Browse content similar to 27/10/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:37. | :00:45. | |
My Lords, they have voted, contents 289, not contents, 272. | :00:46. | :00:54. | |
Unelected peers are accused of committing | :00:55. | :00:55. | |
a "constitutional outrage" as they frustrate the will | :00:56. | :00:57. | |
of the elected Commons on cuts to tax credits. | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
George Osborne says the Lords will have to be "dealt with" - but how? | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
The Chancellor also says he's in listening mode | :01:04. | :01:05. | |
But can he save face - and money - whilst softening the impact | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
Jeremy Corbyn cedes some control of the Scottish Labour Party - | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
can it help turn around the party's fortunes? | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
We'll be talking to the party's leader in Scotland, Kezia Dugdale. | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
And it may have an appalling human rights record, but is Britain's | :01:26. | :01:28. | |
relationship with Saudi Arabia too important to put at risk? | :01:29. | :01:36. | |
All that in the next hour and with us for the whole of the programme, | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
the journalist and writer Toby Young. | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
Someone who loves causing outrage, constitutional or otherwise. Welcome | :01:47. | :01:48. | |
to the programme. Good afternoon. In the past few minutes, the | :01:49. | :01:57. | |
Chancellor has faced the Commons, and the first time since last | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
night's defeat, at Treasury questions. Let's listen to some of | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
the exchanges. On five occasions in the last decade have the House of | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
Lords blocked a statutory incident, never on a financial matter, and we | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
had a whole range of opinions from Lord Butler to constitutional | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
experts telling us yesterday that this was unprecedented. It is | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
something we are going to have to address, the Prime Minister has made | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
that very clear and that is what we are going to do, in order to make | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
that very clear and that is what we sure the elected House of Commons is | :02:32. | :02:33. | |
responsible for the tax and spend decisions that affect the people of | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
this country. This is not a constitutional matter. They will | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
lose ?1300 a year. Given what happened in the other place last | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
night, can I reassure the Chancellor that if he brings forward proposals | :02:47. | :02:55. | |
to reverse the cuts to tax credits fairly and in fall, he will not be | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
attacked by this side of the House. Indeed... Indeed, he will be | :02:59. | :03:05. | |
applauded. But can he assure us that whatever proposals he brings | :03:06. | :03:12. | |
forward, he will not support any that an independent assessments | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
demonstrates will cause any child to be forced to live below the poverty | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
line? John McDonnell ending that piece. | :03:22. | :03:22. | |
With me now are the Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary Owen Smith and | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
David Davies, what do you want to George Osborne to do precisely in | :03:26. | :03:34. | |
his Autumn Statement to mitigate the impact of the tax credit cuts? | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
Directly or indirectly to stage this change. The problem is what George | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
wants to do is to have the increasing minimum wage, | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
wants to do is to have the wage, take on the burden from the | :03:48. | :03:54. | |
taxpayers. The trouble was, all of the | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
taxpayers. The trouble was, all of national minimum wage does not get | :03:59. | :04:01. | |
to its proper peak until the end of the parliament. Just put them in | :04:02. | :04:02. | |
step, it is simple, the parliament. Just put them in | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
would be satisfied and you think your colleagues would be satisfied? | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
Broadly, yes, that's right. Do you agree with that, or do you want | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
something more radical, some sort of reversal in the tax credit cuts | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
themselves, not just an extra bit of money or a staging of the transition | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
to mitigate the impact of those cuts? We have argued for repeal of | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
them and we will be voting against in a couple of hours' time for | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
repeal and the reason is, David is right, it will mitigate part of the | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
change, even if George Osborne were to raise the national minimum wage | :04:42. | :04:48. | |
to ?9 20, his excellent ambition, by 2020, even if you were to do that | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
immediately, people on average would be worse off as a result of the | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
cuts. It won't offset the amount of money the average family is set to | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
lose as a result of the tax credit changes. Throw in the childcare | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
allowance, throw in the personal tax allowance, add them up and they will | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
still be, on average, worse off, so it is a bit of smoke and mirrors. So | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
there is a divergences in what you want to see changed. I rest my case | :05:14. | :05:21. | |
that it is complicated. This is a very complicated system and we have | :05:22. | :05:24. | |
got some fine tuning to do but the simple truth is the staging will | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
deal with most of the problem. Was this really the way to do it, to | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
take on George Osborne and the Government in this way? I mean, he | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
had already said, or rather he had sent out people representing him to | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
say he was in listening mode. Wouldn't it have been better to hear | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
what he had to say? That was quite late on. I voted against this back | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
in September and the difficulty was we had a statutory instrument. It is | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
very technical again, but it is put to the House of Commons in take it | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
or leave it form. If you really want to reform it, there is a | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
Parliamentary procedure, an act of Parliament and you go through | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
reform. You don't say, here it is and I will think about it after the | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
event. It is too difficult important and complex. That was a mistake, a | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
tactical and strategic error, if you are just looking at it from up a | :06:18. | :06:19. | |
little Parliamentary terms from George Osborne's perspective, to | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
give the House of Lords room to say this is not a piece of legislation | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
that we are forced to vote on because it is a money matter, we can | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
take it as a welfare matter. It wasn't announced in the manifesto, | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
we can vote against it in all good conscience. The Conservatives did | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
say in the manifesto that they would find ?12 billion of savings from the | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
working age welfare bill, so I don't think you can say it wasn't flagged | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
at all. This is what the Lords will say. It was clearly right to get | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
this change through as quickly as possible because George Osborne need | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
to reduce the welfare bill if he is to meet his deficit target of | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
bringing the books into balance in this Parliament. It may have been, | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
in retrospect, quicker to include it in a Finance Bill but I think that | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
is because he didn't anticipate that the House of Lords would behave so | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
outrageously. And this judgment on his part? -- a misjudgement. And | :07:16. | :07:22. | |
this judgment perhaps, but he probably didn't think they House of | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
Lords would try and supplant the Labour Party as Her Majesty's | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
opposition, which it effectively had to do because the Labour Party has | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
abdicated from that role. Toby, one issue here, this is not coming into | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
effect until April, there was plenty of time to take it through. You | :07:39. | :07:46. | |
probably would have tried to have an end a Finance Bill. That is my job. | :07:47. | :07:55. | |
Frank Field motion on Thursday only asks the Government to reconsider | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
