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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:36. | :00:38. | |
The Belgian capital Brussels is under lockdown following a series | :00:39. | :00:41. | |
of explosions at the airport and on the city's metro system. | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
At least 28 are believed to have been killed, | :00:47. | :00:48. | |
The blasts began early this morning, and come just days after the main | :00:49. | :00:56. | |
fugitive from the Paris terror attacks was seized in Belgium. | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
The Belgian prime minister has called it a black day | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
In London, ministers are holding an emergency meeting while security | :01:05. | :01:13. | |
has been stepped up at British airports. | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
David Cameron says the UK government will do everything it can to help. | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
We'll bring you all the latest developments throughout the show. | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
George Osborne is to come to the Commons to defend his Budget. | :01:27. | :01:29. | |
He'll confirm he's dropped planned cuts to disability benefits, | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
but how will he fill the ?4.4 billion gap and just how | :01:34. | :01:36. | |
damaged is the Chancellor and the government? | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
And before the election the parties promised ?8 billion | :01:43. | :01:44. | |
But were health bosses persuaded to lower their demands by Number 10? | :01:45. | :01:57. | |
And joining us for the programme today it's the former | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
Liberal Democrat MP and former coalition minister David Laws. | :02:01. | :02:07. | |
Welcome to the programme. Good to be with you. | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
So, the Belgian capital of Brussels has been hit by a series | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
of coordinated terror attacks this morning. | :02:16. | :02:17. | |
At least one of them reported to be the result of a suicide bomber, | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
and the border with France has been closed. | :02:22. | :02:23. | |
In a press conference the Belgian Prime Minister has said, | :02:24. | :02:25. | |
Brussels airport and the city's metro system have been targetted. | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
Reports of the number of people killed are varying and rising. | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
But Belgian officials say at least 28 are dead. | :02:37. | :02:38. | |
The government there has raised its terror alert | :02:39. | :02:40. | |
The explosions come four days after Salah Abdeslam, | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
a key suspect in the Paris attacks, was captured in the city. | :02:46. | :02:52. | |
Eurostar has cancelled all services between London and Brussels. | :02:53. | :02:54. | |
Flights between the UK and Brussels are disrupted. | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
In London, the Prime Minister is to chair an emergency COBRA | :03:00. | :03:02. | |
meeting later today to determine Britain's response. | :03:03. | :03:05. | |
So what do we know about the Brussels attacks so far? | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
Well, as we've been saying, several explosions have struck | :03:10. | :03:11. | |
Brussels airport and the metro system. | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
Two blasts tore through the departures area of Zaventem | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
airport shortly after 7 o'clock this morning UK time. | :03:19. | :03:29. | |
A media report said that left at least 13 dead. | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
An hour later, an explosion hit Maelbeek metro station, | :03:36. | :03:37. | |
Transport officials said 15 died at the station. | :03:38. | :03:47. | |
The airport and whole transport system have been closed. | :03:48. | :03:49. | |
Well we can speak now to our correspondent Gavin Lee. | :03:50. | :03:51. | |
Gavin, can you just tell us what the scenes where like earlier on today? | :03:52. | :04:01. | |
Yes, this was just before 8am in the morning. The first reports they were | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
two explosions inside the atrium, the check-in area of Brussels | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
airport. We've to eyewitnesses. I'm about 400 metres from the airport, | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
this is a very familiar area for anyone arriving. It's just the | :04:17. | :04:24. | |
immediate departures area, all of it sealed off now. I have spoken to | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
eyewitnesses who have been making their way through this business | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
area, the business quarter of the airport, going to a sports hall now | :04:33. | :04:35. | |
for information. What they are saying is they were two bombs within | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
about seconds of each other, possibly 30 seconds, and it was by | :04:40. | :04:47. | |
the check-in desk number six, a huge check-in terminal, immediately | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
people started to run. A group of schoolchildren from Belgium were | :04:52. | :04:53. | |
travelling to Prague and said they were trying to clamber out but | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
people were running on top of each other. I spoke to the man who is | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
basically the baggage rapper who said he was personally involved and | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
heard shouting in Arabic. He went to the scene to pull out seven people, | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
a number of them died in his arms. He described it, in tears, how he | :05:13. | :05:19. | |
was trying to help in vain and all around at the moment, we are seeing | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
police trying to escort people. Flights landed in Brussels at this | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
time, people were in panic, being told to get out quickly, and the | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
airport is completely closed. Every few minutes we hear the ambulances | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
and Fire Services continuing to go in. No confirmation in terms of how | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
many have died. The Prime Minister here Charles Michel said it is | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
scores, violent attack and will have more details as soon as possible. | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
Remember, this is four days after the arrest of Salah Abdeslam, three | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
kilometres from here in Molenbeek and right now, people are continuing | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
to leave the airport as quickly as possible. Gavin, thank you very | :06:04. | :06:04. | |
much. Brussels has been on a state of high | :06:05. | :06:06. | |
alert since the terror It emerged that many of those | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
involved in the Paris attacks had Back in November, terrorists killed | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
130 people and injured many more in a series of gun and suicide | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
attacks at various sites in Paris. Most of the terrorists died | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
in the attacks but two of them, Salah Abdeslam and Mohamed Abrini, | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
evaded the authorities and went Salah Abdeslam was finally captured | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
on Friday in an anti-terror raid And on Sunday, Belgium's Foreign | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
Minister, Didier Reynders, said that Abdeslam was preparing | :06:33. | :06:40. | |
further attacks before he was arrested, declaring | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
that he was "ready to restart Joining me now is the Foreign | :06:44. | :06:45. | |
Affairs Analyst Tim Marshall. And Chris Lipscomb ahead of the | :06:46. | :06:58. | |
National counterterrorism security service. Welcome to you. Is it your | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
belief than that, although Salah Abdeslam was captured, that the cell | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
was done operating? He warned of further attacks and in the end, it | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
showed the capability were still there. Very much so but not only | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
that, the Foreign Minister and lawyer said he is cooperating. What | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
does that tell people in hiding? He's telling more about us. The | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
moment the Foreign Minister said we've uncovered a new cell, they | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
