Browse content similar to 01/03/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:32. | :00:34. | |
A new law setting out the powers of the police and security services | :00:35. | :00:37. | |
But is it a Snooper's Charter or a vital safeguard | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
The man appointed as the Government's terror watchdog | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
questions whether its strategy to prevent radicalisation is working | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
and calls for the Prevent programme to be reviewed - | :00:51. | :00:52. | |
French riot police continue to clear the camp at Calais known | :00:53. | :01:01. | |
as the Jungle as the migrant crisis sparks violence | :01:02. | :01:03. | |
Are we better off in or out of a European Union in crisis? | :01:04. | :01:11. | |
in what's often called a Labour city, we'll look at why the Tories | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
have won it twice and Labour only once. | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
Why doesn't he split the job of Mayor of London? | :01:20. | :01:22. | |
The former Health Secretary can run as his day mayor and the honourable | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
member for Brent East can run as his nightmare! | :01:27. | :01:28. | |
All that in the next hour and joining me for the duration - | :01:29. | :01:39. | |
Tony Blair's night mayor, as William Hague put it there - | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
the former Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone. | :01:44. | :01:45. | |
First this afternoon, the Conservative cabinet might be | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
split on the issue, but there is unanimity | :01:51. | :01:52. | |
in the Shadow Cabinet - Britain should remain | :01:53. | :01:54. | |
But how full-throated is the Labour leader's support for our membership? | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
At the weekend, he attended a CND rally. | :02:01. | :02:03. | |
Critics would have liked him to spend the whole day campaigning | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
on Europe, and last night on ITV's The Agenda | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
he said he was "not on the same side" as the Prime Minister. | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
Can you imagine sharing a stage with David Cameron? | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
You're on the same side of the argument for once. | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
We're not on the same side of the argument. | :02:23. | :02:24. | |
He wants a free-market Europe and has negotiated what he believes | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
to be some kind of deal over welfare and also the "ever-closer union", | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
which apparently is legally questionable, | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
according to Michael Gove. Interesting debate, that. | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
I want to see a Europe that is actually about protecting | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
our environment, about ensuring sustainable industries across Europe | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
- such as the steel industry - and also high levels of jobs | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
and social protection across Europe. His agenda is the very opposite. | :02:53. | :03:02. | |
That was not very helpful, that intervention, because it is a binary | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
choice. You either want to remain or leave. He is on the same side as the | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
Prime Minister? I have said for years that if someone had showed me | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
our economy would do better if we leave, I would vote to leave. No one | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
has come up with that. The double fact is, the insecurity of two years | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
of renegotiating all the treaties, we don't want to do a separate | :03:24. | :03:30. | |
trade. The real problem is that European bureaucracy has become a | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
nightmare. That is appointed Jeremy has been making for years. It is not | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
open accountable and democratic. We want real reform, not the piffle we | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
have had from Cameron. In a way, he is on the same side. If you look at | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
it in terms of the polemic, you either want to stay in or you want | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
to leave, but he couldn't bring himself to say that. We are in | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
favour staying in, but we also want real change. In a sense, what | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
Cameron has come back with is even less effective than what Harold | :04:01. | :04:10. | |
Wilson got 40 years ago. This great block should be done away with and | :04:11. | :04:13. | |
the elected members of Europe should run it. There should effectively be | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
a senate, with each of the 28 member states that having a veto. What | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
about Jeremy Corbyn's standing in the Parliamentary either party? He | :04:23. | :04:24. | |
did finally attend the first meeting this year of MPs, and reports | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
suggest that it didn't go well. Have you spoken to anyone about it? I | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
have heard comments from other Labour MPs. There are a lot of | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
Labour MPs who cannot come to terms with the fact that the British | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
public, at two elections, and the Labour Party membership last summer, | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
have turned their back on the old lair nonsense. Loads of people | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
stopped me on the street in the last election saying, what did the last | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
Labour government informally? It did a lot for the bankers and the elite | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
at the top, but we continue to seek millions of jobs lost in | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
manufacturing. We didn't build homes that people could afford. | :05:04. | :05:06. | |
Effectively, the election of Jeremy was a new start. Then why can't he | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
bring those Labour MPs on board? If it is the case that he is better | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
representing Labour Party members and some Labour voters, why do we | :05:18. | :05:24. | |
have reports of last night's meeting being amateurish, shambolic, | :05:25. | :05:31. | |
painful, patronising? Presumably, Labour MPs still want to win the | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
next election. So I can't imagine that they are this unhappy unless | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
they genuinely feel it with Jeremy Corbyn's leadership. With the four | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
elections under Blair and Brown, local Labour parties were not | :05:47. | :05:48. | |
allowed to choose the candidate they wanted, they had to choose from an | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
approved list, and that list exclude any new people coming in who were | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
too left wing or radical, so the Labour Party is completely out of | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
kilter with the membership. They have to come to terms with Jeremy, | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
not the other way round. Do you think it is difficult and | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
frustrating for Labour MPs when they are asked, as they reportedly were | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
last night at the metering of Labour MPs, on how they should stick to the | :06:12. | :06:19. | |
party message coming from -- you are an MP who spent his career | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
rebelling. Then to ask others to be on message will stick in their | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
throats. Jeremy and myself report, and we were right. But you did not | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
stick to the message. Why should Labour MPs be on message now? | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
Because the message Jeremy has got is about rebuilding our economy by | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
investing in infrastructure, increasing research. We have been | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
going low-wage, low skill, low-tech. That is not the future for an | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
advanced capitalist society. You have to be high wage, high skill, | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
high tech. Germany exports five times more than we did China. We | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
have the biggest trade deficit ever. You can't leave it all to the | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
