19/09/2014 Daily Politics


19/09/2014

Andrew Neil with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Supporters of the Union celebrate as Scotland votes No to independence

:00:17.:00:54.

Alex Salmond concedes defeat in the campaign, but says the result

:00:55.:01:04.

shows huge demand for change and calls for the swift devolution

:01:05.:01:06.

David Cameron promises to deliver on his commitment to more Scottish

:01:07.:01:12.

But he also says it's time for English devolution,

:01:13.:01:18.

including an end to Scottish MPs voting on purely English matters

:01:19.:01:20.

Ed Miliband could lack a majority for his English agenda

:01:21.:01:31.

if he couldn't count on his Scottish votes.

:01:32.:01:38.

In the end, the NOs had it and by a bigger 10-point majority than

:01:39.:01:42.

Over the next hour, we'll bring you all the latest

:01:43.:01:47.

on last night's historic vote and the big constitutional changes for

:01:48.:01:50.

the whole of the UK which are now promised by all the main parties.

:01:51.:01:56.

It was a solid margin of victory for the No campaign in Scotland,

:01:57.:01:58.

one that looks like settling the matter for the foreseeable future.

:01:59.:02:05.

55% voted in favour of Scotland remaining part of the UK,

:02:06.:02:07.

It was the highest ever turn-out in a British election,

:02:08.:02:12.

with 85% of those who'd registered to vote casting their ballot.

:02:13.:02:17.

That meant that just over two million voters said No -

:02:18.:02:19.

Speaking shortly after 6am this morning, the First Minister

:02:20.:02:26.

of Scotland, Alex Salmond, conceded defeat, but demanded that party

:02:27.:02:28.

leaders in Westminster make good on their last-minute campaign promise

:02:29.:02:31.

Scotland has, by majority, decided not, at this stage, to become an

:02:32.:02:49.

independent country. I accept that verdict of the people and I call on

:02:50.:02:54.

all of Scotland to follow suit and access the democratic verdict of the

:02:55.:02:56.

people of Scotland. - accept. All of us in this campaign will say

:02:57.:03:16.

that 55%, that 1.6 million votes is a substantial vote for Scottish

:03:17.:03:20.

independence and the future of this country.

:03:21.:03:21.

Less than an hour later, at just after 7am, David Cameron spoke to

:03:22.:03:24.

The people of Scotland have spoken and it is a clear result. They've

:03:25.:03:39.

kept our country of four nations together. Like millions of other

:03:40.:03:45.

people, I am delighted. As I said during the campaign, it would have

:03:46.:03:49.

broken my heart to see our United Kingdom come to an end and I know

:03:50.:03:54.

that sentiment was shared by people not just across our country, bottles

:03:55.:03:59.

around the world because of what we've achieved together in the past

:04:00.:04:02.

and what we can do together in the future.

:04:03.:04:04.

But he didn't just repeat his promise to Scotland.

:04:05.:04:06.

Under pressure from his backbenchers and even

:04:07.:04:08.

a few cabinet ministers, he had a commitment to the rest of the UK.

:04:09.:04:16.

The crucial part missing from this national discussing - discussion is

:04:17.:04:23.

England. We've heard the voice of Scotland and now the millions of

:04:24.:04:26.

voices of England must also be heard. The question of English votes

:04:27.:04:35.

for English laws, the so-called West Lothian question, requires a

:04:36.:04:39.

decisive answer. Just as Scotland will vote separately in the Scottish

:04:40.:04:44.

Parliament on their issues of tax, spending and welfare, so to England,

:04:45.:04:49.

as well as Wales and Northern Ireland, should be able to vote on

:04:50.:04:54.

these issues. All this must take in place in tandem with and at the same

:04:55.:05:01.

pace as the Scotland. The Prime Minister adding in English

:05:02.:05:05.

devolution and maybe more devolution for Wales and Northern Ireland, on

:05:06.:05:08.

top of his promise for more devolution to Scotland. We will be

:05:09.:05:15.

joined shortly by Kevin McCann of the observer, who backed the yes

:05:16.:05:18.

campaign. We are waiting for him in class guy. - Glasgow.

:05:19.:05:24.

And with me here in London are Anne McElvoy of the Economist,

:05:25.:05:26.

Let's talk now to the Defence Secretary, Michael Fallon,

:05:27.:05:30.

Last night was a very good result for the no campaign. If we turn our

:05:31.:05:40.

minds back to what a lot of us were thinking at the outset when this

:05:41.:05:44.

referendum was announced, we thought the result would perhaps be more

:05:45.:05:49.

obviously a no. What has happened is the authority Mr Cameron has had has

:05:50.:05:54.

been eaten away and now he has to regain that. He has the ten point no

:05:55.:05:58.

vote under his belt, but if it had gone the other way, we would be

:05:59.:06:02.

talking about whether he would survive. Is it going to be the

:06:03.:06:07.

disunited States of Britain? How does he get around that? Ten points

:06:08.:06:14.

isn't bad as a lead. It is a good lead. If I was advising Scots, I

:06:15.:06:19.

would say listen carefully to what Alex Salmond said, he said at this

:06:20.:06:24.

stage. Would you really not take no for an answer? That the Scottish

:06:25.:06:27.

National question. I don't think Scotland needs a Scottish National

:06:28.:06:33.

party any more, it needs a realignment of its own politics so

:06:34.:06:36.

it can get on with the business of discussing its own top one of the

:06:37.:06:41.

striking aspects of the campaign was a lot of Scots didn't know what the

:06:42.:06:45.

Scottish Government was responsible for. Now it will get more powers so

:06:46.:06:50.

there's an argument for realising - realigning in Scotland. There was a

:06:51.:07:01.

panic and we saw that panic. There was a sense in which constant nation

:07:02.:07:04.

- constitutional reform was privatised to Gordon Brown.

:07:05.:07:12.

Outsourcing. I like the word privatised and Gordon Brown being

:07:13.:07:16.

together. He's now living with that, he has to do something that. The

:07:17.:07:22.

backbenches and some of his cabinet ministers are furious at the lack of

:07:23.:07:26.

consultation so they are saying, you can go ahead and do this, but we

:07:27.:07:31.

want English devolution as well. We are back to the Michael Howard

:07:32.:07:35.

proposal. English votes, England needs more of a say. David Cameron

:07:36.:07:40.

back then was supportive of that view, and then decided to go for an

:07:41.:07:44.

all in approach, turned himself into that kind of Tory leader. If he

:07:45.:07:50.

turned himself back, he has to take this seriously. Devo-max being

:07:51.:07:54.

thrown onto the table. It's not devo-max. Devo-max applies to

:07:55.:08:03.

basically everything is devolved, including all taxation powers except

:08:04.:08:08.

foreign policy, defence and make - macroeconomic policy. Devo-max would

:08:09.:08:12.

involve Scots collecting all their tax. This is TiVo plus.

:08:13.:08:21.

- devo-plus. This is where the immediate pressure is going to come

:08:22.:08:30.

from. Why did he not consult his party? They didn't expect this.

:08:31.:08:39.

