Browse content similar to 26/02/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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"a profound economic shock" on the UK. | :00:37. | :00:45. | |
So says George Osborne on a trip to China. | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
But is this just the latest episode of Project Fear? | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
Yesterday we were told just over 250,000 EU migrants came to the UK | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
So why did over twice that number register to work here? | :00:59. | :01:08. | |
You need to be good at sitting in small chairs and playing | :01:09. | :01:10. | |
on swings - but do education secretaries make any difference | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
How a new Labour Leader and a big decision on Trident has | :01:14. | :01:28. | |
re-invigorated the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
All that in the next hour and with us for the duration today, | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
two columnists united by their opposition to Trident - | :01:38. | :01:39. | |
but not much else - Zoe Williams of the Guardian | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
and Peter Hitchens of the Mail on Sunday. | :01:43. | :01:43. | |
First this afternoon - what's the true level of immigration | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
Yesterday the Office for National Statistics told us that | :01:50. | :01:59. | |
in the year to September last year 257,000 EU migrants entered | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
but over the same period more than twice as many EU migrants | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
630,000 in fact, registered to work in this country | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
by applying for National Insurance numbers. | :02:14. | :02:32. | |
There is a clear discrepancy and it is a discrepancy | :02:33. | :02:34. | |
numbers issued that's become increasingly visible over | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
So, are the official migration figures significantly | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
underestimating the real level of immigration? | :02:41. | :02:40. | |
We don't know because it is hard it get all the facts and figures. | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
Let's talk to Jonathan Portes of the National Institute | :02:46. | :02:47. | |
for Economic and Social Research who has been looking into this | :02:48. | :02:50. | |
Jonathan, let's begin - explain to us what is going on here? Well, the | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
office for national statistics measures the immigration figures by | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
a random sample of people coming into the country. He asks people who | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
are coming in - are you planning to stay here for more than a year? | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
That's the official international definition of what an immigrant is. | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
Those figures have by in large served us well for most of the past | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
few decades but what I noticed and you pointed out, it is an increasing | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
discrepancy between those numbers and the numbers of people who, once | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
they are here, register for a National Insurance number, which is | :03:28. | :03:30. | |
what you need to do if you want to take a job, pay tax, pay National | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
Insurance or claim benefits. Now there are good reasons for the | :03:35. | :03:36. | |
discrepancy. We have known about them for a long time, in particular, | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
if you are only here for a few months but still want to work work, | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
you would register for a National Insurance number but you wouldn't | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
officially be an immigrant but the discrepancy is large and has grown | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
by a huge amount over the past couple of years and particularly | :03:55. | :03:56. | |
apparent for European Union nationals. Something is going on and | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
we don't know why. Let's come on to the information we would need to get | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
to understand these figures in a minute. Let me put a general | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
principle to you first - would most people not think that issuing | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
National Insurance numbers - even broken down by nationality, which | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
local authority is giving them - wouldn't that be a more accurate | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
measure of people coming to this country, to works than a passenger | :04:25. | :04:31. | |
survey at airports, which we understand was underweighted for | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
airports like Stansted and Luton and others, where many were coming in | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
from Eastern Europe You can use the two surveys for different things. I | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
use the National Insurance data numbers myself to analyse the labour | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
market impact because it seems to me to be a good measure of people | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
coming here to work. But lots come here for reasons other than work. | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
They may not be picked up by the national Ince insurance | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
registration. In particular, children would be absent entirely | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
from that. Equally people who come here as students who might need a | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
National Insurance number for some reasons, for a few months or | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
seasonal workers, they are not immigrants and shupted be counted as | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
so, so are rightly excluded. Both measures tell us something useful. | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
-- they shouldn't be counted. We need to understand what the | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
differences are. And in particular, has the survey, which on the whole, | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
which has worked well in the past, has it suddenly stopped working | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
well. What information have you been trying - to be able to drill down | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
into this discrepancy, you have been trying 20 get some more information, | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
I think in particular from the HRMC. What is it you have been looking for | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
and have you managed to get it? Well, what happened was, of course, | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
the Prime Minister made some very dodgy, frankly assertions about the | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
number of EU migrants who claim benefits. He based that on this | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
data. People who register for National Insurance numbers and | :05:56. | :05:58. | |
subsequently went on to claim benefits. I asked HMRC and the DWC | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
-- if you know how many are claiming benefits, obviously you know, it is | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
the same computer system, how many are paying tax, how many are paying | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
National Insurance and so on, which of course would give us a much | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
better idea of how many people had stayed on in the country for any | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
length of time, how many of these National Insurance numbers were | :06:19. | :06:21. | |
still active as people in the labour market. First the HRMC on the orders | :06:22. | :06:29. | |
of the Treasury said we can't tell you that information because it | :06:30. | :06:31. | |
might prejudice the Prime Minister's renegotiation, somehow. Excuse me, | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
let me interpret you - the reason they gave was - if we knew the facts | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
it might prejudice the renegotiation? Yes, that is the | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
reason they gave. Were you not surprised by that? I was shocked. | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
Since the end of the renegotiation, I, of course, have asked again and | :06:50. | :06:55. | |
the reason now is - well, it would cost a few thousand, a couple of | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
thousand quid or so, and we think that's too much money to spend on | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
producing this sort of data. Before I bring our guests in, let me ask | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
you this, since you have not been able to get the data that would | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
allow you to do your job properly. What is your guess, if I can put it | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
that way, as to the best explanation for the discrepancy between the high | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