bankers. But has he got the right priorities? If Europe is this | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
critical issue, which many feel it is, why was he at a CND rally not | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
campaigning with Labour on its Europe Day? Jeremy will be | :07:18. | :07:24. | |
campaigning. We have set up our own committee, because we do not want to | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
run behind David Cameron. Alan Johnson is leading that. Jeremy and | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
I will be part of that. So will John McDonnell. We want to stay in Europe | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
because we do not want to see jobs lost and investment reduced. On the | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
jobs, you will have heard the Scottish Secretary saying from the | :07:42. | :07:48. | |
GMB that posers don't know anything about working-class people with jobs | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
in manufacturing and that is why they are campaigning to not renew | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
Trident. John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn have a working class | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
background. They had to struggle to get where they are today. They are | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
not part of the elite that went to private school and then straight | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
into Oxbridge. But he said they are out of touch with what people want | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
in those working-class communities. I assume you are talking about | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
Trident. Once you have built the four Trident submarines, what is the | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
next job for those workers? Better to build the ships we need to have a | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
credible Navy. You are not convincing the unions. When it comes | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
to Jeremy Corbyn's popularity, you have said he better represents | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
Labour Party members and some Labour Party voters. If you look at the | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
polls, Labour is still way behind. He could become the first opposition | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
leader since Michael Foot to fail to make gains in the English council | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
elections. He is not in a strong position. His personal poll ratings | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
are worse than Michael Foot. He has had six months of lies and | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
distortions by the media. What lies? Oh, that he is a threat to national | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
security, a terrorist sympathiser. Literally, that skeletal abuse was | :09:01. | :09:07. | |
what I went through at the GLC. But you did win an election and it | :09:08. | :09:09. | |
doesn't look as though Jeremy Corbyn will. Jeremy, like me, is not going | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
to change policies because of the Tory media. Gradually, we will win | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
public support. If Labour loses in May in those elections, or loses | :09:22. | :09:29. | |
council seats, do you think he will be unseated? It is the first test of | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
his leadership. No, the first test of his leadership was the old | :09:35. | :09:36. | |
by-election, where we won the biggest share of the vote in 100 | :09:37. | :09:43. | |
years. That was a Labour hinterland. No, people were saying it might be | :09:44. | :09:52. | |
won by Ukip. So you are expecting there to be big gains? We had our | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
best election for 14 years. It will be a struggle. But at the end of the | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
day, we will win an election if we have the right economic policy. We | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
lost last time because we didn't. We have to come up with how you pay for | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
this stuff by cracking have to come up with how you pay for | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
Google and Starbucks and those firms that don't pay their fair share of | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
tax. So you still stick to the line that it was because Labour was not | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
left wing enough, that was why it in 2015? Your economic policies were | :10:23. | :10:33. | |
the reason Labour failed? Back in the 50s and 60s, I can recall that | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
Tory governments did investment as well. Since Thatcher and Blair, we | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
have neglected investment and if the public sector doesn't provide a | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
good, modern transport system, we have pathetic broadband. It is | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
appalling compared with what you have in the Far East. If you put | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
that infrastructure in, firms will invest. We will talk more about the | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
London mayoralty later. which of the following Labour | :10:57. | :10:59. | |
politicians has not grown a beard? Liam Byrne, John McDonnell, | :11:00. | :11:06. | |
Lord Falconer, or Toby Perkins? At the end of the show, | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
Ken Livingstone will give us In the next hour, the Home | :11:13. | :11:14. | |
Secretary, Theresa May, will publish revised plans setting | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
out powers for the police and security agencies in the UK | :11:21. | :11:23. | |
to monitor people's communications The Government says | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
the Investigatory Powers Bill, dubbed the "snoopers' | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
charter" by critics, will include strengthened | :11:32. | :11:34. | |
measures to safeguard privacy - The Investigatory Powers Bill | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
is intended to address gaps and overhaul the laws | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
governing how the state, police and spies can | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
access communications. The Bill requires internet and phone | :11:50. | :11:51. | |
companies to keep a record of websites visited by every | :11:52. | :11:54. | |
citizen for 12 months. It also lays out powers | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
for the security services to perform bulk collection of personal | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
communications and data in order A draft version of the Bill | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
published in November was criticised by three parliamentary | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
committees as "flawed". They were concerned | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
that the proposals lacked clarity Today's Bill will address | :12:18. | :12:19. | |
some of these issues. The Government says it will include | :12:20. | :12:25. | |
stronger controls to "protect | :12:26. | :12:28. | |
freedom of speech and privacy". Ministers want the measures | :12:29. | :12:31. | |
on the statute book by the end | :12:32. | :12:33. | |
of the year - a timetable who say the plans are | :12:34. | :12:35. | |
being rushed through. And we're joined now by backbench | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
Conservative MP David Davis, a long time critic of the extent | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
of the surveillance powers. The government says it has listened | :12:46. | :12:58. | |
to concerns and made the necessary changes and has done what you and | :12:59. | :13:01. | |
others have demanded. Why aren't you satisfied? Well, at the moment, we | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
haven't seen the bill. Perhaps it is appropriately secret at the moment. | :13:08. | :13:14. | |
It is a huge bill, for a start. It has taken about | :13:15. | :13:17. | |
It is a huge bill, for a start. It mechanisms that were previously | :13:18. | :13:20. | |
used, and it will have a whole series of criticisms to meet. I | :13:21. | :13:23. | |
could sit here for hours talking about it, but let's pick one, the | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
intercept approvals by the Home Secretary. She does about 2700 a | :13:29. | :13:35. | |
year on about ten a day. How on earth is that the way for a | :13:36. | :13:42. | |
democracy to control intrusion, bugging someone like Ken | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
Livingstone? But judicial authorisation of warrants, you said | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
that would be nine tenths of the way there when we spoke to you about | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
this. There is going to be judicial authorisation. There will be this | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
ball knock procedure, as they call it, intended to ensure that | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
intercept warrants will have to be signed by a judge -- a double knock | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
