Browse content similar to 19/09/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Supporters of the Union celebrate as Scotland votes No to independence | :00:17. | :00:54. | |
Alex Salmond concedes defeat in the campaign, but says the result | :00:55. | :01:04. | |
shows huge demand for change and calls for the swift devolution | :01:05. | :01:06. | |
David Cameron promises to deliver on his commitment to more Scottish | :01:07. | :01:12. | |
But he also says it's time for English devolution, | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
including an end to Scottish MPs voting on purely English matters | :01:19. | :01:20. | |
Ed Miliband could lack a majority for his English agenda | :01:21. | :01:31. | |
if he couldn't count on his Scottish votes. | :01:32. | :01:38. | |
In the end, the NOs had it and by a bigger 10-point majority than | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
Over the next hour, we'll bring you all the latest | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
on last night's historic vote and the big constitutional changes for | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
the whole of the UK which are now promised by all the main parties. | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
It was a solid margin of victory for the No campaign in Scotland, | :01:57. | :01:58. | |
one that looks like settling the matter for the foreseeable future. | :01:59. | :02:05. | |
55% voted in favour of Scotland remaining part of the UK, | :02:06. | :02:07. | |
It was the highest ever turn-out in a British election, | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
with 85% of those who'd registered to vote casting their ballot. | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
That meant that just over two million voters said No - | :02:18. | :02:19. | |
Speaking shortly after 6am this morning, the First Minister | :02:20. | :02:26. | |
of Scotland, Alex Salmond, conceded defeat, but demanded that party | :02:27. | :02:28. | |
leaders in Westminster make good on their last-minute campaign promise | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
Scotland has, by majority, decided not, at this stage, to become an | :02:32. | :02:49. | |
independent country. I accept that verdict of the people and I call on | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
all of Scotland to follow suit and access the democratic verdict of the | :02:55. | :02:56. | |
people of Scotland. - accept. All of us in this campaign will say | :02:57. | :03:16. | |
that 55%, that 1.6 million votes is a substantial vote for Scottish | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
independence and the future of this country. | :03:21. | :03:21. | |
Less than an hour later, at just after 7am, David Cameron spoke to | :03:22. | :03:24. | |
The people of Scotland have spoken and it is a clear result. They've | :03:25. | :03:39. | |
kept our country of four nations together. Like millions of other | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
people, I am delighted. As I said during the campaign, it would have | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
broken my heart to see our United Kingdom come to an end and I know | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
that sentiment was shared by people not just across our country, bottles | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
around the world because of what we've achieved together in the past | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
and what we can do together in the future. | :04:03. | :04:04. | |
But he didn't just repeat his promise to Scotland. | :04:05. | :04:06. | |
Under pressure from his backbenchers and even | :04:07. | :04:08. | |
a few cabinet ministers, he had a commitment to the rest of the UK. | :04:09. | :04:16. | |
The crucial part missing from this national discussing - discussion is | :04:17. | :04:23. | |
England. We've heard the voice of Scotland and now the millions of | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
voices of England must also be heard. The question of English votes | :04:27. | :04:35. | |
for English laws, the so-called West Lothian question, requires a | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
decisive answer. Just as Scotland will vote separately in the Scottish | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
Parliament on their issues of tax, spending and welfare, so to England, | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
as well as Wales and Northern Ireland, should be able to vote on | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
these issues. All this must take in place in tandem with and at the same | :04:55. | :05:01. | |
pace as the Scotland. The Prime Minister adding in English | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
devolution and maybe more devolution for Wales and Northern Ireland, on | :05:06. | :05:08. | |
top of his promise for more devolution to Scotland. We will be | :05:09. | :05:15. | |
joined shortly by Kevin McCann of the observer, who backed the yes | :05:16. | :05:18. | |
campaign. We are waiting for him in class guy. - Glasgow. | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
And with me here in London are Anne McElvoy of the Economist, | :05:25. | :05:26. | |
Let's talk now to the Defence Secretary, Michael Fallon, | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
Last night was a very good result for the no campaign. If we turn our | :05:31. | :05:40. | |
minds back to what a lot of us were thinking at the outset when this | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
referendum was announced, we thought the result would perhaps be more | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
obviously a no. What has happened is the authority Mr Cameron has had has | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
been eaten away and now he has to regain that. He has the ten point no | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
vote under his belt, but if it had gone the other way, we would be | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
talking about whether he would survive. Is it going to be the | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
disunited States of Britain? How does he get around that? Ten points | :06:08. | :06:14. | |
isn't bad as a lead. It is a good lead. If I was advising Scots, I | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
would say listen carefully to what Alex Salmond said, he said at this | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
stage. Would you really not take no for an answer? That the Scottish | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
National question. I don't think Scotland needs a Scottish National | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
party any more, it needs a realignment of its own politics so | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
it can get on with the business of discussing its own top one of the | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
striking aspects of the campaign was a lot of Scots didn't know what the | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
Scottish Government was responsible for. Now it will get more powers so | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
there's an argument for realising - realigning in Scotland. There was a | :06:51. | :07:01. | |
panic and we saw that panic. There was a sense in which constant nation | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
- constitutional reform was privatised to Gordon Brown. | :07:05. | :07:12. | |
Outsourcing. I like the word privatised and Gordon Brown being | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
together. He's now living with that, he has to do something that. The | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
backbenches and some of his cabinet ministers are furious at the lack of | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
consultation so they are saying, you can go ahead and do this, but we | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
want English devolution as well. We are back to the Michael Howard | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
proposal. English votes, England needs more of a say. David Cameron | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
back then was supportive of that view, and then decided to go for an | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
all in approach, turned himself into that kind of Tory leader. If he | :07:45. | :07:50. | |
turned himself back, he has to take this seriously. Devo-max being | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
thrown onto the table. It's not devo-max. Devo-max applies to | :07:55. | :08:03. | |
basically everything is devolved, including all taxation powers except | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
foreign policy, defence and make - macroeconomic policy. Devo-max would | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
involve Scots collecting all their tax. This is TiVo plus. | :08:13. | :08:21. | |
- devo-plus. This is where the immediate pressure is going to come | :08:22. | :08:30. | |
from. Why did he not consult his party? They didn't expect this. | :08:31. | :08:39. | |
Would it have been better to put that devo thing on the agenda | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
earlier so everyone could have a say? The sense that his party didn't | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
have a say was what I was driving at. Although they have a fair idea | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
