21/06/2016 Daily Politics


21/06/2016

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LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:40.

David Cameron wants to reduce net migration to less than 100,000

:00:41.:00:43.

So why has his former head of strategy said

:00:44.:00:48.

that the Prime Minister was told four years ago that the promise

:00:49.:00:51.

The man who made millions when Britain tumbled out of the ERM

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on Black Wednesday's warning that it could be a Black Friday

:01:00.:01:01.

Should we take him seriously or is he just another wealthy

:01:02.:01:05.

Six big-hitting politicians of the main stage, 6,000 Leave

:01:06.:01:13.

and Remain supporters in the audience.

:01:14.:01:16.

Are you ready for the BBC's Great Referendum Debate?

:01:17.:01:21.

The fur is flying on Twitter in a feline face-off.

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But how do these cats' owners know what they think?

:01:30.:01:39.

With us for the whole of the programme today,

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Two rivals in the referendum debate but they will not be as voracious as

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felines, or maybe they will! Times columnist and ex-

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Conservative Tim Montgomerie, The Confederation of

:01:56.:02:03.

British Industry's first female whose big business members

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are campaigning to stay in. First this morning, forget

:02:05.:02:07.

the Stadium Municipal in Toulouse, scene of Wales' footballing triumph

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yesterday, another iconic footballing address will be

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the scene of great drama tonight. Wembley - the arena not the stadium

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- is hosting the BBC's Great Debate tonight

:02:20.:02:26.

on BBC One at 8pm. It's the biggest referendum event

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of the campaign and its compere has taken a break from a busy

:02:29.:02:31.

rehearsal to join us. I am pleased to welcome the

:02:32.:02:41.

masterful David Dimbleby. That is a massive audience, 6000, and you have

:02:42.:02:46.

to keep them under control. I wish it were Wembley Stadium. We could

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have filled Wembley Stadium ten times over the amount of interest in

:02:51.:02:55.

this debate. Millions of people will be watching. We are in the arena,

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which is great. I am taking my guitar, I will be singing a ditty,

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hello, Wembley! We have had weeks and weeks of discussion. What

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happens in a long campaign is all kinds of detail is gone into but at

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the end, when people go into the polling booth, it normally focuses

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on two or three big points. I think tonight the campaigns will focus on

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those and the audience asking the questions, they will focus on what

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seemed to be the most important, the visceral feeling that will make

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people decide whether In or Out is for them. You have a panel of three

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petitions each side. How will it work? It is carefully worked out

:03:47.:03:54.

between the two sides. The Vote Leave and Remain campaigns have

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chosen the people, three on each side. There will be an opening

:03:59.:04:04.

statement and closing statement, one minute for each. I think long

:04:05.:04:08.

opening statements in some debates have been tedious. Short statements.

:04:09.:04:16.

In between, those six will debate questions that have been chosen from

:04:17.:04:21.

the audience. Also Michelle Hussain will be there with ten people

:04:22.:04:25.

listening at the back of the stadium, commenting on what they

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have heard. It should have a good pace. That will work well. And the

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last 20 minutes, we are in the spin room and hearing reaction from

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outsiders, politicians, everybody. Two hours, but it is not two long

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hours of statements. I hope to get a good dialogue running across the

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stage. That is the plan. It is Wembley, it sounds like a warm up

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for Glastonbury if you have your guitar. There are two stages. There

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are three, really. There is me, Michelle Hussain with a gang of

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people. Empoli outside in the spin room. -- Emily Maitlis. It is not

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raining. There are train strikes coming out of your ears. I hope

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people will get here. Before we closed the books we had 20,000

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people applying. It is fantastic inside. It is a huge stadium with

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bleachers all around. We are on a big stage. It is bigger and more

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glamorous than any thing you can imagine. It is better than your set.

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The bar is low here, I can assure you! You go back to your bigger and

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better set. Are you happy with the Remain line-up, this close to

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polling day, would you have liked to have seen the Prime Minister, George

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Osborne? I think it is a good line-up. We are getting to the final

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distillation of the argument. To have a line-up that are not

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necessarily be usual suspects. Francis O'Grady I think will make a

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terrific case for workers' rights. Ruth Davidson, who presented a

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strong Remain case. And Sadiq Khan, coming out strong on London and not

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just London. Does Boris Johnson perform well in this format? I think

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he does. The Leave side have the same people who appeared on ITV, if

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I am allowed to mention that. We can name the competitors! Theirs was a

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smaller event than the BBC! The Leave team, a conservative, Gisela

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Stuart, Labour, who did a good job two weeks ago. The Leave pudding at

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the same team. In that debate, people like -- putting out the same

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team. Boris was disciplined in not responding. I think there was an

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attempt to provoke Boris. The danger if Remain repeat that it allowed

:07:29.:07:34.

Gisela Stuart and Andrew to make points uninterrupted. People were

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focused on attacking Boris which allowed the other Leave spokesman to

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make points more clearly. Ruth Davidson, the Conservative leader in

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Scotland has been chosen, I think to duff up Boris. She is pugnacious.

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Interesting. Particularly after the tragedy of last week, an emphasis on

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personal attacks will not go down well and I hope both sides will

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emphasise, as Carolyn said, the big closing arguments of the campaign,

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so we have substance rather than pettiness. What about changing

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minds? People are still saying they do not know or their minds could be

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changed. How important is it in that regard? Really important. I think if

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we can get away... If in this last week people can get back to core

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arguments around the economy, arguments around immigration,

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sovereignty, if they can be brought together in a simple and straight

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forward and honest way, I think it could be compelling for people to

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make their final minds up. There I say it, because we are on our show,

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is there anything left to say? We had this great debate and you want

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to ram home the messages of both campaigns, is there anything new to

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say? I do not think there is anything new to say but there are

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undecided people. It seems to be a diminishing number. It might be ten

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or 15%. It could swing a result. My feeling is if you ask people whether

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they would join the European Union if we were not already members, the

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pollsters find overwhelmingly not. People are frightened of leaving

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because of scare stories put out by the business community and by the

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Prime Minister, it is almost an emotional thing now. Do people

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believe enough in Britain's ability to survive outside of the EU? If

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people want facts there are only a certain number of facts. It is an

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element of faith now. Will it be heart rather than head? I think it

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will be a mixture of the two and what is coming through strongly is

:09:57.:10:01.

the sense of opportunities and benefits for the economy of being in

:10:02.:10:06.

the EU. I am pleased that we have begun to see more about positive

:10:07.:10:11.

arguments, the fact we are on the verge of a digital single market

:10:12.:10:15.

with Vodafone talking about the advantages and smaller businesses.