procedure. There is a great debate after the very is committed | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
commented about whether or not the check carried out by the judges is | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
anything more than a sort of, is this a ridiculous action. I want the | :14:18. | :14:27. | |
judge to take the time, a security cleared judge who has done this | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
hundreds of time to repair times, and do it properly, not just | :14:34. | :14:36. | |
rubber-stamp the Home Secretary's decision, which is what is | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
happening. Home Secretary first, judge second. Why are you so sure | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
there would not overrule the Home Secretary? Are judges really going | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
to put their credibility on the line and literally took another box? | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
Judges do that all the time, when they either convict or in some great | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
people who go through their courts. -- exoneration. There was a judge | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
who released on bail one person accused of terror is. You could say | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
that was taking a risk, but the guy was exonerated. They take those | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
decisions all the time. That is what judges do. But what sort of | :15:13. | :15:21. | |
guarantees do you want? If they have given you judicial authorisation, | :15:22. | :15:24. | |
you say it is not thorough enough. What evidence do you want? | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
At the moment the judges are just checking for a ridiculous decision. | :15:31. | :15:38. | |
Look at the facts... If they did that it would be different. I would | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
rather have it the other way round, judge first and not the Home | :15:43. | :15:45. | |
Secretary. It would be an improvement. Would it satisfy you do | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
have a judge not just rubber-stamping but checking? I | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
trust the judgment of a judge over the Home Secretary but if we look | :15:55. | :16:00. | |
back over the years, I'm not complaining about bumping me but | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
Harriet Harman, what she threaten action on security? I want more | :16:04. | :16:09. | |
scrutiny of the security services. All she spent her life doing was | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
sailing, we need more women in various places. That is not a threat | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
to national security. The government and those supporting the bill will | :16:21. | :16:23. | |
say in the meantime while this discussion is happening they need to | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
plug the gap in surveillance because lives are at risk. One of the things | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
the Home Secretary herself has said is that this recognises existing | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
powers. Nothing is being held up, this is going on while we sit here. | :16:38. | :16:44. | |
It proves Edward Snowden was telling the truth. We are seeing it now. The | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
government has a mandate to do this, it is in the manifesto and there was | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
support in the Parliamentary party. In the public's eyes, I don't have | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
the statistics but I would suggest that if they are presented with an | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
either or, they will go for more surveillance. This is a 250 plus | :17:05. | :17:11. | |
page bill that will be pushed through the house quickly. There | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
won't be time for even MPs do understand it all, let alone members | :17:17. | :17:19. | |
of the public. If you went out in the street and asked a hundred | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
people, would they even know what it was? What about data collection and | :17:24. | :17:31. | |
the holding of data. It is not going to play ball anyway, so it won't | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
quite be the free for all that you and others are saying. They will | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
have all of this unnecessarily collected data and people will be | :17:40. | :17:42. | |
unhappy about this, why should they be holding vital bits of information | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
as they would see it but actually everyday bits of information to you | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
and me? It is not just about holding data about how they access it. At | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
the moment you get approval from other officials in the same | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
organisation. This is about controlling people's privacy. And | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
controlling access to data, that is a bigger issue than the amount of | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
data being held. The companies themselves will prove difficult, | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
there is a battle going on at the moment between Apple and the FBI and | :18:12. | :18:18. | |
Apple are doing it because of what their customers want. The public are | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
voting with their wallets. With these extra powers have helped to | :18:23. | :18:28. | |
prevent 7/7? Not really, because you can get most people... If something | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
is thrown up there will always be a small number that get through. The | :18:35. | :18:40. | |
Metropolitan Police were doing good surveillance but these four came | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
from outside London and we did not have that data. Increasingly | :18:45. | :18:47. | |
terrorism will be the act of an individual, not someone who is part | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
of a network. If it is a conspiracy, that you can access. A security | :18:53. | :18:59. | |
measure stopping people on our streets or a paedophile, it is about | :19:00. | :19:07. | |
whether it actually works. That is the problem. The number of security | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
specialists think it is detrimental because there is too much | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
information. A targeted approach is better. Most of the examples Theresa | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
May gave when she turned up in front of the joint committee were | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
targeted, not widespread. How critical and issue is this? It's | :19:25. | :19:31. | |
very important. There is another for a new consensus, this is not a left | :19:32. | :19:38. | |
right issue, there are issues about what will actually work and catch | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
terrorists and it can be done. Should Eurosceptic ministers be | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
allowed access to government briefings? Of course they should. | :19:46. | :19:54. | |
The government has a position... The government wishes to remain at the | :19:55. | :20:01. | |
top civil servant... People cannot use the civil service to try to win | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
a general election. Much of the argument is about immigration and | :20:06. | :20:08. | |
welfare and so on and his department is not allowed to tell him about | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
what his job is. It is ridiculous. Do you agree with William Hague that | :20:15. | :20:20. | |
these are irrelevant to voters? It is a very Blairite view, the process | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
does not matter. People will smell something, is it a fair process? If | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
they come to that conclusion they lost believing the government | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
altogether. If the government thinks that is true, why not let people see | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
it? My worry is that they are keeping this away from Iain Duncan | :20:41. | :20:43. | |
Smith because he may be able to demonstrate it is a load of old | :20:44. | :20:50. | |
Tosh. We are staying with the issue of security. | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
The Government's independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, | :20:56. | :20:56. | |
David Anderson, has told the Daily Politics that there needs | :20:57. | :20:59. | |
of the controversial Prevent programme. | :21:00. | :21:01. | |
Prevent is designed to guard against home grown terrorism, | :21:02. | :21:03. | |
but has been blamed for alienating the communities it is supposed | :21:04. | :21:06. | |
Here's David Anderson's assessment of whether the Government is getting | :21:07. | :21:09. | |
the right balance between civil liberties and security. | :21:10. | :21:15. | |
Stopping the kind of terrorist attacks we saw in London in 2005. | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
Good afternoon to you from Westminster. | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
