Browse content similar to 13/06/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:37. | :00:38. | |
The Remain Campaign wheel out the big guns, clearing the desks | :00:39. | :00:41. | |
for a set-piece speech from Gordon Brown as they attempt | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
to shore up Labour support for staying in the EU. | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
The Leave Campaign focuses on claims that officials have been | :00:50. | :00:51. | |
considering granting visa-free travel to the UK for Turkish | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
citizens, with one Cabinet minister Priti Patel suggesting 100,000 extra | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
migrants will come to the UK if Turkey joins the EU. | :01:01. | :01:06. | |
MPs insist the former boss of BHS Sir Philip Green must answer | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
questions in parliament about his role in the | :01:11. | :01:11. | |
We'll hear from select committee chairman Frank Field. | :01:12. | :01:18. | |
And if you're fed up with blue-on-blue arguments | :01:19. | :01:20. | |
over the EU referendum, stay tuned for a bit | :01:21. | :01:22. | |
of green-on-green, as we hear the green party arguments | :01:23. | :01:24. | |
And with us for the whole of the programme today, | :01:25. | :01:38. | |
the former chair of the Public Accounts Committee, | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
the Labour MP and Remain supporter Margaret Hodge, | :01:42. | :01:43. | |
of the Public Administration Committee, the Conservative MP | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
So, less than two weeks to go before referendum day | :01:47. | :01:56. | |
and the two campaigns are pulling out all the stops. | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
The Leave campaign is focusing on immigration and the possibility | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
of visa-free travel for Turkish citizens, | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
while the Remain campaign are handing Gordon Brown | :02:08. | :02:09. | |
the spotlight in an attempt to shore-up Labour voter support | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
We'll discuss immigration in a moment. | :02:13. | :02:19. | |
look at what the former Labour Prime Minister | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
Gordon Brown is making a speech this afternoon, | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
a vote to remain would allow the UK to champion five key policies | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
when it assumes the presidency of the EU in 2017. | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
The former PM says there could be EU-wide reforms that | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
resulted in 500,000 new jobs in the UK | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
He says a UK EU presidency could also improve living standards | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
through energy price cuts and action on environmental policy, | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
and that an EU strategy could be pursued to crack down | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
Mr Brown says workers on zero-hours contracts could have protections | :02:58. | :03:05. | |
and that greater co-operation on cross-border policy could help | :03:06. | :03:12. | |
relieve pressure on public services in areas with high levels | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
Speaking this morning, the leader of the Labour In For Britain | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
campaign, Alan Johnson, insisted Labour was fully behind | :03:23. | :03:24. | |
We have struggled to get into the media and I don't | :03:25. | :03:33. | |
A story of unity is less interesting than a story of disunity and Cabinet | :03:34. | :03:40. | |
colleagues knocking seven bells out of each other. | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
And we've struggled, frankly, to break into that blue-on-blue. | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
As I mentioned, we've been making this positive case for Europe | :03:49. | :03:50. | |
We haven't had the kind of coverage and a Loughborough University study | :03:51. | :03:57. | |
shows starkly that Labour representation in the media, 4-6%? | :03:58. | :04:06. | |
That was Alan Johnson. Why has it taken so long for the Labour Party | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
to realise that many of its core supporters particularly in northern | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
constituencies are either voting to leave the EU or will stay at home? I | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
think there's always been concerned about immigration, and what I'm | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
distressed about and I hope Bernard can come back on it, I'm up for a | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
conversation on immigration, I've been open to it for the last ten | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
years or so. But what I do object to is that this referendum on Europe is | :04:33. | :04:39. | |
being turned into a referendum on immigration and I think what you are | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
seeing is that I'm afraid of those people who want us to withdraw from | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
Europe are grasping at this straw, a really important issue to my | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
constituents, and people up and down the country, and trying to turn that | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
into the main issue. But you do admit... The one thing I was going | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
to say, Bernard, I hate false promises. I just hate it. People out | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
there alone with it and that's why people are moving away from politics | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
and distrusting politicians and this false promise you're somehow going | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
to magically cut through issues on migration when they get out of | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
Europe is simply a false promise. Answer that first but what you say | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
to that? I don't think anybody saying there was a magic wand but | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
what we do know is you can't control migration from the EU unless you | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
leave the EU. David Cameron stood up in front of the Conservative | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
conference and said he was going to address that in Europe, he won't | :05:37. | :05:39. | |
take no for an answer and there was absolutely no reform on the freedom | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
of movement in the EU. The only way to address that is to Vote Leave. | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
The idea that this is some kind of straw in the wind and irrelevant to | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
the debate, this referendum is about who governs and the fact is, the | :05:55. | :05:57. | |
British government and the British Parliament cannot govern our borders | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
with regard to European migration. I'm going to stop you there. We are | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
going to talk about immigration in a moment but you set out your stores | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
on this issue of immigration which we will deal with in a few minutes. | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
Gordon Brown is promising many things. We just outlined them, jobs, | :06:13. | :06:19. | |
cutting energy prices. He's not in a position to promise anything. He's a | :06:20. | :06:22. | |
former Prime Minister and we don't have a Labour government. What will | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
his intervention be? Here's someone who has a lot of credibility on the | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
international stage and what he did in the 2008 economic shock was | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
absolutely stunningly wonderful in working with international | :06:37. | :06:38. | |
colleagues, and he is setting out a positive agenda. I go to my | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
constituents every week and I held coffee afternoons in a ward by ward | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
bases and when the campaign started, they were quite interested. Last | :06:49. | :06:51. | |
week, when I said we should talk about Europe, everybody says, oh no, | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
and they want to talk about local issues. I think they have been | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
turned off by the negativity, the false promises, the exaggeration on | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
both sides and what Gordon is trying to do today is that a positive | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
agenda of how we can use Europe to tackle some of the very tricky | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
things. Here's a politician and can make statements and hopefully those | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
us who leave will then grasp the opportunity to change the world in | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
the way he has done. I think infrastructure and develop it is | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
really important. I think getting a European wide response to the | :07:30. | :07:31. | |
pressures that come from migration is important for size think working | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
on the environment is hugely important. Do you accept that Labour | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
has not been very present in this campaign in terms of the Remain | :07:42. | :07:49. | |