knew they had to move. Now, if you are doing that deliberately to | :07:32. | :07:34. | |
stampede them because you're watching them and you can take them | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
when they move, that's one thing, but if you've just accelerated their | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
operation, that's another thing. The second point, the Belgian | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
intelligence service, very brave people doing a hard job, but they | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
are not the a team, and the last bit is that they are also so removed | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
from the communities in which they need to be working within and they | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
are not there. It does seem incredible that even Salah Abdeslam | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
was captured four months after a massive manhunt and he was up the | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
road. Two miles up the road with a beard. He was | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
road. Two miles up the road with a because the local guys in the | :08:15. | :08:16. | |
takeaway knew him, and two miles away from Molenbeek and for two | :08:17. | :08:24. | |
Manse, he lived like that. They haven't got the connections in the | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
communities they need to have. -- two months. They are blind and deaf | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
and behind, so how do you capture someone if you are blind and deaf? | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
They are extraordinarily behind. The prime ministers said, he feared what | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
was going to happen is was always going to happen because they had no | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
idea what was going on it in an area which is a hotbed for jihadists. But | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
it is also a sign the bombers are showing they can still terrorise at | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
city like Brussels, which is now in lockdown. You can't get in or out by | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
train or plane, move around inside it, and what the bombers have done | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
is hit targets very deliberately. If it's true it was the American | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
Airways check-in, next to the Starbucks in the airport, you fit | :09:18. | :09:19. | |
the symbols of the USA, which they are after. Those are the reports, | :09:20. | :09:27. | |
aren't they? The Metro station hit was not random. That is because it | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
is right next door to the EU headquarters and so it is a blow | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
against European unity. This symbolic stuff matters. Tonight the | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
Eiffel Tower will be had in the colours of the Belgian flag as a | :09:40. | :09:42. | |
sign of unity because these bombs are designed to break unity. | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
Francois Hollande has that it's an attack on Europe, not just on | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
Belgium but the hallmarks of an attack like this targeting the | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
transport system, but obviously we have seen and is a reminder of July | :09:55. | :10:01. | |
the 7th and the Madrid bombings but different to Paris? I would defer to | :10:02. | :10:03. | |
someone who knows more about that sort of thing, but they know their | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
tradecraft and there is a report which came out a couple of days ago | :10:10. | :10:16. | |
from the USA which mention the Paris attacks, these people are properly | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
trained. For example, you buy a phone in the morning, as in concept | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
make one focal, throw it away. That takes knowledge and training. -- one | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
phone call. Just before I come to you about the style of the attacks | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
and the security services, they are not quite up to the job facing them | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
at the moment, we can also report there is one British person injured, | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
but no fatalities. First of all come on the transport network, and that | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
causes maximum mayhem. Yes, it does and weeks in the transport networks | :10:52. | :10:54. | |
across the world being attacked time and time again and the aviation | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
sector is consistently being targeted. What we have here is | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
something we have seen before in Moscow. The Moscow airport was | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
actually blown up by someone being able to walk into that terminal with | :11:08. | :11:14. | |
a suitcase bomb, so this is not new. I'm a bit disappointed actually that | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
we have not really learned some of the lessons, we know from fact if | :11:18. | :11:24. | |
you want to secure a building as an example, you put the security on the | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
outside of the building, not in the middle of it, because it's too late | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
by the time it got to that point. One thing which struck me is the | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
explosions were in the departure lounge, which indicates a complete | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
breach of security within the building, not just on the outer | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
building. It's not really a breach of the allow people to walk into | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
airports with suitcases, that's what we do. Some airports around the | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
world like Istanbul and India, where the threat is different, will do a | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
security search regime on the external parts, so you can only go | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
into the terminal if you have your ticket and your bags are searched. | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
Maybe we have got to move towards that in the West. Do you think we | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
should? What that does do, I think we saw it after the liquid bombs in | :12:14. | :12:23. | |
Heathrow, if you are in single file and backed up around, there still | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
may be an attack full to be dumped have that density of casualty you | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
have inside the airport terminal this is referring to. That's one | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
thing to be looked at by people all over the world including this | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
country full is are we going to change the way you check in? David | :12:39. | :12:45. | |
laws, your thoughts on what's been going on today? Horrendous, a | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
reminder of how well we've done so far in this country and how well the | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
security services are done in ensuring these types of incidents | :12:52. | :12:57. | |
have happened so far but we can't be complacent about that. The number of | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
targets to protect against in an environment where people are per to | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
take their own lives makes this job very, very difficult. We can't be | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
sure, even with better levels of skill and wisdom we have in this | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
country that we won't, at some stage, have this type of offence | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
committed in the UK. We will talk later on about the balance between | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
security and dignity, but Boris Johnson has already said that a | :13:25. | :13:27. | |
police presence is going to be increased unsurprisingly in London. | :13:28. | :13:34. | |
Would you like other specific things to be done immediately to try and | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
keep people safe at British airports and train stations? The people who | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
are the real experts, MI5, the police, will give that judgment of | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
the Government and the Government will act sensibly. We know that this | :13:47. | :13:53. | |
risk was there one year ago, a month ago, and will be there in a year's | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
time so we should not overreact to individual incidents. We know this | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
