17/06/2016 Daily Politics


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There's a sombre mood here at Westminster,


as politicians try to come to terms with the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox.


Tributes have been paid by politicians from all sides


and from around the world to the campaigning MP,


who was just at the start of her promising political career.


We'll be speaking to a former friend and colleague.


Her murder has underlined the risks faced by our elected representatives


as they try to remain accessible and meet with their constituents.


Her death overshadowed last night's by-election in Tooting,


which saw Labour hold the seat and double its majority.


We'll be talking about the sometimes uneasy relationship


between ministers and civil servants.


And with us for the whole of the programme today


are the journalists Steve Richards and Toby Young.


Westminster and the country are in a state of shock this morning


following the murder of the Labour MP Jo Cox in her West Yorkshire


The 41-year-old, who was only elected to the Commons at last


year's general election, was attacked as she left her


constituency surgery in the village of Birstall


The mother-of-two came to politics following a career at Oxfam,


and had made a name for herself campaigning for the government


to accept more child refugees from Syria.


The day before the murder, she had been campaigning


for the Remain campaign on a flotilla on the Thames.


-- watching her husband and children join a flotilla on the Thames.


She is the only woman to have been murdered while serving as an MP,


and the first MP since Ian Gow was killed by the IRA in 1990.


Campaigning ahead of next week's EU referendum has been suspended


and politicians from all sides have paid tribute.


Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn praised her as a much-loved collague,


whle the Prime Minister described her as a committed and caring MP.


Yesterday a vigil was held outside Parliament, while hundreds of people


filled a church in Birstall for a service of remembrance.


A 52-year-old man, named locally as Tommy Mair, has been arrested.


He was reported by some to have shouted "put Britain first",


though other witnesses have challenged that.


Details are emerging indicating past links


to far-right groups, though these have still


His family say he never talked politics with them.


Well, a short while ago, I spoke to our correspondent


I asked her about the response today of the local people. Floral tributes


have been made here all morning, look at them, and they will be


continued to be made here throughout the dated rock people coming here


from all backgrounds, all faiths. One card here, Andrew, simply says,


"To a Yorkshire Rose". Jo Cox was born and bred here in West Yorkshire


and in this part of the world, that means a lot. Yes, she did campaign


on the major international issues but people here will tell you that


no issue was too small. They'll tell you that she was involved with a


campaign for a pedestrian crossing, she was supporting a family who had


an autistic child, and they'll tell you that they would stop and talk to


her in the street and talk about her personal or private problems. One


woman said, "We voted for her, we gave her voice, and now it has been


silenced". And a local man has been arrested and is in custody. What do


we know about him? He's a 52-year-old man. He has been named


locally as Tommy Mair but that hasn't been confirmed by West


Yorkshire Police. We're learning a bit more about him. Humidity in the


village of Birstall for about 30 years. He lived alone. He did local


jobs for the local people. There are ports of family members saying that


he had mental health issues, that they were dealt with, again


something that has not been confirmed by West Yorkshire Police.


But here on the ground, the investigation is still very much


continuing this morning. Officers have been carrying out a fingertip


search outside the library where Joe Cox was stamped and shot yesterday.


This huge police cordoned around the heart of Birstall, the Market


Square, hasn't moved overnight, and that's something that is very


difficult for people... It is a reminder of what happened here


yesterday, it's something they are having to expend their children as


they were taking them to school this morning, the very school that was on


lockdown yesterday because the police weren't entirely sure what


was going on at that stage. So difficult to come to terms with this


in their daily lives and, of course, the loss of their local MP, who was


much loved it. That is the latest from Birstall, the scene of the


crime. We had no indication yet from the police as to when they will make


another formal statement. So far, they only made a brief one last


night which announced the sad death of the MP from the wounds in the


attack. The gave no indication as to when the police are going to say any


more. Well, as we said, tributes to Jo Cox


have been made by politicians of all parties here and her death has also


made a big impact around the world. We're expecting to hear from the


Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn in the next hour. This has been a major