side? Whose fault is that? Yes, it's partly our fault and it's partly the | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
focus has been on the blue split. If this is the week in which we are now | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
focusing on the Labour Party coming forward, setting a positive agenda, | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
thank goodness. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonald could have | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
done more? I think they could have come out early and do more but they | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
are out now and other people are out there, Alan Johnson, at last, some | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
women out there. There's been hardly any women in this campaign the | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
Cooper, Harriet Harman, talking about the benefits of Europe. And | :08:19. | :08:26. | |
the danger which could occur, the risks we could take if we vote | :08:27. | :08:33. | |
Brexit. One Labour MP said to me in her constituency, a northern | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
constituency with white working-class supporters, they've | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
not had a Labour message, they don't know what it is and when they hear | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
it, they don't like it. Out come back to this game. I think what has | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
happened now, I'm sorry, Bernard, that's my view, in desperation, too | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
many people have outrageously exploited the very complex issue of | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
immigration with a simplistic answer, get out of Europe, and | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
suddenly all the challenges we face around immigration, that is just not | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
true. Let's have a series discussion about immigration. When I talk to my | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
constituents, and I say to them, but is a false prospectus, they come | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
back to immigration and I can understand why, if you want to win | :09:16. | :09:18. | |
your vote for that what you do but I don't dig at a good way to do | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
politics and I don't like it. What about Gordon Brown, he did something | :09:24. | :09:26. | |
similar in the Scottish independence referendum and in the end, maybe | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
partly because of him, the people of Scotland voted to stay within the | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
union. How important is his intervention? David Cameron and | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
George Osborne only resorted Gordon Brown because they were desperate | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
and I think they are desperate now. There's blue on blue excuse, we | :09:46. | :09:48. | |
could have red on red, ask Frank Field what he's been saying about | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
immigration, they have been saying Labour MPs saying the same thing at | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
immigration as the rest of the other campaigners. The real problem the | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
Labour Party have is this a sensation amongst many colleagues | :10:02. | :10:04. | |
but you're not really representing your voters because they are the | :10:05. | :10:07. | |
people hit by this tide of very cheap labour coming in from Eastern | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
Europe which is completely unchecked for the why haven't wages gone up in | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
this recovery since 2008 banking crisis? Because there's an unlimited | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
supply of cheap labour and we've had masses of it. Answer that and then | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
we move on. We are much more united. Those Labour MPs. What about | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
supporters, Margaret Hodge? You'd not squared up to the issue of | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
immigration with them? I have been talking about immigration since the | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
BNP won 12 seats in Barking and Dagenham 2006. I think I understand | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
the issue as people feel it and I think what is so deeply unfair, | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
Bernard, you promise somehow that you will cut the numbers yet, | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
yesterday on the Andrew Marr show, Nigel Farage, where would you cut | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
the numbers? Will you allow families to come together? Will you stop the | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
Spanish and Portuguese nurses in my local hospital coming here? Of | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
course not. Will he 's top universities recruiting students | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
open air? Of course not. Will you kill a tourism industry? Of course | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
not. Stop making false promises and start addressing the issue. Let me | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
speak. People in my constituency feel the pressures of immigration | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
and school places, hospital places, start investing there. Let Bernard | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
answer for that what level would you like to see it coming down to? David | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
Cameron said we should not have EU migrants coming up the mess the job | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
to go to. That was one of his negotiation things. Most of them | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
have. Gordon Brown said British jobs for British workers. If it's 184,000 | :11:52. | :11:59. | |
against 88,000, in terms of migrants from within the EU and those from | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
outside, you would increase the ones who come from the outside which | :12:04. | :12:05. | |
means they would still be similar levels? It's not about deciding what | :12:06. | :12:12. | |
the immigration policy should be but this... Let me finish, this is about | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
making British members of Parliament accountable for what immigration | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
policy is decided instead of being imposed by the EU. Let's go on to | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
immigration and Turkey has loomed large over the referendum campaign. | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
Will the country ever join the European Union - and if it | :12:31. | :12:33. | |
did, what would that mean for immigration? | :12:34. | :12:34. | |
It is a debate that reared its head again yesterday, | :12:35. | :12:37. | |
with new revelations about what the repercussions | :12:38. | :12:38. | |
of the deal between the EU and Turkey over Syrian | :12:39. | :12:41. | |
Leaked documents from the UK Embassy in Turkey raised | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
the possibility of visa-free travel for "special passport holders" | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
That usually applies to civil servants and their family members. | :12:48. | :12:54. | |
The document was sent in response to the EU deal with Turkey allowing | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
visa-free travel to inside Europe's Schengen area, | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
of which the UK is not a member, in return for accepting | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond and Home Secretary Theresa May said | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
any suggestion of changes to the visa rules was | :13:14. | :13:15. | |
That didn't stop Justice Secretary and Leave campaigner Michael Gove | :13:16. | :13:23. | |
claiming yesterday that this was yet more evidence that the UK | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
was "actively working" towards Turkey's EU entry, | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
something the Prime Minister David Cameron dismissed | :13:32. | :13:33. | |
as a "complete red herring", saying there "is no prospect of | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
But Migration Watch today released estimates that if Turkey joined | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
the EU, then around 100,000 Turkish migrants could head to Britain | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
a year, with total net migration under those circumstances | :13:49. | :13:50. | |
And Alp Mehmet from Migration Watch joins us now. | :13:51. | :14:03. | |
Let's just put Turkey to one side for a moment. Your forecast for the | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
next 20 years is that net migration will be around 250,000, 60% of it | :14:09. | :14:15. | |
coming from the EU. That is of course lower than current levels of | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
migration, isn't it? It is and we are assuming that there will be some | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
impact from measures that are applied as we move ahead, but, | :14:25. | :14:33. | |
looking at what might happen in a low scenario and comparing that with | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
a high scenario, we have gone through the middle and said that it | :14:38. | :14:44. | |
will be around 265,000 net. That is the figure of fact that the Office | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
for National Statistics is also working on. The use that as their | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
