11/12/2015 Daily Politics


11/12/2015

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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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"Gutless" is the view of one business group at news that

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a decision on airport expansion has been delayed yet again.

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Ministers now say they won't make up their minds until next summer.

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"Hopefully", says the Transport Minister.

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They say the reason for the delay is further environmental study.

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But might it also have something to do with political calculation?

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Still no sign of a global deal on emissions at the climate change

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As negotiators prepare to sail past today's deadline, we'll speak

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to the UK's former climate negotiatior, John Prescott.

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Jeremy Corbyn's under pressure - no not from the Blairites,

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but from hairy MPs after his title of Beard of the Year.

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We'll have the result live, exlclusively on the Daily Politics.

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And Donald Trump seems to have much of the country up in arms

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after his call to ban Muslims from the US.

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We'll talk to his solitary defender, columnist Katie Hopkins.

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All that in the next hour, and with me for the duration two

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journalists that we've tried repeatedly to ban from entering

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the Daily Politics studio, until we can work what the hell

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But after an internet campaign by absolutely no-one we've

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decided to let them in - it's Steve Richards

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from the Independent and Anne McElvoy from the Economist.

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Let's start today by talking about Stop the War's Christmas

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It's not an event which usually excites national media interest,

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but this three course meal at a Turkish restaurant in London

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has proved rather controversial because it's going to be

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He used to chair the group until he became Labour

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And the reason it's controversial because Stop the War has been

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criticised after a series of statements that it later disowned.

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One suggested that France had "reaped the whirlwind" of Western

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Another compared the Islamic State to the International Brigades

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that fought against Franco in the Spanish Civil War.

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Both statements have since been taken down but they've

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led to calls for Mr Corbyn not to attend.

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Here's the former Labour minister Emma Reynolds.

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I hope that Jeremy Corbyn will pull back from the Stop The War dinner,

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because I believe that the leadership of Stop The War

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In the immediate aftermath of the brutal Paris attacks,

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they published an article saying that Paris was reaping the whirlwind

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They've also recently published an article comparing the brave men

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and women who went to Spain in the 1930s to fight

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I think these views are unacceptable.

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I think this organisation, unfortunately, is disreputable

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and I hope that our party leader withdraws from the dinner.

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That's the view of one Labour MP. At either of you going to the Stop The

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War dinner tonight? Strangely I was not invited. I don't think you have

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to be. I'm not going but I know the restaurant. I think I have spoken at

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this restaurant, the acoustics are disastrous. Nobody will be able to

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hear a word he says. They must be over the moon, look at how much

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publicity they are getting. It is part of a very complicated story. If

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you get in the mind of Jeremy Corbyn I can understand completely why he

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is going. They were part of this campaign to win the leadership

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contest. Do you, as a leader... This is all about loyalty and who you are

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loyal to, disown your past and those who got you there? It would be

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impossible for him to make that mental leap, so I can understand.

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The problem I can see, and Emma Reynolds put her finger on it when

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she said district of. That is a certain part of Stop The War who do

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not like interventions, and that is fairer enough. That is Jeremy

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Corbyn. Exactly. Why should he go? This muddled history about comparing

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international brigades to jihadists, it is like a cat 's cradle argument.

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Everything is the West's fault, never the very silent Russia, for

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instance in was closer to home and in the Middle East. I think as

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Labour leader that is the change you does need to make. All of that may

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be true, but these are the people Jeremy Corbyn has mixed with for

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over 30 is. He has been chairman of Stop The War, right at the heart of

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this project. There his kind of people. He is their kind of

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socialist, why should they not have a Christmas dinner?

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Maybe over time... It would take a very different character... Neil

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Kinnock, over time he disowned his support for unilateral disarmament,

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which early on in his leadership he said if you -- if he disowned it his

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wife would kick him out of the house. He didn't get kicked out of

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the house. Heeded. A few months after getting the leadership, partly

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via the support of groups like this, do not turn up is, I think, just

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impossible, actually, if you are him. It does not mean everything

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they say is sensible, but he chaired it. These Labour MPs have said it

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would be disingenuous. You are suggesting... You use the example of

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Neil Kinnock. Either he is going to change and become a bigger leader

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and a more inclusive leader, which he promised to do, he can go to

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whatever Danae likes, but we are talking about this symbolically, we

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are not interested in what he eat at the restaurant night. Enough, I am

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looking forward to it. Turkey is Turkey.

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The question for today is, what competition have both

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Samantha Cameron and former Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls

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or D) Celebrity Great British Bake Off?

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As every programme now got celebrity in the title?

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We will get the answer. It has been in all of the papers. It is an easy

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one. Asking a journalist what has been in the papers! You might even

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get a mug. David Cameron offered

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his "guarantee" that the Government

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would reach a decision on whether to build a third runway

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at Heathrow by the end of the year. Well, yesterday, he took

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the decision not to make Instead, the Government kicked

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the question of if and where to expand airport capacity

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in the south of the UK back to next summer, pending more work

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on the environmental impact Let's remind ourselves how this

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all began. It is a long story so I hope you're

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sitting comfortably. In 2009, the Labour Government,

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led by Gordon Brown, said it would build a third

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runway at Heathrow. In 2010 as head of the new coalition

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government, David Cameron This was after he made a "no ifs,

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no buts" pledge that he wouldn't In 2012 David Cameron set up

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the Airports Commission, chaired by the economist

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Howard Davies, to consider In July the Commission finally

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reported, suggesting three options - a third runway at Heathrow,

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which business groups favour, a second runway at Gatwick Airport,

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or extending an existing Their preferred option

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was a third runway at Heathrow. Heathrow says this would

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contribute ?100 billion But last week a committee of MPs

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said the airport still needs to prove that a new runway

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would meet air quality standards. And last night it was announced that

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no decision would be made until next summer,

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which would be after This prompted Labour's

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candidate Sadiq Khan, to claim the Government had

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stalled in "order to avoid embarrassing their mayoral

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candidate" Zac Goldsmith. Earlier this morning,

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the Transport Secretary, Patrick McLoughin, denied

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the postponement of a decision We have known for a very long time

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when the mayoral elections were going to be, so if we

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deliberately wanted to say we weren't going to make this

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until after the mayoral election, we'd have just set the timetable

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for another 12 months and we didn't do that, because we have had to come

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forward with the extra Well, we'll speak to Conservative

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mayoral candidate Zac Goldsmith this decision on lack of a decision

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gutless, dilly-dallying, what adjective would you like to add? I

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think it undermines business confidence in the

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think it undermines business tough decisions on economic policy.