what they want to do in Scotland, I would suggest they are at base camp | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
with what they want to do in England and there is no agreement between | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
the parties. The problem is every attempt the governments have had to | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
make the English accept greater devolution has been defeated by | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
English people. Most viewers of this programme do not even know that in | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
2004 there was a referendum in which 900,000 people voted by 78% to 22% | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
not to have a regional assembly. When they put the question of having | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
an elected mayors to the major cities in the autumn of 2012, eight | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
out of the nine asked said no. Only Bristol said yes and Doncaster said | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
they wanted to retain one. The assumption made that the English are | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
gagging for particular forms of devolution is not true. Talk to | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
people about constitutional reform in this country, as I found out, is | :09:47. | :09:53. | |
really tricky. But what has happened in England, and the polls show | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
this, is that with Scottish devolution and the Scottish argument | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
being on our TV sets every night, the English are starting to say, if | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
it's good enough to Scotland, we'll have some of that. Don't divide us | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
by region, don't think that decentralisation to big cities is | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
the same as devolution, we want to vote on our schools in the same way | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
Scotland does. David is right, every time they've been offered Ham and | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
eggs or double ham and eggs, everybody said they didn't want ham | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
and dates. That's different to a situation where Scotland has been | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
thrown extra powers in it attempt to keep it in the union, which was | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
successful. The mood around it is different now to what David | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
describes. Things were often put to people when they weren't prepared. | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
Psychologically or emotionally. It's very different and the degree of | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
engagement in England, listening to people in supermarkets, they are | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
very engaged now with the Scottish question in a way they weren't. Even | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
if that's true, there's a problem. Morning the Prime Minister hitched | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
English devolution to Scottish devolution. The two had to go in | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
tandem. I don't see how they can do that. That's a real problem. They | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
got some kind of agreement about what should go to Scotland in the | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
event of a no vote. They should deliver on that before we start | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
messing around with questions of devolution in England. The question | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
of an English parliament is so fraught with difficulties for the | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
simple reason that if you have a First Minister of England, what's | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom for? You do in Germany and a | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
lot of federal countries. You have very powerful first ministers. | :11:44. | :11:50. | |
England is so much bigger than any of the other components put | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
together. The only equivalent of having a lender system in England | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
would be divide England into equal parts, London and the Midlands and | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
so on. And there's no appetite for that at the moment. I would support | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
it, but almost everything I support, people don't like. We will talk a | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
lot about this. Let's go live to Glasgow when Norman Smith is. What's | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
it like the morning after the night before? It's striking. Glass go is | :12:20. | :12:27. | |
one of the few places that voted yes and people are having to come to | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
terms with last night's decision. Although we heard a lot about the | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
motivation and the commitment and the pattern - Passion of the yes | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
side, maybe what we underestimated wants this ear - sheer determination | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
of the quiet no majority to come out and vote. These are people who buy | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
and large weren't doing interviews, they weren't doing vox pops in the | :12:52. | :12:57. | |
street, but in the privacy of the polling booth, they let their true | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
feelings show. The second thing is looking at the Labour vote, there | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
seemed a moment when Alex Salmond was just taking huge chunks out of | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
it. What we saw last night is when you look at Clackmannanshire, | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
Renfrewshire, those kinds of places, the Labour vote held up much | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
better than even some of the Labour people thought. Why? I suspect in | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
part it was because of Gordon Brown's intervention. He galvanised | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
the Labour vote where previously it seemed flat and dispirited. I do | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
think his intervention was almost in a motion or kick-start for the | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
Labour vote which in the end, by and large, hung in there on the side of | :13:39. | :13:45. | |
the no team. The silent majority and a more solid Labour vote explain why | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
at the end of the day the no side have recorded a fairly significant | :13:51. | :13:56. | |
victory. Norman, are we sure that the Nationalists will accept this is | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
over for the foreseeable future? Perhaps for a generation? Will they | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
look at bringing it back? Is Alex Salmond's position safe or is Nicola | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
Sturgeon beginning to measure the curtains? My sense of the latter | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
part is that Alex Salmond's position is certainly safe for now. If he had | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
been pushed down to 40% or below, I think it would be a very, very | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
different situation. He can now point to pushing up the | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
pro-independence phot to 45%. Bear in mind a few months ago it was down | :14:32. | :14:38. | |
at 25%. He's pushed it right out and he will get more powers from | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
Westminster so he can claim that is a significant achievement. Is | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
independence over for a generation? I would be cautious about that. When | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
Alex Salmond has said it's over for a generation, he always that is my | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
view. He won't be around for a generation. There will be a new | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
generation of Scottish Nationalists. Will they sit on their hands | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
forever? That's more questionable. In the interim, will the SNP | :15:07. | :15:18. | |
strategy not be, given where they did do well, what you would call | :15:19. | :15:20. | |
Labour areas, Dundee, Glasgow and so on, will they not now attempt to | :15:21. | :15:23. | |
replace Scottish Labour as the country's centre-left party? One of | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
the interesting things about this whole referendum, it is basically | :15:30. | :15:32. | |
round one between the Scottish National party and the Labour Party, | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
