Browse content similar to 29/04/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:36. | :00:43. | |
Labour promises to get a grip, following the anti-Semitism meltdown | :00:44. | :00:51. | |
within the party, Jeremy Corbyn says it is not a crisis. | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
Just a week ahead of crucial elections, has the very public row | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
which saw former Mayor defend Ken Livingstone defend controversial | :00:58. | :00:59. | |
remarks about Hitler and Israel seriously damaged Labour? | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
Nigel Farage says he's aiming for his enemy's goal as he puts | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
immigration front and centre of his campaign to leave the EU. | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
Barak Obama's intervention in the EU debate was high | :01:10. | :01:18. | |
profile and controversial - we'll be asking a former US | :01:19. | :01:20. | |
ambassador to Nato if it's advice America itself would ever follow. | :01:21. | :01:27. | |
They were a true blue Conservative idea to strengthen | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
But have Police and Crime Commissioners confused | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
of the programme today two political soulmates in the making. | :01:35. | :01:48. | |
Rachel Shabi writes for the Guardan and the Independent and Toby Young | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
Actually they've yet to find an issue they agree on, | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
First today let's talk about the anti-Semitism row that | :01:56. | :02:04. | |
The former Mayor Ken Livingstone pushed the self-destruct button | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
in an extraordinary sequence of events at Westminster. | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
Mr Livingstone, who was co-chairman of the Labour's defence policy | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
review, claimed in a series of interviews including one on this | :02:16. | :02:21. | |
programme that Hitler had once supported Zionism; the movement | :02:22. | :02:23. | |
to establish a Jewish state in what is now Israel. | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
He said that anti-Semitism was not "exactly the same" as racism, | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
adding that someone was only anti-Semitic if they hated | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
all Jewish people, "not just the ones in Israel". | :02:35. | :02:44. | |
You Nazi apologist. Re-writing history. | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
As he came into this building to be interviewed | :02:49. | :02:51. | |
on the Daily Politics Mr Livingstone was involved in a heated | :02:52. | :02:54. | |
confrontation with the Labour MP John Mann, who accused | :02:55. | :02:56. | |
Mr Livingstone of being a "Nazi apologist". | :02:57. | :02:58. | |
Just a week away from elections across the UK that are crucial | :02:59. | :03:01. | |
for the Labour Party, a series of MPs including the London | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
mayoral candidate Sadiq Khan called for him to be suspended form | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
the party for his "appalling and inexcusable" remarks. | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
Well this is what happened when Mr Livingstone made | :03:15. | :03:16. | |
But you seem to be implying, "Oh, well, he wasn't such a bad guy, cos | :03:17. | :03:24. | |
he just wanted to deport them all, but he only went wrong later on". | :03:25. | :03:27. | |
I mean, people will think it unbelievable, what they're hearing | :03:28. | :03:29. | |
He was a monster from start to finish but | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
it's simply the historical fact - his policy was initially to send all | :03:34. | :03:36. | |
Hitler was not a Zionist and to suggest so | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
I think you've lost it, Mr Livingstone. | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
It's a deliberate, calculated attempt to cause | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
You certainly shouldn't be on Labour's national executive. | :03:52. | :04:01. | |
Soon after we went off air Ken Livingstone was suspended | :04:02. | :04:03. | |
from the Labour Party, while John Mann was hauled before | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
the Chief Whip to be told it was completely inappropriate | :04:08. | :04:09. | |
to be involved with rows with other Labour members on TV. | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
Well Mr Corbyn insists here is no crisis in the party, | :04:16. | :04:18. | |
and that the small number of cases of anti-Semitism in the party have | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
Mr Livingstone spoke to reporters this morning as he left his house | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
I'm not making any statement until I do my LBC programme with David | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
Mellor at ten o'clock tomorrow morning. | :04:35. | :04:36. | |
If you got questions, phone in and ask us, just like all the | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
What do you think Corbyn should do about... | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
I've just told you, I'm not doing interviews. | :04:45. | :04:45. | |
You can waste your time standing here all day. | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
I've got to do the washing, then I'm doing some | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
work on the pond, moving some of the newts. | :04:53. | :05:01. | |
Good to boost your ratings in your show, we never miss an opportunity | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
To bring us up to speed with what's been happening this morning, | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
we're joined by our correspondent Iain Watson. | :05:11. | :05:11. | |
Have there been developments this morning? It has, Andrew, apart from | :05:12. | :05:19. | |
Ken Livingstone spending time with his much-loved reptiles rather than | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
members of the press, regarded as much the same thing to be honest! | :05:25. | :05:31. | |
But Watson called Ken Livingstone's remarks crass and in addition | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
suggested that an investigation currently carried out by a Labour | :05:36. | :05:44. | |
peer, Baroness Royal, connected to Neil Kinnock and into anti-Semitism | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
by some of the students at Oxford University that investigation could | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
have a wider remit to look at anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
There could be suggestions for changes to rules against | :06:00. | :06:02. | |
anti-Semitism and racism. So he is going on the front foot But the | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
criticism has been that while Jeremy Corbyn is not in the slightest bit | :06:08. | :06:14. | |
anti-Semitic has been slow to act. So what we are beginning to see in | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
the Labour Party is the issue being used as the soft underbelly against | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
his own leadership and calling into question his judgments. | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
There must be a danger that this story, as we say in the trade, has | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
legs, over the weekend. That it will carry into the weekend, everybody | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
trawling around for examples of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party, | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
especially in Jeremy Corbyn's wing of the Labour Party. They may not | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
find anymore, we don't know. But I get the sense this story will not go | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
away quickly? I think that is right. For a number of reasons. Firstly, I | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
think you are right, there will be a continuing trawl. Speak to a Labour | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
MP offer the record he said there is more to the story. Some have been | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
looking at the supporters of Jeremy Corbyn, perhaps some to the left of | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
the Labour Party and came to the Labour Party in order to support his | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
leadership, many of them prove Palestinian and anti-Zionist, or at | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
the least, critical of some of the actions of the government of the | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
state of Israel and people are looking to see if those comments | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
have spilled over into anti-Semitism and can be used as a stick with | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
which to beat Jeremy Corbyn's own supporters. In addition, there are | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
former frontbenchers lining up to denounce what will be poor elections | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
results for Labour in England. And I think that they have been given am | :07:41. | :07:46. | |