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They called in to question the point of asking the airports commission to

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come forward, and they considered quite a lot of the environmental

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impact, if you are letting this be subject to political considerations.

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Why do you think the government in general, Mr Cameron in particular,

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has done this? I think it goes back a bit further than David Cameron.

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have had decades of political dithering on a subject to different

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have had decades of political brings into question if the

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government is is about its exports target, why isn't it getting on with

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the decision? target, why isn't it getting on with

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you. Why do you target, why isn't it getting on with

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out with this report and it is interesting to see the government is

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so responsive to a select committee report, it hasn't usually been so

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quick to jump report, it hasn't usually been so

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is not for me to speculate on what is dragging them

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is not for me to speculate on what consideration or another but it is

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clear there is a role of politics to play here. Is it

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despite this delay, that Heathrow will in the end be chosen for a

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third runway? From the Institute of directors point of view the

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consideration at this point is the lack of decision, lack of action. We

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cannot forecast weather Heathrow will get the go-ahead or Gatwick or

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any other option. We want to see a decision taken in the near future

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because we are at risk of losing ?1.4 million a year in lost trade

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with rival markets. Thank you very much for that.

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We're joined now by the Conservative mayoral candidate Zac Goldsmith,

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he's promised to resign as an MP if the decision is made to build

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Zac Goldsmith, where you by Downing Street before the

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announcement last night? No, I have had a one-way conversations at

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Downing Street for a very long time, but meet them and not the other way

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round. I had no tip off. When did you last beat to the Prime Minister?

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I take every opportunity to speak to the prime Chancellor, the front

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bench and that is what I have done for my five years as an MP. Did you

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meet David Cameron at three o'clock on Wednesday? I met him earlier in

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the week, I don't know if it was Wednesday... I don't want to be

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caught out. We met to talk about housing and policing. Not actually

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to talk about Heathrow. Did you talk about Heathrow at all? I used the

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opportunity to repeat my position on Heathrow. So you did talk about it?

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A one-way conversation. The Prime Minister did not respond me in

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response to Heathrow. I took the opportunity to put my forward very

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much on the agenda, in a much broader conversation. Heathrow at

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the top of the agenda for the moment. Did you tell the Prime

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Minister again that if he went ahead with Heathrow and an announcement

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that you would resign your seat? I don't think I did, but I don't think

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I need to. It was a promise I made, it is not a threat, it is a promise

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I made eight years ago. I didn't call it a promise or a threat I just

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said, did you repeat...? I don't think I did, I may have done but I

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don't think I did. A member of your team. My promise is on record. It is

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not promise anyone regarded as a bluff and it was not a promise... I

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am not questioning the integrity of the promise but one member of your

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team told Sky News that you had effectively held a gun to the Prime

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Minister's head. My team question mark on very much doubt that. That

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is what Sky are reporting. There are not going to make it up. You can

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describe how you want. I think it is a red herring. I have spoken to the

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Prime Minister about this issue. I lobbied two weeks ago and three

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weeks before that about the housing bill. You haven't said you would

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resign over the police budget? My job as an MP and candidate as Mayor

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of London is to take every opportunity... You said you would

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cause a by-election over the police budget? You did over Heathrow. This

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is not an free nude issue, this is something I promised eight years ago

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to my constituents, before I became an MP. I did so because although

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they loved what David Cameron was saying in a position, they didn't

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believe him. -- this is not a new issue. The Prime Minister... This is

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not a new issue. I am well aware, we have talked about it... It is a

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longer issue than most, that is part of the problem. The Prime Minister

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in effect has kowtowed to your point of view? The Prime Minister has

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reached the right position. I want to make the point, people have said

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this is a delay, dithering, it is not a delay. It was clear in the

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airports commission that even if the PM said yesterday we would go with

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the throat he would have to go through the same process, still have

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to subject that option to the environmental tests to which his

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subject in the other options. Of the Prime Minister had said the

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government's policies to go ahead with Heathrow it would have become

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the process. It would have begun the process, this delay is a process

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until the summer at the earliest. I would argue jobs. If he pinned all

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his hopes on Heathrow expansion, subjected them to airport tests,

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which we know Heathrow could not pass, we would be back to square one

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in six months and looking at other options.

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I don't even get one-way conversations with him??NO SPACE!

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You do. I am not part of the decision-making process. If, through

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what I have done, I have managed to influence the debate along with

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thousands of other residents, I would not apologise for that. That

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is my job, to campaign and succeed. Should people not be rightly angry,

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regardless of their views on this issue, that one of the biggest

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investment decisions facing this country, whether we do or don't, has

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been hijacked to further Tory electoral ambitions? I don't accept

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that. The government is doing what it has to do, which is to subject

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Heathrow and the other options to a test that it was going to have to in

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any case. The only new thing we heard yesterday was that the other

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options will be treated on a par with the same testing. For me, that

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is a good outcome, because it means Heathrow will be removed from the

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menu because it cannot meet those tests. That is your view. It is not

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the view of the Davies commission. Any independent authority would

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agree with me. The Davies commission was independent. You asking our

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viewers to accept that it is entirely coincidence that the

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decision has now been postponed until you get through your mayoral

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election campaign? I am not arguing it it away. I don't know why the

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decision was made I was not part of the decision-making process. But I

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am his with where we are. You are wrong about the airports commission.

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With respect, Howard Davies himself said a few weeks ago that on the

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back of the VW scandal, the government would now need to satisfy

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its off-again that Heathrow's plans are considerable -- reconciliation

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with the law. Let's look at would happen if the government had said,

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we are going ahead with Heathrow. They would still have more

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environmental studies to do. You would have resigned your seat and

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caused a by-election. Would you have remained as Tory mayoral candidate?

