going to Scotland, that Scottish MPs | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
continue to vote on health and education and then on finance if | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
more tax-raising powers are given to Scotland? We have definitely got to | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
work these things through. You have also got to consider the unintended | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
consequences if you go down that road which is what it means for the | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
Westminster UK Parliament and the divine doing of that as well. This | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
is not going to be something that we can resolve in a debate like this. | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
This is a process that we need to consider. I think we're absolutely | :13:36. | :13:44. | |
ready to go with centralisation. Let me put these points to Peter Bone. | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
Isn't Lucy Powell right that this government has presided over | :13:50. | :13:52. | |
policies and an administration that is geared totally to London and the | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
south-east, that that is the problem and Lucy Powell is right to say, | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
what they want is more decentralisation? Not another | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
Parliament but not every policy focusing on where the votes for | :14:06. | :14:08. | |
Conservatives are in the South? Wrong on every count. More and more | :14:09. | :14:16. | |
power has been devolved. That is the point. Our localism agenda is doing | :14:17. | :14:24. | |
that. No, it hasn't. It has. You have given with one hand and taken | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
away with the other. Can you stop laughing at her. This sneery | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
contempt is really unattractive. You are smiling away as if to say these | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
girls do not know what they are talking about. Let him answer. When | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
you say, what examples can you give on localism which have made a | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
difference? We are having mayors, for example. Planning is going back | :14:50. | :14:57. | |
to local authorities. Know it is not. It is going in completely the | :14:58. | :15:05. | |
opposite direction. That is my view. Are they substantial enough powers? | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
If there was more decentralisation, would you need an English | :15:11. | :15:13. | |
Parliament? That is the point, you can never get to that point. You | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
have to have decisions about education and health which have to | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
be decided on a national level. The idea that there will be more | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
bureaucracy is nonsense. You're going to use the same building and | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
the same MPs, it will not cost a penny more. Where would the | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
constitutional home be? It would still be in Westminster. When it | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
came to UK matters, all MPs in Parliament would vote. All we are | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
saying is for purely English matters, English MPs should only | :15:46. | :15:46. | |
vote on those. Do you think David Cameron is | :15:47. | :15:56. | |
offering too much to Scotland? We don't know, it is all happening too | :15:57. | :16:03. | |
quickly. You don't know because? We know they have signed a pledge. | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
Party leaders have signed pledges before. The Tory offer is for them | :16:09. | :16:16. | |
to have total control over income tax raising powers, is it too much? | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
If we go down the route of evolution and as Lucy says it will be a | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
difficult discussion. If you're going to go down that route, you | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
have got to have English votes for English laws. Lucy Powell, the truth | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
is, whichever way you look at it, you could say Labour does not want | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
an English parliament because it would make it harder for Labour to | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
govern in Westminster. Imagine in 2015 if Ed Miliband wins with a | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
small majority it would be reliant on those MPs in Scotland and Wales | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
and then they would be able to vote on the budget which would be only | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
for England, that would be absurd? You go down the road of creating two | :17:00. | :17:09. | |
grades of MPs at your level. Then you have more important MPs and less | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
important MPs. There are some tricky issues. It is not a political point. | :17:16. | :17:28. | |
Tony Blair's election victories, he won the majorities of MPs in England | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
as well. But the likelihood is, Ed Miliband with the reliant on | :17:33. | :17:39. | |
Scotland and Wales MPs. These considerations are not based on | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
politics, they are based on what are the questions we are trying to | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
resolve. It is an internal discussion to think about the West | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
Lothian question. Frankly, most of my constituents, I would have | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
surprised if hardly any of them had heard of the issue and were bothered | :18:00. | :18:06. | |
about it. Peter Bone is shaking his head. If you had a crystal ball, | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
what would you do? Would you have a more federal UK, an English | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
Parliament and parliaments of the remainder of the UK if Scotland goes | :18:16. | :18:24. | |
independent? Or, would you have evolution to other cities or keep it | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
