20/06/2016 Daily Politics


20/06/2016

Jo Coburn is joined by Nick Herbert and Kate Hoey to discuss the EU referendum. Plus the latest on the death of Labour MP Jo Cox as MPs prepare to pay tribute in Parliament.


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Transcript


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:39.:00:40.

Immigration takes centre stage in the EU referendum debate

:00:41.:00:43.

again as David Cameron and Boris Johnson are forced

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Parliament is recalled to allow MPs and peers to pay tribute to Labour

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We'll hear from some of those who worked with her.

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Could Britain look a bit like this if we vote to Leave on Thursday?

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A Norwegian politician tells us why we have nothing fear

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from life outside the EU. And as the UK embarks

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upon a new chapter, we look back at Britain's ambivalent

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All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole

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of the programme today are the Labour MP and Leave

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campaigner, Kate Hoey and the Remain Campaigner

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First this afternoon, Turkey and its prospects of joining

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the European Union have become the issue in the campaign again.

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Last night, David Cameron faced a Question Time audience.

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This is what he had to say on the question of whether he would

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If this was going to happen in the next couple of years

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I would not support it, but it's not going to.

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This is about 30, 40 years' time and I'm not going to be

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Prime Minister in 30 or 40 years' time.

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As I say, people who have decided to vote Leave,

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obviously it's a choice, it's a referendum, but to do it

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on the basis of Turkey joining the EU, you'd be voting to leave

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an organisation, to damage our economy, on the basis of something

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Nick Herbert, David Cameron says it is a lie that Turkey is about to

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join the EU so why is there, according to the British Embassy in

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Ankara, a dedicated team working on projects to improve Turkey's

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prospect of joining the EU? That is from the Amazon itself. I think it's

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simply not true that they are imminently going to join the EU or

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that it is likely to happen in the disabled future, perhaps not in my

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little lifetime, perhaps not the decades. This has been going since

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1977, Turkey has got to go through an enormous number of procedures

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before it could qualify to join. Why didn't David Cameron rule it out?

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Diplomatically, it makes sense to try to move Turkey more towards the

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West and that has been agreed by all sides for very long time including

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prominent leave campaigners who are now installing virtues of this like

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Boris himself. Would that decide it? The problem is the Prime Minister

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feels to rule it out implies the Simonet and that he was therefore

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ruling out something that was imminently going to happen. It is

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not. No cereus person thinks this will happen for decades. Of course,

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every country has a veto and it is very likely that other countries

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would veto Turkey's membership. This is a red herring, as we have seen

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the red herring of the EU army, the amount we allegedly sent to

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Brussels. Identity why the Leave campaign cannot campaign on the true

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issues, rather than invent all of these scare stories, in -- imminent

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prospect of things happening that are not going to people know it's

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not true. But it is government policy as it stands. It has been

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since the 80s, the policy of all governments to move Turkey to the

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position, and that clearly, diplomatically make sense to try to

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get them to embrace human rights and so on. It obviously makes sense.

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It's not working. Yes, they are moving in the opposite direction so

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they are moving further away from the prospect of joining the EU. Kate

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Hoey, it's not going to happen, you can't sit and they Turkey is about

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the joint EU. The point is, David Cameron goodwill it out because it

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is EU policy for Teddy and four other countries, including Macedonia

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and Albania, who are ahead of deadly. But daddy is the country

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your campaign has put on posters. They have mentioned all the

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countries, actually, I know I have. The veto thing, which Nick said is

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our great weapon, we know what happens within the European Union,

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vetoes, countries are literally bought off, they are bought off,

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there are one or two countries who don't want another to join and then

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it comes to the situation and they all, because they are part of a

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club, they will eventually come round to what the commission has

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decided. Is it imminent? Are they going to join in the next year? If

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we vote to leave, on Thursday, we are not going to be leaving

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imminently either come it will take awhile for the details to be worked

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out. I think we are quite right to say this is an absolute possibility,

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that it will happen in the near future. But an absolute possibility

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it might happen in the future is not the same as saying that they are to

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join? Do you agree that is scaremongering? I've not personally

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got up and said Turkey will join tomorrow. They have been trying

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since 1980s in. The way Europe works, the viewers need to

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understand that it is a way of working which, once the commission

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has decided something is going to happen, by hook or by crook, they

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get it to happen. We will not, as one country out of 28, be able to

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stop that happening. Of course we can, we can veto it. We will not

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stop it happening. If at the time we decided the wrong thing, we have a

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veto and all the other countries that have major concerns like France

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will have a veto so the idea they will get browbeating is nonsense.

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It's not going to happen and the campaign knows it. Going on to

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business, there's been a line-up of businesses and the executive

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chairman of the Premier League calling for people to vote Remain,

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Richard screwed a more telling the BBC every Premier League club wants

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Britain to remain in the EU. Sir Richard Branson has warned that

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Brexit would be devastating for the long-term prosperity to the UK.

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Nissan, Jaguar Land Rover, Toyota and BMW as well. That's quite a

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persuasive list. And I'm sure tomorrow we will get another list of

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people coming out. I'm sure the Prime Minister has something to pull

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out of the hat. I thought you meant your site... Shouldn't businesses

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have a say? Small businesses are not represented by people like Richard

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Branson and Toyota. Small businesses are very keen to get rid of the

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regulations and the directives that have really affected them. How many

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small businesses? I don't... We know on Thursday, this idea in the media

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that everyone always have to have exactly this and that. If you are

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claiming small businesses, you sound like you are saying all small

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businesses. I know that small businesses in Northern Ireland, in

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the end, they were not able to take a position to say they wanted to

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Remain because small businesses did not want it to happen. How crucial

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is the campaign to get big businesses, because they are, the

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ones I have met, to get big business leaders to say you must remain? It's

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not just big business, it's big and small and the CBI survey of small

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businesses than a substantial majority, 80% saying they wanted to

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remain. It is not just those that read with Europe, either, numerous

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that they are. It is also the concern about the wider stability of

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the economy. It is quite wrong to say that there is some how a divide

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between big and small business on this. There is widespread concern.

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Some big businesses also want to leave. You have to be careful...

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Don't talk over each other. We have to be get for not present a

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distorted picture. Some may take a different view and they are entitled

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to it but the vast majority want remain and it is not just businesses

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but trade union leaders as well. You were mentioning some of the big

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businesses. There are some very big businesses and entrepreneurial

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businesses, dyes and sell more vacuum cleaners in Germany than any

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of the other manufacturers of vacuum cleaners, there are some huge

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companies that want... Some. In the end, these decisions are taken by

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those running those businesses and it is in big business' interest to

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stay in the EU because they stop the competition from the smaller

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companies and businesses and the global corporations can drive down

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the wages of working people. This is... Is that what is happening? Is

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this the kind of campaign that feeds this idea that Remain is about

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elitism, about big business? It just isn't true, Beattie wrote to

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employees with its trade unions, having consulted about this, the

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trade unions themselves are campaigning against... A majority of

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them are, like the majority of businesses are concerned. Of the

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smaller and medium-sized businesses in my constituency, a engineering

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company growing and employing 300 people locally and they are

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desperately concerned because they export to the EU. The idea this is

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all about big this... It is about jobs and livelihoods. I know people

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who are still tied in with all those regulations who support leaving. We