international story. Firstly, a statement


from Hillary Clinton: Australian Prime Minister Malcolm


Turnbull, posted a tweet saying... Canadian Prime Minister


Justin Trudeau tweeted... Well, that maiden speech you heard


referred to there was widely Many honourable and right honourable


members will lay claim, I'm sure, to their constituencies


being constituencies of two halves Batley and Spen is very much that


kind of constituency. And it's a joy to represent such


a diverse community. Batley and Spen is a gathering


of typically independent, no-nonsense proud Yorkshire


towns and villages. Our communities have been deeply


enhanced by immigration, be it Irish Catholics


across the constituency or Muslims from Indian Gujarat or from


Pakistan, principally from Kashmir. And whilst we celebrate our


diversity, the thing that surprises me time and time again


as I travel around the constituency is that we are far more united


and have far more in common My constituency is also


home to Fox's Biscuits and Lion Confectionery,


so I'm sure you will not think it an indulgence, Mr Speaker,


if I describe Batley and Spen as a constituency with an industrial


heart wrapped in a very rich and pleasant Yorkshire landscape,


geographical, The spirit of nonconformity


is as prevalent now in my part of West Yorkshire


as it was in the time of my two immediate predecessors,


Mike Wood and Elizabeth Peacock. They were both known


for their own brand of independent, nonconformist service,


albeit in very different ways. And I intend to maintain that


established tradition Jo Cox making her maiden speech


in the Commons last year. She was speaking about the


constituency of which she was so proud and where she had been brought


up. Well, to talk about Jo Cox's life


and her contribution to public life, we're joined by her friend and


colleague the Labour MP Mary Creagh. Mary Creagh, Joe Cox was a


politician strong principles, strong views on a number of matters, but I


always got the impression she was one of the least triable politicians


in the House of commons. Is that right? That certainly is. Jo had


only been in Parliament for 18 short months but in that time, she was


keen to learn, she sought advice, she took a device, and she was


absolutely determined to work across parties for the causes that she


passionately believed in. And she worked with Andrew Mitchell and


other Conservative colleagues to set up the cross-party group on Syria.


She was instrumental in forcing the government to change its policy and


getting them to accent the 3000 unaccompanied Syrian asylum seeking


children. -- to accept. And she was a force of nature and if there were


any obstacles in her path, she would not go around them, she would go


straight through them. And at a time when it is a common criticism that


so many of our politicians are career politicians, that they've


never done anything else but come out of university and go straight


into politics, she had a hinterland, didn't she? She had done other


things, particularly in the field of development aid, with NGOs, and what


she had done in formed her when she became a politician. That's right.