the impact, and that is what they have agreed to do in the Autumn | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
Statement, so why ask them to do something they have agreed to do? | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
They have not said anything specific. Stage it, is what I am | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
asking. You will find a number of Tory MPs standing up in that debate | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
talking about the sort of thing they want to see, it should be productive | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
for a Government. It seems needlessly rebellious given that the | :08:21. | :08:23. | |
Chancellor has conceded and will reconsider the impact of the changes | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
on the low paid in the Autumn Statement. This is the House of | :08:27. | :08:33. | |
Commons, it is our job to represent our constituents. Some of them will | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
lose quite a lot of money out of this, people who can't afford to, so | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
it is not just, yes, we will do something, it is what you are going | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
to do, what the detail is, what the grand strategy is. You will hear on | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
Thursday Tories and Labour, I suspect, all parties, we want to see | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
the deficit dealt with in this Parliament and there are ways to do | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
this which don't have that effect and that is the proper way to do it. | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
Toby, let me put a question to you, because in the end, George Osborne | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
and it seems you are blaming the Lords, calling it a constitutional | :09:08. | :09:10. | |
outrage, but actually, this is what a lot of Tory MPs felt, they had | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
stood up and made it very clear that they had a real problem with this | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
tax credit cuts because of the impact on their constituents. We | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
heard from David Willetts, even the Sun newspaper was criticising the | :09:23. | :09:25. | |
Government, so in the end, the Lords did the deed but it was some people | :09:26. | :09:32. | |
feel what a lot of people felt. If Conservative MPs felt they could not | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
support this particular statue statutory instrument, they had three | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
opportunities to vote against it, which is why it is outrageous that | :09:44. | :09:46. | |
the unelected chamber has rejected it. All bills are voted on three | :09:47. | :09:53. | |
times before they get to the House of Lords, it is another bogus | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
argument. The House of Lords spoke for the country yesterday and 60% of | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
people in Britain think George Osborne has got this wrong and we | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
should not be penalising hard-working people for working | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
hard, not balancing the books on their backs, which is why the House | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
of Lords was dead right to reject this and the constitutional crisis | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
is a total smoke screen. The House of Lords didn't straightforwardly | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
rejected, they just said let's see if they plan to ameliorate it impact | :10:21. | :10:23. | |
the first three years of its light, make the reforms to the tax credit | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
system but don't let them kicking for three years, effectively nearer | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
the election and have a greater penalty on the Conservatives. Would | :10:33. | :10:35. | |
George Osborne be wrong to lessen the impact and should he stick to | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
his guns? I think if he can find the way of meeting his deficit reduction | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
target, finding those savings in the welfare budget that his party said | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
they would find... And ameliorate the impact on those hardest hit, of | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
course, but it is easier said than done. Do you think politically he | :10:53. | :10:59. | |
should just stay firm, which is what some people are advising? It depends | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
what you mean by state firm. He has already said he is going to look at | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
way of ameliorating the impact on the hardest hit in the Autumn | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
Statement and I don't suppose they will introduce another statutory | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
instrument or include these measures in the Finance Bill until after the | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
Autumn Statement. Which is the spot academics smart way to do it but the | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
true that the moment is we don't know -- the smart way to do. The | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
Treasury have never publish the interim figures and I have asked | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
them several times. If we have those numbers, we can make a proper | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
judgment and at the moment, we can't. There is one thing from a | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
timing point of view and I will come to you in a moment, want ministers | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
to delay the tax credit cuts or put in some sort of transitional stage. | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
Over three years or in three years' time, that will be a year until the | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
next General Election which will be then when the next cuts coming, it | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
will be very difficult your party... I don't read the motion that way, I | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
read it as changing year by year. In other words, each time the national | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
minimum wage or the living wage goes up, you cut back on tax credits a | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
bit more. That is why it is complex, but it is year by year, you can have | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
a changing every year, that is one of the difficulties, but that | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
doesn't put it all in for the General Election. John McDonnell | :12:17. | :12:19. | |
said Labour would not make political capital out of this if George | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
Osborne changed his mind. So we are not going to hear any criticism or | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
mocking from the Labour Party since George Osborne has said he is going | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
to do something about it? All you are going to hear from me is | :12:32. | :12:34. | |
delighted that George Osborne has effectively admitted that he does | :12:35. | :12:37. | |
need to revisit these plans, that it is going to hit the hard-working | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
people of this country much harder than people had appreciated, that | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
George Osborne and David Cameron lied to the British public when they | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
said they weren't going to do this before the last election. That is | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
why the House of Lords felt so strongly that they were able to make | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
this statement. Is that making political capital out of it in the | :12:57. | :12:59. | |
way the John McDonnell said he wouldn't? I am stating the truth. | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
When a Prime Minister says on network television that he wasn't | :13:04. | :13:06. | |
going to do something and then does it the other side... You are shaking | :13:07. | :13:14. | |
your head. He was talking about child benefit. No, child tax | :13:15. | :13:21. | |
credits. Did he lie? Do not talk over each other. David Davis, did he | :13:22. | :13:28. | |
live? I don't think so, one of the problems was the Government started | :13:29. | :13:31. | |
eliminating too many things and left a very small number of things to | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
cut, that is where we ended up, but... Like pensions? I would prefer | :13:36. | :13:46. | |
him to cut are things like free travel for pensioners. A lot of | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
pensioners these days are quite well. We will have this conversation | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
another time. Now the Mayor of London Boris | :13:55. | :13:56. | |
Johnson not with George Osborne, his rival | :13:57. | :13:57. | |
for the Conservative leadership - And he resisted the opportunity to | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
have a sly dig at the Chancellor when he was asked about | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
the tax credits defeat. I think George Osborne is absolutely | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
right to want to reform a system that basically subsidises | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
huge corporations, to the tune of billions | :14:13. | :14:14. | |
of pounds of taxpayers' money. He is right to want | :14:15. | :14:21. | |
to reform a system because what happens is they get | :14:22. | :14:28. | |
their tax credits withdrawn as soon as they earn just a little | :14:29. | :14:31. | |
bit more, and I think it is wrong of the House | :14:32. | :14:34. | |
of Lords to get in the way of the sovereign expression | :14:35. | :14:40. | |
of the will of Parliament. We're joined now by the | :14:41. | :14:50. | |
Conservative MP Oliver Dowden, who, before the election, was one | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
of David Cameron's closest advisors Welcome back. You may have heard | :14:56. | :15:03. | |