is a permanent risk we will have to live with for many years and we | :14:02. | :14:04. | |
ought to be thinking forward even when things like this are taking | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
place. Let's talk about the security services. They are not the a team. | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
Do you agree with that? The ones in Brussels? Yes, I've been to Brussels | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
and spoken to police officers over there and they felt quite hindered I | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
Government and actually what they were... It's very complicated, lots | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
of police forces, they have got very different communities and some of | :14:29. | :14:34. | |
them have 75% Muslim origin, so it's difficult for them to penetrate and | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
get the intelligence they need. Clearly, if Salah Abdeslam was able | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
to stay on the run for four Munns, that's incredible. They will be very | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
disappointed if things like that happened in the UK. You agree they | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
are not doing enough, the security services, and leaving their country | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
exposed? There's obviously a problem there. They obviously need to learn | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
a few lessons. We are good at terrorism in the UK because we have | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
so much experience. Experience is something can't just get overnight. | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
They will have learned lessons from this. There was an issue with people | :15:10. | :15:12. | |
being able to move around the continent are very easily. That is | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
clearly a problem and something the whole of Europe based on a cat. I | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
think we can actually hear Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London giving | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
his response certainly while the security meeting has been going on. | :15:25. | :15:25. | |
Let's listen to Boris Johnson. Kallis it looks as though they may | :15:26. | :15:36. | |
be one UK casualty, details on that are very sketchy at the moment. The | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
most important thing to get across is we have no reason to think there | :15:43. | :15:48. | |
is any reader across from what has happened in Brussels to the UK, no | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
intelligence that there is an immediate threat but as a precaution | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
and for the purposes of reassurance, there has been a stepping up of the | :15:58. | :16:00. | |
presence of police at major airports. The casualties is an | :16:01. | :16:08. | |
injured person, not a fatality, that's the latest report we have | :16:09. | :16:14. | |
been hearing. Would people will ask is, where do we go from here? -- | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
what people will ask. All of the capital cities in Europe must be | :16:20. | :16:27. | |
even more worried than before. He has not raised the alert but the | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
profile of being aware stop he knows that after couple of days, that will | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
diminish. I do think that is for public consumption. He went to great | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
pains to say there is no intelligence to suggest... It's a | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
reaction to what has happened in Brussels. So the UK is not under any | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
more threat than it was yesterday all will be tomorrow, that's just | :16:52. | :16:54. | |
for a couple of days, people feel better, you will see some extra | :16:55. | :16:57. | |
police, and this is happening all across Europe. Where it will play in | :16:58. | :17:06. | |
is debate about communications, the intelligence bill, and how much | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
phone traffic you can monitor because that was key to the Paris | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
attacks, the phone traffic. That will play into the debate and also | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
the political debate about security in this country. And also the new | :17:20. | :17:26. | |
referendum debate, although I don't want to go there. Thank you very | :17:27. | :17:28. | |
much. George Osborne will face MPs | :17:29. | :17:30. | |
in the Commons today to defend his Budget | :17:31. | :17:32. | |
and his handling of the economy. It's the first time a Chancellor has | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
closed a Budget debate since Ken Clarke was in office - | :17:36. | :17:37. | |
a sign perhaps of the pressure It comes after the resignation | :17:38. | :17:40. | |
of Iain Duncan Smith as Work and Pensions Secretary, | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
who criticised the planned cuts to disability benefit | :17:47. | :17:48. | |
as "deeply unfair". As well as that, Mr Osborne has had | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
to back down in the face of other potential rebellions. | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
So is his Budget unravelling? Reforms to the Personal | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
Independence Payment, or PIP, had been due to save a total | :18:01. | :18:03. | |
of ?4.4 billion from the welfare budget by 2020 as part | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
of Mr Osborne's commitment to reducing benefits spending | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
by ?12 billion a year. Yesterday, the new Work | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
and Pensions Secretary Stephen Crabb said the cut had been scrapped, | :18:20. | :18:21. | |
adding that, "Behind every statistic there is a human being, | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
and perhaps sometimes in government Ministers have also confirmed | :18:27. | :18:29. | |
they will not oppose calls to scrap the so-called "tampon tax" | :18:30. | :18:37. | |
when the issue comes to a vote. VAT is currently charged at 5% | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
on sanitary products. A Labour amendment calls | :18:41. | :18:42. | |
for a zero rate of VAT. Mr Osborne will confirm that the EU | :18:43. | :18:51. | |
has agreed to concede on this. And finally, the Government has | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
backed down on the so-called solar tax in the face of Tory rebels | :18:57. | :18:58. | |
and Labour MPs who are trying to block a rise in VAT on solar | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
panels and home insulation. The current rate is 5%, | :19:04. | :19:10. | |
but the European Court of Justice Tory rebels want to give two fingers | :19:11. | :19:12. | |
to the ECJ but it could mean a legal headache for the Chancellor | :19:13. | :19:21. | |
in the run-up to the EU referendum. Well, we're joined now by the former | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
Social Security Secretary And, of course, David Laws | :19:26. | :19:27. | |
is a former Liberal Democrat Chief Was it a clock up, the changes to | :19:28. | :19:53. | |
PIP? Doesn't handle well. I had a rule at the DSS, any difficult | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
decision to take should never be a surprise, it should be trailed well | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
in advance, discussed well in advance. It meant that if you | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
disgusted well in advance, you heard some of the criticism beforehand and | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
you could modify what you are going to do, and secondly, when you did it | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
people were prepared for it. The British people are actually quite | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
rational for it, if you prepare the case, they will accept it. If you | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
bounce it on them, they won't. So you saying these were the right | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
changes? I'm sure there is a problem and we address that problem, but | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
even now, I don't know what the changes were they were proposing to | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
address. But they have now been dropped. If it was a mistake of | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
presentation, you agreed with the substance, then you are to some | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
extent at odds with the new Secretary of State in there said | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
very clearly, these are not going to happen, they will be no more attempt | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
to take money from the welfare budget. Exactly. Is that right or | :20:54. | :21:02. | |