who are engaged in pretty much a fight to the death to be the left of | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
centre party in Scotland, and we will see round two in the 2016 | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
general election, and who knows, maybe we will see Gordon Brown | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
against Nicola Sturgeon. But it is a fight to the death between the two | :15:51. | :15:57. | |
stipes -- Nicolas Sturgeon. The question is whether the Labour Party | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
managers to reenergise itself, rebuild itself, because it has been | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
profoundly damaged by the perception of being in hock to the London | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
party, but not for the understanding the aspirations and sentiment, and | :16:11. | :16:20. | |
even nationalism. There is a bit task for the Labour Party to try to | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
counterpart the SNP's, nation of centre politics. One of the threads | :16:27. | :16:34. | |
Scottish Labour may face is that the Nationalists will say all right, you | :16:35. | :16:37. | |
have voted no, but you can't trust these people in Westminster. They | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
may not deliver this home rule, as Gordon Brown called it. The surest | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
way of doing it is to send us to Westminster. We will keep their feet | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
to the fire. Obviously, the SNP, now independents has gone, has to keep | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
itself by continuously suggesting there is a tension between Scotland | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
and Westminster, but there are dangers for Alex Salmond and the SNP | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
in doing that, because one of the things that polls show, in | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
attitudinal terms, is Scotland is put in much the same as everybody | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
else in the United Kingdom, which leaves an immense space in the | :17:15. | :17:20. | |
centre right, which the SNP has imposed a Nationalist blanket over | :17:21. | :17:23. | |
the large sections of the centre-left and centre-right. The | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
question or not is whether Scotland retains that. One of the hidden | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
things in it has been the extraordinary performance of the | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
Scots Conservatives. 95% of them wanted to stay. They got the vote. I | :17:36. | :17:45. | |
am not completely ruling out a return of a centre-right bloc which | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
would give the SNP some problems. There won't be a centre right swing, | :17:51. | :18:01. | |
and that is why the Conservatives want all income taxed to go there, | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
because they want a correlation between how much the parliament | :18:06. | :18:08. | |
spends on how much is taxed. Then the interim, I would suggest, even | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
though the side one, there is something of a crisis for the | :18:14. | :18:16. | |
Scottish Labour Party. I think so, and I think the fact that Gordon | :18:17. | :18:22. | |
Brown, and I have to say, I think his performance was absolutely | :18:23. | :18:29. | |
instrumental in this result. I think the Scottish Labour Party looked... | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
I no they sense only people up there, the rising generation, the Ed | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
Miliband stars over the summer, and in fact it didn't seem to do much | :18:37. | :18:49. | |
good at all, and it was only when Gordon came up with those jump leads | :18:50. | :18:52. | |
he provided to the No campaign, he found the hearts and minds of the | :18:53. | :18:55. | |
central Belt. That's when things started to change. Gordon is not a | :18:56. | :18:58. | |
player now. What are you going to do now? Let me quickly go back to | :18:59. | :19:00. | |
Norman, finally. Does it not tell us something about the state of the | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
Scottish Labour Party, Norman, that the big figures on the Labour side | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
for better together were Alistair Darling, Westminster MP, Gordon | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
Brown, Westminster MP, Jim Murphy, Westminster MP, indeed at one Better | :19:14. | :19:23. | |
Together meeting run by Labour, they said they would rather have Ruth | :19:24. | :19:30. | |
Davidson fan Joanne Lamont. I take your point, but I would not | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
underestimate the galvanising effect this result probably has on the | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
Scottish Labour Party. They have been taking a battering for a long | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
time, and I wonder if this will give them a chance just to draw breath | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
and represent themselves to the Scottish people. I do also say watch | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
Gordon Brown. I see he is making a big speech tomorrow, just listening | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
to the language of that man, ice eyes he sees a role for himself back | :19:56. | :20:02. | |
in -- I surmise he sees a role for himself back in front line politics | :20:03. | :20:05. | |
in Scotland. He hasn't said as much, but the reception he has received, | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
he has energised, he is full of it, it has a passion for Scotland. We | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
remember him down at Westminster, a broken, cowled, shrunken figure. It | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
is like Gordon Brown of 20 years ago here. If I had money to place, I | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
would say Gordon Brown would seek to lead the Scottish Labour Party. | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
Really? Have you told Jim Murphy that yet, Norman? LAUGHTER | :20:29. | :20:34. | |
Not yet, that's a very good point! It is clear they are going to have | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
to do something. If they face an attack from the SNP on the left, | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
they will have to energise it. When I was out in North Lanarkshire and | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
Hamilton, a lot of lapsed Labour voters, a lot of people who had been | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
lifetime Labour voters, but they were voting yes. They were voting | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
for independence because they just felt that the Labour Party did not | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
do anything for them any more. Let's be honest, the Labour Party has been | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
for so long the establishment up there, and in many ways not always a | :21:05. | :21:07. | |
very attractive sort of establishment. And the other thing, | :21:08. | :21:10. | |
which I think they struggle from, is that many, many people who vote for | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
the Scottish National party are clearly not Nationalists. They vote | :21:16. | :21:18. | |
for the SNP, I think, because they think the SNP will strike a much | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
harder deal with Westminster politicians, and they want somebody | :21:23. | :21:25. | |
who will go into the corner and fight much harder than they suspect | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
Labour politicians, who perhaps are a bit more accommodating, because | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
they are part of a UK wide party. So if you a Scot who wants a better | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
deal for Scotland and more power devolved Scotland, and you want to | :21:39. | :21:41. | |
stand up to the Westminster government, you may not be a | :21:42. | :21:44. | |
Nationalist but you may think you know what, I think those SNP people | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
will get me a better deal, and I suspect that probably fuels a lot of | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
the SNP support up here. Norman, thanks for that, and for all of our | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
interviews during this campaign, it's been a pleasure, thank you very | :21:58. | :22:05. | |
much. Where does Labour go here? There is a danger for Labour in this | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
that they could lose seats to the Nationalists. They have now got this | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
question of the Tories in England putting the West Lothian question. | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
The risk is that Lynton Crosby will unleash the anti-English attack on | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
them. But I am not at all sure in the sort of seats where Labour are | :22:25. | :22:32. | |
