02/03/2016 Daily Politics


02/03/2016

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LineFromTo

Morning, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.

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The Government's published a report today

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claiming that all alternatives to EU membership

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and would leave us weaker and less safe.

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No surprise those camaigning to leave the EU

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We'll be talking to former Conservative chancellor

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Norman Lamont, who wants to leave the EU.

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It looks like it'll be Trump vs Clinton come November's

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and look like being their respective parties' candidates.

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And Times journalist Hugo Rifkind gives us his take on the battle

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between Apple and the FBI over an an iPhone linked

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Battles we will always bound to lose against digital piracy, pornography,

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and soft drugs, but now we are looking at battles that really

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matter, terrorism, organised crime, and those battles are much harder to

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fight. All that in the next hour and a half

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and with us for the duration, Cabinet Office Minister, Matt

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Hancock, the only government minister brave enough to appear on

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our programme, and Shadow Scottish Secretary, Ian Murray, the only

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Labour MP in Scotland. Welcome to both of you. Now let's gaze into the

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Daily Politics Crystal Ball, and find out what the UK would look like

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if it left the EU. Actually we can't do that because we can't afford a

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crystal ball. But a new report, published by the government, which

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backs staying in, does attempt to do that, and, you have guessed it, the

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report paints a pretty bleak picture.

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The report, required by law under the European Referendum Act,

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declares that the UK would be "weaker, less safe and worse off"

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if it left the EU, with the gloomy analysis arguing that an exit

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from the EU would see fewer jobs and rising prices.

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The report also looks at non-EU alternative arrangements.

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It argues that UK would have to revert to World Trade Organisation

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rules and accept new costly tariffs on UK exports to the EU.

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It also states that non-EU members Norway and Switzerland still have

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to make financial contributions to the EU and accept principle

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as part of their trading arrangements.

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While it warns that Switzerland and Canada's arrangements provide

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only limited access to the single market.

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Foreign secretary Philip Hammond declared that

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"hard-headed analysis shows working people

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the pro-exit Work and Pensions Secretary,

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He has called the report a "dodgy dossier" that "won't fool anyone."

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The government says that we would be weaker, we would be less safe, we

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would be worse off if we left the European Union, presumably that is

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true, whether or not we we negotiated a new deal. That is

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looking at all of the difficult options available. Even if the Prime

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Minister had not achieved a renegotiation, that would be true?

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The good thing... If he had not, that would still be true? It is

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hypothetical, we did get a good renegotiation, the fact that we get

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better competitiveness and an ever closer union, ever closer union

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ending, which to me, is really important, we got those advantages,

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we have the best of both worlds. Even if you had not come you say it

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is hypothetical, it is not, Prime Minister told us that if he did not

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get a deal, he said I would rule nothing out. So if he did not have a

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deal, would he have plumped for a future in which he would be weaker

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and less safe and worse off? We would be those things if we left the

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European Union... With or without a deal? Compare to what is on the

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table. Also compared to the status quo before renegotiation. The

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analysis is about the comparison of the good deal we have got, or,

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leaving altogether. And so actually, the question of what we are

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comparing, we are comparing the deal that we have got, positive, for

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competitiveness, ending the ever closer union... The point I'm fine

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to get you to address, if there is such a big gamble in which so much

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would go wrong, it must be true that it would have been wrong to take the

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gamble whether or not we got a renegotiation. In the manifesto we

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committed to having a referendum, everyone is pleased we are having a

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referendum. Really? Even the Prime Minister? S, he committed to having

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it... Why have a referendum? You are saying it would be weaker, less

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safe, sterling would plummet, uncertainty... Tariff barriers...

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All of that! Sodom and Camorra! Why would you risk a referendum? We have

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promised, in the manifesto, and we are fulfilling that commitment, that

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is why we are having this, and for years, politicians before my time

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promised a referendum and it never got delivered. -- Sodom and

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Gomorrah. We can settle this for a generation. Even though leaving is

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so boring, in your view. It ends the drive towards ever closer union,

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against better competitiveness, those are important changes. --

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abhorrent. That means that we can be in the European Union but not on

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track to a single country called Europe. That is an important change,

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and on the economics of it, that is paramount for me, that is what got

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me into this politics in the first place, the economics are not

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ambiguous, the deal we have got is better than the alternatives.

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Looking at the alternatives, Norway is one example, that you look at and

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dismiss, you say that 75% of EU law has got to be adopted by Norway,

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what does that mean? That is based on lists... What is the figure based

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on? It is based on what happens in Norway. What is the source? The

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Foreign Office have analysed the situation that happens in Norway,

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Switzerland, Canada, and looked at the WTO. I looked at the compiling

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of the figures, the EU does not dispute these figures, between 2000

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and 2013, there were 52,000 legal instruments issued by the EU, Norway

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adopted 4724... 9%... Where does this 75% come from? That is from the

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Foreign Office. I am asking where they got it from, the after

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secretary act compiles these figures, their figure is 9%, where

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does 75 come from? It comes on the analysis of the impact on Norway.

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Only 100 of these changes required primary legislation. Only 100 out of

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52,000... That is not 75%. A huge amount of legislation goes through,

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primary legislation, secondary legislation. That is the 9%. What

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you are not disputing, and that nobody can dispute, if you choose

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the New Zealand option, then you end up with the rules and regulations.

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You end up with the free movement of people. You end up with the rules

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without having to say over them. How many EU rules... Switzerland given

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as example, how many rules does it right into its law? It is 0%, I can

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tell you. Switzerland is a different type of deal, they do not have full

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access to the single market, but they still have free movement of

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people. It is a different example. They do not have access to services.

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But, as you know, there is no single market in services. There is and we

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are strengthening it, part of the deal and the competitiveness of the

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deal that the promised brought back is all about our arguments to

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strengthen the services to the single market. The digital market,

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that is beginning stronger. The key point is this, the majority of our

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collar me is services. Indeed. To be in the Swiss position where you are

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not involved in the single market, you do not have full access, that

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would hit jobs and prospects. If not having access to the single market

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is such a disadvantage, Switzerland does not have it, how come, per

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capita, Twitter link exports five times as much as we do? Physically

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it is much closer and surrounded by the European Union. That has nothing

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to do with it. Geography is almost irrelevant in the digital age!

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Island is the only country... Switzerland, historically, has

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always been next to... Most of the exports to Ireland do not go through

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the Northern Ireland border, having aborted makes no difference. --

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Switzerland exports five times as much as we do. Only one tenth of EU

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exports come to the UK, that shows that in a renegotiation, were we to

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leave, then our argument for being able to export to the Yukon would be

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much more... We would need that more than they would need the 10% from

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last. -- to the EU. If it is a disadvantage, why has America,

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Canada and Australia increased their exports to the European Union in the

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past 20 years far more quickly than we have? Having increased trade

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across the world, because we started with a high position, because Europe

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is next door to us, increased trade around the world has happened right

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across the world. Increased trade between the US and... Why have they

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done better than us, we are inside and they are not, why is it such an

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advantage? They have not done better than us in absolute terms but they

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are trading more with the world, with China, as well, the Americans.

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It comes back to this, all of these options have big downsides in terms

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of access to the single market, or, you have to abide by the rules

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anyway. What we do not know, what underpins this discussion, all the

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different options, we do not know what leaving would look like, we do

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not know what the options are. Anybody who wants to leave is

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putting forward. You also talk about how Europe would impose tariffs, if

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we did that, we would impose tariffs on Europe, why do you presume that

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would happen at all, when from Iceland, in the north Atlantic, to

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Turkey, in Asia Minor, whether you are a member of the year you are

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not, there are no tariffs. Why would the Europeans pick on us? That is

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not accurate, looking at the trade deal being done with Canada. I said

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from Iceland down to Turkey, the outermost stretches of the

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continent, from Iceland all the way through to Turkey, there are no

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tariffs. Whether you are in the EU or out. For goods. So, why would the

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Europeans pick on us? The only one that has them, Belarus. Why would

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the Europeans position as with Belarus, that is what you are

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saying. That is what is presumed? No, not at all, it looks at what

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happens if we do not end up in the single market, if you do not have

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the free movement of people, then, the WTO rules, the World Trade

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Organisation rules allow tariffs of up to 10% on things like cars, and

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in fact, only this morning... This is not just coming from me. Why

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would the European Union, our allies, our friends, whether we are

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in or out, why would they pick on us when there is not another country

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through the whole European continent that has these tariffs? You have

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just named one. Belarus? LAUGHTER That is a Stalinist dictatorship!

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Are you saying the European Union would file us with a Stalinist

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dictatorship? I am not! But, some of the people who want to leave argue

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for a trade deal like with Canada, and the Canadian example, even

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though it is not yet passed, it includes these tariffs, but the key

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point is this, you do not just have to take it from me, from the Foreign

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Office, from the Foreign Secretary, listen this morning to the justice

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minister, who wants to leave, he argued that yes, tariffs in things

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like services and agriculture may go up slightly. You do not have to take

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it only from me. What I want from people who want to leave is an

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explanation of what would look like, because I care deeply about the jobs

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and livelihoods of British people and that is what has made me decide

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to vote to remain, because I care about the future stability and

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security of the economy and we just do not know what things would look

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like if we left. We will be coming back with more questions, don't go

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away. It is clear that the Shadow Cabinet

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backs David Cameron's position but Jeremy Corbyn will not share a

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platform with David Cameron, will you embrace this dossier and what

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has been set out and use it in the labour campaign? The issue about the

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dossier is that we do not know what it looks like, the Foreign Office

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have try to put together some kind of document. -- Labour campaign. I

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fear that we are in a position where the UK Government is putting forward

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all of the downsides without the positive case for staying in, like

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with the Scotland referendum. Would use the claims being made that all

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of the alternative, as we have just been through, in terms of EU

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membership, would be worse for Britain? EU membership is good for

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Britain, being out of the European Union would be bad for Britain, we

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all agree on that, we want to stay in. If you take that as the premise,

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the dossier is trying to find their way through what Britain would look

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like not being part of the European Union. Is it useful? The ad campaign

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would tell us what that looks like. What the questioning has shown is

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that nobody knows what it would look like armour that is why we are

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better off in, whether it is for trade or jobs or investment, we are

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part of the European Union project. -- nobody knows what it would look

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like, that is why we are better off. Did David Cameron do a good job with

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the renegotiation? It was a sideshow, some of it was even in the

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manifesto, so we do back that, but we must set that aside, we would be

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campaign to stay in the European Union with or without those changes.