Would it have been better to put that devo thing on the agenda

:08:40.:08:43.

earlier so everyone could have a say? The sense that his party didn't

:08:44.:08:48.

have a say was what I was driving at. Although they have a fair idea

:08:49.:08:52.

what they want to do in Scotland, I would suggest they are at base camp

:08:53.:08:56.

with what they want to do in England and there is no agreement between

:08:57.:09:00.

the parties. The problem is every attempt the governments have had to

:09:01.:09:06.

make the English accept greater devolution has been defeated by

:09:07.:09:11.

English people. Most viewers of this programme do not even know that in

:09:12.:09:17.

2004 there was a referendum in which 900,000 people voted by 78% to 22%

:09:18.:09:23.

not to have a regional assembly. When they put the question of having

:09:24.:09:27.

an elected mayors to the major cities in the autumn of 2012, eight

:09:28.:09:33.

out of the nine asked said no. Only Bristol said yes and Doncaster said

:09:34.:09:37.

they wanted to retain one. The assumption made that the English are

:09:38.:09:42.

gagging for particular forms of devolution is not true. Talk to

:09:43.:09:46.

people about constitutional reform in this country, as I found out, is

:09:47.:09:53.

really tricky. But what has happened in England, and the polls show

:09:54.:09:57.

this, is that with Scottish devolution and the Scottish argument

:09:58.:10:02.

being on our TV sets every night, the English are starting to say, if

:10:03.:10:06.

it's good enough to Scotland, we'll have some of that. Don't divide us

:10:07.:10:10.

by region, don't think that decentralisation to big cities is

:10:11.:10:14.

the same as devolution, we want to vote on our schools in the same way

:10:15.:10:20.

Scotland does. David is right, every time they've been offered Ham and

:10:21.:10:24.

eggs or double ham and eggs, everybody said they didn't want ham

:10:25.:10:27.

and dates. That's different to a situation where Scotland has been

:10:28.:10:33.

thrown extra powers in it attempt to keep it in the union, which was

:10:34.:10:39.

successful. The mood around it is different now to what David

:10:40.:10:44.

describes. Things were often put to people when they weren't prepared.

:10:45.:10:47.

Psychologically or emotionally. It's very different and the degree of

:10:48.:10:52.

engagement in England, listening to people in supermarkets, they are

:10:53.:10:55.

very engaged now with the Scottish question in a way they weren't. Even

:10:56.:11:00.

if that's true, there's a problem. Morning the Prime Minister hitched

:11:01.:11:06.

English devolution to Scottish devolution. The two had to go in

:11:07.:11:10.

tandem. I don't see how they can do that. That's a real problem. They

:11:11.:11:16.

got some kind of agreement about what should go to Scotland in the

:11:17.:11:21.

event of a no vote. They should deliver on that before we start

:11:22.:11:26.

messing around with questions of devolution in England. The question

:11:27.:11:30.

of an English parliament is so fraught with difficulties for the

:11:31.:11:34.

simple reason that if you have a First Minister of England, what's

:11:35.:11:37.

the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom for? You do in Germany and a

:11:38.:11:43.

lot of federal countries. You have very powerful first ministers.

:11:44.:11:50.

England is so much bigger than any of the other components put

:11:51.:11:55.

together. The only equivalent of having a lender system in England

:11:56.:11:59.

would be divide England into equal parts, London and the Midlands and

:12:00.:12:03.

so on. And there's no appetite for that at the moment. I would support

:12:04.:12:09.

it, but almost everything I support, people don't like. We will talk a

:12:10.:12:14.

lot about this. Let's go live to Glasgow when Norman Smith is. What's

:12:15.:12:19.

it like the morning after the night before? It's striking. Glass go is

:12:20.:12:27.

one of the few places that voted yes and people are having to come to

:12:28.:12:32.

terms with last night's decision. Although we heard a lot about the

:12:33.:12:36.

motivation and the commitment and the pattern - Passion of the yes

:12:37.:12:42.

side, maybe what we underestimated wants this ear - sheer determination

:12:43.:12:47.

of the quiet no majority to come out and vote. These are people who buy

:12:48.:12:51.

and large weren't doing interviews, they weren't doing vox pops in the

:12:52.:12:57.

street, but in the privacy of the polling booth, they let their true

:12:58.:13:01.

feelings show. The second thing is looking at the Labour vote, there

:13:02.:13:06.

seemed a moment when Alex Salmond was just taking huge chunks out of

:13:07.:13:11.

it. What we saw last night is when you look at Clackmannanshire,

:13:12.:13:14.

Renfrewshire, those kinds of places, the Labour vote held up much

:13:15.:13:19.

better than even some of the Labour people thought. Why? I suspect in

:13:20.:13:24.

part it was because of Gordon Brown's intervention. He galvanised

:13:25.:13:28.

the Labour vote where previously it seemed flat and dispirited. I do

:13:29.:13:34.

think his intervention was almost in a motion or kick-start for the

:13:35.:13:38.

Labour vote which in the end, by and large, hung in there on the side of

:13:39.:13:45.

the no team. The silent majority and a more solid Labour vote explain why

:13:46.:13:50.

at the end of the day the no side have recorded a fairly significant

:13:51.:13:56.

victory. Norman, are we sure that the Nationalists will accept this is

:13:57.:14:01.

over for the foreseeable future? Perhaps for a generation? Will they

:14:02.:14:06.

look at bringing it back? Is Alex Salmond's position safe or is Nicola

:14:07.:14:12.

Sturgeon beginning to measure the curtains? My sense of the latter

:14:13.:14:17.

part is that Alex Salmond's position is certainly safe for now. If he had

:14:18.:14:22.

been pushed down to 40% or below, I think it would be a very, very

:14:23.:14:26.

different situation. He can now point to pushing up the

:14:27.:14:31.

pro-independence phot to 45%. Bear in mind a few months ago it was down

:14:32.:14:38.

at 25%. He's pushed it right out and he will get more powers from

:14:39.:14:42.

Westminster so he can claim that is a significant achievement. Is

:14:43.:14:46.

independence over for a generation? I would be cautious about that. When

:14:47.:14:51.

Alex Salmond has said it's over for a generation, he always that is my

:14:52.:14:56.

view. He won't be around for a generation. There will be a new

:14:57.:15:01.

generation of Scottish Nationalists. Will they sit on their hands

:15:02.:15:06.

forever? That's more questionable. In the interim, will the SNP

:15:07.:15:18.

strategy not be, given where they did do well, what you would call

:15:19.:15:20.

Labour areas, Dundee, Glasgow and so on, will they not now attempt to

:15:21.:15:23.

replace Scottish Labour as the country's centre-left party? One of

:15:24.:15:29.

the interesting things about this whole referendum, it is basically

:15:30.:15:32.

round one between the Scottish National party and the Labour Party,

:15:33.:15:36.

who are engaged in pretty much a fight to the death to be the left of

:15:37.:15:41.

centre party in Scotland, and we will see round two in the 2016

:15:42.:15:45.

general election, and who knows, maybe we will see Gordon Brown

:15:46.:15:50.

against Nicola Sturgeon. But it is a fight to the death between the two

:15:51.:15:57.

stipes -- Nicolas Sturgeon. The question is whether the Labour Party

:15:58.:16:01.

managers to reenergise itself, rebuild itself, because it has been

:16:02.:16:05.

profoundly damaged by the perception of being in hock to the London

:16:06.:16:10.

party, but not for the understanding the aspirations and sentiment, and

:16:11.:16:20.

even nationalism. There is a bit task for the Labour Party to try to

:16:21.:16:26.

counterpart the SNP's, nation of centre politics. One of the threads

:16:27.:16:34.