Jo had a long and distinguished career in the humanitarian field and


she'd worked for Oxfam and Save the Children, NSPCC, so she had a huge


amount of experience to call an and she had campaigned globally and she


brought all of that wisdom, that insight back-to-back league, back to


the area where she was born and brought up. -- back to Batley. To


fight on behalf of the people she had grown up with and who loved so


dearly. She was noted for her compassion, particularly on these


issues, and her decency, but you was also - and this isn't always used of


politicians, I would suggest that Mark seen as just normal. She


certainly was. She was a mother and we would sometimes chat about our


various childcare issues. She would bring her two children into


Parliament sometimes to have tea. She lived on a houseboat, she cycled


in and out of Parliament and I remember one night trying to catch


up with this woman who was going quite a lot faster with me and I


drew level with her at the traffic lights and looked across and we both


just burst out laughing and I said, "I'm afraid you're going a bit too


fast for me, Jo, you'd better crack on without me". So she lived every


day to the full. She had an energy, and exuberance and the weight that


made every room she walked into light up and it is beyond words that


that surely and that life and that brilliance has been snuffed out and


taken so cruelly. Mary Creagh, thank you for joining us and sharing those


thoughts on Jo Cox to what are your thoughts? There are many. There is


sadness about what has happened. What is interesting about the


coverage since is that there has been the focus on this dedicated MP


the consideration seek -- in the constituency, running a surgery for


local constituents, and normally it is that bit of the MP's world which


gets very little coverage at all. There is this assumption that they


are in the so-called Westminster bubble all the time. Actually, we


journalists are in it all the time. I've always thought that we are more


of a bubble than MPs because they have to go back to people in places


like Birstall. The idea that they are out of touch is one of the great


dangerous myths of British politics and there is a tendency and the


default position of whatever story comes up to blame politicians, and


to give a ten second example, when that Panama scandal about tax came


up, I was asked by somebody on a comment desk, "Will you do a piece


saying MPs should immediately make all their tax returns transparent


and publicly available er" as if they were somehow culpable. It is a


default position that they are bunch of crooks and I don't know how we've


got to that position. It is a genuine mystery to me to talk we let


them so it must be a kind of self-loathing that we let them and


then get into this default position that they are all a bunch of crooks


and the focus today is entirely different and freakishly unusual.


Will this lead to us revaluing, maybe even valuing more, the work of


politicians, or is it just an aberration in the sadness of Jo


Cox's murder, and it will default back to the previous position? You


always hope when something tragic like this happens that something of


value will come out of it and one hope is that people will remember


just what a good-hearted and hard-working constituency MP Jo Cox


was the next time they feel inclined to respond in this knee jerk,


hostile way to some sin of the political class. But will things


change? One thing I hope doesn't change is that MPs become much more


nervous about their security and there is less contact between the


MPs and their constituents. We'll talk about that in a minute. Jo Cox


was an interesting example of the changing nature of MPs on both sides


of the Commons. If you look first at the 2010 but then the 2015 intake,


there were different voices on both sides of the House, not


traditionally what you would normally expect. We had been talking


all along about politics being nothing but a career, you go to


university, usually Oxbridge, then you are straight into the House, but


she is an example of a number of a new generation of MPs that don't fit


that stereotype, was in cheek was Bob -- wasn't she?


