18/09/2014 Daily Politics

THEME MUSIC .

On the day the people of Scotland head to the polls to determine

They're expected to vote in record numbers.

Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling led the way this morning to

the polling booths, where they face one simple question.

Should Scotland be an independent country?

The US House of Representatives has approved

President Obama's plan to arm and train moderate Syrian rebels.

But is the international community doing enough to drive back IS?

Is the House of Lords getting too big for it's boots?

It's certainly not getting any smaller and there are calls

And I'm a politician, get me out of here.

We'll be asking what it must be like governing from the Aussie outback.

All that in the next hour and with us for the duration former

Foreign Office Minister, and former Deputy Secretary General of the

First to Scotland, where 97% of those elligible to vote

That's 4.3 million registered voters.

The turnout is expected to be much higher than a general election.

We don't talk issues on voting day but let's cross to the BBC's

Assistant Political Editor, Norman Smith in Glasgow to talk logistics.

Norman, have we seen early signs yet of this predicted big turnout? I

think we have actually, Andrew, certainly if you think of most

general elections, early doors in the morning they are usually one man

and a dog at the polling station. The polling stations here have had

queues outside them really, not all of them, but quite a lot have had

queueing outside them from early in the morning which would suggest yes,

this indeed will be a huge turnout. The weather is you know, dry and

mild, although frankly searches the intensity of the debate even if it

was snowing and hailstorms people would still go to the polls! If you

look at the postal vote, something like 80% of those has been

returned. In Edinburgh, the City Council are saying 89% of postal

votes have been returned. We are on course I think for the biggest

turnout possibly we have seen in any election in the UK or Scotland. What

we are seeing today, frankly, is an extraordinarily, the huge effort by

both sides to try to make sure they get the vote out. Such is the

closeness of the polls, this may well hinge on which side is better

able to get out of the vote. The no say they have volunteers in every

single council ward, the yes campaign say they have 20,000

volunteers knocking on doors and helping people to the polling

stations. There is an old quote which goes along the lines of, in

politics, ideas is important but organisation is even more

important. Translated into the modern context this means, is that

you got to get your vote out. At the end of the day that could actually

be the deciding factor despite the months of the arguments. The polling

stations will close at ten o'clock, if they are still queueing, have

they made any provision for that? If you turn of the last minute and you

are in the queue, you are OK, you will still get to vote, it is not

like the shutter comes down at ten o'clock and you miss your

once-in-a-lifetime chance. You'll still get the vote. In terms of the

results, they will start coming in from about two o'clock. The real

benchmark moment, I think though, will not come until very late into

the early morning, probably between 5-6 AM. We are expecting the results

shortly after 6am, that is what accounting officer said. Five

o'clock seems to me, if you are wanting to know when you should get

up, I would get up at 5am. At five, we will get Edinburgh and Glasgow,

together they make up about 20% of the vote. Glasgow may well be the

critical factor. Whether the Labour vote in Glasgow holds up already

goes to the Nationalists. We should get a result somewhere between 6-7.

All sorts of wrinkles, there could be recounts and problems getting the

votes out from the islands, it could be later. We want people to join us

at 10:40pm, on BBC1 tonight, stick with us for the direction. LAUGHTER

-- for the duration. Results will be declared in the 32 local districts

in Scotland, a bit like a general election in that sense. Explain this

to me: There can be a recount in each of the districts but there

cannot be a recount on the total, is that right? If we have a result

which says one side gets, I don't know, 49.5% of the vote and the

other side gets 50.5%, and everybody says that's very close, let's

recount. It's too late. One we get to the final numbers it is too late.