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Yes. So in a sense, the Tories would have gone into the mayoral election

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with someone who was provoking a by-election. Would you have stood as

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a Tory? I wouldn't have stood in the by-election. You cannot fight two

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elections at the same time. The mayoral campaign is not about

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Heathrow. It is an important issue, but not as important as housing,

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policing or TfL investments. So I am delighted that Heathrow will not be

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the dominant discussion. Haven't you fallen into the government's trap,

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then? What is likely to happen is that after the mayoral election, the

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government will, if you win, you will be mayor. You will resign as a

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Tory MP presumably if you win, and the government proceeds with

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Heathrow. But I don't think that is possible. That would be true if the

:19:55.:20:01.

test that has been set is a false test, but you cannot falsify issues

:20:02.:20:04.

around air-pollution. So if Heathrow is asked a tough question about air

:20:05.:20:09.

pollution, however it is phrased, either account out answer that

:20:10.:20:13.

question. Therefore, Heathrow, logically, is moving close to the

:20:14.:20:18.

exit. The only I would be wrong would be if the test was fraudulent,

:20:19.:20:22.

if Heathrow was able to mark its own homework like VW has been able to.

:20:23.:20:29.

So you are putting everything on it not passing these environmental test

:20:30.:20:33.

is? I would not say that is the only argument against Heathrow expansion,

:20:34.:20:37.

but that is the only point that has been raised by government, and on

:20:38.:20:40.

that point alone, let alone noise and of thing else, on air pollution,

:20:41.:20:44.

Heathrow failed the test. So I am pleased that we are where we are.

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The right question is being asked. Do you accept that if you win as

:20:55.:21:01.

mayor, and you resign as a Conservative MP... I don't think you

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can do both. I understand, but is it still possible for the government to

:21:10.:21:12.

come out in favour of Heathrow, leaving you to oppose the government

:21:13.:21:16.

policy as the Mayor of London? Theoretically possible. So in a

:21:17.:21:23.

sense, nothing has changed. I think things have changed. The right

:21:24.:21:26.

question is being asked. We are today where I would like us to be. I

:21:27.:21:31.

was asked months ago, what is the outcome you would like when the

:21:32.:21:34.

government response? It is more or less the decision we had from

:21:35.:21:38.

government yesterday, which is to treat Heathrow and Gatwick on a par

:21:39.:21:42.

and the third option, which I do not think is all that serious com but

:21:43.:21:46.

treat the options on a par and make them answer the same questions. I am

:21:47.:21:51.

as confident as it is possible to be. That was what the Davies

:21:52.:21:54.

commission was meant to do, but it didn't give you the answer you

:21:55.:21:59.

wanted. Are you in favour of Gatwick? If it is a choice between

:22:00.:22:02.

Heathrow and Gatwick, Gatwick is a no-brainer. The question is about

:22:03.:22:09.

monopoly versus competition. Notwithstanding what has been said

:22:10.:22:13.

in relation to Heathrow, there is a good reason why Heathrow's biggest

:22:14.:22:17.

customer is opposed to Heathrow expansion, because they know that

:22:18.:22:23.

monopoly is not good for consumers. But as Mayor of London, if that was

:22:24.:22:27.

to happen, and it is by no means a slam dunk for you, but if it

:22:28.:22:31.

happened, you would not use City Hall to campaign against Gatwick?

:22:32.:22:38.

No. The argument for me is that we must have competition. The arguments

:22:39.:22:43.

in favour of Stansted are as good if not better than Gatwick. The issue

:22:44.:22:45.

for me is that it does not better than Gatwick. The issue

:22:46.:22:48.

such a way that we cobbled together the old monopoly, which serves no

:22:49.:22:53.

one's interests. The first objective is to invest in improving links to

:22:54.:22:58.

and from the quick, to and from Stansted. Allow those apples to

:22:59.:22:59.

compete with each other Stansted. Allow those apples to

:23:00.:23:02.

effectively as they can. Make use of existing capacity. If we

:23:03.:23:07.

effectively as they can. Make use of expand, don't do it at Heathrow.

:23:08.:23:08.

That simply expand, don't do it at Heathrow.

:23:09.:23:12.

which are not in the interests of consumers, the environment or anyone

:23:13.:23:16.

else. When you have one-way conversations with the Prime

:23:17.:23:19.

Minister, who is doing the talking? They are not all one way. But in

:23:20.:23:22.

relation to They are not all one way. But in

:23:23.:23:26.

not respond to what I am saying. He had to wait until the committee

:23:27.:23:28.

reported. had to wait until the committee

:23:29.:23:33.

for a book or a nod. -- had to wait until the committee

:23:34.:23:41.

order. But I am now pleased with where we are.

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Listening to that from our Nottingham studio

:23:43.:23:44.

What would Labour do? We are keen Lilian Greenwood.

:23:45.:23:58.

What would Labour do? We are keen take a view on proposals when the

:23:59.:24:01.

government brings some forward. But as we saw from the shambolic

:24:02.:24:05.

announcement yesterday, David Cameron is breaking that guarantee

:24:06.:24:06.

you Cameron is breaking that guarantee

:24:07.:24:13.

by the end of the year, and for political reasons, has kicked it

:24:14.:24:17.

into the long grass. This morning, Patrick McLoughlin only says he

:24:18.:24:20.

hopes there will be a decision next summer. Goodness knows when there

:24:21.:24:24.

will be certainty for business and residents close to and Gatwick. So

:24:25.:24:27.

will be certainty for business and you have got an open goal in

:24:28.:24:31.

attacking the government's dithering. Even the Tories have

:24:32.:24:40.

called it a ditherama. Are you in favour or against the Davies

:24:41.:24:44.

commission's conclusions? The Davies commission are right that we need

:24:45.:24:49.

more runway capacity in the south-east. They have made

:24:50.:24:55.

recommendations. I know what their recommendations are, I am asking if

:24:56.:24:59.

you are in favour of them or not. We need to see what proposals the

:25:00.:25:02.

government makes. I did not ask about the government proposals. The

:25:03.:25:05.

Davies commission came to the conclusion that there were three

:25:06.:25:10.

options for more capacity in the south-east. The option it preferred

:25:11.:25:13.

was a third runway at Heathrow. What is your party's view on that? We

:25:14.:25:19.

can't take a position until we see firm proposals for bringing forward

:25:20.:25:25.

that much-needed airport expansion. You can have a view on the

:25:26.:25:28.

commission. The commission demonstrates that there was a need

:25:29.:25:35.

for additional runways. But do you support or are you opposed, as Zac

:25:36.:25:43.

Goldsmith is? Are you in favour of the preferred conclusion of the

:25:44.:25:48.