Scottish Labour may face is that the Nationalists will say all right, you

:16:35.:16:37.

have voted no, but you can't trust these people in Westminster. They

:16:38.:16:42.

may not deliver this home rule, as Gordon Brown called it. The surest

:16:43.:16:47.

way of doing it is to send us to Westminster. We will keep their feet

:16:48.:16:53.

to the fire. Obviously, the SNP, now independents has gone, has to keep

:16:54.:16:58.

itself by continuously suggesting there is a tension between Scotland

:16:59.:17:02.

and Westminster, but there are dangers for Alex Salmond and the SNP

:17:03.:17:06.

in doing that, because one of the things that polls show, in

:17:07.:17:10.

attitudinal terms, is Scotland is put in much the same as everybody

:17:11.:17:14.

else in the United Kingdom, which leaves an immense space in the

:17:15.:17:20.

centre right, which the SNP has imposed a Nationalist blanket over

:17:21.:17:23.

the large sections of the centre-left and centre-right. The

:17:24.:17:27.

question or not is whether Scotland retains that. One of the hidden

:17:28.:17:31.

things in it has been the extraordinary performance of the

:17:32.:17:35.

Scots Conservatives. 95% of them wanted to stay. They got the vote. I

:17:36.:17:45.

am not completely ruling out a return of a centre-right bloc which

:17:46.:17:50.

would give the SNP some problems. There won't be a centre right swing,

:17:51.:18:01.

and that is why the Conservatives want all income taxed to go there,

:18:02.:18:05.

because they want a correlation between how much the parliament

:18:06.:18:08.

spends on how much is taxed. Then the interim, I would suggest, even

:18:09.:18:13.

though the side one, there is something of a crisis for the

:18:14.:18:16.

Scottish Labour Party. I think so, and I think the fact that Gordon

:18:17.:18:22.

Brown, and I have to say, I think his performance was absolutely

:18:23.:18:29.

instrumental in this result. I think the Scottish Labour Party looked...

:18:30.:18:32.

I no they sense only people up there, the rising generation, the Ed

:18:33.:18:36.

Miliband stars over the summer, and in fact it didn't seem to do much

:18:37.:18:49.

good at all, and it was only when Gordon came up with those jump leads

:18:50.:18:52.

he provided to the No campaign, he found the hearts and minds of the

:18:53.:18:55.

central Belt. That's when things started to change. Gordon is not a

:18:56.:18:58.

player now. What are you going to do now? Let me quickly go back to

:18:59.:19:00.

Norman, finally. Does it not tell us something about the state of the

:19:01.:19:04.

Scottish Labour Party, Norman, that the big figures on the Labour side

:19:05.:19:08.

for better together were Alistair Darling, Westminster MP, Gordon

:19:09.:19:13.

Brown, Westminster MP, Jim Murphy, Westminster MP, indeed at one Better

:19:14.:19:23.

Together meeting run by Labour, they said they would rather have Ruth

:19:24.:19:30.

Davidson fan Joanne Lamont. I take your point, but I would not

:19:31.:19:33.

underestimate the galvanising effect this result probably has on the

:19:34.:19:37.

Scottish Labour Party. They have been taking a battering for a long

:19:38.:19:41.

time, and I wonder if this will give them a chance just to draw breath

:19:42.:19:45.

and represent themselves to the Scottish people. I do also say watch

:19:46.:19:50.

Gordon Brown. I see he is making a big speech tomorrow, just listening

:19:51.:19:55.

to the language of that man, ice eyes he sees a role for himself back

:19:56.:20:02.

in -- I surmise he sees a role for himself back in front line politics

:20:03.:20:05.

in Scotland. He hasn't said as much, but the reception he has received,

:20:06.:20:09.

he has energised, he is full of it, it has a passion for Scotland. We

:20:10.:20:14.

remember him down at Westminster, a broken, cowled, shrunken figure. It

:20:15.:20:19.

is like Gordon Brown of 20 years ago here. If I had money to place, I

:20:20.:20:24.

would say Gordon Brown would seek to lead the Scottish Labour Party.

:20:25.:20:28.

Really? Have you told Jim Murphy that yet, Norman? LAUGHTER

:20:29.:20:34.

Not yet, that's a very good point! It is clear they are going to have

:20:35.:20:37.

to do something. If they face an attack from the SNP on the left,

:20:38.:20:42.

they will have to energise it. When I was out in North Lanarkshire and

:20:43.:20:47.

Hamilton, a lot of lapsed Labour voters, a lot of people who had been

:20:48.:20:50.

lifetime Labour voters, but they were voting yes. They were voting

:20:51.:20:55.

for independence because they just felt that the Labour Party did not

:20:56.:20:59.

do anything for them any more. Let's be honest, the Labour Party has been

:21:00.:21:04.

for so long the establishment up there, and in many ways not always a

:21:05.:21:07.

very attractive sort of establishment. And the other thing,

:21:08.:21:10.

which I think they struggle from, is that many, many people who vote for

:21:11.:21:15.

the Scottish National party are clearly not Nationalists. They vote

:21:16.:21:18.

for the SNP, I think, because they think the SNP will strike a much

:21:19.:21:22.

harder deal with Westminster politicians, and they want somebody

:21:23.:21:25.

who will go into the corner and fight much harder than they suspect

:21:26.:21:30.

Labour politicians, who perhaps are a bit more accommodating, because

:21:31.:21:34.

they are part of a UK wide party. So if you a Scot who wants a better

:21:35.:21:38.

deal for Scotland and more power devolved Scotland, and you want to

:21:39.:21:41.

stand up to the Westminster government, you may not be a

:21:42.:21:44.

Nationalist but you may think you know what, I think those SNP people

:21:45.:21:49.

will get me a better deal, and I suspect that probably fuels a lot of

:21:50.:21:54.

the SNP support up here. Norman, thanks for that, and for all of our

:21:55.:21:57.

interviews during this campaign, it's been a pleasure, thank you very

:21:58.:22:05.

much. Where does Labour go here? There is a danger for Labour in this

:22:06.:22:10.

that they could lose seats to the Nationalists. They have now got this

:22:11.:22:13.

question of the Tories in England putting the West Lothian question.

:22:14.:22:19.

The risk is that Lynton Crosby will unleash the anti-English attack on

:22:20.:22:24.

them. But I am not at all sure in the sort of seats where Labour are

:22:25.:22:32.

fighting the Tories, one of the biggest problem is that was obvious

:22:33.:22:37.

was when Ed Miliband went up to Scotland from England, nobody really

:22:38.:22:42.

much seemed to notice him. All right, let's leave that here for the

:22:43.:22:47.

moment. I want to go to the Defence Secretary, Michael Fallon, he is in

:22:48.:22:51.