mission, as they can say that Jeremy Corbyn's lack of grip will | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
contribute to poor results. So pressure on his leadership and more | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
pressure on his supporters in the next few days. | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
Thank you. And before you start writing in to | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
us, I think that newts are amphibians and with are the | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
reptiles, the journalists? That is probably right. | :08:09. | :08:17. | |
Rachel Shabi was it right to suspend Ken Livingstone? Anti-Semitism | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
clearly is a problem. At the same time I think it would be naive to | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
not see what is going on in the #4r5i7 in the context of there being | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
elements of the reason and the Labour Party itself that are using | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
this, that want to undermine the Jeremy Corbyn leadership and have | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
openly spoken about him not wanting to be there. | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
So was it right to suspend him? So there is that as a context and | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
looking at the speed with which the Labour Party responded and the | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
numbers involved, that is where the claim it is is a specifically a | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
Jeremy Corbyn issue, start to lose credibility. Yes, it was right to | :08:56. | :09:02. | |
suspend him. While we are at it, is there a wider issue with | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
anti-Semitism in the wider progressive left, absolutely, yes, | :09:07. | :09:08. | |
there is. Why? The progressive left has become | :09:09. | :09:15. | |
desensitised and careless to anti-Semitism. One of the reasons is | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
that they somehow feel that they can't be racist. Obviously a | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
mistake, we are all capable of racism. I think when you see a | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
strong and heavily ministerialised Jewish state, some people are | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
incapable of understanding that Jewish people are also a minority | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
and vulnerable to racist abuse. I think that anti-Semitism has been | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
used to shut down legitimate criticisms of Israel so there has | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
been an element that some have not been able to see beyond. And also I | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
think there is a hypocrisy around this which fuelled resentment. We | :09:56. | :10:02. | |
have a sitting Lord Mayor, that has made racist comments against a black | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
American President... He has been taken to task on that. | :10:07. | :10:14. | |
We have a Conservative mayoral candidate, openly dogging | :10:15. | :10:16. | |
Islamophobia, and a perception of double standards in the way we | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
handle these things. Which, to be serious about tackling | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
anti-Semitism, we have to take it seriously and to be consistent. | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
Toby Young is this used as a way to undermine Jeremy Corbyn's | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
leadership? I think clearly the anti-Corbyn group within the Labour | :10:37. | :10:39. | |
Party will use anything that they can to try and winkle him out. But I | :10:40. | :10:45. | |
don't think that you can claim that they somehow prompted Ken | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
Livingstone to behave in the way he did yesterday. That was an | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
expression of how he actually feels. I think that the difficulty for | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
Corbyn and the reason he hesitated before acting, I mean it was claimed | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
yesterday when he was interviewed for the 10.00pm news that he acted | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
decisively and quickly, when these episodes were brought to light. | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
Actually he tried to avoid suspending Naz Shah and make do with | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
her resigning, and delayed saying anything in response to the Ken | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
Livingstone fiasco in the hope, imagine, that Livingstone could | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
cling on. The reason for that is, I think that there is a lot of the | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
same baggage in Jeremy Corbyn's past. He has described Hezbollah and | :11:31. | :11:38. | |
Hamas as friends. Appearing on Iranian state television and also | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
Ken Livingstone. And the denying of the Holocaust. It is difficult for | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
him to come on top of Livingstone too heavily without trouble for | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
himself. You can make the claim but all of | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
these reactions have come within 24 to 48 hours. If you make it quicker, | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
what you are doing is a witch hunt. You have not given fair | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
consideration. I don't know why we think that 24 hours is too long to | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
react to this. I think as there were a number of reports that Jeremy | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
Corbyn was trying to avoid suspending Ken Livingstone. | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
But the issue about the Labour Party and anti-Semitism is that this | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
didn't happen... This is not a result of Corbyn becoming Labour | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
Party leader. In all of the instances, these are instances that | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
have been in play before he came in. It is not as though this suddenly, | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
magically appeared as a result of his leadership. There has always | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
been a toxic strand within the Labour Party who have had a blind | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
spot when it comes to things like anti-Semitism. | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
Do you think Jeremy Corbyn has a blind spot about anti-Semitism? I | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
do. I think that his anti-western ideology means he is willing to | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
embrass other groups that he sees are engaged in an anticolonial | :13:00. | :13:06. | |
struggle... There are moral short comings as he thinks of himself and | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
them on the side of the answeringels. | :13:11. | :13:13. | |
I think there is a confliction there. I trust Corbyn's track record | :13:14. | :13:21. | |
on all forms of racism. Tony Blair shared platforms with | :13:22. | :13:24. | |
Hamas. The shared platform thing is really dodgy. | :13:25. | :13:32. | |
Has he shared platforms a platform as leader of the Labour Party with | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
Hamas? No. He had to speak for Hamas in the | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
quartet... Are we to smear people as they stand next to somebody with | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
unsavoury views? That is starting to sound like a witch hunt. | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
If a Tory politicians shared a platform with BNP, what would you | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
say? Tory people have shared plot forms with all kinds of unsavoury | :14:00. | :14:06. | |
people... What leading Conservative in recent times has shared a | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
platform with BNP... You trying to tar people on association as opposed | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
to their track record on racism. I am trying to have a sensible | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
conversation about anti-Semitism it is important. | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
If you share a platform with people who think that the Jews and the | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
Israels should be driven into the sea, is that not an issue? It is an | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
issue whether you decide if you want peace and justice for both | :14:37. | :14:42. | |
Palestinians and Israel is. I have seen nothing that contravenes that | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
from Corbyn. When people attack Zionism, they are attacking Israel's | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
right to statehood. What they are saying is that the Israeli people | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