Davies commission? I cannot take a view on something that is just

:25:49.:25:51.

recommendations from the commission. Why not? Because we need to see what

:25:52.:25:56.

proposals the government is bringing forward. There are a number of

:25:57.:26:00.

things that Davies sets out as being conditions he would like to impose,

:26:01.:26:07.

like the ban on night flights. We know what is in the commission. I am

:26:08.:26:16.

asking you if you agree. Since you cannot answer that or tell me what

:26:17.:26:20.

Labour's policy is, what bit of ditherama should not apply to you

:26:21.:26:25.

and the Labour Party as well? We have clearly set out how we will

:26:26.:26:28.

make a decision on the government's proposals for bringing forward Apple

:26:29.:26:34.

capacity. I am asking you for your view. I am still government. That

:26:35.:26:39.

doesn't matter, you aspire to government. Oppositions take

:26:40.:26:43.

positions all the time on what they would do in government. Let me try

:26:44.:26:48.

one more time so that identify you along with the government and a

:26:49.:26:51.

ditherama. Does Labour have a policy on a third runway at Heathrow or

:26:52.:26:57.

not? Our policy is to subject the actual proposals the government

:26:58.:27:01.

brings forward to full tests around whether it meets the long-term

:27:02.:27:05.

capacity needs of the country, whether it is consistent with our

:27:06.:27:09.

climate change obligations, can it deal with the local environmental

:27:10.:27:13.

impacts in relation to noise and air pollution, and can serve the whole

:27:14.:27:16.

country, not just London and the south-east? As soon as the

:27:17.:27:19.

government wing forward proposals to take forward their policy, we will

:27:20.:27:25.

be able to form a labour view on it. And if the government's policy

:27:26.:27:28.

satisfied you on these considerations, you would be in

:27:29.:27:33.

favour of a third runway? Of course. If they brought forward proposals

:27:34.:27:37.

that satisfied our four tests, we would be able to form a view of the

:27:38.:27:41.

Labour Party. Forming a view is different from telling me if you

:27:42.:27:44.

would be in favour of a third runway. If it passed the four tests,

:27:45.:27:49.

would you be in favour of a third runway? We would have to see the

:27:50.:27:55.

detailed proposals. So you can't even and so that. So N thee for

:27:56.:28:03.

ditherama for you as well. When the government brings forward its

:28:04.:28:06.

proposals, the Labour party will form a view on this. It sounds like

:28:07.:28:12.

you are both useless at coming to a decision. The last Labour government

:28:13.:28:16.

dealt with this issue and we lost the election. You were in favour of

:28:17.:28:26.

the Heathrow runway in 2009. We lost the election in 2010. We called for

:28:27.:28:30.

an independent airports commission. You got that. Eventually, the

:28:31.:28:38.

government agreed to do that, but decided it couldn't report until

:28:39.:28:43.

after the general election. Now they have spent months doing nothing, it

:28:44.:28:48.

seems, since babies reported, only to kick it down the road rather than

:28:49.:28:52.

bring forward information about the environmental considerations --

:28:53.:28:57.

since Davies reported. They are working to their own political

:28:58.:29:02.

timetable. One final point. Your Shadow Chancellor has said it would

:29:03.:29:07.

be an economic disaster to build a third runway at Heathrow. John has a

:29:08.:29:16.

long held view. He is your Shadow Chancellor. It would have a

:29:17.:29:21.

considerable impact on his constituency, but when there are

:29:22.:29:25.

proposals, we have to reach a view as the Labour Party in the interests

:29:26.:29:30.

of the whole country, albeit I understand that individual MPs have

:29:31.:29:34.

individual views, particularly where it impacts their constituency.

:29:35.:29:43.

Thanks for joining us. In years to come, this will be a

:29:44.:29:48.

case study on how not to take a decision. Absolutely. I think I sat

:29:49.:29:56.

here in 2009, having the same conversation. Labour was then

:29:57.:30:00.

divided. Gordon Brown, to his credit, did come to a decision,

:30:01.:30:10.

which was overturned the next year. Zac is a principled opponent. Lilian

:30:11.:30:15.

Greenwood was sitting on the fence. I think that Labour, at the moment,

:30:16.:30:20.

will come out as anti-Heathrow. And yet George Osborne is desperate to

:30:21.:30:28.

expand Heathrow. London business is desperate to expand Heathrow. I know

:30:29.:30:32.

there are other options. But the elephant in the room is that a lot

:30:33.:30:37.

of people who have British business interests at heart really want this

:30:38.:30:40.

to happen. I suspect that is the way it might go. I wonder whether these

:30:41.:30:46.

tests we are arguing about will ultimately be swept aside by the

:30:47.:30:50.

middle of next year. In power, Labour came out in favour of a third

:30:51.:30:55.

runway. Cameron opposed it. Out of power, Ed Miliband as Labour leader

:30:56.:31:00.

opposed a third runway. Bit by bit, the Tory government, under pressure

:31:01.:31:04.

from the Treasury, started to become in favour of it. Now we are in a

:31:05.:31:08.

Mexican stand-off, with both parties unable to tellers their policy.

:31:09.:31:14.

Harriet Harman came out for Heathrow when she was acting leader. It is

:31:15.:31:22.

interesting. You discussed with Zac Goldsmith the political implications

:31:23.:31:25.

for the London election. It is wider than that, it is a reminder this is

:31:26.:31:29.

a government with a tiny overall majority. I remember having a

:31:30.:31:34.

conversation with one of Cameron's senior allies in May when there was

:31:35.:31:38.

this euphoria of the Tory overall majority. He said, we have three

:31:39.:31:44.

very big barriers to overcome. One, tax credits. Another Europe and the

:31:45.:31:48.

third was the airports. They have struggled in all three. They haven't

:31:49.:31:53.

got a big majority to do really tough decisions. I think that is

:31:54.:32:02.

part of it. Cameron has never been gung ho. I think those two factors

:32:03.:32:09.

play in. Enough. We have to go all the way through the summer. We are

:32:10.:32:16.

sorry, Zac Goldsmith, to have held you hostage in the studio as you

:32:17.:32:18.

listened to that. Now, there's been a huge conference

:32:19.:32:19.

on climate change going on in Paris It's meant to lead to the first

:32:20.:32:22.

new global climate deal in 18 years, and the deadline for a deal is 6pm

:32:23.:32:27.

tonight, although when you're trying to get more than 190 countries

:32:28.:32:30.

to agree, it's never a great surprise when the timetable slips

:32:31.:32:33.

and indeed, it is now not expected In the last hour, the UN

:32:34.:32:36.