David Davis talking about what he thinks the Chancellor should do, | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
what do you think he is going to do to mitigate the impact of these | :15:07. | :15:09. | |
cuts? I think the Chancellor has been very clear that first of all we | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
need to stick with this overall direction of tax credit reform. We | :15:14. | :15:16. | |
have to continue to reduce the deficit, both of which we promised | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
during the election campaign. We promised to cut ?12 billion worth | :15:22. | :15:24. | |
from welfare and get into a surplus but he has accepted there is a need | :15:25. | :15:26. | |
appropriate time to do that is but he has accepted there is a need | :15:27. | :15:36. | |
the Autumn Statement. You said he has been listening but he only acted | :15:37. | :15:37. | |
after the defeat last night. It is interesting, this discussion. | :15:38. | :15:47. | |
The measure was approved three times by the House of Commons than we had | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
the extraordinary spectre of the Liberal Democrats, remember | :15:51. | :15:53. | |
the extraordinary spectre of the fought against them in the election | :15:54. | :15:54. | |
campaign, won the argument on welfare, they were reduced to eight | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
MPs then welfare, they were reduced to eight | :15:59. | :16:01. | |
legitimacy to use their welfare, they were reduced to eight | :16:02. | :16:03. | |
the House of Commons to welfare, they were reduced to eight | :16:04. | :16:04. | |
something introduced by a majority welfare, they were reduced to eight | :16:05. | :16:06. | |
Government which was promised and clearly signalled | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
Government which was promised and campaign. Are you | :16:11. | :16:11. | |
Government which was promised and MPs were completely happy with the | :16:12. | :16:12. | |
tax credit proposals MPs were completely happy with the | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
opposition from people, from David MPs were completely happy with the | :16:18. | :16:20. | |
Davis to David Willets, two backbench MPs and the Sun newspaper, | :16:21. | :16:22. | |
that there backbench MPs and the Sun newspaper, | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
your own site? Of course there was reservation to | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
your own site? Of course there was properly debated in the House of | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
Commons. We debated and opposition Day motion, the points were | :16:34. | :16:43. | |
considered, but the considered view of the elected representatives, | :16:44. | :16:45. | |
people who were elected by the electorate to go and represent them | :16:46. | :16:47. | |
on matters of tax and spending, decided by a majority to endorse it | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
and then unelected peers representing two parties, brand to | :16:54. | :16:55. | |
be defeated in the last election chose to overturn it, and it is | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
he giving you? The Chancellor has he giving you? The Chancellor has | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
said all along he will listen, but he will not give in... Rightly or | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
wrongly he has been forced to give in, he has pretty much accepted | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
that. You will have to wait and see what he says in the Autumn | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
Statement. He has been clear that we have a problem here, and the problem | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
is that people on low pay have been paying tax on the minimum wage, | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
having it recycled through the welfare system and then used to | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
top-up their wages. So why doesn't he stick to his guns and take on the | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
House of Lords? I think you will find he is sticking to his guns, to | :17:34. | :17:45. | |
the principle that we have to reform tax credits. We cannot have this | :17:46. | :17:47. | |
crazy situation where spending has gone from ?6 billion to ?30 billion. | :17:48. | :17:50. | |
We need to deal with it and I think you will find he will deal with it. | :17:51. | :17:53. | |
He said he would not budge and David Cameron said, we think the changes | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
we have put forward are right, higher pay and lower taxes, but we | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
-- but he has accepted they have to do something so he is, to some | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
extent, not on the broad principle, going to have to give in and fold in | :18:06. | :18:08. | |
what he wanted to do because of the defeats. Again, you made the point, | :18:09. | :18:15. | |
which is that on tax credits we have a clear programme for reform. There | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
are questions about the transition which the Chancellor has said he | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
will address but on the fundamental principle, we promised to fight ?12 | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
billion of savings from welfare, ?4 billion from tax credits, we have | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
defined it from there because if we do not it will be cuts to spending | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
on health, maybe high taxes or Labour's position, which seems to be | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
carrying on borrowing forever. I don't think you will find the | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
Chancellor would embrace that. It was as a result of pressure put on | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
him, it seems he made a mistake in the light of what has happened. It | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
is a bruising defeat for the Chancellor personally, isn't it? As | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
I said, it is a defeat from the unelected house, the House of | :18:58. | :19:00. | |
Commons, the elected representatives, have endorsed him | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
on three occasions. This is a major problem that the unelected house is | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
designed to overturn us on a measure of tax and spend, going back to | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
principles of no taxation without representation. That is why the | :19:13. | :19:21. | |
problem comes from. If those unelected Labour and Liberal | :19:22. | :19:23. | |
Democrat peers had not voted against the Government, this would be law | :19:24. | :19:26. | |
now. But it is a bruising defeat all the same. He had a programme, he was | :19:27. | :19:29. | |
confident about it, he said he would not change, the Treasury were public | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
consistently in saying they would push ahead with this despite | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
resistance before last night from within the party, and he is having | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
to change tack. At a personal level, you know him, this is difficult for | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
him? Nobody wants to lose a vote in parliament, and that is what has | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
happened. As I said, it is a vote in the Lords, but I think you will find | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
the Chancellor remains absolutely committed to what we promised in our | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
election manifesto, which is to move from a low wage, high tax, high | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
welfare economy to a high wage, lower tax and lower welfare economy, | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
and the Chancellor will absolutely stick to that, and I would imagine | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
he is more determined than ever, seeing the way in which unelected | :20:13. | :20:20. | |
members of the House of Lords... Was he always intending to make changes | :20:21. | :20:23. | |
in the Autumn Statement? The Chancellor has said all along he | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
will listen to people and the appropriate moment to take on board | :20:27. | :20:29. | |
those concerns is the Autumn Statement. So he always had it in | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
mind that he would perhaps spend some money somewhere, ease the | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
transition to these tax credit cuts in the Autumn Statement? He, in your | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
mind, had already decided he would do that? Members of parliament | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
raised somebody to make concerned about transition measures. The | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
Chancellor said all along he would listen to those concerns, and I | :20:50. | :20:57. | |
think he will bring forward measures to deal with that. Right, do you | :20:58. | :21:00. | |
think, then, that he should have come out himself to say that more | :21:01. | :21:03. | |
clearly? He sent out his emissary is, if you like, at the weekend, we | :21:04. | :21:06. | |
heard from Nicky Morgan talking about this, would it have been | :21:07. | :21:09. | |
better if George Osborne himself had stood up and said, I am going to do | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
something? You saw him speaking in the house today... Know, before. The | :21:15. | :21:21. | |
House of Lords seemed pretty determined to abuse their powers to | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
frustrate the Government willy-nilly. There would not have | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
been any different if George had come out. We will never know, of | :21:29. | :21:31. | |
course, but do you think it would have been better for Tory MPs to | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
have heard George Osborne stand up and say, I will deal with this in | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
the Autumn Statement? I think we will see on Thursday, won't we? We | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