fighting the Tories, one of the biggest problem is that was obvious | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
was when Ed Miliband went up to Scotland from England, nobody really | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
much seemed to notice him. All right, let's leave that here for the | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
moment. I want to go to the Defence Secretary, Michael Fallon, he is in | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
Westminster. Welcome to the Daily Politics. When the Prime Minister | :22:52. | :22:59. | |
outsourced constitutional reform to Gordon Brown, was the cabinet | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
consulted? Look, he didn't outsource it to Gordon Brown first we have | :23:04. | :23:06. | |
been looking at these things for a long time as you know very well, | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
Andrew. We had the Mackay commission looking at the sorts of things, | :23:10. | :23:12. | |
successive Cabinet commissions have been looking at this. William Hague | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
is now to take this forward, we have the Liberal Democrats participating. | :23:18. | :23:19. | |
Even this morning, the Scottish Nationalist party participating. The | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
question is will Labour stepped up to the plate and join in? Gordon | :23:26. | :23:31. | |
Brown made some specific devolution proposals and backed it up with a | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
timetable, talking about command white papers. Was that run past the | :23:36. | :23:41. | |
Cabinet? We have been discussing these things, as I have just told | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
you, for a long time. Was it run past the Cabinet? It is a simple | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
question. The simple answer is yes, we did discuss the constitutional | :23:52. | :23:54. | |
settlement, we have been doing that for a long time. Did the full | :23:55. | :24:02. | |
Cabinet discussed the proposal is that Gordon Brown made in his | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
speech, yes or no? You are getting into procedural points. Let me tell | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
you that the government has been discussing more devolution for | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
Scotland ever since the Mackay commission reported... Was the | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
Cabinet consulted? The Cabinet has been involved in this whole process | :24:22. | :24:24. | |
right from the very start, and we have now set out a very clear | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
timetable, not simply Gordon Brown's timetable, we have set that | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
out now, there will be a working party under William Hague, a | :24:33. | :24:35. | |
consultation, a white paper, then draft legislation. We are going to | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
aim to do all of that before the election express. Did you know what | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
Gordon Brown was going to say before he said it? We all know what the | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
drift of this is, we have got to offer the Scottish people and the | :24:49. | :24:51. | |
Scottish Parliament a better settlement. We have to do the same | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
for England as well. You know the drift but not the content? I don't | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
look at the exact content of Gordon Brown's speeches, I don't think he | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
looks at mine, but we are all clear, ourselves and the Liberal Democrats | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
and the SNP this morning, that we need to re-examine the current | :25:09. | :25:10. | |
devolution settlement both for England and for Scotland, and we | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
have now set out a very clear timetable for doing that. So the | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
question of who exactly said what when and so on really is less | :25:20. | :25:22. | |
academic than that commitment from the three main parties to get on | :25:23. | :25:25. | |
with this now. Do you agree with your former Cabinet colleague, Owen | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
Paterson, that the Prime Minister has agreed to some "very rash | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
promises"? No, I don't agree with that. We need to have more | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
devolution, and acknowledge the strength of feeling in Scotland. | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
They need more control over tax, overspending, over the welfare | :25:45. | :25:47. | |
system, but it's equally important to recognise that you can't do that | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
without a fair and balanced system that will allowing them to have the | :25:53. | :25:54. | |
same, and will make sure that English votes only for English laws | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
and English taxes. That is what I think Owen Paterson will welcome. | :26:01. | :26:06. | |
English votes for English laws, is that the policy of the coalition or | :26:07. | :26:09. | |
the policy of the Conservative Party? It is certainly the policy of | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
the Conservative Party, the Prime Minister said that at this morning. | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
The Liberal Democrats too want to see a rebalanced political | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
settlement. The question you should be asking is Labour prepared to | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
answer this, prepared to step up and accent that Scottish Labour MPs | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
should no longer vote on taxes and laws and welfare that applies only | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
in England, and you should be asking Labour that very question. I am | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
always grateful when you help me to give questions to the Labour Party, | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
though to be honest, I do really need your help. Let me ask you this | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
instead, if the coalition, the Lib Dems, are largely onside with this, | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
why did Danny Alexander say on the 17th of September, only a few days | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
ago, there is no party proposing to take away the voting rights of | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
Scottish MPs, that is not part of the agenda, that is not what is | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
going to happen? I will help you further here by saying obviously you | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
need to ask Danny Alexander to account for what he has said. We set | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
out our position very carefully, the new settlement has to be fairer... | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
But you don't me you had the Lib Dems onside. They are onside in | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
recognising that we'd have a more balanced settlement. That is not | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
going to happen, what a bit of the English language do you not | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
understand about Danny Alexander saying it is not going to happen. We | :27:31. | :27:36. | |
will see. William Hague will convene these discussions with the liberal | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
Democrats, and part of the Coalition Government. Obviously, we hope other | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
parties will contribute as well. The other encouraging news is that the | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
SNP will, you have already accepted that you need to press Labour on | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
that. Nobody has an exact way forward here. It is a difficult | :27:55. | :27:57. | |
question, but we are going to get to grips with it and publish our | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
proposals before the general election. The prime and are still | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
says that he needed consensus to take these English devolution | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
proposals forward. If you have Danny Alexander saying it's not going to | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
happen, and we know from speaking to Labour MPs that that is the last | :28:14. | :28:16. | |
thing they want, to lose their voting rights of Scottish MPs, where | :28:17. | :28:23. | |
is the consensus coming from? All parties have to accept, now, that | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
there is a great deal of unease in England, in other parts of the | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
United Kingdom. If more powers are granted to Scotland without some | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
compensating rebalancing of the Blitz was adamant. You will hear | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
