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There's a sombre mood here at Westminster, | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
as politicians try to come to terms with the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox. | :00:41. | :00:47. | |
Tributes have been paid by politicians from all sides | :00:48. | :00:49. | |
and from around the world to the campaigning MP, | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
who was just at the start of her promising political career. | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
We'll be speaking to a former friend and colleague. | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
Her murder has underlined the risks faced by our elected representatives | :01:02. | :01:10. | |
as they try to remain accessible and meet with their constituents. | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
Her death overshadowed last night's by-election in Tooting, | :01:14. | :01:15. | |
which saw Labour hold the seat and double its majority. | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
We'll be talking about the sometimes uneasy relationship | :01:20. | :01:22. | |
between ministers and civil servants. | :01:23. | :01:33. | |
And with us for the whole of the programme today | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
are the journalists Steve Richards and Toby Young. | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
Westminster and the country are in a state of shock this morning | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
following the murder of the Labour MP Jo Cox in her West Yorkshire | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
The 41-year-old, who was only elected to the Commons at last | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
year's general election, was attacked as she left her | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
constituency surgery in the village of Birstall | :01:57. | :01:57. | |
The mother-of-two came to politics following a career at Oxfam, | :01:58. | :02:06. | |
and had made a name for herself campaigning for the government | :02:07. | :02:08. | |
to accept more child refugees from Syria. | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
The day before the murder, she had been campaigning | :02:13. | :02:14. | |
for the Remain campaign on a flotilla on the Thames. | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
-- watching her husband and children join a flotilla on the Thames. | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
She is the only woman to have been murdered while serving as an MP, | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
and the first MP since Ian Gow was killed by the IRA in 1990. | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
Campaigning ahead of next week's EU referendum has been suspended | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
and politicians from all sides have paid tribute. | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn praised her as a much-loved collague, | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
whle the Prime Minister described her as a committed and caring MP. | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
Yesterday a vigil was held outside Parliament, while hundreds of people | :02:48. | :02:49. | |
filled a church in Birstall for a service of remembrance. | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
A 52-year-old man, named locally as Tommy Mair, has been arrested. | :02:55. | :03:02. | |
He was reported by some to have shouted "put Britain first", | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
though other witnesses have challenged that. | :03:08. | :03:09. | |
Details are emerging indicating past links | :03:10. | :03:10. | |
to far-right groups, though these have still | :03:11. | :03:12. | |
His family say he never talked politics with them. | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
Well, a short while ago, I spoke to our correspondent | :03:19. | :03:20. | |
I asked her about the response today of the local people. Floral tributes | :03:21. | :03:33. | |
have been made here all morning, look at them, and they will be | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
continued to be made here throughout the dated rock people coming here | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
from all backgrounds, all faiths. One card here, Andrew, simply says, | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
"To a Yorkshire Rose". Jo Cox was born and bred here in West Yorkshire | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
and in this part of the world, that means a lot. Yes, she did campaign | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
on the major international issues but people here will tell you that | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
no issue was too small. They'll tell you that she was involved with a | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
campaign for a pedestrian crossing, she was supporting a family who had | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
an autistic child, and they'll tell you that they would stop and talk to | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
her in the street and talk about her personal or private problems. One | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
woman said, "We voted for her, we gave her voice, and now it has been | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
silenced". And a local man has been arrested and is in custody. What do | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
we know about him? He's a 52-year-old man. He has been named | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
locally as Tommy Mair but that hasn't been confirmed by West | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
Yorkshire Police. We're learning a bit more about him. Humidity in the | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
village of Birstall for about 30 years. He lived alone. He did local | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
jobs for the local people. There are ports of family members saying that | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
he had mental health issues, that they were dealt with, again | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
something that has not been confirmed by West Yorkshire Police. | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
But here on the ground, the investigation is still very much | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
continuing this morning. Officers have been carrying out a fingertip | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
search outside the library where Joe Cox was stamped and shot yesterday. | :05:08. | :05:14. | |
This huge police cordoned around the heart of Birstall, the Market | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
Square, hasn't moved overnight, and that's something that is very | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
difficult for people... It is a reminder of what happened here | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
yesterday, it's something they are having to expend their children as | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
they were taking them to school this morning, the very school that was on | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
lockdown yesterday because the police weren't entirely sure what | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
was going on at that stage. So difficult to come to terms with this | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
in their daily lives and, of course, the loss of their local MP, who was | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
much loved it. That is the latest from Birstall, the scene of the | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
crime. We had no indication yet from the police as to when they will make | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
another formal statement. So far, they only made a brief one last | :05:55. | :05:57. | |
night which announced the sad death of the MP from the wounds in the | :05:58. | :06:04. | |
attack. The gave no indication as to when the police are going to say any | :06:05. | :06:06. | |
more. Well, as we said, tributes to Jo Cox | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
have been made by politicians of all parties here and her death has also | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
made a big impact around the world. We're expecting to hear from the | :06:15. | :06:21. | |
Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn in the next hour. This has been a major | :06:22. | :06:23. | |
international story. Firstly, a statement | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
from Hillary Clinton: Australian Prime Minister Malcolm | :06:27. | :06:39. | |
Turnbull, posted a tweet saying... Canadian Prime Minister | :06:40. | :06:52. | |
Justin Trudeau tweeted... Well, that maiden speech you heard | :06:53. | :07:02. | |
referred to there was widely Many honourable and right honourable | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
members will lay claim, I'm sure, to their constituencies | :07:06. | :07:13. | |
being constituencies of two halves Batley and Spen is very much that | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
kind of constituency. And it's a joy to represent such | :07:17. | :07:23. | |
a diverse community. Batley and Spen is a gathering | :07:24. | :07:26. | |
of typically independent, no-nonsense proud Yorkshire | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
towns and villages. Our communities have been deeply | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