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The services economy and that opportunity. I think there is an

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opportunity for positive economic arguments around jobs, prosperity,

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that can come through. The question for today is which of

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these cats supports Brexit? At the end of the show,

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Tim and Carolyn will give Now - the Conservatives' 2010

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election campaign promised to reduce net migration

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to the tens of thousands. in a Coalition Government,

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at last year's election the Conservatives AGAIN included

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the commitment in their manifesto. But now Steve Hilton -

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who is the the former director of strategy at Downing Street -

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has said that officials told them back in 2012 that the commitment

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was unachievable if we stayed This question of immigration

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in this referendum isn't about whether you want lower

:11:21.:11:23.

immigration or higher immigration. It's about whether the government

:11:24.:11:25.

that people elect in this And when I was working

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in government, we were told by officials that as long

:11:29.:11:33.

as we are in the EU, we couldn't And that's why I think we need

:11:34.:11:36.

to leave the EU. And David Cameron was asked

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about Steve Hilton's claim by Lorraine Kelly on ITV this

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morning. It had fallen quite substantially

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and it had got to not far away from the ambition I set. There are good

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ways of controlling immigration. People who work here have to work

:12:12.:12:15.

four years before getting full access to the welfare system. But

:12:16.:12:20.

pulling out of the single market, wrecking our economy, that is a bad

:12:21.:12:21.

way. Are you surprised to hear Steve

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Hilton being prominent in the closing weeks in this campaign,

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particularly with the claim that civil servants told number 10 when

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he was there it was not achievable to bring net migration down to tens

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of thousands if the UK stayed in the EU? I am not surprised. I talked to

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Steve when he worked for the Prime Minister and was very frustrated

:12:46.:12:49.

them by the amount of paperwork that came across his desk from the

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European Union. He had a colour-coded system, the stuff that

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came from the Coalition Government, the stuff from Europe and the stuff

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from the civil service and he said the biggest pile was the stuff

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Europe generated, an illustration of how much we are governed by the EU,

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and I think he is right saying as long as we are part of the EU, we do

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not know if immigration is 330 thousand net, 555,000 next year. We

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have no mechanism to control it and if we have no mechanism to control

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it, we cannot plan for its impact on hospitals and schools and the

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housing market. Was it a mistake to continue to make the pledge to

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reduce net migration to tens of thousands when you cannot control at

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least half? It is a political choice and I have to say it is one the

:13:48.:13:51.

business community has always thought is a challenging thing. You

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cannot control the number of people who leave and so it would always be

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challenging, and it means there has been a focus on the control of this

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number rather than what is in the best interests of jobs, the economy.

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I think we would be entirely happy if there was not a net migration

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number. This is one of the big gaps. The business wants cheap labour.

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They want imported cheap labour from all over Europe because it keeps

:14:20.:14:24.

costs down. Quite a lot of the Leave side want high immigration. We have

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heard from Michael Gove and Boris Johnson. It is important we have

:14:29.:14:35.

immigration. We need certain people for hospitals, we need highly

:14:36.:14:39.

skilled people. If we are in control, we know the next year we

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will get to a certain amount, we can adjusted accordingly, but the

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problem at the moment, because we have no control over immigration

:14:49.:14:51.

from the rest of Europe, we can have big swings that great big pressures.

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What about cheap labour, unskilled workers? That is not right. Be

:15:02.:15:07.

honest. A lot of the opportunities, we have had huge skill shortages

:15:08.:15:11.

across the country. In the West Midlands they have a shortage of

:15:12.:15:16.

engineers. This has been one way we have been able to continue to grow.

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I recognise and members recognise this causes challenges in some parts

:15:23.:15:27.

and do not under estimate that. But the solutions are not enclosing our

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borders. Wouldn't it be better if we could pick and choose, which we

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could do if we had control? One of the things that we forget

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that this is a benefit to our people here. Answer the question I asked

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rather than changing the subject. It is an important point. In the 1980s,

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when our economy was growing less quickly, and the German economy was

:15:54.:16:02.

growing well, we had our feeders then, pet, young people going over

:16:03.:16:06.

to Germany to work, and it was a great opportunity. Young people love

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the idea that they could go and work abroad, and that is a reciprocal

:16:14.:16:17.

idea. At the moment it is going in one direction, but it could go in

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the other. We will talk about immigration are little later. To

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come back to the central point that Steve Hilton was making, they were

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warned that it wasn't possible. Steve Hilton has also said, and

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Michael Gove today, he assumed the Prime Minister would negotiate a

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better deal around this issue of freedom of movement. You think that

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is also what happened at the time, that they assumed they would be able

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to do something ahead of the referendum, and the Prime Minister

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says they have? There was an a real belief in Downing Street that they

:16:50.:16:54.

would get this emergency brake, they said, give us something if numbers

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released at a rocket, we could turn the tap off, because you talk to the

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New Zealand or Australia Prime Minister is, they have much higher

:17:04.:17:07.

levels of immigration, but it is not a political issue, and their

:17:08.:17:11.

explanation for that is that at any time, they can turn off the tap,

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they have control. I did think the British people are not generous,

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they understand the points that Carolyn make, they need certain

:17:19.:17:24.

levels of skilled labour. But when Germany so ruthlessly and

:17:25.:17:27.

uncompromisingly said you can't have anything at all, that gave us an

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illustration really of Europe's unwillingness to even give, when we

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had to the head of the referendum, Europe is not in a mood for

:17:36.:17:38.

compromise, not in a move try to help Britain out, which is one of

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the reasons why we are better out of the club. Were you surprised that

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there was not as much corporation from countries like Germany and

:17:47.:17:49.

France over this issue of trying to control the flow of freedom of

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movement? I think there is a really important thing at the heart of all

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of this, this is what the single market involves. And that is going

:17:56.:17:59.

to be one of the core choices for the British public on Thursday. It

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is part of being a member of the single market, and the benefits of

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that, we believe, are really significant. It is part of that,

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that idea of free movement, that is at the heart of this choice. All

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right. Alongside immigration, the other

:18:16.:18:18.

battle today is the economy. Some of the biggest names

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on the high street are today warning that families will face higher

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prices if we leave the EU. Former bosses of Tesco, Sainsbury's,

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Marks Spencer, Asda, Waitrose and Morrisons have all said

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the rising costs of the weekly shop would be "catastrophic

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for ordinary families". Their letter came as retail worker

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union Usdaw suggested that workers would be ?580 worse off if Britain

:18:39.:18:42.

left the EU due to a hit on sterling But economists for Brexit countered

:18:43.:18:46.

with a warning that unskilled EU migrants cost each taxpayer

:18:47.:18:54.

on average ?17.75 per month. They base this on a family of four

:18:55.:19:01.

costing ?29,225 in tax credits, housing and child benefit

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and the cost of education They say single unskilled workers

:19:07.:19:08.

cost ?849 each year. Meanwhile, financier

:19:09.:19:17.