Central London has been rocked by a series of terrorist attacks... | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
Over a decade on, 7/7 remains the worst terrorist attack ever | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
to take place on mainland Britain, with just two people murdered since. | :21:31. | :21:38. | |
That may suggest that our politicians brought in the necessary | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
laws and powers of surveillance to make Britain a safer place, | :21:44. | :21:45. | |
but we experience credible terrorist attack plots every year. | :21:46. | :21:48. | |
But recently, they have become more frequent and more diverse. | :21:49. | :21:51. | |
The unusual thing about my job is that I'm completely independent | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
of Government, and yet I have unrestricted access to secret | :21:56. | :21:57. | |
It may no longer be enough for ministers to say, | :21:58. | :22:05. | |
"If you'd seen what I've seen...", because I've seen it too. | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
If powers are needlessly strict, they can be counter-productive | :22:10. | :22:12. | |
But if they're relaxed too far, they may expose us | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
My predecessor, Alex Carlile, had to respond to a Government | :22:18. | :22:20. | |
which wanted to bring in measures like 90 days' | :22:21. | :22:22. | |
This is an occasion in which it is important that we do | :22:23. | :22:31. | |
what is responsible, what is right and what is necessary | :22:32. | :22:33. | |
There was consistency throughout the time from 2001 until 2010, | :22:34. | :22:42. | |
when there was a Labour government and there was no real change at any | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
time in counterterrorism policy, apart from that that | :22:46. | :22:48. | |
My term of office started with the formation of a coalition | :22:49. | :22:55. | |
government, whose own counterterrorism review was billed | :22:56. | :22:56. | |
as a correction in favour of liberty. | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
This bill is necessary precisely because public safety is enhanced, | :23:03. | :23:04. | |
not diminished, by having appropriate and proportionate | :23:05. | :23:06. | |
Last year, I produced my biggest report to date | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
The law, it seemed to me, was outdated, obscure | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
things that Parliament simply didn't know about, | :23:19. | :23:19. | |
The draft bill that resulted was huge, and it's already been | :23:20. | :23:28. | |
knocked about a bit by Parliamentary committees. | :23:29. | :23:29. | |
It has to be Parliament that decides what powers the agencies should have | :23:30. | :23:38. | |
and what safeguards there should be on those powers. | :23:39. | :23:40. | |
If you let go of that, you can kiss goodbye | :23:41. | :23:42. | |
I also have to look at Schedule 7 to the Terrorism Act. | :23:43. | :23:56. | |
That gives police at the ports, airports and international rail | :23:57. | :23:59. | |
terminals the power to stop people, search them, detain them for to six | :24:00. | :24:02. | |
hours and even download their phones. | :24:03. | :24:03. | |
All those things, they can do without the need for suspicion. | :24:04. | :24:06. | |
Schedule 7 is extremely useful to the police. | :24:07. | :24:08. | |
But it's also a significant source of resentment in some quarters. | :24:09. | :24:11. | |
So here at St Pancras, and indeed everywhere else, | :24:12. | :24:13. | |
it's important that the power is applied in a targeted way | :24:14. | :24:16. | |
Muslim communities always want to talk to me about Prevent, | :24:17. | :24:30. | |
to the ideological challenge of terrorism. | :24:31. | :24:37. | |
Most things about Prevent are classified. | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
Some people say the laws are heavy-handed, or they are used, | :24:43. | :24:45. | |
for example by teachers, in a way that unfairly targets | :24:46. | :24:53. | |
interest it is to divide communities rather than unite them. | :24:54. | :25:02. | |
some person or body of people ought to have the power to do for Prevent | :25:03. | :25:05. | |
what I do for the counterterrorism laws. | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
While in Bolton, I also spoke to Yasmin Qureshi about the Prevent | :25:10. | :25:11. | |
It's making communities distrustful of the police and the authorities, | :25:12. | :25:20. | |
If people have views which are at variance with the norm, | :25:21. | :25:28. | |
we need to be able to challenge it, not hide it. | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
The threat has developed significantly because of Isil. | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
We didn't know, for example, when I was involved in developing | :25:36. | :25:44. | |
and to spread terrorism onto a wider stage. | :25:45. | :25:55. | |
Well, if it was, I wouldn't have taken the job. | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
Some of my recommendations are accepted straight | :26:01. | :26:01. | |
Others find their way into judgments of the higher courts. | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
But above all, I try to serve Parliament and its committees | :26:07. | :26:09. | |
by reporting on things that they're not allowed to see. | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
If I can inform the public and political debate on these | :26:15. | :26:17. | |
sensitive issues, then I'm doing my job. | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
And we're joined now by David Anderson, | :26:22. | :26:24. | |
and by Conservative MP Victoria Atkins, a member | :26:25. | :26:27. | |
of the Home Affairs Select Committee. | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
Welcome to both of you. David Anderson, how did you get to be the | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
end independent reviewer? I was tapped on the shoulder by three | :26:38. | :26:43. | |
secret men in raincoats. They pretended they wanted legal advice | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
and in fact they had come to offer me a job. Next time I'm told it will | :26:47. | :26:52. | |
be a public procedure. With application forms and it will be | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
transparent. Is that the right way to go? That is the way we have to | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
go. It sounds like something out of a Cold War spy movie. In terms of | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
the balance between liberty and People's rights and security, do you | :27:08. | :27:14. | |
think the balance is about right? Has it tipped one way because of the | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
threat from Isil? One gauge is talking to communities who are most | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
affected by these laws and seeing what is on their minds. Five years | :27:23. | :27:28. | |
ago I heard a lot about no suspicion stop and search which happened under | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
the terrorism act and schedule seven, the power that the police | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
have, but nowadays I don't hear so much about them. Stop and search | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
power has been removed altogether and schedule seven is not used | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
anywhere near as much and it is used in a more effective and targeted | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
way. I hear about the Prevent agenda. It is supposed to be about | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
making friends and living harmoniously but at the moment it is | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
causing most upset. Why do you think it hasn't worked in terms of | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
creating harmonious community relations? The problem is that it's | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
not transparent and nobody really knows what's going on under Prevent. | :28:09. | :28:16. | |
There are myths about training would the biased about Muslims for | :28:17. | :28:22. | |
example. People say that horrible teachers have overreacted and | :28:23. | :28:24. | |
referred innocent four-year-olds to the police. Some of those stories | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
may be true and others may have been exaggerated but in a sense it is | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
secondary. People are worried and quite frightened and it seems that | :28:34. | :28:36. | |
what you need is somebody independent to come along as I was | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
saying in the film to really look at it and sort out what's going on and | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
how it could be done better. Should it be part of your job? I don't | :28:45. | :28:51. | |
think so, is fine for looking at ministerial discretions and so on | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
but you need a much broader range of expertise, somebody who knows about | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
prisons and schools and people from affecting communities because you | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
have to have trust. When politicians talk about six credible terror | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
threats last year, what do they mean? How serious are they? The | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