as it is? He find the answers when you take the question seriously. The | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
Scottish referendum has shown how strong the feeling is for default | :18:33. | :18:43. | |
powers. -- devolved powers. We don't have too have everything sitting in | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
Westminster the way we do now. There is a new generation growing up now | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
where everything is devolved on media. They don't need a group of | :18:52. | :18:58. | |
people in one place. We could think about this in a more radical way, if | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
we wanted to. Lucy is right, most people don't care about it. They | :19:04. | :19:11. | |
want to know, how am I and my city, are we going to have more say in the | :19:12. | :19:13. | |
government. Thank you to my guests. So as we've been saying | :19:14. | :19:20. | |
the main party leaders in Westminster have all been talking | :19:21. | :19:22. | |
about the powers Scotland will get Well there'll be a lot | :19:23. | :19:25. | |
of pressure for Parliament to be Normally at times | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
of great national importance MPs can be recalled to Westminster | :19:32. | :19:33. | |
at 48 hours notice, but there's talk Our political correspondent, | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
Carole Walker can tell us more. What are the options? If there is a | :19:37. | :19:50. | |
yes vote, MPs across all parties will feel that such as the | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
cataclysmic scale of the change we are confronting, it would be | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
unthinkable for parliament not to be recalled. The fracture there would | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
be on the economy, the pound, international relations, Andy Fenn | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
's and the future constitution of the country would be on such a | :20:09. | :20:18. | |
scale, MPs would undoubtedly be recalled. -- defence. Downing Street | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
are not contemplating a yes vote, not making contingency plans, so | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
there are non-contingency plans at the moment but Holloman to be | :20:29. | :20:35. | |
recalled. But in the past few weeks when there has been speculation | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
about the recall of MPs to discuss Iraq and the possibility of Britain | :20:41. | :20:47. | |
being involved in some form of military action, the whips are | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
sending out e-mails to find out where MPs would be just in case | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
parliament needed to be recalled. Quite a few MPs I have spoken to | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
think Parliament should be recalled, even if Scottish voters voted to | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
remain part of the United Kingdom. They feel it is already clear there | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
will be significant changes underway and we saw the pledge from the three | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
UK leaders today and that is something MPs should be recalled to | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
discuss. It is complicated by the fact the Labour Party Conference is | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
due to start at the weekend and many Labour MPs are expect to be there. I | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
think that the moment, it is looking probably less likely but on Friday | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
morning, I think there may be renewed calls for MPs to return to | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
discuss the future of the country. It is uncharted territory. | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
When it comes to the arts, whether it's writing, painting, | :21:45. | :21:47. | |
or even comedy, it's often assumed that the majority of artists are | :21:48. | :21:49. | |
And the few who clearly aren't - like the modern artists Gilbert | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
and George or the author PJ O'Rourke - seem to be something | :21:54. | :21:56. | |
If you paint a picture of the politics of art, the assumption is | :21:57. | :22:13. | |
art is the preserve of the left. It is an assumption and I'm not sure | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
how true it is. Art is greater than any ideology. Our response to it is | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
personal and therefore infinite. Any attempt by politicians or parties of | :22:25. | :22:31. | |
either side, to corral artists to their cause has historically been a | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
catastrophe. The art establishment is dominated by left-wing thinking | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
and left-wing expectations and there are people in the world who hold | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
more libertarian views and field their own careers could be | :22:47. | :22:49. | |
negatively affected if they were to come out. However, artists lobby all | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
governments and it is often about funding. Even a leading campaigner | :22:54. | :23:02. | |
admits money may be a personal driver of politics. If you judge a | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
system by how well it supports the less it -- less fortunate you could | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
be an artist through ideology or self-interest. You are more likely | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
to have been poor, you have almost certainly signed on and you are more | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
likely to give your support to the party who has supported you more. It | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
is interesting that some people have come out of the system and continue | :23:26. | :23:32. | |
to be left-wing. JK Rowling was a single parent and on benefits when | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
she wrote her first book but she still supports benefits and rights. | :23:38. | :23:46. | |
The trick the right think the left have conjured it those who potter | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