figure on National Insurance numbers, and the lower figure on | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
actual migrants being clocked as they come into the country? I | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
genuinely don't know. I have been ring round some of my other | :07:30. | :07:31. | |
colleagues in the research community over the last couple of days to see | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
if they have any good explanations. They don't know either. My guess, | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
for what it is worth, is the survey data probably is somewhat | :07:42. | :07:43. | |
understating recent levels of migration. On the other hand, it is | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
probably also true that possibly more people arecoming here from the | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
European Union on a short-term basis. So it is probably a bit of | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
both but I wouldn't want it put any numbers on t which is why we really | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
need the Government to release this data -- numbers on | :08:00. | :08:01. | |
need the Government to release this data, it is there on the computer | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
system. Whichever side you are on, on the Brexit debate or indeed on | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
free movement of workers and immigration, and as you know my | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
research show that is free movement and immigration has been very good | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
for the UK, I think it is a good thing, but whichever side of the | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
debate you are on, people outing to be properlily informed and the | :08:21. | :08:23. | |
Government ought to be forced to disclose this data. Stay with us, I | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
will bring the guests N if you are inclined to conspiracy theories, | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
this would give you a field day. -- -- guests N I look at it like | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
council tax. They know the British passenger research were low and they | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
have known it for a long time but a Government that says they will use a | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
different data set is the Government that gets hit with the negative | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
headlines. So why do you think the insurance numbers we are giving out | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
for people to work are twice as big as the numbers we are registering to | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
come in? Well I'm certainly not going to say, if Jonathan Portas | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
doesn't know, I know. There must be people the British passenger survey | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
results have been low. It has always been said. 2-1 is a big discrepancy. | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
As onthan was saying, ever since people looked at this there has been | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
some kind of discrepancy but it has been growing and growing and it is | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
now 2-1. Rather large. The figures I saw over a five-year period t comes | :09:25. | :09:32. | |
in, using EU 1 million coming n verses 2.5 million NI numbers. That | :09:33. | :09:39. | |
is crazy. Of course I'm interested but can I tell you why it is? No I | :09:40. | :09:47. | |
can't. I claim it is as Hitchens' law, all political statistics are | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
fiddled as a matter of course and the old bikini effect observed in | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
the Soviet Union, statistics are more interesting for what they | :09:56. | :09:58. | |
conceal than reveal and we obviously have a Government which has two | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
different agendas, one, to pretend to be doing something about mass | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
immigration and others who encourage it because economic policy relies on | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
T which it does it is creating a will he-page credit-funded economy. | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
That's what it wants to have. It wants large scale immigration but it | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
needs to manipulate us into believing it is against. Are you | :10:19. | :10:21. | |
claiming the Government knows a lot more people are coming in. Well you | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
do. The National Insurance figures are knowledge, which the airport | :10:27. | :10:28. | |
passenger figures are speculation. They are factual. The National | :10:29. | :10:31. | |
Insurance They are factual. The National | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
people who could be coming here to work for a short time. So they say. | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
While the official migration figures, of the year, is the | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
internationally recognised definition of a migrant. It is a bit | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
like a difference between the classic crime figures which we no | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
longer collect and the British Crime Survey which is an opinion poll. One | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
is soiled fact, the other is a mass of politically-influenced | :10:55. | :10:56. | |
speculation. It is easy to see why - why do we need it ask why the | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
Government doesn't want people to know how high the level of | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
immigration S Is it your contention that they have been deliberately | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
understating it by a huge margin, knowing all the time their figures | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
are wrong? Is that what you are saying Is South Karolina saying, | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
when you find a turtle on the fence post, you know it didn't get there | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
by accident, perhaps it is not deliberate. When did they last say | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
that there? Quite recently. Plenty of reasons to do so. Back to | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
Jonathan Portas. If we did a bit of crowd sourcing and could raise a | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
couple of thousands of pounds, could we give that to the Government to | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
give us the figures we need? I think they would say, you know, that's not | :11:40. | :11:47. | |
how it works. I mean, I think they will eventually have to release more | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
data, but unfortunately we are in this period when, you know, they | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
have been publishing bits and snipts of it. They published a few more | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
bits and snippets last Friday, at the same time the Government | :12:01. | :12:03. | |
released its white paper on the renegotiation. But we need to be | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
able to seat underlying data, the tables, all the rest which would | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
actually give us this information. -- see the underlying data. I think | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
Peter is exaggerating, I don't think it is a maligned conspiracy to | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
conceal things from the British public but I do think the Government | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
is deliberately holding back on releasing information that would | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
undermine the story. I didn't say the words "malign" or "conspiracy." | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
People do actually get together privately to pursue purposes they | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
wish to conceal from everybody else. You may call it a conspiracy in the | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
hope of dismissing it and make us think of hushed conversations by | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
people wearing Guy Fawkes' hats but people do that and this he do it in | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
Government. Whether it is malign or not, I would say it was, you may not | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
think so. But be careful with the language you use to dismiss honest | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
sceptical about Government obfuscation. | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
We are here at the Daily Politics, interested in the fact, they | :13:08. | :13:10. | |
intrigue us. It is the basis of the questions we ask. If there is | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
anything we can do to help in your pursuit of these important facts, | :13:15. | :13:17. | |
Now it's time for our daily quiz. today. | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
The question for today is: which of these political parties | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
has neither of our guests been a member of? | :13:27. | :13:28. | |
At the end of the show Peter and Zoe will give us the correct answer. | :13:29. | :13:44. | |