Westminster. Welcome to the Daily Politics. When the Prime Minister

:22:52.:22:59.

outsourced constitutional reform to Gordon Brown, was the cabinet

:23:00.:23:03.

consulted? Look, he didn't outsource it to Gordon Brown first we have

:23:04.:23:06.

been looking at these things for a long time as you know very well,

:23:07.:23:09.

Andrew. We had the Mackay commission looking at the sorts of things,

:23:10.:23:12.

successive Cabinet commissions have been looking at this. William Hague

:23:13.:23:17.

is now to take this forward, we have the Liberal Democrats participating.

:23:18.:23:19.

Even this morning, the Scottish Nationalist party participating. The

:23:20.:23:25.

question is will Labour stepped up to the plate and join in? Gordon

:23:26.:23:31.

Brown made some specific devolution proposals and backed it up with a

:23:32.:23:35.

timetable, talking about command white papers. Was that run past the

:23:36.:23:41.

Cabinet? We have been discussing these things, as I have just told

:23:42.:23:46.

you, for a long time. Was it run past the Cabinet? It is a simple

:23:47.:23:51.

question. The simple answer is yes, we did discuss the constitutional

:23:52.:23:54.

settlement, we have been doing that for a long time. Did the full

:23:55.:24:02.

Cabinet discussed the proposal is that Gordon Brown made in his

:24:03.:24:07.

speech, yes or no? You are getting into procedural points. Let me tell

:24:08.:24:12.

you that the government has been discussing more devolution for

:24:13.:24:16.

Scotland ever since the Mackay commission reported... Was the

:24:17.:24:21.

Cabinet consulted? The Cabinet has been involved in this whole process

:24:22.:24:24.

right from the very start, and we have now set out a very clear

:24:25.:24:28.

timetable, not simply Gordon Brown's timetable, we have set that

:24:29.:24:32.

out now, there will be a working party under William Hague, a

:24:33.:24:35.

consultation, a white paper, then draft legislation. We are going to

:24:36.:24:39.

aim to do all of that before the election express. Did you know what

:24:40.:24:43.

Gordon Brown was going to say before he said it? We all know what the

:24:44.:24:48.

drift of this is, we have got to offer the Scottish people and the

:24:49.:24:51.

Scottish Parliament a better settlement. We have to do the same

:24:52.:24:55.

for England as well. You know the drift but not the content? I don't

:24:56.:25:00.

look at the exact content of Gordon Brown's speeches, I don't think he

:25:01.:25:04.

looks at mine, but we are all clear, ourselves and the Liberal Democrats

:25:05.:25:08.

and the SNP this morning, that we need to re-examine the current

:25:09.:25:10.

devolution settlement both for England and for Scotland, and we

:25:11.:25:14.

have now set out a very clear timetable for doing that. So the

:25:15.:25:19.

question of who exactly said what when and so on really is less

:25:20.:25:22.

academic than that commitment from the three main parties to get on

:25:23.:25:25.

with this now. Do you agree with your former Cabinet colleague, Owen

:25:26.:25:29.

Paterson, that the Prime Minister has agreed to some "very rash

:25:30.:25:35.

promises"? No, I don't agree with that. We need to have more

:25:36.:25:40.

devolution, and acknowledge the strength of feeling in Scotland.

:25:41.:25:44.

They need more control over tax, overspending, over the welfare

:25:45.:25:47.

system, but it's equally important to recognise that you can't do that

:25:48.:25:52.

without a fair and balanced system that will allowing them to have the

:25:53.:25:54.

same, and will make sure that English votes only for English laws

:25:55.:26:00.

and English taxes. That is what I think Owen Paterson will welcome.

:26:01.:26:06.

English votes for English laws, is that the policy of the coalition or

:26:07.:26:09.

the policy of the Conservative Party? It is certainly the policy of

:26:10.:26:14.

the Conservative Party, the Prime Minister said that at this morning.

:26:15.:26:19.

The Liberal Democrats too want to see a rebalanced political

:26:20.:26:23.

settlement. The question you should be asking is Labour prepared to

:26:24.:26:27.

answer this, prepared to step up and accent that Scottish Labour MPs

:26:28.:26:32.

should no longer vote on taxes and laws and welfare that applies only

:26:33.:26:36.

in England, and you should be asking Labour that very question. I am

:26:37.:26:40.

always grateful when you help me to give questions to the Labour Party,

:26:41.:26:44.

though to be honest, I do really need your help. Let me ask you this

:26:45.:26:49.

instead, if the coalition, the Lib Dems, are largely onside with this,

:26:50.:26:53.

why did Danny Alexander say on the 17th of September, only a few days

:26:54.:26:57.

ago, there is no party proposing to take away the voting rights of

:26:58.:27:01.

Scottish MPs, that is not part of the agenda, that is not what is

:27:02.:27:05.

going to happen? I will help you further here by saying obviously you

:27:06.:27:09.

need to ask Danny Alexander to account for what he has said. We set

:27:10.:27:13.

out our position very carefully, the new settlement has to be fairer...

:27:14.:27:18.

But you don't me you had the Lib Dems onside. They are onside in

:27:19.:27:22.

recognising that we'd have a more balanced settlement. That is not

:27:23.:27:26.

going to happen, what a bit of the English language do you not

:27:27.:27:30.

understand about Danny Alexander saying it is not going to happen. We

:27:31.:27:36.

will see. William Hague will convene these discussions with the liberal

:27:37.:27:41.

Democrats, and part of the Coalition Government. Obviously, we hope other

:27:42.:27:45.

parties will contribute as well. The other encouraging news is that the

:27:46.:27:50.

SNP will, you have already accepted that you need to press Labour on

:27:51.:27:54.

that. Nobody has an exact way forward here. It is a difficult

:27:55.:27:57.

question, but we are going to get to grips with it and publish our

:27:58.:28:01.

proposals before the general election. The prime and are still

:28:02.:28:05.

says that he needed consensus to take these English devolution

:28:06.:28:09.

proposals forward. If you have Danny Alexander saying it's not going to

:28:10.:28:13.

happen, and we know from speaking to Labour MPs that that is the last

:28:14.:28:16.

thing they want, to lose their voting rights of Scottish MPs, where

:28:17.:28:23.

is the consensus coming from? All parties have to accept, now, that

:28:24.:28:27.

there is a great deal of unease in England, in other parts of the

:28:28.:28:33.

United Kingdom. If more powers are granted to Scotland without some

:28:34.:28:38.

compensating rebalancing of the Blitz was adamant. You will hear

:28:39.:28:43.

voices in the Labour Party, like John Denham, recognising that, and I

:28:44.:28:45.

am sure there are English Liberal Democrats who will recognise that as

:28:46.:28:51.

well. If you cannot get agreement on English devolution, does the plan

:28:52.:28:56.

for Scottish devolution, as outlined in Gordon Brown's timetable with

:28:57.:29:02.

government backing, does it still go ahead if there is not an agreement

:29:03.:29:08.

for English devolution? We are hoping for agreement, we are not

:29:09.:29:11.

planning on failing, and we are hoping for draft legislation before

:29:12.:29:14.

the election so it can be legislated, and be in the

:29:15.:29:19.

manifestoes of the political parties at the general election, so the

:29:20.:29:22.

electorate can also pronounce on whether they access these proposals,

:29:23.:29:26.

then we can put them into statute if they do, early in 2015. In Europe,

:29:27.:29:32.

the unlikely event you don't get agreement, others may think it is

:29:33.:29:36.

highly unlikely you don't, can Scottish devolution go-ahead on its

:29:37.:29:40.

own? Can you meet that thou that was made on the front page of the daily

:29:41.:29:44.

record to the Scottish people come up Will they have to wait until you

:29:45.:29:50.

sort out English devolution? Our aim is to get agreement on this before

:29:51.:29:53.

the general election, and that is what we're doing urgently now in

:29:54.:29:56.

response to the vote last night and the unease that is in inland that if

:29:57.:30:01.

any further parties -- in England if any further powers are given to

:30:02.:30:06.