George Soros, who made a fortune betting against the pound

:19:18.:19:21.

on Black Wednesday, said sterling would "decline precipitously"

:19:22.:19:23.

if Leave win this week. But Unite boss Len McCluskey,

:19:24.:19:28.

despite backing Remain, said that EU immigration has led

:19:29.:19:30.

to "sustained pressure on living standards"

:19:31.:19:33.

at the "expense" of British workers. Well, we can now talk to our guest,

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he is in Cardiff, Patrick Minford. Your report today says on skilled

:19:53.:19:56.

immigrants cost ?6.6 billion per year, but this is based on families

:19:57.:20:00.

of four with a stay at home mother. Do you know many families of four on

:20:01.:20:05.

skilled migrants with stay at home mums in the UK? The basic point is

:20:06.:20:13.

that it costs the best part of ?30,000 for that particular family

:20:14.:20:17.

type, if an unskilled worker brings in the rest of the family and he has

:20:18.:20:22.

two kids, ages 30 grand. Of course it can be less, it can be more. The

:20:23.:20:27.

whole point is that if you are an unskilled worker, you don't pay much

:20:28.:20:31.

tax, and you often get tax credits. If you have a family, you get a lot

:20:32.:20:35.

of tax credits, say your contribution to the Exchequer is

:20:36.:20:39.

probably negative, and then you impose the costs of health,

:20:40.:20:45.

education and housing on us, the other taxpayers, and of course

:20:46.:20:48.

particularly on the local communities who have to endure these

:20:49.:20:50.

costs locally rather than nationally. So it is very easy for

:20:51.:20:55.

the rest of us to say, it is very nice to have cheap labour and so on.

:20:56.:21:00.

The costs are borne by the local communities, which is why they are

:21:01.:21:03.

angry. But it is your figures that we are looking at. You seem to be

:21:04.:21:07.

saying you based the figures, the number of unskilled migrant

:21:08.:21:11.

families, on the UK average household composition. Most people

:21:12.:21:14.

would agree that the two are not the parable. We don't know exactly,

:21:15.:21:19.

unfortunately. So why have you used it as an illustrative figure? We

:21:20.:21:29.

have 28% single and the rest are family. The number can be smaller or

:21:30.:21:33.

larger. Under the fact of our welfare system, you get much more

:21:34.:21:37.

than you pay in. If you had a family of one kid, it would be the same. If

:21:38.:21:44.

you have a family, if you only have one and a nonworking mother, you get

:21:45.:21:48.

tax credits. That is the point, the facts of our welfare system. The

:21:49.:21:53.

basic point, Jo, is that if you have a welfare system, you act as a

:21:54.:21:58.

magnet for unskilled workers. If you also have a high level employment,

:21:59.:22:02.

followed by Matt on an economy doing well when the rest of Europe is

:22:03.:22:09.

doing badly. So you are assuming that three quarters of farm workers

:22:10.:22:14.

and labourers come here with their partners and children, whereas on

:22:15.:22:24.

skilled migrants are usually young. You really saying they cost our

:22:25.:22:31.

health service every year. There is a indeed, there is childbirth, if

:22:32.:22:38.

you have kids... The whole point is we don't really exactly, but what we

:22:39.:22:41.

do know is that this welfare state, and this is why of course Australia

:22:42.:22:45.

has a green card system, and it doesn't let in unskilled workers, or

:22:46.:22:50.

if they do let unskilled workers, they'd let them in with dependents,

:22:51.:22:53.

because they cost so much to the welfare state. This is the

:22:54.:22:57.

fundamental point, and that is why we could get lots of lots of

:22:58.:23:01.

unskilled workers. And there is a further point, that they put a

:23:02.:23:04.

depressing effect on the local wage on the local economy, which again is

:23:05.:23:09.

a factor that is very unpopular, naturally, with the people in those

:23:10.:23:12.

areas. Say you have a package that is damaging to poor people, and is

:23:13.:23:18.

not damaging to richer people and those with privilege. Lets get your

:23:19.:23:24.

response, Carolyn, because one of the things Patrick Minford is saying

:23:25.:23:28.

is that they are not paying in as much as they are taking at, browse

:23:29.:23:32.

the overall contribution the country from EU migrants according to a lot

:23:33.:23:35.

of studies, certainly in taxes paid, is greater than the amount taken at.

:23:36.:23:40.

Where I agree with Patrick is that there are local issues, and we

:23:41.:23:44.

accept that. But this is highly misleading analysis in terms of the

:23:45.:23:49.

kind of natural family composition. We know from experience that it is

:23:50.:23:54.

not a family of four that is the typical model here, and studies have

:23:55.:23:58.

shown that the net contribution is around about ?2.5 billion overall,

:23:59.:24:01.

so these are highly misleading figures. The other thing I would

:24:02.:24:05.

like to pick up on this this point about the depressing of wages. There

:24:06.:24:09.

has been a very detailed Bank of England study done at the end of

:24:10.:24:11.

last year that pulled together all of the different research on this.

:24:12.:24:16.

They concluded that the impact on immigration and wages was

:24:17.:24:22.

negligible, and close to zero. So I have to say, this is not helping or

:24:23.:24:25.

adding or clarifying this important debate at all. Patrick Minford, can

:24:26.:24:30.

I just say, low skilled British people should be more worried by the

:24:31.:24:37.

claims of the supermarket bosses that leaving the EU would cause

:24:38.:24:46.

supermarket prices to rise, rather than having their wages depressed.

:24:47.:24:51.