about in a school of thought who think it is not about class but | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
intersect -- intellectual class. Ballet receives subsidies but the | :23:56. | :24:03. | |
audience are well off enough to buy tickets at full price. Then there is | :24:04. | :24:10. | |
the more exclusively intellectual snobby art. There are things people | :24:11. | :24:17. | |
don't like and not being popular and not being able to pay its own way is | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
not assign it is great, maybe it is a sign it is rubbish and the general | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
public will want to pay to go and see it because it is not very good. | :24:27. | :24:32. | |
But there are left-wingers who think arts subsidy became funding and | :24:33. | :24:34. | |
entertaining or the rich and glamorous. Left wing entertainers | :24:35. | :24:42. | |
think it stops it being edgy. But it boils down as to whether you think | :24:43. | :24:45. | |
art is essential to our social well-being. We're not just here to | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
work our backsides off for 50 years and then died. There are other | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
things to do in between and there are other things to do than shop. | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
What else are we going to do? We have to make sure there are cheap | :25:00. | :25:02. | |
and interesting things to do for youngsters to do if they have not | :25:03. | :25:05. | |
got enough money to buy the things they are told they need to be happy. | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
If I to choose between saving a life of paying for someone to create an | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
optional piece of art which the public may or may not use choose to | :25:15. | :25:21. | |
go to, I will pay to save a life. It is that argument that has coloured | :25:22. | :25:22. | |
the politics of art for so long. Well to discuss this I'm joined | :25:23. | :25:28. | |
by the House of Cards author and Conservative peer, | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
Michael Dobbs, and of course Is there a left-wing bias or stream | :25:33. | :25:42. | |
of thinking in the arts in your mind? I think it is a bit more | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
complicated than that. Art is often has to make a point and the point | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
you have got to make is about the establishment and the existing way | :25:53. | :25:58. | |
of things. Dramatists, journalists as well as artists, tend to be - not | :25:59. | :26:04. | |
so much left or right but antiestablishment. It is the easiest | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
way to go. We have always accused the BBC of being left wing, but | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
Harold Wilson used to accuse it of being right wing. Even Winston | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
Churchill used to accuse the BBC are being left wing. But I think it was | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
more antiestablishment than having a clear political agenda. Is there a | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
feeling that a lot of comedy you hear is actually anti the right | :26:29. | :26:34. | |
rather than antiestablishment? Does the left, in a way dominate the | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
intellectual side of the arts? It has changed, everything changes. | :26:41. | :26:46. | |
Vince Margaret Hatcher came to power we have had a more ideological | :26:47. | :26:53. | |
ride. Margaret Thatcher. It is not just talking about left and right, | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
it is talking about a way that Tory party has remade itself as a party | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
and it has caused a lot of people in the arts to question those values. | :27:03. | :27:05. | |
To look at social justice and inclusion. The arts are for | :27:06. | :27:11. | |
everybody, not just for the elites, the educated and people who have | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
time, money and leisure. Everybody is created in some way. To shut that | :27:17. | :27:22. | |
are for the majority of people is wrong. That is why you get the sense | :27:23. | :27:28. | |
amongst artists that we have to be on the left because we have to be on | :27:29. | :27:36. | |
the side of inclusion. Margaret thatcher has been out of office for | :27:37. | :27:43. | |
years and this debate was going on before her. She altered the way | :27:44. | :27:49. | |
Britain is. What about on the left, surely the left can be criticised | :27:50. | :27:52. | |
for some of the ideas put forward. Why don't people on the right come | :27:53. | :27:58. | |
out and do that in the arts? On the left you want more government. You | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
say we can achieve things for you. I almost call it a deceit almost that | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
the government says it can do everything for you, left-wing | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
government can do everything for you. The right wing says, actually | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
the government cannot do all of this. Government says, we will let | :28:20. | :28:29. | |
G4S do it. You cannot privatise all of life. There are anarchists, | :28:30. | :28:36. | |
loners and misfits in the art world. When you have a big government, most | :28:37. | :28:46. | |
of us work in very solitary ways. It is not because you suddenly see | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
yourself as belonging to the left but you see yourself as a challenge | :28:52. | :28:57. | |
to the status quo. What about the contradiction you could have | :28:58. | :29:00. | |
left-wing ideas for example, being portrayed in theatre in Opera | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
maybe, but the people who watch it are the people with money and the | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
only ones who can afford the tickets. That is more true about | :29:09. | :29:15. | |
opera than theatre. That is why we have more subsidised theatre. It is | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
great people can go for ?10 and see things at the National which then | :29:22. | :29:24. | |
gets transferred is and makes a tonne of money. But I would agree | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
with you, I can afford a ticket. When I was younger I used to pay ?3 | :29:30. | :29:36. | |