Scotland, they should be balanced in England. We are not aiming to fail.

:30:07.:30:11.

Can you just explain to our viewers, including your backbench colleagues

:30:12.:30:15.

who may be watching this, what is the logic of giving the Scottish

:30:16.:30:19.

Parliament substantial tax raising powers, which is what you intend to

:30:20.:30:24.

do, and at the same time enshrining and guarantee -- guaranteeing the

:30:25.:30:37.

Barnett formula? The Barnett formula is declining in importance. It still

:30:38.:30:43.

gives per capita spending in Scotland anything from ?1200 to

:30:44.:30:49.

?1500 more. That recognises some of the differences in Scotland, the

:30:50.:30:53.

wider geography and some of the issues in Scotland of dealing with

:30:54.:31:00.

more remote areas. I'm sorry, the Barnett formula does not recognise

:31:01.:31:04.

that. The Barnett formula is purely based on population. It has nothing

:31:05.:31:08.

to do with geography, nothing to do with need, it is purely population.

:31:09.:31:14.

Let me correct you. The reason the formula was introduced in 1978,

:31:15.:31:19.

statistically it's based on population, but it was precisely to

:31:20.:31:23.

introduced give the Scottish office and now the Scottish Government more

:31:24.:31:28.

flexibility to move spending between different spending lines to cope

:31:29.:31:32.

with the fact that Scotland has a much greater landmass, a different

:31:33.:31:36.

geography, remote areas and there are more Scottish choices to be made

:31:37.:31:44.

between different spending lines. Why did Joe Barnett tell me that it

:31:45.:31:48.

had nothing to do with need or geography? Why did he tell me that?

:31:49.:31:54.

Do you do - do you know more about it than the man who invented it? I

:31:55.:32:00.

know the purpose of it. It does reflect the fact that Scotland has

:32:01.:32:04.

different needs and a different geography to England, just as in

:32:05.:32:07.

England we make sure there is more spending that goes to remote areas

:32:08.:32:11.

like Cornwall or the north-west of England or where ever it is. We

:32:12.:32:29.

recognise these things in public spending, but it is declining in its

:32:30.:32:32.

significance because we have delegated more powers anyway to the

:32:33.:32:34.

Scottish Parliament. If it's to do with geography and sparse

:32:35.:32:36.

population, why does Wales do badly out of the Barnett formula and

:32:37.:32:38.

Scotland do well? I don't agree. It does! I don't agree. They do better

:32:39.:32:43.

than England out of the formula and that recognises that peripheral

:32:44.:32:49.

parts of the UK have different geographies and slightly different

:32:50.:32:52.

priorities when it comes to what they want to spend their money on.

:32:53.:32:55.

It also recognises that they should have the ability to switch spending

:32:56.:33:01.

if they don't need it in particular areas and they have a higher

:33:02.:33:05.

priority in others. That was the essence of the Barnett formula. It

:33:06.:33:09.

gave them more flexibility and more abilities to switch. All right,

:33:10.:33:17.

thank you. It's a busy day for you, but at least you don't have to worry

:33:18.:33:20.

about repositioning the nuclear submarines! Let's go to Glasgow. I

:33:21.:33:28.

said we would speak to Kevin McCabe of the Observer. He backed the yes

:33:29.:33:35.

campaign. Why did you lose? Hello, say that again. Why did you lose? I

:33:36.:33:48.

think the stampede over the last ten days of the four horsemen of the

:33:49.:33:53.

British establishment coming north, spreading scare stories... I thought

:33:54.:34:01.

it was the three Stooges! If you include big business, corporate

:34:02.:34:04.

interest, the banks, Westminster, the massed ranks of the endless

:34:05.:34:12.

-based media, they were spending - spreading a compelling story for

:34:13.:34:15.

people in Scotland watching the pennies, people with a new mortgage

:34:16.:34:19.

trying to find a deposit, a couple of children preschool who perhaps

:34:20.:34:25.

had espoused sympathy for nationalism and independents in the

:34:26.:34:29.

last 18 months, but in the secrecy and the quietness of the polling

:34:30.:34:34.

booth began to consider things. I think also the Nationalists were

:34:35.:34:44.

always climbing down escalator, basically. They had started off with

:34:45.:34:53.

a deficit of 25 to 30 points. 22. They had glimpsed Eden over the

:34:54.:34:57.

horizon about ten days ago. There was always going to be a tall order.

:34:58.:35:01.

I think there were still questions about currency and it's all very

:35:02.:35:08.

well for us and the chattering classes and the political classes to

:35:09.:35:13.

talk about currency or dismissed concerns, but working men wondering

:35:14.:35:16.

what their pay packet will look like can be quite a compelling

:35:17.:35:20.

distraction. I always thought we called them the blethering classes

:35:21.:35:27.

in Scotland! I understand all that and I'm sure that played a role in

:35:28.:35:33.

the no vote being larger than most people thought it would be. But

:35:34.:35:37.

didn't we know the impact that that was having and yet right up to the

:35:38.:35:43.

end, most of the leaders of the yes campaign that time it worked pretty

:35:44.:35:47.

convincing to me that they thought they would win. Well, we've

:35:48.:35:55.

basically in new territory. Most of those people would have been

:35:56.:35:58.

veterans of multiparty elections and even some of the posters I spoke to

:35:59.:36:03.

in the last week were nursing some serious misgivings and wondering if

:36:04.:36:10.

they were going to be in 1992 situation again when they called

:36:11.:36:13.

finial Kinnock and he was beaten roundly. - Neil Kinnock. One of the

:36:14.:36:19.

things was the sheer scale of numbers. They had never been in this

:36:20.:36:25.

territory before with an expected 80% plus turnout. They were looking

:36:26.:36:29.

at margins of error. With the best will in the world, no matter how

:36:30.:36:34.

good the strategists were on either side, it was new territory. One

:36:35.:36:38.

thing the Nationalists have always been good at is espousing optimism,

:36:39.:36:43.

always talking about hope. They were much more visible throughout the

:36:44.:36:48.

campaign than the no side. Perhaps there were some people on the

:36:49.:36:52.

national side who were a little more seduced by the visible signs of

:36:53.:36:57.

optimism and confidence and what we were going to do than was perhaps

:36:58.:37:02.

the case. That palpably was the case. Where does the independence

:37:03.:37:13.

movement go from here? It's a very interesting question. Alex Salmond,

:37:14.:37:19.

as you know, has been talking about independence being off the table for

:37:20.:37:23.

a generation. However, that's not what I'm hearing up here. The four

:37:24.:37:30.

council areas where the yes vote held up were amongst the most poor,

:37:31.:37:36.

the ones with the most problems of social deprivation. These are major

:37:37.:37:41.