high net migration scenario, so it's not so outlandish and that, | :14:57. | :15:04. | |
effectively, means it leads to around 500,000 people a year | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
additional to our population largely driven by migration. That's why it | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
needs to be addressed. It is 330,000 or around that and you | :15:15. | :15:24. | |
are talking about a significantly lower number. If Turkey does join | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
the EU over the next 20 years, let's say, your report suggests around | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
100,000 Turks would head to the UK every year. How do you calculate | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
that figure? We looked at what happened with remaining ins, with | :15:40. | :15:47. | |
Polish people, for example, where we made some forecasts in 2004. -- with | :15:48. | :16:00. | |
remaining in people. -- Romanian. We used the same methodology. Week | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
unpaid salary levels, the number of people already here, the Turkish | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
diaspora, according to the then Turkish Prime Minister, there are | :16:08. | :16:13. | |
around 400,000 who already. Taking these factors into account, we think | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
around 100,000 a year, once they are fully in, is not an unreasonable | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
figure. Alp Mehmet, thank you very much. Bernard Jenkin, David Cameron | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
has described Turkey as a red herring in this debate. Is he right? | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
He has flip-flopped on this. When he has been with the Turkish president, | :16:33. | :16:35. | |
he is saying how he is going to pave the way from Ankara to Brussels and | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
then he's saying, not until the year 3000. It's a bit difficult to note | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
it took it is government policy for Turkey to join the EU. It is but | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
Wendy of thing Turkey will join the EU in current circumstances? The | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
current assumption is that Turkey would join sometime in the 2020s and | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
the current restrictions on Turks would be lifted during the late | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
2020s. That doesn't seem unreasonable. Why did you put a | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
poster out saying Turkey is joining the EU? Because there is a process | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
which Turkey is already engaged with which is about joining the EU. But | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
saying Turkey is joining the EU sound like it will happen next week. | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
Are we going to have another referendum before Turkey joins the | :17:20. | :17:22. | |
EU if we stay in? This is the only referendum we are going to get. If | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
we don't want to be in an EU with Turkey, you have to Vote Leave. What | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
is the likelihood of Turkey joining the EU at all? Their first | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
application was made in 1987 and you would have to have the say so and | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
approval of the 28 member state of the European council and you know, | :17:39. | :17:41. | |
and everyone knows, that large number of those countries will never | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
agree to it. But it is the policy of the British Government for Turkey to | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
join the EU. But do you accept that people like France, Germany will | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
have access to? EU history is littered with assurances of things | :17:55. | :17:57. | |
that would blow the happen and there may happen. I remember John Major | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
saying he didn't think the single currency would ever happen and it | :18:03. | :18:05. | |
went ahead. So you do believe that Turkey, despite those criteria, you | :18:06. | :18:12. | |
think... It is the policy of the United Kingdom government that | :18:13. | :18:15. | |
Turkey should join the EU. Should the Remain campaign have just been a | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
bit more upfront about this? To say that, yes, this is the policy of the | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
British Government, David Cameron did say he wanted to pave the road | :18:24. | :18:26. | |
from Ankara to Brussels, and clearly there is work going on behind the | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
scenes, as, perhaps, there should be with the Foreign Office, rather than | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
trying to be done to didn't happen? This is Project Via. It is ironic | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
that the Leave campaign have been banging on and on... That wasn't my | :18:40. | :18:52. | |
question. This is Project Fear. You heard it from Bernard's mouthed. If | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
you don't want Turkey to join, vote to leave. This is Project Fear. Hang | :18:57. | :19:03. | |
on a minute, Bernard. Your key government ministers, the Prime | :19:04. | :19:06. | |
Minister, your Prime Minister, a Conservative Prime Minister, the | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
Home Secretary, your Home Secretary, a Conservative Home Secretary, the | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
Foreign Secretary... At Margaret Hodge, what is the answer to my | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
question in terms of being upfront? It is true that it is government | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
policy, it is also true that money is being spent on developing that | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
policy, whether it happens next year or not for 25 years. If you'd been | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
more upfront about that, do you think there would have been more | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
honesty on your side of the debate? No, because it is equally true that | :19:36. | :19:41. | |
it is taking so long to negotiate the terms of the Turkish entry into | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
Europe that it is so far down the line that by the time it happens, | :19:47. | :19:53. | |
Turkey will have changed so much as a community, and of course the whole | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
world will have got smaller. Your government completely underestimated | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
the forecast of migration. I agree with that. Margaret Hodge said that | :20:04. | :20:10. | |
was wrong and there would be a seven-year transition period and | :20:11. | :20:12. | |
that's only if all those hurdles were overcome. Is there going to be | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
another referendum? No, there isn't. You don't know. This is the only | :20:18. | :20:25. | |
referendum we've got. I would like Turkey to be in the European Union, | :20:26. | :20:28. | |
I just don't want to be in the European Union with Turkey. Why use | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
immigration, which is a very conflict issue, which you won't | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
control by getting out of Europe, why use that as the issue? Because | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
since the banking crisis, since the eurozone crisis, immigration has | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
rocketed from the European Union. It is out of control and your voters | :20:46. | :20:52. | |
think, who is accountable for this? Immigration is democracy, | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
immigration is the economy. It is said in their living standards, | :20:56. | :20:57. | |
their access to public services and you know that and your party has | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
abandoned your voters. That's why Ukip is in second place. I think | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
immigration is a hugely important issue, a very complexes should. I | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
think your pretence that you can control it by getting out of Europe | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
is dishonest. And I think the really important issue, which we haven't | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
thought about this morning on Europe, is what it will do two jobs, | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
what will do to growth, what will do to prosperity. Are on Home | :21:23. | :21:30. | |
Secretary, who is in favour of Remain, said, "It is harder to | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
control immigration as a member of the EU". What have you got to say to | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
that? Can I just ask, briefly, on that point, let's just put the | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
levels to one side because, in a way, you can't guarantee what the | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
levels would be, either. This is about how we decide our immigration | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
policy, who decides it. Let's talk about the point that Margaret just | :21:52. | :21:54. | |
raised about jobs, about the level of growth, some of which is down to | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
levels of migration and migrant workers here and the argument that | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