Secretary General, Ban Ki-Moon has put a positive gloss on how

:32:37.:32:45.

the talks are concluding. There are still several outstanding

:32:46.:32:50.

issues, like deforestation or ambitions and climate

:32:51.:32:58.

financing etc. But during many years

:32:59.:33:03.

of negotiations, they have Very good solutions have

:33:04.:33:05.

already been presented. This morning, we have much cleaner,

:33:06.:33:18.

streamlined text, and this is a good Many paragraphs have

:33:19.:33:21.

been dropped and Ban Ki-Moon there, saying there is

:33:22.:33:42.

disagreement, bits in the agreement which have not been written which

:33:43.:33:48.

have brackets which will be fielded later.

:33:49.:33:48.

He represented the British Government at the climate talks

:33:49.:33:57.

in Kyoto back in 1997 and has held various other roles

:33:58.:34:00.

Welcome back to the Daily Politics. We learned last month that China's

:34:01.:34:10.

statistics agency, on its use of coal, 17% higher than the official

:34:11.:34:15.

figures admitted. We know China still has to build a lot of coal

:34:16.:34:18.

fire stations. Even still has to build a lot of coal

:34:19.:34:23.

deal, how do you keep tabs on it? That is an important point, to see

:34:24.:34:28.

of promises made are delivered on. The Kyoto one, it reminds me of a

:34:29.:34:31.

of promises made are delivered on. lot of happen there but the

:34:32.:34:34.

fundamental differences hundred and 90 countries,

:34:35.:34:38.

think the one difference, one interesting point is, at the last

:34:39.:34:44.

hour of Kyoto they broke down the agreement, that it was to be a 5%

:34:45.:34:50.

cut in gas. I said, can you get another agreement. The Americans and

:34:51.:34:54.

the Japanese in the same room, we all went up 1%. That had gone

:34:55.:34:59.

through the night. That is a process, diplomacy by exhaustion. We

:35:00.:35:03.

have exactly the same year now. In regard to the gas issue, the coal

:35:04.:35:07.

issue, that is one of the central features of this organisation. They

:35:08.:35:11.

are moving more and more from coal to renewables and we are going the

:35:12.:35:15.

opposite way in this country. They are reducing the amount from coal.

:35:16.:35:19.

They have a massive programme for renewable energy. That is one major

:35:20.:35:25.

change. You say that, except climate action Tracker, on your side of this

:35:26.:35:29.

argument, has calculated that 2440 action Tracker, on your side of this

:35:30.:35:38.

around the world by 2030. I will say that again, 2440 new coal-fired

:35:39.:35:45.

stations. Yes, and that is one of the distinctive

:35:46.:35:50.

stations. Yes, and that is one of particular agreement. To move from

:35:51.:35:54.

coal, oil and gas to renewables. Most of the countries want the extra

:35:55.:36:02.

money. To transfer its energy requirements, and that is beginning

:36:03.:36:05.

to take place in a number of these countries. That is quite distinctive

:36:06.:36:11.

difference. China is opening a new coal-fired plant every week. Yes,

:36:12.:36:14.

difference. China is opening a new true, but not as fast as it was for.

:36:15.:36:18.

Why is huge, isn't it? India and China, they are still going to have

:36:19.:36:22.

coal in the mix even though they are moving to renewables. To that extent

:36:23.:36:24.

we have a principle which the moving to renewables. To that extent

:36:25.:36:30.

general secretary, general secretary of the UN has pointed out. The

:36:31.:36:34.

principle of the agreement is common but equal differential, but

:36:35.:36:39.

differentials responsibility. If you measure China, more gas than

:36:40.:36:42.

America, but if you did it per capita and tried to get a fairer way

:36:43.:36:44.

of doing it, that is what they are discussing at this present time.

:36:45.:36:50.

What is the fair burden for each country to carry? Not just the

:36:51.:36:53.

absolute output but the proportion you have to take into account.

:36:54.:36:57.

Weather is bearing the burden, whether or not it is distributed

:36:58.:37:03.

fairly, CO2 emissions will be 150% higher under existing plans, 150%

:37:04.:37:12.

higher than is consistent with a 2 degrees target, which is meant to be

:37:13.:37:17.

the limit on temperature rise even in Paris. I don't see how this...

:37:18.:37:24.

Two Celsius or 1.5, maybe the poorer countries are saying, we are already

:37:25.:37:29.

suffering. They want the rich ones to give more resources to reduce the

:37:30.:37:33.

carbon. That is a fair argument. It is how we would use it. If it is

:37:34.:37:38.

business as usual, it is disaster. One thing about this decision here

:37:39.:37:43.

in Paris is different from Kyoto, in Kyoto we argued whether the science

:37:44.:37:46.

was relevant. That was the argument. That is not the case now, they all

:37:47.:37:51.

accept that. You have to reduce the carbon level. If we go to those

:37:52.:38:02.

figures you are talking about, it is concentrating the mind to get the

:38:03.:38:07.

agreement at the last moment as we did in Kyoto. The fifth report of

:38:08.:38:12.

the IPC seat said it could not with confidence established a link

:38:13.:38:15.

between global warming trends and severe weather. It clearly does say

:38:16.:38:22.

there is a connection. Not with confidence. You just put the three

:38:23.:38:30.

words in. I work with the IPC every year. It is not sure severe weather

:38:31.:38:34.

and global weather are linked. We're not sure we will get 2% or 1.5%,

:38:35.:38:39.

that is what these arguments are about now. This is a significant

:38:40.:38:43.

factor, what is important, what governments promised and the

:38:44.:38:46.

results, will they deliver on those bonuses? We have to strengthen

:38:47.:38:50.

national parliaments with a legal framework which we gave with them

:38:51.:38:53.

climate change act, to make sure governments, when they come back

:38:54.:39:01.

here, they carry out what they promise. That has got to strengthen

:39:02.:39:05.

the legislation in national parliament and get legislators now

:39:06.:39:09.

to make sure, when governments get press by powerful interests you

:39:10.:39:12.

don't agree with theirs, begin to depart from what they have promised.

:39:13.:39:15.