You can only recount at the local level, only at the local level can

you have the recount. You cannot do it on a national level, they would

be done at the local authority level, it does not matter how close

it is, even if it is decided by one vote that is the outcome. One vote

could determine the future of Scotland and the United Kingdom. It

will determine the future of the United Kingdom because there will be

massive constitutional change, whatever happens. We will have to

unpick pensions and welfare and defence, oil, debt, massive

upheaval. With the No vote, there will be massive constitutional

change too, it is hard to see how the English, Welsh and Northern

Irish will say that's fine, you have more powers and we will sit and do

nothing. Thank you for joining us try and grab some sleep before this

evening. CHUCKLES I don't think there will be much

sleep. No. CHUCKLES The former Labour Minister Alan

Johnson has suggested Ed Miliband should have spent time doing

something else before entering politics, so the question

for today is: At the end of the show Mark

will give us the correct answer. Overnight the US House of

Representatives approved President Obama's plan to train and arm the

moderate Syrian opposition taking It comes a week after the President

outlined his new, broader strategy to combat the

militant group which is operating Here the Foreign Secretary,

Philip Hammond, has said the UK will play a "leading role" in the

international effort to combat IS. What that role will be, is not yet

clear. So far the US has carried out

174 airstrikes across Iraq. The action has helped halt

the advance of IS militants: in August Iraqi army and

Kurdish Peshmerga forces, assisted by American airstrikes,

recaptured the Mosul dam The UK has

so far sent ?1.6 million worth of weapons and ammunition to

the Kurdish Peshmerga forces who However, one British hostage,

David Haines, has already been Another, Alan Henning,

has also been threatened. Australia has also said it will send

600 military personnel, including special forces troops,

and eight fighter jets. Overnight President Obama won

congressional approval for a 500 million dollar plan to arm

the moderate Syrian opposition. But the president reiterated that he

would not be committing US boots A little earlier I spoke to the

Conservative MP Adam Holloway via Skype, so apologies for the quality

of the line. He is on a fact-finding mission in northern Iraq. I asked

him if he had seen the effects of So what the air strikes have done is

they've made it impossible now for IS to form up together and hammer

down the road to attack cities. Because it is too dangerous for them

to congregate. They have been very important. Even so, 45 ministers not

sound very far away, you must have spoken to residents of Irbil, how

imminent do they think the threat still is? With my colleagues I went

down to the front line a couple of days ago. It is very quiet down

there. You can imagine. The Peshmerga, the local Kurdish

forces, they are equipped for fighting in mountains, they are not

equipped for fighting on the flat ground which is the front line. So

they don't have the long-range weapons yet. So those air strikes

are very, very important. As one Peshmerga commander put it to me, he

said, we woke up one morning to find that we had a 1000 kilometre front

line with the most dangerous organisation in the world, they need

help. Do they need more weapons and ammunition than is being sent to

them currently? There is a lot coming in. Overnight at the airport

planes were arriving. Certainly on the front of line where we were at,

the commander told us he had not got any additional weapons. But look,

that is about defending the Kurdish areas. But this is not a military

problem. This is a political problem... You know, we imagine that

the answer to a problem like this, is just to bomb everyone, it's not.

ISIS have not appeared and taken over this chunk of Iraq by accident,

they have taken over by the -- because the Sunni groups were fed up

with the Shia government in Baghdad. When people came to Mosul,

a lot of the locals felt it was better living with ISIS than it was

living with the Shias, the only difference is that ISIS would not

let them smoke. What response should the UK Government to take on is it

time to sign up for air strikes with the Americans in Iraq and Syria?

Absolutely not, this is not a military problem, this is a

political problem. Australia is now deploying military capabilities. We

will be joined by a representative of the Australian government in a

moment. Mark Malloch Brown. Mr Obama talking

about arming the "moderate" Syrian Rebels, Hillary Clinton wanted him

to do that in 2012 when it was clear who the moderates were. He didn't do

it. Isn't he two years too late? It is playing catch-up but it doesn't

mean it's not worth doing, and there's a real need to build a

moderate middle. But not much to play with here, I mean, too little

too late probably. A lot of people will feel because the moderates have

been on the defensive, they are the secular Rebels rather than the

moderates, they've been on the defensive the two years. They've

taken a lot of defeat at the hands of the Islamists. You give them

these weapons and once again they could easily end up in the hands of

the Islamists. That's the real risk and you will find from the officials

briefing Congress, these weapons will be put in carefully and slowly

to make sure that they are going into reliable hands. But when we see

that ISIS's fighting power comes from weapons that they captured from

the Iraqis, American weapons, this is a real risk. But for the

president, the alternative that somebody raised, that he made a deal

with President Assad to combine to take on ISIS, was a much less

palatable option. It would be even more end raging to Sunni opinion in

the region and it would have been a U-turn which would have been an

acceptable for Western opinion. -- an acceptable.

, we become the -- isn't there the danger that we now become the air

force for the Peshmerga forces and any other forces on the ground? Yes,

this is what we may end up doing. Is this wise? I think it is

inevitable, Andrew, because nobody else is coming forward to do this.

The Arab world has affected their forces... Why don't they use them?

-- effective air forces. I would agree, it is time you say, the Arab

world, don't you care what is happening in your region? These

people are a greater threat to the national security of the Arab world

than they are to the United Kingdom and the United States. Yet they seem

to be implying, let us do it again, that's exactly playing into the

hands of ISIS, that is what they want us to do. We then take the lead

in the air and on the ground and ISIS will present that as the evil

West against the Muslim world which is their intention.