should throw themselves at the mercy of their enemies in what is probably | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
the most dangerous and anti-Semitic parts of the world. I will have to | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
move on. It is a very important subject but | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
we have to have time for the daily quiz. | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
The question for today is all about George Osborne's | :15:17. | :15:18. | |
appearance at the Westminster correspondents dinner last night. | :15:19. | :15:20. | |
The Chancellor surprised many of Fleet's Street's hungriest | :15:21. | :15:22. | |
and thirstiest hacks by telling some quite good jokes. | :15:23. | :15:24. | |
One of them was about Boris Johnson's timepiece, | :15:25. | :15:26. | |
so the question for today is - who appeared on the face | :15:27. | :15:28. | |
At the end of the show, Toby and Rachel will give us | :15:29. | :15:38. | |
Westminster is shutting up shop for the bank holiday weekend | :15:39. | :15:51. | |
but those campaigning ahead of the referendum on Britain's | :15:52. | :15:53. | |
membership of the EU aren't taking any time off to catch up | :15:54. | :15:56. | |
This morning the former Prime Minister John Major took aim | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
at those arguing to leave, saying the only place | :16:01. | :16:02. | |
they would find "undiluted sovereignty" in the modern world | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
And just a few hours ago Ukip leader Nigel Farage, | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
who of course is campaigning to leave, has tried to turn | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
the debate to what he sees as his side's strongest | :16:15. | :16:16. | |
Here is he is speaking in central London. | :16:17. | :16:25. | |
He discussed immigration and the sexual attacks in Cologne on New | :16:26. | :16:28. | |
Year's Eve. We saw the mass, open sexual | :16:29. | :16:30. | |
molestation of hundreds of women appearing in public and, | :16:31. | :16:32. | |
frankly, if we're prepared to accept - or if Germany and Sweden | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
are prepared to accept - unlimited numbers of young males | :16:39. | :16:41. | |
from countries and cultures where women are at best second class | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
citizens, then frankly And I do not want those young men | :16:46. | :16:52. | |
that were outside Cologne train station to have one of these, | :16:53. | :17:00. | |
in a few short years, And Nigel Farage is | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
here in the studio. Let's look at this issue of border | :17:05. | :17:16. | |
controls. Not the right to come and work here, which I understand would | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
change if we were to leave the EU. Anyone who comes into the UK, even | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
from the EU, they are checked. We stop terrorism at the border. That | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
won't change. The only people we can stop who got EU passports are people | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
who pose a direct threat to national security, namely terrorists. People | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
with criminal records, even serious criminal records, we have no right | :17:42. | :17:44. | |
to stop. We have stopped thousands coming in. There's an awful lot we | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
don't stop and there are people with... Whether it's burglary or | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
sexual assaults up Bob it's very difficult for us to stop people with | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
criminal records coming into Britain and once they are in Britain, it | :17:59. | :18:01. | |
almost impossible to stop them residing here. We cannot completely | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
insulate ourselves from the modern world, from the risks of terrorism | :18:07. | :18:09. | |
and all of these things, what we can do is make ourselves a little bit | :18:10. | :18:12. | |
safer by getting back control of our borders. But you won't be able to | :18:13. | :18:20. | |
stop people coming in, even if we are outside the EU, if they've got | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
EU passports, unless... Are you going to go through these assistant? | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
Lets say for arguments sake, the people who were outside Cologne | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
train station on New Year's Eve get convictions in Germany, all right? | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
They then in five or six years have a German passport, which is the same | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
as a British passport. They can come to Britain, they can settle here. We | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
could at that moment in time, as a free country, stop them from | :18:46. | :18:47. | |
entering the workplace and settling here. There's a problem with that | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
because anybody convicted under German law cannot get a German | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
passport. Under German law, you need to have a crime free record for up | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
to eight years before you can get a German passport. If they are | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
convicted, they will be ineligible for a German passport. In theory, | :19:08. | :19:10. | |
German citizenship is eight years. In Hungary is about three years. But | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
you don't get is at all if you get a criminal record. I think there is a | :19:16. | :19:18. | |
feeling that that will be ignored given the scale of the problem. We | :19:19. | :19:21. | |
are only one year in to Merkel's open door. The evidence thus far | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
this year is that the numbers coming to Europe are many, many times | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
bigger than they were last year. But it's eight years before you can get | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
a German passport. That's what citizenship is. I see no politician | :19:37. | :19:39. | |
in Germany recommending its going to change. You've got to speak the | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
language, you've got to have a clean criminal record. So none of the | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
Cologne attackers who been convicted would be accepted under German law | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
and therefore they couldn't come here. It's an and Sally, isn't it? | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
Very few of them are going to be convicted. Do we want to protect | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
ourselves or don't we? Are we safer nation with border controls or | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
without them? My point is that we still have that ability to control | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
the border from the kind of people you're talking about and that | :20:12. | :20:14. | |
doesn't change, whether we are in out of the EU. We cannot stop | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
criminal is coming into this country if they've got an EU passport, | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
simple as. The biggest threat to this country, I would suggest, given | :20:25. | :20:27. | |
the recent record, is not from people coming from the outside, its | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
home-grown terrorism, people with British passports. That was 7/7, | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
that was the attack on Liebrich B. That's most of the attacks at the | :20:39. | :20:46. | |
moment. -- Lee Rigby. Given that we have a huge home-grown problem | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
already, which is our own fault, why on earth would you wished to | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
compound that? Given that two of the eight attackers in Paris had come | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
back to France through the Islands, posing as migrants, given that | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
Europe also is that 5000 jihadis have come to Europe in the last few | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
months posing as migrants, you can see the scale of the problem. I | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
agree we have a problem. We cannot insulate ourselves completely from | :21:11. | :21:12. | |
global problems but we can relieve the pressure. Let me come into the | :21:13. | :21:18. | |
-- on to the economic arguments. You making more of an immigration case | :21:19. | :21:25. | |
because you are losing the economic battle? It's very clear what the | :21:26. | :21:28. | |
Remain camp have tried to do is pretty much what they did 40 years | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
ago, to use arguments about trade. I believe are spurious arguments. My | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
own view is that even with no successful renegotiation and just | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