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If those are the kind of changes he has got, we will accept those.

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Jeremy Corbyn is going to enthusiastically campaign to stay

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in, is he? Absolutely. That's why he wants a distinctive labour campaign,

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because we want the Labour message in this campaign to be brought

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forward. We don't want the internal squabbles of the Conservative Party

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to rule this campaign. Do you agree that it is jobs and people's

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livelihoods that should be at the centre, the forefront, of the remain

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campaign? I think it should be at the centre and forefront of every

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single campaign in terms of our pursuit -- constituency MPs. But

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there is also the big social side of the European Union, whether it be

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holiday pay, but hers in paternity issues. The social side of Europe is

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incredibly important. Thank you. Last night across the pond,

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Democrat Hillary Clinton and Republican Donald Trump

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were celebrating their victories in yesterday's so-called

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Super Tuesday polls. Super Tuesday is when 11 states

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choose their candidates for the presidency, and it can be

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a turning point in the race. What a super Tuesday! Surely only

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the Americans could make a Tuesday super. All the candidates had some

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success last night. The Republicans' Ted Cruise taking three states, his

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rival, Marco Rubio, one. For the Democrats, Bernie Sanders won four

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states. But it was the night that the presidential race seemed to

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narrow to being a battle between these two and they're setting their

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sights on each other. She's been there for so long. If she hasn't

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straightened it out by now, she's not going to straighten it out in

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the next four years. It's just going to become worse and worse. It's

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clear to me that the stakes in this election have never been higher. And

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the rhetoric we're hearing on the other side has never been lower. The

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pantomime villain for the Democrats is worrying some Republicans and Mr

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Trump, even though Ted Cruise is behind you, his call for his rivals

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to dropout may start to resonate. So long as the field remains divided,

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Donald Trump's path to the nomination remains more likely. And

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that would be a disaster for Republicans. And yet last night

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Donald Trump seemed to strike a conciliatory tone. I'm a unifier. I

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know people are going to find that hard to believe but believe me, I am

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a unifier. Much of this campaign has been hard to believe and be election

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isn't even till November. Thank you all very much.

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We're joined now by Kate Andrews from Republicans Overseas

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and by the MP Sir Simon Burns, who makes no secret of his support

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He's even got a selfie with Hillary Clinton to prove it.

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We won't show that now. It's daytime television! Kate Andrews, are you

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now reconciled to Donald Trump being your party's candidate? I think

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anyone looking at this race would have to assume that he is the very,

:19:18.:19:22.

very likely Republican candidate. Something interesting that came out

:19:23.:19:25.

of last night is how well Senator Ted Cruise did do in a lot of the

:19:26.:19:30.

states. He did well in his own state of Texas and Oklahoma. Second place

:19:31.:19:37.

is very important because it is awarded proportionally it isn't

:19:38.:19:43.

winner take all. You raise a very interesting point. It is very

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interesting. I would suggest it helps Mr Trump that Mr Cruise is

:19:53.:19:59.

still in the race because the Rubio/ Cruz vote will split and Mr Trump

:20:00.:20:07.

will almost certainly win Florida. At this point to... The grand old

:20:08.:20:15.

party needed the candidates to consolidate weeks ago before super

:20:16.:20:20.

Tuesday. Now that they haven't and Donald Trump is clearly in the lead,

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I wonder what their strategy will be. It is a bit radical but in some

:20:24.:20:27.

ways now, having more candidates in the race will take delegates away

:20:28.:20:32.

from Donald Trump as well. They might angle for burger convention.

:20:33.:20:35.

It hasn't happened in 60 years so I'm not calling that... Even I

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didn't cover that. That could be a strategy. Let's take it that Mrs

:20:41.:20:45.

Clinton has got the nomination sewn up. On the indictment over the

:20:46.:20:51.

e-mails over the Clinton's financing, over Rumsfeld, is unknown

:20:52.:20:56.

unknown. Let's part that. She'll be happy she up against Ardron? I would

:20:57.:21:01.

think so because it's quite extraordinary. Most politicians in

:21:02.:21:05.

the Western world, if they've behaved like Donald Trump has in the

:21:06.:21:08.

last two or three months, if they'd spoken over some of the things he's

:21:09.:21:13.

said, they would be toast, and yet he has gone from strength to

:21:14.:21:18.

strength with some things that are pretty distasteful, like mimicking

:21:19.:21:22.

someone who is distasteful etc. Doesn't seem to matter what he says.

:21:23.:21:30.

It doesn't because he seems to be appealing to a certain niche market

:21:31.:21:33.

of voters who are coming out in their droves to support him and if

:21:34.:21:38.

you then look at the policy proposals that he has, apart from

:21:39.:21:41.

the sound bites there isn't much flesh on them in the way that

:21:42.:21:46.

Hillary Clinton is addressing issues that are relevant to the people of

:21:47.:21:50.

America, like health care, the economy, the middle classes. But

:21:51.:21:56.

here's the issue, and I understand the White House view, which is that

:21:57.:21:59.

they are delighted it is Trump. They were terrified it was Rubio. They

:22:00.:22:03.

thought Rubio could win they're delighted it is Trump. But the

:22:04.:22:11.

problem is that no Democratic front runner in recent memory has gone

:22:12.:22:17.

into a presidential campaign, at the general election, with as big a

:22:18.:22:20.

negative as Hillary Clinton. She is vulnerable. Of course she is

:22:21.:22:27.

vulnerable. But when it narrows down to the two candidates, so you don't

:22:28.:22:31.

have a choice of other people as the potential nominee, it will

:22:32.:22:34.

concentrate minds and when you look at the electoral arithmetic of the

:22:35.:22:39.

United States, California, New York, they have the two largest electoral

:22:40.:22:45.

colleges, just under 100, 270 votes, and when you then see the base of

:22:46.:22:50.

the Democratic party, and I think that the people who are

:22:51.:22:53.

idealistically supporting Senator Sanders at the moment will come home

:22:54.:22:58.

to the Democratic party when they realise the sheer horror of what is

:22:59.:23:01.

confronting America with the alternative. One of the things that

:23:02.:23:06.

could swing in Mr Trump's Wake on the general election is if he could

:23:07.:23:09.

attract what we used to call the Reagan Democrats, the former

:23:10.:23:14.

Democratic blue-collar men of Italian Irish background who voted

:23:15.:23:17.

for Mr Reagan in 1980 and not Mr Carter. Is there any sign Mr Trump

:23:18.:23:22.

could do that? Yes, I think the biggest make the rest -- mistake the

:23:23.:23:27.

Republican Party has made so far as to underestimate him and I think

:23:28.:23:30.

most Republicans are doing the same thing. He's not just winning a small

:23:31.:23:35.

proportion of radical votes, he's running Hispanics, he's willing

:23:36.:23:38.

African-Americans, he's winning women. Among Republican registered

:23:39.:23:44.

voters. In a lot of open primaries. In Iowa, 37% of the people who voted

:23:45.:23:50.

went Republicans, they were either Republicans or Democrats. He is

:23:51.:23:53.

appealing to a very wide base of people. But he is policy light in

:23:54.:23:57.

terms of what he stands for and he's really weak on the Fatton policy.

:23:58.:24:02.

You saw what Marco Rubio was able to do to him simply on the Obama care

:24:03.:24:06.

reform. When Hillary Clinton gets hold of him... She's a walking

:24:07.:24:15.

encyclopaedia of our civil stop I wouldn't necessarily agree that he

:24:16.:24:18.

is policy light, just that he is outrageously lacking in policy but

:24:19.:24:22.

will you have to understand is that the American people have been

:24:23.:24:26.

promised polity Saint for the better part of two decades. You had a

:24:27.:24:30.

president who promised hope and change and we haven't seen it. The

:24:31.:24:33.

American people stuff they like their salaries haven't gone up,

:24:34.:24:37.

those jobs aren't there. They're tired of it. It is a point that Mr

:24:38.:24:43.

Trump made in one of his post-victory speeches, Hillary

:24:44.:24:49.

Clinton is promising to do something about wages... His point is, they've

:24:50.:24:52.

been in power for the past eight years and were in power a lot before

:24:53.:24:56.

that as well. Why would it get any better? Because it is already

:24:57.:25:01.

getting better now and it is a sound bite from people who oppose

:25:02.:25:03.

President Obama, without taking into account what is behind it. No change

:25:04.:25:09.

since 2009? What is Obama care? He's the first president... Bad for the

:25:10.:25:15.

middle class. He is the first president who has managed to get

:25:16.:25:17.

health care reform through the Congress. You've also seem that they

:25:18.:25:24.

inherited an economy that had gone down the tubes thanks to George W

:25:25.:25:28.

Bush, who squandered the Bill Clinton surplus and now we are

:25:29.:25:33.

seeing the American economy picking up with wages beginning to improve,

:25:34.:25:38.

unemployment coming down. That is the future and the hope and Hillary

:25:39.:25:44.

Clinton would continue that. Just yes or no, do you fear Mr Trump gets

:25:45.:25:48.

the ticket you could lose the Senate? I think it's very possible.

:25:49.:25:52.

It's also possible that President Trump will come to fruition. Who is

:25:53.:25:57.

going to win? Hillary Clinton. Who is going to win? Between the two of

:25:58.:26:03.

them it is a toss-up, I would be terrified of I was Hillary Clinton.

:26:04.:26:08.

Clinton. I think it is very difficult to call. It is difficult

:26:09.:26:12.

for government ministers to make predictions, I understand.

:26:13.:26:15.

Now, this year is a big one for one of our avid viewers.

:26:16.:26:18.

I hope you're enjoying your gin and Dubonnet, Ma'am.

:26:19.:26:24.