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are going to leave it there for the moment because we've got the whole

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programme to do this. The question for today is former

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Conservative Party Chairman, Baroness Warsi announced her

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defection this morning, but what has she apparently

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defected from and to? Was it a) from the Conservative

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Party to the Labour Party, b) from supporting Bradford Bulls

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rugby league team to Leeds Rhinos, c) from Vote Leave to

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the Remain Campaign, or d) from the Rebel Alliance

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to the Dark Side in Star Wars? At the end of the show,

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Nick and Kate will give Yes, you can save your mirth and

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jokes for the end! Immigration is centre stage again

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in the Referendum debate today, with campaigners on both sides

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of the debate being forced to defend Yesterday, Jeremy Corbyn told

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the BBC there could be no upper limit on the number of people coming

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into the UK while freedom And last night, the Prime Minister

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struggled to defend his record on immigration, describing

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the Conservatives' manifesto pledge to keep annual net migration

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"in the tens of thousands" as an "ambition" rather

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than a commitment. Remain campaigner Gisela Stuart

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called on David Cameron to abandon this manifesto pledge if he wins

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the referendum on Thursday, saying he cannot continue

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to promise to do something Overall net migration

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currently stands at 333,000, Ukip, who are also campaigning

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to leave the EU, have been widely criticised after unveiling a poster

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showing a queue of migrants and refugees with the slogan

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"Breaking Point". Nigel Farage defended the poster,

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saying "It was the truth. It was the direct result

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of what Angela Merkel But yesterday, Vote Leave's Boris

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Johnson tried to calm the immigration row,

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telling a rally in London he was pro-immigration

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and pro-immigrants, and calling for an amnesty for illegal migrants

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who have been in the UK Nick Herbert, is designer Stuart

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writes to call on the Prime Minister to abandon that target of reducing

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net migration to the tens of thousands if he wins the referendum?

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Know, and the Prime Minister repeated what was in the manifesto,

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the wording ambition was in the manifesto and it remains the

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ambition. Once the euro zone economies get going again, then it

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would be perfectly possible to achieve it. What we know has

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happened is that only in relatively recent years, as our economy been

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going so well after the recovery, we created 2.4 million jobs, the vast

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majority for UK nationals and the Eurozone economies have been flat

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and had real difficulties. People have been coming to work. The point

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the Prime Minister keeps making is that the wrong way to deal with the

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pressures of net migration, he's announced what I think is the right

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way which is lots of benefit changes to make things fairer. The wrong way

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would be to quit the single market, with damage to Aragon me, damage --

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our economy, damage to growth in the economy and damage to living

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standards and our ability to fund public services. That is not what

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the British public want when they raise perfectly legitimate concerns

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about migration levels. Why do you want to stick to a target of tens of

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thousands in terms of net migration? You are nowhere near it, you've

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never been near it and in fact, it's been going in one direction. You've

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made a promise you cannot keep if Britain stays in the EU. Believe we

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can, that's not true. You can still get down to the tens of thousands in

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ten years? 20 years? The Prime Minister has not said when because

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it's not fully within our control and partly depends on people leaving

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the country, of course. As recently as 2008, migration from the EU was

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within balance which shows you can do it, over half of the level of net

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migration at the moment is fully within our control because it comes

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from outside the EU. And which way is that going as well? As the Prime

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Minister said, it is challenging to control that as well but remember,

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Michael Gove... It's a worthless target because all you do is raise

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expectations. I'm surprised that Gisela Stuart said we should abandon

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it because Michael Gove said that would be the Leave campaign's

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target, that level of net migration as well which presumably means he

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was trying to reduce migration from outside the EU which is fully within

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our control. Let's take Nick Herbert's point, we come out of the

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EU and therefore, we are not bound by freedom of movement, net

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migration could still be close to 200,000 per year. Is that what you

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would expect? I think the point is that then, we as a country decide

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Hammond people we want to come and we can be tougher or less tough,

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depending on the kind of skills we need and what we want in terms of

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numbers. -- can decide how many people. Nobody on the Leave side

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that I have come across is against immigration but what we can't have

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is 27 other countries being able to come into this country without

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any... And people from here can go to all of those countries. Without

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any idea of how many are coming and we discriminate against the rest of

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the world. Would you like to see more people come from outside the

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EU? Yes, I would I would like to see some of my Afro-Caribbean and Asian

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constituents being able to bring people in if they have the right

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skills and we need them. That is why the Australian type, I would call it

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the British points system would be a really good system. It has not

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worked particularly well until now. It has in Australia. But we have a

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points system here. Nick knows because he was in the Home Office

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that one time, you know, I have constituents who were due to be

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deported, 12, 13, 14 years ago and have never been deported. There are

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all these people in this country who have been here a very long time and

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if we were to leave, I think the idea that those people who have been

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here a very long time and you can't work and who are contributing

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nothing should actually be able to stay here. So you would support the

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amnesty? It's an interesting idea and it is certainly clear that we

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are not against immigration but we want to control it into the country.

:15:50.:15:56.

Jeremy Corbyn was being truthful yesterday when he said there cannot

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be an upper limit of migration because we can't control it. That is

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actually the truth. Freedom of movement from within the EU. That's

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fundamental to being in a single market. So why don't you say that?

:16:12.:16:18.

That is a fundamental freedom. What the Prime Minister has said is you

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have a right to work and you do not have a right to claim and therefore

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the changes that he announced our common-sense. They are that you have

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to do be looking for work, you can't get benefit while you're looking for

:16:32.:16:34.

work, if we don't go job within six months... You can get benefits after

:16:35.:16:41.

three months. He changed it so you don't claim benefits. That's not

:16:42.:16:46.

what David Cameron has said. Well common-sense measures which people

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would say is common-sense. Kate made two very interesting claims that you

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would like to see migration from outside EU which already means more

:16:55.:16:58.

than half of our migration, go up. She wanted to increased. And the

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second thing, she said nobody on the Leave side of anti-migration for the

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new Tallaght to Nigel Farage. She is talking about the Vote Leave

:17:11.:17:14.

campaign. I'm differentiating between migrants and asylum seekers

:17:15.:17:18.

and refugees. That is where this whole debate has got confused.

:17:19.:17:23.

Between genuine refugees and asylum seekers. Do you agree Nigel Farage

:17:24.:17:31.

has confused that? That same poster appeared on the front pages of

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newspapers. Did you support that newspaper? Breaking point? I think

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it was a ridiculously drawn up poster because it did not explain

:17:41.:17:43.

the core issue but it was on the front page of all these issues for

:17:44.:17:46.

weeks and weeks. It is a shameful poster. Michael Gove said he

:17:47.:17:53.

shuddered. It was... I would not have anything to do with that

:17:54.:17:59.

poster. Good for you. What we cannot allow is people who feel very

:18:00.:18:03.

strongly in their communities how immigration is change their lives

:18:04.:18:09.

and their whole culture, that has to be stopped, because people are being

:18:10.:18:14.

called racist. I have met so many Labour voters out there who feel

:18:15.:18:17.

they have not been listened to, they are being told they are ignorant,

:18:18.:18:21.

stupid, racist, and all they are trying to save is now what

:18:22.:18:27.

respectable politicians, even like you are saying, or others, we have

:18:28.:18:31.

to talk about immigration in a sensible way because this country

:18:32.:18:34.

has to look at it. I completely agree. That's very different to

:18:35.:18:38.

shameful posters like that. It is not just Ukip doing this. They have

:18:39.:18:46.

been some absolutely shameful exploitation is by all the

:18:47.:18:48.

campaigners. Can you give me some examples? Vote Leave, after the sex

:18:49.:18:55.

attackers, same with coming to this country. Who said that? The Leave

:18:56.:19:03.