trading on WTO rules, we'd still be better off than we are now because | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
the maximum cost of tariffs would only be two thirds of what our net | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
contribution is. However, the leave camp have been playing in their own | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
half of the pitch, defending the goal against these constant attacks | :21:56. | :21:57. | |
from the international community, whether it's the IMF or the OECD or | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
Obama or ogle tom Cobleigh, and where they are vulnerable, they are | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
vulnerable on immigration. They know there is no way we can control the | :22:08. | :22:10. | |
numbers coming into Britain as members of the European Union. I'm | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
urging the Leave camp to get onto the other half of the pitch and | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
start attacking their goal. You said that there would be no damage done | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
to the British economy if we leave and you've got Patrick Minford now, | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
a leading economist on your side, with six or seven other economists, | :22:31. | :22:37. | |
but Patrick Minford says that if we beat the EU it would" lemonade | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
manufacturing in the UK". Eliminate manufacturing. And is on your side! | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
He says it would be cheaper and we would have the ability to have | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
cheaper energy. So Patrick Minford says we would be better off by 4% | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
and not being part of the EU. But he also says if we let the EU, it would | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
seem likely that we mostly eliminate manufacturing, leading industry such | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
as design, marketing and hi-tech, in other words services. That's someone | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
on your side of the argument and anyone involved in manufacturing | :23:10. | :23:12. | |
would think, why would I vote for that to be a limited? He takes the | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
view that we are moving from a manufacturing to a service... But we | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
know that. I was in Sheffield last week and went to a steel foundry | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
where his Energy Bill is 60,000 quid a month. His competitors in America | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
and India have energy bills of 30,000 a month. I think outside the | :23:30. | :23:36. | |
EU, freed from some of the obligations that Blair signed us up | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
to, we would have a better chance stop We could change our energy | :23:41. | :23:43. | |
policy towards Manufacturing now. We don't have to leave the EU. The | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
Germans have. French and German electricity for intensive users is | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
much lower than ours and last time I looked, France and Germany were in | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
the EU. There is no question that George Osborne has been a disaster | :23:59. | :24:01. | |
for Manufacturing and has made the initial EU root words. But this | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
debate gets that are where we started the stop I don't think Joe | :24:06. | :24:08. | |
soap watching this hearing once I'd say we would be better off and | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
another saying we would be worse off will be convinced by any of it. I | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
think there will be a score draw because people will not get it and | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
understand it. If we want to win, we have to make the argument not just | :24:21. | :24:23. | |
for making our own laws, being in charge of our destiny, but | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
controlling our borders, controlling immigration and being able to have | :24:28. | :24:30. | |
something like the Australian style points system to measure the | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
quantity and quality of who comes to Britain. If we get there, we will | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
then motivate and mobilise Leave voters and that's how we win. But | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
the vote League Cup a, the official campaign, don't agree with you. They | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
don't think it's a score draw on economics. They think they are | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
winning the economic argument. And on the case of economic, if you look | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
at the polling, on the economic case the Remain people are winning by a | :24:56. | :25:01. | |
substantial amount, and they think that you and others, buying on about | :25:02. | :25:07. | |
immigration, it consolidates your core but it doesn't reach out to the | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
wider British public who, by and large, have come to terms with | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
immigration. And they are wrong. They back row wrong. All the polling | :25:16. | :25:18. | |
of the undecided shows that by a massive factor immigration, | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
controlling our borders, is the factor that would swing undecided | :25:23. | :25:25. | |
voters one way or the other. However, we have moved on. The | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
number of genuinely undecided voters now is quite small. It's changed a | :25:31. | :25:36. | |
lot. How do we know that? Consistent polling. Some polls show it at 5%, | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
some at 18%. But whatever, many undecideds won't vote. Maybe it is | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
12 or 13%. It isn't a massive number. This referendum now gets won | :25:49. | :25:56. | |
on turnout, gets won on passion, and the advantage that Leave has over | :25:57. | :25:59. | |
Remain is that the people who have made their minds up to leave | :26:00. | :26:02. | |
generally feel it quite passionately, and we have to | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
mobilise. If we get every person in this country who says they want to | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
leave and the big hook for nearly all of them, or the majority of | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
them, is the immigration argument, we make that point, we mobilise them | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
to vote, we win this referendum. You, Toby Young, are part of the | :26:21. | :26:23. | |
Leave campaign. You want us to leave the European Union. What do you | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
think of Nigel Farage's approach and how do you think the campaign is | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
going from your point of view so far? On the one hand, I share some | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
of the concerns you just flagged up, which is that people who are | :26:38. | :26:40. | |
concerned about the immigration and security risks that come from | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
freedom of movement and the enlargement of the EU are probably | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
already going to vote Leave and that the vote leave campaign should be | :26:50. | :26:52. | |
focusing on alleviating the anxiety about the economic risks that have | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
been whisked up by the campaign. But I think Nigel has a point. The | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
number of don't knows are shrinking and I also think that the outcome, | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
the result, will in the large part hinge on how great the turnout is | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
and if you can mobilise the levers, and I think the leave is generally | :27:10. | :27:12. | |
are more passionate and care more about this issue than the | :27:13. | :27:15. | |
remainders, that is one way to win and this is an issue that they care | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
deeply about. Are you Leave or Remain? I think the idea of the | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
right wing debating how leaving Europe could solve problems created | :27:26. | :27:28. | |
by the right wing is frankly laughable. Before you get into that, | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
are you Leave or Remain? On that basis, I am Remain because the | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
problem is that you want to fix are caused by right-wing policies. It's | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
not migration that has caused a drain on access to resources and | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
jobs. Its austerity. It's the Conservative policies that have | :27:49. | :27:50. | |
diminished trade and growth and production and the British economy, | :27:51. | :27:56. | |
not migration and not the EU. So the problems you are seeking to fix are | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