Labour areas. The Nationalists would not have achieved anything like a

:37:42.:37:49.

45% vote if it hadn't been for the wholesale defection of tens of

:37:50.:37:53.

thousands of Labour voters. Therein lies a massive problem for the

:37:54.:37:57.

Labour Party in Scotland. A year after the Westminster elections, we

:37:58.:38:01.

have the Holyrood elections. Thousands of Labour voters who were

:38:02.:38:07.

made to feel like ghosts and demonised in their own party may

:38:08.:38:11.

choose then to visit some replies all on the Scottish Labour Party.

:38:12.:38:17.

That would probably lead to a second consecutive overall SNP majority. If

:38:18.:38:22.

the parties of the union do not deliver the full extent of their

:38:23.:38:26.

promises of greater devolved powers, many in the SNP, I suspect, will see

:38:27.:38:32.

that as a mandate, along with the fact that 1.6 million people voted

:38:33.:38:36.

for independence last night. They'll see that as a mandate for calling

:38:37.:38:41.

for another referendum and that's a problem that Ed Miliband, David

:38:42.:38:45.

Cameron. Ed Miliband has a problem with what has happened to the Labour

:38:46.:38:49.

Party in Scotland. Is it not a problem for Scotland, too, that it

:38:50.:38:57.

gets locked up in referendums and the constitutional issue takes up

:38:58.:39:02.

all the energy when what is needed is energy for economic growth, jobs,

:39:03.:39:09.

anti-poverty policies, child poverty strategies. Isn't there a danger

:39:10.:39:13.

that constitutional matters overshadow everything else? Yeah,

:39:14.:39:17.

there is a degree of that, Andrew, but you know what else? Fashion all

:39:18.:39:22.

politicians, careerist politicians, which Westminster is full of these

:39:23.:39:27.

days, not to mention a lot of Holyrood, they hate the fact, and

:39:28.:39:32.

they are scared, a lot of these people were scared to their very

:39:33.:39:37.

foundations because of what happened in Scotland in the last 18 months.

:39:38.:39:41.

There was a transferrin is, if you like, of political know-how and

:39:42.:39:48.

politics taken out of the ivory towers, the gilded chambers of

:39:49.:39:52.

Holyrood and Westminster and onto the streets. The last thing they

:39:53.:39:55.

would want is for this to happen again. I've seen a lot of people on

:39:56.:40:00.

both sides energised and politicised and that means tens of thousands

:40:01.:40:05.

more people now have the tools and the information and the ability to

:40:06.:40:10.

obtain that information, to scrutinise the doings of the elected

:40:11.:40:16.

masters to a greater degree than was previously apparent. Thank you for

:40:17.:40:19.

that. It is clear that although you didn't get the result you wanted,

:40:20.:40:24.

Scottish politics will not be the same again, or even Scottish

:40:25.:40:28.

society. Thank you for joining us. What did you make of that? Kevin or

:40:29.:40:35.

your Gilbert and Sullivan interviewed with Michael Fallon?

:40:36.:40:39.

Only the British Conservative Party in its present state could bring you

:40:40.:40:43.

such an Op Urreta as they are now going to. The obvious answer is we

:40:44.:40:47.

will sort out the Scottish question and then we will get together with

:40:48.:40:53.

the other parties and sort out the bigger English question. Maybe David

:40:54.:40:56.

Cameron's backbenchers won't let him do that. They can be fetid. -

:40:57.:41:05.

defeated. What will the Lib Dems do if the coalition? It's quite

:41:06.:41:09.

possible there is no proposition to go with Labour or the Liberal

:41:10.:41:15.

Democrats. Relying upon a whole lot of Cross backbenchers is not his

:41:16.:41:19.

best option. Nevertheless, that seems to be the way he's playing it.

:41:20.:41:26.

I greatly enjoyed going through that with Michael Fallon, but he has to

:41:27.:41:32.

make this thing work. He seemed to suggest the solution would be found

:41:33.:41:37.

in seven months. This is one of this you just constitutional shifts. This

:41:38.:41:42.

is the sort of thing countries spend years on. The problem David Cameron

:41:43.:41:48.

has now got, he's got from now until the election, cross voters in

:41:49.:41:51.

England, Nigel Farage this morning stirring it up, he has to produce

:41:52.:41:56.

something that looks like it can balance out the devolution offered

:41:57.:41:59.

to Scotland within seven months. I don't think you can. He has to do a

:42:00.:42:05.

lot of smoke and mirrors to make it look like he's taking it seriously.

:42:06.:42:10.

It's clear that a no result, although it removes the existential

:42:11.:42:14.

threat to the British state for now, raises a whole lot of other issues

:42:15.:42:18.

as well that have yet to be resolved. We've already talked about

:42:19.:42:22.

the extra powers that will be default to Scotland. It's not

:42:23.:42:26.

exactly clear what they will be. Labour and Conservative don't agree

:42:27.:42:29.

on how much income tax will be devolved. We do know the timetable

:42:30.:42:37.

as outlined by Gordon Brown. What about the detail?

:42:38.:42:44.

Holyrood will already gained some new powers from the Scotland act of

:42:45.:42:49.

2012, which will mean that in 2016 Edinburgh will have the power to

:42:50.:42:54.

vary income tax by 10p and borrow more money. However there is

:42:55.:42:58.

currently disagreement over how much further Westminster should go. The

:42:59.:43:03.

Conservatives want to see Scotland given complete power over income tax

:43:04.:43:08.

and possibly a share of VAT receipts. Labour would vary the

:43:09.:43:13.

amount income tax can be changed from 10p to 15p as well as default

:43:14.:43:19.

thing other areas such as housing benefit. The Liberal Democrats are

:43:20.:43:30.

in favour of a federal United Kingdom and they would give Scotland

:43:31.:43:32.

further control over taxation, including inheritance tax, capital

:43:33.:43:34.

gains tax and income tax. However, as David Cameron indicated this

:43:35.:43:36.

morning, it's not just Scotland that could see a power change. The Prime

:43:37.:43:41.

Minister said he wants to see a fair and balanced settlement with only

:43:42.:43:44.

English MPs being allowed to decide on English laws in Parliament.

:43:45.:43:50.

Conservative MPs were vocal this morning, calling for more English

:43:51.:43:55.

devolution. So was Nigel Farage. Labour's spokespeople were thin on

:43:56.:43:59.

the ground. Eventually we got this from Ed Miliband. We will also meet

:44:00.:44:04.

the desire for change across England, Wales and the whole of the

:44:05.:44:09.