wrong? It is a correct description of what he has said! I think it is | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
on the wise for us to ring fence every budget in government, and | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
especially the biggest -- I think it is unwise. I don't what many taken | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
away from disabled people who need it, but I want us to ensure we have | :21:17. | :21:23. | |
benefits that go to those most in need -- I don't want to take money | :21:24. | :21:30. | |
away. But listening to the debate yesterday and following Iain Duncan | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
Smith's resignation and the sentiment he expressed, that your | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
party was no longer being fair, that the cuts were falling on those | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
people who could least afford it, while tax cuts were being given to | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
be better off. Is that fair? That was a risk the Chancellor chose to | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
run. I was asked beforehand whether I would cut top rate of income tax | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
and I said that you need a very strong case for doing so, and it | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
would be important to do so only you could justify it in the of | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
everything else. And he failed to do that? Manifested. That is career as | :22:09. | :22:17. | |
Chancellor, had been damaged so much that he struggle to continue? I'm | :22:18. | :22:25. | |
sure he will continue as Chancellor. Reshuffle could come along, he could | :22:26. | :22:31. | |
be moved. I am asking you as a guest, representing the Tory party. | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
I suspect he will stay in post. Conceivably, he might be moved to | :22:38. | :22:40. | |
the Foreign Office but I don't think so. Has a damaged his longer-term | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
ambitions? It has damaged them but not destroyed them. As I said | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
yesterday, ending Smith has done more, if you like, to help people | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
who claim benefits than Labour has done over the last five years -- in | :22:57. | :23:03. | |
Duncan Smith. The canonisation of Iain Duncan Smith is perhaps | :23:04. | :23:06. | |
premature, there's lots of damage he has done, but returning to your | :23:07. | :23:13. | |
points about the Chancellor, I think that really this resignation letter | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
and the condition within it that the decisions that were taken, were | :23:17. | :23:22. | |
taken from political reasons and not national interest, is a devastating | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
accusation to make from a former leader, if I may say so, of the | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
Conservative Party, the current Chancellor and Prime Minister and | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
George Osborne, his future, if you want to stay as Chancellor | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
commission ruled himself out of any leadership contest because | :23:41. | :23:42. | |
everything he does will be interpreted through that prison, is | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
this purely a political decision in order to advance his own leadership | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
campaign, rather than something in the national interest? We have a | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
situation where six days after the budget, the Chancellor is having to | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
come in front of the House of Commons to rewrite his budget. There | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
is a lying there in the red, ?4.4 billion of expenditure, which can't | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
explain, where that is coming from -- there was a lying there in the | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
red book. Are they going to cut other budgets? They seem to have | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
ring fence the Department for Work and Pensions yesterday, what is the | :24:22. | :24:23. | |
explanation for what they going to do? Has the budget unravelled? It's | :24:24. | :24:32. | |
a total and utter mess. There I say that both George Osborne and Iain | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
Duncan Smith may be missing the Liberal Democrats because it was | :24:38. | :24:43. | |
decisions like this, the PIP cuts... You were happy to sign off to the | :24:44. | :24:50. | |
bedroom tax as Liberal Democrats. But I can tell you that over the | :24:51. | :24:53. | |
course of the last Parliament, they were a range of welfare cuts | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
proposed by the Treasury, vetoed by the Liberal Democrats, and I think | :24:59. | :25:00. | |
you Duncan Smith would probably still be in government had we still | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
be there to veto this. The problem with these PIP changes, I don't | :25:05. | :25:15. | |
think it's the detail of the PIP adjustments, it is this contrast | :25:16. | :25:16. | |
between a budget that cut capital gains tax was above the richest | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
people in the country, increased a prudent opportunity for those who | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
have expensive, well-paid lawyers, at the same time as imposing welfare | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
cuts on people with low incomes, and that has always been a blind spot | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
for both George Osborne and David Cameron. Is it a blind spot for | :25:35. | :25:40. | |
conservatives? Is compassionate conservatism dead or was it ever | :25:41. | :25:46. | |
alive? It's not dead, I was Secretary of State for Social | :25:47. | :25:49. | |
Security and took these issues extremely seriously. I got by | :25:50. | :25:57. | |
without any rebellions at all. But you were famous but your little list | :25:58. | :26:04. | |
as well! I wasn't compassionate people who were taking money that | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
was intended... Cheating the system. Including politicians in that list. | :26:10. | :26:16. | |
Read using expenses claims wrongly. I was always in favour of getting | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
the money, not the fraudsters but to people who really needed it. Where | :26:21. | :26:26. | |
would you get the money from? There is ?4.4 billion, you would just add | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
that to the deficit? We are barely six days after the budget and the | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
government can't even explain where it is getting the money from. John | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
McDonnell set out very clearly what our fiscal rules would be if we get | :26:41. | :26:43. | |
into power in four years and three months' time. But we are six days | :26:44. | :26:51. | |
after the at it and the government can't explain... Would you support | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
ring fencing yet another department, meaning more pressure on other, | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
unprotected departments and especially one with such a huge | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
budget? The ballot in this budget was wrong. Compassionate | :27:07. | :27:09. | |
conservatism is the difference between rhetoric and reality, | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
compassion is the rhetoric, conservatism is the reality. If you | :27:16. | :27:18. | |
look at the budget, it diverted resources away from the poorest in | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
society towards more affluent and it targeted the disabled and those most | :27:25. | :27:27. | |
vulnerable in our society, and that is the reality of the thinking, and | :27:28. | :27:32. | |
as Iain Duncan Smith pointed out, it was a political choice made on the | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
basis that, these are the people who don't work for us. Following the | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
resignation yesterday, his successor said behind every statistic there is | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
a human being and sometimes in government perhaps we forget that. | :27:47. | :27:52. | |
George Osborne forgot that, did he? He would have to ask Stephen Crabb | :27:53. | :27:58. | |
if he was directing his remarks at the Chancellor. I think politicians | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
as a whole can talk in big numbers and forget the individual people | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
behind it. It's important always the present what you're doing in the way | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
it's going to impact on the vulnerable, the needy, individual | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