In half an hour, you usually take it, after you been watching the

:26:25.:26:28.

show. And, to commemorate the birthday

:26:29.:26:29.

of our longest serving monarch, politicians are

:26:30.:26:32.

donning their pinnies and high-vis jackets

:26:33.:26:33.

to clean up Britain The Palace is commemorating the big

:26:34.:26:34.

day in its own way. They've released a selection

:26:35.:26:39.

of birthday china for Liz. For just ?55 you can

:26:40.:26:42.

get a cup and saucer or if you have ?89 to spare,

:26:43.:26:48.

you can purchase Hand finished in 22-carat gold,

:26:49.:26:50.

made from the finest English bone china and using traditional

:26:51.:26:58.

techniques that date back 250 years, these will add an elegant

:26:59.:27:01.

touch to your tableware. I always eat by big Mack of one of

:27:02.:27:10.

these. But why would you want a mug fit

:27:11.:27:14.

for a Queen when you can Yes, it's the Daily Politics mug -

:27:15.:27:17.

made from basic something or other, it's probably dishwasher safe

:27:18.:27:21.

and hopefully won't crack. But, if it does -

:27:22.:27:28.

we don't do returns. To win one, all you have to do

:27:29.:27:30.

is tell us what year this happened. Will he tell us

:27:31.:27:38.

what his position is? Madam Speaker, there's one

:27:39.:27:43.

Oh, no, there's one very big difference.

:27:44.:27:48.

follow the trawler, it's because they think sardines

:27:49.:28:08.

Nick Leeson became famous when he lost more than $1 billion

:28:09.:28:14.

John Major's never been the safety first politician he sometimes looks.

:28:15.:28:34.

To remove this uncertainty, I have this afternoon

:28:35.:28:38.

tendered my resignation as leader of the Conservative Party.

:28:39.:28:43.

action find the defendant Orenthal James Simpson not guilty

:28:44.:28:48.

To be in with a chance of winning a Daily Politics mug,

:28:49.:29:16.

send your answer to our special quiz email address -

:29:17.:29:19.

Entries must arrive by 12:30pm today, and you can see the full

:29:20.:29:23.

terms and conditions for Guess The Year on our website

:29:24.:29:25.

It's coming up to midday here - just take a look at Big Ben -

:29:26.:29:31.

Yes, Prime Minister's Questions is on its way.

:29:32.:29:34.

And that's not all - the BBC's deputy political editor

:29:35.:29:37.

Despite the divisions and beer unanimity in the Labour Party,

:29:38.:29:51.

Jeremy Corbyn has demonstrated much interest in raising this as an issue

:29:52.:29:56.

in PMQs. Wildie today? I'll be surprised. It's the open goal. You

:29:57.:30:00.

would think it is the natural weight of debate in Parliament but I think

:30:01.:30:06.

he might try and choose thing left field. Pensions may be. Lots of

:30:07.:30:11.

people are talking about that in terms of when the state pension age

:30:12.:30:16.

may be changed, what sort of transitional protection should be in

:30:17.:30:20.

place, particularly for women. He might go for something... Person I

:30:21.:30:23.

this report about child poverty. He could go on that. The government has

:30:24.:30:28.

announced this morning that they are not going to go ahead with the

:30:29.:30:31.

vaccines for meningitis, which has been a big story in the news in

:30:32.:30:36.

recent weeks. And go to stop you there. We'll find out.

:30:37.:30:53.

Patricia Gibson. Will the Prime Minister take this opportunity to

:30:54.:31:02.

confirm that the UK Government intended to take ?7 billion from

:31:03.:31:06.

Scotland, over a decade, through the fiscal framework West remark and

:31:07.:31:15.

will he take this opportunity to take this opportunity today to

:31:16.:31:20.

explain why that was the case. -- through the fiscal framework? Only

:31:21.:31:26.

the SNP can try to maintain a grievance after the settlement has

:31:27.:31:31.

taken place. What we have done is build a powerhouse parliament for

:31:32.:31:34.

Scotland with more powers, more ability to set tax rates, more

:31:35.:31:38.

ability to determine benefits for its citizens, and now is time for

:31:39.:31:44.

the SNP to stop talking about grievances, and get on with

:31:45.:31:45.

government! CHEERING CSA group in my constituency has

:31:46.:31:56.

recently taken on six new apprentices. Across my constituency

:31:57.:32:02.

we have had more than 1000 apprenticeship starts since 2014,

:32:03.:32:05.

does my right honourable friend agree that this is time for

:32:06.:32:09.

government to stick with the plan, so that even more governments have

:32:10.:32:14.

the ability to take on apprenticeships. We have a very

:32:15.:32:20.

stretching target for 3 million apprentices to be trained during

:32:21.:32:24.

this Parliament, we will do our bit, we want business to do its part, I

:32:25.:32:28.

contributing to the apprenticeship levy, but we need small businesses

:32:29.:32:33.

like CSA, in her constituency, and indeed the public sector, to get

:32:34.:32:36.

fully involved in training apprentices to give young people the

:32:37.:32:40.

chance to earn and learn at the same time. Jeremy Corbyn. It is three

:32:41.:32:52.

years since the government announced a policy of tax free childcare.

:32:53.:32:57.

Could the Prime Minister tell us what is the hold-up? We are

:32:58.:33:04.

introducing that, along with the 30 hours of childcare, for everyone

:33:05.:33:10.

with a three and four-year-olds, with a ?6 billion commitment, with

:33:11.:33:14.

the start of the 30 hours coming in in a pilot scheme this year. Jeremy

:33:15.:33:22.

Corbyn. Mr Speaker, the Treasury website describes it as a long-term

:33:23.:33:25.

plan... LAUGHTER It certainly is that, it was

:33:26.:33:30.

announced in 2013, and is not apparently going to be introduced

:33:31.:33:34.

until next year. Could the Prime Minister tell us why his promise of

:33:35.:33:38.

30 hours free childcare for three and four-year-olds is not there for

:33:39.:33:44.

one in three working parents who want their children to be cared for

:33:45.:33:50.

in preschool? First of all, on the tax relief on childcare, we lost a

:33:51.:33:54.

court case against some of the existing providers, so there was a

:33:55.:33:57.

delay, and the tax free childcare will come in in 2017. As for the 30

:33:58.:34:03.

hours, as I have said, there will be pilot schemes this year, and full

:34:04.:34:07.

temperament Asian next year, in line with what we have said in the

:34:08.:34:10.

manifesto. I'm delighted he is helping me to promote government

:34:11.:34:15.

policy! CHEERING When I became Prime Minister I think

:34:16.:34:19.

we only had ten hours of childcare, now it has gone up to 12, and is now

:34:20.:34:24.

15, and is now 30. These are all the things you can do if you have a

:34:25.:34:29.

strong economy with a sound plan, you are getting your deficit down,

:34:30.:34:32.

your economy is growing, you are able to do all of these things.

:34:33.:34:35.

CHEERING I'm glad we are able to talk about

:34:36.:34:42.

them. Jeremy Corbyn. Today, the National Audit Office report

:34:43.:34:45.

confirms that one third of families promised 30 hours free childcare now

:34:46.:34:49.

will not receive it, this is a broken promise. The report also

:34:50.:34:55.

warns that many childcare providers are not offering the new entitlement

:34:56.:35:00.

due to insufficient funding. There are 41,003 -year-olds missing out on

:35:01.:35:05.

free early education as a result of this. -- 40 1000 three-year-old.

:35:06.:35:10.

Will the Prime Minister intervene and make sure those children get the

:35:11.:35:19.

start in life they deserve? -- 41,000 three-year-olds. The

:35:20.:35:23.

department has successfully in fermented entitlement to free

:35:24.:35:27.

childcare for three and four-year-olds with almost universal

:35:28.:35:30.

take-up of hours offered to parents. -- implemented universal

:35:31.:35:38.

entitlement. The Department has made significant progress in making free

:35:39.:35:42.

entitlement, parents and children are benefiting, stakeholders are

:35:43.:35:46.

positive about increasing the time to 30 hours. All of these things we

:35:47.:35:50.

are able to do because we have a strong and sound economy, what a

:35:51.:35:53.

contrast it would be if we listened to the right honourable gentleman,

:35:54.:35:58.

as I regularly subscribe to the Islington Tribune, I can announce

:35:59.:36:01.

his latest economic adviser, Yanis Varoufakis! He was the Greek finance

:36:02.:36:08.

minister, who left his economy in ruins! That is Labour's policy, into

:36:09.:36:22.

words, Acropolis -- in two words, " Acropolis now". That is not much

:36:23.:36:27.

help to the 41,000 children not benefiting from what they were

:36:28.:36:30.

promised by the government, looking further on in the education life of

:36:31.:36:33.

children, according to the figures from the government, half a million

:36:34.:36:38.

children in primary schools are in classes over 31, 15,000 are in

:36:39.:36:47.

classes of over 40, we all know the importance of both preschool and

:36:48.:36:50.

early years of education to give all of our children a decent start in

:36:51.:36:56.

life. And yet half a million are living in poverty and many are in

:36:57.:37:01.

oversized glasses, isn't it time for a serious government intervention to

:37:02.:37:06.

sort out this problem? -- oversized classes. Introducing the extra hours

:37:07.:37:12.

for childcare is a huge operation for the childcare providers, since

:37:13.:37:16.

the National Audit Office report, that said only 58% of disadvantaged

:37:17.:37:21.

to-year-olds were accessing the free childcare offer, the latest

:37:22.:37:24.

information shows it is over 70% of those. Now, he mentioned the number

:37:25.:37:31.

of teachers and overcrowded classes, there is 13,100 more teachers than

:37:32.:37:36.

there were in 2010, because we have invested in teach first, we have

:37:37.:37:40.

invested in bursaries, we have made sure that teaching is a worthwhile

:37:41.:37:44.

career, when it comes to school places, I want to answer him,

:37:45.:37:49.

because there is 453 fewer schools that are full or overcapacity,

:37:50.:37:57.

compare 220 ten. That is progress. 36,500 fewer pupils who are in

:37:58.:38:01.

schools that are overcrowded. Again, why have we been able to do this? We

:38:02.:38:05.

protected education funding, detected the money that went

:38:06.:38:08.

following every pupil in the school, introduced the pupil premium, the

:38:09.:38:12.

first time any government had recognised the extra needs of

:38:13.:38:14.

children from the most poor backgrounds. We did all of that, the

:38:15.:38:19.