Campaign. After the Orlando shootings, the most despicable ad

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suggesting that might happen as a result of the EU membership here as

:19:08.:19:11.

well. There has been shameful exploitation of people's fears and

:19:12.:19:14.

that's not the right way to talk about it. Hang on, Nick Herbert, can

:19:15.:19:21.

I talk to your game because you say Jeremy Corbyn was right, so would

:19:22.:19:27.

you now say there can be no upper limit on net migration from the EU

:19:28.:19:32.

while we remember? It is part of fundamental freedoms of the EU that

:19:33.:19:36.

people come over and have the right to work. But it's not a right to

:19:37.:19:40.

claim. And we do have full control over those non-EU migrants and we

:19:41.:19:46.

control our borders. Not the EU migrants? So there could be no upper

:19:47.:19:50.

limits? Just like Germany, France, Spain can't stop UK nationals, over

:19:51.:19:56.

1 million, living and working in a EU. Let's remember that. That's part

:19:57.:20:01.

of the single market. If we are outside the single market, there is

:20:02.:20:04.

going to be economic damage and fewer jobs for people and lower

:20:05.:20:08.

wages for people than they would have had otherwise. And less money

:20:09.:20:11.

for public services. That is fundamentally important point. Free

:20:12.:20:17.

trade areas, America, Mexico, and they don't have this. I mean, this

:20:18.:20:25.

idea that somehow the only part of the world doing this right is these

:20:26.:20:30.

28 countries in the EU, rest of the world manages to trade, free trade

:20:31.:20:35.

deals, the political structure. We are used to being in the poetical

:20:36.:20:40.

single market. I'm going to stop you there because we're going to do a

:20:41.:20:43.

bit more on the economy in just a moment.

:20:44.:20:44.

A man will appear in court today charged with the murder

:20:45.:20:47.

Thomas Mair, who is 52 and from Birstall, will appear

:20:48.:20:50.

at the Old Bailey this afternoon charged with murder,

:20:51.:20:53.

grievous bodily harm and possession of a firearm with intent.

:20:54.:20:55.

Meanwhile, here in Westminster, floral tributes have continued to be

:20:56.:20:57.

laid at an inpromptu shrine on Parliament Square.

:20:58.:21:02.

MPs and peers will gather this afternoon in Parliament

:21:03.:21:04.

Let's talk to our correspondent Tom Bateman.

:21:05.:21:13.

What is going to happen in the chamber today? Parliamentarians will

:21:14.:21:22.

gather from 2:30pm this afternoon in the House of Commons. We understand

:21:23.:21:28.

that the speaker will be the first, John Bercow, to pay his respects,

:21:29.:21:33.

paid tribute to Jo Cox, followed by the leader of the Labour Party,

:21:34.:21:36.

Jeremy Corbyn and then the Prime Minister, David Cameron. We expect a

:21:37.:21:40.

busy chamber. MPs this morning have been returning to this recall, which

:21:41.:21:46.

obviously Parliament hadn't been sitting because of the referendum

:21:47.:21:50.

campaign, we've had MPs already paying tribute, some tweeting their

:21:51.:21:56.

memories and their words for Jo Cox, even on their journey on the way

:21:57.:22:01.

here. Speaking to one of her colleagues, over the weekend, we

:22:02.:22:04.

expect many people will be wearing a white rose, which will be handed out

:22:05.:22:09.

before the sitting itself, in tribute to their Yorkshire roots.

:22:10.:22:12.

Behind you, even though the weather is pretty bad, we can see a wave of

:22:13.:22:19.

flowers and tributes being laid as a public pass by. Has that been going

:22:20.:22:24.

on all weekend? Absolutely, a number of vigils and memorial services

:22:25.:22:30.

actually over the weekend, to Jo Cox and it's striking, reading some of

:22:31.:22:32.

the messages here, the way in which she was regarded as somebody who

:22:33.:22:37.

worked passionately for her constituents. And I think that is

:22:38.:22:41.

really what we're going to hear a lot more of this afternoon. The way

:22:42.:22:46.

she cared deeply about the seat she was born in, becoming BMP as the new

:22:47.:22:53.

intake only last year. She seemed to work tirelessly for constituents and

:22:54.:22:58.

it's notable that her family are saying that, just in the last few

:22:59.:23:03.

hours, three of her charities, I ask people to donate to, ?800,000, and

:23:04.:23:09.

one of those, charity that works in the constituency, helping people who

:23:10.:23:14.

suffer from loneliness. I think we will hear a lot more about that this

:23:15.:23:20.

afternoon about how she tried to help people in her constituency and

:23:21.:23:22.

indeed for those causes around the world. Tom Bateman, on Parliament

:23:23.:23:25.

Square, thank you very much. And we're joined now by the Labour

:23:26.:23:26.

MP, Alison McGovern, and the Conservative MP and former

:23:27.:23:29.

International Development Welcome to both of you. Alison, your

:23:30.:23:39.

memories first of all Jo Cox? A wonderful smile, beautiful person,

:23:40.:23:44.

deeply committed to her causes. You know, I knew her before she was

:23:45.:23:49.

elected. Working on international development issues. And justice for

:23:50.:23:55.

people in the poorest parts of the world, but when she came to the

:23:56.:23:58.

House of Commons, she took it by storm and probably achieved much

:23:59.:24:03.

more than people who'd served for even longer. She was absolutely

:24:04.:24:09.

adept at holding the government to account. I think George Osborne was

:24:10.:24:11.

right when he said she changed policy and I watched government

:24:12.:24:19.

ministers worry about what Jo with next ask them because half the time

:24:20.:24:24.

she seemed no more than them. Just an absolutely brained person. I'm

:24:25.:24:27.

devastated. I can't believe it's true to be honest. People are taking

:24:28.:24:33.

it in, I think since it happened on Thursday. You are from a different

:24:34.:24:37.

party, Andrew Mitchell, that you wrote an article about Jo Cox

:24:38.:24:41.

describing it as a five foot bundle of Yorkshire grit. How did you get

:24:42.:24:45.

to know her? I first met it ten years ago when we were both marching

:24:46.:24:48.

against the genocide in Darfur for in London. And then in North Darfur,

:24:49.:24:55.

where she was a key operator in Oxfam. And David Cameron and I both

:24:56.:25:00.

went there and she organised the visit. And I have known on and off

:25:01.:25:06.

since then but when she into the House of Commons she came to see me

:25:07.:25:11.

to say could we cooperate and she set up the friends of Syria, the

:25:12.:25:17.

all-party group, and, between us, we co-chaired that group and she made a

:25:18.:25:22.

tremendous impact. A really effective person at making the

:25:23.:25:27.

government see the wider picture on Syria and really effective in the

:25:28.:25:30.

chamber as Alison was saying in getting the message across. In terms

:25:31.:25:35.