If you go to free trade and have competition in the supermarket to

:24:52.:24:54.

get rid of the common agricultural policy and the protectionist

:24:55.:24:57.

policies of the EU, you will bring prices down massively. What they are

:24:58.:25:02.

talking about is a temporary effect on the exchange rate of the way the

:25:03.:25:06.

economy reacts to Brexit, which is a completely different matter. And so

:25:07.:25:10.

if they look in terms of the living standards of people after the

:25:11.:25:15.

adjustment has come through, they go up. And that is what they have done,

:25:16.:25:20.

they have just said, they have assumed, like George Soros, a big

:25:21.:25:25.

policy uncertainty effect on the exchange rate, which is temporary,

:25:26.:25:29.

and the exchange rate will simply stabilise the economy like it did

:25:30.:25:32.

after we left the exchange rate mechanism. Are you worried about

:25:33.:25:36.

that, Tim Montgomerie? George Torres is worried about the Sterling

:25:37.:25:41.

falling precipitously. That would have a dramatic effect even in the

:25:42.:25:45.

short term. I was at the Bank of England, I had just joined them at

:25:46.:25:49.

the time of the week fell out of the exchange rate mechanism, and you

:25:50.:25:52.

talk about black Wednesday and Black Friday. A lot of us remember it as

:25:53.:25:58.

White Wednesday, the day a 14 year economic recovery began. There will

:25:59.:26:06.

be some uncertainty. But you don't think that is important in and of

:26:07.:26:12.

itself? The economy has automatic stabilisers, and a small downward

:26:13.:26:15.

movement in the pound would help exporters you're in that period. We

:26:16.:26:19.

don't have an inflation problem at the moment, in fact we have some

:26:20.:26:23.

risk of deviation, so a more competitive pound would suit the UK

:26:24.:26:27.

economy very well for a period, and once our trade arrangements are

:26:28.:26:31.

stabilised, we can go back to a more normal situation. Do you agree with

:26:32.:26:36.

that assessment? There are two things here. In terms of the

:26:37.:26:39.

immediate effect on the pound, I think that we can all be, there will

:26:40.:26:48.

be a pound fall,... Will it be as dramatic as George Soros said, 15%?

:26:49.:26:56.

Other areas are forecasting something similar. But the other

:26:57.:27:01.

area is what we might expect in terms of longer-term tariffs and the

:27:02.:27:05.

effect on prices. The leave campaign is now talking about falling out of

:27:06.:27:09.

the single market and facing WTO type tariffs, and that would

:27:10.:27:12.

increase prices in the long run, and I have talked to a lot of businesses

:27:13.:27:17.

who are concerned about the effects of tariffs on prices and what that

:27:18.:27:22.

would do. Given that you previously said that we shouldn't be scared if

:27:23.:27:26.

manufacturing is eliminated if we leave the EU, concentrated on other

:27:27.:27:32.

industries, why should any low paid worker trust you to have their

:27:33.:27:37.

interests at heart? That is a misquote, as you know very well.

:27:38.:27:42.

What I have said is that manufacturing that is unable to

:27:43.:27:46.

compete in the globalised world would be eliminated. I made it quite

:27:47.:27:49.

clear that high-tech manufacturing would thrive, and that is what we

:27:50.:27:55.

are looking for. Our car industry raises productivity, it already

:27:56.:27:58.

sells two thirds of his exports to the world market, and half of our

:27:59.:28:02.

exports overall go to the world market. Manufacturing can compete.

:28:03.:28:06.

It goes upmarket, that is how it works. And what in fact Carolyn

:28:07.:28:11.

misrepresented is, as they always have on this issue, we're talking

:28:12.:28:15.

about eliminating tariffs on our imports, which has a massive effect

:28:16.:28:19.

on the welfare of consumers here, and is the dynamic for the economy.

:28:20.:28:24.

And as for those tariffs on our exports Big E you may or may not

:28:25.:28:31.

slap on, -- that the EU may or may not slap on, and big companies will

:28:32.:28:35.

do it because they don't like the effects of their car experts, but we

:28:36.:28:41.

will get a competitive economy, and manufacturers who are worth their

:28:42.:28:44.

salt will welcome the contribution to raise their game. You said we

:28:45.:28:52.

misquoted you. You did say over time that we would mostly eliminate

:28:53.:28:56.

manufacturing if we left the EU, leaving mostly designed... I'm

:28:57.:29:03.

sorry, if you read more than one sentence, I made it perfectly clear

:29:04.:29:07.

that the hi tech was accepted, and the way in which manufacturing

:29:08.:29:10.

adjusts is through going up in value. That is how the CBI's members

:29:11.:29:16.

have adjusted, that is how the kindest is a world markets. You are

:29:17.:29:21.

talking in a very negative as narrow-minded way. I was trying to

:29:22.:29:25.

raise our eyes to the idea of global competition across our economy to

:29:26.:29:29.

the enormous benefit of our consumers, and we can perfectly well

:29:30.:29:33.

help our manufacturers over this rough patch where they have actually

:29:34.:29:38.

got to face global competition in their home market as well, and why

:29:39.:29:43.

not? Let be put back to Tim McGarry. Do you think people working in

:29:44.:29:46.

manufacturing and other low paid workers should listen to Patrick

:29:47.:29:50.

Minford over Carolyn Fairburn when it comes to talking about their

:29:51.:29:53.

jobs, long-term prosperity and the future? I think they should listen

:29:54.:29:59.

to everybody... That is very diplomatic! And they should also

:30:00.:30:05.

listen to James Dyson, one of our most successful inventors, or

:30:06.:30:07.

Anthony Bamford, head of JCB, Europe's largest construction

:30:08.:30:12.

manufacturer. Lots of businesses, small businesses, big visitors do

:30:13.:30:16.

very well out of the EU, partly because of the cheap labour. Small

:30:17.:30:22.

businesses who don't trade with the EU still have to put up with a lot

:30:23.:30:29.

of the EU regulations. Let me just answer that and then you can come

:30:30.:30:30.

back. This is not true, we have many small

:30:31.:30:40.

members who want to stay. A lot of what you talk about is product

:30:41.:30:45.

standardisation. A cheese manufacturer in Somerset to benefits

:30:46.:30:48.

from the standardisation in standards and packaging, many

:30:49.:30:52.

companies like that. The idea it is all about big business is wrong and

:30:53.:31:02.

it is not borne out... The great opportunity of leaving the EU is

:31:03.:31:06.

nine tenths of growth in exports is with the rest of the world. Europe

:31:07.:31:13.

is a declining part. It is declining twice as fast as America, an

:31:14.:31:20.

equivalent advanced... It is about half and half at the moment. Europe

:31:21.:31:26.

is losing its share. Because it is 28 member states, cannot agree on

:31:27.:31:32.

how to solve the Euro crisis, the refugee... It could not agree trade

:31:33.:31:36.

agreements with China or other parts of the fast-growing world. On our

:31:37.:31:41.

own, able to move in a nimble way, we consign those agreements with the

:31:42.:31:43.

emerging world. MPs and peers gathered

:31:44.:31:45.

in Westminster yesterday for a special recall of Parliament

:31:46.:31:48.

to remember the MP Jo Cox, who was brutally murdered

:31:49.:31:51.

in her constituency of Batley It was an extraordinary occasion

:31:52.:31:53.

with heartfelt tributes from politicians on all sides

:31:54.:32:00.

and a very emotional one for those We have lost one of our own,

:32:01.:32:03.

and our society as a whole has lost We need, Mr Speaker,

:32:04.:32:11.

a kinder and gentler politics. This is not a factional

:32:12.:32:17.

party political point. We all have a responsibility in this

:32:18.:32:24.