they contribute, many of them, to the economy and help to grow that | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
economy. What will happen if levels of migration were to go down, let's | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
say, to 80,000 a year? What would happen to the economy? What we are | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
talking about is a points -based immigration system, like we already | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
have for those coming from outside the EU. So why have we got more | :22:18. | :22:21. | |
people coming from outside the EU? If it is working so successfully, | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
why has it gone up. We have started to get them under control. I was | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
just going to say... Let Bernard answer my question. We can still | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
choose to admit the people we think are going to be good for our | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
economy. Has that worked? Not particularly well. It was introduced | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
by the last Labour government and we're trying to make it work better. | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
We could also introduce work permits for people coming from the EU, which | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
is what we used to have. They didn't require visas to come on holiday, | :22:52. | :22:54. | |
they could easily come here to study, but if they're going to stay | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
here to work, they had to have a work permit. Then you would be | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
crowding out people who have to look after their families here, who have | :23:02. | :23:04. | |
to pay housing costs here, who can't afford to take low-paid jobs. So you | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
would want higher levels of migration but from different parts | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
of the world? Not necessarily higher levels of migration but the point | :23:13. | :23:14. | |
is, we wouldn't have the downward pressure on wages. Even the chairman | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
of the Remain campaign said, if we leave the European Union... We | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
haven't heard from him again, have we? Wages will rise, he told the | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
Treasury Select Committee. On Turkey, Margaret Hodge, isn't the | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
problem that it is symbolic? That even if Turkey can't join now and | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
never joined in the foreseeable future, it does symbolise for a lot | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
of people, particularly Labour voters, if we are talking to you | :23:40. | :23:42. | |
about your own party, about the numbers of people from the EU who | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
could be legible to come to the UK, and that frightens people. -- be | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
eligible. I think what frightens people is not so much people coming | :23:53. | :23:55. | |
in, it's that when they come in, they jump the queue, they jump the | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
queue into the benefits system, they jump the queue into... But we know | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
that they don't claim benefits, they are working, as you keep saying. | :24:04. | :24:10. | |
What concerns people, Jo... I have a constituency where there is huge | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
concern about immigration and I think I understand where they are | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
coming from. If your community changes, if the goods are sold in | :24:20. | :24:22. | |
your shop changes, if your neighbours change, that causes some | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
concern and then you think, I can't get my benefit, I can't get my | :24:27. | :24:29. | |
house, I can't get my school plays, I can't get in my hospital. That | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
causes concern, so pretending - and this is what makes me so crossed- | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
that you deal with those concerns by pretending you can cut numbers when | :24:40. | :24:48. | |
you won't... We can't if we stay in the EU. It is nothing to do with the | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
EU. The figures at the moment, more are coming from outside. Even if you | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
got out of the EU, you would end up having to have the Portuguese, | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
Spanish nurses, having the European students coming here. You would end | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
up wanting European tourism, so the idea that you can control it is a | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
false promise. Let me come back to it and to that but just broadly, on | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
Turkey, because there has been a deal done, that they have | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
successfully controlled level of migration through Turkey and into | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
Europe, through one route, do we not know Turkey some concession because | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
otherwise they said they'll open the floodgates. This is a very serious | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
point. We are playing with fire here, Europe. Turkey is a very | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
important member of Nato and we are effectively promising Turkey | :25:36. | :25:41. | |
membership of the EU. We are not promising membership at the moment. | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
It is these free travel. The whole offer to Turkey was to be | :25:46. | :25:48. | |
integrated. That's why they are offering these are free travel. If | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
this is not going to happen, playing fast and loose with a country that | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
is half in the Muslim world and on the edge of this very, very | :25:58. | :26:00. | |
destabilised area... Should there not have been a deal done on Turkey? | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
Well, trying to push the migration crisis on to Turkey, bribing Turkey | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
to do with the migration crisis and keep the migrants themselves, this | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
is a very dangerous game and it is being played for reasons of European | :26:14. | :26:16. | |
politics and we've seen European politics blow up in Ukraine very | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
badly because of the incompetent EU foreign policy. I hope we are not | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
seeing something seriously going on in Turkey to dock we are going to | :26:24. | :26:25. | |
have to move on at that point. The so-called Islamic State group | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
has claimed responsibility for the deadliest mass shooting | :26:32. | :26:33. | |
in recent US history. The attack at the Pulse nightclub | :26:34. | :26:35. | |
in Orlando began at around 2am local 50 people were killed | :26:36. | :26:38. | |
and a further 53 were injured. The gunman has been identified | :26:39. | :26:41. | |
as 29-year-old US He took hostages after an initial | :26:42. | :26:43. | |
exchange of fire He was then shot dead hours later | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
after a full police assault We can talk now to Tom Rogan, | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
a foreign policy columnist for the National Review, | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
who joins us from Washington. Tom, tell us the latest in terms of | :26:58. | :27:09. | |
response in Washington. Great to be with you. This morning, there is a | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
mixture of obviously great sorrow in terms of the media reporting, in | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
terms of people attending events, especially LGBT of events around the | :27:19. | :27:25. | |
country. But the political dynamic, as well. Hillary Clinton from the | :27:26. | :27:28. | |
Democratic party is focusing on course for a gun ban in terms of | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
assault rifles. Donald Trump is talking about doubling down on his | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
ban on Muslims and he's just told Fox cut through news earlier this | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
morning that "We need to look very strongly at the mosques" so there is | :27:44. | :27:46. | |
this dichotomy in the political dynamic that is spurring fourth. | :27:47. | :27:52. | |
Because in this case this is a home-grown terrorist, a Muslim, but | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
a home-grown terrorist. Has that focused people's political and ten | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
I'm more sharply as a result? -- and I think it has. I don't think | :28:01. | :28:11. | |
Americans have fully come to terms with it yet. It is a change to the | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
landscape and it is the brutality and the durability of that | :28:17. | :28:19. | |
brutality, in the sense that this attack went on for many hours. I | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
think it is something that has shocked people to the court. What | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
about the gun laws? President Obama, when these tragedies do happen, does | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
always refer to the fact that it is so easy in the United States to buy | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