Qatar has some undercover involvement with ISIS, the United

Arab Emirates is different and I am sure we will see some kind of

support. In that sense, to give President Obama and John Kerry their

due, they are trying to do this the way the first Gulf War was done and

not the second Iraq conflict. They are trying to build a coalition of

the willing, the secretary has been to the Middle East and has talked to

these governments, tried to get some kind of commitment from them. I

think the Americans understand the issue as much as we do. But if you

are the UAE, or Qatar, you don't really want to get involved, there

is no terrorism in these countries. They stay out of things, they are

prospering. Two of the richest city states, Joe Hart and Dubai, and Abu

Dhabi, -- These are very small states which

already feel quite beleaguered in their neighbourhood with Iran just

across the strait from them. And, frankly, they cannot survive growing

turbulence in the region. They can't be kind of isolated islands from

this. So, you are right, they hate to do something which would import

terrorism into their states, but equally, theyp can't allow the world

and themselves to stand idly by as ISIS consolidates itself. I would

suggest to you, that it is unconceivable that the UAE or Saudis

or Qatar would deploy ground troops against Isil It is unlikely but

shouldn't be inconceivable because frankly, they need to start thinking

about how they are going to stop this huge problem that is going to

contaminate the Middle East. It cannot just be us. The public, you

know, our public here, have no appetite for us putting ground

troops in. Neither has the Government. But, in the end, perhaps

we should never, ever say - we will never, ever do anything. When I

useded to negotiate, as Mark used, to we would never, ever give away a

card that we hold in our hand easily. I will never say that we

would never put ground troops in on the ground because actually, we

might have to, if we were directly threatened, Andrew. This is he a us,

but as a military man, would you like to give us your assessment of

the fighting capabilities of the UAE, Saudi and Qatar forces? Not

particularly, but you are going to press me so the answer is, not

great. So we cannot put too much faith in them. No. We are down to

arming the permother capital gains tax which does know how to fight,

particularly if they have modern weapons -- the Peshmerga.

And to hoping that the Americans can do something to revive and put some

steel into the Iraqi Army. Exactly and that's what we are hoping to do

and this is' what American and British intentions will be. I think

it is important, Adam Holloway's point in the interview, in which he

said the ultimate solution is a political solution. We have to look

at the military as containing the problem, recovering the major cities

back into Government hands but then it is - how do you reenfranchise the

sunnies? How do you remove their sense of grievance which lets them

breed movements like ISIS. But essentially ly a sunny-Shia civil

war. -- a Sunni-Shia civil war? I think it is generational. It took 30

years in Europe. This is producing religious-based fanatic terrorist

organisations because their religious majority, their fellow

co-religionists, feel they are excluded from the politics of the

countries where they aring living. So that, is only something, that

this region can do, by creating much more inclusive, much more

accountable, much more democratic government structures than this

strange mixture of authoritarianism and religious exclusionism that we

have at the moment. But we are seeing the rewriting of the Middle

East map. The Middle East map was rewritten during the First World War

and it was implemented. It has broadly stayed like that. These are

the boundaries since then. It's now been redrawn again. It is going to

be redrawn by forces on the ground. Undoubted youly Undoubted ly, that's

why I say we are in this for a generation. That's again, why these

air strikes need to be put into context. They need to be short and

decisive. You do not want a generation-long commitment of

Western Forces resolving something that only Arabs can solve for

themselves. Are we going, "we", Britain, going to join the Americans

and probably now the Australians in air strikes? Probably. We may have

no choice. We don't want to, but we may have no choice.

Is there enough spoer from MPs? Doer support. I think it is quite a lot

of support from MPs. From both sides of the House. I'm talking about

friends in the Labour Party and on the backbenches. But the problem is,

we don't want to go further. What did you make of the remarks of the

former Attorney-General, Dominic Grieve, now a backbench colleague of

yours on the Conservative side, who hold Jo yesterday that any mission

had to be limited to protecting civilians, not removing IS? That's

his view. We might have to have a different view to that, but that's

Dominic's view. I deeply respect that. He is a good bloke. But you

don't share it, do you? I don't. My view is that if we are about to see

a major advance, we may well have to take them on from the air.

His implication was it wouldn't be legal to do that, it would have to

be framed with a humanitarian view with limited air strikes to protect

the civil ian population -- civilian population, contain, not defeat.