House - and beyond - not to whip up Jo was a humanitarian to her core,

:32:25.:32:28.

a passionate and brilliant campaigner whose grit

:32:29.:32:36.

and determination to fight for justice saw her time and time

:32:37.:32:40.

again driving issues up the agenda and making people listen,

:32:41.:32:44.

and above all, act. Quite simply, there are people

:32:45.:32:47.

on our planet today who are only Jo had a way with people,

:32:48.:32:52.

a way of relating to people from all walks of life,

:32:53.:33:00.

and she had a real Jo wanted to make the world fairer,

:33:01.:33:03.

more equal, more tolerant We all have better instincts

:33:04.:33:08.

and deepest fears. Jo appealed to our better instincts,

:33:09.:33:14.

our sense that, as she said in her maiden speech,

:33:15.:33:18.

what we have in common is greater Making common cause with a crusty

:33:19.:33:21.

old Tory, she and I became co-chairs She was the heart and soul of these

:33:22.:33:29.

benches, and we are heartbroken. We loved her every day,

:33:30.:33:38.

and we will miss her every day. She inspired us all,

:33:39.:33:42.

and I swear that we will do everything in our power to make her

:33:43.:33:46.

and her family incredibly proud. There was no dividing line

:33:47.:33:52.

between Jo's maternal heart Her children will grow up

:33:53.:33:54.

to know what an amazing She is such a great

:33:55.:34:01.

loss to our politics, an irreplaceable loss

:34:02.:34:07.

to her family, to whom we send She was always passionate

:34:08.:34:09.

about the issues she cared about, never afraid to stand up for those

:34:10.:34:17.

she felt had no voice, but she was also a proud Yorkshire

:34:18.:34:22.

woman, and our county Mr Speaker, the fearless

:34:23.:34:25.

Jo Cox never stopped She gave voice to the voiceless,

:34:26.:34:31.

she spoke truth to power. She exemplified the best values

:34:32.:34:39.

of our party and of our country, compassion, community,

:34:40.:34:43.

solidarity and internationalism. And she put her convictions to work

:34:44.:34:48.

for everyone she touched. For the people of Batley and Spen,

:34:49.:34:52.

for the wretched of Syria, for victims of violence

:34:53.:34:55.

and injustice everywhere. Spontaneous applause at the end of

:34:56.:35:15.

those heartfelt tributes from MPs following the brutal and tragic

:35:16.:35:16.

murder of the MP Jo Cox last week. Much of the referendum debate has

:35:17.:35:20.

centred on whether it's possible to control immigration whilst

:35:21.:35:23.

remaining a member Here is the Labour leader Jeremy

:35:24.:35:34.

Corbyn on Sunday responding to a question from the BBC's Andrew Marr

:35:35.:35:38.

about whether he thought they should be any upper limit on migration to

:35:39.:35:40.

this country. I don't think you can have one

:35:41.:35:41.

while you have a free movement of labour and I think the free

:35:42.:35:44.

movement of labour means that you have to balance the economy

:35:45.:35:47.

so you have to improve living So that means the European Union's

:35:48.:35:50.

appalling treatment of Greece, particularly the European Central

:35:51.:35:54.

Bank, as well as the European Union, If you actually deliberately lower

:35:55.:35:57.

living standards and increase poverty in certain countries

:35:58.:36:03.

in south-east or Eastern Europe, then you're bound to have a flow

:36:04.:36:07.

of people looking for somewhere Surely the issue is

:36:08.:36:10.

an anti-austerity, a growth package Now, that was seen as a gaffe

:36:11.:36:14.

by some observers - a Remain campaigner appearing

:36:15.:36:22.

to admit that immigration could not But what if you don't believe

:36:23.:36:24.

in controlling immigration and that Well, the Anglican priest

:36:25.:36:29.

and commentator Giles Fraser Tim Montgomerie has said that

:36:30.:36:34.

controlling immigration is the most important

:36:35.:36:38.

issue in the referendum. Both are in favour

:36:39.:36:40.

of leaving the EU. Tim Montgomerie, Giles Frazer Wright

:36:41.:36:53.

is critically, in this era of advance globalisation we believe in

:36:54.:36:57.

free trade, free movement of goods that not in the free movement of

:36:58.:37:01.

labour. That describes you. Why does your liberalism stop at national

:37:02.:37:07.

borders? Because it is about managing situations. I am sure Giles

:37:08.:37:13.

would not necessarily except one, two million, 3 million people coming

:37:14.:37:17.

into Britain at one point because it would overwhelm public services and

:37:18.:37:22.

communities. We should be a country that welcomes refugees and is open

:37:23.:37:28.

to humanitarian responsibilities. People are confident about playing

:37:29.:37:32.

the humanitarian role if they know the government of not letting in

:37:33.:37:36.

undesirables, that they monitor refugees, could not be including

:37:37.:37:46.

terrorists for example. Should there be an upper limit? I am not

:37:47.:37:50.

convinced there should be. It would take 3 million? I do not think that

:37:51.:37:55.

will happen, it is a fantasy figure will stop I think that is

:37:56.:38:00.

scaremongering. We have not had this obsession with borders in this

:38:01.:38:07.

country, it is only 100 years since we had immigration controls, which

:38:08.:38:10.

we started having because people were terrified of the amount of

:38:11.:38:13.

Jewish people coming to this country, that is how it started.

:38:14.:38:18.

There is a racist element about border controls, as there was then

:38:19.:38:24.

and as there is now. A lot of the fear is that there will be the other

:38:25.:38:31.

who will come to swamp us. I think it is a fantasy. You believe that

:38:32.:38:37.

people like Tim Montgomerie who say they should be managed, our races? I

:38:38.:38:42.

think Tim is right about this, we should be in control of our borders.

:38:43.:38:51.