first thing is to remind them that in the same year there were 22 is | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
accessible terrorist attacks in Northern Ireland. That puts it into | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
context. MI5 will say they have stopped 34 times that many in | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
London. Sadly it is still the case. They are right when they talk about | :29:28. | :29:30. | |
six or seven attempts that were foiled. Nowadays you are looking at | :29:31. | :29:37. | |
quite a range, most of them would be closer to the DIY terrorism which we | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
see now, not just from Islamists but extreme right groups as well. There | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
is now a range from what we saw in other countries, like the marauding | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
attacks in France and targeted attacks on Jews. And on free speech, | :29:51. | :29:58. | |
Charlie Hebdo, and so on. Twice in three months we have seen bombs on | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
airliners, the Somali airliner and the Russian plane that took off from | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
Sharm el-Sheikh. How do we approach terrorism? Is it very different in | :30:09. | :30:14. | |
France compared to here? Is that why we haven't had, thank goodness, a | :30:15. | :30:16. | |
similar style attack in London? We have to be careful about being | :30:17. | :30:25. | |
smug about this, because there were no terrorist attacks in France | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
between 1996 and 2012, and everyone was saying, why don't we do it like | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
the French? But since last November, the French are in a very unhappy | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
place. They have a state of emergency. They are conducting | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
warrantless searches. Large numbers of people are under curfew and house | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
arrest. And so far, we have managed to stick to our ancient principles | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
of policing by consent, which I don't think are alive and well in | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
the same way in Paris. Talking about leadership in other European | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
countries, you recently described the UK as having enjoyed a position | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
of leadership as far as terrorism policy is concerned. Could that be | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
replicated outside the EU? No. It is one of those areas in Europe where | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
we have taken the lead, perhaps because we have been more interested | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
and preoccupied by the subject for longer than most other countries. So | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
if it is a question of aviation security or how you analyse the | :31:21. | :31:23. | |
threat or trying to ensure that people retain the data they need to | :31:24. | :31:30. | |
detect terrace or serious crime, the UK has been making the running in | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
Europe and others who have come behind. But we could still have | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
tools like the European arrest warrant and sharing of databases | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
even if the UK left the EU. That is likely, although let's not forget | :31:44. | :31:45. | |
that the director of Europol said that that would be more costly and | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
certainly less effective. The broader point is that we would need | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
to take what we were given. That might be good and useful, but you | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
could say it is not as good or as useful as designing the policies | :31:58. | :32:03. | |
that the whole continent adopts. Let's pick up some of the comments | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
on Prevent. Do you agree with David Anderson that there should be an | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
independence grew junior of Prevent? It is something the home affairs | :32:14. | :32:16. | |
select committee is looking at at the moment. We must be careful not | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
to throw the baby out with the bath water. I think it is a great thing | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
that we have a programme to reach out to young people to help parents, | :32:25. | :32:31. | |
when they are worried about their children. One of the common | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
misconceptions about Channel is that it comes in for criticism because of | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
various stories that have emerged. But actually, Channel is a voluntary | :32:43. | :32:45. | |
service and a young person can only be referred to it with the parent's | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
consent. But the issue raised by David Anderson is one of | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
transparency. If we don't know what Prevent is doing or how successful | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
it has been or what his agenda is, how can it be judged? Well, there | :32:58. | :33:04. | |
are many voices that are very noisy at the moment about Prevent. Think | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
sometimes, we have heard from some of those voices in the home affairs | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
select committee in our work looking at this, and some of those voices | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
crowd out the work going on on the ground. For example, more than 285 | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
mosques are working with the Prevent scheme, 800 schools and colleges, | :33:23. | :33:32. | |
100 faith groups. I understand that we perhaps need to sell it better, | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
not just two communities directly affected by Prevent, but the whole | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
of the country. But we mustn't stop talking to these children and young | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
people, because what is the alternative? One of the complaints | :33:46. | :33:48. | |
from a member of the Muslim community that came onto the | :33:49. | :33:51. | |
programme said that they felt they were outside the Prevent strategy | :33:52. | :33:54. | |
and were not part of the discussions about how to deal with the | :33:55. | :34:02. | |
communities. Well, this is a long term project. Where criticisms are | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
being voiced, we should take those on board. But Prevent is about | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
safeguarding our young people, and we must bear that in mind. Is it fit | :34:12. | :34:18. | |
for purpose, Prevent? I don't think so. After the 7/7 bombings, the | :34:19. | :34:25. | |
police did not stop a single attack on a Muslim. In the last few years, | :34:26. | :34:29. | |
there has been a huge increase in Islamophobic incidents. And it is | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
not just Muslim terrorists. We have a lot of far right individuals, | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
bringing in arms by post from abroad. But all you hearing the | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
media is Muslim, Muslim, Muslim, and it is alienating people. Prevent is | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
also about preventing youngsters from going on a very dark path. In | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
that sense, it has failed, because we hear reports all the time. But we | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
only hear when has not worked, we don't hear about the success | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
stories. Are you saying there would have been more people going to Syria | :35:04. | :35:06. | |
to fight for Isil if not for Prevent? We have heard from | :35:07. | :35:10. | |
witnesses who consider it to be a very useful tool in helping direct | :35:11. | :35:16. | |
young people away from negative influences, sometimes on the | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
computer in their bedroom or their iPad. We have to tackle this. We | :35:21. | :35:26. | |
can't just criticise it. Victoria is right, there is an Prevent shaped | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
space. Ibrahim Anderson, my namesake was committed a few weeks ago for | :35:32. | :35:34. | |
soliciting members for Isis, it came out during his trial that he had | :35:35. | :35:37. | |
been photographing his six-year-old and eight-year-old sons in front of | :35:38. | :35:40. | |
the black flag, holding swords and pointing at heaven. One would hope | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
that any responsible schoolteacher might at least have half an eye open | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
for that sort of thing. The problem with Prevent is that it has become a | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
sort of lightning conductor for a lot of dissatisfaction. And one of | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