family and household, not just as statistics. On the minus side, the | :28:17. | :28:24. | |
solution is to drop the capital gains tax changes which could weigh | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
something like ?3 billion... If that was cancelled by the Conservatives, | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
it could send out a positive message and fill that hole. In 2010, George | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
Osborne put up capital gains tax saying that was needed... Actually | :28:39. | :28:45. | |
there is an identity between the mat of money the Chancellor to find from | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
curbing growth of disability benefit and the increase in our conservation | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
to the European Union since the last budget. So we're saving money... So | :28:55. | :29:00. | |
was it to keep Tory MPs on-board? Anyway, we again to hear a bit of | :29:01. | :29:03. | |
the Chancellor in the programme. Thank you both. | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
Now our guest of the day David Laws has written a book | :29:09. | :29:11. | |
in which he spills the beans on life as a Lib Dem minister in government | :29:12. | :29:14. | |
David Cameron probably won't be reading it on his Easter holidays | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
because, among a number of rather explosive claims, | :29:19. | :29:20. | |
it says that Downing Street leant on the boss of NHS England | :29:21. | :29:23. | |
to get him to reduce the amount of funding he said the health | :29:24. | :29:26. | |
Well we'll be talking more about that particular claim | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
in a moment, but first here's Ellie with a look at his account of life | :29:30. | :29:32. | |
David Anthony Laws, Liberal Democrats, 18,865. | :29:33. | :29:38. | |
David Laws was not amongst the lucky Lib Dems who kept their seats | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
He'd been an MP for 14 years and a key figure in the party, | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
particularly in the coalition negotiations in 2010. | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
David was absolutely crucial to that. | :29:53. | :29:53. | |
He was the guy who was forensically obsessing about all of the policy | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
details and he fought like a tiger really for his two | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
and a half billion pound People Premium. | :30:02. | :30:03. | |
I remember the set-to between him and George Osborne across the table. | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
And who knows how that relationship might have developed? | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
He became the Chief Secretary of the Treasury but, | :30:13. | :30:14. | |
17 days later resigned following an expenses scandal. | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
The last two days have been the longest and certainly | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
and remained a close adviser to Nick Clegg. | :30:23. | :30:29. | |
Mostly by e-mail, mostly very, very quietly and covertly and most | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
people wouldn't have known about it, but his analysis was always really | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
close to Nick's thinking right through the coalition. | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
And anyway, a couple of years later, he was back | :30:42. | :30:43. | |
A department headed up by Michael Gove, a man he describes | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
in his book with whom it was possible to disagree | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
By 2013, Michael Gove tried to ban Lib Dem officials from even | :30:52. | :30:58. | |
going into the Department for Education and David at one stage | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
was trying to meet Michael Gove and he refused to meet him, | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
cancelled again, cancelled again, so David went to his office. | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
Michael hid in a toilet to avoid him. | :31:12. | :31:14. | |
David Laws' book appears that if the book on David Cameron's | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
relationship with Boris Johnson, a man whose leadership intentions | :31:19. | :31:20. | |
he's said to be petrified off but maybe the PM could be do worse | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
than take advice from his old Lib Dem colleagues. | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
David Laws played David Cameron in rehearsals for The Leaders Debate | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
in 2010 and I helped him prep for that particular role. | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
He was actually so good at playing David Cameron that he was better | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
than David Cameron was in the first debate. | :31:42. | :31:43. | |
David Laws also claimed that the NHS boss Simon Stephens had originally | :31:44. | :31:49. | |
called on the government to chip in an extra ?15 billion | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
That figure was revised down to a slightly more manageable | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
eight billion after Mr Laws says a certain amount of pressure | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
An insider view that's caused quite a stir now it's got out. | :32:03. | :32:09. | |
And we're joined now by the former Conservative health secretary, | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
You made that claim. How did you find out? Were you at the meeting it | :32:15. | :32:26. | |
was said? I was in Government talking to people who knew what was | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
going on and this is at the end of 2014, Simon Stephens took it on | :32:31. | :32:33. | |
himself, to create an argument about how much parties should put into the | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
NHS in the next Parliament and came up with a figure of about ?30 | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
billion. His view was that half of that could come from efficiency | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
savings and the rest needed to come from the Treasury. And then he | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
confronted the Tories in Downing Street, who said the figure of 15 | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
billion was not going to be delivered and he ought to come up | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
with a higher assumption for efficiency savings and a lower | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
figure of ?8 billion from the Treasury. It's a serious claim. Did | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
Conservatives in number ten put pressure on Simon Stephens to revise | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
down his figure? In the months running up to the general election, | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
I was not Secretary of State, Jeremy was, and David was not was in the | :33:17. | :33:19. | |
health department, and I do remember him saying anything about this | :33:20. | :33:22. | |
during the general election campaign. You don't think there's | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
any truth? We know what happened. In October before the election, NHS | :33:28. | :33:34. | |
England 's job was to set out... It set out the parameters of the extra | :33:35. | :33:37. | |
cash it might need and actually you can look at it, it said between | :33:38. | :33:43. | |
eight billion and 21 billion. It didn't mention 8 billion in the | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
report. The implication five-year forward view, when you look at the | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
range of increases in NHS budgets, implied comments supplying between | :33:53. | :33:58. | |
eight billion and 21 billion. I am told, Simon Stephens could've... It | :33:59. | :34:04. | |
was a large range, Simon Stephens asked for 8 billion because he | :34:05. | :34:06. | |
believed that was the largest amount the Government was willing to. So | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
they did make it clear, Downing Street, they wouldn't be able to | :34:12. | :34:14. | |
commit more than 8,000,000,007 the end he was given a de facto... I am | :34:15. | :34:21. | |
told Simon Stephens has had this publicly, confirmed the game in the | :34:22. | :34:26. | |
last few days, he asks for ?8 billion. He didn't ask for 15 | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
billion. It's interesting what they have said since the revelations of | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
come out of the weekend. What they have put out is what looks like a | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
denial that actually is what politicians and journalists call a | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
non-denial denial, saying no, there's nothing here. We've made it | :34:42. | :34:47. | |
clear it would be between eight and ?21 billion. That figure, though, | :34:48. | :34:56. | |