I can't even believe what Cameron says about anything. The developing

:39:16.:39:21.

countries in Paris are asking, demanding as part of the agreement,

:39:22.:39:26.

that there is a transfer from the rich world to the developing world

:39:27.:39:33.

of $3.5 trillion by 2030. How can you assure British taxpayers, who

:39:34.:39:39.

are putting up a fair chunk of that, that it will be money fair spent

:39:40.:39:46.

does not well spent? It is a lot of money. It is more than what we

:39:47.:39:51.

agreed to add 100 billion a year, now. Each has to make their

:39:52.:39:56.

contribution. I am asking how can the tax payer, lose money this will

:39:57.:39:59.

be, who are watching the show right now, how do they know that money,

:40:00.:40:02.

their hard earned money will be well spent? Those people in Cumbria at

:40:03.:40:08.

the moment were told there would be one flooding what every 100 years,

:40:09.:40:11.

they are facing the consequences, they know about climate change.

:40:12.:40:17.

Every country is affected, whether in India, China or in the Lake

:40:18.:40:20.

District. We have to find the resources. Developing countries want

:40:21.:40:25.

to switch from oil and gas to renewables. You have to give them

:40:26.:40:28.

the money for the investment in renewables. We all gain from it. It

:40:29.:40:33.

is a change but all the evidence is green growth gives us a better

:40:34.:40:36.

return than we are getting from business as usual. You know what

:40:37.:40:40.

business as usual is, you quoted it. I'm saying, let's doing something

:40:41.:40:43.

about it rather than saying to the people in the Lake District, we

:40:44.:40:47.

cannot do anything about it. As we have you here and you heard the

:40:48.:40:52.

previous conversation. What is your view on airport expansion, briefly?

:40:53.:40:55.

In favour of a third runway at Heathrow or not? Yes, at Heathrow. I

:40:56.:41:01.

looked at this argument as transport Minister. I was in agreement for it.

:41:02.:41:10.

We were divided. Gordon came up with this formula to give it to an

:41:11.:41:14.

inquiry. We had the Davis inquiry. You've had the investigation on what

:41:15.:41:19.

happening now is a purely political calculation about the election for

:41:20.:41:23.

London mayor. I will be attacked the same... This attacks our

:41:24.:41:27.

environmental policies, I was being attacked for that then. You need a

:41:28.:41:31.

balance. I think it is Heathrow. We certainly need a third runway. John

:41:32.:41:35.

Prescott, thank you, good to have you on the programme again.

:41:36.:41:55.

Now, what do Boris Johnson, Muhammad Ali and more than half

:41:56.:41:58.

a million members of the public have in common?

:41:59.:42:00.

Well, they're all united in heaping opprobrium -

:42:01.:42:02.

for Steve and Anne's sake, I should point out that that means

:42:03.:42:05.

they're being critical - on the head of Republican

:42:06.:42:07.

More than 500,000 people have signed a parliamentary petition calling

:42:08.:42:11.

for him to be banned from entering the UK.

:42:12.:42:13.

It stems from his announcement earlier this week that a Trump

:42:14.:42:15.

presidency would see a ban on all Muslim people

:42:16.:42:18.

He was roundly condemned by British politicians and other public figures

:42:19.:42:21.

for that, and in response he tweeted: "The United Kingdom

:42:22.:42:24.

is trying hard to disguise their massive Muslim problem.

:42:25.:42:26.

Everybody is wise to what is happening, very sad!

:42:27.:42:31.

But while the majority of people in British public life joined

:42:32.:42:34.

in the condemnation, he had one champion ? yes,

:42:35.:42:38.

the columnist Katie Hopkins, who said:

:42:39.:42:52.

It turns out Donald is a fan of Katie's. He tweeted:

:42:53.:43:04.

Well, Katie Hopkins, columnist for the Daily Mail online,

:43:05.:43:11.

joins us now from our Plymouth studio.

:43:12.:43:13.

Welcome to the Daily Politics. You supported Donald Trump's worked on

:43:14.:43:23.

this but you also said it was totally impractical to do. How do

:43:24.:43:26.

you square that? I think what I was saying is I

:43:27.:43:30.

support the ideas behind what he is trying to do. Ultimately Donald

:43:31.:43:35.

Trump is trying to show truly do ship. The Americans felt very let

:43:36.:43:41.

down by what Obama said two days after 14 people were gunned down. I

:43:42.:43:46.

think in that kind of vacuum, what you see is Donald Trump stand up and

:43:47.:43:50.

at least say something that sounded like he wanted to protect his

:43:51.:43:55.

nation, protect America. That is what I stand behind. We need strong

:43:56.:44:00.

leadership at these times. I am personally a little tired of your

:44:01.:44:04.

BBC bias, which keeps telling us that most people support banning

:44:05.:44:10.

Donald Trump from the UK. It is only 500,000 people clicking on a mouse.

:44:11.:44:16.

When did I say most people? You went through a long list of

:44:17.:44:20.

Boris Johnson, people clicking on a petition.

:44:21.:44:24.

When did I say most British people? I have no evidence. Let's go back.

:44:25.:44:30.

Let's come back to... What about the people who do support

:44:31.:44:35.

what Trump says. I ask the questions. You said what

:44:36.:44:39.

Mr Trump says is a lot of hot air. Why is that showing leadership West

:44:40.:44:45.

Mark because sometimes, in times of real difficulty and fear what you

:44:46.:44:51.

want from your leadership is to say we're Naghemeh tolerate this, we

:44:52.:44:54.

will protect our country, that is what Donald Trump has done.

:44:55.:44:57.

If you look outside the bubble you are in, people are fearful. I work

:44:58.:45:01.

with people in London that ring their families on a daily basis to

:45:02.:45:05.

check they are OK. My family are not that keen on me going to London

:45:06.:45:09.

right now. My friends won't go there. Paris has taken a 50% cut in

:45:10.:45:14.

its tourist trade. What we see is there is fear on the streets. We may

:45:15.:45:21.

not want to acknowledge it, but why do we talk about the other petition

:45:22.:45:24.

of 400,000 signatures which people say, let's stop migration whilst we

:45:25.:45:26.

think about how we're going to protect our country? One of the

:45:27.:45:31.

things that really me is our Muslim community do not stand up and

:45:32.:45:35.

separate themselves enough for my liking from the very fearful acts of

:45:36.:45:40.

terrorism that are right here on our shores. There have been Muslim

:45:41.:45:44.

demonstrations against what has been happening. There has been Muslim

:45:45.:45:48.

leaders who have stood out and talked about and condemned what they

:45:49.:45:54.

have been doing. You seem to keep an setting a test for them, that they

:45:55.:45:58.

have to keep meeting all the time. If I may. Why is it when two

:45:59.:46:06.

families in Luton disappeared Isis and no one knows anything. Not the

:46:07.:46:10.

imam or the local community, the people they hang out with, nobody

:46:11.:46:14.

knows anything. They just upped and vanished and nobody says anything.