will see what happens with Frank Field's motion on Thursday. I think | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
it is unlikely. On that listening point, I remember being at the 1922 | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
committee where he stood in front of Conservative MPs last week and said | :21:56. | :21:58. | |
he was listening so it is not true to say he has not signalled he will | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
listen. Although that was not public, it was a private meeting. | :22:02. | :22:07. | |
What do you think this does to his leadership ambition? David Cameron, | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
I'm glad to say, has said he will remain Prime Minister until the | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
end... We all know what he has spoken about. Does it damage it for | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
him? What people will see is a Chancellor that is determined to | :22:21. | :22:23. | |
deliver on promises to reform welfare, and if we don't give it | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
now, we have rapid growth in wages, falling unemployment, and national | :22:29. | :22:31. | |
live in wage, future generations will not thank us for not grasping | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
the nettle of welfare reform. The Chancellor will grasp that metal and | :22:37. | :22:39. | |
people will thank him for it. The elections for the new leader of the | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
Conservative party are a very long way off. That is true. Thank you. | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
The question for today is, which celebrity peer was flown in | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
from New York to vote in last night's debate? | :22:54. | :23:01. | |
Was it Alan sugar, Julian Fellowes, Fluellen Benjamin or Andrew Lloyd | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
Webber? At the end of the show, Toby will | :23:06. | :23:06. | |
give us the correct answer. Now, the Government has said that | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
there are clear constitutional issues that they say will | :23:11. | :23:12. | |
"need to be dealt with" after the series of votes in the Lords last | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
night which included two defeats. The first vote last night was on the | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
Lib Dems' fatal motion rejecting the This was won comfortably by the | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
Government - just 99 voted in favour Next was an amendment proposed | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
by a crossbench peer, Baroness Meacher, to delay the cuts and send | :23:31. | :23:41. | |
the proposals back to the Commons On this, the Government suffered | :23:42. | :23:44. | |
its first defeat with the motion Finally, | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
peers voted on Labour's amendment to stop the cuts until the Government | :23:50. | :23:56. | |
designs a compensation scheme for This motion was also passed - | :23:57. | :23:59. | |
the Government losing narrowly with 289 votes for the motion | :24:00. | :24:06. | |
and 272 against. The Conservatives are well short | :24:07. | :24:13. | |
of a majority in the House of Lords with just 249 peers out | :24:14. | :24:16. | |
of a total of 816. The Lords have been increasingly | :24:17. | :24:19. | |
rebellious in recent years - the coalition Government suffered | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
almost 100 defeats in the Lords And the new Conservative Government | :24:24. | :24:26. | |
has already been defeated 19 times in the Lords in the five months | :24:27. | :24:34. | |
since the general election. But this is the first time | :24:35. | :24:40. | |
in 100 years that the second Chamber has voted down a financial package | :24:41. | :24:43. | |
backed by the Commons. Here's a taste of yesterday's debate | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
in the House of Lords. I have been to see the Chancellor | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
this morning at Number 11. And I can confirm that he would | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
listen very carefully were the House ..in the way that it is precedented | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
for us to do so. My motion clearly leaves the matter | :25:01. | :25:14. | |
in the hands of the elected House. The justification for | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
a delay is that the House of Commons will have a full-day debate on | :25:18. | :25:24. | |
these issues, as I said, on I understand that dozens | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
of Conservative backbenchers are urging the Chancellor to adjust | :25:28. | :25:29. | |
the tax credit reforms to protect Yes, there have been three votes | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
on tax credits in the House of Commons won by the Government, but | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
Conservative MPs, not me, say they did not have the information they | :25:36. | :25:46. | |
needed when they voted for the I hear that many | :25:47. | :25:49. | |
of them are now livid about this. The fact is there was a vote in | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
the other place last week, there was a clear majority and not a single | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
Conservative member voted in the The point is this was | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
a budgetary matter and budgetary matters are the prerogative of the | :26:02. | :26:09. | |
elected House, and that is a most This was designed to reduce | :26:10. | :26:12. | |
the budget deficit, which everybody agrees has to be | :26:13. | :26:15. | |
eliminated on all sides All those arguments pale | :26:16. | :26:18. | |
into insignificance when compared to the greater argument, the argument | :26:19. | :26:28. | |
that the general public, millions of people outside of this | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
House are considering today. That being statements given | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
during the course of the And, in particular, Mr Cameron, | :26:38. | :26:40. | |
who deliberately misled the British public, and the British public would | :26:41. | :26:55. | |
regard what he said now as a lie. It's not a constitutional crisis, | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
that is a fig leaf possibly disguising tensions in the Commons | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
between members of the Government. My Lords, we can be supportive of | :27:07. | :27:08. | |
the Government and give them what they did not ask for, financial | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
privilege, or we can be supportive instead of those three million | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
families facing letters at Christmas telling them on average they will | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
lose up to around ?1,300 a year. I say to the Government that these | :27:24. | :27:33. | |
proposals are morally indefensible. OTHER MEMBERS: | :27:34. | :27:39. | |
Hear, hear. It is clear to me | :27:40. | :27:40. | |
and I believe to very many others that these proposals blatantly | :27:41. | :27:46. | |
threaten damage to the lives A flavour of last night's debate | :27:47. | :27:48. | |
in the Lords Vernon Bognador, is talk of a | :27:49. | :27:59. | |
Paul Tyler Vernon Bognador, is talk of a | :28:00. | :28:13. | |
constitutional crisis over Vernon Bognador, is talk of a | :28:14. | :28:20. | |
problems, firstly with the Lords rejecting a financial | :28:21. | :28:20. | |
problems, firstly with the Lords which, as you said a few moments | :28:21. | :28:22. | |
ago, which, as you said a few moments | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
years. But secondly the question over whether the fact Labour and | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
Liberal Democrat peers outnumber the Conservatives enabled the Lords to | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
become no longer a revising chamber but an opposition chamber, which is | :28:36. | :28:38. | |
not appropriate for an unelected house. It is not appropriate, you | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
have changed what the basic role of the House of Lords is? The chance | :28:43. | :28:48. | |
bungled this. If he wanted to keep it as a financial measure he could | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
have, as David Davis said a few minutes ago here, he could have | :28:53. | :28:53. | |
amended the Finance Bill, which minutes ago here, he could have | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
would have remained firmly in the Commons, or introduce a tax credit | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
Amendment Bill, and it was made clear during our debate yesterday. | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
What he did was try to get a short cut to put it into secondary | :29:07. | :29:09. | |
legislation, which we had every right in the House of Lords, | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
repeated endlessly, it does not matter what the subject matter is, | :29:15. | :29:17. | |
we have every right to vote down and SI. How do you argue with that? It | :29:18. | :29:25. | |
is not unlawful for the Lords to reject regulations but they do it | :29:26. | :29:28. | |
rarely because the Parliament act, which restrict the powers of the | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
Lords, does not apply to regulations. When it was passed in | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
1911 there was very little secondary regulation. Precisely because the | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
Lords have this supreme power in regulations, they ought to use it as | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
an unelected chamber very, very rarely. It is a kind of nuclear | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
option and in fact, until recently, the 1960s, the Lord never rejected a | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
regulation, and since then very, very sparingly, and it makes it even | :29:55. | :30:06. | |
more serious when it is a financial matter on which the privilege of the | :30:07. | :30:08. | |
Commons is absolute. In terms of reviewing the Lords, this rapid | :30:09. | :30:11. | |
review that is being used by the Government, what are the options | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
available? There is talk of swamping the Lords of Conservative peers but | :30:15. | :30:17. | |