when was that figure used? I only remember the eight billion and 30 | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
billion over a five-year period. You can read it in a five-year forecast. | :35:01. | :35:08. | |
Go back and read it. It's not there. Go back and read and the proportions | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
under a scenario of flat real terms cash, real terms increases per | :35:13. | :35:18. | |
person or maintaining a proportion of GDP. When you look at the NHS | :35:19. | :35:25. | |
today, we know 8 billion is not going to be enough. That, to me is | :35:26. | :35:36. | |
clear. That 8 billion requires you to assume efficiency savings will be | :35:37. | :35:45. | |
three times the average the NHS has achieved in the last parliament. | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
Nobody serious in the NHS believes that that is deliverable. Did you | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
put that figure in your party 's manifesto? We firstly by the way | :35:55. | :36:01. | |
didn't realise until two months after and Simon Stephens published | :36:02. | :36:04. | |
this, what had actually gone on. When we did, we not only committed 8 | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
billion, at least 8 billion, secondly, Norman Lamb, the health | :36:10. | :36:15. | |
spokesman at the time, wrote to the other two parties spokespeople, | :36:16. | :36:21. | |
Jeremy Hunt for the Tories, and Andy Burnham for labour, and said, we | :36:22. | :36:24. | |
need a completely independent review of the NHS finances for the next | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
Parliament to make sure it is totally independent and ask up to | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
it. In the end, you also underestimated or didn't know what | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
was going on? Once we were clear the 8 billion was essentially a fixed | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
figure and not a serious figure, we put in our manifesto that we thought | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
we needed a complete review, independent review of what the real | :36:50. | :36:52. | |
efficiency savings should be and that's the answer to this dispute | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
now. Get the Office for Budget Responsibility... No, that's not the | :36:59. | :37:00. | |
answer, the answer to the question is, what the Government and most of | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
the political parties said at the general election, is to take the NHS | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
England own plan and deliver it. My point about 8 billion is the | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
five-year review relies upon efficiency gains, high efficiency | :37:15. | :37:22. | |
gains even the last Parliament, we met what is called the Nicholson | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
challenge. It was a big couldn't do it. The idea the NHS for five years | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
can deliver efficiency gains of 15 billion and end with 22 billion was | :37:32. | :37:37. | |
always a stretch. My point is, it isn't about taking it out of the | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
hands of NHS England. What is important is to give NHS England the | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
backing of the plan. Andrew Lansley, it's worrying, isn't it? This is a | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
row about big figures about the NHS, and you have admitted 8 billion was | :37:52. | :37:59. | |
not going to be enough. It's a real terms increase but, compared to | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
demand, it's going to be incredibly difficult. It's also about trust and | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
how will the voters be able to trust NHS England or the Government if | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
this is the story which comes out after a general election? It's not | :38:13. | :38:19. | |
accurate. But you're also admitting it's not enough so there's a dispute | :38:20. | :38:22. | |
and nobody will know what the truth is. Get the Office for Budget | :38:23. | :38:28. | |
Responsibility, totally independent, to look at these efficiency | :38:29. | :38:35. | |
assumptions and come sensible. I'm not criticising Simon Stephens. He | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
will face questions from the select committee but he will shift things | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
from a situation all the parties were talking about, protection, to | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
getting ?8 billion more but the problem is he didn't get what he | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
really needed, which was ?15 billion and we need now to air that fact | :38:54. | :38:57. | |
that the 8 billion was never realistic to get the NHS funding. Do | :38:58. | :39:03. | |
you think that would work? If this dispute was resolved more money | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
would be given to the NHS? All of us are accountable and Simon Stephens | :39:08. | :39:12. | |
is accountable as Chief Executive to Parliament, not just to Government. | :39:13. | :39:16. | |
The point is, he has set out a plan and it does require funding for | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
social care, and the Government through the council tax increases as | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
given that, efficiency gains, and if they can't be realised on the scale | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
required, of course, the consequence cannot be that the NHS feels it can | :39:33. | :39:37. | |
deliver quality for patients. The answer has to be how are we going | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
to... So you agree those efficiency assumptions are not credible? Thank | :39:42. | :39:44. | |
you both for coming in. Now let's go back to events | :39:45. | :39:47. | |
in Brussels and talk about how the British authorities | :39:48. | :39:50. | |
have responded. The Home Office says this morning | :39:51. | :39:51. | |
it's introduced a heightened There are additional security checks | :39:52. | :39:53. | |
on some flights, and at key ports The Foreign Office has advised | :39:54. | :39:58. | |
Britons in Belgium to stay We're expecting Home Secretary | :39:59. | :40:07. | |
Theresa May to make a statement later, and a short while ago | :40:08. | :40:14. | |
we heard from the Prime Minister. I've just spoken to the Prime | :40:15. | :40:29. | |
Minister of Belgium to give our sympathies and condolences to the | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
Belgian people and we absolutely stand with them at this very | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
difficult time. These attacks in Belgium and they could just a tax in | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
Britain or in France or Germany or elsewhere in Europe and we need to | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
stand together against these appalling terrorists and make sure | :40:46. | :40:52. | |
they can never win. We that was the Prime Minister. | :40:53. | :40:53. | |
We're joined now by the chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee | :40:54. | :40:56. | |
Crispin Blunt, and the chairman of the Home Affairs Committee, | :40:57. | :40:58. | |
Welcome to you. Your thoughts after what's happened? Obviously our heart | :40:59. | :41:04. | |
goes out to all the people caught up in this. The important thing is the | :41:05. | :41:10. | |
well rehearsed plans need to go into place and there needs to be a proper | :41:11. | :41:13. | |
assessment here which is being done by COBRA and in Brussels they will | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
be going through their emergency plans in the event of like this, | :41:20. | :41:26. | |
which I have been anticipating. In terms of what action should now be | :41:27. | :41:30. | |
taken, we have heard Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London increasing | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
police presence in the capital and no doubt action will be taken at | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
ports and at airports. How long should that go on for in your mind, | :41:40. | :41:46. | |
Crispin Blunt? That is a matter of the threat assessment and that's | :41:47. | :41:48. | |
what we have intelligence agencies for, to make assessments of what | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
measures are required but the key strategic thing is not to overreact. | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
We are in a war with so-called Islamic State and it remains | :41:58. | :42:03. | |
essential to deprive them of territory from which to organise | :42:04. | :42:06. | |
these kinds of attacks and then you have to have a domestic policy which | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
is then making sure it is more difficult for them to have people in | :42:12. | :42:17. | |
our community who are going to be capable of mounting these kinds of | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
attacks. We will hear from the Home Secretary later on today. She is | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