They'll fess up and tells us which ones they have been members of and | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
which one they haven't. I know the reason. -- I know the answer. | :13:51. | :13:57. | |
Now, we've seen some Johnny-come-latelies won | :13:58. | :13:58. | |
round to the cause but there's a party that's been | :13:59. | :14:00. | |
campaigning for a British exit from the EU for more than 20 years | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
So, as Britain decides how to vote in June's referendum, | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
UKIP are meeting in Llandudno this weekend to ready | :14:08. | :14:09. | |
But the party's Scottish MEP, David Coburn, already knows what big | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
issue he'll be campaigning on - toasters. | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
Yes, Mr Coburn has complained that EU rules meant his toaster | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
was under-powered: "Mine's on full boost and my bread's | :14:21. | :14:31. | |
(That was a Scottish expression for pale." | :14:32. | :14:40. | |
My old toaster seemed to be powered by the Torness nuclear reactor | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
and this one is powered by some kind of EU windmill." | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
Yes, Andrew, two old faces popped up in new jobs. | :14:48. | :14:55. | |
Diane James MEP for South East England and William Dartmouth MEP | :14:56. | :14:58. | |
for the South West were this week appointed as Deputy Chairmen, | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
replacing the former Conservative MP turned UKIP candidate Neil Hamilton | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
who earlier this year missed out on becoming UKIP's candidate | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
The theory is she got burnt because she's following in | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
the footsteps of UKIP's only Westminster MP, Douglas Carswell, | :15:16. | :15:17. | |
which is to support the Vote Leave campaign in the European referendum | :15:18. | :15:20. | |
rather than the Leave.EU campaign and Grassroots Out, | :15:21. | :15:22. | |
which are being bankrolled by UKIP's big donor, | :15:23. | :15:24. | |
Someone else who became toast this week is John Atkinson, | :15:25. | :15:37. | |
in Carmarthen West because of a long-running row about how | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
the party selects people to stand in the elections | :15:41. | :15:42. | |
Some other high-profile Eurosceptics have appeared. | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
Now that Boris Johnson and Michael Gove are campainging | :15:48. | :15:49. | |
have they taken a slice out of the attention usually | :15:50. | :15:57. | |
I hope for your sake that Jo Co was not watching! LAUGHTER | :15:58. | :16:14. | |
And we're joined now from Stoke by UKIP's deputy leader, | :16:15. | :16:17. | |
Why is it that Nigel Farage seemed to turn on anybody that he sees as a | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
threat? If you are referring to Suzanne | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
Evans and Neil Hamilton being removed, we may declare, they are | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
both standing in the elections, they will both have a huge role to play | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
after May the 6th. Hopefully from within those respective assemblies. | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
Neil from within the Welsh assembly, I believe that he will be elected, | :16:41. | :16:43. | |
and hopefully Suzanne will be elected to the London assembly. We | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
need people who are able to campaign full-time, Diane James and William | :16:50. | :16:52. | |
Dartmouth are taking over roles particularly to look at security and | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
deal with the issues of trade. Hold on, Ukip did not come into existence | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
to have people on the Welsh of the London assembly is, you came into | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
existence to take Britain out of the European Union. You have now got a | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
chance to do that, with a referendum. Why would assemblies | :17:10. | :17:16. | |
take precedence over your resonant that the? Ukip was created to take | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
on the European Union but we are no longer a pressure group that is | :17:23. | :17:25. | |
simply there to push other political parties and we are no longer single | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
issue. -- why would assemblies take precedence over your raison d'etre? | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
We have people elected in all four quarters of the kingdom, we are | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
unique in that way in political parties there. That matters more | :17:41. | :17:47. | |
whether you win or lose? No, listen, look, of course, the primary goal is | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
to get us out of the European Union, equally, as a fully fledged | :17:54. | :17:55. | |
political party, we will be concentrating on those elections as | :17:56. | :18:02. | |
well. You say that you seem to waste energy on personal score settling, | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
internal feuds, moving people around, joining organisations now | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
that are so complicated that even people like me, who are paid to keep | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
across it, cannot even keep track of all of the different names. You only | :18:16. | :18:23. | |
have 17 weeks, which one are you in? What you mean? Am I him | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
grassroots... Which one? Are you in the People's public of Judaea or the | :18:28. | :18:34. | |
Judaea and is People's front(!) Ukip MEPs have made it clear that we are | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
backing grassroots out but when the designation is given, then we will | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
support the same campaign. What I want to appeal, to full glee, is | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
this, but personalities aside, come together, let's have one unified | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
Leave campaign. Then why has your leader sacked... People who have | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
gone to the other side...? INAUDIBLE She has sacked... He does not like | :19:01. | :19:07. | |
vote leaves, that is the truth. The truth is, Suzanne is standing in the | :19:08. | :19:13. | |
London assembly election, writing the manifesto, and we need people | :19:14. | :19:19. | |
who can work full time to campaign on the referendum. Look, Andrew, | :19:20. | :19:26. | |
Andrew, Andrew, Suzanne... Let me finish, Suzanne and kneel, | :19:27. | :19:29. | |
hopefully, we'll be able to campaign on the referendum issue after Mavis | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
is, when they are both elected to their assemblies, they will have | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
huge part to play in the future of Ukip, beyond being elected to the | :19:39. | :19:47. | |
assemblies. -- Suzanne and Neil. Is there also talk of suspending | :19:48. | :19:50. | |
Douglas Carswell, you're only MP, over his support for votes leave? | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
That is the first I have heard of it. But it this way, it is something | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
I will certainly be opposing, and it is the first I have heard of it, | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
this will not be happening. Period. Now that Michael Gove and Boris | :20:04. | :20:10. | |
Johnson seem to have signed up for votes leave, doesn't that mean that | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
is likely to be the organisation that the electoral commission will | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
choose as the official voice, the group that gets the money to | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
campaign to leave the European Union? It is a big boost, but at the | :20:24. | :20:30. | |
same time, the electoral commission will look at which organisation is | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
most cross party, Grassroots Out has people from all walks, it has people | :20:35. | :20:42. | |
from Ukip, labour, like Kate Hoey, even George Galloway, from respect. | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
I think it is up in the air, but we want the same thing, all of us. We | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
all want to leave the European Union. Campaigns are not | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
contradictory, they are, entry. I hope that personalities can be put | :20:57. | :21:05. | |
aside. -- Bayard complimentary. -- they are, the mentoring. The Prime | :21:06. | :21:13. | |
Minister appears to put the case under half of all of those you want | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
to stay in the EU, he puts the case for remain. Who puts the case for | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
leave on that same programme? Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage? I would be | :21:24. | :21:30. | |
amazed if there is a head-to-head debate... I'm not even talking | :21:31. | :21:33. | |
head-to-head, I mean one after another. And Question Time audience, | :21:34. | :21:43. | |
David Dimbleby, David Cameron giving the case for staying; who will then | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