of the constituency, as well, because these are the issues that

:25:36.:25:40.

you guys campaign on, to varying degrees, but in her constituency,

:25:41.:25:48.

she also made a major impact. Yes, there's a special thing in politics

:25:49.:25:51.

when you represent your hometown like Jo did. She was one of their

:25:52.:25:57.

own. They sent it to Westminster to represent them but equally,

:25:58.:26:01.

sometimes there are things people don't see, which Jo did, the hard

:26:02.:26:06.

graft of working with charities and organisations to bring the community

:26:07.:26:08.

together. I can remember talking to her just before and after she was

:26:09.:26:14.

elected about the things she was wanting to do in the constituency,

:26:15.:26:18.

change the way politics was done, make it about the real differences

:26:19.:26:24.

we can do when we work together. Jo was an absolutely fine

:26:25.:26:29.

representative, clearly a Yorkshire person through and through, and,

:26:30.:26:35.

looking back at pictures of her, she threw herself into being a

:26:36.:26:38.

constituency member of Parliament with real gusto and minor everybody

:26:39.:26:43.

there is incredibly proud affair, as is everybody in the labour movement.

:26:44.:26:46.

She was chair of the labour women's network, and there are people House

:26:47.:26:51.

of Commons today, who owe their confidence and their political

:26:52.:26:55.

network to Jo and the work she did, not just getting herself elected,

:26:56.:26:59.

but making sure that all of us, as women together, works with each

:27:00.:27:04.

other and helped each other be heard in politics. One of the things I

:27:05.:27:07.

think many people forget is that what MPs do, they are up close and

:27:08.:27:11.

personal with their constituents. She was at a surgery. There's not

:27:12.:27:17.

much protection, there's a weekly grind, if you like, having to deal

:27:18.:27:22.

with real problems, of real people, and that sometimes gets forgotten.

:27:23.:27:26.

This is a terrible tragedy. But I think one of the things Jo would

:27:27.:27:32.

want us to remember is not to damage this very accessible relationship

:27:33.:27:38.

with MPs and their constituents. I think we need to see this as a

:27:39.:27:42.

terrible, terrible event, but not one that should lead to any change

:27:43.:27:46.

in the openness and accessibility which all of us enjoy with our

:27:47.:27:51.

constituents. The police, quite rightly, are very good to us, give

:27:52.:27:56.

us good advice, help us understand the risks and also to make sure our

:27:57.:28:02.

staff are OK because other constituency offices are staffed by

:28:03.:28:07.

Brilliant dedicated people as Jo's staff are, and the police are good.

:28:08.:28:11.

We have to be listened to and we have to take appropriate measures

:28:12.:28:14.

but we don't want to damage what is a really important part of our

:28:15.:28:18.

democracy. To me, what Israeli devastating about this is that I

:28:19.:28:23.

represent my hometown as Jo did and I personally would say there's never

:28:24.:28:26.

any where I feel safer and that's what makes it so devastating. She

:28:27.:28:32.

was also a mother to two young children, too, and obviously very

:28:33.:28:36.

much part of her life, that's all so dreadful for the family, clearly,

:28:37.:28:40.

apart from the politics. Yes, awful, absolutely horrific. It is beyond

:28:41.:28:48.

imagining for most of us and I think what we need to do now is remember

:28:49.:28:52.

what Jo stood for, hold dear to those values that she campaigned for

:28:53.:28:57.

the changes she would've wanted in the world. Will you be speaking

:28:58.:29:02.

afternoon, Andrew? I hope so, yes. She was a friend and colleague. How

:29:03.:29:07.

much worse must be for those who mourn her as a daughter or a sister

:29:08.:29:13.

or a wife, and those two lovely children who used to come and have

:29:14.:29:19.

all capacity with her in the week. What about Labour MPs? You'd be

:29:20.:29:21.

interviewed over the weekend and must've hit very hard, whether you

:29:22.:29:25.

are from the same intake as Jo Cox or the one before. Young MPs, who

:29:26.:29:32.

come into the house, who want to dedicate their lives to public

:29:33.:29:38.

service. Yes, of course, we are all close but actually Jo was somebody

:29:39.:29:41.

who had a network of friends and colleagues around the world and what

:29:42.:29:44.

is truly amazing about her is the outpouring of people who, from

:29:45.:29:51.

Nairobi, Washington, New York, who have all shared their memories of

:29:52.:29:55.

working with her, because she had a view on the whole world and how

:29:56.:30:00.

people could work together across many thousands of miles apart, so of

:30:01.:30:06.

course, it's tough in Westminster today, but Jo was a person who had a

:30:07.:30:09.

significant career beforehand and that was working with people all

:30:10.:30:12.

around the world and I think of all of those people, some are many many

:30:13.:30:15.

miles away from here, are grieving desperately for her. Right, and the

:30:16.:30:20.

causes of the campaign she believed in, you spoke about a little

:30:21.:30:23.

earlier, they will obviously continue and the money is being

:30:24.:30:24.

raised for them at the moment? Yes, and I agree with what Allison

:30:25.:30:33.

said, she had many friends and deep roots across the international

:30:34.:30:37.

humanitarian and development family, really. A very moving response in

:30:38.:30:40.

the Canadian parliament but all around the world and throughout the

:30:41.:30:45.

UN system, she knew so many people. She was much loved and she had very

:30:46.:30:50.

deep roots in that community, part of the reason why she will be so

:30:51.:30:54.

desperately missed. Will you be wanting to speak this afternoon? I

:30:55.:31:00.

will be there but I don't think I will be able to speak but I think

:31:01.:31:03.

many of us will want to be there and at the service afterwards. Kate? I

:31:04.:31:08.

won't be speaking but I will be there. I think the people who knew

:31:09.:31:12.

her really well, and of course, she came in last year and I met her in a

:31:13.:31:16.

number of times but Alison has put it absolutely right about how people

:31:17.:31:21.

will be feeling today. I think it will be a very moving, it is only

:31:22.:31:24.

going to last an hour, so people will be making short contributions,

:31:25.:31:29.

I would imagine and I'm sure the speaker will do it beanie well. And

:31:30.:31:35.

of course, we mention -- extremely well. And of course, we remember the

:31:36.:31:39.

three other members who were murdered, Airey Neave, in the palace

:31:40.:31:43.

itself, Ian Gow, I was in Parliament when he was murdered and Robert

:31:44.:31:47.

Bradfield, another Northern Ireland MP blown up at his surgery. It does

:31:48.:31:53.

not, I mean, fortunately it does not happen very often but something like

:31:54.:31:57.

this, what is so sad is that she had only been an MP for a year and had a

:31:58.:32:02.

huge future ahead of her, even if she didn't want that, she was going

:32:03.:32:06.

to be someone who was going to be in a great position to really change

:32:07.:32:11.

things. Thank you for joining us. It will be very sombre this afternoon,

:32:12.:32:12.

I'm sure. Now, they were giving David Cameron

:32:13.:32:14.

a typically hard time on BBC One last night,

:32:15.:32:17.

as they did Michael Gove last week, so how does the BBC make sure

:32:18.:32:20.

that its audiences on political Adam's been behind the scenes

:32:21.:32:22.

on Question Time to find out. For decades, Question Time has

:32:23.:32:25.

plonked a panel of political types in a different town every

:32:26.:32:28.