not EU problems. They are right wing austerity problems. Just come back | :28:01. | :28:06. | |
on the austerities point, the IMS calculator that over the five-year | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
term of the Coalition they save 36 billion from austerity measures. | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
That is less than even our net contribution to the EU in the same | :28:15. | :28:17. | |
period. So to blame our problems austerity is nonsensical. To say | :28:18. | :28:25. | |
that people aren't worried about stagnating jobs and wages is... | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
Statistic after statistic has shown that migrants are not a dream at any | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
of those things. They do say that for the average worker their real | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
income has declined by ten percentage 2008 and that is because | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
we have oversupply in the labour market in this country. I take issue | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
with you on one thing. I doubt that the case for or against Brexit has | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
anything to do with left or right wing politics. It a basic question | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
of democracy, of sovereignty, of controlling our borders, putting our | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
own people first. And there are many millions of Labour voters who are | :28:59. | :29:01. | |
attracted to that message. All right. We need to move on. | :29:02. | :29:04. | |
Now, while we've got Nigel Farage here - | :29:05. | :29:06. | |
or should that be Nigel "Farridge" - we can't let him go | :29:07. | :29:09. | |
without attempting to answer one of the burning questions | :29:10. | :29:11. | |
Have a listen to this from Prime Minister's Questions on Wednesday. | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
With the United Kingdom facing our most momentous decision | :29:17. | :29:18. | |
for a generation in eight weeks' time, does the Prime Minister think | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
it makes more sense for us to listen to all of our closest friends | :29:23. | :29:25. | |
and allies around the world or to a combination of French | :29:26. | :29:28. | |
fascists, Nigel "Farridge" and Vladimir Putin? | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
Well, I'm glad he takes the English pronunciation of "Farridge", | :29:33. | :29:39. | |
rather than the poncey foreign-sounding one | :29:40. | :29:41. | |
I think that's a thoroughly good thing. | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
And is one as English as John Bull, warm beer and county cricket? | :29:48. | :29:53. | |
And is the other as foreign and, as the PM would say "poncey", | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
as croissants, capuccinos and kissing on both cheeks? | :29:59. | :30:00. | |
Well, who better to give us the definitive answer than the head | :30:01. | :30:03. | |
of pronunciations for the Oxford English Dictionary, | :30:04. | :30:05. | |
Over to you Dr Sangster. How does this play out? What is the correct | :30:06. | :30:24. | |
pronounceation? We don't normally put surnames and first names in the | :30:25. | :30:31. | |
dictionary unless a noun or a verb. So sadly, Farage is not in the | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
dictionary. But I would say if it is your name, | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
you can say it how you like. There are lots of word from English from | :30:41. | :30:52. | |
the French that end in age. Some saying"age" like village. You can | :30:53. | :31:01. | |
say barrage, balloon, or gashage, I think that Nigel used that example | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
himself in his own defence. Is the English equivalent of | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
"Farage", "Farridge"? Is there a connection? If there is a D in the | :31:11. | :31:18. | |
spelling, then yes. But surnames are funny things. They | :31:19. | :31:27. | |
don't always behave like words. They often, the pronounceations can lag | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
behind. The other thing that is worth saying | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
about surnames, there are lots of British surnames with two | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
pronounceations. Norman Lamont was an example. | :31:41. | :31:47. | |
Relevant in this case. Most Scots, as you recognise, Andrew, would say | :31:48. | :31:56. | |
Lamont. He used to say that but then after, | :31:57. | :32:03. | |
he used the French pronounceation. . Stress shifting in names is fairly | :32:04. | :32:10. | |
predictable. There is nothing especially foreign about it. | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
Where does Farage come from? I have no idea. Perhaps Nigel does. It was | :32:15. | :32:26. | |
originally a Huguenot name. If you look back, you can see that | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
generation after generation spellings of names change. There was | :32:31. | :32:38. | |
an Faridge going back. But at a wedding in East London this | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
particular spelling arrived and Prime Minister, who is Home Counties | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
educated, who went to Eton. Did he really? Do you think that | :32:48. | :32:54. | |
David Cameron parks his car in a gashage? I don't think so. People | :32:55. | :33:01. | |
from Bolton do. They call me "Farridge" and people from Oxford | :33:02. | :33:07. | |
generally call me "Farage". How do you pronounce it? "Farage". | :33:08. | :33:18. | |
I say "Farage". As I would say" garage." Thank you | :33:19. | :33:24. | |
for talking about the F word it is wonderful! The finest. | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
Dr Sangster, thank you very much for joining us this morning. Good to | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
talk with you. Thank you. And thank you, "Farage"! | :33:35. | :33:37. | |
Now did Barack Obama's attention-grabbing plea | :33:38. | :33:38. | |
for the UK to vote to stay in the European Union | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
The US president's visit was seen as a potentially decisive boost | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
to the 'in' campaign, although polls since - | :33:46. | :33:47. | |
which are still too close to call - haven't shown any rise in those | :33:48. | :33:50. | |
planning to vote to remain a member on June 23rd. | :33:51. | :33:53. | |
At the heart of President Obama's argument was trade - | :33:54. | :33:55. | |
he said if the UK left the EU it would go "to the back | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
of the queue" in getting a trade deal with America. | :34:00. | :34:01. | |
He said that voting to leave would not be in Britain's economic | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
interests given that 44% of our exports go to the EU - | :34:07. | :34:08. | |
And he said that the UK strengthens both its own - | :34:09. | :34:20. | |
and the United States' - security and prosperity | :34:21. | :34:22. | |
His comments didn't exactly go down well with leave campaigners. | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
Boris Johnson said it was "ridiculous" that Barack Obama | :34:29. | :34:31. | |
would seek to "bully" the UK in this way. | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
He also courted controversy by drawing attention | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
Nigel Farage said the President would be out of office by the time | :34:41. | :34:46. | |
Britain had left the EU, and said we should be wary | :34:47. | :34:49. | |
of following foreign policy advice from the US after the Iraq war. | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
Justice Minister Dominic Raab accused the President | :34:55. | :34:56. | |
of being "hypocritical" because he would never | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
dream of opening the US border with Mexico. | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
And Liam Fox said President Obama was now "largely irrelevant" | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
and was merely parroting lines given to him by Downing Street. | :35:09. | :35:15. | |
Well to discuss this we're joined now by Kurt Volker. | :35:16. | :35:18. | |
He's a former US ambassador to Nato, he now heads a think-tank | :35:19. | :35:21. | |
founded by the Republican senator John McCain, | :35:22. | :35:24. | |
and he's in London taking part in a US-European Forum | :35:25. | :35:27. | |
organised by the Centre for European Reform. | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
Welcome to the programme. . Thank you. | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
What do you make of the bold point, we will listen to you, whether you | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
open the bored tore Mexico? That is scoring points. You get a point | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
coming in, you push back. That is what political dialogue and debate | :35:48. | :35:50. | |
is about. What I would have said, I think that | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
President Obama would have been wiser to make two points: The UK is | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
a better, I'm sorry, the EU is a better partner for the US with the | :36:00. | :36:06. | |