voices in the Labour Party, like John Denham, recognising that, and I | :28:44. | :28:45. | |
am sure there are English Liberal Democrats who will recognise that as | :28:46. | :28:51. | |
well. If you cannot get agreement on English devolution, does the plan | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
for Scottish devolution, as outlined in Gordon Brown's timetable with | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
government backing, does it still go ahead if there is not an agreement | :29:03. | :29:08. | |
for English devolution? We are hoping for agreement, we are not | :29:09. | :29:11. | |
planning on failing, and we are hoping for draft legislation before | :29:12. | :29:14. | |
the election so it can be legislated, and be in the | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
manifestoes of the political parties at the general election, so the | :29:20. | :29:22. | |
electorate can also pronounce on whether they access these proposals, | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
then we can put them into statute if they do, early in 2015. In Europe, | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
the unlikely event you don't get agreement, others may think it is | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
highly unlikely you don't, can Scottish devolution go-ahead on its | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
own? Can you meet that thou that was made on the front page of the daily | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
record to the Scottish people come up Will they have to wait until you | :29:45. | :29:50. | |
sort out English devolution? Our aim is to get agreement on this before | :29:51. | :29:53. | |
the general election, and that is what we're doing urgently now in | :29:54. | :29:56. | |
response to the vote last night and the unease that is in inland that if | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
any further parties -- in England if any further powers are given to | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
Scotland, they should be balanced in England. We are not aiming to fail. | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
Can you just explain to our viewers, including your backbench colleagues | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
who may be watching this, what is the logic of giving the Scottish | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
Parliament substantial tax raising powers, which is what you intend to | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
do, and at the same time enshrining and guarantee -- guaranteeing the | :30:25. | :30:37. | |
Barnett formula? The Barnett formula is declining in importance. It still | :30:38. | :30:43. | |
gives per capita spending in Scotland anything from ?1200 to | :30:44. | :30:49. | |
?1500 more. That recognises some of the differences in Scotland, the | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
wider geography and some of the issues in Scotland of dealing with | :30:54. | :31:00. | |
more remote areas. I'm sorry, the Barnett formula does not recognise | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
that. The Barnett formula is purely based on population. It has nothing | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
to do with geography, nothing to do with need, it is purely population. | :31:09. | :31:14. | |
Let me correct you. The reason the formula was introduced in 1978, | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
statistically it's based on population, but it was precisely to | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
introduced give the Scottish office and now the Scottish Government more | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
flexibility to move spending between different spending lines to cope | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
with the fact that Scotland has a much greater landmass, a different | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
geography, remote areas and there are more Scottish choices to be made | :31:37. | :31:44. | |
between different spending lines. Why did Joe Barnett tell me that it | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
had nothing to do with need or geography? Why did he tell me that? | :31:49. | :31:54. | |
Do you do - do you know more about it than the man who invented it? I | :31:55. | :32:00. | |
know the purpose of it. It does reflect the fact that Scotland has | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
different needs and a different geography to England, just as in | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
England we make sure there is more spending that goes to remote areas | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
like Cornwall or the north-west of England or where ever it is. We | :32:12. | :32:29. | |
recognise these things in public spending, but it is declining in its | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
significance because we have delegated more powers anyway to the | :32:33. | :32:34. | |
Scottish Parliament. If it's to do with geography and sparse | :32:35. | :32:36. | |
population, why does Wales do badly out of the Barnett formula and | :32:37. | :32:38. | |
Scotland do well? I don't agree. It does! I don't agree. They do better | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
than England out of the formula and that recognises that peripheral | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
parts of the UK have different geographies and slightly different | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
priorities when it comes to what they want to spend their money on. | :32:53. | :32:55. | |
It also recognises that they should have the ability to switch spending | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
if they don't need it in particular areas and they have a higher | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
priority in others. That was the essence of the Barnett formula. It | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
gave them more flexibility and more abilities to switch. All right, | :33:10. | :33:17. | |
thank you. It's a busy day for you, but at least you don't have to worry | :33:18. | :33:20. | |
about repositioning the nuclear submarines! Let's go to Glasgow. I | :33:21. | :33:28. | |
said we would speak to Kevin McCabe of the Observer. He backed the yes | :33:29. | :33:35. | |
campaign. Why did you lose? Hello, say that again. Why did you lose? I | :33:36. | :33:48. | |
think the stampede over the last ten days of the four horsemen of the | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
British establishment coming north, spreading scare stories... I thought | :33:54. | :34:01. | |
it was the three Stooges! If you include big business, corporate | :34:02. | :34:04. | |
interest, the banks, Westminster, the massed ranks of the endless | :34:05. | :34:12. | |
-based media, they were spending - spreading a compelling story for | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
people in Scotland watching the pennies, people with a new mortgage | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
trying to find a deposit, a couple of children preschool who perhaps | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
had espoused sympathy for nationalism and independents in the | :34:26. | :34:29. | |
last 18 months, but in the secrecy and the quietness of the polling | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
booth began to consider things. I think also the Nationalists were | :34:35. | :34:44. | |
always climbing down escalator, basically. They had started off with | :34:45. | :34:53. | |
a deficit of 25 to 30 points. 22. They had glimpsed Eden over the | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
horizon about ten days ago. There was always going to be a tall order. | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
I think there were still questions about currency and it's all very | :35:02. | :35:08. | |
well for us and the chattering classes and the political classes to | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
talk about currency or dismissed concerns, but working men wondering | :35:14. | :35:16. | |
what their pay packet will look like can be quite a compelling | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
distraction. I always thought we called them the blethering classes | :35:21. | :35:27. | |
in Scotland! I understand all that and I'm sure that played a role in | :35:28. | :35:33. | |
the no vote being larger than most people thought it would be. But | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
didn't we know the impact that that was having and yet right up to the | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
end, most of the leaders of the yes campaign that time it worked pretty | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
convincing to me that they thought they would win. Well, we've | :35:48. | :35:55. | |
basically in new territory. Most of those people would have been | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
veterans of multiparty elections and even some of the posters I spoke to | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
in the last week were nursing some serious misgivings and wondering if | :36:04. | :36:10. | |
they were going to be in 1992 situation again when they called | :36:11. | :36:13. | |
finial Kinnock and he was beaten roundly. - Neil Kinnock. One of the | :36:14. | :36:19. | |
things was the sheer scale of numbers. They had never been in this | :36:20. | :36:25. | |
territory before with an expected 80% plus turnout. They were looking | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