enhanced by immigration, be it Irish Catholics | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
across the constituency or Muslims from Indian Gujarat or from | :07:38. | :07:39. | |
Pakistan, principally from Kashmir. And whilst we celebrate our | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
diversity, the thing that surprises me time and time again | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
as I travel around the constituency is that we are far more united | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
and have far more in common My constituency is also | :07:51. | :07:53. | |
home to Fox's Biscuits and Lion Confectionery, | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
so I'm sure you will not think it an indulgence, Mr Speaker, | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
if I describe Batley and Spen as a constituency with an industrial | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
heart wrapped in a very rich and pleasant Yorkshire landscape, | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
geographical, The spirit of nonconformity | :08:14. | :08:16. | |
is as prevalent now in my part of West Yorkshire | :08:17. | :08:25. | |
as it was in the time of my two immediate predecessors, | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
Mike Wood and Elizabeth Peacock. They were both known | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
for their own brand of independent, nonconformist service, | :08:33. | :08:34. | |
albeit in very different ways. And I intend to maintain that | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
established tradition Jo Cox making her maiden speech | :08:41. | :08:42. | |
in the Commons last year. She was speaking about the | :08:43. | :08:57. | |
constituency of which she was so proud and where she had been brought | :08:58. | :08:59. | |
up. Well, to talk about Jo Cox's life | :09:00. | :09:01. | |
and her contribution to public life, we're joined by her friend and | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
colleague the Labour MP Mary Creagh. Mary Creagh, Joe Cox was a | :09:06. | :09:12. | |
politician strong principles, strong views on a number of matters, but I | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
always got the impression she was one of the least triable politicians | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
in the House of commons. Is that right? That certainly is. Jo had | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
only been in Parliament for 18 short months but in that time, she was | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
keen to learn, she sought advice, she took a device, and she was | :09:33. | :09:35. | |
absolutely determined to work across parties for the causes that she | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
passionately believed in. And she worked with Andrew Mitchell and | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
other Conservative colleagues to set up the cross-party group on Syria. | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
She was instrumental in forcing the government to change its policy and | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
getting them to accent the 3000 unaccompanied Syrian asylum seeking | :09:55. | :10:01. | |
children. -- to accept. And she was a force of nature and if there were | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
any obstacles in her path, she would not go around them, she would go | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
straight through them. And at a time when it is a common criticism that | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
so many of our politicians are career politicians, that they've | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
never done anything else but come out of university and go straight | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
into politics, she had a hinterland, didn't she? She had done other | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
things, particularly in the field of development aid, with NGOs, and what | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
she had done in formed her when she became a politician. That's right. | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
Jo had a long and distinguished career in the humanitarian field and | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
she'd worked for Oxfam and Save the Children, NSPCC, so she had a huge | :10:39. | :10:45. | |
amount of experience to call an and she had campaigned globally and she | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
brought all of that wisdom, that insight back-to-back league, back to | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
the area where she was born and brought up. -- back to Batley. To | :10:56. | :11:03. | |
fight on behalf of the people she had grown up with and who loved so | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
dearly. She was noted for her compassion, particularly on these | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
issues, and her decency, but you was also - and this isn't always used of | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
politicians, I would suggest that Mark seen as just normal. She | :11:17. | :11:23. | |
certainly was. She was a mother and we would sometimes chat about our | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
various childcare issues. She would bring her two children into | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
Parliament sometimes to have tea. She lived on a houseboat, she cycled | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
in and out of Parliament and I remember one night trying to catch | :11:36. | :11:37. | |
up with this woman who was going quite a lot faster with me and I | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
drew level with her at the traffic lights and looked across and we both | :11:42. | :11:44. | |
just burst out laughing and I said, "I'm afraid you're going a bit too | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
fast for me, Jo, you'd better crack on without me". So she lived every | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
day to the full. She had an energy, and exuberance and the weight that | :11:55. | :11:57. | |
made every room she walked into light up and it is beyond words that | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
that surely and that life and that brilliance has been snuffed out and | :12:04. | :12:13. | |
taken so cruelly. Mary Creagh, thank you for joining us and sharing those | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
thoughts on Jo Cox to what are your thoughts? There are many. There is | :12:20. | :12:28. | |
sadness about what has happened. What is interesting about the | :12:29. | :12:30. | |
coverage since is that there has been the focus on this dedicated MP | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
the consideration seek -- in the constituency, running a surgery for | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
local constituents, and normally it is that bit of the MP's world which | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
gets very little coverage at all. There is this assumption that they | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
are in the so-called Westminster bubble all the time. Actually, we | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
journalists are in it all the time. I've always thought that we are more | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
of a bubble than MPs because they have to go back to people in places | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
like Birstall. The idea that they are out of touch is one of the great | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
dangerous myths of British politics and there is a tendency and the | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
default position of whatever story comes up to blame politicians, and | :13:08. | :13:14. | |
to give a ten second example, when that Panama scandal about tax came | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
up, I was asked by somebody on a comment desk, "Will you do a piece | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
saying MPs should immediately make all their tax returns transparent | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
and publicly available er" as if they were somehow culpable. It is a | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
default position that they are bunch of crooks and I don't know how we've | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
got to that position. It is a genuine mystery to me to talk we let | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
them so it must be a kind of self-loathing that we let them and | :13:40. | :13:42. | |
then get into this default position that they are all a bunch of crooks | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
and the focus today is entirely different and freakishly unusual. | :13:47. | :13:53. | |
Will this lead to us revaluing, maybe even valuing more, the work of | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
politicians, or is it just an aberration in the sadness of Jo | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
Cox's murder, and it will default back to the previous position? You | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
always hope when something tragic like this happens that something of | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
value will come out of it and one hope is that people will remember | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