school system is growing, there are more places, fewer overcrowded

:38:20.:38:22.

schools, all because they have the strong economy and the right values

:38:23.:38:28.

in place. Mr Speaker, the problem is that class sizes are growing, the

:38:29.:38:32.

problem is that there is a crisis of teacher shortages as well, and I

:38:33.:38:37.

have been talking, as I am sure the Prime Minister has, too many

:38:38.:38:41.

teachers, I have a question from one, I quote, from Tom, " I have

:38:42.:38:45.

been teaching for ten years and I am currently head of design and

:38:46.:38:48.

technology at a successful secondary school. With increasing numbers of

:38:49.:38:52.

teachers leaving the profession, will the government is now access

:38:53.:38:57.

that there is a crisis of recruitment and also of retention of

:38:58.:39:01.

teachers in this crucial profession?" I have given you the

:39:02.:39:06.

figures, there is 13,000 more teachers in schools than when I

:39:07.:39:10.

became Prime Minister, if he worries about teacher recruitment, explain

:39:11.:39:14.

this: how is it going to help his party's proposal to put up the basic

:39:15.:39:20.

rate of tax, starting in Scotland, that will mean classroom teachers,

:39:21.:39:24.

secondary school teachers, nursery teachers all paying more tax, what

:39:25.:39:29.

we are doing is helping teachers by saying, you can earn ?11,000 before

:39:30.:39:34.

you pay any income tax at all. I don't think that recruiting teachers

:39:35.:39:37.

is simply about money, it is also about having a good school system,

:39:38.:39:41.

which we have in place in this country, it certainly won't help if

:39:42.:39:45.

we listen to Labour and put up people's taxes. The Prime Minister

:39:46.:39:49.

seems to be in a bit of denial here. SHOUTING

:39:50.:39:55.

Ofsted and the National Audit Office all confirmed there is a shortage

:39:56.:40:01.

and a crisis of teachers. Ensuring there is another excellent teachers

:40:02.:40:04.

in our schools is fundamental to the life chances of children. When 70%

:40:05.:40:11.

of head teachers warned they are now using agency staff, is staff there

:40:12.:40:17.

are classroom, isn't it time the government intervened and looked at

:40:18.:40:21.

the real cost of this, damage to children's education, but also, ?1.3

:40:22.:40:26.

billion spent last year on agency teachers. We have this agency

:40:27.:40:30.

working situation in the National Health Service, and also in

:40:31.:40:34.

education, are we moving into an era in which we can turn it agency

:40:35.:40:40.

Britain? He has got to look at the facts, rather than talk down people

:40:41.:40:45.

working so hard to teach children in our schools. Teachers are better

:40:46.:40:49.

qualified than ever, that is the fact, 96.6% of teachers in state

:40:50.:40:53.

funded schools now have a degree or higher qualification. Those are the

:40:54.:41:00.

facts. I would argue that going into teaching, and now, teach first is

:41:01.:41:05.

the most popular destination for Oxbridge graduates, which never

:41:06.:41:08.

happened under a Labour government, if you want to encourage people to

:41:09.:41:11.

go into teaching, you have got to know you have a good school system

:41:12.:41:14.

with more academies, more free schools. -- Teach First. Higher

:41:15.:41:18.

qualification, making sure we have rig and discipline in the classroom,

:41:19.:41:23.

all of which has improved, but all of that is only possible if you have

:41:24.:41:27.

a strong and growing economy to fund the schools that our children need.

:41:28.:41:38.

In my constituency, we have one of several UK power stations, which has

:41:39.:41:42.

seen closure this year. In Germany and Holland, both of whose carbon

:41:43.:41:46.

emissions are higher, they are building brand-new mega power

:41:47.:41:53.

stations, much of that we are going to import. It is very hard, for me

:41:54.:41:58.

to expand the logic of this to my constituents, could the Prime

:41:59.:42:00.

Minister review the pace of our closure programme, particularly in

:42:01.:42:04.

the context of next year 's energy crunch. My honourable friend raises

:42:05.:42:10.

an important question, he is right, there is big change in the industry,

:42:11.:42:15.

we want to see an increase in gas capacity, an increase in renewable

:42:16.:42:19.

capacity and the restarting of the nuclear programme, which I hope to

:42:20.:42:23.

be discussing with the French president this week. He is right

:42:24.:42:26.

that security of supply must be the number one priority, that is why we

:42:27.:42:29.

have announced we will bring forward the capacity market to provide this

:42:30.:42:34.

extra boost to existing stations, this could indeed help Fiddlers

:42:35.:42:38.

Ferry itself. I say to him and everybody across the house, all of

:42:39.:42:43.

the decisions we take about energy, they have consequences for peoples

:42:44.:42:46.

bills. He mentions Germany, German electricity prices are 40% higher

:42:47.:42:51.

than in the UK, the level of subsidies makes up 30% of German

:42:52.:42:57.

bills, ours is less than half that level, and we have got to think

:42:58.:43:01.

through these decisions for the consequences for energy consumers.

:43:02.:43:07.

Angus Roberts and. We all have a right not to be disconnected

:43:08.:43:10.

against. On the basis of age, gender, six, sexual orientation,

:43:11.:43:15.

disability or ethnicity. Parents have right is to paternity and

:43:16.:43:24.

maternity entitlement. -- Angus Robertson. All of the things --

:43:25.:43:32.

semi-things are guaranteed through membership of the European Union,

:43:33.:43:35.

does the Prime Minister guarantee that there are due to social

:43:36.:43:38.

benefits to being members of the European Union. What we have done,

:43:39.:43:43.

including under this government, is actually add to the right that

:43:44.:43:48.

people have, including maternity and paternity rights. I think that the

:43:49.:43:52.

emphasis on Europe now needs to be making sure that weeks band the

:43:53.:43:56.

single market and make it more successful for businesses,

:43:57.:44:00.

recognising the social benefits matter as well but principally, I

:44:01.:44:04.

believe they are a matter for this house. Angus Robertson. Millions of

:44:05.:44:09.

UK citizens live elsewhere in the European Union, European decisions

:44:10.:44:14.

have helped the environment reducing sulphur dioxide emissions by nine

:44:15.:44:17.

tenths, relations between 28 EU member states are often imperfect

:44:18.:44:24.

but they occur through dialogue and agreement, surely a huge improvement

:44:25.:44:29.

on confrontations and wards of the past. With the Prime Minister

:44:30.:44:33.

concentrate on the positive arguments for EU membership, and

:44:34.:44:36.

reject the approach of "Project Fear". My arguments about being

:44:37.:44:42.

stronger in the refund European Union, and safer, and better off in

:44:43.:44:47.

the refund European Union, are all positive arguments, and I would add

:44:48.:44:51.

the point that he makes, things like pollution, crosses borders, and it

:44:52.:44:54.

makes sense to work together. The fundamental point he makes is one

:44:55.:44:59.

worth thinking about, he and I are both post-war children, but we

:45:00.:45:03.

should never forget, when we sit around the table, that 70 years ago,

:45:04.:45:07.

these countries were murdering each other, on the continent of Europe.

:45:08.:45:14.

For all the frustrated of this institution, and believe me, there

:45:15.:45:17.

are many, we should never forget that, the fact that we talk and work

:45:18.:45:21.

together and resolve disputes around the table. Alberto Costa. Those who

:45:22.:45:28.

foster children deserve our full support. To mark fostering February,

:45:29.:45:37.

I visited in my constituency a fostering unit which since

:45:38.:45:41.

establishment in 2003 has helped over 1250 children, find a loving

:45:42.:45:46.

and caring home. Would my right honourable friend join me in

:45:47.:45:51.

thanking the unit, as well as the carers, but would he also agreed to

:45:52.:45:54.

look into how the currently complex funding arrangements for over 18s

:45:55.:46:00.

could be considerably simplified to ease the transition of children into

:46:01.:46:01.

adult third. We all know as parents it is very

:46:02.:46:19.

important to give people the support they need. That's why we changed the

:46:20.:46:23.

law in the last parliament so local authorities are under a duty to

:46:24.:46:26.

support young people who choose to remain with their foster carers

:46:27.:46:30.

beyond the age of 18. We put in place what is called a staying put

:46:31.:46:34.

arrangement and are providing 40 formerly pounds over three years. In

:46:35.:46:38.

the first year of its roll-out, almost half of those eligible to

:46:39.:46:41.

stay but have decided to do so. This is a real advance in our fostering

:46:42.:46:48.

arrangements. Thank you, Mr Speaker. As this is my first ever question to

:46:49.:46:51.

the Prime Minister, I do hope... CHEERING

:46:52.:46:56.

I do hope my suit and tie matches mother's high expectations. Mr

:46:57.:47:03.

Speaker, in September last year, 16-year-old Mohammed was stabbed to

:47:04.:47:07.

death in my constituency. His mother discovered last week the CPS will

:47:08.:47:11.

not be prosecuting the man arrested for his murder. Sadly, she joins the

:47:12.:47:15.

84% people in Southwark are experienced by crime last year who

:47:16.:47:19.

have seen no one held to account. Home Office blamed local police for

:47:20.:47:22.

that Lopez occasioned great and I resent the position that my local

:47:23.:47:27.

elites are not up to the job. Will the Prime Minister ensure that my

:47:28.:47:30.

local police have the resources to investigate knife crime fully and

:47:31.:47:35.

bring more killers to justice? The honourable gentleman uses his first

:47:36.:47:37.

question to raise an incredibly important issue which is knife crime

:47:38.:47:40.

in our country. The good news is that knife crime has come down about

:47:41.:47:45.

14% since 2010 but he makes an important point about the level of

:47:46.:47:49.

prosecutions. Last year there were something like 11,000 prosecutions.

:47:50.:47:53.

The rate of prosecution is similar as for other areas but clearly

:47:54.:47:57.

everything we can do to help the police, the CPS to increase the rate

:47:58.:48:03.

of prosecution is wholly worthwhile. We need to give the police the

:48:04.:48:06.

resources they need and we are, through the spending round. We need

:48:07.:48:10.

to educate young people on the dangers of knife crime and we need

:48:11.:48:13.

to make sure those who commit these crimes are properly punished. Mr

:48:14.:48:23.