at margins of error. With the best will in the world, no matter how | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
good the strategists were on either side, it was new territory. One | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
thing the Nationalists have always been good at is espousing optimism, | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
always talking about hope. They were much more visible throughout the | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
campaign than the no side. Perhaps there were some people on the | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
national side who were a little more seduced by the visible signs of | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
optimism and confidence and what we were going to do than was perhaps | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
the case. That palpably was the case. Where does the independence | :37:03. | :37:13. | |
movement go from here? It's a very interesting question. Alex Salmond, | :37:14. | :37:19. | |
as you know, has been talking about independence being off the table for | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
a generation. However, that's not what I'm hearing up here. The four | :37:24. | :37:30. | |
council areas where the yes vote held up were amongst the most poor, | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
the ones with the most problems of social deprivation. These are major | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
Labour areas. The Nationalists would not have achieved anything like a | :37:42. | :37:49. | |
45% vote if it hadn't been for the wholesale defection of tens of | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
thousands of Labour voters. Therein lies a massive problem for the | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
Labour Party in Scotland. A year after the Westminster elections, we | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
have the Holyrood elections. Thousands of Labour voters who were | :38:02. | :38:07. | |
made to feel like ghosts and demonised in their own party may | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
choose then to visit some replies all on the Scottish Labour Party. | :38:12. | :38:17. | |
That would probably lead to a second consecutive overall SNP majority. If | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
the parties of the union do not deliver the full extent of their | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
promises of greater devolved powers, many in the SNP, I suspect, will see | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
that as a mandate, along with the fact that 1.6 million people voted | :38:33. | :38:36. | |
for independence last night. They'll see that as a mandate for calling | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
for another referendum and that's a problem that Ed Miliband, David | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
Cameron. Ed Miliband has a problem with what has happened to the Labour | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
Party in Scotland. Is it not a problem for Scotland, too, that it | :38:50. | :38:57. | |
gets locked up in referendums and the constitutional issue takes up | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
all the energy when what is needed is energy for economic growth, jobs, | :39:03. | :39:09. | |
anti-poverty policies, child poverty strategies. Isn't there a danger | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
that constitutional matters overshadow everything else? Yeah, | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
there is a degree of that, Andrew, but you know what else? Fashion all | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
politicians, careerist politicians, which Westminster is full of these | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
days, not to mention a lot of Holyrood, they hate the fact, and | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
they are scared, a lot of these people were scared to their very | :39:33. | :39:37. | |
foundations because of what happened in Scotland in the last 18 months. | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
There was a transferrin is, if you like, of political know-how and | :39:42. | :39:48. | |
politics taken out of the ivory towers, the gilded chambers of | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
Holyrood and Westminster and onto the streets. The last thing they | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
would want is for this to happen again. I've seen a lot of people on | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
both sides energised and politicised and that means tens of thousands | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
more people now have the tools and the information and the ability to | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
obtain that information, to scrutinise the doings of the elected | :40:11. | :40:16. | |
masters to a greater degree than was previously apparent. Thank you for | :40:17. | :40:19. | |
that. It is clear that although you didn't get the result you wanted, | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
Scottish politics will not be the same again, or even Scottish | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
society. Thank you for joining us. What did you make of that? Kevin or | :40:29. | :40:35. | |
your Gilbert and Sullivan interviewed with Michael Fallon? | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
Only the British Conservative Party in its present state could bring you | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
such an Op Urreta as they are now going to. The obvious answer is we | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
will sort out the Scottish question and then we will get together with | :40:48. | :40:53. | |
the other parties and sort out the bigger English question. Maybe David | :40:54. | :40:56. | |
Cameron's backbenchers won't let him do that. They can be fetid. - | :40:57. | :41:05. | |
defeated. What will the Lib Dems do if the coalition? It's quite | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
possible there is no proposition to go with Labour or the Liberal | :41:10. | :41:15. | |
Democrats. Relying upon a whole lot of Cross backbenchers is not his | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
best option. Nevertheless, that seems to be the way he's playing it. | :41:20. | :41:26. | |
I greatly enjoyed going through that with Michael Fallon, but he has to | :41:27. | :41:32. | |
make this thing work. He seemed to suggest the solution would be found | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
in seven months. This is one of this you just constitutional shifts. This | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
is the sort of thing countries spend years on. The problem David Cameron | :41:43. | :41:48. | |
has now got, he's got from now until the election, cross voters in | :41:49. | :41:51. | |
England, Nigel Farage this morning stirring it up, he has to produce | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
something that looks like it can balance out the devolution offered | :41:57. | :41:59. | |
to Scotland within seven months. I don't think you can. He has to do a | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
lot of smoke and mirrors to make it look like he's taking it seriously. | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
It's clear that a no result, although it removes the existential | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
threat to the British state for now, raises a whole lot of other issues | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
as well that have yet to be resolved. We've already talked about | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
the extra powers that will be default to Scotland. It's not | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
exactly clear what they will be. Labour and Conservative don't agree | :42:27. | :42:29. | |
on how much income tax will be devolved. We do know the timetable | :42:30. | :42:37. | |
as outlined by Gordon Brown. What about the detail? | :42:38. | :42:44. | |
Holyrood will already gained some new powers from the Scotland act of | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
2012, which will mean that in 2016 Edinburgh will have the power to | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
vary income tax by 10p and borrow more money. However there is | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
currently disagreement over how much further Westminster should go. The | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
Conservatives want to see Scotland given complete power over income tax | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
and possibly a share of VAT receipts. Labour would vary the | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
amount income tax can be changed from 10p to 15p as well as default | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
thing other areas such as housing benefit. The Liberal Democrats are | :43:20. | :43:30. | |
in favour of a federal United Kingdom and they would give Scotland | :43:31. | :43:32. | |
further control over taxation, including inheritance tax, capital | :43:33. | :43:34. | |
gains tax and income tax. However, as David Cameron indicated this | :43:35. | :43:36. | |
morning, it's not just Scotland that could see a power change. The Prime | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