just what a good-hearted and hard-working constituency MP Jo Cox | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
was the next time they feel inclined to respond in this knee jerk, | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
hostile way to some sin of the political class. But will things | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
change? One thing I hope doesn't change is that MPs become much more | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
nervous about their security and there is less contact between the | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
MPs and their constituents. We'll talk about that in a minute. Jo Cox | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
was an interesting example of the changing nature of MPs on both sides | :14:46. | :14:52. | |
of the Commons. If you look first at the 2010 but then the 2015 intake, | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
there were different voices on both sides of the House, not | :14:58. | :14:59. | |
traditionally what you would normally expect. We had been talking | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
all along about politics being nothing but a career, you go to | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
university, usually Oxbridge, then you are straight into the House, but | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
she is an example of a number of a new generation of MPs that don't fit | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
that stereotype, was in cheek was Bob -- wasn't she? | :15:21. | :15:29. | |
There's another thing unreported. There are others on both sides, a | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
big cultural shift and they feel in a way more accountable to their | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
constituents, I think, to say the leaders of the their parties. That's | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
been on both sides absolutely. And that's another important shift. I | :15:47. | :15:49. | |
think probably we political journalists need to get out more and | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
see what their other lives are like. What I'm not saying, is this | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
collective outpouring of genuine grief and sadness across the | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
political spectrum means somehow politics can be without conflict and | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
battles. The whole essence of politics, it's a noble vocation. You | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
decide disputes through word and debate and not force. People who say | :16:18. | :16:24. | |
it should be bland now and everyone should be in agreement... It's not | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
our style. Not what politics is about. But, if we can he is swap | :16:29. | :16:36. | |
this anti-politics asimplings that when anything happens it is the | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
fault of those we elect, that will be healthy. She was an independent | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
Labour MP. Her own woman. There are a number of people on both sides of | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
the House. A number of people who have only recently got into the | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
House, despite you thinking they're on the greasy pole on their way up, | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
you do that by being loyal and don't rock the boat. I can think of a | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
number of MPs on both sides that don't do that. They say what they | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
think and they vote the way they want. That was true of the 2010 | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
intake and also true of the 2015 intake. They are much more | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
rebellious, much less likely to tow the party line. More | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
independent-minded. You can see the authority of party leaders and whips | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
declining and the authority the Speaker increasing in the last | :17:29. | :17:30. | |
Parliament and this Parliament. If you believe in politics and MPs are | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
there to represent the views of their constituents and not just tow | :17:35. | :17:41. | |
the party line, that's a good thing. It's remarkable how these things | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
come and hit us. You don't see any of this going and suddenly, we look | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
at trends, look at news events coming up, who's up, who's down and | :17:51. | :17:57. | |
something happens and it changes everything. Exactly. We often on | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
this programme and others follow patterns. Work out what happens | :18:04. | :18:10. | |
next. Something tragically happening like this, the mood has completely | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
changed. There's no campaigning tomorrow, I was supposed to a | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
one-on-one interview with Iain Duncan Smith. My fourth, but that's | :18:22. | :18:28. | |
been changed. Something simple mattic of things which have changed, | :18:29. | :18:36. | |
the by-election when it takes place in Jo Cox's constituency shouldn't | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
be contested by another party. It should be a Labour seat. I've seen | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
suggestions of that. You can't stop people standing in a by-election, | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
independent candidates. Perhaps the main parties will decide not to | :18:50. | :18:51. | |
contest it. Now, this attack on an MP as she | :18:52. | :18:52. | |
held a constituency surgery has raised questions over the safety | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
of our elected representatives Like most MPs, Jo Cox held | :18:57. | :18:58. | |
a well-publicised, regular surgery for her constituents to come | :18:59. | :19:05. | |
to to talk about their problems. The House of Commons yesterday | :19:06. | :19:12. | |
said it has re-issued security advice to MPs, | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
and details of the kind of threats made to them on a regular | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
basis have been emerging. So, just what is the | :19:20. | :19:22. | |
extent of the problem? Well, psychiatrists conducted | :19:23. | :19:29. | |
a sobering study The Home Office report | :19:30. | :19:31. | |
found that 80% of MPs had been victims of intrusive | :19:32. | :19:40. | |
or aggressive behaviour. One in five said they had been | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
subject to attack including one who reported being | :19:47. | :19:49. | |
repeatedly punched in the face and A further 41% said they had received | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
threats of harm against them. One told the researchers "There were | :19:56. | :20:02. | |
numerous reports of death threats, both in person and by mail, and bomb | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
threats." A fifth of MPs reported threats of | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
property damage, including petrol poured through the | :20:12. | :20:14. | |
letterbox, tyres slashed and paint stripper | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
poured over their vehicles. And, worryingly, almost two in five | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
MPs report being stalked, with half of those saying it had | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
gone on for more than a year. The psychiatrists found that younger | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
women were particularly targeted. Earlier today, the Labour MP | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
Stephen Timms, who was previously attacked at his surgery, | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
spoke about how security Well, after I was attacked, | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
six years ago now, the police spoke to, | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
I think, every MP about the arrangements | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
in their constituency surgeries, That perhaps should happen | :20:56. | :20:57. | |
again and there may be But what none of us would want | :20:58. | :21:03. | |
is a big change in the culture of our country, which would make it | :21:04. | :21:12. | |
much harder for people to get We're joined now from Croydon by | :21:13. | :21:18. | |
the Conservative MP Gavin Barwell. Parliament is a fortress surrounded | :21:19. | :21:36. | |
by armed police. It has concrete bunkers and all the rest of it. But | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
the constituencies is where they could be much more vulnerable. We're | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
joined from Croydon by the Conservative MP Gavin Barwell. He | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
was threatened in his constituency surgery in the last month. You were | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
met with an aggressive constituent earlier this month. Talk us through | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