Well if you can do, that great. But in the end when you have these

people burying hundreds of people, in the hand. That's humanitarian

with me When they are attacking ISIS in in Iraqi territory, all we need

is the invitation of the government. Syria he was talking bflt You have

more of a point there in Syrian. The Syrian Government has tow invite you

-- Syrian Government who has to invite you in or you have to go to

the UN. And we don't talk to them. Today, over 100 British Muslim

imams, organisations and individuals have signed a statement calling for

the release of the British hostage They also express their "horror and

revulsion" at the killing of another hostage, David Haines, and call

the group "un-Islamic fanatics". One of those who signed up to the

letter, Muddassar Ahmed, he joins us Why, at this particular time, as Mr

Henning was taken captive in December last year? It wasn't made

public. People weren't aware of the issue. I thought the family were

keeping it - wanted a slightly lower profile on the issue but I thought

it's an important step that this letter was eventually written and

pulled together. I think it represents a very wide range of

British Muslim opinion Do you accept that wide range, though it may be,

that it is not the kind of opinion that there is folks -- the folks at

IS will have any interest in listening to? I don't know. I think

one thing that's very important is that IS are spoking to in a

terminology and a language they understand. I think what is

interesting here is that the British Muslims that went with Alan to Syria

and travelled with him, are the ones that are leading the calls for him

to be released. I think it is interesting - of course it is not

crystal clear how they will respond - but I don't suppose we will be

able to ignore it easily. Should such robust statements not have come

before so many young British Muslims went to join IS? I think that the -

I think there have been statements before. I think a lot of work has

been done by the Muslim community in Britain to ensure that young British

Muslims don't go out there. It hasn't worked, has it? It is

interesting. It has and it hasn't. It is interesting to see - we have

been hearing reports that there are young British Muslims out there that

want to come back, that realise they have made a mistake. Remember there

was a huge effort by young British Muslims to go out and help the

humanitarian aid in Syria and the fog of war, some young men made the

decision to join IS. It is interesting and for me heartening to

hear that some want to come back. We need to be prepared and open,

because there is nothing more powerful than having a young British

Muslim who is been out there, who is disenchanted and realised that ISIS

has nothing to do with Islam and Muslims, to come back and tell the

rest of us. If they are genuine. Well, that's something we need to

figure out in due course. But, I think it may well be, but we need to

be open to that responsibility. -- possibility. Do we have much

evidence? Because it is almost taken, almost as an assumption, that

the worst of the ones who are out there, have been radicalised by

mosques or imams in Britain. Some of the backgrounds of the ones I have

seen, would suggest that they are no better, really than gangsters, that

they have not really had anything to do with the mosques or religion in

Britain and they are simply now being offered a bigger, more grisly

playing field for their gangsterism? I think that's riechlted you have

think the the nail on the head. These young men going out there seem

to be less motivated by Islam and more motivated by other reasons and

perhaps some is linked to lower social economic backgrounds they are

from and they are being attracted or disenp chanted by their and the to

live here, so they are being attracted to go out there and fight

in this certain way. I think that, you know, it is important that we

find ways - that part of the solution here is finding long-term

ways to bring these people and make them feel more part of British

society as a whole. In the short term, we knead to be open to the

fact that some have simply made a mistake and we need to be able to

let them integrate normally back into society when they come back.

What do you think now could be done? What is the single biggest thing we

can do, now, to stop more young British Muslims going to join the

terrorists? I think there is a couple of things. First of all, the

letter that happened today is a great example of something positive,

that shows that the vast majority of British Muslims are sick and tired

of ISIS and are horrified, as everybody else is, by the crimes

that they have committed and are about to commit. So, understanding

those voices, encourages those voices to speak out more is one

step. I think the other thing that might be helpful in this, is that

not speaking to ISIS, in terms of the way they want us to address them

- so, there is nothing Islamic about them, they are not a state. They

don't have the backing of Islamic scholars in the region. In fact,

what they have done, is they have destroyed centuries' old Islamic

civilisation in Iraq. Everything about them is anti-Islamic. We need

to frame it in that sense. Thank you for joining us and explaining the

reasons hyped your statement today. As promised, we are joined by the

Australian High Commissioner. He has fought his way through the London

traffic. Welcome. Overnight in Australia we have been hearing about

anti-terror raids, extensive anti-terror raids in Sydney and

Brisbane. Can you bring us up-to-speed? Well, about 600 police

mounted some raids in a variety of suburbs, mainly in Sydney but also

Brisbane and detained around 15 people and arrested - and had one

person charged. This is tied up with concerns that the police have had

that there could be a terrorist operation, or a criminal operation

in Australia which could include beheading. And there had been some

links. Attempts to behead in Australia? In Australia, yes. So,

potentially a random attack - as no not identifying a specific person,

but randomly choosing somebody or several people and killing them, and

possibly killing them by beheading them. Do we think this is linked to

the events in Iraq/Syria, where we know with some British Muslims there

are some American Muslims in there, too. We think we have about 60

fighters as part of Isil in Syria and Iraq. And we think there are

links with Isil, yes. Now Prime Minister Abbott has committed 600

Australian troops, eight fighter jets to help combat ISIS in the

region. Exactly what would their role be, can you tell us? It remains

to be seen, because at this stage, the Americans haven't made anip

final decisions on what they are going to do -- made any decisions on

what they are going to do. We are not looking on boots on the ground

to use the phrase. What would the troops be, if not boots on the

ground? Some people would be there to provide support to the Air Force.