things like assault rifles. Will it actually make any difference? Will | :28:38. | :28:40. | |
this time be any different to previous times? One of the things I | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
think it is quite hard... I grew up in the UK but as an American who | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
grew up in the UK, it is different in terms of how people understand | :28:49. | :28:55. | |
it. The motion of firearms, both in American culture and in people's | :28:56. | :28:58. | |
everyday lives in terms of hunting but also security of home, is | :28:59. | :29:04. | |
something very imbued. And so the administration, yes, with Hillary | :29:05. | :29:07. | |
Clinton, will push for that. They will try to make it an issue going | :29:08. | :29:10. | |
forwards but I think it's going to be very hard for them because | :29:11. | :29:13. | |
ultimately, when it comes down to the crunch moment about legislation | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
in Congress, because of things like concern about magazine capacity | :29:18. | :29:23. | |
limits on handguns, the momentum and the public opinion actually centres | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
towards not reforming the law. Because of the divisiveness within | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
American politics, particularly seen through the prism of the | :29:32. | :29:34. | |
presidential campaign with Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, as you | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
mentioned, that is now going to, I presume, be used to further divide | :29:40. | :29:41. | |
that same community along the lines of Trump and Clinton. | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
Yes, this is the issue we have, it's likely Donald Trump will try to use | :29:47. | :29:53. | |
this to push down on his stance, in terms of bands -- bans and whatever | :29:54. | :30:01. | |
he means by looking into the mosques. The difficulty is, the real | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
thing you can do here, I, for example, argue for a more concerted | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
effort to dealing with Isis more quickly, because of the inspiration | :30:12. | :30:18. | |
quite frankly that their power they get from different groups around the | :30:19. | :30:24. | |
world, recruiting people on the periphery of society in Western | :30:25. | :30:27. | |
countries, but ultimately, in the domestic sense, the FBI and its | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
partners in terms of local law enforcement in alignment with the | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
intelligence community and foreign partners like the British | :30:37. | :30:37. | |
intelligence services, that's how you do with terrorism and the | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
political dynamics ultimately our campaign fodder in what is going to | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
be an extremely bitter campaign. Your viewers may think they've seen | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
about its going to get much, much more heated. I'm sure it will be. | :30:52. | :30:54. | |
Thank you very much. We've been joined in the studio by | :30:55. | :30:55. | |
Douglas Murray, associate director of the Henry Jackson Society, | :30:56. | :30:58. | |
a foreign affairs think tank. Thank you. In a sense, he was a lone | :30:59. | :31:04. | |
wolf and you're never going to completely be able to protect | :31:05. | :31:07. | |
communities from lone wolves with guns. No, not you could burn to be | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
able to. There are certain things you can do -- no, you're not going | :31:12. | :31:17. | |
to be able to do. You can make things harder. You need to have an | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
ideology, you need to have the compulsion to act in a violent way | :31:22. | :31:27. | |
on that ideology and the means to carry out an attack. In America, | :31:28. | :31:30. | |
it's a lot easier to get the means, that we shouldn't be too sacrosanct | :31:31. | :31:36. | |
about this. It's not illegal to get a Kalashnikovs in France but still | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
possible for the people who did it there. It's a lot easier in the USA. | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
The interesting thing so far about this is the Islamic State | :31:47. | :31:49. | |
connection, which is clearly not just for this young man but for a | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
lot of people, provided the ideological component of this. It | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
has given the opportunity for people like this murderer and terrorist, to | :31:59. | :32:06. | |
believe they are part of a bigger thing, believe they are part of a | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
movement. There's always been ideologists, left-wing and | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
right-wing, that drive people, their report this young man was mentally | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
unstable, that drive people to do these things so with anything | :32:20. | :32:23. | |
particularly special about being in accordance with Isis? We've seen a | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
lot of gun massacres in the USA and is usually an enormous interest in | :32:29. | :32:34. | |
the nippy ideology of the person has been propelled by. I'm very stuck in | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
cases like this, let me give you a quick example, if this government | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
had turned out to be from a Christian background, inspired by | :32:44. | :32:46. | |
some far right Christian group, by now the media in the UK, USA and | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
around the world will be looking at who he knew, which church he | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
attended, what preachers who listen to and what his contacts where. Will | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
they not be doing that here? It's striking how little of that has been | :32:59. | :33:06. | |
going on. It's the same in 2009. Let me just finish this point quickly. | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
Only two months ago, in Orlando, Florida, there was a scandal not | :33:12. | :33:14. | |
really picked up in the media, a preacher went to one of the main | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
mosques in Orlando, a Shia preacher from Manchester, and said, he | :33:19. | :33:25. | |
teaches this particular thing, homosexuals not only can be killed | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
but must be killed now. He said you have to kill the gays now. As I say, | :33:30. | :33:35. | |
if this had been a Christian preacher saying this, we would be | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
all over this stuff. People want to say mentally ill because it an | :33:40. | :33:42. | |
Islamic issue. Do you think that's true? We are finding this very | :33:43. | :33:48. | |
difficult because criticising fellow Christians is very much easier than | :33:49. | :33:51. | |
criticising somebody else's religion, but I think we've got to | :33:52. | :33:54. | |
get over this squeamishness and call a spade a spade. You think there is | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
a squeamishness? I feel part of it, it's understandable, I'm a Christian | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
myself and one hesitates to judge other people's religions, but you | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
just need to read Ed Hussain, the Islamist, a ten-year-old but, and | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
how you cannot say these attacks are nothing to do with Islam. And we've | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
got to get this lamb, the Islamic religion better to police itself, | :34:21. | :34:23. | |
huge efforts are being made in this country to do this, by the way, | :34:24. | :34:26. | |
amongst the communities, but they find themselves it difficult to talk | :34:27. | :34:32. | |
about. And you find it difficult to talk about it, Margaret Hodge? To | :34:33. | :34:38. | |
think there was more extremist ideology, taken in some part from a | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
slam even though most Muslims are not violent? I was going to make | :34:43. | :34:51. | |
that point. I talked to my Muslims, I have eight mosques in my | :34:52. | :34:53. | |
constituency and I talk about any extremism or fundamentalism emerging | :34:54. | :35:00. | |
amongst the young people? I think it's important to talk about it, of | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
course, it's a really tough issue to tackle but I got to come back to the | :35:06. | :35:08. | |
USA. I look at the figures this morning because I knew we would be | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
talking about it. 176 mass killings in this calendar year alone since | :35:14. | :35:22. | |
January 2013, there have been 1122 killings from mass killings, whether | :35:23. | :35:28. | |
it ideological in America, that has got to be done with a gun laws. I | :35:29. | :35:36. | |
said that at the outset. Do you think there's any evidence, even if | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
Hillary Clinton decides to adopt it for her presidential campaign, will | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
it make any difference to what is an extremely powerful and embedded gun | :35:47. | :35:52. | |
lobby in the states? This particular attack is primarily not about the | :35:53. | :35:55. | |
gun lobby but about Islamic conflict. If he had not had a gun, | :35:56. | :36:02. | |
he wouldn't be able to do that damage. Let's deal with the gun | :36:03. | :36:05. | |
issue. Will it ever be dealt with on the basis of politics? I wouldn't | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