I think that would be foolish, especially when the Government is | :30:18. | :30:21. | |
thinking about reducing the size of the House of Commons. It would be | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
odd to reduce the elected chamber and increased the unelected | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
chamber! The right thing would be to put the convention into statutory | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
law so things were precluded -- so the Lords were precluded by law from | :30:35. | :30:37. | |
doing what they did last night. Do you support that and agree it would | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
not be a good look to swamp the House of Lords with 100, 150 Tory | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
peers to end the fact they do not have a majority? | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
It is the nuclear option. The difficulty the Government faces is | :30:51. | :30:57. | |
if it decides in to pass primary legislation to limit the Lords' | :30:58. | :31:03. | |
ability to delay legislation, to include statutory instruments, then | :31:04. | :31:06. | |
the Lords could then vote against that, they could use the Labour and | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
Lib Dem majority to vote against it and the Government would have to | :31:11. | :31:13. | |
invoke the Parliament act and the whole thing could take two years and | :31:14. | :31:16. | |
in the meantime, the Government's legislative programme for which it | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
has won a clear mandate, would be frustrated by the unelected chamber. | :31:22. | :31:24. | |
So do you think drastic action should be taken? I think it remains | :31:25. | :31:30. | |
to be seen. The Lords, it is not just what they did yesterday, last | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
week they breached the Salisbury Convention as well when they | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
rejected the proposal to end subsidies for onshore wind farms | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
which, again, was unprecedented. That is nonsense. The Salisbury | :31:44. | :31:46. | |
Convention was killed off in 2006. The joint committee said it was | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
obsolete and boathouses agreed. We keep hearing about the unelected | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
Lords. The coalition Government brought forward a Bill to deal with | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
this issue and as killing bag of loot Ken Clarke has said, the | :31:58. | :32:05. | |
obvious thing to do is, we have heard this, unelected chamber, | :32:06. | :32:08. | |
unelected chamber, Ken Clarke says the 2012 Bill, which has a large | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
majority in the House of Commons but was stymied by a combination of | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
Labour and Tory rebels... So are you effectively admitting you are taking | :32:19. | :32:20. | |
advantage of the situation to advance a Lib Dem proposal that was | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
rejected in the last parliament? It wasn't the Lib Dem proposal, it was | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
the coalition Government, supported by the Prime Minister and the | :32:29. | :32:31. | |
Chancellor. At the insistence of Nick Clegg. Not at all, it was in | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
the Conservative manifesto. We ought to be having a review of the | :32:37. | :32:39. | |
relationship between the two houses. This particular issue, as I | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
have just explained, is because entirely the Chancellor is trying to | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
take a short cut. OK. But we should use the opportunity to think better | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
about the relationship. Until the House of Lords becomes an elected | :32:53. | :32:55. | |
chamber, if that is what you want, how can you justify something that | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
was clearly in the manifesto, something like abolishing the | :33:02. | :33:04. | |
onshore wind farms. That is not the issue, the issue was | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
is it important that the House of Lords as the House of Commons to | :33:10. | :33:11. | |
think again, which is critical to the Constitution. The whole idea of | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
having two Houses of Parliament is they should be a second look on | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
issues of this sort. Is it an issue that Tory majority governments are | :33:21. | :33:23. | |
not necessarily used to having a case where they are not the majority | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
in the House of Lords? I understand that during Tony Blair's time, there | :33:28. | :33:30. | |
were quite a lot of the beats and there certainly have been fatal | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
motions in the past to kill of legislation is -- quite a lot of | :33:35. | :33:40. | |
defeats, but this is the real politic of having two houses on the | :33:41. | :33:43. | |
right to flex their muscles. Let's have a look... Let's forget about | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
what it is for, that is how it works. The Conservatives were very | :33:49. | :33:57. | |
careful not to abuse it when there was a Labour Government in order to | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
not undermine the validity of the House of Lords but Labour and Lib | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
Dems have not been like that. Because we have independent members | :34:08. | :34:10. | |
of the House of Lords who are not members of any party, one of the | :34:11. | :34:13. | |
successful amendments was a move by a crossbencher, Lady Meacher. But | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
your leader Tim Barron has described the Lords as wholly undemocratic you | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
are not democratically accountable, as you have said yourself, you want | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
an elected chamber, but you are frustrating the will of an elected | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
Government. That in itself appears hypocritical at the very least. It | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
is the fact is political life, that is our job, what is the point of | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
having a second house? With these particular responsibilities, we are | :34:42. | :34:43. | |
supposed to be there to look at these issues were now put before us. | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
In the Chancellor did not want that, he had other routes he could | :34:48. | :34:54. | |
take and he bungled it. Are you overstepping the mark and | :34:55. | :34:56. | |
overreaching yourselves and in the end, you will bring about a head-on | :34:57. | :34:59. | |
collision with the Commons? It will be extremely important that Mr | :35:00. | :35:02. | |
Cameron, who has kept his counsel on what would be the effective way to | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
deal with this issue, how he will come forward with proposals for the | :35:07. | :35:09. | |
long-term reform at the House of Lords. Any tinkering would be absurd | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
at this stage, we have to do what they themselves committed themselves | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
to into elections, and that was wholesale reform of the House of | :35:18. | :35:23. | |
Lords. Do you agree with that? I think Paul Tyler is right that this | :35:24. | :35:26. | |
raises the whole issue between the House of Commons and the Lords and | :35:27. | :35:29. | |
whether we should have an elected House of Lords. An elected House of | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
Lords would have powers that the unelected House of Lords doesn't | :35:34. | :35:36. | |
have but that would not solve the constitutional problems and could | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
worsen them. In Australia, you had a huge constitutional crisis between | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
the elected Senate and the elected lower house in 1975 because the | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
elected Senate refused to give the Government funds, and it ended very | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
controversially when the Governor general sacked the Prime Minister. | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
The question is, do we want these kinds of conflicts here and on what | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
basis would the upper house be elected? Liberal Democrats say it | :36:01. | :36:03. | |
would be on a federal basis but Britain isn't really a federal | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
state. We have parliaments in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
but not in England. Do you think the Government has the appetite for | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
that, again, the sort of programme of reform to the Lords? I think the | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
likeliest way in which they will deal with these troublesome Lords is | :36:20. | :36:25. | |
to introduce a bill in which they limit the powers of the Lords even | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
further and of the Lords reject that... You can understand why | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
because it wasn't just yesterday, there have been other examples and | :36:35. | :36:36. | |
you are putting forward another fatal motion this evening which | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
kills off the legislation. We asked -- we are asked specifically by | :36:43. | :36:45. | |
Parliament specifically to do so. It is different to last night, it is | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
our job to do this by law, in statute. Is that true because this | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
is to do with individual electoral registration and there is a fatal | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
motion on cuts to asylum seeker benefits. Is it the right of the | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
unelected house to do this? The Lords can survive only if it | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