There's another thing unreported. There are others on both sides, a


big cultural shift and they feel in a way more accountable to their


constituents, I think, to say the leaders of the their parties. That's


been on both sides absolutely. And that's another important shift. I


think probably we political journalists need to get out more and


see what their other lives are like. What I'm not saying, is this


collective outpouring of genuine grief and sadness across the


political spectrum means somehow politics can be without conflict and


battles. The whole essence of politics, it's a noble vocation. You


decide disputes through word and debate and not force. People who say


it should be bland now and everyone should be in agreement... It's not


our style. Not what politics is about. But, if we can he is swap


this anti-politics asimplings that when anything happens it is the


fault of those we elect, that will be healthy. She was an independent


Labour MP. Her own woman. There are a number of people on both sides of


the House. A number of people who have only recently got into the


House, despite you thinking they're on the greasy pole on their way up,


you do that by being loyal and don't rock the boat. I can think of a


number of MPs on both sides that don't do that. They say what they


think and they vote the way they want. That was true of the 2010


intake and also true of the 2015 intake. They are much more


rebellious, much less likely to tow the party line. More


independent-minded. You can see the authority of party leaders and whips


declining and the authority the Speaker increasing in the last


Parliament and this Parliament. If you believe in politics and MPs are


there to represent the views of their constituents and not just tow


the party line, that's a good thing. It's remarkable how these things


come and hit us. You don't see any of this going and suddenly, we look


at trends, look at news events coming up, who's up, who's down and


something happens and it changes everything. Exactly. We often on


this programme and others follow patterns. Work out what happens


next. Something tragically happening like this, the mood has completely


changed. There's no campaigning tomorrow, I was supposed to a


one-on-one interview with Iain Duncan Smith. My fourth, but that's


been changed. Something simple mattic of things which have changed,


the by-election when it takes place in Jo Cox's constituency shouldn't


be contested by another party. It should be a Labour seat. I've seen


suggestions of that. You can't stop people standing in a by-election,


independent candidates. Perhaps the main parties will decide not to


contest it. Now, this attack on an MP as she


held a constituency surgery has raised questions over the safety


of our elected representatives Like most MPs, Jo Cox held


a well-publicised, regular surgery for her constituents to come


to to talk about their problems. The House of Commons yesterday


said it has re-issued security advice to MPs,


and details of the kind of threats made to them on a regular


basis have been emerging. So, just what is the


extent of the problem? Well, psychiatrists conducted


a sobering study The Home Office report


found that 80% of MPs had been victims of intrusive


or aggressive behaviour. One in five said they had been


subject to attack including one who reported being


repeatedly punched in the face and A further 41% said they had received


threats of harm against them. One told the researchers "There were


numerous reports of death threats, both in person and by mail, and bomb


threats." A fifth of MPs reported threats of


property damage, including petrol poured through the


letterbox, tyres slashed and paint stripper


poured over their vehicles. And, worryingly, almost two in five


MPs report being stalked, with half of those saying it had


gone on for more than a year. The psychiatrists found that younger


women were particularly targeted. Earlier today, the Labour MP


Stephen Timms, who was previously attacked at his surgery,


spoke about how security Well, after I was attacked,


six years ago now, the police spoke to,


I think, every MP about the arrangements


in their constituency surgeries, That perhaps should happen


again and there may be But what none of us would want


is a big change in the culture of our country, which would make it


much harder for people to get We're joined now from Croydon by


the Conservative MP Gavin Barwell. Parliament is a fortress surrounded


by armed police. It has concrete bunkers and all the rest of it. But


the constituencies is where they could be much more vulnerable. We're


joined from Croydon by the Conservative MP Gavin Barwell. He


was threatened in his constituency surgery in the last month. You were


met with an aggressive constituent earlier this month. Talk us through


what happened to you? Yes, Andrew, someone had booked to come and see


me at my surgery. It very rapidly became apparent the individual was


very disturbed. We asked him to leave. He refused to do so. The


police were called. He then became very agitated, started kicking the


furniture around. Threatened to attack me and kill me. At that


point, the police arrived and he was arrested and subsequently discovered


to have a knife on him. What's your reaction to this Home Office report,


this survey? I may be wrong but I don't remember it getting much


publicity at the time. It seems now very pertinent and important. It


seems we have a serious problem here which, by and large, has been


ignored. Is that fair? It is difficult to strike the right


proportion. I wasn't aware of that report. A month ago, eyed aide have


said in six years of being an MP I wouldn't feel threatened. The


majority of people I deal with are kind and generous. There are often


people who have particular health problems that can pose a threat. We


have to find a way of making sure MPs think about their security and


the security of their staff and families but don't stop doing our


job to go out, meet people, go to community events. The job can never


be made 100% safe. This is a balance here. It is difficult. I remember as


a kid my parents taking me to Downing Street. You could just walk


in. You could walk up the street and stand outside the door. There was a


policeman there. That was it. Today, there are armed guards, all swords


of -- sorts of security measures. You can't just walk in. I could


remember party conferences where you could walk in and out. No grate


security. Today, there's a ring of steel around the conference of which


ever party's in Government. We still have this ability to approach our


MPs in constituencies. We can walk in off the street in many areas and


speak to them. That would now seem potentially to be dangerous. That


could now go, couldn't it? I hope it won't. I think, obviously you were


right to say party of the week we work in one of the most secure


locations in the country. There are things you can do at your


constituency office to increase security. But, even if you do that,


I spend a huge amount of my time knocking on people's doors or


attending community events. You can't make those locations


completely secure. I represent one of the most diverse parts of the


country. I regularly meet people from other parts of the world. They


are amazed when I knock on their door, bump into them on the street.