Minister said he wants to see a fair and balanced settlement with only | :43:42. | :43:44. | |
English MPs being allowed to decide on English laws in Parliament. | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
Conservative MPs were vocal this morning, calling for more English | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
devolution. So was Nigel Farage. Labour's spokespeople were thin on | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
the ground. Eventually we got this from Ed Miliband. We will also meet | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
the desire for change across England, Wales and the whole of the | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
UK. Devolution is not just a good idea for Scotland and Wales, it is a | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
good idea for England and Northern Ireland, as it is already. It's also | :44:14. | :44:20. | |
the case, friends, that we must meet the first change in reforming the of | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
our country and who it works for. Gordon Brown only got a passing | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
mention in that speech. The Deputy Prime Minister was also pressing for | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
a new agreement for England and the rest of the UK. We need to address | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
this huge missing bit of the jigsaw, which is England. For far too long, | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
far too many decisions have been taken on by half of the towns, | :44:45. | :44:50. | |
villages, cities and counties of England by Westminster and Whitehall | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
and we need to release that grip of Westminster and Whitehall which has | :44:56. | :44:58. | |
stifled governments across England for too long. I see today is the | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
beginning of the process, not the end, where we reaffirm what unites | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
us. Nigel Farage has also been getting stuck into the debate this | :45:10. | :45:12. | |
morning, there's a surprise, demanding a better deal for | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
England. I'm sorry, quite honestly, the English taxpayer has been very | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
patient, very quiet through this. We spent as a nation ?1600 a head more | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
on every Scot than we do on every English person. The Barnett formula | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
is should be debated openly in the House of Commons. Let's get the | :45:32. | :45:33. | |
country involved. OK, let's talk to James Landale in | :45:34. | :45:44. | |
Downing Street. When was it decided that English devolution would now go | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
in tandem with Scottish devolution? I think it has been in the minds of | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
David Cameron and his advisers ever since they realise they have two say | :45:54. | :45:56. | |
something to try and shift the debate within the referendum. It is, | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
I have to say, Conservative policy, it was in the last manifesto so it | :46:01. | :46:06. | |
is nothing new for them. But I think this strategic decision to link | :46:07. | :46:09. | |
Scottish devolution with English devolution was the new idea, simply | :46:10. | :46:12. | |
because, on the one hand, it makes it more likely that it will happen | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
but also politically it makes it hugely difficult for the Labour | :46:17. | :46:19. | |
Party, and I think that would have been very attractive, not just to | :46:20. | :46:22. | |
David Cameron but also to George Osborne, who I believe has had his | :46:23. | :46:25. | |
hands all over the statement this morning. Crucially, because it now | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
puts the onus on the Labour Party to agree some kind of extra power for | :46:30. | :46:40. | |
English MPs, that means less power for Scottish MPs, and that means a | :46:41. | :46:42. | |
future Labour government would find it harder to get its legislation | :46:43. | :46:45. | |
through. So, a huge challenge for Ed Miliband in the months ahead, as all | :46:46. | :46:47. | |
the parties come together and they try to agree some kind of procedure, | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
some kind of rule that they can all agree with and have some draft | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
legislation by January, which is a very fast timetable that the Prime | :46:56. | :47:01. | |
Minister has said. Does Mr Cameron's concept of English | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
devolution involve any more than English votes for English laws? | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
Well, today he was very specific, he said... He also said the same would | :47:11. | :47:19. | |
be true in Northern Ireland and Wales. The key question is, what | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
exactly would they be voting on? There is a difference between an | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
indicative vote that allows English MPs to express their opinion, then | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
there is colourful example, English MPs voting on the detailed of the | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
legislation, maybe by setting up a special grand committee, and then | :47:37. | :47:39. | |
there is the other end of the spectrum, essentially them voting on | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
all English legislation entirely, effectively setting up an English | :47:45. | :47:47. | |
parliament. I don't think they will go down that route. They will have | :47:48. | :47:50. | |
to find a middle way some way that is enough to satisfy his Tory | :47:51. | :47:54. | |
critics but enough that is sellable to the Labour Party, ultimately. I | :47:55. | :48:00. | |
am joined now in the studio by Labour MP, Diane Abbott, she follows | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
me everywhere. And by the Conservative back venture, Bernard | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
Jenkin, in Westminster. Bernard, did the Prime Minister jumped the gun | :48:10. | :48:17. | |
and trash the British constitution on the basis of a rogue poll? I | :48:18. | :48:24. | |
don't think it's important. I don't know whether making these extra | :48:25. | :48:27. | |
promises at the last minute had any effect on the pole. It was not as | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
good a win as we wanted, and as a result of this whole exercise we do | :48:33. | :48:35. | |
have the whole British constitution in something of a state of flux. The | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
question is where we go from here. Would answering the West Lothian | :48:41. | :48:43. | |
question in the way the Prime Minister has indicated, a newish | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
votes for English laws, would that be enough for you on English | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
devolution? I don't think it will be enough for English MPs. The | :48:53. | :48:55. | |
principle should be, if we want the United Kingdom to survive, we have | :48:56. | :48:59. | |
to have the four components of the union treated the same. So what is | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
good for Scottish MPs in Holyrood has to be good for English MPs at | :49:04. | :49:09. | |
Westminster. We should be able to decide our only just lesion in | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
Westminster. The Mackay commission, which was set up to look at this, | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
was a bit watery on the subject, and that's not good enough. What we want | :49:19. | :49:21. | |
is to be able to control our own legislation in the same way as the | :49:22. | :49:25. | |
Scots controlled the legislation, the Welsh, and Northern Ireland. | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
What this envisages is a proper federal system, and the money has | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
got to be decided on an equal and fair basis, as well. Just before I | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
bring in Diane Abbott, can I just checked on a proper federal system? | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
With that mean we have a Prime Minister for the United Kingdom and | :49:47. | :49:52. | |
a First Minister for England? Yes. I see, quite radical change. You said | :49:53. | :49:58. | |
to me last night on the results programme, Scotland Decides, that | :49:59. | :50:01. | |
you thought the time would come for English votes for English laws, but | :50:02. | :50:07. | |
that would be right. My view, and it is a personal view, is it is not | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
intellectually coherent if the further devolution to Holyrood is | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
going to mean anything to continue to have Scottish MPs voting on | :50:17. | :50:23. | |
reserved matters. It is not your party bus like policy though, is it? | :50:24. | :50:28. | |
I am not sure what my party's policy is. We are very reluctant to see | :50:29. | :50:34. | |
Scottish MPs not allowed to vote, but the danger is if we don't arrive | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