Thursday night. In about half an hour's

:32:29.:32:34.

time, the former leader of the Labour Party Ed Miliband

:32:35.:32:40.

is going to be sitting in this seat but, hang on,

:32:41.:32:43.

there's something missing. Hundreds of people apply but only

:32:44.:32:45.

150 are chosen. We have a team doing

:32:46.:32:53.

just audience selection. How did you vote

:32:54.:32:58.

in the last election? And then we put together from that

:32:59.:33:03.

a balance of everything. Political persuasion, age, gender,

:33:04.:33:15.

and where they are on Brexit. And then, at that point,

:33:16.:33:19.

you have an audience of 150 people that you know

:33:20.:33:25.

is fairly well-balanced. What you don't know,

:33:26.:33:30.

if you're in the chair, is when you call on somebody who's

:33:31.:33:32.

got their hand up, which bit they represent because they're

:33:33.:33:37.

not marked Ukip-Brexit, And you can try and guess

:33:38.:33:39.

by people's appearance Before the show, David treats them

:33:40.:33:45.

to a sort of free stand-up routine The case that is for change, which,

:33:46.:33:56.

in this case, is the Brexit, is always more vociferous

:33:57.:34:08.

in an audience like this because there are people who feel

:34:09.:34:12.

passionately about sovereignty, And, on the whole, people who vote

:34:13.:34:16.

Remain are less passionate about why So you have to check very carefully

:34:17.:34:23.

to get both sides of the argument. They are all ready for an hour

:34:24.:34:32.

of arguments, but what about one Yes, the 6,000 people at The Great

:34:33.:34:35.

EU Debate at the SSE Arena in Wembley on 21st June,

:34:36.:34:45.

just two days before A third of the tickets were given

:34:46.:34:47.

to the official Leave Campaign to A third were given to the official

:34:48.:34:51.

Remain Campaign so they could do The rest were made available

:34:52.:34:56.

to the general public, who applied When they went there,

:34:57.:35:01.

they had to say whether they were a Leave supporter

:35:02.:35:05.

or a Remain supporter. Undecideds aren't allowed

:35:06.:35:08.

because someone who's undecided at the start of the campaign may

:35:09.:35:11.

have made their mind up And there are rules

:35:12.:35:14.

for the audience. You're allowed to wear a T-shirt

:35:15.:35:19.

with a slogan on it, but you can't bring a flag

:35:20.:35:21.

or a banner. You're allowed to clap but you're

:35:22.:35:23.

not allowed to heckle. Luckily for you, less so for me,

:35:24.:35:27.

I won't be up here on the night. Saying hello to a very balanced

:35:28.:35:31.

Wembley will be Mishal Husain, Emily Maitlis and,

:35:32.:35:34.

of course, David Dimbleby. It's good for voters and families

:35:35.:35:38.

and young people to see this thing being energised,

:35:39.:35:41.

not just being taken for granted, so I think the idea of Wembley Arena

:35:42.:35:45.

- I shan't be singing, coming on with a guitar -

:35:46.:35:48.

I think it will be great. It looks like he is. It will be very

:35:49.:35:51.

exciting. Now, not much happening this week

:35:52.:36:00.

apart from the biggest political decision the UK's made

:36:01.:36:03.

in a generation. In a moment, I'll be talking to two

:36:04.:36:05.

of Fleet Street's finest to get their take on these

:36:06.:36:08.

momentous few days. First, let's look at how

:36:09.:36:10.

events will unfold. Tonight, Jeremy Corbyn will face

:36:11.:36:12.

an audience of young voters as he puts the case

:36:13.:36:14.

for Remain on Sky News. Tomorrow night at 8pm,

:36:15.:36:17.

David Dimbleby will host The Great Debate on BBC One,

:36:18.:36:18.

with Remain and Leave politicians arguing their case in front

:36:19.:36:22.

of an audience of thousands On Wednesday, Republican

:36:23.:36:25.

presidential candidate Donald Trump is expected to fly

:36:26.:36:32.

into the UK to open a new golf Polls open at 7am on Thursday

:36:33.:36:36.

for the referendum on Britain's By the time they close at 10pm,

:36:37.:36:44.

David Dimbleby will already be on BBC One, as the country waits

:36:45.:36:49.

for the arguably the most important On Friday, the results will start

:36:50.:36:52.

to trickle in after midnight and by 6am, 90% of the results

:36:53.:36:57.

will have been counted. So unless the result is extremely

:36:58.:37:02.

close, the fate of the nation I'll be up all night with many

:37:03.:37:05.

others. We're joined now by James Forsyth

:37:06.:37:13.

of the Spectator and George Eaton No doubt you will be up through the

:37:14.:37:22.

night, too. In his question Time appearance, David Cameron appeared

:37:23.:37:25.

more fired up and passionate than perhaps arguably he had been in

:37:26.:37:28.

previous media performances. Does this reflect the change of mood at

:37:29.:37:33.

number ten? Reds what fired him up was understandably being competitive

:37:34.:37:38.

Chamberlain. The appeasement. Up to that point, he was being forced to

:37:39.:37:42.

be polite, being forced on to the back foot but in that moment and for

:37:43.:37:45.

the last section of the programme, he was much more passionate. One of

:37:46.:37:49.

the things that will this be the Remain campaign on last night is how

:37:50.:37:53.

much the focus was on immigration. If, to be crude, when the subject is

:37:54.:37:58.

the economy, Remain when and when it is immigration, Leave when, last

:37:59.:38:10.

night was not great for Gabi Maine because it was all about

:38:11.:38:11.

immigration, following Jeremy Corbyn saying on Andrew Marr's programme

:38:12.:38:14.

saying there can be no upper limit to migration as long as Britain is

:38:15.:38:17.

within the EU. People saying he was perhaps a mole for the other side by

:38:18.:38:19.

talking about it. Perhaps the most -- help will think he couldn't have

:38:20.:38:22.

said. We number -- we know the number of don't knows is diminishing

:38:23.:38:25.

as we get closer to the referendum that there is no choice for either

:38:26.:38:29.

campaigners, they just need to stick to their strong suit. They have both

:38:30.:38:33.

got their core messages and it is what they call getting out the vote,

:38:34.:38:37.

now, that is what it is about. What gives the Remain campaign worry is

:38:38.:38:43.

the amount of labour campaigners who are voting Out and that is giving

:38:44.:38:48.

Leave the same thing. Remain always thought they needed two thirds of

:38:49.:38:52.

Labour voters to come and vote for in on the day in order to win and

:38:53.:38:55.

they are still nervous about that. In terms of tone and rhetoric, since

:38:56.:38:59.

the brutal murder of Jo Cox, there have been calls for a kinder, less

:39:00.:39:03.

divisive kind of politics and rhetoric in this campaign. Will it

:39:04.:39:08.

be heeded? Has it been? The challenge for both sides is to

:39:09.:39:11.

accept there is goodwill on both sides of the debate and not to

:39:12.:39:14.

question people's voters -- motives in why they are backing what they

:39:15.:39:18.

are backing. One thing is that we have to remember is we can disagree

:39:19.:39:22.

without being disagreeable. Who do using will win? Remain, I have

:39:23.:39:26.

always thought they will win because the undecided, when they have been

:39:27.:39:31.

asked which side they are leaning towards, they tend to say Gabi

:39:32.:39:35.