exercises a sense of self restraint. It can ask the Government to think | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
again, that is absolutely right. But if they determined Government wants | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
to proceed, the Lords has to give way, it shouldn't go beyond that. | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
There is a great danger I believe now that the Labour and Liberal | :37:21. | :37:23. | |
Democrat peer are using it as a chamber of opposition, having lost | :37:24. | :37:26. | |
the election, trying to frustrate Government policy through the upper | :37:27. | :37:35. | |
house. What do you say to that? That is what it will look like, eight | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
MPs, no standing in the House of Commons in terms of exerting | :37:40. | :37:41. | |
opposition, this is where you can do it? The practical politics is it is | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
our job. Are you doing it with such relish because you can? No, I was | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
involved with the House of Lords before this Government and we have | :37:50. | :37:52. | |
had to do this job regularly, but with a coalition Government and | :37:53. | :37:55. | |
previously. I think you can look forward to more of those. You are | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
saying you have just asked the Government to think again and if it | :38:01. | :38:02. | |
does and comes back with more of the proposal to reform it, will you | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
accept it? I don't think it will come to it, because it will be dealt | :38:07. | :38:12. | |
with with some amendment to some specific bill. Coming back to the | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
finance aspect, the Treasury were briefing last week that the House of | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
Lords should be suspended. Frankly, the last person who tried to stop | :38:21. | :38:23. | |
the House of parliament doing its job was King Charles I. I think a | :38:24. | :38:28. | |
little respect for history would show it wasn't a clever thing to do, | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
he lost his head. That wasn't reasoned, of course, but thank you | :38:33. | :38:35. | |
very much for that slightly ominous N. | :38:36. | :38:37. | |
Jeremy Corbyn has struck a deal with the Scottish Labour | :38:38. | :38:40. | |
leader, Kezia Dugdale, allowing the party in Scotland more autonomy. | :38:41. | :38:42. | |
It's a controversial plan to turn around | :38:43. | :38:44. | |
the party's fortunes in Scotland after they lost all but one of their | :38:45. | :38:47. | |
Kezia Dugdale addressed Labour MPs at their weekly meeting | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
in the Commons last night, and our Scotland political correspondent | :38:52. | :38:53. | |
What did they say? Well, she certainly got polite applause at the | :38:54. | :39:04. | |
beginning and the end of the address. There were some questions | :39:05. | :39:08. | |
during get from MPs that were concerned that autonomy of the | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
Scottish Labour Party may mean that the United Labour Party, the | :39:13. | :39:15. | |
Unionist Labour Party, comes to an end. She says that is not the case | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
and this is about devolution and not a division of the UK party. There | :39:21. | :39:26. | |
were also questions from some MPs about the policy diversions that | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
this may mean in future, for instance on issues like defence, the | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
nuclear deterrent, for one, and taxation, which is another issue | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
which may it, in the end, mean that Scotland and the rest of the UK | :39:40. | :39:42. | |
Labour Party have different policy positions. Now, the MPs that emerged | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
from the meeting did not seem entirely convinced that they had | :39:49. | :39:51. | |
heard everything that they needed to about this, but Kezia Dugdale's | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
pitch to them was that if Labour's fortunes are to be turned around in | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
Scotland in time for next May's Scottish elections, she needs more | :40:01. | :40:03. | |
autonomy for the party and she needs to be able to set policy positions | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
to decide on candidates and not be a branch office of London, which, of | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
course, one of her predecessors accused the party of being. If the | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
changes are to go ahead, how would it | :40:17. | :40:19. | |
changes are to go ahead, how would terms of setting up, if you | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
changes are to go ahead, how would rest of the UK's | :40:26. | :40:25. | |
changes are to go ahead, how would Dugdale, I think, will argue it is | :40:26. | :40:28. | |
not a Dugdale, I think, will argue it is | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
a devolution of the party, it wouldn't be completely independent, | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
she says, but it would have control over its affairs over policy | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
positions, that it would be able to depart actively to decide at Party | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
Conference, positions that may be different to a UK party. She says we | :40:48. | :40:53. | |
will have to go to the NEC, the Scottish executive, and a special | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
conference before it is approved, but she signed the deal with Jeremy | :40:58. | :41:00. | |
Corbyn, a statement of intent and they say that is the road down which | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
they think they want to go, despite the concerns of some in the party. | :41:05. | :41:06. | |
Tim, thank you. And the Scottish Labour Leader, | :41:07. | :41:07. | |
Kezia Dugdale, Kezia Dugdale, just listening to | :41:08. | :41:16. | |
that, you want more autonomy for the Labour Party in Scotland. Has that | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
been prompted by the Labour Party swapping one North London leader for | :41:22. | :41:27. | |
another? No, I would say it has been caused by the fact that we lost all | :41:28. | :41:30. | |
but one of our seeds in the General Election and it is my job as new | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
leader here in Scotland with a huge mandate to turn around the fortunes | :41:36. | :41:38. | |
of my party to listen to that very strong message the people of | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
Scotland sent us. There is a perception, fair or otherwise, that | :41:43. | :41:45. | |
were too long the Scottish Labour Party was run for London by | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
Westminster and it simply has to change. That is why I have made the | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
case of a more autonomous Scottish Labour Party, said decisions around | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
policy, directions we take, are made here in Scotland by me and my team | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
and I think that is what voters in Scotland would act rapidly to | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
expect. I had taken it to the Labour Parliamentary party to say this is | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
not an Independent Labour Party, I didn't spend two and a half years to | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
campaign for a no vote in independence referendum for a | :42:15. | :42:17. | |
separate party, this is about devolution, the Labour Party | :42:18. | :42:20. | |
devolving power within its own structures and I think it is high | :42:21. | :42:23. | |
time we took up that opportunity. We will come up to some of the policy | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
decisions that you might have to go your separate ways on, but sticking | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
with Jeremy Corbyn, he has been the MP for Islington North since the | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
early 1980s. You would accept he is hardly going to be any more popular | :42:37. | :42:40. | |
in Scotland than Ed Miliband was, he doesn't really have any connection | :42:41. | :42:44. | |
to Scottish Labour, does he? I think you have made a very rational | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
judgment about Jeremy Corbyn. Both Jeremy and I want our respective | :42:50. | :42:52. | |
leadership contests, the party membership in Scotland is on the | :42:53. | :43:00. | |
up, we now stand at 30,000... Do think that as a result of Jeremy | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
Corbyn? It is a result of both was putting forward radical suggestions | :43:05. | :43:07. | |
to change the fortunes of our party and I look forward to working with | :43:08. | :43:10. | |
him. The reality is I have to set out a different pattern here in | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
Scotland to determine the Pappas and the Scottish interest and it is | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
about strengthening the UK Labour Party. Tim Reid referred to the | :43:20. | :43:22. | |
strong difference between something that is an act of devolution and | :43:23. | :43:25. | |
something viewed as division. This is entirely about the principle of | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
devolution, the idea of getting more power into Scotland so we can | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
determine our own fortunes. Do you agree with your predecessor Joanne | :43:35. | :43:37. | |
Lamont that Scottish Labour has in the past been treated like a branch | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
office? As I said in my opening remarks, there is no doubt that that | :43:43. | :43:49. | |
is a very strong perception people have in Scotland. It is not about | :43:50. | :43:52. | |
what politicians thing, it is what is happening on the doorsteps in | :43:53. | :43:54. | |
communities around the country. We were sent a thumping message in May, | :43:55. | :43:57. | |
we have to get that message, we have to reform and renew our party and I | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