I think... I want to make the case we should be in control of them and

:38:52.:38:54.

it should be democratically decided and we should be... I may be an

:38:55.:39:02.

extremist on this, but we could be more generous than now and we should

:39:03.:39:06.

be generous particularly to people from outside the EU. The EU itself

:39:07.:39:11.

is shockingly bad on migrants and migration. That is where I agreed.

:39:12.:39:15.

Would you like to see greater numbers, perhaps equal numbers,

:39:16.:39:23.

equal numbers in hundreds of thousands of people from outside the

:39:24.:39:26.

EU? I will not say whether it is equal or not but where I agree with

:39:27.:39:33.

Giles, I think he might live in fantasies land on his general

:39:34.:39:37.

position but an Indian, Australian, South African, should not have

:39:38.:39:41.

second-class status when it comes to entering Britain compared to a

:39:42.:39:44.

French or German person. The problem is not little England, but European.

:39:45.:39:55.

It has become inward looking as a continent. As Giles said, border

:39:56.:40:02.

controls have always been racist, going back to the 30s, not allowing

:40:03.:40:08.

Jewish people escaping Germany. With all due respect... You know when

:40:09.:40:13.

someone says that... Accusing people who worry about immigration of

:40:14.:40:17.

racism, of course there is some races and it is unfair, opinion

:40:18.:40:22.

polls, every ethnic minority community of Britain is opposed to

:40:23.:40:26.

large-scale immigration. It is not about the colour of the skin or

:40:27.:40:29.

religion of the immigrant, it is about the scale. You are one of

:40:30.:40:37.

those people who floats around the world on your passport because you

:40:38.:40:40.

are back and forth. Borders mean nothing to you because you are

:40:41.:40:49.

wealthy enough. African farmers, people in poor countries, for whom

:40:50.:40:53.

borders mean something, Syrian, they mean nothing to us. There is

:40:54.:40:59.

definitely... It is about penning the poor people into poverty. What

:41:00.:41:04.

about community cohesion, that must be something you worry about. There

:41:05.:41:09.

are risks outlined by some people that if you don't have it managed,

:41:10.:41:15.

you will need a breakdown. What has happened in the referendum is a

:41:16.:41:20.

classic example. There is a large group of people who feel completely

:41:21.:41:24.

they have not been listened to and they are not attended to and they

:41:25.:41:28.

are readily exploited by those who want to go... This is all about this

:41:29.:41:38.

scary other immigrant. I think their anxiety is more about jobs, housing,

:41:39.:41:42.

the real thing is for people. I think people in this country are not

:41:43.:41:46.

concerned about the colour of the skin about the person living next

:41:47.:41:50.

door to them. So they are not racist, you have contradicted

:41:51.:41:56.

yourself? I think the idea we have to insist on our borders, there is

:41:57.:42:00.

something racist about that, that we have to build up a moat. I do not

:42:01.:42:07.

think British people are racist, I think that this is being exploited

:42:08.:42:13.

by people like Nigel Farage, there is a genuine feeling of anger that

:42:14.:42:22.

people have not been listened to which is being exploited and changed

:42:23.:42:26.

and shifted in this debate over the referendum. If you think it is a key

:42:27.:42:30.

issue, immigration. The polls seem to bear that out. You think on

:42:31.:42:36.

balance when it is stood alongside the economy and the value of the

:42:37.:42:41.

muddy in people'spocket, that will trump issues of immigration -- value

:42:42.:42:49.

of money. People can see both sides of the economic debate is balance.

:42:50.:42:52.

There are costs of leaving the single market. I also think they can

:42:53.:43:00.

see the advantages of having better connections with fast-growing parts

:43:01.:43:02.

of the world. The economic argument is muddy for people. But there

:43:03.:43:11.

of the world. The economic argument only one way we can get control of

:43:12.:43:13.

borders and that is to leave the EU. That is one big factor in this

:43:14.:43:18.

debate in a debate with few facts. If we have that control, Giles can

:43:19.:43:22.

stand on his manifesto of letting anybody in and I will stand on mine

:43:23.:43:28.

of controlling. We could see who could get more votes. We will do

:43:29.:43:33.

of controlling. We could see who that! If you are in a position of

:43:34.:43:37.

principal about this. I am flagging up a principle and these principles

:43:38.:43:42.

the west has had. Look on the Statue of Liberty and the moving quote,

:43:43.:43:50.

bring me your huddled masses. No one is living up to that because they

:43:51.:43:54.

are building a fence around it to stop Mexicans coming in. What about

:43:55.:43:59.

the tone, has it been what you would like to hear on the immigration

:44:00.:44:05.

debate? No. All sides of this debate in different ways have sometimes let

:44:06.:44:12.

themselves down. I think the Nigel Farage poster that has been

:44:13.:44:18.

controversial was not acceptable. It was not factual. It portrayed dark

:44:19.:44:22.

skinned people trying to get into Britain when they were not even

:44:23.:44:27.

trying to get into Europe. It was not acceptable, that aspect of the

:44:28.:44:33.

debate. Just because the poster ad Nigel Farage has behaved

:44:34.:44:40.

inappropriately, it does not mean working-class communities seeing

:44:41.:44:44.

their wages depressed, that is not racist, it is a reasonable concern

:44:45.:44:47.

about immigration's impact on local economies.

:44:48.:44:54.

Giles Fraser, thank you for coming in.

:44:55.:44:57.

Now, there's been name calling, furious briefing

:44:58.:44:59.

So can the Tory party put itself back together

:45:00.:45:02.

after Thursday's referendum - and how?

:45:03.:45:03.

In a moment, we'll be joined by the leading

:45:04.:45:06.

Conservative Remain campaigner, who's being making his case forcibly

:45:07.:45:12.

on social media - Nicholas Soames - first here's a little reminder

:45:13.:45:15.

of the less obliging things Conservatives have

:45:16.:45:17.

I think the strain of the campaign is

:45:18.:45:22.

Lord Heseltine is a frightful old humbug who divided

:45:23.:45:26.

the Conservative Party more than anybody else in our modern

:45:27.:45:29.

history, and a period of silence on his part would be welcome.

:45:30.:45:32.

I must say, it is always good to hear voices from the past.

:45:33.:45:35.

I'd be grateful if they remained in the past.

:45:36.:45:37.

Well, he's the life and soul of the party.

:45:38.:45:46.

But he's not the man you want driving you home

:45:47.:45:48.

The Chancellor bascially needs to calm down and regrettably

:45:49.:45:55.

When I heard that, I did think of Pinocchio and the nose

:45:56.:46:02.