and stand at the back of the gods. Let's talk about the money issue, it | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
has an influence on the arts in terms of subsidy and who can afford | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
to go and see some of the big West End shows and Opera? Art is wider | :29:46. | :29:51. | |
than Opera. At the end of the day, government should not a supporting | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
the arts to the extent it is the only way for it to survive. I am in | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
favour of temporal tickets. You think everything at the National | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
should be privately funded rush to mark not at all, it is not the point | :30:05. | :30:12. | |
I made. Art should not exist if it is only capable of existing because | :30:13. | :30:18. | |
of taxpayers money. It is OK to subsidise farming? This is a | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
subsidised country, it is all about subsidy. That is where the | :30:23. | :30:28. | |
difference is. The right wing of the argument is we should be doing with | :30:29. | :30:37. | |
less subsidy. Not only did Margaret Thatcher pay for everything by | :30:38. | :30:39. | |
selling it all off, it is all subsidy. Art and drama is not | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
documentary. Are you saying this government is not subsidising. | :30:46. | :30:52. | |
Listen to what I am saying. Are you saying this government is not | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
subsidising? Are you saying this government does not subsidise rich | :30:58. | :30:58. | |
farmers? Let's come back to the reason for | :30:59. | :31:09. | |
the subsidy on the arts. Without a lot of subsidy, the Arts Council | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
would say their subsidies have been cut. -- their grants have been cut. | :31:14. | :31:21. | |
If you go back 200 years ago, the art we are looking at now is not the | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
art of 200 years ago. It does not all take place in these glorious | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
rich stucco fronted buildings. That is a small part of art. What | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
Jeanette does, what I do, what other people do is art and we do not do | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
that in these great big buildings. It is easy for writers and it has | :31:42. | :31:58. | |
never been easier because you can self publish now. What we do is | :31:59. | :32:01. | |
cheap. When you put on a show you are talking about money and that | :32:02. | :32:04. | |
money has to come from somewhere. What you cannot have in theatre is | :32:05. | :32:06. | |
innovation without cash behind it. We need cash. Looking at artists on | :32:07. | :32:09. | |
the right, who'd you admire most? Is there someone that you do look at | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
who is broadly from the right? I really like Tracey Emin's work and | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
she has destabilised the way we think about art. She is a great | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
thing in the art world but I cannot bear her political views. You have | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
to make those distinctions. Right, we have to leave it there. | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
Now - the eagle-eyed among you will have noticed that Andrew's been | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
So far he hasn't sent so much as a postcard or the tin | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
Instead he's been on the campaign trail with both sides ahead of | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
First up, here he is out and about with the Yes campaign in Hamilton. | :32:46. | :33:06. | |
Hamilton, a working-class town to the south-east of Glasgow. This used | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
to be a place where they did not bother to count Labour votes, they | :33:12. | :33:17. | |
just weighed them. In 1967, it was the scene of one of the most | :33:18. | :33:20. | |
dramatic political upsets in political history. Willie Ewing came | :33:21. | :33:26. | |
from nowhere to win a by-election for the Scottish Nationalists. | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
Labour subsequently reclaimed the territory. This is the kind of place | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
where the Nationalists have been doing well and Yes vote will be | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
looking for a repeat of the spirit of 1967 because they need to do well | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
in places like this if they are to win on Thursday. | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
Towns like this, especially in the West of Scotland, have become the | :33:49. | :33:51. | |
battle ground for the campaign. There are a lot of older voters, | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
voters who used to vote Labour and are on modest incomes. There is a | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
fair degree of social deprivation. The Yes campaign knows it needs to | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
win a chunk of these categories if it is to win on Thursday. When I | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
spoke Alex Salmond last weekend, he said the Yes campaign was making | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
progress in every Democratic group except the over 60s. They were more | :34:16. | :34:23. | |
wary of independence. He said he would concentrate on them. That is | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
why Nicola Sturgeon is in an area like this because there are a lot of | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
old people here. They were probably traditional Labour voters but the | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
Yes people think their votes are now up for grabs. They used to just | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
weighed the votes here, didn't they? They did. It is SNP we have been | :34:41. | :34:46. | |
voting for in recent years. Labour are not better than the Tories when | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
it comes to their politics. They are going to do away with bus passes and | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