UK. Devolution is not just a good idea for Scotland and Wales, it is a

:44:10.:44:13.

good idea for England and Northern Ireland, as it is already. It's also

:44:14.:44:20.

the case, friends, that we must meet the first change in reforming the of

:44:21.:44:26.

our country and who it works for. Gordon Brown only got a passing

:44:27.:44:30.

mention in that speech. The Deputy Prime Minister was also pressing for

:44:31.:44:34.

a new agreement for England and the rest of the UK. We need to address

:44:35.:44:40.

this huge missing bit of the jigsaw, which is England. For far too long,

:44:41.:44:44.

far too many decisions have been taken on by half of the towns,

:44:45.:44:50.

villages, cities and counties of England by Westminster and Whitehall

:44:51.:44:55.

and we need to release that grip of Westminster and Whitehall which has

:44:56.:44:58.

stifled governments across England for too long. I see today is the

:44:59.:45:03.

beginning of the process, not the end, where we reaffirm what unites

:45:04.:45:09.

us. Nigel Farage has also been getting stuck into the debate this

:45:10.:45:12.

morning, there's a surprise, demanding a better deal for

:45:13.:45:17.

England. I'm sorry, quite honestly, the English taxpayer has been very

:45:18.:45:21.

patient, very quiet through this. We spent as a nation ?1600 a head more

:45:22.:45:26.

on every Scot than we do on every English person. The Barnett formula

:45:27.:45:31.

is should be debated openly in the House of Commons. Let's get the

:45:32.:45:33.

country involved. OK, let's talk to James Landale in

:45:34.:45:44.

Downing Street. When was it decided that English devolution would now go

:45:45.:45:49.

in tandem with Scottish devolution? I think it has been in the minds of

:45:50.:45:53.

David Cameron and his advisers ever since they realise they have two say

:45:54.:45:56.

something to try and shift the debate within the referendum. It is,

:45:57.:46:00.

I have to say, Conservative policy, it was in the last manifesto so it

:46:01.:46:06.

is nothing new for them. But I think this strategic decision to link

:46:07.:46:09.

Scottish devolution with English devolution was the new idea, simply

:46:10.:46:12.

because, on the one hand, it makes it more likely that it will happen

:46:13.:46:16.

but also politically it makes it hugely difficult for the Labour

:46:17.:46:19.

Party, and I think that would have been very attractive, not just to

:46:20.:46:22.

David Cameron but also to George Osborne, who I believe has had his

:46:23.:46:25.

hands all over the statement this morning. Crucially, because it now

:46:26.:46:29.

puts the onus on the Labour Party to agree some kind of extra power for

:46:30.:46:40.

English MPs, that means less power for Scottish MPs, and that means a

:46:41.:46:42.

future Labour government would find it harder to get its legislation

:46:43.:46:45.

through. So, a huge challenge for Ed Miliband in the months ahead, as all

:46:46.:46:47.

the parties come together and they try to agree some kind of procedure,

:46:48.:46:51.

some kind of rule that they can all agree with and have some draft

:46:52.:46:55.

legislation by January, which is a very fast timetable that the Prime

:46:56.:47:01.

Minister has said. Does Mr Cameron's concept of English

:47:02.:47:06.

devolution involve any more than English votes for English laws?

:47:07.:47:10.

Well, today he was very specific, he said... He also said the same would

:47:11.:47:19.

be true in Northern Ireland and Wales. The key question is, what

:47:20.:47:23.

exactly would they be voting on? There is a difference between an

:47:24.:47:27.

indicative vote that allows English MPs to express their opinion, then

:47:28.:47:31.

there is colourful example, English MPs voting on the detailed of the

:47:32.:47:36.

legislation, maybe by setting up a special grand committee, and then

:47:37.:47:39.

there is the other end of the spectrum, essentially them voting on

:47:40.:47:44.

all English legislation entirely, effectively setting up an English

:47:45.:47:47.

parliament. I don't think they will go down that route. They will have

:47:48.:47:50.

to find a middle way some way that is enough to satisfy his Tory

:47:51.:47:54.

critics but enough that is sellable to the Labour Party, ultimately. I

:47:55.:48:00.

am joined now in the studio by Labour MP, Diane Abbott, she follows

:48:01.:48:04.

me everywhere. And by the Conservative back venture, Bernard

:48:05.:48:09.

Jenkin, in Westminster. Bernard, did the Prime Minister jumped the gun

:48:10.:48:17.

and trash the British constitution on the basis of a rogue poll? I

:48:18.:48:24.

don't think it's important. I don't know whether making these extra

:48:25.:48:27.

promises at the last minute had any effect on the pole. It was not as

:48:28.:48:32.

good a win as we wanted, and as a result of this whole exercise we do

:48:33.:48:35.

have the whole British constitution in something of a state of flux. The

:48:36.:48:40.

question is where we go from here. Would answering the West Lothian

:48:41.:48:43.

question in the way the Prime Minister has indicated, a newish

:48:44.:48:47.

votes for English laws, would that be enough for you on English

:48:48.:48:52.

devolution? I don't think it will be enough for English MPs. The

:48:53.:48:55.

principle should be, if we want the United Kingdom to survive, we have

:48:56.:48:59.

to have the four components of the union treated the same. So what is

:49:00.:49:03.

good for Scottish MPs in Holyrood has to be good for English MPs at

:49:04.:49:09.

Westminster. We should be able to decide our only just lesion in

:49:10.:49:14.

Westminster. The Mackay commission, which was set up to look at this,

:49:15.:49:18.

was a bit watery on the subject, and that's not good enough. What we want

:49:19.:49:21.

is to be able to control our own legislation in the same way as the

:49:22.:49:25.

Scots controlled the legislation, the Welsh, and Northern Ireland.

:49:26.:49:30.

What this envisages is a proper federal system, and the money has

:49:31.:49:36.

got to be decided on an equal and fair basis, as well. Just before I

:49:37.:49:42.

bring in Diane Abbott, can I just checked on a proper federal system?

:49:43.:49:46.

With that mean we have a Prime Minister for the United Kingdom and

:49:47.:49:52.

a First Minister for England? Yes. I see, quite radical change. You said

:49:53.:49:58.

to me last night on the results programme, Scotland Decides, that

:49:59.:50:01.

you thought the time would come for English votes for English laws, but

:50:02.:50:07.

that would be right. My view, and it is a personal view, is it is not

:50:08.:50:12.

intellectually coherent if the further devolution to Holyrood is

:50:13.:50:16.

going to mean anything to continue to have Scottish MPs voting on

:50:17.:50:23.

reserved matters. It is not your party bus like policy though, is it?

:50:24.:50:28.

I am not sure what my party's policy is. We are very reluctant to see

:50:29.:50:34.

Scottish MPs not allowed to vote, but the danger is if we don't arrive

:50:35.:50:39.

with a deal with the Tories on this devolution settlement promised by

:50:40.:50:42.

Gordon Brown before the general election, the real people who will

:50:43.:50:46.

suffer will be the Labour Party in Scotland, because the SNP will be

:50:47.:50:49.

running around saying look, we told you it was all meaningless. Bernard

:50:50.:50:53.

Jenkin, if we had a First Minister Finland, as we have the Scotland and

:50:54.:50:58.

Wales and Northern Ireland, would it have its own parliament and where

:50:59.:51:02.

would it be? No, I think the two days a week you have a Jewish MPs

:51:03.:51:07.

sitting as the English Parliament in the Palace of Westminster. Deciding

:51:08.:51:14.