Maine, and we have seen in the recent referendums on a and the

:39:36.:39:38.

Scottish independence, the status quo tends to prevail but if Leave

:39:39.:39:43.

wins, it will be because of anxiety in immigration -- over immigration

:39:44.:39:46.

and because that campaign will have successfully delivered the message

:39:47.:39:48.

that the risks of staying are greater than the risks of leaving.

:39:49.:39:54.

Do you agree? Remain have to be favourites but one of the beans

:39:55.:39:56.

about this referendum is, whatever the result it will seem entirely

:39:57.:40:01.

obvious. If Remain when comfortable, we will say it is the economy and

:40:02.:40:06.

risk aversion kicking in and if Leave win, we will say in the

:40:07.:40:10.

anti-politics moment, you line up the entire political class and tell

:40:11.:40:12.

them to vote one way, they will obviously vote the other way. We

:40:13.:40:16.

will be wise after the event but you have to say Remain are the

:40:17.:40:20.

favourites. Both your publications, on Thursday? Yes! Rotten timing for

:40:21.:40:28.

you. What is interesting is that in some ways, David Cameron's ambition

:40:29.:40:31.

was to settle the European question with this referendum but whatever

:40:32.:40:36.

the result, it won't do that. If it is a narrow Remain as looks likely,

:40:37.:40:39.

there will be inevitable demands for a second referendum in the future

:40:40.:40:43.

and there's going to have to be further treaty change and

:40:44.:40:47.

integration. If it is a Leave vote, we have left the EU but it does

:40:48.:40:51.

integration. If it is a Leave vote, resolve the issue of the single

:40:52.:40:51.

integration. If it is a Leave vote, market. What does Brexit look like?

:40:52.:40:54.

You throw up a lot of questions whatever the result. One of the

:40:55.:40:57.

things that has happened in the campaign is that leaving the EU used

:40:58.:41:02.

to be a relatively French position and now it is very mainstream and it

:41:03.:41:07.

is highly likely the next Prime Minister will be someone who wanted

:41:08.:41:10.

to leave the EU and I don't think the question will be settled either.

:41:11.:41:14.

It will be much closer than 75, we can say that with confidence. What

:41:15.:41:18.

will happen to be Conservative Party? The next leader is likely to

:41:19.:41:23.

be someone who supported Brexit and they will not miss a referendum

:41:24.:41:28.

immediately but it will go on. If it is Brexit, they will find it easier

:41:29.:41:33.

to unite. But there are lots of Tory MPs on the Leave side who want to

:41:34.:41:36.

stop banging on about Europe and unite around what David Cameron will

:41:37.:41:40.

call his one nation agenda, who want to talk about something else. What

:41:41.:41:44.

is happening at the moment in terms of gathering signatures on the one

:41:45.:41:47.

hand for a vote of no-confidence on the other hand to say that Cameron

:41:48.:41:54.

must stay? As soon as the polls close on Thursday, a letter will be

:41:55.:41:57.

raised side by Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and several of the

:41:58.:41:59.

other cam and it Brexit board is making clear that David Cameron

:42:00.:42:01.

should stay whatever the result which is an attempt to say there is

:42:02.:42:04.

no realistic chance of removing him so don't bother trying to get

:42:05.:42:08.

together 15 aims to cause a vote of no confidence because you won't win.

:42:09.:42:12.

What do you say, Nick Herbert? The vast majority of the Parliamentary

:42:13.:42:16.

party... They should be allowed to write a letter but the feeling among

:42:17.:42:19.

members of Parliament is that we should accept the instruction of the

:42:20.:42:22.

British people and the Prime Minister has made clear that he will

:42:23.:42:26.

go on and implement that instruction and people do, as George says, want

:42:27.:42:30.

to get back down to the core business of delivering a manifesto

:42:31.:42:34.

commitment. We were elected with a majority and we promised a

:42:35.:42:36.

referendum and we have delivered on that and we return to the day-to-day

:42:37.:42:39.

business of restoring the economy and building our public services and

:42:40.:42:43.

extending opportunity to people and there is a real mood amongst my

:42:44.:42:46.

colleagues, the vast majority of them, that is what they want to do.

:42:47.:42:51.

Not the bitterness that has been played out over this campaign? I

:42:52.:42:56.

think it is overstated. The bitterness? The idea that there will

:42:57.:42:59.

be enduring grievances is overstated. Remember that half, over

:43:00.:43:04.

half of the Conservative Parliamentary party were elected

:43:05.:43:06.

either this time all the time before and they don't carry the legacy of

:43:07.:43:11.

battles past. Those were partly caused precisely because it was not

:43:12.:43:14.

a referendum but Parliamentary discussion and was much more heated.

:43:15.:43:17.

But we are all Democrats and we will accept the result of the referendum.

:43:18.:43:21.

I think the vast majority will move on at that point. What about this

:43:22.:43:25.

letter? You say you have not been shown it but you have heard about

:43:26.:43:30.

it? I have heard about it because I read what James is writing avidly. I

:43:31.:43:34.

have not been shown it but I agree with the sentiments, it is right

:43:35.:43:38.

that irrespective of the result, the Prime Minister continues and he

:43:39.:43:40.

himself said he will implement the instruction of the British people

:43:41.:43:43.

but he has a clear view about what is in Britain's national interest.

:43:44.:43:47.

If we vote to leave, and I have to say to my two Macromedia friends,

:43:48.:43:51.

perhaps they don't get out of London enough because quite honestly, I

:43:52.:44:00.

think you will find things are a bit different out there than in here and

:44:01.:44:03.

I'm very confident Leave will win but I would also say that if they

:44:04.:44:06.

do, it is absolutely crucial we get a negotiating team that is led by

:44:07.:44:08.

somebody who cares passionately about getting a good deal for the

:44:09.:44:12.

country. Who should lead it? I genuinely don't think David Cameron

:44:13.:44:16.

will be the right person. We need a cross-party group of people and we

:44:17.:44:19.

need someone like Peter Lilley, for example, who is the only person in

:44:20.:44:23.

the Tory party who's ever actually conducted trade deals. There's a

:44:24.:44:26.

group of people but it needs to be looked at carefully and we need to

:44:27.:44:30.

take time. We don't want any article 50. That is a legal requirement. You

:44:31.:44:35.

don't have to do it right away. Lets not worry about it until we know the

:44:36.:44:37.

result. And macro. Now, how might the UK fare outside

:44:38.:44:42.

the European Union? Well, one country that is in Europe,

:44:43.:44:44.

but outside the European Union, is Norway and some Remain

:44:45.:44:47.

campaigners argue that the country has suffered as a result

:44:48.:44:49.

of its decision to stay out. Norway has had not one

:44:50.:44:52.

but two referendums But it is a member of

:44:53.:44:54.

the European Economic Area and therefore part of

:44:55.:45:03.

the European single market. This means that it accepts free

:45:04.:45:06.

movement of people and many EU For example, Norway

:45:07.:45:10.

is not part of the EU's Common Agricultural Policy

:45:11.:45:16.

or Common Fisheries Policy. Norway pays the EU around

:45:17.:45:20.