expected to give a statement. In your mind now, the balance between | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
security and liberty, particularly when legislation on the | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
investigatory Powers Bill is now going through Parliament, does that | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
need to be revisited in terms of tipping the balance further toward | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
security? Not in respect of what happened today. That is something | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
which is, of course, subject to parliamentary scrutiny, Bill going | :42:50. | :42:52. | |
through Parliament. That we hope to hear from the Home Secretary at our | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
committee, due to appear this afternoon. The key issue now is | :42:57. | :43:04. | |
secure in the Borders. Making sure, exactly as Crispin has said, this is | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
well practised. We have the best counterterrorism expert in the UK, | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
there are currently 2000 suspects that they are watching, they will | :43:15. | :43:19. | |
continue to do so and we must offer full support to the Belgian | :43:20. | :43:27. | |
authorities. There is Europol, which we support, which brings together | :43:28. | :43:33. | |
the countries of the EU, there is Interpol, the National Crime Agency | :43:34. | :43:35. | |
and the counterterrorism command, there is no question that we are | :43:36. | :43:41. | |
properly equipped in order to deal with the situation. But, as Crispin | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
said, we need to be vigilant. The public have a role to play in this, | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
they need to feed information, any information they can, but we must | :43:51. | :43:53. | |
never give in to the fear that the terrorists wish to make sure that we | :43:54. | :43:59. | |
suffer from. They want to make sure we are fearful of going about our | :44:00. | :44:05. | |
normal business. So we need to make sure we deal with that. How | :44:06. | :44:08. | |
important our community relations yet again in this country, because, | :44:09. | :44:14. | |
when we look at what happened in Belgium with | :44:15. | :44:17. | |
when we look at what happened in home-grown terrorist, as a number of | :44:18. | :44:20. | |
them were in the previous Paris attacks, and they have been | :44:21. | :44:22. | |
criticised for not dealing with the problem areas, Molenbeek, what is | :44:23. | :44:28. | |
the state of community relations here in trying to deal with our own | :44:29. | :44:33. | |
potential home-grown terrorists? We live in the most multicultural | :44:34. | :44:37. | |
country in the world. We have a Prime Minister who is very keen to | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
make sure that he supports and promotes multiculturalism. Molenbeek | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
I don't think that happen in our country because it would never have | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
reached the stage where the Belgian authorities are now stepping back | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
and staying this is the scent of jihadists, we should have done | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
something similar. I think we are having excellent committee relations | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
and the committee is looking at counterterrorism... It's been | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
criticised. Certainly, people have been critical but we will bring our | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
report out in a measured way, not in response to what happened in | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
Brussels. But by listening to communities and taking proper | :45:17. | :45:18. | |
evidence and then will make recommendations. | :45:19. | :45:23. | |
The Labour Party and SNP abstained on the second reading of the bill, | :45:24. | :45:31. | |
Andy Burnham says it there were key aspect he was unhappy with. The | :45:32. | :45:34. | |
Liberal Democrats called the Labour Party doubtless. What I would say is | :45:35. | :45:41. | |
the challenge is to get things right. We have to be willing to make | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
sure the security services have the powers to investigate communications | :45:47. | :45:54. | |
as they are in today's world, not yesterday's, and target people who | :45:55. | :46:00. | |
are serious risks of committing terrorist activity, but we're also | :46:01. | :46:03. | |
trying to protect freedoms we enjoy, without ending up is a police state | :46:04. | :46:10. | |
where law-abiding citizens... Do you think this bill is doing that? I | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
think when we were in coalition with the Conservatives, there were big | :46:16. | :46:21. | |
tensions over this issue. We took the security concerns very seriously | :46:22. | :46:25. | |
but we were concerned sometimes that the Conservatives were trying to | :46:26. | :46:27. | |
overreach themselves and the powers that they gave... It's not just | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
about legislation, it's about bringing communities with you. If | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
you put communities and the leadership of the Prevent agenda and | :46:38. | :46:43. | |
not make them suspicious, you have a better chance of finding out where | :46:44. | :46:46. | |
people are hiding and what they are doing. For someone to stay three | :46:47. | :46:52. | |
months in Belgium, four months, and not be found, that's something the | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
Belgian police need to look at. We need to make sure we engage with | :46:58. | :47:01. | |
those communities. Are the elements in government that actually want to | :47:02. | :47:04. | |
restrict liberty is too far, to take this issue too far, and will use | :47:05. | :47:11. | |
incidents like this do so? There is a tension on this between those who | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
were required to deliver security and the overall objective of making | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
sure we are delivering our security, to preserve our liberties. So this | :47:21. | :47:25. | |
measure is going through Parliament, it will get proper examination in | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
that light, and the same debates would have taken place within | :47:30. | :47:32. | |
government in bringing the proposals forward. Those are the tensions you | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
have in a free society, and it is essential in fighting this threat | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
that in our society, we do not drive people away from cooperating with us | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
by appearing to be on the wrong side of the fence. In the end they will | :47:47. | :47:53. | |
be whole communities who would be the best ally of the security | :47:54. | :47:56. | |
services, of containing and addressing this threat. Thank you. | :47:57. | :48:06. | |
Now this week sees the start of official campaigning ahead | :48:07. | :48:09. | |
Yesterday we told you about the local elections happening around | :48:10. | :48:12. | |
England, but today here's our guide to the national elections taking | :48:13. | :48:15. | |
Voters in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland go to the polls | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
on Thursday 5th May to elect representatives | :48:20. | :48:21. | |
The Scottish Labour party have 38, Scottish Conservatives 15 | :48:22. | :48:30. | |
Liberal Democrats 5, Greens 2 and there are 3 | :48:31. | :48:51. | |
In Wales, Labour are the largest party in the Welsh Assembly holding | :48:52. | :48:54. | |
Her party - the Democrat Unionists, are currently the largest party | :48:55. | :49:29. | |
in the coalition government - and they hold 38 Assembly seats. | :49:30. | :49:48. | |
Joining me now from Edinburgh is our correspondent | :49:49. | :49:50. | |
So the SNP look like they can't be touched in these elections? That is | :49:51. | :50:02. | |
what the polls suggest at the moment, the SNP are going for an | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
historic third term here but this is going to be an interesting election. | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
Quite different from the ones we have had before, because of the new | :50:12. | :50:14. | |
powers the Scottish Parliament now has, it's all going to be about tax | :50:15. | :50:18. | |
and yesterday Nicola Sturgeon laid out what she's going to do with | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
those new powers, and some interesting news, higher rate | :50:24. | :50:28. | |
taxpayers, on 40p rate, if you are earning more than ?43,000, in | :50:29. | :50:34. | |
Scotland you will be paying ?323 more because Nicola Sturgeon is not | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
passing on the Chancellor's raising of the threshold up to 45,000, they | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