have thought so. It's an American issue for Americans to deal with. I | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
wish they would make it harder to get assault rifles. People are | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
treating this as if this is in isolation. A couple of months ago a | :36:20. | :36:22. | |
poll was released about the attitudes of British muslins. That | :36:23. | :36:28. | |
poll said 52% of British Muslims want homosexuality to be made | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
illegal in Britain. Not on board with gay marriage, not cool with | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
civil partnerships, but make it illegal to be gay. That is a clear | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
line from that belief held by a majority of British Muslims to | :36:43. | :36:44. | |
somebody walking into a nightclub and gunning down people for being | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
games and it's time Islamic leaders around the world and in this country | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
except they're responsible at this hate. This comes back to be able to | :36:52. | :36:57. | |
say what British law is under way it stands. Is enough being done by | :36:58. | :37:00. | |
politicians like you to go in there and say not acceptable to condemn | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
homosexuality? I agree with that. It's an issue of changing cultures. | :37:07. | :37:12. | |
I go into my mosques and women sit on one side and amends on the other, | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
I find that does not fit in with my values. And I talk about it and say | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
why other women there? I haven't talked about sexuality. Perhaps I | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
should. I will take that away and think about that. Certainly, within | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
the Labour Party now, when we are thinking about anti-Semitism and how | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
that has risen, that raises a whole lot of difficult issues for us. | :37:36. | :37:38. | |
These are tough issues which we should talk about and we should be | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
clear at the British values on tolerance and equality, whatever | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
your gender, whatever the issue, ought to be paramount in UK society | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
so I'm with you on that. And you agree, not countering enough senior | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
people from perhaps outside and within the religion can sing that | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
ideology? Don't undress to how difficult that is. We now have laws | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
that make it almost illegal for comedians to make homophobic jokes, | :38:07. | :38:13. | |
OK? If those laws were applied to preachers in mosques, and the police | :38:14. | :38:16. | |
went in to deal with these crimes, I mean, just think about the tinderbox | :38:17. | :38:21. | |
you would be lighting. We need more understanding. We need to extend as | :38:22. | :38:28. | |
much support as we can to moderate Muslim people who believe in | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
integrating their religion into the values of our society, so it would | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
help them to isolate extremists. The extraordinary thing about the world | :38:38. | :38:43. | |
of Islam, particularly Wahabi Islam, is how exclusive it is and how you | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
are either a good Muslim or not. And it is like the most extreme forms of | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
Christianity. Except that Christianity has never, you know, we | :38:54. | :39:01. | |
don't have the violence... Douglas Murray, thank you. | :39:02. | :39:03. | |
Let's take a look now at how the political week | :39:04. | :39:05. | |
Tomorrow Jeremy Corbyn will give a speech putting forward the case | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
He'll be joined by union leaders Frances O'Grady and Len McCluskey. | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
Then in the afternoon, former Mayor of London Ken Livingstone | :39:15. | :39:16. | |
will be questioned by MPs about anti-Semitism. | :39:17. | :39:19. | |
On Wednesday it's the turn of Sir Philip Green, | :39:20. | :39:22. | |
the former owner of BHS, to go in front of MPs | :39:23. | :39:24. | |
to explain his involvement in the store closing down. | :39:25. | :39:27. | |
On Friday, MPs on the home affairs committee are publishing | :39:28. | :39:33. | |
And to end the week, Andrew Neil interviews his final guest, | :39:34. | :39:39. | |
Iain Duncan Smith, on - what else? - the EU referendum. | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
Joining me now to discuss the week ahead | :39:44. | :39:45. | |
is Rafael Behr of the Guardian, and Isabel Hardman | :39:46. | :39:48. | |
Welcome to both of you. Not long to go now. Gordon Brown making a speech | :39:49. | :39:59. | |
today as part of the Labour remained rebranding, it's a bit late, isn't | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
it? Gordon Brown will be hoping not and the Prime Minister will be | :40:04. | :40:06. | |
hoping not, as well, because what essentially has happened is towards | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
the end of last week, when the official Remain Campaign started to | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
get very nervous about the way things were going and what they | :40:16. | :40:18. | |
found is, while a lot of Conservative voters can be minded to | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
support the European Union, there's a big problem with the Labour vote | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
and what I have essentially done, then sit down on Friday to think | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
about what to do and they decided to more less clear the pitch at the | :40:31. | :40:33. | |
beginning of this week to get the Labour a load of Labour people out | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
to say, in case you realise, the Labour position is to support the | :40:39. | :40:41. | |
membership of the EU and this gets to a big cultural problem the Labour | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
Party has witches, traditionally, in any kind of vote, there's lots of | :40:46. | :40:48. | |
areas where you have Labour voters, and they just turn out in droves and | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
point them to the polling booth and say, you know what to do. But they | :40:54. | :40:56. | |
are doing something different, they don't want to stay in the EU? They | :40:57. | :41:05. | |
will hope it's not too late. Isabel Hardman, Jeremy Corbyn and John | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
McDonnell, it seems, have not been present enough when you look at the | :41:10. | :41:12. | |
statistics in terms of who is made more speeches, had more appearances, | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
it been left, it seems, to some of the former Labour leader is if we | :41:17. | :41:19. | |
look at Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Harriet Harman. Also there's a | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
postmortem of Labour's failed campaign on this. Alan Johnson also | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
will come in for criticism because he's barely been visible and he's | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
the leader for the Labour in campaign for that we barely had | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
speeches, read anything from him and I'm not sure what he's been doing to | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
infuse those Labour voters and that's exactly what you were | :41:43. | :41:45. | |
supposed to do, to take the role some thought Jeremy Corbyn could not | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
necessarily do because he's quite sceptical about Europe even though | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
he's officially campaigning to stay in. What about June 24? At the | :41:54. | :41:59. | |
weekend, there was talk about pensions and a triple lock, David | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
Cameron saying it could be at risk, but that government policy whether | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
we are in or out of the EU. Gordon Brown talk about jobs created if we | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
stayed in the EU. We do seem to be now squarely in what does happen on | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
June 24 in terms of manifestos and election promises. That point about | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
pensions is quite interesting because it's a wider argument that | :42:22. | :42:28. | |
the Remain people are trying to say, there would be less money for | :42:29. | :42:31. | |
everything. One interesting thing in this campaign is a whole frame of | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
politics and the economic argument before the EU referendum was about | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
fiscal crisis, I think we've more or less close that but can now and as a | :42:40. | :42:42. | |
whole new chapter. The league campaign says we have a huge amount | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
of money to spend on hospitals and schools and David Cameron saying the | :42:47. | :42:50. | |
leader spent on pensions. You will find a different structure to the | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
way the whole argument goes on about priorities and what the product of | :42:55. | :42:57. | |
governing Britain will be regardless of the result and that throws | :42:58. | :43:00. | |
anything up in the air. Who will be in charge then? Will it be Remain or | :43:01. | :43:11. | |