:46:15.:46:19.

Just speak to the police about that, teenagers are disappearing all the

:46:20.:46:20.

time. The British public are disappointed

:46:21.:46:30.

by the lack of pushback from the Muslim community. We don't see

:46:31.:46:33.

people within those communities, when we lose people to Isis, we

:46:34.:46:38.

don't hear them saying, yes, it was a terrible thing, I don't know how

:46:39.:46:42.

they got radicalised. We don't see enough of that. If Mr Trump got his

:46:43.:46:47.

way and Muslims were banned for a period from entering the United

:46:48.:46:51.

States, how would you enforce it? How would you know who was a Muslim

:46:52.:46:56.

and who wasn't? I have been clear in my article in the Daily Mail online.

:46:57.:46:59.

You cannot enforce that sort of thing. You don't have religion and

:47:00.:47:03.

announced in your passport. I said so myself. So your definition of

:47:04.:47:10.

truly do ship is to propose something that is impractical?

:47:11.:47:14.

truly do ship is to propose definition of leadership is able to

:47:15.:47:16.

stand up and say, we will not tolerate that. Of course you cannot

:47:17.:47:26.

cut the specifics, but he has a notion of a nation and he has

:47:27.:47:33.

cut the specifics, but he has a millions of supporters. That

:47:34.:47:36.

cut the specifics, but he has a what I am asking. His poll ratings

:47:37.:47:37.

have risen, and if what I am asking. His poll ratings

:47:38.:47:41.

British public, there are a lot of people behind the kind of sentiment

:47:42.:47:44.

that Donald Trump is expressing, which is that we will not tolerate

:47:45.:47:48.

being taken over by forces that make us fearful of living in our own

:47:49.:47:51.

country. And his answer to that, a us fearful of living in our own

:47:52.:47:55.

man who would be leader of the free world, is to propose something that

:47:56.:47:59.

even new, his greatest riches supporter, admits is totally

:48:00.:48:04.

impractical. I never claimed to be his greatest supporter. I will call

:48:05.:48:10.

you a number of names in return, but I am better than that. I am standing

:48:11.:48:12.

up for British people I am better than that. I am standing

:48:13.:48:16.

some agreement with his sentiment, who are clicking on an alternative

:48:17.:48:21.

petition, which the BBC are not speaking about, which says they do

:48:22.:48:24.

not want any more immigration into the UK until we can control the fear

:48:25.:48:30.

we feel in our own towns and cities. From what we know of British public

:48:31.:48:35.

opinion on this issue, the latest poll suggests that about two thirds

:48:36.:48:38.

of British people do not agree with Mr Trump. Yesterday, I was quoting

:48:39.:48:45.

figures of 25% of British people standing strongly behind him. You

:48:46.:48:52.

are now giving me an extra amount. One third of people stand behind

:48:53.:48:57.

him. That is not how polls work. Two thirds are against him. This small

:48:58.:49:02.

percentage don't know and a smaller percentage are in favour. Just

:49:03.:49:07.

before the general election, your polls told us it was neck and neck

:49:08.:49:11.

and we didn't know who would be in Number Ten. The BBC doesn't have

:49:12.:49:17.

polls. I know you don't like us, but the BBC doesn't have polls. The one

:49:18.:49:20.

poll it did have got the election spot on on the night. I think you

:49:21.:49:33.

need to show balance. You said that we have gone too far in regards to

:49:34.:49:38.

the Muslim population and "We have lost control of vast swathes of our

:49:39.:49:42.

country". Where are these vast swathes? There are plenty of places

:49:43.:49:48.

in the UK that other people can tell you and I can tell you I would not

:49:49.:49:53.

walk through. It is not legally accurate to actually name certain

:49:54.:49:57.

areas. There have been legal issues around that. There are no legal

:49:58.:50:01.

issues. Tell us these vast swathes of our country where we have lost

:50:02.:50:07.

control. If you didn't talk so much, I might be able to, darling. If I

:50:08.:50:12.

was to walk through certain areas of our population, where over 90% of

:50:13.:50:15.

people are Muslim, I wouldn't fare too well. And my friends in Jewish

:50:16.:50:19.

communities have also found they have been spat at and shouted at.

:50:20.:50:23.

They are intimidated. That is terrible behaviour, but it is not

:50:24.:50:30.

losing control. Give me an example of the vast swathes of country.

:50:31.:50:39.

Where the authorities have lost control? I know those places exist.

:50:40.:50:44.

I am later going to my child's nativity play. I am proud that my

:50:45.:50:48.

school has won, because so many don't. These days, all we can have

:50:49.:50:52.

is multi-faith assemblies, which is not something I am proud of. So you

:50:53.:50:57.

can't tell me, so you talk about your child's nativity play. I would

:50:58.:51:01.

welcome the Daily Politics to follow me as I go through some of the areas

:51:02.:51:05.

where I would be shouted at. We can't follow you unless you tell us

:51:06.:51:10.

where they are. Come with me with your cameras and see who tells me to

:51:11.:51:16.

cover up my hair, cover my face. That is not losing control. A large

:51:17.:51:23.

percentage of our population stands behind Donald Trump, and I don't

:51:24.:51:26.

think the BBC are giving that enough airtime. Katie Hopkins, thank you.

:51:27.:51:34.

Are you not amazed at the wake-up's remarks have had such traction and

:51:35.:51:41.

caused controversy in this country? I was in America when he made these

:51:42.:51:45.

remarks, and it obviously dominated there, but I came back here on

:51:46.:51:49.