Bernard Jenkin. Where is the fellow? He's not here. Well let's hear from

:48:24.:48:33.

someone who is here, Mr David Davis. For five or six years... Order. I

:48:34.:48:43.

know the houses in a state of some motivation but we must hear from The

:48:44.:48:47.

Right Honourable gentleman when he's composed himself. Mr David Davis.

:48:48.:48:55.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. For five or six years, national insurance

:48:56.:48:59.

numbers issue to EU migrants have been hundreds of thousands higher

:49:00.:49:02.

than the official immigration figures. This implies the figures

:49:03.:49:07.

may be a dramatic underestimate. We can only know the truth of the

:49:08.:49:13.

matter is HMRC release the data on active EU national insurance buzz,

:49:14.:49:17.

which HMRC has refused to do. Will the Prime Minister instructed HMRC

:49:18.:49:23.

to release those statistics so that we know the truth about European

:49:24.:49:27.

immigration? And glad we've got the single transferable question, if not

:49:28.:49:35.

the single transferable vote. The reason why these numbers don't tally

:49:36.:49:39.

is you can get a national insurance number for a very short-term visit

:49:40.:49:42.

and people who are already here without insurance number can apply

:49:43.:49:46.

for them, so these numbers are quite complex. The HMRC has given greater

:49:47.:49:51.

information and I will make sure that continues to be the case. The

:49:52.:49:58.

proposed changes to Sunday trading are causing great concern to many

:49:59.:50:04.

retailers, shop workers, to their families, to faith groups and to all

:50:05.:50:09.

who want to Keep Sunday Special, get before the election the Prime

:50:10.:50:14.

Minister said he had no plans to change Sunday Trading laws. When did

:50:15.:50:19.

he change his mind or was it always his plan to scrap this great British

:50:20.:50:22.

compromise as soon as the election was safely out of the way? Well, I

:50:23.:50:27.

thought it was right to bring forward these proposals because they

:50:28.:50:33.

are genuinely new proposals. New in that we are devolving to local

:50:34.:50:37.

authorities to make those decisions and secondly, crucially, I'm sure

:50:38.:50:41.

honourable members opposite will be interested in this, we will be

:50:42.:50:45.

introducing new protections not only for new workers on Sundays but for

:50:46.:50:49.

all workers on Sundays and so I think the house should look

:50:50.:50:53.

carefully at this idea, not least because our constituents are able to

:50:54.:50:58.

shop online all day, every day, including Sunday. All the evidence

:50:59.:51:02.

shows this will be welcomed by customers, will create more jobs and

:51:03.:51:07.

I think we have nothing to be scared of moving into this new arrangement.

:51:08.:51:16.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. At the weekend I visited a Young enterprise

:51:17.:51:24.

trade fair where teams from across local Staffordshire schools,

:51:25.:51:27.

including Rugeley sixth form Academy, where showcasing their

:51:28.:51:31.

entrepreneurial skills. Will my right honourable friend join me in

:51:32.:51:33.

wishing good luck to all of the teams and does he agree that with

:51:34.:51:39.

me, initiatives such as this are key to inspiring the next generation of

:51:40.:51:44.

entrepreneurs? I think my honourable friend makes an important point,

:51:45.:51:47.

which is four years in our schools not enough was done to encourage

:51:48.:51:51.

enterprise and entrepreneurship when we know that so many jobs of the

:51:52.:51:55.

future will come from start-up businesses and small businesses and

:51:56.:51:59.

rapidly growing start-ups, so it is absolutely right that in our schools

:52:00.:52:02.

we should be promoting enterprise, not only through teaching but also

:52:03.:52:07.

to exercises including starting businesses for young people by

:52:08.:52:15.

giving them small grants. Yesterday, a north-east SME ceased to trade.

:52:16.:52:18.

Their goal was the extraction of gas from coal deep under the North Sea.

:52:19.:52:24.

The Government failed to abide -- provide a supporting statement to

:52:25.:52:29.

support investment due to its inability to compound that not only

:52:30.:52:32.

would the company secure our energies apply but also provide

:52:33.:52:36.

feedstocks to grow our industries and all of that totally decarbonise

:52:37.:52:40.

stop Will the Prime Minister look at this appalling loss of opportunity

:52:41.:52:43.

and urgently change course and develop a meaningful industrial and

:52:44.:52:48.

energy strategy that British industry and workers and the planet

:52:49.:52:53.

so badly need? I will certainly look at the case that he raises because

:52:54.:52:57.

we back all energy projects that could create jobs and create growth

:52:58.:53:02.

in our country and we have a very active industrial strategy for that.

:53:03.:53:07.

I know that he's disappointed about our decision on carbon capture and

:53:08.:53:10.

storage but I would say to him that that is an extra capital investment

:53:11.:53:16.

and even after that, there is no sign yet that carbon capture or

:53:17.:53:21.

storage can be even close to competitive to even nuclear power

:53:22.:53:23.

offshore wind but I will look carefully E mentions. -- at the case

:53:24.:53:33.

he mentions. A large proportion of the fish caught by British vessels

:53:34.:53:37.

and landed in the UK are exported to Europe, mainly to EU countries, and

:53:38.:53:41.

a great many of our fishermen fish in the sovereign waters of other

:53:42.:53:44.

European Union countries. In a reformed regime, reforms that were

:53:45.:53:50.

led by the British government. Does my right honourable friend agree

:53:51.:53:54.

that our sees, those that exploit them and the communities that they

:53:55.:53:58.

support, are better off in a reformed European Union? I agree

:53:59.:54:03.

with my honourable friend and I pay tribute to him for the huge work

:54:04.:54:08.

that he did to reform the common fisheries policy from what was a

:54:09.:54:13.

very poor policy to one that is now working much better for our

:54:14.:54:17.

fishermen. When it comes to fishing and farming, the key issue is going

:54:18.:54:20.

to be making sure that Europe's markets remain open to the produce

:54:21.:54:25.

that we land and we produce and that I think is going to be vital in the

:54:26.:54:31.

debate in the months ahead. When more than 16,000... 1600 families

:54:32.:54:38.

are on York's waiting list, when care workers are forced to leave the

:54:39.:54:43.

city due to the cost of renting, when young families are placed in

:54:44.:54:47.

single rooms in homeless hostels and when supported housing schemes will

:54:48.:54:51.

have to close due to benefit changes, can the Prime Minister

:54:52.:54:58.

specifically state why, up to 2500 predominantly high-value homes are

:54:59.:55:01.

being planned for development in York Central without building a

:55:02.:55:06.

single home for social rent? The decisions made in York about

:55:07.:55:10.

planning for York City Council and their local plan but what I would

:55:11.:55:15.

say to her, one of the things that we did in the last parliament was

:55:16.:55:20.

specifically designed to help York, was to change the change of use

:55:21.:55:24.

provisions so that empty offices could be used to build flats and

:55:25.:55:28.

houses for local people, which is happening in York and will help to

:55:29.:55:32.

make sure that city continues to thrive. Will my right honourable

:55:33.:55:38.

friend agree to meet me and my constituent William Lawrie, a

:55:39.:55:40.

brilliant young farmer whose business has been put at risk

:55:41.:55:44.

because the RPA haven't paid his basic payment scheme money? Will he

:55:45.:55:50.

also confirmed that the RPA figures that they keep putting out our

:55:51.:55:54.

fictional, or does he agree with his Defra secretary that it is the EU's

:55:55.:56:00.

commissioners' fault for making the cap so compensated? What I would say

:56:01.:56:05.

to my honourable friend is that the system is complicated and we need to

:56:06.:56:09.

make sure that the rural payments agency does the very best that it

:56:10.:56:15.

can. To date, 70,000 farmers have received their 2015 payments, which

:56:16.:56:20.

is now 81% of all claims paid but there is always room for

:56:21.:56:22.

improvement. We should look at all the devolved areas of the UK and see

:56:23.:56:27.

how they are coping with this problem. In terms of the issue more

:56:28.:56:32.

broadly, I think it's very important we maintain the access that our

:56:33.:56:36.

farmers have without tariffs, without tax, without quota, to

:56:37.:56:39.

produce the cleanest and best food anywhere in the world and explored

:56:40.:56:46.

it -- export it to 500 million people in the EU single market.

:56:47.:56:51.

Yesterday the chair of the board of international campaign for Tibet

:56:52.:56:57.

came to the House of Commons to meet with members of parliament as well

:56:58.:57:01.

as you, Mr Speaker. Will the Prime Minister follow the example set by

:57:02.:57:07.

the United States, Canada, Germany and Japan and write to the Chinese

:57:08.:57:10.

authorities to express his concerns about their oppressive

:57:11.:57:13.

counterterrorism laws, introduced in Tibet? I wasn't aware of that visit.

:57:14.:57:21.

I will look very closely at what he said and perhaps get back to the

:57:22.:57:24.

honourable lady about the issues he raises. In 2004, the 16-year-old

:57:25.:57:37.

some of my constituent Lorraine Fraser was murdered by a gang and

:57:38.:57:40.

the conviction of four of them was secured by joint enterprise. The

:57:41.:57:44.

recent ruling in the Supreme Court has caused Lorraine and many other

:57:45.:57:48.

Victors' families a great deal of anxiety. Would my right are both

:57:49.:57:51.

friend agreed to facilitate a meeting to enable these families to

:57:52.:57:55.

discuss their concerns with ministers and understand what the

:57:56.:57:57.

ruling might mean in cases like there's? Well, through my honourable

:57:58.:58:05.

friend, can I extend my sympathy is to his constituents? He is

:58:06.:58:08.

absolutely right, we should remember that the families of all those

:58:09.:58:10.

who've lost loved ones to dreadful crimes who are worried about this

:58:11.:58:13.

judgment and what it might mean for them. I'm very happy to facilitate a

:58:14.:58:18.

meeting between him and one of the justice ministers to discuss it. We

:58:19.:58:21.

should be clear that this judgment only referred to a narrow category

:58:22.:58:24.

of joint enterprise cases and I think it would be wrong to suggest

:58:25.:58:28.

that everyone convicted under the wider law on joint enterprise will

:58:29.:58:31.

have grounds for appeal. It is very important that message goes out but

:58:32.:58:34.