things which will affect pensioners. I am a unionist. I was in the | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
forces, I swore allegiance to the Queen. I will not be swearing | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
allegiance to help residential, whoever he is. This is not safe and | :35:06. | :35:12. | |
pensions are not safe and it is getting through to people. Is it | :35:13. | :35:19. | |
clear cut or will it be down to the wire? Down to the wire. The people | :35:20. | :35:27. | |
you speak to are worried about the National Security in Scotland. The | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
size of our army, different things. Pensions. That is a worry? That is | :35:33. | :35:39. | |
why we came today. The Yes campaign knows it has to reassure older | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
people about their pensions if it is to get their votes. Increasingly, | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
the message I think is resonating with the older generation is when | :35:49. | :35:51. | |
they know their pensions are safe, they want a very Yes to give the | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
Next Generation better prospects in the future. I think that is why we | :35:57. | :35:59. | |
will see more older people vote yes on Thursday. People think Labour | :36:00. | :36:08. | |
voters will be more for the No camp and Nationalists are more for Yes. | :36:09. | :36:14. | |
That is not how it is working. A lot of Nationalists will vote No, a lot | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
of Labour voters will vote Yes. It seems one of the biggest deciding | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
factors is levels of deprivation. The less of a stake you have on | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
society, the more you are struggling, the more likely you are | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
now to vote Yes. That is why another reason why Nicola Sturgeon is in | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
Hamilton. And on tomorrow's show you can see | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
Andrew out and about Joining us from Glasgow is | :36:42. | :36:43. | |
Richard Walker, the editor of the Sunday Herald which has come out in | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
favour of independence, and with me in the studio is the Daily Mail's | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
Deputy Editor Tony Gallagher. Welcome to both of you. | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
First of all, how much weight do newspaper editorials carry with | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
their readers? I think the days of newspapers being able to sway large | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
numbers of readers have gone, it is ever they existed. Nevertheless, I | :37:08. | :37:13. | |
think newspapers are still important. When we made our | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
declaration of favour of Yes, we got a huge groundswell of support which | :37:18. | :37:20. | |
was very heartening and welcoming for us. I think clearly we put | :37:21. | :37:27. | |
forward our arguments in favour of Yes and we hope some readers will | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
take those on board. We are not telling readers we think Yes was the | :37:33. | :37:35. | |
right answer and you should all follow what we say, our readers are | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
way smart enough to decide that for themselves. Do you agree with that | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
that they hold less power and sway these days? I think in the era of | :37:46. | :37:51. | |
social media that is undoubtedly the case. Readers by newspapers in large | :37:52. | :38:01. | |
part to reinforce their own views. They are very influential with | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
political class. I think politicians of all stripes will look at | :38:06. | :38:08. | |
newspaper editorials almost before they look at anything else to see if | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
they are mentioned in dispatches. The idea they would sway large | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
numbers of people is a myth. But you have come out in favour of the | :38:18. | :38:23. | |
union. To some extent, are you preaching to the converted? We feel | :38:24. | :38:28. | |
passionately that the union is a good thing and it should remain in | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
place. It is the most beneficial union we think has existed through | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
the modern age. We had a shared sense of national identity what | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
Scots have achieved is truly remarkable and they have punched | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
above their weight. The idea that we would be turning Scots friends, | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
neighbours and relatives into foreigners is an anathema to us | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
which is why we are fully behind the No vote and the union remaining in | :38:54. | :39:00. | |
place. Richard, is it lonely being the only paper to come out in | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
support of Alex Salmond? No, it is not lonely at all. We have a huge | :39:05. | :39:10. | |
number of readers. It is strange in a media landscape there is only one | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
newspaper in support of Yes. I think that's something about our democracy | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
and one of the we wanted to state where we stood was there is a huge, | :39:20. | :39:25. | |
at least 50% of the population support independence and there is no | :39:26. | :39:29. | |
newspaper reflecting that view. I think that is not healthy. What you | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
make of the fact that your sister paper, the Herald, has come out in | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
favour of the No campaign. Newspapers will not criticise a | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
newspaper for stating of you. Our proprietor holds us to say what we | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
think is the best outcome. That is a healthy situation for newspapers to | :39:53. | :39:57. | |
be in. The Herald and the Sunday Herald are different newspapers, | :39:58. | :40:00. | |
they have different editors. We each came to our own conclusions and they | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