United Kingdom in it. That works well for us. | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
And the EU would probably be more outward looking with the UK in it. | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
That is a US interest. It is perfectly legitimate for a US | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
President to express its interest. When it crosses the line to define | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
for British voters, what the interest is, that is where you hear | :36:28. | :36:31. | |
a backlash. That is what we got from Boris Johnson and others. | :36:32. | :36:37. | |
And it is in America's interest. The reason is that if we leave the EU, | :36:38. | :36:44. | |
the dominant form policy pure power in the EU becomes France. | :36:45. | :36:52. | |
Overall France because diplomatically and militarily, | :36:53. | :36:54. | |
Germany does not play to its strength. That is not in America's | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
interest. That is the reason. The other thing he could have said | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
as well. I think we must be wary of scaremongering. But while if the UK | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
leaves the EU that America will no longer be a close ally and partner | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
to the UK, I don't think anyone should say that. There is such | :37:16. | :37:18. | |
goodwill in the United States, we will work it out it is really for | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
the UK to define. Then many could not understand why | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
the President said what he said. If you look at the extent of the | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
intelligence sharing, you know better than me the military | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
co-operation between the two countries, they are linked at the | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
hip, especially on the military and the intelligence front. So why stick | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
that on to the statement? Well, exactly. The NATO membership all of | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
that prove dates membership to the EU. It would be the same either way. | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
Our guests made a good point earlier on. Most of the things that affect | :37:58. | :38:03. | |
how this will play out or the political decisions that the UK | :38:04. | :38:06. | |
makes about governing itself, whether it is in the EU or not. | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
These things can go both ways in both circumstances. | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
I was looking through the websites of the US trade representative, if | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
we were to go to the back of the queue on a trade deal, if we were to | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
leave, who is ahead of us in the queue? It's a good question. It | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
would not stay there very long. If you look at the amount of US and | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
British cross-investment and the trade... We are the biggest | :38:33. | :38:36. | |
investors in America, and you are in Britain? Exactly. It would be a huge | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
business pressure to ensure nothing changes. | :38:42. | :38:44. | |
Is it not right to say that there is no queue? The only negotiation I can | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
see that the US is in is the negotiation with the EU? All other | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
bilateral trade talks have been suspended or got nowhere? There are | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
some. Which ones? The trance Pacific | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
partnership is a big one. But that is waiting to be confirmed | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
by Congress. We will see if the President can get that through | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
before, I mean our man said he would try to shove that through in the | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
lame duck period between the November election and the new | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
President being sworn in. Good luck. That is a done deal in terms of the | :39:20. | :39:27. | |
negotiations? That is not a matter for the democratic process. Who else | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
is ahead of us? I don't want to challenge on TTP. The way that | :39:33. | :39:37. | |
domestic politics played out in the US election campaign, all of the | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
candidates are against it. Even if the President chooses to push it | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
forward, anyone coming into office, even if they wish to see it | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
ratified, they will push for changes before they do so. | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
If Britain were to vote to leave, by the time it comes round to thinking | :39:56. | :40:01. | |
of a bilateral trade deal, this could be no more? The I and US | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
negotiations have been stumbling for some time. They met in New York this | :40:06. | :40:11. | |
week. There is no sense of progress. There is even talk, the European | :40:12. | :40:14. | |
Commissioner for trade saying that we will not get this done before | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
President Obama steps down next January. In which case it will be | :40:19. | :40:24. | |
nothing to do with Barack Obama. There will be a new President and | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
Congress. More isolation as Congress as well? It is unknowable at this | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
point. Anything can happen in the presidential election. That will | :40:34. | :40:36. | |
have major consequences for the House and the senate elections at | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
the same time it is really hard to know what will happen. In terms of | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
the transatlantic trade deal, though, you are right. Nothing will | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
happen in the current US administration. If something is to | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
happen in the next one, it will have to be shaped by the new President. | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
I mean, looking at the things that Britain has to do as a member of the | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
EU, we negotiate trade deals through the EU now. We have open borders | :41:03. | :41:09. | |
with the rest of the EU. We pull our sovereignty with these countries. | :41:10. | :41:14. | |
They may be good or bad things, that is for the people of Britain to | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
judge it on June the 23rd. A lot is simply a price you pay for being a | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
member. That is decision we now have to take. But would America agree to | :41:24. | :41:30. | |
any of that? We are unique. We go in for a trade deal... We go in for a | :41:31. | :41:37. | |
trade deal that is comprehensive. Thankser is a good one. It is a free | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
trade deal with Canada and Mexico. Two different economies. It has been | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
great for the United States. So you would not, is the answer. You | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
would not agree for America what you expect Britain to continue to have | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
with the EU? I would it the other way around. The US is generous in | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
terms of the way it deals with sovereignty issues, the UK is | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
already a member of the EU, so it is asking itself a different question, | :42:06. | :42:11. | |
is it better off in or out? Again that is something only the British | :42:12. | :42:14. | |
voters can make a choice about. One of the arguments of those who | :42:15. | :42:20. | |
vote to leave, is our special relationship with the United States, | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
is our role in NATO, we are the second most important power in NATO, | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
we have the best intelligence services in NATO other than the | :42:30. | :42:32. | |
United States, and we all take that for granted but when you look at the | :42:33. | :42:38. | |
rise of Donald Trump and his attitudes to NATO and to Europe, | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
maybe we can't take that for granted now? There is a high degree of | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
frustration in the US about the European levels of defence spending | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
overall and the perception that we are doing more for European defence | :42:52. | :42:57. | |
than Europe itself and should we continue doing that? If the | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
Europeans don't do it, why should we? So the frustration comes not | :43:02. | :43:11. | |
only from Donald Trump but Bob Gates, when leading the Secretary Of | :43:12. | :43:16. | |