follow to give the case to leave? Boris Johnson, or Nigel Farage? I | :21:49. | :21:54. | |
think that is a decision that Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage will have | :21:55. | :22:02. | |
to look at. Who would you prefer? I would prefer to put it out to | :22:03. | :22:05. | |
internal polling, who is most popular with different parts of | :22:06. | :22:12. | |
society and communities. I do not know who can appeal to the most | :22:13. | :22:19. | |
white section of people, Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, I will take | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
you ever can be most popular. The Chancellor is on a trade mission, | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
this is what he had to say to the BBC buzz political editor, about the | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
economic danger of withdrawing from the EU. -- BBC's political editor. | :22:33. | :22:40. | |
I think the global economy is facing more risk and more uncertainty | :22:41. | :22:42. | |
at any point since the financial crisis in 2008. | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
So this would be the very worse time for Britain to take the enormous | :22:46. | :22:48. | |
economic gamble of leaving the European Union. | :22:49. | :22:50. | |
You have seen the value of the pound fall and it reminds us all that this | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
This is about people's jobs and their livelihoods | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
And in my judgment, as Chancellor, leaving the EU would represent | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
a profound economic shock for our country, for all of us | :23:02. | :23:04. | |
and I'm doing to do everything I can to prevent that happening. | :23:05. | :23:14. | |
The Chancellor, in China, does it not concern you, that's not a single | :23:15. | :23:21. | |
major economic partner to this country, of the biggest economies in | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
the world, wants us to leave the European Union? Not one of them. I | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
am more concerned about my own country, I am more concerned about | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
the kind of country that I will hand onto my child... They are our | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
trading partners. Who will we trade with? Actually, if we left the | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
European Union, we could sign free-trade deals with these | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
countries all over the world, we do not have a seat on the World Trade | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
Organisation, the EU signs things on our behalf, and it is not proven | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
very good. INAUDIBLE All of the other 19 to 20... Of | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
them, that we trade with and export, we import, they are our economic | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
partners, not one of them wants us to leave the EU, is that | :24:09. | :24:09. | |
significant... Are wasted testing that if we left | :24:10. | :24:19. | |
the European Union they would cease to trade with us, -- are we | :24:20. | :24:22. | |
suggesting. We the fifth largest economy in the world, I am more | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
interested by what the British people will say, them by what | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
leaders of other countries will say. This is about Britain and our | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
future, I believe we will be more free, more democratic, stronger, and | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
outside of the European Union. Angular joining us. Between now and | :24:38. | :24:45. | |
June 23, we will get the opportunity to speak several more times, I know | :24:46. | :24:48. | |
that you will look forward to that. Peter, does it matter that there is | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
all of these different out groups and they seem to be squabbling among | :24:53. | :24:58. | |
themselves? Is it just... Is it just inside the Beltway, that view of | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
things? Of course it matters, they will do each other damage, they have | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
already done each other damage, it is laughable, it makes people think | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
these people are not serious, it is a grave danger to the campaign that | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
they act like this, it is a sign that they do not have true unity, as | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
opposed out campaign has begun to include quite large numbers of | :25:19. | :25:21. | |
important people do do not believe that Britain should leave the | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
European Union, Dick Italy Boris Johnson and now Michael Howard. | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
Neither of them want that, they want to put themselves at the head of the | :25:31. | :25:33. | |
out campaign so they can turn it into a second referendum campaign. | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
-- particularly Boris Johnson and now Michael Howard. Semi-other | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
people, in economic terms, this has never been an economic question, -- | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
so many other people. This is a political project, it own leaders | :25:49. | :25:51. | |
have always understood it has economic downside, particularly the | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
euro, it is always had political priorities, the only country in | :25:56. | :25:58. | |
Europe in which the European Union is discussed as an economic issue. | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
It is a political issue whether we are to be a self-governing country | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
or not. The division, the almost total inability of large numbers of | :26:07. | :26:09. | |
people to even see this makes a serious debate very nearly | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
impossible. In recent years, if you listened to the speeches of George | :26:15. | :26:20. | |
Osborne or David Cameron, you got a constant stream of Euroscepticism. | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
Sometimes quite virulent Euroscepticism. Doesn't that | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
undermine the credibility when it comes on to television now, and | :26:29. | :26:31. | |
suddenly he becomes the great Europhile? It does, there is a lot | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
of addiction coming on, surprising to hear a lot of people suddenly | :26:37. | :26:39. | |
saying we are the fifth largest economy in the world, when they have | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
spent five years saying how broke we are. -- there is a lot of | :26:44. | :26:49. | |
contradiction coming on. What is it, either we are a Goliath all we are | :26:50. | :26:56. | |
David. The other, they have kind of marshalled and levied this | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
Euroscepticism, it is a crowd pleasing thing. Just to prove how | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
plucky they are. With no real sense of following it through. Now they | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
are in the difficult position of making what is not even an economic | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
argument, it is a purely fiscal argument. We will be rich if we do | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
this, and poorer if we do that. That will not set on fire anybody's | :27:18. | :27:24. | |
heart. There is a very profound philosophical difference between the | :27:25. | :27:27. | |
kind of little Englander, wanting everything being back to the way | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
that it was, no immigration, a return to British greatness, which | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
is... Why do you call that little Englander, if it is a return to | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
greatness, surely it is the reverse of that...! Sorry, I did not mean to | :27:44. | :27:49. | |
be dismissive. No, I do get tired of that... That term... It is in a | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
talented, but I did not mean it is to be pejorative. In the hedge fund | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
vision, Lena, five eyes, allied with America. Free trade. Nothing about | :27:59. | :28:00. | |
going back to the way that things America. Free trade. Nothing about | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
work, nothing about putting the working man at the centre of | :28:05. | :28:07. | |
everything. -- leaner. All about rabbit free markets. Full. . -- | :28:08. | :28:18. | |
raided free markets. -- rabid. You will still be under the control of | :28:19. | :28:24. | |
the WTO, and all others interfering, the European Union is an old | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
problem, to some extent, globalism has now taken over a lot of the | :28:29. | :28:31. | |
things it used to do. We will move on now, because it is also | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
springtime to the greens today. They're holding their shindig | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
in Harrogate from where we're joined Wildie Green Party the campaigning | :28:41. | :28:47. | |
strongly to keep us in the European Union? We will be calling for us to | :28:48. | :28:54. | |
remain in the EU. -- will the Green Party. We are really gearing up at | :28:55. | :29:00. | |