To the Australian Air Force? Yes, to people like that. But Mr Abbott has

said they may be called on "to disrupt and degrade." This is going

to depend on how the Americans ultimately define the mission and we

will have to be satisfied with the way they ha defined the mission. We

went to get -- they have defined the mission. We want to get the assets

ready in case there is a call for action on us. And we are making the

call to America and other allies that we are prepared to shoulder the

burden ourselves not leaving everything to the British and

Americans. Is Australia a reliable ally? To America? We are reliable.

You are close and getting closer. You have bought striker jets from

America. I don't think we are buying as many as the UK, but if that's the

definition of a close ally, is it? # Britain and Australia are both very

close and reliable allies of the United States. The reason for that

is that we have a common view, and common values and often common

perspectives about what needs to be done. So we are different countries,

we are Sovereign in our own rights but often come to the same

conclusions. To be fair, all three of our countries know that Isil

should not, over time, be allowed to control substantial slice of

territory in the Middle East. That the Iraqi security forces, the

Peshmerga have to be supported in rolling back Isil.

Britain is going to follow in its footsteps? This is a great move and

a necessary move from Australia, you have to put Australia's own

interests, and Alexander would agree. Australia lives in a

difficult region with a resurgent China, it is important for Australia

that the US engages in the Pacific region and offers security, an

alternative to China. The Americans have a new naval base just outside

Darwin. We are not allowed to call it a naval base. If it looks like

one it probably is. They are going to rotate troops. Marines. Last time

I looked they were in the U.S. Navy. They are not being based there.

There could be another one in Western Australia as well, the

Americans are looking at... We haven't been looking at so much new

American bases, but the Americans being able to deploy through

Australia. Does Australian public opinion back what the Prime Minister

has announced? I think it does, the Liberal party, Tony Abbott's party,

and the Labour Party, the main opposition, support what the

government is doing. The Green party does not but other than that, I

think the mainstream public opinion supports it. We don't often get the

High Commissioner on our programme, we don't want you to go. It is

Joe's turnout. Now since we have the Australian

High Commissioner here we thought we'd ask him why the Australian

Prime Minister's gone walkabout. Tony Abbott this week decided to run

his government from the outback. CHEERING

In a remote pocket of the Northern Territory, at the mythological

birthplace of the didgeridoo Tony Abbott sets to work. He's the seat

of power to an half thousand miles from Parliament house Canberra to a

Portakabin. -- two and a half thousand miles. Life under canvas is

not cramping his leadership style. From his outback office he has

deployed 600 Australian troops to the conflict in Iraq. The Prime

Minister is making good on a promise to spend one week every year in a

disadvantaged indigenous community. Living alongside these people he's

taking part in schemes to tackle high rates of infant mortality, drug

abuse, alcoholism and unemployment. Critics doubt that this makes little

difference to his attitudes, but the Prime Minister can chalk up one win,

school attendance was at a record high when he went to class.

And the High Commissioner is still here, and we're joined also

by the comedian, Mark Little, some viewers may remember him

Welcome to the Daily Politics. That is what I remember, that is what I

spent my university youth doing. It explains your degree. It was a

social phenomenon. My degree in media studies.

To the importance of this trip, why? Indigenous Australians are an

important component of our country, it makes sense that Tony Abbott, as

he did as opposition leader and health Minister, and as Prime

Minister to meet with these communities and understand these

communities, albeit a brief period of time, spending time with these

communities and it is much appreciated. Appreciated by the

community but it is unusual. In the modern Eire prime ministers have to

get out among the diversity of their communities -- in odd and

indigenous people at the first people. They've not had the respect

they deserved over the last couple of centuries. Tony Abbott wants to

have recognition of the indigenous people written into the

constitution. It is going to be hard to get an agreement on the words but

we have to get bipartisan agreement on it. Your impressions, the theory

is, the Prime Minister is in the outback and it is a change of scene.

You can almost see his PR team behind this, he has been one to put

in his foot in it a lot over the past, he's clever at doing that,

Tony Abbott. Recently he made a statement about the defining moment

in Australian history which was the British coming and taking over and

bringing civilisation to Australia. It was defining, whether it is

positive or negative. How is that putting your foot in it? How did he

put his foot in it? He said it was not settled, he said it was settled

a little bit, because what is coming up in the referendum, the

constitutional referendum, the indigenous people want more land

rights, and treaty. Something you would back? I would totally back and

it is hard-core in indigenous politics. What the wording will be

in this, is trying to make it not, to not give the aboriginal treaty so

they don't have any access, SA over their land. We will come back to the

land rights because that's been a long-standing issue. Your point, it

is a PR stunt. Do you admire him for doing it, it is not easy to do,

physically, he is quite a he-man. It is like that it Putin, wrestling a

bear, he's just going camping, as far as the Aussies are concerned,

he's going camping! Have you done it? You have more nasty animals out

there than the rest of the world put together. He has waved goodbye to

soldiers that he has sent to the war in Iraq. It shows you politics is

getting tougher and tougher no matter what you do. People say it is

stunned, if you do the right thing, it is just a stunt you make a gaffe.