Defense, giving a speech, talking of how the expenditure Rose from 50 to | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
75% after a ten-year period. And you have bigger fish to fry in | :43:22. | :43:27. | |
the Pacific? Yes. There is a question why can't Europe take care | :43:28. | :43:31. | |
of themselves, they are wealthy, rich, they are democracies. That is | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
what Donald Trump is playing to. It is not defined policy. He is | :43:36. | :43:38. | |
literally playing to people's emotions. | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
Or even making it up as he goes along? Indeed. | :43:43. | :43:50. | |
One of the reasons that the back of the queue comment was inappropriate | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
and offensive is that we are the only member of NATO that meets the | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
defence spending obligations. But can I ask, do we need a bilateral | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
trade agreement with the US if leaving the EU? We don't have one at | :44:03. | :44:08. | |
the moment, yet we sell about ?35 billion worth of goods and services | :44:09. | :44:14. | |
in America, and each year they sell roughly the same amount. Would it be | :44:15. | :44:21. | |
catastrophic if it did take 10 to 15 years to regulate the rules? | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
Businesses need to know the rules. With the UK out of the EU, | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
businesses want to know what is the basis of on we are trading? But the | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
US does not have an agreement with the US. | :44:36. | :44:41. | |
-- the UK. We do have substantial rules in | :44:42. | :44:48. | |
place with the EU on trade, investment, data privacy, legal | :44:49. | :44:50. | |
protections and intellectual property. A whole reservoir of | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
things ironed out with the EU. We don't know how many have come | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
here from America as we are inside the EU? It is a combination. It is | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
the story of the relationship and the great business relationship with | :45:06. | :45:08. | |
the UK. As President Obama's intervention | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
been helpful? We are talking about two different things. Countries | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
bristle when outsiders come in and tell them stuff. That is | :45:17. | :45:19. | |
understandable. But there is something going on. The back of the | :45:20. | :45:24. | |
queue was about economics. We are not talking about security | :45:25. | :45:27. | |
arrangements and from what security officials have said it is clear it | :45:28. | :45:34. | |
is not either or. It is both. We need both to do effective security. | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
I don't really see what that has to do with Obama as back of the queue | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
comments about trade? The case was given we are close on military and | :45:46. | :45:51. | |
security matters... That if we are good friends... James Clapper, the | :45:52. | :45:58. | |
director of national intelligence, he is worried that there are | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
intelligence consequences from the free movement of peoples inside of | :46:02. | :46:03. | |
the European Union? Absolutely. One of the things that is the US a | :46:04. | :46:12. | |
lot of pause right now is the unchecked migration crisis affecting | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
the EU, where you have a lot of people from Syria and the Arab | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
world, Afghanistan, coming in, forming large, an integrated | :46:21. | :46:26. | |
communities -- un-integrated communities that are connected to | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
existing nonintegrated immigrant communities in places like France or | :46:31. | :46:33. | |
Germany or the Netherlands, many of whom have EU passports, so that they | :46:34. | :46:41. | |
are able to come to the US. So we are having to rethink, how do we | :46:42. | :46:44. | |
screen a potential terrorists or radicalised persons who may be | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
coming in as immigrants - that's one thing. You may be citizens of EU | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
countries, who have been radicalised by some of this change in | :46:54. | :47:01. | |
immigration. So if we were not only EU it might be more difficult for | :47:02. | :47:04. | |
British is to get to America? Not all British tourists but we're going | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
to have to have a look at what the rules are. So Remain has got | :47:09. | :47:14. | |
President Obama and you have got dream the pen. There's a pretty even | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
Stevens? -- Marine Le Pen. I don't think you can always choose your | :47:21. | :47:28. | |
allies. A minute ago UL busting Corbyn for his eyes but your allies | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
are fine! -- you were lamb busting Corbyn. If Ted Cruz doesn't win the | :47:34. | :47:41. | |
Indiana primary next week, does Donald Trump get enough votes for | :47:42. | :47:49. | |
Cleveland? If he wins Indiana, the presumption is that he is also going | :47:50. | :47:55. | |
to win California because the accommodation will get him over. So | :47:56. | :47:58. | |
he could well now be... I think it is very likely you will be. And Mrs | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
Clinton is almost certainly be Democratic nomination. Does she beat | :48:03. | :48:12. | |
Mr Trump? To early to say. I think in every poll that we look at today | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
she would clearly defeat him but that has been the case with Donald | :48:18. | :48:20. | |
Trump this entire campaign. Everyone says he can't win and he keeps | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
winning. Well, we, being totally impartial at the BBC, hope that it | :48:26. | :48:31. | |
is a contested convention in Cleveland because it is just such a | :48:32. | :48:33. | |
good story. Thank you very much. Now, among the smorgasbord - do you | :48:34. | :48:49. | |
like that? - of elections being held around the country next Thursday - | :48:50. | :48:51. | |
that means there's a lot of them... Voters in England and Wales will be | :48:52. | :48:54. | |
choosing their Police As long as you're not | :48:55. | :48:57. | |
in London or in Manchester, where the role is | :48:58. | :49:00. | |
taken by the Mayor. These commissioners are intended | :49:01. | :49:02. | |
to be the voice of the people to hold police forces to account, | :49:03. | :49:05. | |
but have they been a success? Here's our very own police | :49:06. | :49:08. | |
cadet, Ellie Price. They | :49:09. | :49:09. | |
are your democratically elected Police and Crime Commissioners | :49:10. | :49:17. | |
and you're going to vote You see, operation PCC hit a bit | :49:18. | :49:19. | |
of an early snag when not many The 2012 election saw the lowest | :49:20. | :49:26. | |
turnout in British electoral I think the voters made it slightly | :49:27. | :49:39. | |
easy for your staff on the basis that the numbers didn't make it too | :49:40. | :49:50. | |
arduous task to actually count. This new role gave PCCs the power | :49:51. | :49:57. | |
to set police budgets and to hire So, good idea or waste | :49:58. | :50:01. | |
of police time? I think we've seen Police | :50:02. | :50:06. | |
and Crime Commissioners trying out I think they've been more | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
accessible, more visible, than the old police | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
authorities were. And I think they've held the police | :50:17. | :50:17. | |
to account much more So broadly, I don't think that PCCs | :50:18. | :50:22. | |
have been the kind of disaster that It's a new role that's | :50:23. | :50:28. | |
being invented by the government The main reason the role | :50:29. | :50:36. | |
was invented was, said the Tories in their 2010 manifesto, | :50:37. | :50:41. | |
to give people more of a say about how policing | :50:42. | :50:43. | |
in their area was run. But four years on, it's fair | :50:44. | :50:46. | |
to say the idea hasn't Do you know who your Police | :50:47. | :50:48. | |
and Crime Commissioner is? Do you know who your Police | :50:49. | :50:52. | |
and Crime Commissioners are? You've got to vote for them | :50:53. | :51:00. | |
next week. It's already come and I haven't got | :51:01. | :51:03. | |
a clue who they are. The point of it was to make policing | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
more accountable, so... Well, I think Police | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
and Crime Commissioners I think we'll see an expansion | :51:13. | :51:15. | |
of their role, so we're already seeing fire and rescue coming under | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
the remit of Police and Crime Commissioners and I think | :51:20. | :51:22. | |
we might even start to see some things like bits of the prison | :51:23. | :51:25. | |
estate, bits of probation, coming under the remit of Police | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
and Crime Commissioners as well. And I think that's | :51:30. | :51:31. | |
probably a good thing. Next week, 40 Police | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