Leave? There's a big push to keep David Cameron even if there is a | :43:12. | :43:17. | |
Vote Leave. Many MPs think it would be a good idea for the country but | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
it would be very difficult for David Cameron to have authority as Prime | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
Minister, given he is made warnings like Brexit will put a bomb under | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
the economy. How will he reassure people that exactly what's happening | :43:30. | :43:32. | |
and how we carry out the wishes of the British people? We don't | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
necessarily know what model of Brexit he would go for and you would | :43:37. | :43:39. | |
have to work with those who campaigned for Leave to work on that | :43:40. | :43:45. | |
so it would be very tricky and it's quite significant he's had to talk | :43:46. | :43:48. | |
about that already and it shows he's not in the plate in his campaign | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
where he helped to be at this stage. Thank you to both of you. | :43:53. | :43:55. | |
If you've been following the news coverage of BHS, you'll know | :43:56. | :43:57. | |
that the former owner of the chain of high street stores, | :43:58. | :44:00. | |
Sir Philip Green, is refusing to appear in front of a House | :44:01. | :44:03. | |
of Commons committee to answer questions | :44:04. | :44:04. | |
Sir Philip said on Friday that he's not prepared to participate | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
with the evidence session this Wednesday, unless its chairman, | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
Sir Philip says Mr Field is biased and is conducting a trial by media. | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
Another MP on the committee, Richard Fuller, told Andrew Neil | :44:17. | :44:18. | |
yesterday there would be consequences if Sir Philip | :44:19. | :44:20. | |
I've always said that we have to wait for him to come and answer | :44:21. | :44:27. | |
What we've seen in the last few weeks is very serious | :44:28. | :44:30. | |
concerns about his behaviour and the behaviour of his directors. | :44:31. | :44:33. | |
If he doesn't come, I think, at that stage then, within the rules | :44:34. | :44:36. | |
of how you can be stripped of an honour, I think the committee | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
would very seriously look at that, yes. | :44:40. | :44:42. | |
At this point we had hoped to be joined by the chair of the Work | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
and Pensions Select Committee, Frank Field, but sadly he hasn't | :44:47. | :44:48. | |
But, of course, I have you to instead. So what are the sanctions, | :44:49. | :44:55. | |
Bernard Jenkin, that can be brought to bear on someone like filigree and | :44:56. | :45:01. | |
if he doesn't turn up? It is very serious to be in contempt of | :45:02. | :45:03. | |
Parliament but he would be subject to contempt of Parliament | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
proceedings. -- someone like Philip green. If he refuses to take part, | :45:09. | :45:15. | |
there are no criminal sanctions, no fines, but his reputation is in | :45:16. | :45:18. | |
tatters and the idea that he could retain his knighthood or anything | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
like that... It's stupid, actually, because he can come to the | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
committee, he is free to speak, he is free to say whatever he likes so | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
long as he is not actually misleading parliament. He is not | :45:32. | :45:33. | |
going to be constrained about what he says about other people for fear | :45:34. | :45:40. | |
of being sued and it is to its advantage to attend and the idea | :45:41. | :45:44. | |
that Ranville, of all people, is not open-minded and evenhanded, he is | :45:45. | :45:51. | |
picking on... I don't come under the same category as Frank. But he has | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
made a valid point, I think, by saying, if you've already made up | :45:57. | :46:01. | |
your mind, and you have lots of sessions where people said, we bang | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
to rights before we even appear, why should they appeared before what | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
they feel are biased proceedings? Goal but I think our sections are a | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
bit stronger than Bernard suggested. Until the 1880s, when people refused | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
to do something that the House of Commons ruled, we would take them | :46:20. | :46:22. | |
through the House of Commons and they would have a little period of | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
surgery to reflect. That sounds very ominous! They were | :46:27. | :46:36. | |
locked up in a room. You can't do that now, can you? Why not? It has | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
never been removed. Because of the Human Rights Act. We are not talking | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
about the EU referendum on the Human Rights Act. Go bye-bye think it has | :46:46. | :46:48. | |
been a great week of Parliament. The hearings that were held in front of | :46:49. | :46:57. | |
Ian Wright, what a fantastic... And you are talking about Mike | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
Ashley. You would never have got it in a court of law. You would never | :47:03. | :47:05. | |
have got Mike Ashley admitting in a court of law that he was not paying | :47:06. | :47:11. | |
minimal wage and the strength of the informality... But they've got to | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
turn up. If they think you are biased and have made up your mind, | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
and Frank field has even put up figure on the amount he should pay, | :47:21. | :47:25. | |
why should he turn up? It is to Philip Green's advantage of the ends | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
up. This is not a judicial process and is not going to result in any | :47:30. | :47:32. | |
consequences, judicial consequences for him, as a result of this. Not | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
even the Financial Conduct Authority, the department for trade | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
and industry, they cannot use what he says in that committee against | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
him in any way whatsoever. That is the advantage of the select | :47:47. | :47:49. | |
committee. Do you think he will turn up? I think he will and I agree with | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
Bernard. If he doesn't... You are going to lock him away? I'm going to | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
lock him away in Big Ben and take his knighthood. He would be served | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
with a rich. It happened Arthur Scargill. If you are running away | :48:03. | :48:12. | |
from a writ for Parliament, what have you got left of your | :48:13. | :48:16. | |
reputation? Lets leave it there. Philip Green, I hope you are | :48:17. | :48:17. | |
watching. Interviews with big | :48:18. | :48:19. | |
names are a mainstay But how do the big interviewers make | :48:20. | :48:20. | |
sure their grillings on TV In the latest of a series | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
of films about how BBC news programmes are put together, | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
Adam's gone behind the scenes of some of the BBC's | :48:30. | :48:31. | |
flagship political shows. Up the road at Broadcasting House, | :48:32. | :48:33. | |
it's rush hour as politicians arrive On first, Andrew Marr with a line-up | :48:34. | :48:39. | |
that includes the Mayor of London, the former head of MI6 | :48:40. | :48:46. | |
and the Justice So sometimes you simply say what's | :48:47. | :48:48. | |
on your mind and sit Sometimes you have to really hit | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
them hard and carry on pursuing something they don't | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
want to talk about. Every interview is different, | :48:59. | :48:59. | |
but I'm basically there to get the interviewee to say the most | :49:00. | :49:05. | |
interesting things to two million plus people watching | :49:06. | :49:08. | |
that they can say on that day. Sometimes it doesn't go brilliantly, | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
like this interview with Boris. I'm going to tell you what I'm | :49:13. | :49:14. | |
going to cover. There are times when something more | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
than the intellectual give-and-take that we're looking for creeps | :49:19. | :49:27. | |
into the relationship with I try to look people in the eye | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
and ask always the obvious questions Right, off to the third floor to see | :49:31. | :49:40. | |
Pienaar Politics on 5 Live. RADIO: First for breaking news | :49:41. | :49:49. | |
and the best live sport. Even though his name | :49:50. | :49:52. | |
is in the title of the show, JP insists interviews | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
are never about him. You start from the position | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
that we are impartial Once you recognise there's no place | :50:03. | :50:04. | |
for your own prejudices and your own personal take | :50:05. | :50:09. | |
on things, it's not interesting Once you start from there, | :50:10. | :50:12. | |
all of your questions fall into the necessary category | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
and they make sense. You don't let any politician | :50:17. | :50:19. | |
just say what they have You test them or what's | :50:20. | :50:22. | |
the point of being there? What's the point of asking | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
questions? OK, it's 11 o'clock so time to go | :50:27. | :50:34. | |