To be honest with you, anybody who knows Tony Abbott, I'm not talking

about observers and commentators, I know him very well. Anybody who

knows him knows throughout his political career and prior to that

he's been very committed to indigenous issues. He means it, when

he goes out there to do this, that it's not to take your point... By

the way personally I do not think it'll have any effect on the voters.

But I do think it demonstrates... He has to minute, if he is going to

keep on selling off Australia to the Chinese, he is going to have access

to this important treaty. The aboriginal population appreciated,

for them at least it's quite a thing to have the Prime Minister stay

there for one week. It is, he's taken away the aboriginal

commission, he has set himself up as the indigenous Prime Minister, he

will look after it himself personally. Also women, use in

charge of that as well. I don't know, there's something not quite

right upstairs as far as I'm concerned. The Prime Minister of a

country, he flip-flops around. Saying things like, he's not quite

right upstairs, people can draw their own conclusion. How would you

take that comment? I would leave that to the viewers. I would make

this point, here is a man who was a Rhodes scholar, a deeply intelligent

and thoughtful person. Who amongst other things wants to do something

about indigenous disadvantage. By the way, it is a bit patronising to

think that all indigenous people have one view, there are whole

variety of political views among indigenous people and on this issue

of the recognition in the constitution there are a variety of

perspectives. Could you imagine another Australian politician doing

this? I suppose I could, I am not saying that another politician would

not do it, certainly, the fact Tony Abbott has done it means his

successors will think we should do this as well. What about British

politicians, not that we have the equivalent of the outback. The

closest we have got is one day cabinet meetings away from London.

Manchester, Liverpool! Just to square the circle, this man is quite

hard right wing in his ideological views, but he's clearly a very

compassionate man who believes involuntary is. When those fires in

Australia, when he became Prime Minister they could not find him

because he was doing his traditional Fire Fighting. -- he believes in the

culture of volunteering. It is not unusual to have conservative

politicians who combine this with a lot of personal compassion. I

suspect he's one of those. He likes to get hands-on, because he's got

some big issues, he needs to do his best. Thank you for joining us. .

Now, what's it like being a member of an all-male,

But if you want to know, and get the chance, ask David Cameron,

Failing that, you could watch a new film, that's out tomorrow,

The riot club. In a few years these boys will be very important. Or

should I say the Bollington club. It started as wanting to write a piece

about young wealthy people. I was first researching it for the theatre

play in 2007, that is when the stories about the Bollington club

were starting to surface. This is an opportunity to reconsider the type

of person... The best and the brightest. And exclusive dining club

at Oxford University, the club, which still exist today, was made

famous because some Obama 's powerful politicians are former

members. This movie is this woman's take on what the rich and most

privileged elite could getting up to. Westminster, Eaton, Harrow, if

you have to do. The film centres on one night of debauchery at a country

pub where we see the young members of the club getting trashed and

destroy everything in sight. Your play, Posh, was a huge hit going up

to the 2010 election and now we are getting into the real campaign for

the 2015 general election. What do you think, probably the two most

powerful men in government, David Cameron the primary step, the

Chancellor George Osborne, will make of this film considering they were

in this club? They might take issue with what the film suggests. I hope

they would enjoy the humour of it. Hopefully they would find it an

entertaining ride although they would probably be required to come

out afterwards and say it was dreadful. We have a portrait of...

You cannot go through there. Laura Wade insists the work is not about

today's politicians. We're not just offering you a club, I am offering

you the future. It is the time. But questions of class and

accountability and the issue of the privileged backgrounds of top Tory

MPs are all put under the spotlight. It's a problem that has been

discussed any number of times, that they are not necessarily

representative of the rest of society and people who have been

through a public school upbringing and straight into Oxford and

Westminster, how much do they really understand? If they don't have that

knowledge, what efforts are they making to get it? And obviously the

film is dealing with a very small number of characters. It is not at

all attempting to say all public school boys are like that, that

everybody at Oxford is like that. It asks the question. It's time for you

to leave. CHUCKLES And the Conservative MP, David Amess

joins us now from College Green. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Do

you think films like this will stoke this image of arrogant posh boys,

the image that your fellow MP Nadine Dorey 's referred to as David

Cameron and George Osborne? Macro no, I don't think it will have any

effect at all. Most people have never heard of this club. Perhaps

less about the club, and more about the image, the posh image of certain

sections of politicians who do not really represent the public at

large, is that not an issue for the Conservatives?