what happened to you? Yes, Andrew, someone had booked to come and see | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
me at my surgery. It very rapidly became apparent the individual was | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
very disturbed. We asked him to leave. He refused to do so. The | :22:11. | :22:17. | |
police were called. He then became very agitated, started kicking the | :22:18. | :22:20. | |
furniture around. Threatened to attack me and kill me. At that | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
point, the police arrived and he was arrested and subsequently discovered | :22:26. | :22:31. | |
to have a knife on him. What's your reaction to this Home Office report, | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
this survey? I may be wrong but I don't remember it getting much | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
publicity at the time. It seems now very pertinent and important. It | :22:43. | :22:48. | |
seems we have a serious problem here which, by and large, has been | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
ignored. Is that fair? It is difficult to strike the right | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
proportion. I wasn't aware of that report. A month ago, eyed aide have | :22:57. | :23:05. | |
said in six years of being an MP I wouldn't feel threatened. The | :23:06. | :23:08. | |
majority of people I deal with are kind and generous. There are often | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
people who have particular health problems that can pose a threat. We | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
have to find a way of making sure MPs think about their security and | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
the security of their staff and families but don't stop doing our | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
job to go out, meet people, go to community events. The job can never | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
be made 100% safe. This is a balance here. It is difficult. I remember as | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
a kid my parents taking me to Downing Street. You could just walk | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
in. You could walk up the street and stand outside the door. There was a | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
policeman there. That was it. Today, there are armed guards, all swords | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
of -- sorts of security measures. You can't just walk in. I could | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
remember party conferences where you could walk in and out. No grate | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
security. Today, there's a ring of steel around the conference of which | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
ever party's in Government. We still have this ability to approach our | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
MPs in constituencies. We can walk in off the street in many areas and | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
speak to them. That would now seem potentially to be dangerous. That | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
could now go, couldn't it? I hope it won't. I think, obviously you were | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
right to say party of the week we work in one of the most secure | :24:24. | :24:26. | |
locations in the country. There are things you can do at your | :24:27. | :24:29. | |
constituency office to increase security. But, even if you do that, | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
I spend a huge amount of my time knocking on people's doors or | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
attending community events. You can't make those locations | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
completely secure. I represent one of the most diverse parts of the | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
country. I regularly meet people from other parts of the world. They | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
are amazed when I knock on their door, bump into them on the street. | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
They come from places where politicians are surrounded by | :24:57. | :24:59. | |
security. You can't go up and shake their hand. Talk to them. That's | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
pricks. It is one of the reasons why when you ask people what they think | :25:05. | :25:12. | |
of lair local MP they have a much higher regard than politicians. | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
Parliament used to be a male monopoly. It's not now. There are a | :25:17. | :25:25. | |
growing number of female MPs. A lot, like Jo Cox, pretty young women | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
beginning their political careers. They seem to be a particularly | :25:31. | :25:36. | |
target in terms of being physically stalked. They seem, most | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
disgustingly of all, in a way, targets on social media? Yes. I | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
think there is a lot of evidence of that. We certainly need to look at | :25:46. | :25:51. | |
what more we can do to address those kinds of issues. Any MP will tell | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
you there is a massive contrast how you get treated when you meet people | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
face-to-face and what you get anonymously on social media. It is | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
really striking. Any MP will say that. You are right to say some | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
female colleagues get particularly bad treatment in that regard. Thank | :26:11. | :26:16. | |
you for joining us. Safety in your constituency and surgeries. Steve, I | :26:17. | :26:23. | |
saw you nodding there when I went through the Downing Street days and | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
party conferences. Clearly MPs are aware of this, striking the balance, | :26:28. | :26:34. | |
there must be a danger even our MPs, when they're in their | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
constituencies, are going to be more can cocooned than they have been? I | :26:39. | :26:44. | |
hope not. I nodded because I had the same experience. You could walk into | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
Downing Street and stand outside Number Ten. Policeman would move a | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
bit. Prime Minister's in there. It felt exciting and accessible. This | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
is one of the problems. The myth they're Alcock cooned. One of the | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
reasons they are seen as that is because of security at key political | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
moments, they are. You can't walk into Downing Street now. The House | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
of Commons is a fortress. Party conferences, it is like trying to | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
get in to, well, it is a security fortress. I think, actually, if | :27:18. | :27:24. | |
won't happen because it will be frankly impossible to police on the | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
scale required. When MPs are wandering around their local | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
constituencies. It can't happen. That level of connect is so | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
fundamental, I don't think it can. But obviously people will be | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
exploring this. My assumption is it would be healthy if that were not to | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
happen. Yet we've seen it in the United States. They don't have quite | :27:48. | :27:54. | |
the same constituency relationship. Centres have security -- senators | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
have security. The chairman of the Federal Reserve has and so on. It's | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
become a feature of the modern world? Yes, bus I think that | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
politicians are at greater risk in the United States than they are | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
here. One of the reasons, what happened to Jo Cox yesterday was so | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
deeply shocking because that kind of thing happens to rarely in Britain. | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
And like Steve, I really hope that this doesn't mean that we move to a | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
much more cocooned system in which politicians don't have that direct | :28:28. | :28:30. | |
contact with ordinary people. We shall see. Bernard Jenkins is | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
telling us because of threats to him, he has to hold his | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
constituency, he has somebody in the room. It is clear he has somebody in | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
the room that can help to look after him should it go wrong. One of the | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
ironies, a lot of these backbenchers are hard working but not hugely | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
powerful figures actually are. There is an awerings they could change the | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