are different conclusions. I think that is much healthier than having a | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
proprietor which is telling us to do one thing or have to do the same | :40:10. | :40:16. | |
thing. I think that would be an untenable situation for me as an | :40:17. | :40:20. | |
editor. The Daily Mail has been accused of printing one view on the | :40:21. | :40:26. | |
front cover of the English edition and a contrary front page in the | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
Scottish edition. Do you think that works? They do have different | :40:31. | :40:37. | |
readers. Culturally the idea that we should be presenting a uniform paper | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
would be a mistake, just as the BBC provides a different service north | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
of the border to its viewers. I think the Daily Mail quite rightly | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
should be providing a different menu for readers who have different | :40:51. | :40:53. | |
cultural and political interests. You do not think it is treating | :40:54. | :40:59. | |
readers like fools for doing that? Not at all. The idea that we should | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
be providing one newspaper the whole of Great Britain would be a mistake. | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
Scottish people have many different interests, cultural, sporting and | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
political interests. The idea they should be force-fed huge amounts of | :41:13. | :41:15. | |
Westminster politics when Holyrood is important to them would be a | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
mistake. As much as anything, it would be the road to commercial | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
ruin. People want newspapers which are relevant to them. That has been | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
a lot of speculation about what the Scottish Sun will do. Will they join | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
the yes camp, does it matter? I think it would be great if the | :41:36. | :41:38. | |
Scottish Sun came out in favour of it. It would be clearly two | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
newspapers supporting Yes rather than just one is fairer, it even is | :41:44. | :41:53. | |
the right. Do you think the spectacle of London based papers | :41:54. | :41:56. | |
coming out in favour of Better Together could harm the campaign? I | :41:57. | :42:04. | |
do not. I think what is harming the campaign is the spectacle of | :42:05. | :42:07. | |
politicians panicking and charging north of the border having woken up | :42:08. | :42:10. | |
to the idea that they might be losing in the last couple of weeks. | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
I think it has been rather un-edifying. It has smacked of | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
complacency. When they open their mouths, the tendency to resort to | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
bullying and hectoring the Scots has been a catastrophe. The idea that | :42:25. | :42:27. | |
Scotland would not be capable of ruling on its own as an insult and | :42:28. | :42:36. | |
extremely patronising. But equally, the idea that we should be shouting | :42:37. | :42:38. | |
at Scots the entire time without highlighting benefits of the unit -- | :42:39. | :42:41. | |
union would be a mistake. Newspapers, Jeanette, could you be | :42:42. | :42:49. | |
persuaded? I could be persuaded. I am a Guardian reader, what do you | :42:50. | :42:56. | |
expect? Surprise, surprise! I read the Daily Telegraph sometimes and | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
also the Daily Mail as well. We do not need on a law, we need a | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
dialogue, that is what newspapers can offer. You need people who can | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
put across a point of view to allow you to change our mind. I think we | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
need to be more optimistic. If a newspaper has a strong belief, a | :43:14. | :43:16. | |
strong opinion, then why not put it across. I want someone to argue with | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
me. As long as it is not the karate chop syntax of fake headlines to | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
sell the paper, let's have a proper debate. The idea we should not have | :43:26. | :43:32. | |
proper opinions is a mistake. The idea that newspaper editorials can | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
change your mind is overstated and as much a newspaper myth as reality. | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
Gentlemen, thank you very much. Enjoy the last few days. | :43:42. | :43:44. | |
The women that I knew who raised me calm and thoughtful? | :43:45. | :43:54. | |
The women that I knew who raised me and millions of people like me, who | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
ran our factories and our businesses, put out the fires when | :44:00. | :44:05. | |
the bombs trot, they would not have recognised their definition of | :44:06. | :44:15. | |
womanliness as being incorporated in an iconic model of Margaret | :44:16. | :44:18. | |
Thatcher, two rebuke to the first Prime Minister deputed by female | :44:19. | :44:28. | |
gender, OK, but a woman, not on my terms. The big thing is UKIP and | :44:29. | :44:35. | |
Nigel Farage. Come over here, the Romanians and Bulgarians are putting | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
everything at risk. I think he looks like someone has put their finger at | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
his bottom. Are you allowed to say that? It is too late! He can | :44:46. | :44:51. | |
embarrass and self, he can disgrace his party but what is intolerable is | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
he has cynically raised the hopes of hundreds and thousands... Miserable | :44:57. | :45:09. | |
pipsqueak of a man! Order, order, before we go any further, I must ask | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
the honourable gentleman to withdraw the term he used. I think I heard | :45:15. | :45:20. | |
the term pipsqueak. The honourable gentleman must withdraw that term. | :45:21. | :45:32. | |
You say the public switch off at political slanging matches? If you | :45:33. | :45:44. | |
look at PMQs, it is the only bit of the debate people tune into. It is | :45:45. | :45:50. | |