The reason I initiated this trawl of colleagues with working class

backgrounds is I got fed up with people suggesting we are all posh

and come from wealthy backgrounds. If you ask me where the real wealth

and poshness comes from is now on the Labour and liberal benches. I

have identified up to 50 of my colleagues who have working class

backgrounds and roots. Many have remarkable stories. I think their

experiences add a great deal to the national debate in Westminster.

Right, but is the reason that they don't come to the fore and they are

not highlighted is because the backgrounds of a lot of senior

figures and I take your point in the Labour Party, too, but within the

Conservative Party, half of Conservative MPs went to private

schools, many of the Cabinet went to Oxford and Cambridge and many are

very wealthy. That obviously reinforces that image? Well, you

see, this is a complete misnomer. Is it? One in six of my colleagues have

a working class background. Look at Patrick McLaughlin's background and

Sajit's background. He arrived in the with a pound. When they read

this, others have had a bath in a tin bath. Half of these colleagues

seemed to be hosed down in the street. They have remarkable

backgrounds and have gone on to hold high office. Right but look at...

Their backgrounds are being misrepresented. Their backgrounds

may not have been misrepresented but are they overwhelmed by the

backgrounds of David Cameron, of Boris Johnson, of George Osborne and

other old etonians? I'm just putting it to you. Rightly or wrongly, that

there are many of the advisors, even at number ten who are also from a

similar elite clique and this is the top of the party? Well, the issue of

advisors, I haven't got enormous knowledge of but in my lifetime.

Winston Churchill, very posh background, but then you go on to

Margaret Thatcher and to John Major, working class background. I don't

think it much matters. No, but has it reverted to privately-educated

old eye tonians, even if -- etonians, even if the numbers aren't

there but do they have disproportionate influence in terms

of the image of the party? I think they are given too much publicity.

The public are not concerned with the background of the politicians,

it is whether or not they govern effective. I don't have a hang-up

because I have a working class background and I shouldn't think

that David Cameron has a backhang-up because he has a come if for tab

background. It is whether or not who is chosen to govern

background. It is whether or not who sense to experience well. I think

that's what the Conservative Party has. Are you worried about the

timing of this film? There are obviously some of your colleagues

who are worried about t in the run-up to the 2015 election. A

fellow Conservative MP, says this looks like revenge for George

Osborne cutting film test value subsidies? I'm in the worried. It'll

probably just be like the Chelsea reality proximity not accurate, fan

it is acy. I don't think it'll do any damage whatsoever. If anyone

wants to make a film about working class Conservatives, I'll love a

part. We'll give them your number if we get any calls. Mark Malloch

Brown, you were educated at Marlborough College and Cambridge.

Is the MP of Conservative MPs disproportionate in your mind? It

wasn't around the Cabinet table I served on. There were a couple of us

who had public school backgrounds. To me, this whole issue is tragic.

There is no other country in the world where you could make a movie

like this which would resonate. Will it resonate? I think it will. You

have to look at the debates in Scotland during the referendum, this

ideal of an elite ruling them from London. What about Harvard, they

have not made a move have I about t but the club that George Bush was

part of in Harvard often features. Yale There are lots of private clubs

but they are not in a sense represented an elite out of touch

group in the way that is suggested here. In fact those Yale Secret

Societies have pretty much lost their footing nowadays, I

understand. It is unfortunate because I'm perfectly willing to

accept and believe that David Cameron is governing not because of

his education but in he sees, as the best interests of the country but

this is cutting away at his legitimacy and authority and

frankly, sclas a big drag on this country. Whatever -- class is a dig

drag. Whatever your view. I think it is olding back our GDP a percentagep

point a year. We are so preoccupied with this history. It is really

disappointing. Well obviously the last thing you want is for your

colleagues to be out of touch with voters? From 1997 to 2010 we had a

Labour Prime Minister with a really posh background and another Labour

Prime Minister with a comfortable background but as far as I'm

concerned, this film will have no impact at all with the general

public. Thank you very much. I can't believe that he said that

Made in Chelsea wasn't accurate. I thought it was a documentary.

You have the box set. I have.

Yes, I know, you're watching me on the Sunday Politics.

But what other worthwhile things could you be doing?

Westminster and Whitehall are liberally dotted with some

magnificent buildings, some of which like to make themselves known

but you don't often get inside them, which is kind of the purpose

Lots of the properties will be open to the public.

Some of the more important ones you have to book.

But I'll give you a quick tour of five of them that are a stone's

When it comes to Westminster Hall it's the roof you are really coming

to see, the largest medieval hammer beam roof in Europe.

The hall itself has been the scene of some major dramas in our history.

They condemned a king to die here, but even though I'm showing you

the inside, still come along because actually the surprise is how

From the ancient to the modern, Portcullis House is only 13 years'

It is where many MPs have their offices and often meet the public

It has some infamously expensive trees to look after and

since you paid for the whole thing as tax payers, you

The whole point of Open House London,

is it gets you inside buildings you are not normally able to see.