with a deal with the Tories on this devolution settlement promised by | :50:40. | :50:42. | |
Gordon Brown before the general election, the real people who will | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
suffer will be the Labour Party in Scotland, because the SNP will be | :50:47. | :50:49. | |
running around saying look, we told you it was all meaningless. Bernard | :50:50. | :50:53. | |
Jenkin, if we had a First Minister Finland, as we have the Scotland and | :50:54. | :50:58. | |
Wales and Northern Ireland, would it have its own parliament and where | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
would it be? No, I think the two days a week you have a Jewish MPs | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
sitting as the English Parliament in the Palace of Westminster. Deciding | :51:08. | :51:14. | |
-- you have English MPs sitting as being this Parliament. Supposing we | :51:15. | :51:20. | |
devolve taxation powers to Scotland, are we seriously one day | :51:21. | :51:23. | |
to have another Labour Chancellor, who might be Scottish, in his or her | :51:24. | :51:27. | |
budget, setting out what the tax rates should be for people in | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
England, but not able to set his or her own tax rate in Scotland? This | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
is the West Lothian question getting more and more significant as more | :51:37. | :51:39. | |
and more powers are devolved. This is a very Tory tradition, that we | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
finish off other people's reforms that we opposed to start with. We | :51:44. | :51:49. | |
opposed the reform act in 1832, we finished it with 1867, all male | :51:50. | :51:53. | |
suffrage, and then suffrage for women later on. We opposed | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
devolution. Well, we have devolution in Scotland and Wales and Northern | :51:59. | :52:01. | |
Ireland now, we have to finish the job and have proper devolution in | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
England as well full stop now you are stealing the Liberal | :52:07. | :52:10. | |
Democrats's policy, which has always been in favour of this. I think the | :52:11. | :52:13. | |
liberal democrats should come along with us on this. Is there any sign, | :52:14. | :52:21. | |
Diane Abbott, that the Labour Party is thinking of a credible, serious, | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
radical devolution policy for England? To be quite honest, the | :52:26. | :52:29. | |
proposals we are talking about today were drawn up by Gordon Brown in the | :52:30. | :52:36. | |
heat of what appeared to be a losing referendum battle. It's called | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
panic. You can call it that, I couldn't possibly comment, but if | :52:41. | :52:47. | |
the Labour Party is seen to not deliver on what Gordon Brown | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
promised, we will pay a price. Bernard Jenkin, can I come back to | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
you in the final minute? Your proposal for a federation is | :52:57. | :52:59. | |
interesting but I propose to you that cannot be achieved in the | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
short-term, that is a massive redrawing of the British | :53:04. | :53:06. | |
constitution and would take years? Actually, we can organise the | :53:07. | :53:10. | |
English vote for English laws without any UK override through our | :53:11. | :53:13. | |
own standing orders and procedures. That could be done in a week. That | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
does not create a federation. The question as to whether we should | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
having this department and English ministers, that can evolve over | :53:23. | :53:25. | |
time, let's not do that a rush and let's think about that. But the | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
point is English votes for English laws has consequences for Whitehall. | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
How could you have English MPs determining English laws but not | :53:34. | :53:36. | |
able to hold accountable direct to them the ministers who are | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
implementing those policies? It is a nonsense. Final word, briefly, | :53:41. | :53:46. | |
Diane. Mo I respect Bernard Jenkin, but this is madness. Labour MPs are | :53:47. | :53:50. | |
trying to unite behind Ed Miliband, particularly when we find out what | :53:51. | :53:55. | |
our precise policies are. I am trying to save the union, because if | :53:56. | :53:58. | |
we don't have the competence of settlement across the United | :53:59. | :54:03. | |
Kingdom, Alex Salmond will be back having another row with Westminster | :54:04. | :54:05. | |
and he will have another referendum, we have one last chance to save the | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
union. I thought that just happened yesterday, but never mind, Bernard | :54:11. | :54:12. | |
Jenkin, thank you for joining us, and Diane Abbott as well. It was a | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
momentous night, not just in Scotland but for the whole of the | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
Kingdom. Here is a reminder of how the events of the last 24 hours | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
unfolded. It is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to take Scotland's | :54:27. | :54:27. | |
future into Scotland's hands. The BBC's forecast now is that | :54:28. | :55:33. | |
Scotland has voted no to independence. CHEERING | :55:34. | :55:47. | |
No, 194,638. Scotland has, by majority, decided | :55:48. | :55:59. | |
not, at this stage, to become an independent country. I accept that | :56:00. | :56:02. | |
verdict of the people. DRAMATIC MUSIC people who are | :56:03. | :56:23. | |
disengaged from politics have turned out in large numbers. | :56:24. | :56:35. | |
Just as the people of Scotland will have more power over their affairs, | :56:36. | :56:42. | |
so it follows that the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland | :56:43. | :56:43. | |
must have a bigger say over theirs. I will finish the Daily Politics | :56:44. | :57:03. | |
with Peter Hennessy. What an extraordinary 24 hours, we have | :57:04. | :57:06. | |
never lived through 24 hours like this. Yesterday at this time, we | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
were worried that the United Kingdom might be dissolved by this time on | :57:11. | :57:14. | |
Friday. It hasn't. We wake up, we find ourselves in this vast | :57:15. | :57:17. | |
constitutional building site without a plan, without even the sketchiest | :57:18. | :57:22. | |
blueprint, and what we really need is to pause and to think, and to | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
work out how to design something that fits all these multiplicity of | :57:27. | :57:30. | |
needs. It has to be a royal commission or a convention of some | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
kind. That doesn't meet the Gordon Brown timetable though, does it? | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
There is a kind of mania abroad, for a country that is supposed to be | :57:40. | :57:42. | |
phlegmatic and the mature is democracy in the world, we have gone | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
slightly bonkers. I know there are many flaws in our system, of course | :57:47. | :57:51. | |
you are a member of it, the House of Lords would be one that comes to | :57:52. | :57:57. | |
mind... You are too kind! I know that, but politicians, right, left | :57:58. | :58:00. | |
and centre, are they not being rather cavalier with something that | :58:01. | :58:04. | |
has evolved over the years and wake up with a good idea and want to rip | :58:05. | :58:08. | |
it apart? They are distilling their own frenzy, each one is feeding off | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
the other, it is time for a bit of calmness, reason and a bit of | :58:14. | :58:18. | |
careful R and D, both intellectual and political. I suppose what Gordon | :58:19. | :58:22. | |
Brown was talking about is not as easy to come by as he was implying, | :58:23. | :58:25. | |
but in the end that might be what needs to happen. You need eight | :58:26. | :58:31. | |
consensus for long-lasting constitutional change, otherwise it | :58:32. | :58:37. | |
won't insure. We have a genius, we Brits, for smart muddling through. | :58:38. | :58:40. | |
This is muddling through without the Smart. When I interviewed you for my | :58:41. | :58:47. | |
documentary, you were worried about the union now, but that fear in your | :58:48. | :58:50. | |
mind has gone away for now. Just now. I do worry if we squeak out of | :58:51. | :58:56. | |
the European Union in the next ten years, it will reopen the Scottish | :58:57. | :58:59. | |
question, because they will vote to stay in the EU. In ten years time, I | :59:00. | :59:04. | |
am not a pessimist, we could be out of the EU and without Scotland. We | :59:05. | :59:07. | |
have to be very careful how we tread. Peter Hennessy, thank you | :59:08. | :59:10. | |
very much, a pleasure to be with you. | :59:11. | :59:15. | |
Thanks to David Aaronovitch, Anne McElvoy, | :59:16. | :59:18. | |
I'll be back on BBC One this Sunday morning at 11.00am , | :59:19. | :59:23. | |
when the Sunday Politics will be live from the Labour party | :59:24. | :59:26. |