won the leadership election here with 72% of the boat with a mandate | :44:02. | :44:04. | |
to do exactly this, to make a more autonomous Scottish Labour Party -- | :44:05. | :44:10. | |
of the vote. But I also promised to re-democratise the party and we go | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
into the conference this weekend with a lively programme to do things | :44:15. | :44:17. | |
differently and I am excited about that. I am also excited to lay out | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
my radical platform for how I intend to transform this country. Let's | :44:23. | :44:25. | |
talk about policy issues, what happens when you disagree with | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell on a policy over a non-devolved issue. | :44:30. | :44:32. | |
On Trident, for example? What happens? I have a mandate from the | :44:33. | :44:40. | |
party membership here to re-democratise our conference and I | :44:41. | :44:42. | |
am welcoming the prospect that there might be a debate on Trident this | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
weekend. What happens if you end up with two different policies question | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
mark come next election, voters are a Scottish MP are faced with a | :44:52. | :44:54. | |
Labour candidate that will be standing for a party with two | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
different positions on a key policy, how does that work? I do understand | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
this question and I have faced this over the last few days. You are | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
focusing on a hypothetical which we may face bore or five years down the | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
line but let me answer it specifically. We are going to create | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
the space for our party membership to have a debate on this particular | :45:16. | :45:18. | |
issue this weekend. Should it be the case that in five years' time, | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
hypothetically, that we are in a different position to the rest of | :45:23. | :45:25. | |
the UK party then like many other countries across Europe that operate | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
the federal type solution, there will be a process for working | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
through it. It is not new in terms of being a concept. It is new for | :45:34. | :45:39. | |
the Labour Party. I signed the statement of intent with Jeremy | :45:40. | :45:42. | |
Corbyn yesterday about the direction of travel, the relationship between | :45:43. | :45:45. | |
the Scottish Labour Party and the UK Labour Party. There is now, I have, | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
prospect for debate across the whole of the movement about what might | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
happen in Wales, across England and other parts of the country. The end | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
point of this would be next year's Party Conference, when any real | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
changes might take place, that is 11 months where various stakeholders, | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
MPs, MSP is, party members, unions, can come to the fore and talk about | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
how we might want to resolve the rare occasions where positions might | :46:11. | :46:11. | |
be conflicted. You say they are rare occasions and | :46:12. | :46:19. | |
you have time, which is true, but did you put pressure on Jeremy | :46:20. | :46:25. | |
Corbyn and John McDonald to change the fiscal charter? I spoke to them | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
and put forward my views on that. I don't profess to save that my view | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
was the thing that made them change their minds. I paraphrase, but you | :46:35. | :46:40. | |
say something like if they did not change their mind it would be | :46:41. | :46:43. | |
explosive as far as you are concerned in Scotland and the SNP | :46:44. | :46:46. | |
would make a? I did not use those words. I made the case about strong | :46:47. | :46:56. | |
anti-austerity measures. That it was not their position, was that? A few | :46:57. | :47:02. | |
machinations around that and it wasn't exclusive to the Labour | :47:03. | :47:08. | |
Party, but let me put it this way, I have regular conversations with | :47:09. | :47:11. | |
colleagues and friends across the Labour movement, I am in direct | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
contact with Jeremy Corbyn, Tom Watson, the rest of the team, all | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
the time. We are part of one movement, we are determined to turn | :47:20. | :47:22. | |
around the fortunes of the Scottish Labour Party and build a Labour | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
Party fit for the future. It is a massive opportunity. The principle | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
of devolution must apply. You say there are rare instances, which | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
areas of policy do you think you will need the freedom to disagree | :47:37. | :47:39. | |
with the National party? Look at the example that we will face in the | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
next few weeks around tax credit and welfare reform. Soon we will know | :47:45. | :47:47. | |
which of those powers are coming to the Scottish parliament but I would | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
like the position to set out those new powers and design our welfare | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
system and security system in Scotland that protects the people in | :47:56. | :47:58. | |
Scotland based on their needs. I will have the freedom to do that, it | :47:59. | :48:05. | |
is a good thing. But when you disagree with the leader of the | :48:06. | :48:09. | |
Westminster party, how will Scottish leaders vote in parliament? This is | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
an 11 month process, we will look at how to work through things when | :48:15. | :48:17. | |
there is complete. But the principle is sound, it is fundamentally about | :48:18. | :48:22. | |
devolution. The Labour Party has had different positions on education for | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
16 or more years. These are devolved issues, it is really where these | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
things are... But the principle is the same. It is different with a | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
non-devolved issue. Looking at your predecessors as leader of Scottish | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
Labour, Wendy Alexander, Johann Lamont, Jim Murphy, they presided | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
over the party during a period of decline. What makes you different? I | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
understand how big a task there is ahead. I was not unaware of that | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
when I put my name forward for the job, but I love my party and I | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
believe it has a bright future. The values of the Labour Party are as | :49:02. | :49:04. | |
relevant now as they have ever been. The challenges and | :49:05. | :49:07. | |
opportunities of the future can be realised and that is why I put my | :49:08. | :49:10. | |
name forward, because I want to turn around the fortunes of my party. I | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
have worked with a number of Labour leaders at close quarters, I have | :49:16. | :49:27. | |
seen these events close hand and have learned from that. All of those | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
people you name I would still call friends and close colleagues who | :49:31. | :49:33. | |
provide me with advice, and I know I am not alone, I have a strong team | :49:34. | :49:36. | |
of MSPs in the Parliament, a growing movement of party members and | :49:37. | :49:38. | |
supporters across the country who believe in the party and our values | :49:39. | :49:41. | |
and beliefs we have the answers to nationalism and will set out those | :49:42. | :49:43. | |
bright ideas for the future this coming weekend at the party | :49:44. | :49:45. | |
conference. I am upbeat and optimistic about my party's future. | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
Isn't it the reality that voters in Scotland, having experienced | :49:51. | :49:55. | |
devolution, see the SNP at far more effective at bashing the Westminster | :49:56. | :50:00. | |
Government and getting more the Labour and will continue to vote in | :50:01. | :50:05. | |
the SNP in Scotland and, well, differently down in Westminster, | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
obviously, but that will be the situation? What a travesty to assume | :50:11. | :50:14. | |
the one purpose of the SNP is to bash the Government in Westminster. | :50:15. | :50:18. | |
We sit in an incredibly powerful parliament just 500 metres from | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
where I am sitting now. A ?30 billion budget, powers over health, | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
education, welfare powers, tax powers, powers to transform the life | :50:28. | :50:30. | |
chances of people the length and breadth of book and treat and after | :50:31. | :50:33. | |
eight years of the SNP Government the gap in other schools between the | :50:34. | :50:39. | |
richest and poorest pupils is the widest it has ever been. A flagship | :50:40. | :50:43. | |
hospital in Scotland where one in four people which more than four | :50:44. | :50:49. | |
hours to be seen in A The record of the SNP Government has to be | :50:50. | :50:52. | |
exposed and understood across the United Kingdom, it is about far more | :50:53. | :50:57. | |
than Westminster obedience. Kezia Dugdale, thank you. | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
The problem that the Corbyn fans have is they said during his | :51:03. | :51:06. | |
campaign that the reason Labour fared so badly in Scotland in May is | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
because they did not embrace the same anti-austerity politics that | :51:12. | :51:14. | |
the SNP did. Actually, now that Corbyn is leader, it does not look | :51:15. | :51:19. | |
like Labour will fare any better in the Scottish regional elections next | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