the only way to test parliamentarian's metal. Everything | :45:51. | :46:00. | |
is so manufactured. The one time we get to see what politicians are like | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
is when they go to and Neil at each other. To avoid that it would leave | :46:05. | :46:10. | |
us with these endless drones of dieticians who are boring and dull. | :46:11. | :46:17. | |
-- politicians. We see them in their most natural state when they are | :46:18. | :46:25. | |
aggressive. Isn't that true? People want characters, personalities, | :46:26. | :46:27. | |
mavericks and people to speak their mind. The way Harry outlined it, it | :46:28. | :46:34. | |
is stage-managed, why do we have more of the argy-bargy? It is a | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
little bit stage-managed. I think you are right about the spin and | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
stage management. And stage management. And we think it is just | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
a performance and we cannot get behind to the truth. I am just not | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
sure we really need to have the slanging matches and are getting | :46:53. | :46:56. | |
down and dirty when we're watching people have a debate. I have got an | :46:57. | :47:03. | |
issue because I do think there is a gender problem, because a lot of | :47:04. | :47:06. | |
women are not attracted by that and not very good at it. You are good at | :47:07. | :47:14. | |
it. Harriet Harman is not a shrinking violet. She is going at it | :47:15. | :47:23. | |
like the rest of them. The transport minister, the defence minister, they | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
are powerful women. I resent the fact people will say, shouting isn't | :47:29. | :47:34. | |
for women. We have this model as if it is almost, what we are seeing is | :47:35. | :47:43. | |
this is how politics is being done which is a male preserve and if we | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
put a woman in their she has got to behave like one of the boys. We say | :47:49. | :47:51. | |
she has got balls. We use these terms. If the model of a politician | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
is a male combative model, maybe women want to do things differently. | :47:57. | :48:04. | |
I think they do. Isn't there a line between passionate debate and | :48:05. | :48:07. | |
personal slanging matches? Sometimes the debate does get reduced to a | :48:08. | :48:14. | |
slanging match which does not show the intellectual power of | :48:15. | :48:16. | |
politicians. There are lines we cannot cross, it has to be around | :48:17. | :48:26. | |
the issue at hand. A good parliamentarian is the one who has | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
the skills to remain on the right side of the rules. I think people | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
should care I get angry, it does matter. I would like to see | :48:36. | :48:38. | |
politicians going out more with their constituents and having to | :48:39. | :48:46. | |
but... A bit like the Scottish campaign, out on the streets. Jim | :48:47. | :48:52. | |
Murphy, a Labour hard man saying they threw eggs at me and called me | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
names. Alastair Darling when he was confronted by the TV debate | :48:58. | :49:00. | |
audience, he said it was an Axa double. Nigel Farage said he did not | :49:01. | :49:13. | |
like it out in the field. Nigel Farage deserves what he gets. If | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
they are to be strong and tough, do they have to withstand that thing? | :49:19. | :49:22. | |
It comes with the territory. You have to expect some people will not | :49:23. | :49:28. | |
like you and freedom of speech is not just for politicians it is for | :49:29. | :49:32. | |
people to vent their anger to politicians. There is a line and | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
when it becomes physical intimidation, it is an issue. The | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
idea politicians are not the most popular people in the world is | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
absurd. They should wake up and realise this anger is out there. We | :49:46. | :49:52. | |
are saying get on the streets and you will feel the anger coming back | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
at you. It is the level of debate in Westminster which distracts from the | :49:57. | :49:59. | |
important questions the public are trying to grasp. Serious things. | :50:00. | :50:07. | |
Party political point scoring? Yes. I agree, we are about to enter into | :50:08. | :50:16. | |
a general election campaign full of tedium. The reason we are going to | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
be able to test politicians are when things go wrong and get nasty. When | :50:21. | :50:27. | |
they make mistakes. The point I was trying to make is, we should be | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
celebrating these mistakes and celebrate the rawness of politics | :50:32. | :50:34. | |
because that is when we see the truth. Does it turn voters off, do | :50:35. | :50:40. | |
you feel people just think, it is not for me? I think this shouting | :50:41. | :50:46. | |
turns people off, but if we got politicians out onto the streets and | :50:47. | :50:50. | |
have them participating in a democracy rather than sit down | :50:51. | :50:56. | |
democracy, this is what we were talking about at the beginning. | :50:57. | :50:59. | |
Politicians are often insulated from the views of the public. Let's see | :51:00. | :51:06. | |
what happens in Scotland before we can decide whether the negativity of | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
raw politics turns people off. It has been a passionate campaign. This | :51:11. | :51:17. | |
is such an important issue and the Scots are on it, unlike the wimpy | :51:18. | :51:18. | |
English. Let's leave it there. And now back to the Scottish | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
independence referendum. According to reports this morning | :51:23. | :51:24. | |
the unionists have been outgunned by independence supporters | :51:25. | :51:27. | |
in the final days of the campaign when it comes to billboards, | :51:28. | :51:30. | |
leaflets and knocking on doors. But just how important has | :51:31. | :51:32. | |
advertising been over Well if you're watching in Scotland | :51:33. | :51:34. | |
you can hardly have missed them, but for the rest of our viewers here's a | :51:35. | :51:42. | |