They come from places where politicians are surrounded by


security. You can't go up and shake their hand. Talk to them. That's


pricks. It is one of the reasons why when you ask people what they think


of lair local MP they have a much higher regard than politicians.


Parliament used to be a male monopoly. It's not now. There are a


growing number of female MPs. A lot, like Jo Cox, pretty young women


beginning their political careers. They seem to be a particularly


target in terms of being physically stalked. They seem, most


disgustingly of all, in a way, targets on social media? Yes. I


think there is a lot of evidence of that. We certainly need to look at


what more we can do to address those kinds of issues. Any MP will tell


you there is a massive contrast how you get treated when you meet people


face-to-face and what you get anonymously on social media. It is


really striking. Any MP will say that. You are right to say some


female colleagues get particularly bad treatment in that regard. Thank


you for joining us. Safety in your constituency and surgeries. Steve, I


saw you nodding there when I went through the Downing Street days and


party conferences. Clearly MPs are aware of this, striking the balance,


there must be a danger even our MPs, when they're in their


constituencies, are going to be more can cocooned than they have been? I


hope not. I nodded because I had the same experience. You could walk into


Downing Street and stand outside Number Ten. Policeman would move a


bit. Prime Minister's in there. It felt exciting and accessible. This


is one of the problems. The myth they're Alcock cooned. One of the


reasons they are seen as that is because of security at key political


moments, they are. You can't walk into Downing Street now. The House


of Commons is a fortress. Party conferences, it is like trying to


get in to, well, it is a security fortress. I think, actually, if


won't happen because it will be frankly impossible to police on the


scale required. When MPs are wandering around their local


constituencies. It can't happen. That level of connect is so


fundamental, I don't think it can. But obviously people will be


exploring this. My assumption is it would be healthy if that were not to


happen. Yet we've seen it in the United States. They don't have quite


the same constituency relationship. Centres have security -- senators


have security. The chairman of the Federal Reserve has and so on. It's


become a feature of the modern world? Yes, bus I think that


politicians are at greater risk in the United States than they are


here. One of the reasons, what happened to Jo Cox yesterday was so


deeply shocking because that kind of thing happens to rarely in Britain.


And like Steve, I really hope that this doesn't mean that we move to a


much more cocooned system in which politicians don't have that direct


contact with ordinary people. We shall see. Bernard Jenkins is


telling us because of threats to him, he has to hold his


constituency, he has somebody in the room. It is clear he has somebody in


the room that can help to look after him should it go wrong. One of the


ironies, a lot of these backbenchers are hard working but not hugely


powerful figures actually are. There is an awerings they could change the


world with a flick of their wrists that's not the case. We've just


heard that the Prime Minister is on his way to Jo Cox's constituency in


West Yorkshire and will be arriving shortly.


Now, yesterday saw Labour hold the seat of Tooting in South London.


The vote was triggered by Sadiq Khan's election as London Mayor


and, despite being a Conservative target seat, junior doctor


Rosena Allin-Khan more than doubled Labour's majority,


But there was little applause at the count,


and she devoted her speech to Jo Cox.


And I do hereby declare that Allin-Khan, Rosena


is duly elected for the Tooting constituency.


First of all, I would like to give my profound


thanks to the people of Tooting for electing me as their MP.


But my thoughts and prayers are with Jo's husband


She was a proud and passionate campaigner, who will be


Jo's death reminds us that our democracy is precious but fragile.