-- you have English MPs sitting as being this Parliament. Supposing we

:51:15.:51:20.

devolve taxation powers to Scotland, are we seriously one day

:51:21.:51:23.

to have another Labour Chancellor, who might be Scottish, in his or her

:51:24.:51:27.

budget, setting out what the tax rates should be for people in

:51:28.:51:31.

England, but not able to set his or her own tax rate in Scotland? This

:51:32.:51:36.

is the West Lothian question getting more and more significant as more

:51:37.:51:39.

and more powers are devolved. This is a very Tory tradition, that we

:51:40.:51:43.

finish off other people's reforms that we opposed to start with. We

:51:44.:51:49.

opposed the reform act in 1832, we finished it with 1867, all male

:51:50.:51:53.

suffrage, and then suffrage for women later on. We opposed

:51:54.:51:58.

devolution. Well, we have devolution in Scotland and Wales and Northern

:51:59.:52:01.

Ireland now, we have to finish the job and have proper devolution in

:52:02.:52:06.

England as well full stop now you are stealing the Liberal

:52:07.:52:10.

Democrats's policy, which has always been in favour of this. I think the

:52:11.:52:13.

liberal democrats should come along with us on this. Is there any sign,

:52:14.:52:21.

Diane Abbott, that the Labour Party is thinking of a credible, serious,

:52:22.:52:25.

radical devolution policy for England? To be quite honest, the

:52:26.:52:29.

proposals we are talking about today were drawn up by Gordon Brown in the

:52:30.:52:36.

heat of what appeared to be a losing referendum battle. It's called

:52:37.:52:40.

panic. You can call it that, I couldn't possibly comment, but if

:52:41.:52:47.

the Labour Party is seen to not deliver on what Gordon Brown

:52:48.:52:51.

promised, we will pay a price. Bernard Jenkin, can I come back to

:52:52.:52:56.

you in the final minute? Your proposal for a federation is

:52:57.:52:59.

interesting but I propose to you that cannot be achieved in the

:53:00.:53:03.

short-term, that is a massive redrawing of the British

:53:04.:53:06.

constitution and would take years? Actually, we can organise the

:53:07.:53:10.

English vote for English laws without any UK override through our

:53:11.:53:13.

own standing orders and procedures. That could be done in a week. That

:53:14.:53:18.

does not create a federation. The question as to whether we should

:53:19.:53:22.

having this department and English ministers, that can evolve over

:53:23.:53:25.

time, let's not do that a rush and let's think about that. But the

:53:26.:53:29.

point is English votes for English laws has consequences for Whitehall.

:53:30.:53:33.

How could you have English MPs determining English laws but not

:53:34.:53:36.

able to hold accountable direct to them the ministers who are

:53:37.:53:40.

implementing those policies? It is a nonsense. Final word, briefly,

:53:41.:53:46.

Diane. Mo I respect Bernard Jenkin, but this is madness. Labour MPs are

:53:47.:53:50.

trying to unite behind Ed Miliband, particularly when we find out what

:53:51.:53:55.

our precise policies are. I am trying to save the union, because if

:53:56.:53:58.

we don't have the competence of settlement across the United

:53:59.:54:03.

Kingdom, Alex Salmond will be back having another row with Westminster

:54:04.:54:05.

and he will have another referendum, we have one last chance to save the

:54:06.:54:10.

union. I thought that just happened yesterday, but never mind, Bernard

:54:11.:54:12.

Jenkin, thank you for joining us, and Diane Abbott as well. It was a

:54:13.:54:16.

momentous night, not just in Scotland but for the whole of the

:54:17.:54:21.

Kingdom. Here is a reminder of how the events of the last 24 hours

:54:22.:54:26.

unfolded. It is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to take Scotland's

:54:27.:54:27.

future into Scotland's hands. The BBC's forecast now is that

:54:28.:55:33.

Scotland has voted no to independence. CHEERING

:55:34.:55:47.

No, 194,638. Scotland has, by majority, decided

:55:48.:55:59.

not, at this stage, to become an independent country. I accept that

:56:00.:56:02.

verdict of the people. DRAMATIC MUSIC people who are

:56:03.:56:23.

disengaged from politics have turned out in large numbers.

:56:24.:56:35.

Just as the people of Scotland will have more power over their affairs,

:56:36.:56:42.

so it follows that the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland

:56:43.:56:43.

must have a bigger say over theirs. I will finish the Daily Politics

:56:44.:57:03.

with Peter Hennessy. What an extraordinary 24 hours, we have

:57:04.:57:06.

never lived through 24 hours like this. Yesterday at this time, we

:57:07.:57:10.

were worried that the United Kingdom might be dissolved by this time on

:57:11.:57:14.

Friday. It hasn't. We wake up, we find ourselves in this vast

:57:15.:57:17.

constitutional building site without a plan, without even the sketchiest

:57:18.:57:22.

blueprint, and what we really need is to pause and to think, and to

:57:23.:57:26.

work out how to design something that fits all these multiplicity of

:57:27.:57:30.

needs. It has to be a royal commission or a convention of some

:57:31.:57:34.

kind. That doesn't meet the Gordon Brown timetable though, does it?

:57:35.:57:39.

There is a kind of mania abroad, for a country that is supposed to be

:57:40.:57:42.

phlegmatic and the mature is democracy in the world, we have gone

:57:43.:57:46.

slightly bonkers. I know there are many flaws in our system, of course

:57:47.:57:51.

you are a member of it, the House of Lords would be one that comes to

:57:52.:57:57.

mind... You are too kind! I know that, but politicians, right, left

:57:58.:58:00.

and centre, are they not being rather cavalier with something that

:58:01.:58:04.

has evolved over the years and wake up with a good idea and want to rip

:58:05.:58:08.

it apart? They are distilling their own frenzy, each one is feeding off

:58:09.:58:13.

the other, it is time for a bit of calmness, reason and a bit of

:58:14.:58:18.

careful R and D, both intellectual and political. I suppose what Gordon

:58:19.:58:22.

Brown was talking about is not as easy to come by as he was implying,

:58:23.:58:25.

but in the end that might be what needs to happen. You need eight

:58:26.:58:31.

consensus for long-lasting constitutional change, otherwise it

:58:32.:58:37.

won't insure. We have a genius, we Brits, for smart muddling through.

:58:38.:58:40.

This is muddling through without the Smart. When I interviewed you for my

:58:41.:58:47.

documentary, you were worried about the union now, but that fear in your

:58:48.:58:50.

mind has gone away for now. Just now. I do worry if we squeak out of

:58:51.:58:56.

the European Union in the next ten years, it will reopen the Scottish

:58:57.:58:59.

question, because they will vote to stay in the EU. In ten years time, I

:59:00.:59:04.

am not a pessimist, we could be out of the EU and without Scotland. We

:59:05.:59:07.

have to be very careful how we tread. Peter Hennessy, thank you

:59:08.:59:10.

very much, a pleasure to be with you.

:59:11.:59:15.

Thanks to David Aaronovitch, Anne McElvoy,

:59:16.:59:18.

I'll be back on BBC One this Sunday morning at 11.00am ,

:59:19.:59:23.

when the Sunday Politics will be live from the Labour party

:59:24.:59:26.

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