Unfortunately, those of us at the outset with that very

:46:03.:46:10.

clear, inclusive, moderate vision for Brexit have, over time,

:46:11.:46:15.

been taken over by a message which is divisive,

:46:16.:46:17.

which is inward-looking, which is xenophobic.

:46:18.:46:18.

Well, Nicholas Soames is with us here. There are two letters

:46:19.:46:38.

circulating in Tory circles that have been reported, one calling for

:46:39.:46:41.

a vote of no-confidence in David Cameron's leadership. Are the people

:46:42.:46:46.

who have signed it treacherous? I think it is up to them whether they

:46:47.:46:51.

signed a letter or not. It is not something I would personally do, and

:46:52.:46:55.

I think it is very unhelpful, and as we have no idea how matters will

:46:56.:46:59.

turnout, I think it is a foolish thing to do, but it is well known

:47:00.:47:05.

that there are people who have had it in the David Cameron since the

:47:06.:47:08.

day he was elected. My colleague Nadine Dorries put her objection

:47:09.:47:19.

into the Prime Minister within a week of

:47:20.:47:27.

him being in government. I am a fan of the Prime Minister, and he has

:47:28.:47:30.

already announced he will leave before the next election, so what is

:47:31.:47:36.

the point? There is another letter saying that the Prime Minister must

:47:37.:47:41.

stay in situ, but it does indicate the bad blood that is running

:47:42.:47:46.

through the Conservative Party? I am an agnostic on this, because I think

:47:47.:47:51.

there is a bad blood, a bit of bad blood, but by and large, this has

:47:52.:47:58.

not been as bad as Maastricht. You don't think it is as bad? That was a

:47:59.:48:04.

matter for the House of Commons. This is a fundamental disagreement

:48:05.:48:07.

throughout the country. This isn't just in the House of Commons. OK,

:48:08.:48:12.

there is some bad blood around, but it is not blood that is bad enough

:48:13.:48:17.

for us not to come together on a big agenda. Do you agree with that? I

:48:18.:48:21.

don't think John Major has ever really forgiven Iain Duncan Smith as

:48:22.:48:26.

example of post Maastricht relations. Do you think this will

:48:27.:48:32.

really change whatever the result? I don't think it will be easy, because

:48:33.:48:36.

this has been a massive national debate, but one of the advantages

:48:37.:48:41.

the Conservative Party has, Conservative minded people like me

:48:42.:48:46.

can see Michael Gove and Boris Johnson, which I'm sure if David

:48:47.:48:49.

Cameron is why is coming he will bring in in some form, people like

:48:50.:48:56.

Nicolas who support Remain, they concede David Cameron George

:48:57.:48:59.

Osborne, we have people who, if the party does form a broad cabinet

:49:00.:49:05.

after this, we can see our people at the top. The contrast with the

:49:06.:49:09.

Labour Party is the huge number of working-class Labour supporters who

:49:10.:49:13.

are voting to leave, there is almost no one at the top of the Labour

:49:14.:49:16.

Party that represents them. There has been a lot of focus on the

:49:17.:49:19.

problems is that the Conservative Party, but it may well be that the

:49:20.:49:23.

Labour Party loses a lot of its supporters' trust because of the

:49:24.:49:26.

referendum. We're talking about the politicians and the people in the

:49:27.:49:30.

Cabinet at the moment of the MPs that do or don't support them. From

:49:31.:49:35.

the outside, Carolyn, are you frightened about what might happen

:49:36.:49:37.

after the result, whether leave or remain wins in terms of political

:49:38.:49:44.

stability? It is a concern to business, because the uncertainty

:49:45.:49:46.

that has already been created could be perpetuated by the politics after

:49:47.:49:52.

whatever outcome we see. That said, I think businesses are very used to

:49:53.:49:56.

working with whatever kind of political environment that they

:49:57.:49:59.

find, and I think one of the things that they are going to want to try

:50:00.:50:02.

to do is see as much stability as quickly as possible. Let's assume

:50:03.:50:07.

Remain wins a narrow victory, will Conservative backbenchers accept

:50:08.:50:11.

that result, those who have campaigned so vociferously for At?

:50:12.:50:16.

They have said that the result is the result. And I agree exactly with

:50:17.:50:22.

Tim, I think he is very right, that the Prime Minister, he is a bigger

:50:23.:50:27.

man, and it will be a magnanimous and proper reshuffle, which will

:50:28.:50:32.

reflect all wings of the party. So having Michael Gove sitting in the

:50:33.:50:36.

Cabinet... I'm sure that will happen, but the most important thing

:50:37.:50:41.

is that there is a major agenda of social justice reform which the

:50:42.:50:46.

whole Tory party want to rally behind, and that includes prison

:50:47.:50:49.

reform, further stuff on education, an allsorts of stuff that we haven't

:50:50.:50:53.

done well enough on yet, and which need doing. And you will need

:50:54.:50:56.

support from that, and support from your own site, because there is a

:50:57.:51:00.

small majority. If one accuses political rivals of being liars,

:51:01.:51:04.

read Tories, you are talking nonsense, misleading the voters, it

:51:05.:51:08.

creates a poisonous atmosphere, and you yourself have lost your temper a

:51:09.:51:17.

couple of times. Could you serve in a party where Eurosceptics were

:51:18.:51:23.

driving is out of the EU? I lost my temper with Boris when he said

:51:24.:51:26.

something foolish about my grandfather, but he is a good friend

:51:27.:51:29.

and I am having dinner with him next week. We are on opposite sides, but

:51:30.:51:35.

this is not a civil war, it is a disagreement, and I predict to you,

:51:36.:51:38.

Jo, that the party will come together whatever the result,

:51:39.:51:41.

because it always does and because it has two. I fixed the problem is

:51:42.:51:45.

that the Tories do have a narrow majority anyway. Even before the

:51:46.:51:52.

referendum began, you saw rebellion on tax credits, on disability. The

:51:53.:51:54.

particular problem isn't the social justice system, which the

:51:55.:51:58.

Conservative Party can unite behind, it is the unfinished work of deficit

:51:59.:52:03.

reduction. It is the unfinished work of economic policy. The wisest thing

:52:04.:52:07.

the Prime Minister will do assuming he hangs on his move George Osborne.

:52:08.:52:13.

He has become a particular source of disunity. I think he should move to

:52:14.:52:18.

the Foreign Office, it is in his own long-term interests if he wants to

:52:19.:52:24.

be leader. Do you agree with that? These are matters for the Prime

:52:25.:52:29.

Minister. As it so happens, I think George Osborne would be a

:52:30.:52:31.

first-class Foreign Secretary, I think he has been a first-class

:52:32.:52:37.