and Crime Commissioners around This time round, they may end | :51:36. | :51:37. | |
up with more powers - and they may even end up | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
with more voters. And we're joined in the studio now | :51:42. | :51:49. | |
by Gordon Wasserman - he's a Conservative peer and has | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
been described as the architect of the police and crime | :51:56. | :51:58. | |
commissioner policy - and by Bella Sankey | :51:59. | :51:59. | |
from the campaign group Liberty. Bella, let me come to you first. Has | :52:00. | :52:10. | |
this been a worthwhile innovation or waste of time? I think it's been a | :52:11. | :52:13. | |
huge waste of time, effort and money. There was never any evidence | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
that the police authorities which previously were the body charged | :52:18. | :52:20. | |
with holding blues to account locally were doing a bad job or that | :52:21. | :52:23. | |
the public weren't pleased with the work they were doing. There was an | :52:24. | :52:27. | |
element of democracy in that model but they were also independent | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
people drawn from the community, that would genuinely representative | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
of the community. The idea was that these Police and Crime Commissioners | :52:37. | :52:38. | |
would be visible. They certainly have been visible but on so many | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
occasions, in a really bad way. We think that has undermined, rather | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
than increased, the legitimacy and credibility of police | :52:48. | :52:50. | |
accountability. What do you say to that? I would say I think it's been | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
a great successful stopped I think that police are to the community. I | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
think there is a much more holistic approach taken to crime prevention | :53:00. | :53:02. | |
and community safety, rather than simply having police and crime and | :53:03. | :53:08. | |
they look beyond the police. I think there's been much more innovation in | :53:09. | :53:11. | |
individual forces, rather than waiting for the Home Office to send | :53:12. | :53:19. | |
out Mermoz. I think on the whole, it's been better value for money, | :53:20. | :53:22. | |
mainly because the direction of policing is at the local level and | :53:23. | :53:29. | |
local policing is a local service. Not the NCA and serious organised | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
crime - that's national. But local policing, safety of our communities. | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
No one has said it is not a local issue but the point is, there was a | :53:39. | :53:41. | |
local model and structure that worked incredibly well. Were you | :53:42. | :53:44. | |
happy with that model? A lot of people were... I'm not arguing that | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
what's replaced it is any better. One of the constant complaints we | :53:50. | :53:54. | |
hear, if you read over the past ten years, is how the police on many | :53:55. | :53:59. | |
occasions were not held to account in an independent way, which is why, | :54:00. | :54:03. | |
for many people, trust and confidence of the police has gone | :54:04. | :54:08. | |
down. Absolutely. We have huge concerns about instances where the | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
police have been properly held to account -- haven't been. But the | :54:14. | :54:16. | |
answer to that is to have an independent body. At the moment, the | :54:17. | :54:19. | |
police really deal with complaints that are brought against them and I | :54:20. | :54:26. | |
think, as it is widely viewed, the IPCC, the body charged with looking | :54:27. | :54:29. | |
at the more serious complaints, has been performing as it should, so | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
there are definitely problems. There was a lot of reform that could | :54:34. | :54:36. | |
improve that but the PCC model hasn't solved this problem is, it's | :54:37. | :54:41. | |
just created more. Could you give a substantive example of where what is | :54:42. | :54:43. | |
happening now is a clear improvement on what happened before? I really | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
think that Hillsborough is a very good example. The events wouldn't | :54:48. | :54:53. | |
have changed but those are operational police mistakes, done | :54:54. | :54:55. | |
under the pressure of the day. The planning was no good and so on. The | :54:56. | :55:00. | |
actual cover-up, I believe, would never have happened if the Police | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
Commissioner had been there and would have been inundated, | :55:05. | :55:07. | |
overwhelmed, by witnesses, by family, by social media, and you | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
would have had to act to get to the truth in a much more the direct | :55:13. | :55:19. | |
sway. -- vigorous way. It seemed to go along with the police. They | :55:20. | :55:28. | |
inevitably... Did the PCCs coming are was in Sheffield but of a | :55:29. | :55:34. | |
watershed, or Hillsborough, in that it was the Police and Crime | :55:35. | :55:36. | |
Commissioner who removed the chief of police in South Yorkshire after | :55:37. | :55:42. | |
what has happened? All of the powers that PCC is currently have were | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
available to police authorities. The point was that they didn't use them. | :55:47. | :55:51. | |
I think it's a huge stretch and potentially quite a dangerous thing | :55:52. | :55:57. | |
to say that PCCs would have prevented Hillsborough cover-up. | :55:58. | :56:00. | |
This model is one that was imported from the US, where corruption | :56:01. | :56:02. | |
between police and the sheriffs that they have over their, their version | :56:03. | :56:09. | |
of the PCC plea roll, is endemic. I simply don't accept that. I worked | :56:10. | :56:17. | |
as a chief of staff for the third of the police department after I left | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
the Home Office, I was in the NYPD. It's simply not. Of course there is | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
corruption. There is corruption in individual police forces in this | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
country. I'm not denying it. But it seems to me that a Police and Crime | :56:31. | :56:34. | |
Commissioner who is a public figure, who is standing for election, will | :56:35. | :56:41. | |
have to act on the kind of complaints, rather than people | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
standing a police authority and there was a tendency to go along | :56:46. | :56:48. | |
with it. Rachel, should we scrap them build on? I think the | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
accountability issue is really important. The abuse that we have | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
seen in the past... They work for us but sometimes they have abused that. | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
I'm interested in, what kind of model might avoid this sort of | :57:04. | :57:05. | |
cover-up that happened at Hillsborough quest Bob briefly | :57:06. | :57:08. | |
because we are coming to the close and only to get to be in. What would | :57:09. | :57:18. | |
be better than what we have now quest Bob you could have a local | :57:19. | :57:21. | |
model that was similar to the one before. The key thing about | :57:22. | :57:23. | |
Hillsborough is that the police need to be accountable to the rule of | :57:24. | :57:27. | |
law. They need to act lawfully and do their jobs and you do that | :57:28. | :57:30. | |
through the court system. The Human Rights Act, which we now have the | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
statute book that we didn't have during Hillsborough has achieved | :57:35. | :57:36. | |
this inquest and that's how you get the kind of lesson learning, the | :57:37. | :57:39. | |
investigation and things been put right. Toby Young, final word? I'm | :57:40. | :57:45. | |
in favour of it for dogmatic reasons about you can say that because so | :57:46. | :57:48. | |
few people actually know the name of their Police Commissioner on you | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
that they had about is a reason to do away with it. After all, not many | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
people know the names of their MPs and a large percentage of the | :57:56. | :57:58. | |
population don't actually vote in general elections. Are you voting | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
for yours? Oh, no, you're in London, so you don't a vote. Thank you. | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz. | :58:08. | :58:11. | |
According to George Osborne, speaking at a dinner last night, | :58:12. | :58:14. | |
who appears on a watch owned by Boris Johnson? | :58:15. | :58:16. | |
So, Rachel and Toby, what's the correct answer? | :58:17. | :58:23. | |
I'm going to go with Mickey Mouse. Yeah. You're both wrong. It was Che | :58:24. | :58:29. | |
Guevara. It was said that they execute people with the Che Guevara | :58:30. | :58:34. | |
on their watch and George Osborne was disappointed to find that it was | :58:35. | :58:35. | |
only a joke. I'll be back on Sunday at 11am | :58:36. | :58:37. | |
on BBC One with the Sunday Politics, when we'll be talking | :58:38. | :58:43. | |
about next week's elections | :58:44. | :58:47. |