world with a flick of their wrists that's not the case. We've just | :28:58. | :29:03. | |
heard that the Prime Minister is on his way to Jo Cox's constituency in | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
West Yorkshire and will be arriving shortly. | :29:09. | :29:11. | |
Now, yesterday saw Labour hold the seat of Tooting in South London. | :29:12. | :29:14. | |
The vote was triggered by Sadiq Khan's election as London Mayor | :29:15. | :29:20. | |
and, despite being a Conservative target seat, junior doctor | :29:21. | :29:26. | |
Rosena Allin-Khan more than doubled Labour's majority, | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
But there was little applause at the count, | :29:33. | :29:39. | |
and she devoted her speech to Jo Cox. | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
And I do hereby declare that Allin-Khan, Rosena | :29:44. | :29:46. | |
is duly elected for the Tooting constituency. | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
First of all, I would like to give my profound | :29:51. | :29:58. | |
thanks to the people of Tooting for electing me as their MP. | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
But my thoughts and prayers are with Jo's husband | :30:03. | :30:05. | |
She was a proud and passionate campaigner, who will be | :30:06. | :30:11. | |
Jo's death reminds us that our democracy is precious but fragile. | :30:12. | :30:19. | |
Thousands of people voted today and we are all here in recognition | :30:20. | :30:26. | |
And if the terrible events in West Yorkshire hadn't happened yesterday, | :30:27. | :30:41. | |
the winner of the Tooting by-election would have become the | :30:42. | :30:48. | |
100th female Labour MP. Tooting... We were told that the demographics | :30:49. | :30:56. | |
were changing, to sympathise, it was becoming posher and therefore | :30:57. | :30:58. | |
perhaps more Tory. No sign of that in this by-election. It is | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
interesting and it is the second one. When Sadiq Khan first won the | :31:03. | :31:09. | |
moel thing, there was a lot of talk amongst those hoping that Jeremy | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
Corbyn would fall quickly. -- the mayoral thing. It happened just | :31:14. | :31:21. | |
before Christmas... Was at an old, the by-election? Labour won that | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
comfortably. So as far as you can extrapolate much from by-elections, | :31:27. | :31:34. | |
the again cocooned media consumption that Jeremy Corbyn, everything he | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
touches will turn to disaster, is simply not the case. However, of | :31:38. | :31:45. | |
course, at this point in the electoral cycle, you would assume | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
that the party would hold it so that is a qualification. But for those | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
who say that the party is imploding under Corbyn, here is more proof | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
that this is not the case. It confirms a more nuanced picture of | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
the impact of Jeremy Corbyn on Labour's vote, which is that it is | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
not going to have a negative impact in London, particularly in central | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
London. Where Labour didn't fare particularly well in the local | :32:12. | :32:14. | |
elections were areas where it is going to need to do better to win a | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
majority in 2020. It certainly didn't produce any revival of | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
Labour's vote in Scotland, it didn't help much in Wales, and help in the | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
north or the Midlands and so I think we know that Corbyn isn't toxic in | :32:27. | :32:32. | |
London but he is a bit toxic in a lot of areas outside London. It | :32:33. | :32:35. | |
underlines Labour's strength in London. In the general election, bad | :32:36. | :32:42. | |
for Labour but in London, Labour did pretty well. And in 2010. Which way, | :32:43. | :32:54. | |
of course, underlines how unusual it was for Boris Johnson to win as a | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
Tory in a Labour city to talk but this new Labour MP is a junior | :32:59. | :33:05. | |
doctor and Labour has now, like Jo Cox, another strong, intelligent, | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
professional female MP. Yes, and indeed, to counter some of those who | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
were saying Labour could lose the seat, people who knew her Toby she | :33:14. | :33:16. | |
was a really impressive candidate and that she would do well. -- told | :33:17. | :33:23. | |
me. There is quite a high quality of MP coming in from these various | :33:24. | :33:30. | |
recent intakes and was interesting watching the tributes to Jo Cox on | :33:31. | :33:36. | |
Newsnight last night. You saw four young Labour MPs talking about her | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
in an impressive and very engaging way and there are some quite dynamic | :33:42. | :33:44. | |
figures coming into the House of commons. The constant complaint that | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
good people don't go into politics any more and that they are all | :33:49. | :33:55. | |
useless, but actually the recent intakes, as we were indicating | :33:56. | :33:57. | |
earlier, have been rather impressive. One cause for optimism | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
about British politics is that in spite of the public seemingly | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
becoming much more jaundiced about politicians, particularly in the | :34:07. | :34:09. | |
wake of the expenses scandal, it hasn't stopped good people from | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
wanting to become MPs. It hasn't deterred them. You might have | :34:15. | :34:15. | |
thought it would have done. Now, it's traditionally said civil | :34:16. | :34:17. | |
servants advise, ministers decide. But is the relationship between the | :34:18. | :34:19. | |
two quite that straightforward? Here's Giles Dilnot | :34:20. | :34:22. | |
with his latest guide Thanks to British cinema and the TV | :34:23. | :34:23. | |
series Yes, Minister, we've got a rather ingrained sense | :34:24. | :34:38. | |
of the British civil service, as elitist, grey suited, | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
bowler hatted snobs who frustrate government ministers and keep | :34:42. | :34:44. | |
power to themselves. But has Sir Humphrey finally left | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
Whitehall, and what do former Secretaries of State make | :34:49. | :34:51. | |
of who replaced him? That is the thing that is most | :34:52. | :34:58. | |
missed in the Sir Humphrey portrayal, which is that I don't | :34:59. | :35:01. | |
believe that civil servants are engaging in guerilla warfare | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
or tactics to try and stop the Secretary of State doing | :35:06. | :35:08. | |
things, if Secretaries of State give an indication | :35:09. | :35:10. | |
of what they want to achieve. The whole of the Civil Service | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
machine is predicated on the basis that it reports to a senior minister | :35:16. | :35:18. | |
and the senior minister will make decisions, | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
and the civil servants are very uncomfortable indeed | :35:23. | :35:25. | |
if they have to make If you frighten them, | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
if you never smile at them, Well, you know what I mean, | :35:30. | :35:35. | |
human conversation, they don't believe you when you suddenly say, | :35:36. | :35:44. | |
"Tell me if I'm wrong". The exact relationship | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
between politicians, who we vote in and out of office, | :35:50. | :35:51. | |
and the vast army of permanent public servants who serve them | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
is a complex one but it's based, I think there are two things that | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
civil servants don't like and that is a minister | :36:00. | :36:06. | |
who doesn't know his own mind and, secondly, a minister who does | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
know his own mind but won't listen to those who try to explain to him | :36:12. | :36:17. | |
the downstream consequences Now, that would suggest that just | :36:18. | :36:20. | |
because the Secretary of State says "do it", | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
it gets done. And that, of course, | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
is not always the case. You have to say, "This | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
is what I want and this is when I want it and I want | :36:33. | :36:34. | |
a progress report on the following frequencies," and then you have | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
to check up to make sure it happens. So it's not a job in which you can | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
wisely go to sleep. That is perhaps where the Yes, | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
Minister image of a civil servant paying only minor lip service | :36:48. | :36:50. | |