Chancellor. But would he be moved, sacrificed? Some of the great

:52:38.:52:41.

offices of state will be freed up to allow others to come in, and I think

:52:42.:52:44.

that is a fact of life. Nicholas Soames, thank you. Thank you.

:52:45.:52:48.

Now, did I mention that there's a big debate -

:52:49.:52:50.

a Great Debate, indeed - being broadcast live

:52:51.:52:52.

from Wembley on BBC One at 8pm this evening?

:52:53.:52:54.

It's already hosted boxing and wrestling this year,

:52:55.:52:59.

and Wembley Arena is getting ready for the biggest tussle

:53:00.:53:02.

In the Remain corner, the Scottish Conservative

:53:03.:53:04.

leader, Ruth Davidson, the Mayor of London,

:53:05.:53:08.

Sadiq Khan, and the TUC general secretary, Frances O'Grady.

:53:09.:53:12.

In the Leave corner, the Labour MP Gisela Stuart,

:53:13.:53:15.

the energy minister Andrea Leadsom and him.

:53:16.:53:19.

This is the dressing room that Boris Johnson will be using.

:53:20.:53:21.

It is surprisingly unglamorous, but in the interests of balance,

:53:22.:53:26.

I'm reliably informed there will be some snacks on this table

:53:27.:53:31.

At least there's a mirror with showbiz lights round it.

:53:32.:53:36.

Then the walk through here, through these doors

:53:37.:53:38.

Up here on the main stage, the Remainers will be on one side.

:53:39.:53:50.

The Leavers will make their case on the opposite side.

:53:51.:53:53.

I think these guys will be finished by then.

:53:54.:53:55.

David Dimbleby will chair things from here.

:53:56.:53:58.

Each side will also be able to make an opening and closing statement,

:53:59.:54:01.

which they will deliver from here to the audience out there.

:54:02.:54:04.

They're split 50/50 between Leave and Remain,

:54:05.:54:11.

and unlike a football match, everyone will be sitting

:54:12.:54:13.

Each section of the debate will start with some questions

:54:14.:54:17.

from the audience on subjects like immigration or the economy.

:54:18.:54:19.

This is the second stage, where each campaign will have five

:54:20.:54:27.

more representatives drawn from the other political

:54:28.:54:30.

parties and the worlds of business and journalism.

:54:31.:54:32.

Across the road from the arena is this building,

:54:33.:54:38.

It seems pretty quiet now, but soon there will be about 200

:54:39.:54:43.

hacks and spokespeople in here, because it's the spin room.

:54:44.:54:48.

And because we are scrupulously impartial in this sensitive

:54:49.:54:50.

political period, at the same time on ITV,

:54:51.:54:54.

it's Spain versus Croatia, and Channel 4 has a house

:54:55.:54:56.

Well, Adam obviously enjoying himself. It will be very exciting.

:54:57.:55:10.

Now, time to find out the answer to our quiz.

:55:11.:55:13.

The question was which of these moggies wants out?

:55:14.:55:17.

Of the EU, that is, not just out of the house!

:55:18.:55:21.

So, Tim and Carolyn, what's the correct answer?

:55:22.:55:29.

I think it is D. I think it is real grumpy cat. It is in fact the right

:55:30.:55:43.

answer. Look at that face! What are you saying, you have to be grumpy to

:55:44.:55:50.

be voting out? I recognise Dan Hammond, and I can't believe he

:55:51.:55:55.

would have a cat in favour of Britain staying in the EU.

:55:56.:56:00.

Yes, that's Leave campaigner Dan Hannan with his cat.

:56:01.:56:02.

Because the fur has been flying on Twitter, with rival sides

:56:03.:56:05.

in the referendum debate posting pics of their moggies

:56:06.:56:07.

claiming their feline friends share their own views on the EU.

:56:08.:56:10.

Kate Bevan and her cat Daphne. They have been supporting the Cats

:56:11.:56:20.

against Brexit campaign, and James is here with his cat, they are

:56:21.:56:29.

supporting Cats for Brexit. If you follow her cat flap on Twitter, you

:56:30.:56:37.

can see her being mostly in other than out, she's burned a lot of time

:56:38.:56:41.

on the sofa, and she is worried about her cat supplies from the EU.

:56:42.:56:45.

How do you know that your cat prefers out? My cat is

:56:46.:56:52.

pro-immigration, she was a rescue cat, and she is internationalist,

:56:53.:56:55.

she is often seen in the neighbours' Gardens, and she doesn't like the

:56:56.:56:59.

cage of Fortress Europe as you can see here, she feels that it is

:57:00.:57:04.

somewhat stacked against in terms of the fat cats who bully her with

:57:05.:57:13.

stories of recessions in cat food. I wonder how long you have been

:57:14.:57:16.

preparing these answers and watching their behaviour! What difference

:57:17.:57:20.

does it make whether we are a night of Europe as opposed to the

:57:21.:57:23.

contented lives of all the cats I know? Generali, I am in favour of

:57:24.:57:28.

staying in Europe, because I think there is a lot to be said for free

:57:29.:57:32.

movement of labour and free movement of cats across garden fences. I can

:57:33.:57:36.

see the free movement of your cat, who has just wandered off! The crew

:57:37.:57:42.

will have to look after, look out for her later. I think she cares

:57:43.:57:48.

about is in the house, and she wants to have a happy house, and we are

:57:49.:57:52.

excited about Thursday, and I hope she is, to. So do you think the cats

:57:53.:57:58.

feeling tense atmosphere? Do they react to their owners? I will take

:57:59.:58:06.

her away from Tim, because I think he is a little allergic. Do they

:58:07.:58:12.

notice if things are uptight in the house? I'm not so sure. And do she

:58:13.:58:17.

respond to the atmosphere? She has been an social media making sure

:58:18.:58:20.

people know where she stands on this thing. She is very clear about it.

:58:21.:58:25.

She wants plenty of fish coming into the country, no restrictions are

:58:26.:58:32.

plenty of catnip coming in. In the interest of BBC ballads, will dogs

:58:33.:58:37.

be featured tomorrow? You can write to the programme editor! Has it

:58:38.:58:42.

persuaded you at all. I had a long conversation with my cats that

:58:43.:58:45.

morning about the economic case, and they are definitely in! They

:58:46.:58:46.

probably ran out! The one o'clock news is starting

:58:47.:58:48.

over on BBC One now. It has been a ten Mac One Show! I

:58:49.:59:01.

had to get

:59:02.:59:02.

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