the reasons for that, I'm afraid, is that a lot of Muslims in this | :35:57. | :35:59. | |
country do not feel engaged with. They feel the government is talking | :36:00. | :36:05. | |
to a limited range of people, and if they are going to solve things | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
together against the men of violence at the outer edges, you have to talk | :36:12. | :36:19. | |
to people. Let's talk briefly about the Investigatory Powers Bill. Does | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
that have your support now? It has been revised, according to the | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
government. We just heard from David Davis that he feels it's not going | :36:28. | :36:30. | |
far enough in terms of judicial oversight. There is one good thing | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
about the Investigatory Powers Bill, which makes it the much unique in | :36:35. | :36:40. | |
the world, and that is that all the powers that the agencies and the | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
police have and aspire to our set out clearly, in a way that can be | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
debated democratically in Parliament. That is incredibly | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
unusual in the world, and it was brave even to attempt it. It was my | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
recommendation that we should, and I think it has been done triumphantly. | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
There are a lot of details to argue about. The bill is not the finished | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
article, but that is what Parliament is full. Parliament needs to decide | :37:05. | :37:07. | |
whether we are prepared for people to keep a record of our internet | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
browsing history, and if not, Parliament will also decide | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
browsing history, and if not, will not become part of the | :37:15. | :37:17. | |
Now - riot police are supporting demolition teams as they continue | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
to dismantle shelters in the Calais migrant camp known as the Jungle. | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
This follows scenes of violence overnight, | :37:25. | :37:26. | |
with police firing tear gas as migrants hurled stones. | :37:27. | :37:28. | |
the migrants must move to shipping containers on another part | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
They don't want to be registered as asylum seekers in France, | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
and are instead desperate to travel to Britain. | :37:38. | :37:46. | |
Our correspondent is in Calais. What is going on behind you? As far as | :37:47. | :37:54. | |
many of the migrants are concerned, this place represents their best | :37:55. | :37:57. | |
chances of making it across the Channel to the UK. Today, things are | :37:58. | :38:05. | |
moving fast. Yesterday, all of this was tense and wooden homes. Last | :38:06. | :38:11. | |
night, we were here as the police through these tear gas canisters | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
into the camp to try to clear the protesters, people trying to repel | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
the demolition workers. Now they are progressing through | :38:20. | :38:25. | |
the demolition workers. Now they are speed. The authorities said | :38:26. | :38:27. | |
bulldozers would not be used and that they would use a softly-softly | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
approach. That is not what we have been witnessing in the Jungle. So | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
the riot police came in first this morning to clear the way. You can | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
see that there are still some migrants on site, but most have | :38:40. | :38:41. | |
moved from the southern section towards the north. Many have gone | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
elsewhere already. They have gone to another camp with even worse | :38:48. | :38:55. | |
conditions in nearby Dunkerque. What has their response been? And what | :38:56. | :39:02. | |
about those still there? I was speaking to one man an hour or so | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
ago. He came from Sudan. He said that he feared for his life. He said | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
he had fled this kind of thing in his own country and he did not | :39:12. | :39:14. | |
expect to find it in Europe. He said he tried to cross the Channel 20 | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
times since he has been here. He has tried on trains and lorries, like so | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
many. That is one of the reasons they are trying to clear this | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
Jungle. They are trying to demolish it to act as a deterrent, to | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
dissuade others from following this well trodden path. They are also | :39:34. | :39:43. | |
trying to stop people from risking their lives, because they believe | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
that if they come here, they have a chance of getting to the UK. So they | :39:49. | :39:51. | |
are trying to push them elsewhere. The question on the minds of so many | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
is, where will they go now if there is no room at Dunkerque, which we | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
have been told by the migrants is run mostly by violent people | :40:00. | :40:02. | |
smugglers? Where will they go next? I'm joined now in the studio | :40:03. | :40:04. | |
by Ukip's spokeswoman on home Is it your belief that if we weren't | :40:05. | :40:16. | |
in the EU, we wouldn't be seeing these scenes in Calais? Yes, I | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
believe it is. Why? Well, the draw for these migrants is an economic | :40:22. | :40:27. | |
future in the United Kingdom. They have gone all the way across Europe. | :40:28. | :40:33. | |
They have got in either via Lesbos, the Mediterranean roots, or the | :40:34. | :40:36. | |
Balkan route. They have then either been trafficked or made their own | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
way all the way to Calais and Dunkerque, and they are there | :40:42. | :40:44. | |
because they see an economic future in the UK. What difference would it | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
make if we were not in the EU in terms of migrants trying to get over | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
to the UK? I am not following your point. If we were out of the EU, | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
migrants would still want to come to Britain. Why would it be more | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
difficult for them if we were outside the EU? What I do have hoped | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
would have happened by now is that those individuals, instead of | :41:07. | :41:09. | |
risking their lives, would apply by legal means to come to the United | :41:10. | :41:15. | |
Kingdom. And if are out of the European Union, they then clearly | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
would not be able to get as far as they could in terms of the Channel | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
ports. Do you agree with that assessment? I think that if we leave | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
Europe, it will make no difference. These people have trekked all the | :41:29. | :41:31. | |
way across Europe because they want to come to Britain, because Britain | :41:32. | :41:34. | |
is seen as the best of the European countries to bring your kids up in | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
and it is the most open and delete intolerant about Muslims. -- the | :41:39. | :41:44. | |
least intolerant about Muslims. And we are largely responsible for this. | :41:45. | :41:51. | |
The Americans wanted to overthrow Assad and Gaddafi, and they did get | :41:52. | :41:54. | |
rid of Saddam Hussein. It has been catastrophic. Frankly, it is worse | :41:55. | :42:01. | |
off now if you are a Libyan, Iraqi or Syria than it was before. Our | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
interventions have been a disaster. That is the foreign policy argument | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
as you see it for the cause of the wave of migration. Are you convinced | :42:11. | :42:13. | |
that it wouldn't change it if Britain pulls out of the EU? You | :42:14. | :42:19. | |
think these scenes will carry on? It could get worse, because there will | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
be a lot of people in European governments saying, why should we do | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
anything for Britain? Well, I obviously disagree. They have got to | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
Calais on the basis that they have managed to breach the European | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
frontiers. The Schengen system allows them to then get as far as | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
they did. Possibly the only area where we might agree, let's take | :42:42. | :42:49. | |
that out of the equation. The issue is that they get into Europe and | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
they then get as far as they do on the basis that there is no border | :42:54. | :42:56. | |