to their political masters may We'd have those discussions | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
and eventually I'd say, "Right, well, I've heard all you say | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
but I still want to do it". And then in the early days, | :37:00. | :37:02. | |
nothing would happen. And so after a couple of weeks, | :37:03. | :37:05. | |
I would say, "What's And I'd be told, "Well, | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
the officials want And I'd say, "No, no, no, no, | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
we've had the meeting and I've decided and when I've decided, | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
it's got to be done." Mrs Thatcher loved Yes, | :37:22. | :37:27. | |
Minister so much she appeared with the actors in a sketch, | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
but she was less lovely One of her ministers remembers | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
she walked in on a civil service forum to ask the public | :37:35. | :37:44. | |
what they made of a They brought in some people | :37:45. | :37:46. | |
and she went straight over, and they were elderly people | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
and she just knelt down by their chairs and said, "Now, tell | :37:53. | :37:54. | |
me, do you understand this form? Hoping, of course, that they would | :37:55. | :38:00. | |
denounce the form which, inevitably, they did, | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
because they were awful. And so she would summon civil | :38:07. | :38:09. | |
servants to hear the torrent However, Chris Huhne observed | :38:10. | :38:12. | |
in government first-hand one of the ways the civil | :38:13. | :38:18. | |
servants could fight back. The one that Whitehall | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
is particularly in favour And the doctrine of un-right time | :38:24. | :38:25. | |
says, "Oh, minister, that is an absolutely | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
brilliant thing to do, we're totally committed to it, | :38:31. | :38:31. | |
but is this absolutely the perfect moment at which one ought to launch | :38:32. | :38:34. | |
such a bold, ambitious Liam Fox entered the MoD at a time | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
when the state of the nation's finances meant he had | :38:39. | :38:44. | |
to be bold and tough. His civil servants were asked | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
to come in and justify some of their key projects and they got | :38:49. | :38:50. | |
quite a shock. I remember the first board | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
that we had and they obviously thought this was a charade of some | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
sort and we weren't really serious, I wanted to send a very clear | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
message out that we were serious about this and within a few | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
quarters, all our projects came back within time and within budget, or at | :39:08. | :39:10. | |
least what they said was in budget. But what is it like when you've | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
heard all the evidence and advice and decided, in the end, | :39:16. | :39:18. | |
not to take any of it? When you've got official | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
opinion saying to you, "This is what we should do," | :39:24. | :39:25. | |
and you have to then say, "No, I'm not going to go with that, | :39:26. | :39:28. | |
I'm going to go with something else," that's | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
a difficult thing to do. But, you know, any Secretary | :39:32. | :39:33. | |
of State worth their salt must be prepared to do that | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
at some point in time. The civil servants clearly serve | :39:37. | :39:38. | |
Secretaries of State but equally clear is the state of that | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
relationship is far more than simply We're getting reports that the Prime | :39:43. | :40:03. | |
Minister and the leader of the and are heading to Birstall, the scene | :40:04. | :40:10. | |
of Jo Cox's murder yesterday, where they will appear together and make a | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
joint statement. We haven't yet got the time for that. When we do, we | :40:15. | :40:20. | |
will let you have a. The civil service... When I did political | :40:21. | :40:27. | |
science at University, it had at particular esprit de corps. It was | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
overwhelmingly male. It was posh public school Oxbridge, they dressed | :40:32. | :40:38. | |
in Pinsky suits, bowler hats, even meant it that has totally changed. | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
-- dressed in pinstriped suits. When I go there, some of them seem pretty | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
scruffy to me! Does it still have that esprit de corps that it used to | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
have in the 1960s and 1970s? Or has it gone? I think it has gone a bit | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
but we were talking earlier about the underreported role of MPs in | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
constituencies, the other unreported element is how ministers deal with | :41:02. | :41:04. | |
their civil servants because we don't see it and yet it is | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
absolutely fundamental, as that report suggested. I think in some | :41:08. | :41:13. | |
blazers, there is still a slight sense of entitlement. One of the | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
important dynamics is the senior officials know they can be there for | :41:18. | :41:23. | |
a long, long time. Cabinet ministers could be out within ten minutes and | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
I think that gives them a sense of, at times, in some cases, superiority | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
over the Cabinet minister, and the test of a Cabinet minister is how | :41:34. | :41:36. | |
they deal with that. Some are brilliant at it, some are useless at | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
it, and it is one of the bits we don't get to see but one of the | :41:40. | :41:42. | |
reasons why some people are reshuffled pretty quickly is because | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
they can't work this relationship. Is at the Cabinet minister or the | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
civil servant that is reshuffled? The Cabinet minister! Hence the name | :41:51. | :41:56. | |
of the permanent secretary. The vulnerable ones are the Cabinet | :41:57. | :41:59. | |
ministers, who are supposed to be all-powerful and they quite often | :42:00. | :42:02. | |
aren't. As Andy Burnham suggests, it is a brave Cabinet minister that | :42:03. | :42:05. | |
challenges the advice of senior officials. Sometimes they do it and | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
our right to do it, other times they do it and I want to do it. Sometimes | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
there is tension because the Prime Minister feels a minister has been | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
captured by his civil servants. I know that was the view of Gordon | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
Brown about Alistair Darling and the Treasury, captured by the Treasury, | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
I heard that a few times. So it is absolutely fundamental but we don't | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
see it in front of our eyes. Here is a test of the British civil service. | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
Your side wins the referendum. That's just an assumption, not a | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
forecast. We vote to leave. There is a challenge because I would suggest | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
that the civil service, certainly be of echelons, are overwhelmingly for | :42:46. | :42:55. | |
remain. -- the upper echelons. We have learned that they have Wall | :42:56. | :42:58. | |
gained various and arias in different departments for coping | :42:59. | :43:06. | |
with a leave vote. -- war gamed. But it is interesting because people on | :43:07. | :43:12. | |
the Leave site will be very alert to any hint of betrayal or disloyalty | :43:13. | :43:15. | |
on behalf of the government or the civil service, particularly jarring | :43:16. | :43:18. | |
what will be a very fraught negotiation with the rest of the EU, | :43:19. | :43:21. | |
in which various concessions will have to be made on both sides, so it | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
will be a difficult position. It will be logistically a massive | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
disentanglement of the UK from all the treaties, trade agreements, and | :43:32. | :43:34. | |
there is talk that they going to have to bring in specialists from | :43:35. | :43:37. | |
all over the place to deal with this because they're not equipped to come | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
visit, because they haven't had to before. Canadians? There could be | :43:42. | :43:48. | |
plenty more work for Canadians! To keep you up-to-date with some | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
breaking news, the Daily Mail is reporting that the Conservatives | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