I will fix the meeting that he calls for. People in the Midlands are

:58:35.:58:40.

absolutely furious to learn that the Government's awarded a contract to

:58:41.:58:42.

make British medals to some French company. Imagine it, Mr Speaker. You

:58:43.:58:48.

open your distinguished service order or CBE and it says "Made in

:58:49.:58:58.

France". I visited Midlands metal manufacturers in Birmingham's

:58:59.:59:01.

jewellery Quarter. They are the best in the world. We should go back to

:59:02.:59:07.

Downing Street -- he should go back to Downing Street, call in the

:59:08.:59:10.

Cabinet Office minister and get this scandal sorted out. The only point

:59:11.:59:13.

Cabinet Office minister and get this would make to the honourable

:59:14.:59:17.

gentleman is, I'm sure all of those in the Royal Mint in Wales would

:59:18.:59:22.

want to contest the fact that they make the finest medals in the United

:59:23.:59:25.

Kingdom and I'm sure the competition between them and Birmingham is very

:59:26.:59:29.

intense. I'll certainly take away what he says. I wasn't aware of this

:59:30.:59:33.

issue but I'm always in favour, where we can make something in

:59:34.:59:36.

Britain, we should make something in Britain. A recent investigation

:59:37.:59:45.

carried out by my local newspaper, the Derby Telegraph, uncovered

:59:46.:59:47.

reports of alleged experiments carried out on children by medics at

:59:48.:59:52.

a medical facility in Derbyshire during the 1960s and 1970s. Can I

:59:53.:59:57.

ask the Prime Minister to ensure that a thorough investigation into

:59:58.:00:01.

this situation is now undertaken? I'm very happy to give my honourable

:00:02.:00:04.

friend that assurance. She is absolutely right to raise this. They

:00:05.:00:08.

are very serious allegations and it's vital that the full facts are

:00:09.:00:12.

considered. My understanding is that the police, the local authority and

:00:13.:00:16.

NHS working together and there's an inquiry process under the Derby

:00:17.:00:19.

safeguarding children board in line with its procedures. I would

:00:20.:00:22.

encourage anyone who knows anything about this to come forward and give

:00:23.:00:28.

evidence to that board. The Syrian ceasefire is extremely fragile.

:00:29.:00:33.

There are reports that Russia is continuing to attack anti-Assad

:00:34.:00:39.

rebels, not Daesh, and that Islamic terrorists and weapons continue to

:00:40.:00:45.

pass into Syria across the Turkish border. What is the British

:00:46.:00:49.

Government doing to ensure the ceasefire is properly monitored and,

:00:50.:00:53.

in particular, to reduce serious tensions between Russia and our Nato

:00:54.:00:58.

ally Turkey? The honourable lady is absolutely right to raise this. The

:00:59.:01:03.

cessation of hostilities is an important step forward, imperfect

:01:04.:01:07.

though it is, and it does enable the possibility of political

:01:08.:01:10.

negotiations starting next week. She asks service and agree what we are

:01:11.:01:13.

proud to admit it is properly enforced stop we are working with

:01:14.:01:17.

the Americans and Russians to make that happen. I've got a European

:01:18.:01:22.

conference call with Vladimir Putin later this week to reinforce these

:01:23.:01:27.

points. Even though the ceasefire is imperfect, it is progress that we

:01:28.:01:31.

have it. Not every group is included in the ceasefire but basically there

:01:32.:01:36.

aren't the attacks that were taking place on the moderate opposition,

:01:37.:01:40.

which is welcome, and it is also enabled us with others to get aid

:01:41.:01:43.

into communities that desperately need it, including through airdrops

:01:44.:01:50.

and convoys. So I wouldn't put too much optimism into the mix right now

:01:51.:01:53.

but this is progress and we should work on it. Two weeks ago I visited

:01:54.:02:00.

a refugee Cap and the surrounding area on the Jordanian/Syrian border,

:02:01.:02:06.

primarily to assist health care services. I was struck by the

:02:07.:02:10.

remarkable resilience the local people have and this system is under

:02:11.:02:14.

quite significant pressure. Would the Prime Minister meet with me to

:02:15.:02:18.

discuss further what Britain can do to enhance health care services on

:02:19.:02:22.

the ground, both for the Syrian refugees and the wider Jordanian

:02:23.:02:26.

community? I'm very happy to meet with my honourable friend to discuss

:02:27.:02:29.

this. It is an extra ordinary sight, that refugee camp, because of the

:02:30.:02:33.

scale of the endeavour under way. Britain can be proud of what we've

:02:34.:02:36.

done in terms of the direct aid we've given and also the London

:02:37.:02:40.

conference that raised $11 billion for these refugee camps. I know he's

:02:41.:02:44.

got a long-standing interest on what we can do to make sure facilities

:02:45.:02:49.

are delivered quickly, including on occasions using military facilities,

:02:50.:02:52.

and I think there may be opportunities for that but we also

:02:53.:02:55.

need to make sure the emergency response from NGOs and the knighted

:02:56.:02:59.

nations is as fast as it can be when crises like this happen in the

:03:00.:03:03.

future. As the Prime Minister struggles with certain elements in

:03:04.:03:06.

his party over Europe, does he ever think that on an inspirational Prime

:03:07.:03:14.

Minister -- think back on an inspirational Prime Minister, Harold

:03:15.:03:17.

Wilson, who faced difficulties but stood up to the rebels in his own

:03:18.:03:21.

party and secured a yes vote for staying in Europe, and will he join

:03:22.:03:26.

with me because Harold Wilson's Centenary of his birth is next week

:03:27.:03:30.

and could be celebrated across all parties, a great innovative Prime

:03:31.:03:35.

Minister. I do feel a natural sympathy for anyone who has had this

:03:36.:03:39.

job. Irrespective of what side of the house we're on. I think he did

:03:40.:03:45.

do some important things and the honourable gentleman has some

:03:46.:03:50.

important things. I wish his family well on this important day and I

:03:51.:03:57.

think we approach things in different ways but one thing we

:03:58.:04:00.

would have agreed about is Britain's future is better off in a reformed

:04:01.:04:11.

EU. I'm sure the whole house will join me in expressing our

:04:12.:04:17.

condolences to Neil and Jennifer Burdett, the parents of two-year-old

:04:18.:04:20.

Fay, who died on Valentine's Day of meningitis B. Since they's death,

:04:21.:04:27.

815,000 people have signed a petition calling for the Government

:04:28.:04:30.

to vaccinate more children against meningitis B. I'm proud that the UK

:04:31.:04:35.

is the first country to have a vaccination programme for meningitis

:04:36.:04:38.

B but could my right honourable friend make sure the government

:04:39.:04:41.

looks at what more can be done to prevent more children like fei dying

:04:42.:04:47.

from this disease? On behalf of the whole house, let me extend my

:04:48.:04:52.

sympathies and condolences to Faye's parents and all those who have had

:04:53.:04:55.

children suffering from this terrible disease. By Robert friend

:04:56.:04:58.

is absolutely right, we were the first country in the world to have

:04:59.:05:01.

this vaccination programme, which is based on the advice of the joint

:05:02.:05:05.

committee on vaccination and immunisation who recommended

:05:06.:05:09.

targeting the vaccine to protect the infant at highest risk. The

:05:10.:05:12.

incidence of highest risk it does occur in babies at five months and

:05:13.:05:16.

of the 276 children contracting meningitis B last year, over 100

:05:17.:05:20.

were one year of age but she makes important points. We need to look at

:05:21.:05:24.

all the evidence carefully, as do the expert bodies that advise us,

:05:25.:05:28.

recognising that Britain is already taking some important steps forward

:05:29.:05:31.

by being the first country to vaccinate in this way.

:05:32.:05:42.

Leader of the Opposition Jeremy Corbyn went on education related

:05:43.:05:47.

issues, to begin with, childcare for infants, then moved on to what he

:05:48.:05:51.

said was a growing crisis in teachers and growing class sizes.

:05:52.:06:04.

Attacking Tory cuts has been a successful Labour strategy,

:06:05.:06:06.

according to one viewer, but the point is an additional childcare

:06:07.:06:11.

provision did not hit home, just gave David Cameron an opportunity to

:06:12.:06:17.

talk about an area of policy where Tories are weak. Same drivel from

:06:18.:06:22.

the Romans as usual, says one viewer, and our viewers so dumb that

:06:23.:06:29.

backbenchers need to be asking planted questions. James Patterson

:06:30.:06:33.

says, Jeremy Corbyn bleeding all over the floor, Prime Minister

:06:34.:06:40.

drowning him under a sea of figures. Jeremy Corbyn, new suit, proper

:06:41.:06:47.

tire, and up to the collar, now David Cameron's mother only needs to

:06:48.:06:52.

teach him how to do a Windsor knot! That was a Windsor knot... I thought

:06:53.:07:02.

you would say that. I do it automatically, I do not even know

:07:03.:07:09.

how to do it if you ask me, it is automatic! Isn't the problem, there

:07:10.:07:14.

is the other things on the news agenda, that Jeremy Corbyn's

:07:15.:07:19.

contribution to PMQs is largely likely to be ignored. It is a

:07:20.:07:24.

strategic choice that he has made, not to follow the Westminster

:07:25.:07:27.

agenda, to do his own thing, to settle on the issues he wants to

:07:28.:07:36.

settle on, it is right for the government to be challenged on these

:07:37.:07:39.

policies, what frustrates Labour MPs is two things, the execution of

:07:40.:07:43.

this, if we go on education, don't go on everything, don't go on class

:07:44.:07:49.

sizes... Choose one thing. Really nail in on this, jabber away, all

:07:50.:07:53.

six questions, when you get to the fifth or sixth, you get to expose

:07:54.:08:00.

prime ministers. They have run out of their brief. Labour MPs are also

:08:01.:08:03.

frustrated that they have nothing to say on the issue of the moment,

:08:04.:08:07.

Britain's place in the European Union. I know this will be a long

:08:08.:08:11.

campaign with many months to go but it is the only thing that

:08:12.:08:15.