year. Well, we will have to see. The Tories don't really have anything | :51:24. | :51:27. | |
either. It looks like Labour will wipe out, Corbyn will make no | :51:28. | :51:32. | |
difference. To me, it feels like advanced damage control, we are | :51:33. | :51:37. | |
intending to devolve power to the Labour Party in Scotland, let Kezia | :51:38. | :51:40. | |
lead that, it is not our fault. The Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn | :51:41. | :51:42. | |
isn't short of critics - in the right-wing press, in the | :51:43. | :51:45. | |
left-wing press, in the Conservative And now | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
he's got some in the Middle East. the Ministry of Justice scrapped | :51:50. | :51:59. | |
a ?6 million deal to provide prison Here's the message Jeremy Corbyn | :52:00. | :52:02. | |
delivered to David Cameron during ..threatened | :52:03. | :52:12. | |
with the death penalty for taking part in a demonstration | :52:13. | :52:40. | |
at the age of 17 and, while you're about it, terminate that bid made by | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
our Ministry of Justice to provide prison services for Saudi Arabia, | :52:45. | :52:47. | |
which would be required to carry out the sentence that would be put | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
down on Ali Mohammed al-Nimr. Although many might agree with | :52:52. | :52:59. | |
Mr Corbyn, is it unwise to upset one Middle East? Conservative MP Alan | :53:00. | :53:11. | |
Duncan think so, but journalist James Bloodworth says we should not | :53:12. | :53:14. | |
be shy about human rights. They join me now. | :53:15. | :53:17. | |
Did Jeremy Corbyn influence the Prime Minister's decision to cancel | :53:18. | :53:19. | |
the present contract? Prime Minister's decision to cancel | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
I do think so but I Prime Minister's decision to cancel | :53:24. | :53:26. | |
stuck with the contract because I think if we can be | :53:27. | :53:29. | |
stuck with the contract because I reforming their present it is a good | :53:30. | :53:32. | |
thing. We had someone who was supposedly going to be lashed, I | :53:33. | :53:34. | |
don't think it was going to happen but that is what our local headlines | :53:35. | :53:38. | |
said, and if we were part of it we would be in a better position to | :53:39. | :53:42. | |
influence the judicial decisions. The bigger issue, though, is that | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
the whole of the Middle East is a mess and if you just have this | :53:47. | :53:50. | |
megaphone self-righteousness you risk making it messier, and the | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
Saudi regime is far more moderate than their own people, and if you | :53:55. | :53:57. | |
want to bin the regime and replace it with a sort of non-democratic | :53:58. | :54:03. | |
Isis all over Saudi Arabia, you would very, very quickly regret | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
having done that. Do you think it risks making it messier, the | :54:08. | :54:11. | |
situation of relations with Saudi? It depends how far you go. We should | :54:12. | :54:16. | |
not advocate overthrowing the Government in Saudi Arabia but I | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
would like to see less of the obsequious treatment of the Saudi | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
royal family by the Government. We had to be half flying of the British | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
flag when King Abdullah passed away. Saudi Arabia is the largest arms | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
market for British arms companies. I think Jeremy Corbyn is right to draw | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
attention to that. But at the same time I think he has his own problem | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
with a lack of consistency in that he stands on platforms with outfits | :54:42. | :54:47. | |
supported by the Iranian Government, and is also soft on Putin's Russia, | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
so it is about consistency. Sticking with Saudi Arabia, you say this | :54:53. | :54:58. | |
megaphone politics is not anything that could prevent the abuse of | :54:59. | :55:02. | |
human rights, all the lashings of a young boy, or a grandfather. Isn't | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
anything that stops that a good thing? I'm not saying one should not | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
talk about it, discuss it, tell them what you think in private. All I'm | :55:12. | :55:15. | |
saying is that simplistic grandstanding like we heard from | :55:16. | :55:19. | |
Jeremy Corbyn, let's intervene to stop the lashing, is total fantasy. | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
What you have got to be here is realistic, you have to be realistic | :55:24. | :55:26. | |
about the nature of resumes in that part of the world, their history, | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
what you can and cannot change, and what would replace what is there now | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
if there were a vacuum that needed to be filled. Aren't you tiptoeing | :55:37. | :55:41. | |
around the regime here, somewhat? No, you need a lot of understanding | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
about the nature of Saudi society, the people themselves but also the | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
regime, where they rule with a measure of consent in the sense that | :55:51. | :55:53. | |
if they don't have collected approval by quickly replaced. There | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
is quite a lot going on now within the regime which we will not know | :55:58. | :56:00. | |
about which is straining a lot of the stability we are seeing. What | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
sort of relationship should we have with Saudi Arabia? I have many of | :56:05. | :56:09. | |
the same reservations as James about human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia, | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
the fact women are not allowed to drive, bloggers are routinely | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
prosecuted, in some cases flogged and so forth, but the risks of | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
withdrawing from our relationship with Saudi Arabia is that we lose | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
any possible positive influence we might have, and I think there | :56:26. | :56:36. | |
should, qualified response is better -- Margaret and I think a measured, | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
qualified response. Was it right to drop the prison contract? I think it | :56:41. | :56:46. | |
was, considering how unjust it is. People would have read it as us, if | :56:47. | :56:51. | |
you like, being involved, even at a distance, to some of the abuses that | :56:52. | :56:55. | |
go on in the presence? It is a difficult decision of whether to | :56:56. | :57:01. | |
become involved or not with a regime like that. When I was a minister we | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
try to have a lot of processes with regimes like that, you could say, | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
don't go near them because it is a messy process, or try to make it | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
better. It is a difficult moral call, and absolutism in these | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
issues, and I agree with Toby, is actually a bad position to hold. | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
James, would things change dramatically under a Jeremy Corbyn | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
leadership? I think so. If he does win, which is unlikely at this | :57:27. | :57:30. | |
point, if he does win a general election things would change, but I | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
think the danger is it would go to buy the other way, so you would lose | :57:36. | :57:37. | |
cooperation with Saudi Arabia on things like Bashar al-Assad, on | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
terrorism, but Jeremy would be too soft on countries like Iran and | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
Russia, which is another side of the human rights abuse coin, I think. | :57:47. | :57:51. | |
You have worked in oil producing countries in the past, Saudi Arabia | :57:52. | :57:54. | |
is the biggest, does it come back to oil and money? Oil if it viable | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
commodity, it does not matter what we say to Saudi Arabia, if prices go | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
up and down it is the same for everybody so there is no direct | :58:04. | :58:05. | |
benefit that comes from talking about oil with Saudi Arabia, no | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
special flow or supply at a special price. It is equal misery. So what | :58:11. | :58:16. | |
is the point of flattering them and keeping them onside? The point is | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
the Middle East matters to us. Of course oil does matter, try doing | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
without it! But for us to be in the mix with golf countries and | :58:25. | :58:28. | |
roundabout, like Yemen and the nearer Middle East with Palestine | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
and Israel, it is essential, I think, that we are a respected voice | :58:33. | :58:36. | |
in the mix, and if we withdraw by saying, you are all bad, Little | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
Britain becomes even smaller. Does it make a difference on terrorism? I | :58:41. | :58:48. | |
think it does, we are not privy to all the information, but at the same | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
time Saudi Arabia spreads messages across the world... I have to | :58:53. | :58:57. | |
quickly get to the quiz. Can you remember the question? | :58:58. | :59:00. | |
The question was, which celebrity peer was flown in from New York | :59:01. | :59:03. | |
Andrew Lloyd Webber. It was. I love the idea of him being flown in all | :59:04. | :59:13. | |
the way from New York, it has a sort of glamour about it. People have | :59:14. | :59:17. | |
criticised him, saying he has gone to great lengths to vote for the tax | :59:18. | :59:21. | |
credit cuts, but the Conservatives had a whip in operation, they had to | :59:22. | :59:25. | |
do that in response to the whipping of the Lib Dem and Labour peers. You | :59:26. | :59:29. | |
got it in! That is it from us, goodbye! | :59:30. | :59:32. |