control. There is no passport control. But they would still be | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
able to do that, even if we have left. We are not disagreeing. So it | :43:01. | :43:07. | |
will not really change the situation. We are not part of | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
Schengen anyway. As you say, many of these migrants are wanting to just | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
get to Britain to live and work. They are not interested in the rest | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
of Europe. And that would not change. No, but there is this cohort | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
that are so focused on getting to the UK that they are prepared to put | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
themselves at that degree of risk. Thousands of individuals are | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
arriving either on the Macedonian border or on the Greek islands, and | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
we have no idea what proportion of those are still prepared to take the | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
next level of risk and get all the way to Calais and Dunkerque. But it | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
hasn't affected the UK. These are desperate scenes on mainland Europe, | :43:48. | :43:49. | |
but in terms of the numbers of people that have made it to Britain | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
as a result of the migrant crisis and have actually been accepted | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
either as asylum seekers and refugees, hasn't really changed | :43:58. | :44:04. | |
since this has erupted. Firstly, your questions ought to be directed | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
at the county council, that is having to look after children and | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
home some of these people -- Kent County Council. You also ought to | :44:14. | :44:17. | |
talk to Kent Police, who have to manage these individuals when they | :44:18. | :44:20. | |
jump out of the two service stations from lorries they have hidden in. | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
You also have to talk to somebody like the head of Eurostar and | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
Eurotunnel, who has seen a begin pack on their business on the basis | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
that trains are being stopped -- it has had a begin pack. But the | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
figures do not back that up. There were 25,000 asylum application from | :44:36. | :44:42. | |
a applicants in the year ending June 2000 15. Only 2000 of those were | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
from Syria. The number of applications remains low relative to | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
the number of applications in 2002. Your issue is with asylum seekers. | :44:52. | :44:55. | |
We are not talking about them, we are talking about individuals who | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
are a number of European heads of state have said are economic | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
migrants. We have had interviews and we have seen press coverage and we | :45:04. | :45:06. | |
have heard individuals talking about the reason they want to get to the | :45:07. | :45:10. | |
UK being nothing to do with asylum. They are going because they believe | :45:11. | :45:13. | |
they can get a job, a better standard of living or they are | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
entitled to benefits. But would you agree that if we were not part of | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
the EU, would have less influence on discussions to do with the migrant | :45:23. | :45:28. | |
crisis? Not at all. We have an opt out of the Schengen agreement. We | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
are signed up to the UN Convention on asylum processing and management. | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
So in terms of our role in or out of the European Union, I would rather | :45:39. | :45:43. | |
go with those two issues, rather than follow something the EU is | :45:44. | :45:53. | |
trying to manufacture. Will it be part of your campaign? Migration and | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
lack of border control, yes, of course that is an important point | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
here. It is, the lack of border control... The migrant crisis... It | :46:03. | :46:09. | |
is about the uncontrolled migration to the United Kingdom. Germany has | :46:10. | :46:15. | |
been criticised and also praised for the decision and the announcement by | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
Angela Merkel to say, Syrian refugees are welcome here. Do you | :46:20. | :46:27. | |
think as the migrant crisis unfolds and the pressure on countries like | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
Italy, Greece and Macedonia, that it was the wrong thing to say? No, | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
Greece and Macedonia cannot cope, there has to be a Europe-wide | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
response and each country has to take their fair share of genuine | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
asylum seekers. The worries that you have is that anyone in the other 27 | :46:47. | :46:53. | |
European countries is free to come here. Asylum seekers represent an | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
minute part of migration coming to Britain. Most of it is legal and | :46:58. | :47:03. | |
from the rest of Europe. In the case of Macedonia is it right that they | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
have taken a hard line? They describe 400 men trying to break | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
through before they had been registered. Is that the right way to | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
go? I think it is, Macedonia happens to be one of seven Schengen members | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
that has temporarily, I will put that in quotes, reintroduced border | :47:23. | :47:31. | |
control. The Schengen agreement was effectively a passport to allow | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
extremism and terrorism to the passport free right across Europe. | :47:36. | :47:42. | |
You have the head of an organisation such as that, an organisation with a | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
huge amount of authority, making that statement, what Macedonia has | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
done is spot on. Even using tear gas to control crowds? Fire that small | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
children? I don't know the exact details. On the basis of what you | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
have said, if they have used tear gas, maybe they | :48:02. | :48:04. | |
have said, if they have used tear option. I don't agree. You don't | :48:05. | :48:07. | |
think tear gas should be used. The complaint is that large groups have | :48:08. | :48:09. | |
been pending for so long that complaint is that large groups have | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
frustration is now overflowing and erupting, so they tried to push | :48:16. | :48:24. | |
through. What do you say to that? This awful anarchist organisation | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
called No Borders, currently creating trouble in Calais, has not | :48:30. | :48:30. | |
made it to Macedonia. Quite frankly creating trouble in Calais, has not | :48:31. | :48:36. | |
the mayhem they have caused over the past few months in Calais for | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
example, if they were to replicate that in Macedonia or Lesbos, | :48:41. | :48:46. | |
goodness knows. It's a shameful reflection on the UK. Would you open | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
the doors and would you like to see the government welcoming large | :48:51. | :48:53. | |
numbers of migrants in the way Angela Merkel has done in Germany? | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
There is a real problem that the pressure we have got on | :48:58. | :49:00. | |
There is a real problem that the homes, unless the government is | :49:01. | :49:03. | |
prepared to create more jobs and homes it will be hugely contentious. | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
You don't think it's a good idea? These asylum seekers have taken our | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
jobs and homes... The truth is that Labour and Tory governments haven't | :49:15. | :49:19. | |
created enough. Would you now say, let's take in 20,000, 30,000, 40,000 | :49:20. | :49:26. | |
Syrian migrants or Iraqis but Mark I come from Brent and when we have a | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
crisis in 72 when Ugandans were kicked out of their country, the | :49:33. | :49:35. | |
Edward Heath government asked councils like Brent to take 10000 | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
and they gave financial support to build homes. -- or Iraqis? If people | :49:40. | :49:48. | |
are coming you have to plan and build homes and make sure more jobs | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
will be created. That is the problem, we have a system as was | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
shown last week with the statistics, we can't control our borders so we | :49:57. | :50:01. | |