Thousands of people voted today and we are all here in recognition


And if the terrible events in West Yorkshire hadn't happened yesterday,


the winner of the Tooting by-election would have become the


100th female Labour MP. Tooting... We were told that the demographics


were changing, to sympathise, it was becoming posher and therefore


perhaps more Tory. No sign of that in this by-election. It is


interesting and it is the second one. When Sadiq Khan first won the


moel thing, there was a lot of talk amongst those hoping that Jeremy


Corbyn would fall quickly. -- the mayoral thing. It happened just


before Christmas... Was at an old, the by-election? Labour won that


comfortably. So as far as you can extrapolate much from by-elections,


the again cocooned media consumption that Jeremy Corbyn, everything he


touches will turn to disaster, is simply not the case. However, of


course, at this point in the electoral cycle, you would assume


that the party would hold it so that is a qualification. But for those


who say that the party is imploding under Corbyn, here is more proof


that this is not the case. It confirms a more nuanced picture of


the impact of Jeremy Corbyn on Labour's vote, which is that it is


not going to have a negative impact in London, particularly in central


London. Where Labour didn't fare particularly well in the local


elections were areas where it is going to need to do better to win a


majority in 2020. It certainly didn't produce any revival of


Labour's vote in Scotland, it didn't help much in Wales, and help in the


north or the Midlands and so I think we know that Corbyn isn't toxic in


London but he is a bit toxic in a lot of areas outside London. It


underlines Labour's strength in London. In the general election, bad


for Labour but in London, Labour did pretty well. And in 2010. Which way,


of course, underlines how unusual it was for Boris Johnson to win as a


Tory in a Labour city to talk but this new Labour MP is a junior


doctor and Labour has now, like Jo Cox, another strong, intelligent,


professional female MP. Yes, and indeed, to counter some of those who


were saying Labour could lose the seat, people who knew her Toby she


was a really impressive candidate and that she would do well. -- told


me. There is quite a high quality of MP coming in from these various


recent intakes and was interesting watching the tributes to Jo Cox on


Newsnight last night. You saw four young Labour MPs talking about her


in an impressive and very engaging way and there are some quite dynamic


figures coming into the House of commons. The constant complaint that


good people don't go into politics any more and that they are all


useless, but actually the recent intakes, as we were indicating


earlier, have been rather impressive. One cause for optimism


about British politics is that in spite of the public seemingly


becoming much more jaundiced about politicians, particularly in the


wake of the expenses scandal, it hasn't stopped good people from


wanting to become MPs. It hasn't deterred them. You might have


thought it would have done. Now, it's traditionally said civil


servants advise, ministers decide. But is the relationship between the


two quite that straightforward? Here's Giles Dilnot


with his latest guide Thanks to British cinema and the TV


series Yes, Minister, we've got a rather ingrained sense


of the British civil service, as elitist, grey suited,


bowler hatted snobs who frustrate government ministers and keep


power to themselves. But has Sir Humphrey finally left


Whitehall, and what do former Secretaries of State make


of who replaced him? That is the thing that is most


missed in the Sir Humphrey portrayal, which is that I don't


believe that civil servants are engaging in guerilla warfare


or tactics to try and stop the Secretary of State doing


things, if Secretaries of State give an indication


of what they want to achieve. The whole of the Civil Service


machine is predicated on the basis that it reports to a senior minister


and the senior minister will make decisions,


and the civil servants are very uncomfortable indeed


if they have to make If you frighten them,


if you never smile at them, Well, you know what I mean,


human conversation, they don't believe you when you suddenly say,


"Tell me if I'm wrong". The exact relationship


between politicians, who we vote in and out of office,


and the vast army of permanent public servants who serve them


is a complex one but it's based, I think there are two things that


civil servants don't like and that is a minister


who doesn't know his own mind and, secondly, a minister who does


know his own mind but won't listen to those who try to explain to him


the downstream consequences Now, that would suggest that just


because the Secretary of State says "do it",


it gets done. And that, of course,


is not always the case. You have to say, "This


is what I want and this is when I want it and I want


a progress report on the following frequencies," and then you have