the conference in Harrogate but we also focusing the election campaign, | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
we saw membership more than treble, 1.1 million votes in the general | :29:06. | :29:08. | |
election, more votes in every general election we have had | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
previously added together! Now we are focusing on the referendum but | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
also focusing on turning the green surge into green seats in the London | :29:17. | :29:20. | |
assembly, the Wales assembly and the council elections up and down the | :29:21. | :29:23. | |
country. White is the party united behind you in wanting to stay in the | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
European Union, do you have your own Eurosceptic wing? | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
-- is the party united behind you in wanting to stay | :29:33. | :29:34. | |
in the European Union, do you have your own | :29:35. | :29:36. | |
In Bournemouth we had a call for a strong bold Remain campaign, about | :29:37. | :29:46. | |
95% supported that. Of course, like everybody, everybody has people who | :29:47. | :29:49. | |
have different views, in the Green Party it is easier to accommodate | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
that and understand it. We understand people can express their | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
own views honestly and faithfully, expressing their principled and | :29:58. | :30:00. | |
their values. And we do not have any problem with that. You have lost one | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
of your most prominent members to the other side, why is Jenny Jones | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
taking a different view from you? Jenny has taken a position for | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
decades, and as I said, I have no problem with that, but what we are | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
saying is the Green Party is, we breathe European air, it does not | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
stop at the borders! We have the waters, the seas... I thought that | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
most of the wind of this country comes in the Atlantic! It does not | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
blow in from France, it is North Atlantic air of! That is why it is | :30:33. | :30:33. | |
so fresh A We need to get clean air, clean | :30:34. | :30:46. | |
seas. We celebrate the free movement of people in the EU. And the free | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
movement of air apparently. Work cooperatively, freely. I think if | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
you look at the other side, they seem very keen it talk about fish | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
and seem to act like they think fish have passports and stop at borders. | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
They are not our fish. They are fish stocks that have to be managed | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
sustainably for the future for everybody and that's how we have to | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
work, cooperatively, internationally, for the good of the | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
future. Do you think anybody is going tloisen to you. Aren't you | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
losing members to Mr Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party now? - -- is going to | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
listen to you? Very much not. We are seeing retention. You are losing | :31:28. | :31:33. | |
members. Well members move around after elections. A number of your | :31:34. | :31:36. | |
members have moved to Mr Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party. Well, we are | :31:37. | :31:44. | |
seeing real success in elections. Two county councillors elected in | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
elections in Dorset and over in Shropshire. Other only 3% in the | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
poll. And just this morning... You are 3%. Well, I think what you will | :31:55. | :32:01. | |
see is, we got 1.1 million votes in the general election. That was then, | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
you are now down to 3% Accumulatively, together. We have a | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
situation now where up and down the country and in London and Wales, | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
these are, propartial ate election, like the Westminster elections | :32:15. | :32:17. | |
should be. These are ex-wills that we can win, grow, we can win our | :32:18. | :32:23. | |
first members on the Wales Assembly and grow the number of councillors | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
up and down the country. Looking for directiveness on this. We won a bye | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
election overnight. We are growing, developing in local communities | :32:33. | :32:35. | |
where people really want a new broom sweeping through. People are fed up, | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
particularly with one party states but also with councils where there | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
are real two-party dish, bash, Bosch politics. People want new ideas, | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
ideas for the future, initiatives. I'm not sure, Bishop, bash or bosch | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
are running in this referendum but if you are the new broom. We have | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
seen a lot of that already. Let me ask a question - why is it that the | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
BNP - a party I thought no longer existed - why did they manage it | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
raise more money in the last quarter of 2015 than the Green Party? I | :33:09. | :33:17. | |
think the Green Party, we don't have millionaire or multimillionaire | :33:18. | :33:19. | |
hedge funds towards us. Neither does the BNP. In the general election, a | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
huge amount of money was raised through crowdfunding. People giving | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
us ?5 or ?10. I'm seeing that starting up again. They didn't in | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
the last few months Where we can elect more grooeps on to councils | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
and our first Greens on the Welsh Assembly and grow our London | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
Assembly representation. Thank you for joining us. | :33:44. | :33:46. | |
You'll need to know your times tables, be good at sitting on small | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
chairs and make sure you're not caught out in a spelling test. | :33:50. | :33:52. | |
What other qualifications do you need if you want to be | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
Could you be responsible for the hopes and dreams of every | :33:58. | :34:18. | |
pupil and parent out there and still keep teachers happy? | :34:19. | :34:21. | |
So, you want to be Secretary of State for Education? | :34:22. | :34:23. | |
Local authorities ran education and universities very | :34:24. | :34:25. | |
So, the thought that a Secretary of State for Education, | :34:26. | :34:34. | |
in the early '90s was actually running education, | :34:35. | :34:35. | |
Well, traditional trade union antagonism to any forward change | :34:36. | :34:43. | |
in the education field was not unfamiliar to me, not least | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
because I had been a teacher but I was surprised | :34:49. | :34:51. | |
that they were not enthused, as clearly and as quickly | :34:52. | :34:54. | |
I had absolutely no idea what floor my office | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
was on and I had to go back to the security guard and say, | :34:59. | :35:09. | |
"I'm terribly sorry, I'm the new Secretary of State, | :35:10. | :35:11. | |
I have no idea where my office is, any chance you can come | :35:12. | :35:14. | |
None of us were macho women and all of us tried to run a more | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
conciliatory department and all of us knew that if we didn't | :35:20. | :35:22. | |
be careful, the word around Whitehall would be that the women | :35:23. | :35:24. | |
I view it as one of the best posts in Government | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
because you can do quite a lot and you can influence things | :35:29. | :35:31. | |
Jill Rutter is a former senior civil servant and now | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
She says Secretary of State for Education is a job that's | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
Secretary of State for Education is one of the roles that has changed | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
30 years ago, it was a pretty hands-off department, | :35:46. | :35:48. | |
operated by issuing circulars to local authorities | :35:49. | :35:50. | |
Since the invention of the National Curriculum | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
in the late '80s, things have really started to change. | :35:56. | :35:57. | |
We saw that and then we saw things like David Blunkett's literacy hour | :35:58. | :36:00. | |
and then from 2010 we have seen a mass move towards academies | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
Now the Department of Education has a direct relationship with large | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
numbers of schools and it is trying to get a grip | :36:12. | :36:13. | |
Lord Baker, who launched the National Curriculum, | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