Wednesday morning and it was like I hadn't left America. It has crossed

:51:50.:51:54.

the Atlantic. If you have any sympathy is with Katie Hopkins's

:51:55.:51:57.

position, not so much the practicality, as you pointed out,

:51:58.:52:10.

but you would say that he allows people to say, yes, I am very

:52:11.:52:14.

worried about what is happening in our communities. The problem that

:52:15.:52:16.

does not address, either here or in the states, as you will know, is the

:52:17.:52:24.

problem you already have to deal with. Your problem is in the

:52:25.:52:27.

communities you have and to what extent be radicalised as --

:52:28.:52:33.

deradicalisation is succeeding. To say, I would not let any more in, as

:52:34.:52:37.

if you weigh Muslims by the tonnage, is not an answer. The problem is in

:52:38.:52:43.

your communities now. That is where you need to focus. It is a red

:52:44.:52:47.

herring to say, let's not let any more in. You have to look at what is

:52:48.:52:53.

going on now. But here is the broader context, on both sides of

:52:54.:52:59.

the Atlantic. Just as Paris wrought together what is a potentially toxic

:53:00.:53:03.

mix of terrorism and immigration, because some of those involved in

:53:04.:53:08.

Paris had come through as migrants into western Europe, so the events

:53:09.:53:14.

in San Bernardino have brought together American citizenship, the

:53:15.:53:19.

Muslim community and Terrell risen. And it opens the door -- it brings

:53:20.:53:25.

together the Muslim community and terrorism. It is a toxic mix, and it

:53:26.:53:34.

is such a highly charged mix. It opens the door to all kinds of

:53:35.:53:38.

emotive arguments, which we have just heard. A lot of people would

:53:39.:53:42.

have nodded along to the views we have just heard. It doesn't mean

:53:43.:53:46.

that any of the policies that arise from that toxic mix, such as banning

:53:47.:53:57.

Muslims from coming in, as Anne points out, there was a problem with

:53:58.:54:07.

the people already here. American citizenship would not be covered by

:54:08.:54:10.

the Trump exclusion order. It is not strong leadership to articulate the

:54:11.:54:15.

range of fears brought about by that toxic mix and then come up with a

:54:16.:54:17.

totally impractical, headline grabbing policy. That is easy. The

:54:18.:54:25.

Economist has written about this. We have said this stands forever thing

:54:26.:54:28.

we don't agree with, but there is a challenge for the political class.

:54:29.:54:33.

You would think with the passion that Katy Holland kins argues,

:54:34.:54:37.

people will be thinking, that says something I feel. It does not tell

:54:38.:54:42.

you anything to do about it that you can deliver, and that is dangerous

:54:43.:54:45.

territory that a lot of politics is getting into. Well, from the sublime

:54:46.:54:48.

to a bit of the ridiculous. Now, we bring you news that

:54:49.:54:51.

Jeremy Corbyn's position has this And it's not his job as Labour

:54:52.:54:53.

leader they're after. No, it's a much more

:54:54.:55:00.

prestigious honour. Mr Corbyn is a five times

:55:01.:55:10.

winner of the award, which is given to the MP

:55:11.:55:17.

with the beard that has made Given that he is now leader

:55:18.:55:20.

of the opposition, he must have But despite shadow cabinet ally

:55:21.:55:24.

Diane Abbott last night urging her Twitter followers

:55:25.:55:31.

to lend him their votes, he was thought to be facing

:55:32.:55:37.

a late surge from rival Well, we're joined now

:55:38.:55:43.

by the man behind the award, the Beard Liberation

:55:44.:55:48.

Front's Keith Flett. And in a Daily Politics exclusive -

:55:49.:55:50.

and on this show, we take our exclusives where we can get them -

:55:51.:55:53.

he's going to reveal So first, Keith, tell us

:55:54.:55:57.

about this late surge Yes, the SNP came within a close

:55:58.:56:22.

shave. Both the SNP and Mr Corbyn's supporters. The elevation of Mr

:56:23.:56:27.

Corbyn to Labour leader must have created more interest in this. It

:56:28.:56:32.

has. I am not sure it did him a favour, because he was behind for

:56:33.:56:35.

most of the poll, until the last minute. I think being leader is

:56:36.:56:39.

different to being on the backbenches. On the backbenches, one

:56:40.:56:44.

does what one likes. Don't tell us who has won yet, but let's build up

:56:45.:56:49.

to it. Are you surprised by the winner? I am a bit, actually. Did he

:56:50.:56:56.

win by a big margin, or was it a close shave? Close shave. Who gets

:56:57.:57:01.

to vote? Anybody can vote in an online poll, but only once. So it

:57:02.:57:06.

could be fixed. We keep a close eye on that. You have anti-corruption

:57:07.:57:12.

policing. The last time I looked, SNP supporters were still tried to

:57:13.:57:16.

vote, but we took the pole down this morning. And before we find out who

:57:17.:57:21.

has won bid of the year, what does the beard represent to you? It is

:57:22.:57:30.

gravitas. It is positive in terms of the appearance. Obviously, we can

:57:31.:57:32.

all think of people where that doesn't apply, so we tend to focus

:57:33.:57:37.

on the more positive side. We will not give it to us on a Bin Laden,

:57:38.:57:41.

who is dead now anyway. He would not appreciated. Are you going to give

:57:42.:57:47.

the envelope to me? The Beard of the Year. It doesn't get better than

:57:48.:58:00.

this. He has done it again, for it is Jeremy Corbyn. Sixth time in a

:58:01.:58:09.

row? Not in a row, but he has won it six times. Very narrow this year.

:58:10.:58:14.

The SNP guy, Stuart McDonald, is another becoming beard. A tip for

:58:15.:58:20.

years to come. The star Corbyn, congratulations. You are the Beard

:58:21.:58:25.

of the Year 2015. Thank you for giving us our first exclusive in 25

:58:26.:58:26.

years. chancellor Ed Balls

:58:27.:58:34.

agreed to take part in? It is the great British bake off,

:58:35.:58:36.

British Bake Off? It is the great British bake off,

:58:37.:58:47.

and Dave is going to get the grease-proof paper when she forgets

:58:48.:58:52.

the eggs and all that. They recorded it weeks ago. I

:58:53.:58:54.

the eggs and all that. They recorded could get another scoop!

:58:55.:58:55.

The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:56.:59:00.

I'll be back on Sunday with the Sunday Politics.

:59:01.:59:05.

My guests will include former Labour leadership contender

:59:06.:59:08.

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