will not contest Batley and Spen. We don't want to talk about | :43:57. | :43:59. | |
by-elections at the moment as a result of Jo Cox's death, and we | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
won't, but inevitably there will be a by-election at some stage and we | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
understand from the Daily Mail that the Conservatives will not contest | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
it. We haven't yet been able to corroborate that. | :44:12. | :44:12. | |
Now, digital campaigning and social media hasn't yet taken over | :44:13. | :44:14. | |
from more traditional means of reaching the voters. | :44:15. | :44:16. | |
You still need to tramp the streets or come on shows like this | :44:17. | :44:19. | |
if you really want to get your message home. | :44:20. | :44:22. | |
But things are clearly changing, and both sides in the EU referendum | :44:23. | :44:24. | |
campaign are using Facebook, YouTube and Twitter to try to mobilise | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
their own voters and reach out to new ones. | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
Tuning into social media this past month, there's been... | :44:33. | :44:41. | |
This is more of a comment than a question and it will be | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
Thank you very much for postponing your bedtime! | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
They're trying to make television social. | :44:51. | :44:52. | |
Boris's ITV appearance keeping Twitter busy, | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
Five seconds to stop others... WHISTLE ..with your future. | :44:56. | :45:05. | |
We have a dominatrix, where Europe is the dominatrix | :45:06. | :45:11. | |
and the Union Jack is on its knees and is being told what to do. | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
Ah, efforts to reach new voters must be in overdrive, then. | :45:16. | :45:18. | |
We'll find out what's going on because we're going to meet | :45:19. | :45:20. | |
the two women who run the biggest Twitter dataset in the UK. | :45:21. | :45:23. | |
Or at least that's what they tell me. | :45:24. | :45:25. | |
So we have created a little Twitter lab. | :45:26. | :45:27. | |
We want to find out how both the Leave and Remain campaigns | :45:28. | :45:38. | |
are using the internet to get their message | :45:39. | :45:40. | |
When we count those, we see that the number of hashtags | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
that are being tweeted out are 3% for Remain and 97% for Leave, | :45:46. | :45:48. | |
at the beginning of the campaign in August. | :45:49. | :45:50. | |
When we look at it now, we have around 25% to 35% Remain | :45:51. | :45:53. | |
The story is always, it's the ones most motivated, | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
the ones with most of an axe to grind, that act on Twitter. | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
That might explain some of the disparities. | :46:02. | :46:03. | |
So what's the nature of the debate like on Twitter? | :46:04. | :46:07. | |
So here's the big question - what percentage of people | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
who are on Twitter are talking about the referendum? | :46:13. | :46:14. | |
We reckon from our study that about 0.06% of those who are talking | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
on Twitter are actually talking about the European referendum, | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
so it's a really tiny amount of that motivated public. | :46:25. | :46:27. | |
But there's still tens of millions of people tweeting | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
Beyond the echo chamber of Twitter, though, researchers | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
from Think Tank Demos have found that social media has been | :46:36. | :46:38. | |
motivating large numbers to get out and vote. | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
During research we've done on the general election, | :46:44. | :46:45. | |
figures coming in the next few weeks, we've found that social media | :46:46. | :46:48. | |
is an incredibly important voter mobilisation tool. | :46:49. | :46:51. | |
It's probably convinced millions across the UK to actually vote, | :46:52. | :46:54. | |
whereas they otherwise wouldn't have. | :46:55. | :46:55. | |
And you think that will be reflected in the referendum? | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
I think that digital politics is only becoming more important. | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
This referendum campaign has also seen Facebook tighten its grip | :47:04. | :47:05. | |
As well as its tried and tested targeted ads that helped the Tories | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
win the last general election, there have been 38 million comments, | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
shares and likes globally during chat about the referendum, | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
in just 13 weeks, in which 30 million daily UK users have | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
discussed the economy, health and immigration the most. | :47:24. | :47:26. | |
In order to have success in digital advertising, you need both | :47:27. | :47:29. | |
The Remain side has within it the central strategist from the very | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
They also need money to do that and that's where | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
I don't think that the main impact of social media is really how | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
the central campaigns are doing it, I think the main impact | :47:44. | :47:45. | |
is in the grassroots ground swell of activity that we see | :47:46. | :47:48. | |
There is something in the antiestablishment message | :47:49. | :47:51. | |
of Brexit, there is something in the electricity and energy | :47:52. | :47:54. | |
which we can see Brexit throwing into this at a grassroots level, | :47:55. | :47:57. | |
which I think has to imply that they're getting more of a boost | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
So, how significant could social media be | :48:01. | :48:06. | |
Well, hot off the press - thank you - we've been handed | :48:07. | :48:11. | |
the latest YouGov poll, which suggests that one in five | :48:12. | :48:14. | |
swing voters use Twitter or Facebook as their main source of information, | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
But - and here's the catch - many of them don't trust | :48:19. | :48:24. | |
what they read online, preferring instead what their friends | :48:25. | :48:27. | |
or family have to say or, believe it or not, | :48:28. | :48:29. | |
And we're joined by Marcus Roberts from the polling firm YouGov. | :48:30. | :48:40. | |
Treat has confirmed the Conservatives will not put of a | :48:41. | :48:48. | |
candidate at the Batley Spen by-election when it comes after the | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
murder of Jo Cox MP yesterday. The Conservatives will not contest it. | :48:54. | :49:00. | |
We're also seeing reports from Paul Waugh of the huffing ton post. We | :49:01. | :49:03. | |
are expecting a recall of the Commons. We've not been able to | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
confirm that. Paul, a reliable reporter. That's what he's saying. | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
When we hear about it confirmed, we'll let you know too. We're joined | :49:13. | :49:19. | |
by Marcus Roberts from the polling service YouGov. | :49:20. | :49:20. | |
He's got experience of working on digital campaigns, | :49:21. | :49:22. | |
Would it be fair to say digital campaigns are an essential part of a | :49:23. | :49:32. | |
political campaign? You need them? Absolutely. Let's understand what | :49:33. | :49:39. | |
social media's good for con campaigns. Twitter is good for | :49:40. | :49:46. | |
rallying existing supporters. It is good tor he can echoing the elite | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
shameer of the SW 1 postcode. It is not a good tool for reaching out to | :49:52. | :49:58. | |
voters. What is, is Facebook. Whilst Facebook is still only trusted as a | :49:59. | :50:04. | |
major source of information by about 15% of voters, voters in are YouGov | :50:05. | :50:12. | |
surveys consistently tell us they trust in politics information from | :50:13. | :50:17. | |
friends and family another than any other source of information, | :50:18. | :50:24. | |
television or newspapers. The prize for Leave or Remain is to get their | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
supporters through Facebook, to tell their friends and family, this is | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
how I'm voting. It is not perceived as a social media influence, it is a | :50:35. | :50:37. | |
personal one which has power. Interesting on this evidence on | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
Facebook. More and more I see people are getting their news from | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
Facebook. It's not Facebook news. From other sources but they are | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
reading it on their Facebook areas. And their friends are sharing | :50:53. | :50:57. | |
stories. Have a look at this. ' You see that and so on. A number of | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
Labour politicians said to me in the aftermath of their defeat last year | :51:03. | :51:06. | |
instead of going on and on about the ground campaign, they had this | :51:07. | :51:09. | |