will not go up to rate either, that has been ditched, the basic rate of | :50:46. | :50:51. | |
income tax will be frozen as well. So this election is all about tax, | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
Labour have been saying these proposals, the SNP have bottled it, | :50:57. | :51:00. | |
the Lib Dems have said they are timid because those parties are | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
pressing to raise taxes, an extra penny in the tax, mostly going to | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
education. Do you think this will filter down in enough time to the | :51:09. | :51:17. | |
electorate? This election really has... Scottish politics has changed | :51:18. | :51:20. | |
so much since that date in September 20 14. Everyone coalesces now around | :51:21. | :51:27. | |
the issue of independence, whether you are pro union or pro | :51:28. | :51:34. | |
independence. People will not really be voting for these proposals but | :51:35. | :51:39. | |
how they want to see Scotland in the future, whether that's part of the | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
UK or whether that's an independent Scotland. So these proposals what | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
filter down to people but the debate here has changed, it's all still | :51:48. | :51:50. | |
about the independence word. And BBC Wales' political | :51:51. | :51:53. | |
correspondent Daniel Davies is with us from the Welsh | :51:54. | :51:55. | |
Assembly in Cardiff. Do you expect any surprises in the | :51:56. | :52:04. | |
results of these elections in Wales? As it happens, we had a new batch of | :52:05. | :52:10. | |
polling data and some see the predictions published this morning, | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
showing that Labour's position as the biggest party here looks assured | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
the time being at least, the other parties have just over six weeks to | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
try and change that. But this new golf poll showed that Labour are | :52:24. | :52:31. | |
likely to remain the biggest party. However their support has slid | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
noticeably in Wales, down 14 points on a similar poll in March 2011, | :52:37. | :52:43. | |
just before the last election stop so they would lose some seeds, | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
pulling away from the threshold of 31, which is what they need to form | :52:48. | :52:52. | |
an outright majority here. The Tories and applied country are | :52:53. | :53:04. | |
locked in a battle for second place. Attention turning to what will | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
happen after polling day, will there be a coalition to oust Labour from | :53:09. | :53:14. | |
office? At the moment it's difficult to see circumstances in which that | :53:15. | :53:18. | |
will happen, unlike in Scotland, there is no one big opposition party | :53:19. | :53:21. | |
threatening to displace Labour, the opposition is split ideological, so | :53:22. | :53:28. | |
Labour are looking at a position where they can hold onto power, to | :53:29. | :53:34. | |
take the next election but one, an unbroken period of 21 of a Labour | :53:35. | :53:36. | |
First Minister. Downing Street has just confirmed | :53:37. | :53:48. | |
that one British National is known to have been injured in the bomb | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
attack in the airport on Brussels. Our foreign affairs analyst has | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
joined us. We were talking earlier and discussing the response here, as | :53:58. | :54:03. | |
you said, it will have an impact on the investigatory Powers Bill and | :54:04. | :54:06. | |
could even influence the EU referendum. But the politicians it | :54:07. | :54:11. | |
will all be about security and tightening that, do you think now | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
they will feel in a position that they can extend security further | :54:18. | :54:19. | |
than perhaps would have been palatable a few months ago? No, | :54:20. | :54:24. | |
because it didn't happen here. If it did, they would. The investigatory | :54:25. | :54:33. | |
Powers Bill is pretty tight as it is, they pushed it quite underway | :54:34. | :54:36. | |
already and I did not detect in the discussion you had with various MPs, | :54:37. | :54:43. | |
any real need to push it much further. I think it's going to go | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
through, the civil Liberties people think it has already gone too far, | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
so I think it's good to go through anyway and this particular event | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
isn't good change that. What about the terrorism cells we were talking | :54:58. | :55:02. | |
about at the beginning? Clearly the capability is very much there, how | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
do you deal with that? Is this the way we're going to have to live | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
lives for the future? This is the way, we have been and we will be for | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
many years to come, when David Cameron said it was a generational | :55:17. | :55:20. | |
struggle, that's what he meant, I think Tony Blair said it. How to | :55:21. | :55:28. | |
deal with it, I think it is twofold. The UK police at the moment are | :55:29. | :55:31. | |
appealing to any Brits that were caught up in either of the | :55:32. | :55:34. | |
explosions, can they please send us footage. They are doing that for two | :55:35. | :55:40. | |
reasons, they will go through all the footage, see if they see | :55:41. | :55:46. | |
anything adjusting send it to their Belgian counterparts, and see if | :55:47. | :55:49. | |
there is anyone they recognise in that. I mention that because the way | :55:50. | :55:56. | |
to combat it is through unity, and Corporation. The Belgians are behind | :55:57. | :56:02. | |
the game, they need to get ahead of the game. I always come back to | :56:03. | :56:12. | |
this, like a broken record... Unless you defeat the ideology, you will | :56:13. | :56:19. | |
simply get the next Isis. Do you agree that however much security | :56:20. | :56:24. | |
there is, however good the surveillance, in all these | :56:25. | :56:26. | |
countries, you will never be able to stop it unless you can deal with the | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
ideology? Yes, you have to go to the root of this, the ideology, and not | :56:32. | :56:36. | |
react just to individual instances, whether in the UK or abroad, but | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
understand that this risk is going to be therefore many years and | :56:41. | :56:43. | |
maintain as high a level of security as possible, rather than reacting to | :56:44. | :56:49. | |
events when it's too late. What about the weaponry? I understand it | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
was a sort rifles used in the Paris attacks, and they will put online? | :56:54. | :56:59. | |
-- assault rifles. The Czech Republic has an awful lot of spare | :57:00. | :57:05. | |
Kalashnikovs, AK-47s, you can get them for ?200. Surely that is being | :57:06. | :57:12. | |
dealt with? The dark web, the intelligence of this is trying to | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
get into that... On my phone, I have an app and I can talk to somebody | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
else on it and it scrambles it and as far as I know, this app I have, | :57:22. | :57:24. | |
the intelligence services cannot as far as I know, this app I have, | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
break it yet. You could make not meant about Civil Liberties, but the | :57:29. | :57:32. | |
fact is they can't. -- you could make an argument. Also, this is why | :57:33. | :57:39. | |
the border issue will come back into the equation, these people have been | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
travelling around the Schengen zone... Isn't that the end of the | :57:44. | :57:49. | |
Schengen zone for the foreseeable future, not just because of the | :57:50. | :57:52. | |
attacks but also migrant crisis, it is lent itself to the fear too many | :57:53. | :57:58. | |
people travelling around a big area? Quite clinical when you don't have | :57:59. | :58:01. | |
the benefit we do of the English Channel, it is much more difficult | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
to control, one of the things we have done is to restore entry and | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
exit checks, which will make it easier to monitor people. These are | :58:11. | :58:16. | |
some of the dreadful pictures, look at the damage and devastation at the | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
airport stop there were two explosions, a smaller expression and | :58:21. | :58:29. | |
then tragically, people ran into the direction of the larger explosion -- | :58:30. | :58:36. | |
a smaller explosion. We will need eg with these scenes today, I'm afraid, | :58:37. | :58:37. | |
the mayhem in Brussels. That's all for today. | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
Thanks to our guests. The One O'Clock News is starting | :58:43. | :58:48. | |
over on BBC One now. | :58:49. | :58:53. |