Getting the front door of Downing Street is hard work normally

but they are opening it up, the state rooms are available.

But here is the thing - it's been the seat of Government

They are security conscious and the fact is that anyone who is

lucky enough to be in the ballot to get inside here, will actually have

to be security checked, a background check will take place.

So, right in the heart of Whitehall, two huge purpose-built Government

office buildings in the Victorian period.

Magnificent on the outside but also on the inside.

The Treasury, the famous drum, you can get access to that this weekend,

which you often see when the Chancellor is leaving the Treasury

for the Commons on Budget day and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office

are opening up the India office and the Durbar Court

which is magnificent but the real prize in here is the staircase.

So, there you are, if you are interested in history and

politics, that's an architectural smog he is boring for you.

And the Director of Open City, Victoria Thornton is with me now.

How did this come about? Well I started it in my back room. I'm not

an architect. Have you allowed the public in to see your back room? I

don't think they want to. Was there resistance? A lot. It was 22 years

ago. Gosh. I know, kind of of like been continuity girl but with the

Department of Heritage, there wasn't a Department of Culture, we were in

a heavy recession, 55% of architects were unemployed, so there was not a

real feeling of particularly contemporary architecture. It was

very much about the past. I thought actually architecture is about the

quality, not the age. So you have the Foreign Office, the Treasury,

Portcullis House, opposite Big Ben The Bank of England. The Bank of

England as well, and number ten. Anything else? 26 Whitehall, as

well, part of the Cabinet Office as well. And well HM Treasury. So you

have at Foreign Office HM Treasury you can slip from one or the other.

It is great. You can walk up and down Whitehall for 48 hours and look

at some fantastic architecture. Do has to be a good thing. Great thing.

My vote is go and look at the Foreign Office. The Treasury - in

order to efficiently govern us and know how to cut our spending has

rather remodelled itself and the modern architecture inside that

wonderful old building, where the dear old Foreign Office, it is still

the original - I don't know how you run foreign affairs from t but it is

a beautiful architectural thing. I loved being a minister there. I

guess you didn't try for MI5 or MI6? We do. What do they say? Not this

year. Come back next year. It is always refurbishment, in September.

And what do people have to do, I'm sure they can't just turn up? Most

is. The whole point is that it is free access for all. It is about not

getting ahead. It is free and that's the whole point of the ethos of it.

It isn't exclusive. It is totally inclusive. Thinking about your

earlier point. What about the security checks? Security generally

are good. Obviously there are some security checks. Downing Street is a

ballot. Yes, and we do a few ballots that. Did have 25,000 people in the

ballot. Really? Yes, so there is a real interest in architecture.

Queues? There are, but you accept t you know. It's like if you want to

get in, otherwise go and have a cup of tea on those days but we have

buildings like the Bank of England, which has about a two-hour queue but

we have the gherkin and we also have the new Leden Hall building, which

is the key one this year Do you get to see the gold in the Bank of

England? No, I don't think so. I wouldn't mind some of it! But they

are not all the big sort of state properties r they, that you can go

and see? It is a whole range. It is how you live, work and play, we call

t it is about opening eyes minds and doors. -- we call it. It to get you

interested in architecture N your education system, did any of you

learn about architecture? Most probably not. It is an education

weekend but fun. --. What about Admiralty House? It has in the past.

Our hidden gem is Dover House. It is in. It is a pre-booking, which is,

of course for Scotland. It used to be the seat of the Scottish Office

and I think is now Scotland House. We will see what happens tomorrow

about that. I think it is a great idea. Congratulations. Pleasure. Now

there is time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz. I have

forgotten all about it. The question was: Which job did former Labour

minister, Alan Johnson suggest Ed Miliband should have done before

entering politics? Was it, a posman, TV presenter, stand-up comedian or

soldier. I soldier. I must say I rather agree. It would knock a few

of those metropolitan spots off him. Do you think so? I would love to

know what his reaction would be. I can't quite see him as a soldier.

What do you think? That's the point. None of us could. It would have

helped him survive the crowds in Edinburgh.

Anyway, well done, you have the right answer. Thank you for being

with us today, Mark. That's all for today. Thank you to all of our

guests. The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now. I will

be back on BBC One tonight, from 10.40 onwards and all through the

night until 9.00am tomorrow morning. Getting Westminster reaction to the

results of the Scottish referendum as they come in, on our programme

Scotland Decides, with hue Edwards in Glasgow. If I'm still awake, I

will be back with the Daily Politics here on BBC Two at noon tomorrow

and, oh, yes, Newsnight tomorrow night as well. You are joking. It is

a quiet 24 hours. Goodbye.