can't control the numbers coming in and plan accordingly. No responsible | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
government should be constantly looking backwards and saying, hold | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
on, our policy will be catching up. That is currently what the situation | :50:11. | :50:11. | |
is. Now - our Guest of the Day, | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
Ken Livingstone, is perhaps best It's often said that the capital | :50:16. | :50:18. | |
is a Labour city - the party has most of the city's MPs | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
and assembly members - but it's actually only | :50:24. | :50:26. | |
won the mayoralty once, Ken standing as an independent | :50:27. | :50:28. | |
in the first contest in 2000. and exciting innovation | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
for Londoners. If there's a big turnout | :50:33. | :50:55. | |
and there is a yes vote, He wanted to be Labour's candidate. | :50:56. | :50:57. | |
banked on was this man, and pushed his then Health Secretary | :50:58. | :51:22. | |
Frank Dobson instead. Why doesn't he split the job | :51:23. | :51:24. | |
of Mayor for London? The former Health Secretary can run | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
as his day mayor and the honourable | :51:30. | :51:32. | |
member for Brent East He's thinking | :51:33. | :51:33. | |
about it, I can tell! So when Ken Livingstone wasn't | :51:34. | :51:41. | |
selected as Labour's candidate, He lost the Labour whip, | :51:42. | :51:50. | |
but he won the election. As I was saying before | :51:51. | :51:57. | |
I was so rudely interrupted Incidentally, the campaign hadn't | :51:58. | :52:00. | |
been great fun Their original candidate, | :52:01. | :52:04. | |
one Jeffrey Archer, had rather unceremoniously bowed out | :52:05. | :52:10. | |
following those perjury charges. He was replaced by Steve Norris, | :52:11. | :52:12. | |
who decided to run again in 2004. By that time, Ken | :52:13. | :52:18. | |
Livingstone had been welcomed back I always said Ken would | :52:19. | :52:20. | |
make a great mayor. But fast forward four years, | :52:21. | :52:27. | |
and a new Tory kid on the block. It was a hard-fought | :52:28. | :52:42. | |
campaign, And as for Ken, Mayor Livingstone, | :52:43. | :52:44. | |
I can tell you that your courage with which you stuck it | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
to your enemies, especially in New Labour, | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
you have thereby earned the thanks and admiration of millions | :52:53. | :52:55. | |
of Londoners, even if you may think | :52:56. | :52:58. | |
that they have a funny way Boris "hung on" four years later, | :52:59. | :53:00. | |
once again beating Ken Livingstone So in 16 years, London has | :53:01. | :53:15. | |
had just two mayors. Come May, there will | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
have to be a third. is a former Conservative mayoral | :53:20. | :53:25. | |
candidate who faced Ken Livingstone twice - | :53:26. | :53:34. | |
in 2000 and 20004. Welcome to the programme, | :53:35. | :53:36. | |
Steve Norris. Is London a Labour City? You look at | :53:37. | :53:46. | |
the number of seats and the way they performed at local elections | :53:47. | :53:49. | |
recently, it is a Labour City? If you look at the difference between | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
what Labour got in the general election and in London it is quite | :53:54. | :54:00. | |
striking, 31% nationally and over 40% in London. Ken is the great | :54:01. | :54:08. | |
election Guru in London. To assume that the mayoralty will always be a | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
Labour fiefdom could be very dangerous. Boris Johnson is still | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
until he steps down the mayor, but has it gone so far now that there is | :54:18. | :54:28. | |
an inevitability that the City is on course to pick a Labour candidate? | :54:29. | :54:35. | |
No, it is a battle between inner and outer London and I didn't get it out | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
well enough in the first election, lots of people said, we don't | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
particularly like the idea, it is another layer of bureaucracy. We did | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
better in the second term. The margin closed between me and Ken and | :54:49. | :54:53. | |
Boris got more out and you can have a Tory in London and I don't see any | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
reason to disbelieve that. Labour is actually now a London party, | :54:59. | :55:01. | |
everything seems to be focused there in terms of the Shadow Cabinet | :55:02. | :55:07. | |
positions, the leader of the party, Shadow Chancellor, it is just a | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
London party. Not really. The simple fact is that whereas 40 years ago | :55:12. | :55:17. | |
people always voted the same way, they never changed, people will | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
change their mind on the way to the polling station, it has become | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
celebrity politics and I loathe that. I like boring old arguments. I | :55:26. | :55:33. | |
hated all of that. I came into politics to do things. You were | :55:34. | :55:39. | |
still seen as a character? Margaret Thatcher created that by depleting | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
me as a threat to national security. You fought two campaigns, what | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
advice would you give to Zac Goldsmith? To actually get on and | :55:49. | :55:51. | |
make sure the outer ring boats for you because if you look at Boris's | :55:52. | :55:58. | |
performance, he won by 60,000 plus. Because he had broader appeal. A big | :55:59. | :56:06. | |
turnout in Bromley. If you get the vote out in Bromley, Bexley, Croydon | :56:07. | :56:12. | |
for the Conservatives, you win, and if you fail to do that, you don't. | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
You once told a journalist that the more you got to know Ken, the less | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
you liked him. I was quoting Neil Kinnock. Everybody likes Ken | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
Livingstone apart from the people who know him! I was quoting other | :56:26. | :56:33. | |
politicians, as it happens, I won't name them. Do you still support | :56:34. | :56:40. | |
Sadiq Khan? Absolutely, like me he wants to do things and he is really | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
focused on detail, a very effective minister. There is already quite a | :56:45. | :56:51. | |
lot of Islamophobia in Standard. I think as well it will be a | :56:52. | :56:55. | |
significant breakthrough if London shows that in a western country and | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
Muslim can be elected in a senior position, that will be reassuring to | :57:00. | :57:03. | |
a lot of Muslims who don't feel they are part of the country. Have things | :57:04. | :57:08. | |
gone sour between you? A recent editorial in the Evening Standard | :57:09. | :57:12. | |
encouraged Londoners to vote for Jeremy Corbyn's vision of a better | :57:13. | :57:19. | |
City. Sadiq Khan gave an interview to the Jewish Chronicle in which he | :57:20. | :57:22. | |
said, I won't be another Ken Livingstone. Me and Boris should | :57:23. | :57:29. | |
keep out of this and we should focus on the two candidates we have got. | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
You could not have a more striking contrast. Ordinary London guy whose | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
dad was a bus driver against one of the bridges people in Britain. Will | :57:38. | :57:44. | |
you go for his seat in tooting? I am a retired pensioner! You were | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
involved in convening the defence review. That brought you back from | :57:49. | :57:55. | |
retirement. It is quite interesting. We can discuss Trident! We can do | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
that on another occasion. Will it be dirty? Sadiq Khan is getting | :58:01. | :58:03. | |
oversensitive about this business. About being Muslim. Zac Goldsmith | :58:04. | :58:09. | |
said he was a radical and he complained bitterly, saying that he | :58:10. | :58:16. | |
was a smear, but Sadiq Khan described himself as radical. These | :58:17. | :58:21. | |
things will play, this is a big prize with serious candidates. As | :58:22. | :58:25. | |
far as I'm concerned the result is still in the balance. It is nice to | :58:26. | :58:28. | |
bring sparring partners back together. | :58:29. | :58:29. | |
There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz. | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
The question was which of the following Labour politicians | :58:34. | :58:35. | |
Liam Byrne, John McDonnell, Lord Falconer, or Toby Perkins? | :58:36. | :58:39. | |
Who hasn't grown a beard? My guess would be Toby Perkins. It is your | :58:40. | :58:49. | |
friend John McDonnell Viktoria Gunes have you not noticed? It is just | :58:50. | :58:54. | |
that he forgot to shave. -- it is your friend John McDonnell! | :58:55. | :58:56. | |
The One o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now. | :58:57. | :59:01. | |
I'll be back at 11:30 tomorrow with Andrew | :59:02. | :59:02. | |
We are told that OJ Simpson IS in that car, | :59:03. | :59:07. | |
Do you think he did it? She was terrified of him. | :59:08. | :59:16. | |
Give me the gun. I want him to finish this day alive. | :59:17. | :59:20. |