says education hasn't always had far-sighted Secretaries of State. | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
There is a picture gallery in the Department of Education | :36:23. | :36:24. | |
of all the Secretaries of State for Education since the war | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
and there are two lines now and I've known all of them except two | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
and some of them have been birds of passage, | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
there for a few months, there for a couple of years, | :36:38. | :36:40. | |
having little interest or effect, making sure the boat doesn't sink | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
under them and protecting their backsides, as it, | :36:44. | :36:45. | |
And others have been very good, since. | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
One of those regarded as a big reformer says he was confident | :36:51. | :36:53. | |
I used to joke that I'd get some satisfaction in my dotage, | :36:54. | :37:00. | |
drinking a nice glass of red wine and reflecting back that | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
although people may not remember who it was that had done it, | :37:06. | :37:07. | |
there were things that were going to still be there, | :37:08. | :37:10. | |
working well, transforming the lives of young people and I'm looking | :37:11. | :37:12. | |
Reform is impossible for any Government, | :37:13. | :37:18. | |
Some of whom aren't your allies, but you need them. | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
The thing that I used to have to say to fellow ministers, | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
frankly, who used to say - well can't you do something about... | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
I mean the fact is, no minister can be in every classroom. | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
The person that is in every classroom is a teacher | :37:39. | :37:40. | |
and so you have to have a well-motivated, really well-trained | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
Alan Johnson agreed but found it wasn't the teachers | :37:45. | :37:50. | |
The biggest problem we had wasn't with that, it's what to teach. | :37:51. | :37:57. | |
Everyone tells you they want this in the curriculum, | :37:58. | :37:59. | |
they want that in the curriculum and particularly, you know | :38:00. | :38:02. | |
the nostalgaists, who want what was in their curriculum in | :38:03. | :38:14. | |
1944, "We should resuscitate it", and the school day would have | :38:15. | :38:17. | |
to last for 25 hours to get even half of what people wanted | :38:18. | :38:19. | |
Once you started that, you need schools, which you don't | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
We were saying that - here is what we are about, | :38:24. | :38:28. | |
here is why we have a common purpose and these are the things | :38:29. | :38:31. | |
which we think we can do together, to deliver what you want, | :38:32. | :38:34. | |
which is your school doing better and children in your school | :38:35. | :38:37. | |
achieving and that sense of hearts and minds and winning | :38:38. | :38:39. | |
If we had said - here's an injunction, they just weren't going | :38:40. | :38:46. | |
In Ken Clarke's day, the civil servants urged him | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
They didn't think I was getting into schools enough. | :38:51. | :38:59. | |
I won't say which of my predecessors... | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
Ted Short it was, they said, "Oh he used to go seven or eight | :39:04. | :39:06. | |
I wondered what on earth Ted thought he had been doing in seven or eight | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
I also strongly suspected that they wanted to get me out | :39:12. | :39:20. | |
of the office and stop me doing things. | :39:21. | :39:22. | |
And just send me around doing the pictures for the local paper | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
and the handshakes with the headteachers and, | :39:26. | :39:27. | |
But Ed Balls found he caused enough mischief when he was in schools. | :39:28. | :39:33. | |
I'm afraid I'm responsible for rather more extra school discos | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
I always use to say to the kids - do you think you need more discos? | :39:38. | :39:45. | |
Massive roars of approval and the headteacher would sit | :39:46. | :39:47. | |
there and think - my goodness, why did we invite this guy? | :39:48. | :39:53. | |
Charles Clarke liked being invited to do the job. | :39:54. | :39:55. | |
He didn't much like being asked to move on. | :39:56. | :39:57. | |
I had been President of the National Union of Students. | :39:58. | :40:00. | |
I had first come into working in national politics | :40:01. | :40:02. | |
for Neil Kinnock when he was Jim Callaghan's Shadow Secretary | :40:03. | :40:05. | |
I believed and believe that good education policy is the core | :40:06. | :40:12. | |
I was very sad when Tony Blair asked me to move. | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
In fact, I had an argument about it at that time when he was offering me | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
the role of Home Secretary because I felt it was such | :40:23. | :40:24. | |
Estelle Morris thought the same and famously stood down as Secretary | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
of State, having been a successful Schools Minister. | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
If I'm honest with myself, if I'm really honest with myself, | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
as much and I just don't think I'm as good at it | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
I'm not having second best in a post as important as this. | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
I wanted to spend much more time on the business in the department | :40:47. | :40:55. | |
And there are two bits of Secretary of State. | :40:56. | :41:03. | |
You have got to run your department, which I think I did quite - | :41:04. | :41:06. | |
I think I could do but there is another bit and it is crucial | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
and it doesn't exist in the Minister of State, | :41:11. | :41:12. | |
you have to manage politics across Whitehall. | :41:13. | :41:14. | |
Estelle Morris was excellent at the job and I was really sad | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
that - and this applies too often to really good people - | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
that her confidence was knocked when she was Secretary of State. | :41:24. | :41:25. | |
You do need enormous confidence which sometimes | :41:26. | :41:27. | |
If you can get the balance right without being an absolute prig | :41:28. | :41:37. | |
on the one hand and being afraid you are not doing a good job | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
on the other, that's the balance you are always trying to seek. | :41:42. | :41:48. | |
It seems a job ensuring the good teaching of lessons to children | :41:49. | :41:51. | |
can often teach those doing it lessons about politics. | :41:52. | :41:59. | |
Our Giles on the Secretary of State for Education. Who has been the most | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
effective in recent years, do you think? It infuriates me this | :42:06. | :42:08. | |
conversation, they talk about it as if they are making political | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
decisions. The current Secretary of State for Education has absolutely | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
changed the early years curriculum and made schools' lives a nightmare. | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
Morale is really low among teachers. Five-year-olds are being told they | :42:22. | :42:28. | |
are failures, routinely and we kind of have these object truce air diet | :42:29. | :42:31. | |
conversations about whether you want to be across Whitehall or across the | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
department. I asked you who was the most effective in recent years? | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
Clearly not the current one in your view. Effective sno sn who has had | :42:40. | :42:49. | |
the most effect. Tony Crossland in 1965 by abillionishing selection. | :42:50. | :42:56. | |
And another one and two vandals. All the rest have been failing to repair | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
the damage they Z Estelle Morris, terribly nice person and all the | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
rest, David Blunkett atrociously he set into law that you could open no | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
new selective schools in the state system, he should possibly join | :43:10. | :43:11. | |
them. They have all been effective. You don't like any of them. No, | :43:12. | :43:16. | |
education in this, state education in this country is a colossal dises | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
aer. We have had four sets of statistics in reports this week | :43:22. | :43:24. | |
showing the teachings of maths has declined. That children from poor | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
homes can get nowhere in our society. This is all the result of | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
the same thing, the destruction of selection. It is the result of | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
people being Secretary of State who have never been teachers. It is | :43:37. | :43:38. | |
particularly pronounced in recent years. They literally have no | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
expertise at all. They do not listen to any of the people who have done | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
the work on it and sprinkle in completely ignorant policies which | :43:48. | :43:49. | |