Westminster and politicians and the newspapers are talking about. A lot

:08:16.:08:18.

of Labour MPs are frustrated that they are almost not having a voice

:08:19.:08:23.

in this debate, that begins to worry them. That is true, perhaps

:08:24.:08:28.

inevitably, because the big divisions are inside the

:08:29.:08:32.

Conservative Party, but the debate, the argument, seems to be taking

:08:33.:08:36.

place almost with Labour having a walk on part. I wonder if that is

:08:37.:08:41.

also not because a lot of people, including on your own side, feel

:08:42.:08:44.

that his heart is not quite in it, when it was the big in day last

:08:45.:08:50.

Saturday, he spoke with a CND rally. I will tell you why he has gone on

:08:51.:08:55.

education. Could you address my question first. And then we will

:08:56.:08:59.

come back. But it is linked, the genesis of your question, why isn't

:09:00.:09:02.

he talking about Europe at the dispatch box, why is he not pressing

:09:03.:09:07.

on the divisions of the Conservative Party, but he is enthusiastically

:09:08.:09:11.

supporting staying in the Hugh the party is supporting that. Where we

:09:12.:09:17.

have seen that enthusiasm...? Backing the campaign, the Shadow

:09:18.:09:22.

Cabinet is fully supportive. He went to a CND rally last Saturday, that

:09:23.:09:28.

was meant to be Labour's day of in and it was full remain... Going to

:09:29.:09:34.

the CND rally, all of the headlines were about Jeremy Corbyn going

:09:35.:09:39.

there. Bottom line, we are trying to create a division in the Labour

:09:40.:09:43.

Party which does not exist. Every single Labour MP is enthusiastically

:09:44.:09:48.

supporting the campaign to stay in the European Union, you have seen a

:09:49.:09:51.

premises question, the divisions are on the Conservatives. We are very

:09:52.:09:55.

united in the message the Labour Party is putting out, the reason

:09:56.:09:59.

Jeremy Corbyn did not go on the European Union today on the dispatch

:10:00.:10:03.

box, most parents are founding out this week which secondary school

:10:04.:10:06.

their children will be going too, very current in terms of ordinary

:10:07.:10:09.

parents up and down the country, they will watch that and think, I

:10:10.:10:13.

have just had a letter which means I cannot get into the secondary

:10:14.:10:16.

school, even I live in the catchment area. Given that he chose to go on

:10:17.:10:27.

that area, why did he not include, from the Institute for Fiscal

:10:28.:10:31.

Studies, these quite serious figures about the growth of child poverty.

:10:32.:10:36.

About the end of the decade. Surely, for a Labour leader, it is an easy

:10:37.:10:41.

link, as well, to link education and child poverty, did not even mention

:10:42.:10:47.

that. New has mention the national audit in terms of education. I am

:10:48.:10:56.

not in the room when he is discussing what to do. Why not?

:10:57.:11:00.

Would you like to be? LAUGHTER You write some very good jokes for

:11:01.:11:06.

the Prime Minister. That Acropolis one was terrible. The Leader of the

:11:07.:11:12.

Opposition can go on a plethora of subjects, going through the analysis

:11:13.:11:15.

of what is best, one of the things he's trying to do is go on real

:11:16.:11:19.

issues, rather than fuelling this Westminster bubble of continually

:11:20.:11:22.

banging on about Europe. What is the point of being Labour leader if you

:11:23.:11:26.

do not highlight a potentially devastating report on child poverty?

:11:27.:11:31.

It is important that he does. But also... It is also important to the

:11:32.:11:36.

party leader to be on the side of parents who are really concerned

:11:37.:11:39.

about the shortages of school places, who are receiving those

:11:40.:11:43.

letters this week. He is raising that issue directly with the prime

:11:44.:11:46.

and it, why are you not sorting this? Coming back to Europe, are you

:11:47.:11:53.

worried? You need Scottish national votes and Labour votes to win -- he

:11:54.:11:58.

is raising that issue directly with the Prime Minister. Are you worried

:11:59.:12:05.

about Jeremy Corbyn's enthusiasm for Europe? The Labour Party is pretty

:12:06.:12:14.

much united in favour of in. There is a huge amount of Labour support

:12:15.:12:23.

for that position. Are you worried about the apparent lack of

:12:24.:12:27.

enthusiasm from Jeremy Corbyn? Not really. The thing that lay beneath

:12:28.:12:31.

the more to get the Labour vote out. Jeremy Corbyn is not the most

:12:32.:12:35.

appealing political figure for the general public. We need the voices

:12:36.:12:45.

that the public trust. Would you share a stage with him? I'm not

:12:46.:12:49.

planning on, I think that he has said that he will not share a

:12:50.:12:53.

platform with any of us, but it is about allowing people to decide. I

:12:54.:13:00.

don't think Jeremy Corbyn... Doesn't matter what he says? It is ordinary

:13:01.:13:05.

voices that will win or lose this, not all editions. It could be won or

:13:06.:13:11.

lost on turnout. If you want to stay in Europe, you need to get the vote

:13:12.:13:16.

out. It is not about Jeremy Corbyn, it is about the argument, the case,

:13:17.:13:20.

the economy will be stronger. One question that was very accurate, the

:13:21.:13:24.

Prime Minister should have been brave enough to say to the Tories,

:13:25.:13:28.

we have a deal, we are voting in, the fact he has not done that makes

:13:29.:13:32.

a huge split, makes it more difficult to win it. Indeed. Final

:13:33.:13:38.

thought? Many people in the Labour Party are worried by the

:13:39.:13:42.

leadership's slight hint of equivocation when it comes to the

:13:43.:13:46.

issue, they suspect that is one of the reason Jeremy Corbyn does not

:13:47.:13:49.

like doing that, getting into positions. I offer Peter Mandelson

:13:50.:13:53.

the opportunity to be critical of Jeremy Corbyn yesterday, was very

:13:54.:13:57.

cautious about it, he said he is the right man, there is a definite sense

:13:58.:14:00.

from the pro-Remain campaign the Labour side that they do not want to

:14:01.:14:04.

get into a fight with the leadership over this. During the referendum.

:14:05.:14:10.

They want to keep the ceasefire on Europe intact. We will have to see

:14:11.:14:13.

what we can do about that(!) Sticking with the issue

:14:14.:14:29.

of the EU referendum, the former Conservative chancellor

:14:30.:14:32.

Norman Lamont has come Earlier this year he took part

:14:33.:14:34.

in a roleplaying exercise as the British minister in charge

:14:35.:14:39.

of negotiations if Britain voted was greater control over our

:14:40.:14:42.

borders. We would seek to introduce

:14:43.:14:48.

legislation to that effect. We would be willing to explore

:14:49.:14:50.

a number of options on that front. If we had our own system,

:14:51.:14:53.

perhaps a points system, we could seek to give a bias

:14:54.:14:56.

towards EU nationals what took you so long to officially

:14:57.:15:23.

come out and say, when clearly you were on that side? I was war-gaming

:15:24.:15:28.

on the assumption that was given to me by the organisers of the session,

:15:29.:15:32.

I have never ever in the past said that we should come out, as long ago

:15:33.:15:40.

as 1994I made a speech saying the time may come when we have to choose

:15:41.:15:43.

between a much more politically integrated Europe and leaving. The

:15:44.:15:49.

way that Europe has gone since then, I think as adequately fulfilled the

:15:50.:15:54.

warnings I gave then, I think Europe is at a fork and we must choose. It

:15:55.:15:59.

is still taking quite a long time. We have at the renegotiated package

:16:00.:16:02.

from the Prime Minister. What was the turmoil in your mind? It is a

:16:03.:16:09.

big decision, altering the policy of this country over 40 years, it means

:16:10.:16:13.

having a disagreement with colleagues within one's own party. I

:16:14.:16:18.

did not want to rush into it, but I thought and thought and came to the

:16:19.:16:22.

view, you say it is not surprising that I can do it but I did. Do you

:16:23.:16:26.

feel like in some ways you are betraying your colleagues, like the

:16:27.:16:31.

primers to? No, this is a big decision, splitting friends and

:16:32.:16:35.

families, so important, one must recognise the right of people to

:16:36.:16:39.

disagree with you. And after all, that is the purpose of a referendum.

:16:40.:16:43.

As you say, it is dividing families, dividing friends, dividing the

:16:44.:16:49.

Conservative Party once again. How difficult is it going to be

:16:50.:16:52.

post-referendum in terms of the unity of the party? I think there is

:16:53.:17:00.

a great awareness of this danger in the Conservative Party and people

:17:01.:17:04.

are very determined that after it is over people should get together and

:17:05.:17:09.

heal the divisions. It is very important that the referendum

:17:10.:17:13.

discussion should be conducted with civility and respect for other

:17:14.:17:16.

people's point of view. You think Iain Duncan Smith was practising

:17:17.:17:19.

that when he described the dossier as dodgy, the government 's dossier.

:17:20.:17:27.

It sets out alternatives, one is entitled to argue about the premise.

:17:28.:17:33.

One is entitled to dispute it. I would seriously disputed as well. Is

:17:34.:17:38.

it dodgy? I think that it is arguable. If you want to keep the

:17:39.:17:46.

civility between the sides, should Iain Duncan Smith the indulging in

:17:47.:17:51.

that kind of language? People will get over it, it is not a great

:17:52.:17:57.

thing. It has been said that there are big risks attached to leaving.

:17:58.:18:08.

Switzerland, Norway, Canada taking seven years, limited access to the

:18:09.:18:13.

single market, going through the World Trade Organisation, resulting

:18:14.:18:15.

in extra tariffs on certain products like food, they are right. I don't

:18:16.:18:22.

think so. The German finance minister has said that were Britain

:18:23.:18:28.

to leave, it would be necessary, necessary, to have a free-trade

:18:29.:18:30.

agreement with Britain. This isn't something Britain has to

:18:31.:18:40.

demand, it's just as important to the other side. Britain is the

:18:41.:18:43.

largest customer the German cars and German manufacturers. They would be

:18:44.:18:46.

desperate to know the terms on which they would be able to sell into the

:18:47.:18:51.