to check up to make sure it happens. So it's not a job in which you can


wisely go to sleep. That is perhaps where the Yes,


Minister image of a civil servant paying only minor lip service


to their political masters may We'd have those discussions


and eventually I'd say, "Right, well, I've heard all you say


but I still want to do it". And then in the early days,


nothing would happen. And so after a couple of weeks,


I would say, "What's And I'd be told, "Well,


the officials want And I'd say, "No, no, no, no,


we've had the meeting and I've decided and when I've decided,


it's got to be done." Mrs Thatcher loved Yes,


Minister so much she appeared with the actors in a sketch,


but she was less lovely One of her ministers remembers


she walked in on a civil service forum to ask the public


what they made of a They brought in some people


and she went straight over, and they were elderly people


and she just knelt down by their chairs and said, "Now, tell


me, do you understand this form? Hoping, of course, that they would


denounce the form which, inevitably, they did,


because they were awful. And so she would summon civil


servants to hear the torrent However, Chris Huhne observed


in government first-hand one of the ways the civil


servants could fight back. The one that Whitehall


is particularly in favour And the doctrine of un-right time


says, "Oh, minister, that is an absolutely


brilliant thing to do, we're totally committed to it,


but is this absolutely the perfect moment at which one ought to launch


such a bold, ambitious Liam Fox entered the MoD at a time


when the state of the nation's finances meant he had


to be bold and tough. His civil servants were asked


to come in and justify some of their key projects and they got


quite a shock. I remember the first board


that we had and they obviously thought this was a charade of some


sort and we weren't really serious, I wanted to send a very clear


message out that we were serious about this and within a few


quarters, all our projects came back within time and within budget, or at


least what they said was in budget. But what is it like when you've


heard all the evidence and advice and decided, in the end,


not to take any of it? When you've got official


opinion saying to you, "This is what we should do,"


and you have to then say, "No, I'm not going to go with that,


I'm going to go with something else," that's


a difficult thing to do. But, you know, any Secretary


of State worth their salt must be prepared to do that


at some point in time. The civil servants clearly serve


Secretaries of State but equally clear is the state of that


relationship is far more than simply We're getting reports that the Prime


Minister and the leader of the and are heading to Birstall, the scene


of Jo Cox's murder yesterday, where they will appear together and make a


joint statement. We haven't yet got the time for that. When we do, we


will let you have a. The civil service... When I did political


science at University, it had at particular esprit de corps. It was


overwhelmingly male. It was posh public school Oxbridge, they dressed


in Pinsky suits, bowler hats, even meant it that has totally changed.


-- dressed in pinstriped suits. When I go there, some of them seem pretty


scruffy to me! Does it still have that esprit de corps that it used to


have in the 1960s and 1970s? Or has it gone? I think it has gone a bit


but we were talking earlier about the underreported role of MPs in


constituencies, the other unreported element is how ministers deal with


their civil servants because we don't see it and yet it is


absolutely fundamental, as that report suggested. I think in some


blazers, there is still a slight sense of entitlement. One of the


important dynamics is the senior officials know they can be there for


a long, long time. Cabinet ministers could be out within ten minutes and


I think that gives them a sense of, at times, in some cases, superiority


over the Cabinet minister, and the test of a Cabinet minister is how


they deal with that. Some are brilliant at it, some are useless at


it, and it is one of the bits we don't get to see but one of the


reasons why some people are reshuffled pretty quickly is because


they can't work this relationship. Is at the Cabinet minister or the


civil servant that is reshuffled? The Cabinet minister! Hence the name


of the permanent secretary. The vulnerable ones are the Cabinet


ministers, who are supposed to be all-powerful and they quite often


aren't. As Andy Burnham suggests, it is a brave Cabinet minister that


challenges the advice of senior officials. Sometimes they do it and


our right to do it, other times they do it and I want to do it. Sometimes


there is tension because the Prime Minister feels a minister has been


captured by his civil servants. I know that was the view of Gordon


Brown about Alistair Darling and the Treasury, captured by the Treasury,


I heard that a few times. So it is absolutely fundamental but we don't


see it in front of our eyes. Here is a test of the British civil service.