taste of what you've been missing. I am going to be born on the 18th of | :51:43. | :52:08. | |
September 2014. The very same day as the referendum on independence for | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
Scotland. Have you made a decision yet? I was like, it is too early to | :52:14. | :52:21. | |
be discussing politics. Independence, it is what we want in | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
our lives so why should our country be independent. We don't want to be | :52:26. | :52:31. | |
a separate nation, we want to be a better nation. You know what? I have | :52:32. | :52:42. | |
made up my mind. I am going to do what is best for Scotland. So, that | :52:43. | :52:50. | |
will be known from me. When the 18th of September arrives and I arrived, | :52:51. | :52:56. | |
please vote yes for Scotland, for yourself and for your children's | :52:57. | :53:02. | |
future. Right, I have heard that one before. Watching that was Chris | :53:03. | :53:12. | |
Fairhurst from an advertising agency and Gordon Young who is an editor. | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
Gordon, what makes a good elliptical advert? Something that can sum up | :53:17. | :53:25. | |
the proposition neatly and put it forward in a clean and single-minded | :53:26. | :53:34. | |
way. Do people agonise, we have seen advertising agencies going over | :53:35. | :53:38. | |
slogans and headlines? People do agonise. People in the public would | :53:39. | :53:45. | |
be amazed how long people spend coming up with 32nd television | :53:46. | :53:51. | |
adverts. What effect do you think adverts and the leaflets have had on | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
this independence referendum campaign? I think the adverts, | :53:56. | :54:04. | |
posters and TV commercials, my suspicion is not very much at all. I | :54:05. | :54:09. | |
inked the marketing that probably hasn't had a lot -- has had a lot | :54:10. | :54:20. | |
more effect, the more 121 advertising. Partly because of the | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
nature of the campaign but also because of the advertising that has | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
been done is not very good. Do you agree? People pay a lot for | :54:28. | :54:35. | |
advertising. In America, they think it works to a great extent. But do | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
you agree it has not had a great impact? Relative to what political | :54:40. | :54:45. | |
advertising looks like, the Yes campaign has look good. The Better | :54:46. | :54:50. | |
Together campaign has look poor. Why is that? It has been a bit | :54:51. | :54:58. | |
disjointed. Is it Better Together, let's stick together, is it no | :54:59. | :55:03. | |
thanks? They have come out with all sorts of different colours and | :55:04. | :55:08. | |
oppositions. The Yes campaign has been more consistent and | :55:09. | :55:14. | |
professional. Is it easier because it has been clearer than having | :55:15. | :55:17. | |
three other parties joining with slightly different messages? I am | :55:18. | :55:24. | |
certain it is part of it. I think also, the Yes campaign has been more | :55:25. | :55:30. | |
coherent because the advertising tends to be an emotional medium and | :55:31. | :55:38. | |
I think the Yes campaign's idea has been an emotional idea. Where as the | :55:39. | :55:41. | |
No campaign have attempted to communicate through rational fact. | :55:42. | :55:48. | |
What they have learned is it does not do the job of persuading people, | :55:49. | :55:54. | |
you need to do both. How would you choose who would represent your yes | :55:55. | :55:56. | |
or No campaign? Who would you have going back, who would trusted and | :55:57. | :56:03. | |
credible? The big opportunity for the Yes campaign is it is a positive | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
proposition from the start. They have had the commercial where they | :56:09. | :56:14. | |
featured a baby who was born on referendum day and trying to work | :56:15. | :56:17. | |
out what would happen over the lifetime of that child. Selling hope | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
which is tied up with a new baby. The No campaign have been negative | :56:23. | :56:28. | |
with the proposition of the woman. They had a woman who said she is too | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
busy for politics because she is too busy serving her family serial. It | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
is not so much the individuals, it is what they are saying that is | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
important. Do you agree with the mother in the campaign because it | :56:44. | :56:48. | |
has been criticised. I do agree with that. Not going to appeal to the | :56:49. | :56:54. | |
family and women voters? Particularly these days, people are | :56:55. | :57:00. | |
very sophisticated in terms of how they understand advertising. I would | :57:01. | :57:08. | |
lay this criticism to both camps. Simply putting the person in the ad | :57:09. | :57:12. | |
you want to talk to and said this is a person of your age, sex or | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
whatever, and said this message is for you. People see through that and | :57:18. | :57:24. | |
want more these days. Do you think it is worth spending those sums of | :57:25. | :57:31. | |
money on these campaigns? It is high risk, but when you get it right. In | :57:32. | :57:36. | |
the case are Better Together, probably best to do nothing at all. | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
Their strategy has not converted a lot of no voters to yes. So when you | :57:41. | :57:47. | |
get it wrong it can go badly wrong. What do you think is most important, | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
leaflets through the door, as opposed to TV adverts? Leaflets | :57:52. | :57:58. | |
through the door, it has been the physical passion that has fired up | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
the Scots. Both campaigns have been a bit wishy-washy. If you are not in | :58:03. | :58:09. | |
the United Kingdom, these adverts look exactly alike and they just | :58:10. | :58:15. | |
took the captions off them and you could not tell the difference. But | :58:16. | :58:18. | |
on the ground, people can feel the heat. Thank you both very much. | :58:19. | :58:22. | |
There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz. | :58:23. | :58:25. | |
Which is the odd one out. I hope it is Nick Clegg. If not, let it beat | :58:26. | :58:48. | |
John Major, which is it? It is Nick Clegg. | :58:49. | :58:51. |