UK and so an agreement is absolutely on both sides' interest. The country

:18:52.:18:56.

you didn't mention was the United States. The United States actually

:18:57.:19:01.

sells into Europe since 2011 more than we do. We compare with Norway,

:19:02.:19:07.

we compare with Switzerland but the United States actually sells more

:19:08.:19:12.

than we do. Nobody is saying, or they shouldn't be saying, that there

:19:13.:19:16.

wouldn't be some sort of deal. The question mark is, how much turmoil

:19:17.:19:20.

there could be while the deal is being made. It's not just the

:19:21.:19:24.

government. You've even got a US fund manager saying that Brexit

:19:25.:19:27.

offers a lot of risk with little obvious reward top equity, sterling

:19:28.:19:31.

and the London property market would all be likely to suffer and we've

:19:32.:19:35.

seen some proof of that recently with sterling. Sterling has been

:19:36.:19:41.

lower than this during the life of this government and nobody commented

:19:42.:19:46.

whatsoever. You trotted out Black Rock. I could run you through a list

:19:47.:19:49.

of companies and fund managers this very morning... Legal and general

:19:50.:19:55.

said it would have no effect on their business. Take Neil Woodford,

:19:56.:20:02.

who is one of the staff and managers of this country, who said it is very

:20:03.:20:05.

difficult to argue it would have any great effect. Take Eleanor Morris E,

:20:06.:20:11.

who runs Newton asset management. There are lots of people who say

:20:12.:20:14.

economically it will make no difference and that is what I

:20:15.:20:19.

believe. But which model would you choose? There's a letter now from

:20:20.:20:23.

Nick Herbert that has just been published, the chairman of the

:20:24.:20:27.

Conservatives. It has been said to Ian Duncan Smith specifically but it

:20:28.:20:31.

says, you have said that if Britain were to be leave the EU we wouldn't

:20:32.:20:35.

copy any other country's deal and have a settlement on our own terms.

:20:36.:20:39.

Do you agree with Iain Duncan Smith that it would be different to what

:20:40.:20:42.

has ever been settled with other countries? Yes, I think it ought to

:20:43.:20:46.

be a special deal for top obviously, one can't say in every detail what

:20:47.:20:50.

it would be like because it is... Even in broad detail. Let me finish.

:20:51.:20:54.

Because it is subject to negotiation. But Jack Delors has

:20:55.:21:02.

gone out of his way to say he recognises that Britain historically

:21:03.:21:07.

is interested in the economic son should have a special arrangement.

:21:08.:21:10.

He said that would not be difficult to arrange. Of course in this period

:21:11.:21:15.

when people are trying to persuade Britain to vote to stay on, people

:21:16.:21:19.

are going to say it is going to be difficult. In reality, it won't be.

:21:20.:21:24.

Is it a fair playing field, a fair fight on both sides? Advocate is

:21:25.:21:29.

reasonably fair. I think the funding arrangements, but that goes back to

:21:30.:21:32.

the Blair government, are very odd and not entirely fair. The civil

:21:33.:21:37.

service papers? Do you feel very strongly that they should be given

:21:38.:21:40.

to ministers on both sides of the argument? I'm not a member of the

:21:41.:21:44.

government. This issue doesn't really concern me. What I understood

:21:45.:21:50.

Jeremy Hayward to say was that civil servants could not provide political

:21:51.:21:58.

lines for those who were in favour of Brexit to pursue and that seems

:21:59.:22:02.

to be entirely reasonable. But some of the exit terms that were outlined

:22:03.:22:06.

to don't seem to be that different to what our relationship would be

:22:07.:22:10.

like if we were to remain. You have implied that we would accept the

:22:11.:22:14.

existing body of EU law and regulation analysis of the fine

:22:15.:22:17.

matters and ensure a deal could be completed in the next decade.

:22:18.:22:22.

Preferential access for EU citizens under whatever deal is reached. And

:22:23.:22:27.

that Britain should chip in to the EU budget other gesture of goodwill.

:22:28.:22:31.

What's different? Economically, I think things would be very similar

:22:32.:22:38.

but the issue is, you can say why, then, exit? We would be free of this

:22:39.:22:44.

juggernaut of integration. Whatever barriers Britain direct the European

:22:45.:22:49.

Court of Justice, the European Parliament find ways around. They

:22:50.:22:53.

are masters at bending the rules. Take the bailout of Ireland which

:22:54.:22:57.

was plainly illegal, plainly illegal. Christine Lagarde admitted

:22:58.:23:00.

such but they just did it nonetheless. Thank you.

:23:01.:23:06.

Should Apple help the FBI to unlocking iPhone used by one of the

:23:07.:23:12.

gunmen responsible for the San Bernardino shootings? The FBI thinks

:23:13.:23:16.

so and argued in a congressional hearing yesterday that Apple's

:23:17.:23:20.

encryption was a vicious guard dog that hurts national security. A

:23:21.:23:23.

short jump back across the pond, the UK Government food web published a

:23:24.:23:27.

revised version of its much criticised investigatory Powers

:23:28.:23:27.

bill. In our Soapbox this week,

:23:28.:23:37.

Hugo Rifkind asks whether politicians are right to be circling

:23:38.:23:39.

on Apple and other tech companies, before reflecting on whether all

:23:40.:23:42.

of the fights they've picked surrounding internet security

:23:43.:23:44.

and freedom are the right ones. The San Bernardino shooting

:23:45.:23:47.

in December last year left 14 dead. Who wouldn't want to

:23:48.:23:49.

help the police get to the bottom of it,

:23:50.:23:51.

whatever it takes? Well, Apple wouldn't,

:23:52.:23:53.

or so the accusation goes, and seemingly all because of one

:23:54.:23:55.

of these - a phone with a pass lock and some pretty

:23:56.:23:59.

sophisticated encryption. The company has been

:24:00.:24:03.

accused of placing commercial interests

:24:04.:24:04.

over national security. What "commercial interests" means

:24:05.:24:07.

for Apple is people still wanting So, is it any surprise

:24:08.:24:11.

that Apple wants to We're often told that people

:24:12.:24:17.

who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear but who doesn't

:24:18.:24:22.

have something to hide? Music lovers who illegally

:24:23.:24:25.

download a few songs, box set lovers who Torrent,

:24:26.:24:29.

and then there's internet porn But if you did, would you really

:24:30.:24:32.

want a record kept? Think of that information

:24:33.:24:40.

being hacked or flung Freedom flows on the internet like a

:24:41.:24:42.

river. Nothing spurs innovation

:24:43.:24:48.

like being told you can't do something but these

:24:49.:24:50.

innovations weren't devised Often they were popularised

:24:51.:24:53.

to shield more minor crimes, such as buying drugs,

:24:54.:24:57.

or for simple privacy. But the lesson here is

:24:58.:25:03.

that the dogged online onanist is not a man you'd want

:25:04.:25:05.

in your enemy's corner, The battles we were always bound

:25:06.:25:08.

to lose against digital piracy, pornography and soft drugs have

:25:09.:25:14.

bequeathed us a world in which the battles that really

:25:15.:25:17.

matter, against terrorism and organised crime, are much,

:25:18.:25:20.

much harder to fight. Hugo Rifkind is with us now, having

:25:21.:25:38.

played his chance at being Doctor Who. Should Apple help or turn its

:25:39.:25:42.

back on the law in this case? It's not quite that simple. It's easy to

:25:43.:25:46.

say Apple should help in one case if they possibly can. A pretty

:25:47.:25:51.

important case. It's cleverly possible the FBI can get into this

:25:52.:25:54.

phone by themselves if they wanted to and this is a test case to

:25:55.:25:58.

establish a precedent. The point is that if you place an onus on tech

:25:59.:26:01.

companies to break encryption like this, what they're going to do, what

:26:02.:26:05.

Apple is doing, is try to develop products where they can't break the

:26:06.:26:08.

cushion because that removes the responsible as you from them --

:26:09.:26:14.

removes the responsibility from them. In the battle against terror,

:26:15.:26:24.

people will say this is a special case. This is not the same as

:26:25.:26:28.

perhaps other crimes that could be seen as less challenging to national

:26:29.:26:32.

security and that surely Loren for is that agencies have to be able to

:26:33.:26:36.

do their job to gather evidence? -- law enforcement agencies. You could

:26:37.:26:41.

argue that. Firstly if you damaging corruption like this, it isn't just

:26:42.:26:45.

security services that benefit, criminals benefit. If security and

:26:46.:26:48.

terrorism special case then we need to be very careful with things like

:26:49.:26:52.

our own investigatory Powers bill which vastly boosts the powers that

:26:53.:26:55.

the police have. Other law-enforcement agencies have

:26:56.:27:01.

private data. This essentially gives terrorists allies. Matthew Hancock,

:27:02.:27:09.

should Apple be cooperating? Well, in the UK, we're proposing, as Hugo

:27:10.:27:13.

said, a new set of laws with a balance. Of course you've got to the

:27:14.:27:17.

tech National Security Council pits the first duty of the state. But the

:27:18.:27:23.

way we're proposing to get through this in the UK context is to make

:27:24.:27:27.

sure that there are safeguards so that the warrant requires a judge to

:27:28.:27:34.

sign off in order to show... Both to make sure in the specifics that it

:27:35.:27:38.

is in the national interest but also to demonstrate... David Davis says

:27:39.:27:42.

the judge will just be signing of what the Home Secretary said. That's

:27:43.:27:47.

how judges act. -- not how judges at. How would companies like Apple

:27:48.:27:53.

be forced to remove the encryption on their messaging software? The

:27:54.:27:59.

proposal in the bill is that with the check by the judiciary and

:28:00.:28:05.

therefore this being independent and decided on, whether it is in the

:28:06.:28:09.

national interest, you have that check there and that would be

:28:10.:28:12.

required by law. Hugo Rifkind, thank you.

:28:13.:28:15.

There's just time to put you out of your misery and give

:28:16.:28:18.

Hit the big red button. Let's see what happens.

:28:19.:28:38.

You fulfil your role very expertly. -- fulfilled.

:28:39.:28:40.

The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.

:28:41.:28:44.

Jo and I will be here at noon tomorrow with all the big political

:28:45.:28:48.

No doubt the European referendum will be rumbling on and the official

:28:49.:28:53.

campaign hasn't even started yet! And we've got another four months or

:28:54.:28:57.

so of it. Can't get enough.

:28:58.:28:59.

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