to the basement again for The Sunday Politics | :50:35. | :50:36. | |
with Andrew Neil. Andrew is grilling the leader | :50:37. | :50:38. | |
of the Scottish Conservatives The catchphrase he uses when he's | :50:39. | :50:45. | |
prepping for interviews A team of researchers works | :50:46. | :50:49. | |
through what will be the best lines to follow, | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
do the fact-based research, go through all the documents, make sure | :50:55. | :50:57. | |
we know what we're talking about. I do the same myself, | :50:58. | :51:00. | |
I do a lot of research myself. We bring the two together | :51:01. | :51:03. | |
and we try to build a reputation for basing our interviews | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
on the facts and getting the politicians of all parties | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
to address the facts. And that's it for Sunday morning | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
with my much, much, much, much, Interviewing an interviewer | :51:18. | :51:20. | |
about interviewing. And you can see all Adam's films | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
about how the BBC ensures fairness In the final few weeks before | :51:25. | :51:33. | |
the referendum on 23rd June, we have been showcasing | :51:34. | :51:42. | |
the arguments for remaining in the EU and leaving it | :51:43. | :51:43. | |
in a series of short films. Today we're looking at how Green | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
supporters are approaching the vote. In a moment we'll hear | :51:48. | :51:50. | |
from the Green MP Caroline Lucas First, though, here's | :51:51. | :51:53. | |
the Green activist Mark Hill, Most of the political parties tell | :51:54. | :51:59. | |
us that we should remain in the European Union but just look | :52:00. | :52:15. | |
at the opinion polls. And many of those expecting to vote | :52:16. | :52:19. | |
Leave will therefore be Green We are reminding voters | :52:20. | :52:26. | |
that we are all in this together and we take this decision | :52:27. | :52:34. | |
collectively as citizens whatever Our key argument is that the major | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
parties all want us to stay in, claiming that we can reform | :52:39. | :52:46. | |
the European Union from within. We simply say that the | :52:47. | :52:50. | |
European Union is beyond reform. Protectionism against developing | :52:51. | :52:54. | |
countries, savage austerity in Greece and mass unemployment | :52:55. | :52:57. | |
amongst youth are the results, so look at our website which show | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
what left-wing figures like Tony Benn have had to say | :53:03. | :53:05. | |
about the European Union. Because to come and speak | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
at a public meeting, And here's Caroline Lucas, | :53:10. | :53:11. | |
former leader of the Green Party, with her case for remaining | :53:12. | :53:25. | |
in the EU. Now, it was so good we thought we'd | :53:26. | :53:51. | |
play you twice! We will try and bring new Caroline Lucas's in just a | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
moment but we've been joined in the studio by Mark Hill, the leader of | :53:56. | :53:58. | |
the Green KEN DOHERTY: Leaves campaign. -- the | :53:59. | :54:02. | |
green leaves campaign. And by the deputy leader | :54:03. | :54:05. | |
of the Green Party Shahrar Ali. Surely it is better to negotiate as | :54:06. | :54:12. | |
part of the major trading bloc than alone? I would say no. I would say | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
that the results on issues like climate change have been very mixed. | :54:18. | :54:20. | |
The emissions trading scheme has been less successful than some of | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
the projects that the government has undertaken unilaterally. Bilateral | :54:26. | :54:31. | |
treaties work extremely well. It would be wrong to say that the | :54:32. | :54:37. | |
European Union has been uniformly unsuccessful but there are certainly | :54:38. | :54:39. | |
many environmentally related responsibilities which it has not | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
exercised well. But are you really saying that Britain would have done | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
better at some of those targets than by being part of the EU? I suggest | :54:49. | :54:53. | |
that we should be very conscious of what the EU decides but not be ruled | :54:54. | :55:00. | |
by a. What do you say, Sharar Ali? With the greatest respect, I think | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
anybody who really understands green ethos, green ideology and the green | :55:05. | :55:10. | |
movement, we are through and through internationalists. That's why we are | :55:11. | :55:16. | |
firmly arguing for staying in the EU but not unreformed. Wheelie great | :55:17. | :55:19. | |
reform. But some of the things where we need cross border reform, | :55:20. | :55:24. | |
collaboration, climate change is one of the biggest issues of our time. | :55:25. | :55:28. | |
We've had an agreement amongst international leaders and it is much | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
much easier now for us to get EU leaders together and to try and make | :55:33. | :55:38. | |
the steps that are necessary, like 107 renewable energy by 2050. These | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
are not things that can be done unilaterally or bilaterally, and the | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
EU has been tremendous on environmental legislation generally. | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
Is Mark misguided, and is he very representative in terms of other | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
Green Party supporters? Unlike most parties, we have an official, | :55:55. | :56:01. | |
democratically decided position. People are able to dissent from that | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
but once it is decided I think it is great for the party to be | :56:06. | :56:08. | |
demonstrating the unity of that decision. However, I think it is | :56:09. | :56:13. | |
doubly problematic for Green is to be proposing and except for the EU. | :56:14. | :56:18. | |
This is one of the areas where we have proportional representation. We | :56:19. | :56:22. | |
have a far better mandate in the European Parliament than we do in | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
our own UK Parliamentary institutions. Caroline Lucas, first | :56:28. | :56:29. | |
past the post, one by 1 million voters. We are very aware that we | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
are standing for a referendum and reform to stay in. The House of | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
Lords, and an elected institution, we can't equate that institution | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
with the European Parliament, a farm more do credit regime. This seems to | :56:43. | :56:45. | |
go against some of the core principles of being a member of the | :56:46. | :56:49. | |
Green Party. I don't think so and for a long time the Green Party was | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
very ambivalent about the EU and that was part of a tradition that | :56:54. | :56:59. | |
existed across the left, including towering figures like Tony Benn. If | :57:00. | :57:03. | |
you look at the polls now, the Leave campaign would appear to be ahead. | :57:04. | :57:09. | |
That's empty can be on the back of disgruntled Conservatives and Ukip | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
supporters. -- that simply cannot be. Everybody that is arguing for | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
relief is ultimately against their political party and it would appear | :57:19. | :57:21. | |
from the breakdowns of the opinion polls that people on the left are | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
going to be roughly 30% or more voting for Leave in spite of what | :57:28. | :57:32. | |
you say, and I would claim that a lot of people are doing this | :57:33. | :57:35. | |
precisely for internationalist reasons, because they would like to | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
engage more deeply with the wide array of countries outside be you | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
that need our contact. One of the things Mark Reyes was about | :57:45. | :57:47. | |
austerity, because the policy since the crash has been pro-austerity, | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
rightly or only, and that in itself would not be a Green Party | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
printable. That definitely great against Green Party ethos and we've | :57:57. | :57:59. | |
been railing against austerity measures in this country, but that | :58:00. | :58:02. | |
isn't to say that people facing massive unemployment in Greece or or | :58:03. | :58:07. | |
facing those kinds austerity measures shouldn't get a bit of | :58:08. | :58:11. | |
solidarity from us. It is partly about what kind of people you want | :58:12. | :58:15. | |
to be, do you want to pull up the drawbridge and be Englanders or do | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
we want to express solidarity with our European colleagues and | :58:20. | :58:21. | |
neighbours and say, actually, we're with you and we're going to help | :58:22. | :58:26. | |
you, even if, as a relatively rich country, it is going to cost a | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
slightly more? I think the people of this country are very prepared to do | :58:31. | :58:33. | |
things not just for their own sake but for others to. We are sorry we | :58:34. | :58:36. | |
are unable to show the Caroline Lucas clip as promised but you can | :58:37. | :58:42. | |
watch it online on our website. Gremlins obviously exist. | :58:43. | :58:44. | |
Thanks to Margaret, Bernard and all my guests. | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
I'll be back here on BBC Two tomorrow at noon with | :58:49. | :58:50. | |
MUSIC: Send My Love (To Your New Lover) by Adele | :58:51. | :59:03. |