change peoples lives. They have too much control. Once you have got rid | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
of the principle that good schools could govern themselves, which was | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
quite possible in a selective system, and you have endless | :43:59. | :44:01. | |
interference of national curriculums and centralisation. Well... And | :44:02. | :44:07. | |
nationalisation which is what the academy system involves, total | :44:08. | :44:12. | |
central control of the schools, it's catastrophic, the meddling in | :44:13. | :44:14. | |
schools by ministers in Whitehall, will not put schools right. You have | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
to create conditions in which good schools can thrive and flourish and | :44:19. | :44:25. | |
that means academic selection. It is infuriating to agree with 50% of | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
what you say and disagree violently with the other 50% I absolutely | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
agree. The problem s the expertise is in the wrong hand. It is being | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
centralised. It is the arrogance of Government ministers thinking they | :44:40. | :44:41. | |
can run something they do not understand. Why would someone on the | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
left like you favour a system which supports the rich? I don't support | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
the current system. I have been complaining for it. Why are you in | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
favour of the fairer system? I'm in the? Why not, it was much better | :44:55. | :44:57. | |
than before. Actually it wasn't better for the poor. If you look at | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
counties where grammar schools are still in operation, pupils on free | :45:02. | :45:05. | |
school meals do worse. If you look kaent, it serves the poor very much | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
worse than neighbouring counties. That's bus they are a tiny besieged | :45:10. | :45:16. | |
rump. So, we have evidence of the system that you laud, and because | :45:17. | :45:20. | |
the evidence doesn't suit you. In Northern Ireland which retains a | :45:21. | :45:22. | |
selective system the prospect for poor children, particularly of | :45:23. | :45:24. | |
getting to University rch better than they are on the mainland I | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
don't understand why your data has to take precedence over mine. Better | :45:30. | :45:31. | |
data. Remember the days when the Campaign | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
for Nuclear Disarmament could get thousands and thousands | :45:38. | :45:40. | |
of people on to the streets? Well, it's happening | :45:41. | :45:42. | |
again this weekend. CND reckon their anti-trident march | :45:43. | :45:44. | |
planned for London tomorrow will be And it's back to the drawing board | :45:45. | :45:46. | |
for the artist who provided many of the period's | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
most striking images, I could have gone to an exhibition | :45:51. | :46:07. | |
about gardens at the Royal Academy, instead, I have come clean the real | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
War Museum, to see work of Paul Kennard, you may not know the name, | :46:13. | :46:15. | |
but surely you know his famous version of this eye Constable. This | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
is when cruise missiles were coming to Britain, the idea was that they | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
would circulate around the countryside, and as the Tories said, | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
in Parliament, don't worry about them, they will melt into the | :46:29. | :46:33. | |
countryside! Originally I had a lot more bits, skeletons hanging out the | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
window, but with montage, if you put into much, it reduces it. There was | :46:39. | :46:42. | |
a colour one done as a postcard, and it was in a lot of shops. I heard a | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
lot about Americans buying it and sending it back to Texas! In Peter's | :46:48. | :46:55. | |
eyes, he and I do the same thing. You going to a gallery these days, | :46:56. | :47:02. | |
you stop thinking, your art is about adoration, much more, that is | :47:03. | :47:05. | |
becoming more and more so with the art market, the mass prices, and so | :47:06. | :47:13. | |
I want to show that you can make art that talks to society. That is what | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
it did in the past, that is why did, and that is what a lot of arts did | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
in the past. People wanted to get the news from the art. You can still | :47:22. | :47:30. | |
do that, in this situation. -- that is what Goya did. This was make the | :47:31. | :47:32. | |
Labour Party in the early 1980s. People went to get the news, | :47:33. | :47:41. | |
almost from the art. You can still do that | :47:42. | :47:44. | |
in a gallery situation. So this picture was made | :47:45. | :47:46. | |
for the Labour Party in the early 1980s and they were | :47:47. | :47:49. | |
unilateral at the time. And they wanted to use a very strong | :47:50. | :47:51. | |
image to show that we could actually get rid of nuclear weapons | :47:52. | :47:54. | |
and that's what I came up with. You can see the Labour Party | :47:55. | :47:57. | |
logo there and then, hopefully, this has become relevant | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
again as we are talking about the possibility of getting | :48:01. | :48:02. | |
rid of nuclear weapons. Has Labour asked | :48:03. | :48:04. | |
you for a new poster? But the current | :48:05. | :48:06. | |
Labour Leader is fan. He does paint. | :48:07. | :48:09. | |
I don't know if you knew. No, I didn't. | :48:10. | :48:11. | |
He does do some painting himself. He is very into culture. | :48:12. | :48:13. | |
Is he any good? And Peter's been involved in picking | :48:14. | :48:15. | |
new images for the placards that are to be used at this weekend's | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
anti-Trident march which CND reckon is going to be the biggest | :48:20. | :48:22. | |
since the '80s. STUDIO: Joining us now, Labour MP, | :48:23. | :48:32. | |
former defence minister, John speller. Welcome to the programme. | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
Saturday is to be the national campaign day to support remaining in | :48:37. | :48:39. | |
the European Union, for Labour, Jeremy Corbyn... Is going to speak | :48:40. | :48:47. | |
at a CN deal... Does that suggest to you that abolishing nuclear weapons | :48:48. | :48:50. | |
is more important to him than staying in the EU? -- John Spellar. | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
The rally, where he is appearing, with the leaders of the SNP, Plaid | :48:57. | :49:03. | |
Cymru, and the greens, it is not necessarily the best use of time. -- | :49:04. | :49:09. | |
CND. Apart from the EU, I would say that the issue of weekend deaths in | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
hospitals, where David Cameron this week put out some quite spurious | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
figures, that should be the main focus of political campaigning this | :49:20. | :49:22. | |
weekend, rather than trying to overturn a policy which was agreed | :49:23. | :49:26. | |
after a very full discussion in the Labour Party, we ran it in the | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
manifesto in the general election. Your party is now led by a man who | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
has been a unilateral nuclear disarmament board his entire life, | :49:37. | :49:41. | |
entirely convinced on this issue, it believes that increasing numbers of | :49:42. | :49:44. | |
people who have joined the Labour Party take that position as well. It | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
is only natural, surely, that he would want to campaign to make that | :49:50. | :49:52. | |
party policy. Actually, we do not just select one person and adopt all | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
of his views, otherwise we would abolish party conference! Is not | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
asking for that to happen, he believes there is a growing tide of | :50:03. | :50:05. | |
unilateral and nuclear disarmament in his own party, that he agrees | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
with and would like to encourage because he thinks he can make it | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
policy. I don't know if you saw the conference of the GMB, Major | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
affiliated union of the Labour Party, that took place this week, | :50:18. | :50:23. | |
there was a very strong feeling from the organised working class, | :50:24. | :50:26. | |
represented by that union, that very much we should stick with current | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
policy. Rankin, that David Cameron should get on with it and call a | :50:32. | :50:34. | |
vote in the House of Commons and we should be ordering the new | :50:35. | :50:38. | |
submarines. That was party policy hammered out. -- frankly, that David | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
Cameron should get on with it. I remember being involved in many of | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
them. Perhaps now you are a different party. On the programme | :50:47. | :50:50. | |
yesterday we looked at recent polling, on the attitudes of the | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
members of your party, a huge influx, only 40% of your members now | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