wonderful ground campaign they should have spent a lot more money | :51:10. | :51:15. | |
on Facebook. Sement Murphy says if he had his time again as Scottish | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
Labour Leader, he would have spent almost all his money on Facebook. | :51:20. | :51:25. | |
But that spending falls into two categories. Advertising, promoted | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
posts from the campaign and two, something we really don't know | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
about, targeted sharing. That's where you ask as a campaign an | :51:36. | :51:41. | |
existing supporter to press a butt to share a suppress I'vic link with | :51:42. | :51:45. | |
specific friends and family members that the campaign's targeted as | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
being more susceptible to your inflewence. On the Obama campaign in | :51:50. | :51:58. | |
2012, they believe about 600,000 voters used target sharing ability | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
to influence 500,000 voters across America ma. We don't know the scale | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
the leave and remain are sharing. But we'll see this was a major | :52:08. | :52:10. | |
factor in the spending of both campaigns. It changes the nature of | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
our campaigning in terms of finance forever in this country. Unlike the | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
United States and some other countries, you cannot buy political | :52:21. | :52:25. | |
advertising. One of the reasons American campaigns are so expensive. | :52:26. | :52:29. | |
Billions of pounds are spent on spot advertising. There's no regulation | :52:30. | :52:35. | |
of buying political advertising on social media. You can make video and | :52:36. | :52:41. | |
American-style TV commercials. You can. Won of the worries about the | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
forthcoming presidential election, Facebook and the people who own | :52:48. | :52:50. | |
Facebook appear to be pro-Hillary and will do what they can to promote | :52:51. | :52:57. | |
Hillary and do down Trump. Can they do anything? There was an argument | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
that theal rhythms were biased to the left. It is not Facebook | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
providing here is the news from Facebook. You go on to your Facebook | :53:07. | :53:10. | |
account and you've got certain news you follow. People, your friends | :53:11. | :53:15. | |
send you news as well. It's news from the BBC or the newspapers or | :53:16. | :53:20. | |
whatever. Yeah, it is interesting. I follow all of you on Twitter. Are | :53:21. | :53:25. | |
gripped by Twitter. I've been told this is marginal, as you confirm, in | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
terms of the wider political spectrum. It's all on Facebook. At | :53:30. | :53:35. | |
the last election, the Conservatives had some brilliant social media | :53:36. | :53:38. | |
strategists who had this completely in their minds. All that talk about | :53:39. | :53:43. | |
Labour winning a ground war and so on was completely surpassed by these | :53:44. | :53:48. | |
geniuses at Conservative headquarters targeted voters through | :53:49. | :53:52. | |
this Facebook mechanism. They'd been hired by the Remain group now who | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
are clearly trying to do the same. I imagine the outers are also on to | :53:57. | :54:03. | |
this. If you're right, it's of greater significance than landing of | :54:04. | :54:06. | |
a newspaper, the online stuff and all the rest of it, that this | :54:07. | :54:10. | |
passing of information through friends. What's important is it's | :54:11. | :54:16. | |
only as good as the message that you're selling. The problem the | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
Labour Party field organisers and regional staff and campaign staff | :54:22. | :54:25. | |
had last year was how good was the product they were really selling. | :54:26. | :54:31. | |
The problem Remain and Leave will be asking, is how good is the product | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
they're selling? Facebook, social media, ground campaigns can be great | :54:37. | :54:40. | |
and very well targeted and professionally executed. If the | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
message doesn't resonate, you'll always have a problem. Good to know | :54:45. | :54:50. | |
wherever the media is the message still matters. | :54:51. | :54:51. | |
So, it's been a week defined by increasingly hectic campaigning | :54:52. | :54:53. | |
ahead of next week's EU referendum and by tragedy, | :54:54. | :54:56. | |
Here's Giles with our regular round-up of the week in 60 seconds. | :54:57. | :55:03. | |
On Monday, a rainbow coalition of MPs turned out for a vigil | :55:04. | :55:06. | |
to remember the victims of the mass shooting at the Pulse gay | :55:07. | :55:09. | |
Labour ramped up the case for Remain in the EU referendum campaign | :55:10. | :55:15. | |
this week, with a number of Shadow Cabinet members delivering | :55:16. | :55:17. | |
speeches, despite one or two vocal opponents. | :55:18. | :55:20. | |
George Osborne warned on Wednesday that he'd have to slash | :55:21. | :55:23. | |
spending and increase taxes in the event of Brexit, | :55:24. | :55:25. | |
but 65 of his own MPs immediately responded, | :55:26. | :55:28. | |
saying they'd never support what they described | :55:29. | :55:30. | |
The Chancellor basically needs to calm down and, regrettably, | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
Philip Green did appear in front of a select committee to answer | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
He said he shouldn't have sold the company to Dominic Chappell | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
and vowed to sort out its pensions problem. | :55:46. | :55:51. | |
On Thursday afternoon, the EU referendum campaigns | :55:52. | :55:53. | |
were suspended following the news that MP Jo Cox had been | :55:54. | :55:56. | |
A minute's silence was held in memory of the Batley | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
So, campaigning has been suspended ahead of next week's EU referendum | :56:01. | :56:12. | |
But the Remain campaign has confirmed to the Daily Politics | :56:13. | :56:19. | |
that their campaign will resume tomorrow, | :56:20. | :56:22. | |
and continue through until next Thursday. | :56:23. | :56:24. | |
We've not been able to confirm when the Leave campaign | :56:25. | :56:27. | |
. But we've not been able to confirm that. It is a short break. There are | :56:28. | :56:37. | |
some thinking that perhaps it should be suspended through the weekend and | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
the Commons should come back. That doesn't look like it will happen? | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
The Commons might come back but not that long break in the campaign? No. | :56:47. | :56:51. | |
If you think about it, there are just a few days to go. It would have | :56:52. | :56:57. | |
been impossible to extend it however tragic the context of yesterday. So, | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
it is inevitable. It will still have an impact on the tone and people | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
will have to be very careful, the leading figures on both sides, how | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
they play that resuming of the campaigning as from tomorrow. So, I | :57:12. | :57:16. | |
think there will be an ongoing impact. If Parliament is recalled on | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
Monday, that also will have an impact on the campaign. They can't | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
really be campaigning that day? No, they'll all be back here. It will be | :57:27. | :57:30. | |
interesting to hear if that's confirmed. It will have an impact on | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
Monday. Getting close. Only two days after that. Both sides of the | :57:35. | :57:41. | |
campaign will feet the weight of Jo Cox's murder as they do return to | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
campaigning. They will be careful, I would think, of the tone? Yes. I | :57:47. | :57:52. | |
think it would be wrong to assume even in the absence of Jo Cox's | :57:53. | :57:57. | |
murder the tone would deteriorate further and the atmosphere become | :57:58. | :58:02. | |
more February rile. I was talking to a senior campaign strategist who | :58:03. | :58:05. | |
said in the final week of the campaign what both sides need to do | :58:06. | :58:08. | |
is produce a positive, optimistic message. That tends to be the | :58:09. | :58:12. | |
pattern in campaigns. It's easier, I think, for the Brexit side, Steve | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
May disagree, to come up with an optimistic reason to vote Leave than | :58:18. | :58:23. | |
the Remain side to come up. I disagree with that. I knew you | :58:24. | :58:27. | |
would. We don't know yet. We won't go into it. Too early yet. But we | :58:28. | :58:31. | |
don't know yet what the impact of this will be on the referendum. That | :58:32. | :58:36. | |
is for days to come. I thank you both for being with me on this day. | :58:37. | :58:39. | |
I think all of our guests. The one o'clock news is starting | :58:40. | :58:41. | |
over on BBC One now. And I'll be back on Sunday | :58:42. | :58:44. | |
with the Sunday Politics, | :58:45. | :58:48. |