?623 million a year - that's ?119 per head -

:45:21.:45:25.

in order to be part of the single market and take part

:45:26.:45:30.

in other EU projects. But just like the UK,

:45:31.:45:33.

it does get some of that money back in the form of EU

:45:34.:45:36.

funding for science, research and other

:45:37.:45:38.

projects in Norway. Let's talk now to a former

:45:39.:45:42.

Norwegian Minister and deputy leader of the Norwegian Centre

:45:43.:45:46.

Party Anne Tinner-Rine. Thank you very much for joining us.

:45:47.:45:57.

You said the Remain Campaign has employed the same scaremongering

:45:58.:45:59.

tactics used by those wishing to join the EU in Norway's 1994

:46:00.:46:03.

referendum. Can you give me some examples? I can give you some

:46:04.:46:11.

examples. Firstly, let me state that I do not wish to have any opinion on

:46:12.:46:17.

the British people, they should vote on Thursday, but it's interesting to

:46:18.:46:20.

see some parallels between the debates we had in 1972 and 1994 and

:46:21.:46:27.

they were especially free, parts of scaremongering, we saw from the yes

:46:28.:46:32.

campaign. First the economic one. Both the Prime Minister and all the

:46:33.:46:37.

economic elite and the media said that we would lose, at least 100,000

:46:38.:46:43.

jobs, they said the biggest businesses would leave Norway, there

:46:44.:46:45.

would be no more investment. They said the interest rates would

:46:46.:46:54.

increase significantly. And in the continuation of that, they said that

:46:55.:46:58.

this economic downturn would be a disaster for the Norwegian welfare

:46:59.:47:02.

state, they said that there would be heavy welfare losses, we would lose

:47:03.:47:11.

several benefits and pensions. The yes campaign even made some

:47:12.:47:15.

calculation that every Norwegian family would lose some ?3000. That

:47:16.:47:26.

sounds familiar. If there was a no. This was in 1994, 22 years ago. Now,

:47:27.:47:32.

the last main argument that the yes campaign did in that campaign, was

:47:33.:47:38.

to say that we would be totally isolated. And that, if we did not

:47:39.:47:44.

join the EU, the EU would no longer want to trade with us, they would

:47:45.:47:49.

not want to have any deals with us, we would have no negotiating power

:47:50.:47:55.

with them. We would become a small isolated little island up in the

:47:56.:47:58.

North that would be of no interest for the EU. Of course, it is all

:47:59.:48:06.

rubbish. You've just heard their somebody in Norway using a

:48:07.:48:12.

remarkable parallel, bearing in mind their campaign was such a long time

:48:13.:48:16.

ago, but actually, if you take what happened to Norway, we would be fine

:48:17.:48:20.

outside the EU, we would make trade deals, we won't have economic doom

:48:21.:48:24.

and gloom. And actually Norway is doing pretty well when I last

:48:25.:48:28.

looked. Firstly, in the interest of balance I hope you interview others

:48:29.:48:31.

in Norway with a different view like the Norwegian prime on a stick, who

:48:32.:48:35.

has said quite recently, Norway has lost influence as a result of being

:48:36.:48:40.

outside the EU, and she said basically we've lost sovereignty.

:48:41.:48:43.

And the question is, whether it would be right for Britain to have a

:48:44.:48:48.

Norway style relationship. By the way, the Leave Campaign are now

:48:49.:48:51.

saying they don't want bad, they want to be right outside the single

:48:52.:48:54.

market but as the price of Norway's partial access to the market, they

:48:55.:49:00.

have to accept free movement, twice as much migration per head of the

:49:01.:49:04.

population as the UK does, they have to pay into the system. Remember how

:49:05.:49:09.

we send money to the EU and we'll get it all back? Norway pays into

:49:10.:49:14.

the system and I have to accept regulations, 75% of EU laws, they

:49:15.:49:18.

have to accept, so the question is, will this be a good relationship for

:49:19.:49:23.

us? What our businesses are saying is for jobs and so on, it will not

:49:24.:49:27.

be as good, we won't have access to the single market and won't be

:49:28.:49:32.

gaining any of these things promised by the Leave Campaign. It is to

:49:33.:49:35.

disable you've interviewed Norwegian politicians who say Norway pays but

:49:36.:49:39.

has no say, and you still have freedom of movement of people which

:49:40.:49:43.

the Leave Campaign here thinks is damaging because they can't control

:49:44.:49:48.

that part of net migration. And that is part of the single market, that

:49:49.:49:54.

is the quid pro quo. In a way, leaving the EU, in that sense, would

:49:55.:49:59.

not solve those issues for Britain. Well, firstly, let me say, yes, Don

:50:00.:50:06.

the region Prime Minister and other ministers have said the agreement is

:50:07.:50:12.

terrible for Norway -- Norwegian Prime Minister. That caused quite an

:50:13.:50:20.

outrage in Norway because this... You must be aware this goes straight

:50:21.:50:23.

into the national political debate in Norway as well and the Norwegian

:50:24.:50:28.

Prime Minister has still not really for given the Norwegian public for

:50:29.:50:34.

voting no in 1994. Let me say that the agreement is not an optimal

:50:35.:50:41.

agreement. There are strong forces in Norwegian politics that would

:50:42.:50:44.

like to renegotiate the agreement. Right now, the majority in the

:50:45.:50:51.

Norwegian Parliament is for the agreement but that's a political

:50:52.:50:58.

solution, compromise. Of course, if we had enough politicians willing to

:50:59.:51:04.

go in and negotiate the agreement, free movement of people for

:51:05.:51:07.

instance, it would be one of those things which would be debated. All

:51:08.:51:15.

right, very quickly, isn't that the scenario that could face your

:51:16.:51:19.

campaign if Britain does about to leave the EU, that over the next few

:51:20.:51:23.

years, there is a trade deal negotiation, Britain stays part of

:51:24.:51:26.

the single market and with that comes freedom of movement because

:51:27.:51:29.

that's exactly what happened to Norway? I don't agree with you to be

:51:30.:51:33.

in the single market to trade and do very well. I also think, what

:51:34.:51:36.

happened in Norway shows very clearly what is happening here, it

:51:37.:51:40.

is, whether you like it or not, the establishment at the top, the

:51:41.:51:43.

leadership, ganging together against the people and it's very clear in

:51:44.:51:49.

Norway, despite what their Prime Minister has said, the vast vast

:51:50.:51:52.

majority of the public in Norway do not want to join the EU. We've never

:51:53.:51:57.

had that chance. This is our first chance but also we are going to see

:51:58.:52:01.

if we vote to leave, change throughout the rest of the EU

:52:02.:52:04.

including Norway probably, getting a chance to have that discussion. We

:52:05.:52:09.

will find out. Anne Tinner-Rine, thank you very much for joining us.

:52:10.:52:12.

Now, we were out, blocked from joining,

:52:13.:52:13.

This week, the British people will be given another opportunity

:52:14.:52:17.

to decide whether we stay in and start another

:52:18.:52:19.

chapter in the UK's relationship with the EU.

:52:20.:52:30.

If we are to form the United States of Europe, we must begin now.

:52:31.:52:34.

Despite Mr Macmillan's friendship with De Gaulle,

:52:35.:52:36.

Britain has much to contribute to this process and as members

:52:37.:52:45.

of the Community, we shall be better able to do so.

:52:46.:52:54.