were members when Ed Miliband became leader in 2010. How money people? | :51:00. | :51:05. | |
This may well be a different and new party. Voters have not changed. New | :51:06. | :51:11. | |
party, new policy. Voters have not changed, the manifesto we presented | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
less than one year ago, has not changed. Labour members of | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
Parliament, Tom Watson, the deputy leader, he pointed it out, very | :51:20. | :51:27. | |
strongly, yesterday. They voted on that, and we will be, many of us | :51:28. | :51:32. | |
will be voting for that. When David Cameron finally puts it before the | :51:33. | :51:35. | |
House of Commons. Indeed, if anything, since the policy was drawn | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
up, international situation has become more precarious. The invasion | :51:40. | :51:45. | |
of Crimea, and also, Russia revamping its nuclear arsenal. Emily | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
Formby says that she would like a proper debate inside the party, when | :51:50. | :51:53. | |
she says that, on the future of Trident, you have already made up | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
your mind? The party has made up its mind, we had a debate, we have a | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
full and extensive debate will stop -- Emily Thornberry. That was | :52:03. | :52:08. | |
reaffirmed, by the way, at last year 's party conference, after the | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
election of Jeremy Corbyn. That Reay reaffirmed that we support the | :52:14. | :52:18. | |
maintenance of the continuous at sea deterrence. -- that reaffirmed. Why | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
is your Shadow Defence Secretary having a proper debate? -- full and | :52:24. | :52:31. | |
extensive debate. We had a full debate, perhaps she did not like the | :52:32. | :52:37. | |
outcome. The outcome... Firstly, it is the perfectly logical outcome in | :52:38. | :52:40. | |
defence terms, and also it is the outcome supported by the British | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
people, again, as you talk about opinion, as every opinion poll | :52:46. | :52:49. | |
shows, really. You said you would resign the Labour whip, if the party | :52:50. | :52:56. | |
came out against... I did not. What is your position? My position is as | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
it has been at times in your clips beginning earlier, you pointed out | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
there were times that Labour was a unilateralist party, and indeed that | :53:06. | :53:11. | |
did not do us much good with the electorate, with the era where the | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
public decisively rejected us. I fought my corner then, and indeed, | :53:16. | :53:21. | |
we turned around party policy, and not coincidentally, the public then | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
decided that if we were trusted with the security of the country, then | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
they would trust us. If they don't think that, then they want. Why | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
should I want to walk away from a party, that I had been a member of | :53:35. | :53:40. | |
for the best part of 50 years? Because you don't agree with | :53:41. | :53:47. | |
them...? Policies change, at one stage, one side is on top, another | :53:48. | :53:51. | |
stage, another side is on top. Now the other side is on top and you are | :53:52. | :54:04. | |
kvetching. I fought my corner in the party, and opinion in the party | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
turned around, and we won. The electorate followed that. I'm not | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
one of these people, on the fringe, Socialist workers party, now I am to | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
the right of politics... As you know, I have had the same position | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
all the way through. Yes, and here you are, belonging to a party which | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
became Blairite, and Blairism has gone now, the Blairite party in this | :54:27. | :54:31. | |
country now is the Tory party, and you and the rest of the people in | :54:32. | :54:34. | |
the Labour Party have been left behind by that. Now you are in a | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
party led by somebody like Jeremy Corbyn, you are still Blairite, you | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
have a choice, sit there and moan, or go and join the Tories. That is | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
where you plainly belong! Aditya Lily... Particularly... You sound | :54:48. | :54:56. | |
like a member of Momentum. You are using that as if it is an insult. | :54:57. | :55:03. | |
Socialist workers, and the Alliance for work as liberty and all of that. | :55:04. | :55:12. | |
We have been on that route, interestingly enough, the bite back | :55:13. | :55:18. | |
publication has just republished Jon Golding's book, which outlines those | :55:19. | :55:23. | |
battles. Winning those battles... The point, at some point, you have | :55:24. | :55:29. | |
got to stop talking about the membership of the party with this | :55:30. | :55:31. | |
scorn and disdain, whatever you think of them, whatever you, the | :55:32. | :55:35. | |
Parliamentary party think of them, they are your party, you cannot come | :55:36. | :55:42. | |
on television and talk about them as if they are lunatics! You are not | :55:43. | :55:47. | |
understanding what the party is. I do very much so, I remember the | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
Labour Party -- are you a member of the Labour Party? Yes, for three | :55:53. | :55:57. | |
months. I was a member when I was 15, and I left because of people | :55:58. | :56:04. | |
like you. -- was a member when I was 15 and I left because of people like | :56:05. | :56:09. | |
you. I have been a member for decades and decades. You could not | :56:10. | :56:14. | |
even join the party when Ed Miliband was the leader. In the Cold War, | :56:15. | :56:21. | |
which is now so long ago... Starting again... We were on the same side, | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
why do you continue to support their weapon designed for the Cold War and | :56:27. | :56:29. | |
design for a superpower when the Cold War is over and we are not a | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
superpower, there is a busy should between Trident and no Trident, a | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
modest nuclear deterrent, much smaller, it is the one that you | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
constantly seek to obscure the assistance of. In coalition, the Lib | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
Dems tried to come up with alternatives, they had the Trident | :56:46. | :56:49. | |
alternative review, and the most cost effective way, continuous at | :56:50. | :56:54. | |
sea deterrence for Trident. John Spellar, thank you very much | :56:55. | :56:55. | |
rejoining us. -- thank you very much for joining | :56:56. | :57:01. | |
us. Well, you haven't got | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
to wait until 23rd June. Here's Ellie with a round up | :57:07. | :57:09. | |
of the rest of the week's political Three strikes and you are a junior | :57:10. | :57:17. | |
doctor, there will be more industrial action and they announced | :57:18. | :57:22. | |
they are seeking a judicial view of government plans to impose new | :57:23. | :57:25. | |
contract on them. The 11th hour agreement was found in the fiscal | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
framework of the Scotland Bill, the next Scottish Government will have | :57:30. | :57:32. | |
full control of income tax. The number of people sleeping rough in | :57:33. | :57:37. | |
England has increased 30% in a year, rising to over 3500 people. The | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
Prime Minister address Jeremy Corbyn's appearance at PMQs, | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
advising him to: put on a proper suit, do up your tie, sing the | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
national anthem. He later told reporters that David Cameron was | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
jealous of his jacket(!) from one side Tory icon to Donald Trump, in | :57:55. | :58:00. | |
the race of the Republican presidential nomination. Winning a | :58:01. | :58:04. | |
third in a row. It is a lot of fun up here, I have got to tell you. | :58:05. | :58:08. | |
George Bush senior possibly was, but he was not giving anything away. | :58:09. | :58:12. | |
There are, I did not say EU referendum once. Wait a minute...! | :58:13. | :58:18. | |
Important debate in Texas last night, I stayed up to watch it. The | :58:19. | :58:25. | |
answer to the quiz, now, the question was, which of these | :58:26. | :58:27. | |
political parties has none of our guests been a member of? The answer | :58:28. | :58:35. | |
is... Women's equality party. I have not been a member of the women's | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
equality party. There was only 3000 of us, though socialists, we did not | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
call ourselves a party, as crazy as we were! No more time to walk down | :58:46. | :58:49. | |
memory lane. 1pm news beginning on BBC One, I will be back on BBC One, | :58:50. | :58:54. | |
on Sunday, with Sunday politics, Michael Howard will be joining us, | :58:55. | :58:58. | |
he is now campaigning to leave Europe. Former Conservative Party | :58:59. | :58:59. | |
head. I hope MUSIC: Close To You | :59:00. | :59:02. | |
by the Carpenters | :59:03. | :59:05. |