You see, Yes is now showing at 67% and the No vote at 33%.

:52:55.:53:01.

The President of the Commission, Mr Delors, said at a press

:53:02.:53:04.

conference the other day that he wanted the European Parliament to be

:53:05.:53:07.

the democratic body of the Community, he wanted

:53:08.:53:11.

the Commission to be the executive and he wanted the

:53:12.:53:14.

Council of Ministers to be the Senate.

:53:15.:53:15.

I have to say, Mr Speaker, that I find Winston Churchill's

:53:16.:53:21.

perception a good deal more convincing and more encouraging

:53:22.:53:25.

for the interests of our nation than the nightmare image sometimes

:53:26.:53:28.

conjured up by my right honourable friend.

:53:29.:53:33.

Britain's best interests are served by suspending our membership

:53:34.:53:37.

Like me or loathe me, don't bind my hands when I am

:53:38.:53:42.

negotiating on behalf of the British nation.

:53:43.:54:01.

Three years ago, I committed to the British people that

:54:02.:54:03.

I would renegotiate our position in the European Union and hold

:54:04.:54:06.

And we're joined now by the political historian,

:54:07.:54:20.

It's been a rocky relationship, hasn't it, Britain and the EU?

:54:21.:54:27.

Europe has been a poisoned chalice for so many British prime ministers

:54:28.:54:31.

from Harold Macmillan onwards. It destroyed his government, Ted Heath,

:54:32.:54:36.

Margaret Thatcher's government, John Major's government, broke up the

:54:37.:54:40.

Labour Party in the 1980s, and the reason it's been so difficult and it

:54:41.:54:44.

has divided parties is because it raises fundamental questions about

:54:45.:54:49.

widget identity, what sort of people are we? Are we really European or

:54:50.:54:56.

not? Does that extend from the post where period, an island mentality,

:54:57.:54:59.

not invaded in the same sense as those other countries who then drew

:55:00.:55:03.

together at the beginning? Was it a stumbling block from the start?

:55:04.:55:07.

Absolutely, our history is different to the continent for the continental

:55:08.:55:11.

countries, Germany, France, Italy, they have to begin again after the

:55:12.:55:15.

war, but our institutions remain undecided, going back to medieval

:55:16.:55:18.

times, the monarchy even further. Our history is quite different and

:55:19.:55:22.

that is summed up in the idea of the which of course Europe attacks

:55:23.:55:27.

because Europe is superior to the sovereignty of Parliament. What

:55:28.:55:30.

about, though, the economic criteria versus the political issues? I think

:55:31.:55:37.

that has always been the core of our relationship with the EU, it was

:55:38.:55:42.

seen at one point by both Labour and Tories as a good thing to be part of

:55:43.:55:48.

but the political union was more difficult to swallow? Absolutely,

:55:49.:55:51.

every British bonus from Harold Macmillan has wanted us to be in

:55:52.:55:53.

Europe because they economic advantages there, they haven't on

:55:54.:55:58.

the whole accepted what you might call the ideology of Europeanism,

:55:59.:56:04.

but they want to be part of political unity, monetary financial

:56:05.:56:07.

unity, but they thought there was definite pragmatic advantages in

:56:08.:56:10.

being in Europe and they've had to balance that against the ideology of

:56:11.:56:17.

Europe on the other side. In terms of Labour Party and Conservative

:56:18.:56:21.

Party politics, we saw Margaret Thatcher, was she becoming

:56:22.:56:25.

suspicious of a Europe that she thought was being run by social

:56:26.:56:28.

Democrats, that somehow it wasn't the sort of Europe that she wanted

:56:29.:56:35.

controlling Britain? As your film showed, she was a great euro

:56:36.:56:39.

enthusiast in 1975, but became suspicious much later in the late

:56:40.:56:45.

1980s when Jack the law took the TUC and telling them they could get

:56:46.:56:48.

lists of social benefits from Europe they can get from her, and she said,

:56:49.:56:52.

we haven't defeated socialism by the front door in Britain, to have it

:56:53.:56:56.

brought in by the back door from Brussels. And that, I think, but are

:56:57.:57:00.

strongly against the European Union. What do you say to that because the

:57:01.:57:04.

other. It's true but then, of course, what's happened since then,

:57:05.:57:10.

the EU now has gone back to being a supporter of the global

:57:11.:57:13.

corporations, it is neoliberal, you saw what did terms of stopping

:57:14.:57:19.

bargaining, the idea it a great institution there to protect

:57:20.:57:23.

workers' rights, that's nonsense. The trade union say that. Yes, they

:57:24.:57:29.

are trying to scare people that everywhere to leave, the rights

:57:30.:57:31.

would disappear but all of those things are enshrined in law. The

:57:32.:57:35.

trade union movement won these things, not the European Union. It's

:57:36.:57:38.

been a real saw the link to the Conservative Party even today. I

:57:39.:57:44.

think we have to accept it has to be settled by the British people

:57:45.:57:47.

because normal party politics can't. It's right to put it to the people.

:57:48.:57:53.

I wasn't able to vote in 1975, I was too young. Don't boast. I watched

:57:54.:57:59.

the wonderful BBC documentary about it and there was Tony Benn saying if

:58:00.:58:03.

we voted to stay in, it would be the end of democracy, and of these

:58:04.:58:06.

claims about the attack on sovereignty have been overblown.

:58:07.:58:09.

Actually, now, Britain has this data is where we are not in the Eurozone,

:58:10.:58:13.

we keep our own currency, not committed to further political

:58:14.:58:18.

integration. OK, we have to leave it there. Thank you for coming in on

:58:19.:58:19.

the history there. There's just time before we go

:58:20.:58:22.

to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was former

:58:23.:58:25.

Conservative Party Chairman, Baroness Warsi announced her

:58:26.:58:27.

defection this morning, but what has she apparently defected

:58:28.:58:29.

from and to? A) From the Conservative Party

:58:30.:58:31.

to the Labour Party? B) From supporting Bradford Bulls

:58:32.:58:34.

rugby league team to Leeds Rhinos? I hope you know more

:58:35.:58:40.

about that than me. C) From Vote Leave to the Remain

:58:41.:58:44.

Campaign? Or D) From the Old Republic

:58:45.:58:46.

to the Dark Side in Star Wars? Well, she was never part of it. The

:58:47.:58:56.

answer, which is wrong, it is saying that she left the Vote Leave to join

:58:57.:59:01.

Remain. I checked it this morning, she's never appeared on our

:59:02.:59:05.

platforms, than anything. We have to leave it there. I think she's had a

:59:06.:59:08.

telephone call from David Cameron. Particular do you two in these

:59:09.:59:09.

closing days. Just three or four more sleeps

:59:10.:59:17.

until we find out whether we're in or out of the EU,

:59:18.:59:20.

depending on whether you plan to stay up all night

:59:21.:59:23.

on Thursday for the results. The One O'Clock News is starting

:59:24.:59:25.

over on BBC One now. I'll be here at noon

:59:26.:59:28.

tomorrow with all the big

:59:29.:59:31.

Jo Coburn is joined by Conservative MP and Remain campaigner Nick Herbert and Labour Leave campaigner Kate Hoey MP to discuss the EU referendum. Including the latest on the death of Labour MP Jo Cox as MPs return to Parliament to pay tribute this afternoon.


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