Your side wins the referendum. That's just an assumption, not a


forecast. We vote to leave. There is a challenge because I would suggest


that the civil service, certainly be of echelons, are overwhelmingly for


remain. -- the upper echelons. We have learned that they have Wall


gained various and arias in different departments for coping


with a leave vote. -- war gamed. But it is interesting because people on


the Leave site will be very alert to any hint of betrayal or disloyalty


on behalf of the government or the civil service, particularly jarring


what will be a very fraught negotiation with the rest of the EU,


in which various concessions will have to be made on both sides, so it


will be a difficult position. It will be logistically a massive


disentanglement of the UK from all the treaties, trade agreements, and


there is talk that they going to have to bring in specialists from


all over the place to deal with this because they're not equipped to come


visit, because they haven't had to before. Canadians? There could be


plenty more work for Canadians! To keep you up-to-date with some


breaking news, the Daily Mail is reporting that the Conservatives


will not contest Batley and Spen. We don't want to talk about


by-elections at the moment as a result of Jo Cox's death, and we


won't, but inevitably there will be a by-election at some stage and we


understand from the Daily Mail that the Conservatives will not contest


it. We haven't yet been able to corroborate that.


Now, digital campaigning and social media hasn't yet taken over


from more traditional means of reaching the voters.


You still need to tramp the streets or come on shows like this


if you really want to get your message home.


But things are clearly changing, and both sides in the EU referendum


campaign are using Facebook, YouTube and Twitter to try to mobilise


their own voters and reach out to new ones.


Tuning into social media this past month, there's been...


This is more of a comment than a question and it will be


Thank you very much for postponing your bedtime!


They're trying to make television social.


Boris's ITV appearance keeping Twitter busy,


Five seconds to stop others... WHISTLE ..with your future.


We have a dominatrix, where Europe is the dominatrix


and the Union Jack is on its knees and is being told what to do.


Ah, efforts to reach new voters must be in overdrive, then.


We'll find out what's going on because we're going to meet


the two women who run the biggest Twitter dataset in the UK.


Or at least that's what they tell me.


So we have created a little Twitter lab.


We want to find out how both the Leave and Remain campaigns


are using the internet to get their message


When we count those, we see that the number of hashtags


that are being tweeted out are 3% for Remain and 97% for Leave,


at the beginning of the campaign in August.


When we look at it now, we have around 25% to 35% Remain


The story is always, it's the ones most motivated,


the ones with most of an axe to grind, that act on Twitter.


That might explain some of the disparities.


So what's the nature of the debate like on Twitter?


So here's the big question - what percentage of people


who are on Twitter are talking about the referendum?


We reckon from our study that about 0.06% of those who are talking


on Twitter are actually talking about the European referendum,


so it's a really tiny amount of that motivated public.


But there's still tens of millions of people tweeting


Beyond the echo chamber of Twitter, though, researchers


from Think Tank Demos have found that social media has been


motivating large numbers to get out and vote.


During research we've done on the general election,


figures coming in the next few weeks, we've found that social media


is an incredibly important voter mobilisation tool.


It's probably convinced millions across the UK to actually vote,


whereas they otherwise wouldn't have.


And you think that will be reflected in the referendum?


I think that digital politics is only becoming more important.


This referendum campaign has also seen Facebook tighten its grip


As well as its tried and tested targeted ads that helped the Tories


win the last general election, there have been 38 million comments,


shares and likes globally during chat about the referendum,


in just 13 weeks, in which 30 million daily UK users have


discussed the economy, health and immigration the most.


In order to have success in digital advertising, you need both


The Remain side has within it the central strategist from the very


They also need money to do that and that's where


I don't think that the main impact of social media is really how


the central campaigns are doing it, I think the main impact


is in the grassroots ground swell of activity that we see


There is something in the antiestablishment message


of Brexit, there is something in the electricity and energy


which we can see Brexit throwing into this at a grassroots level,


which I think has to imply that they're getting more of a boost


So, how significant could social media be


Well, hot off the press - thank you - we've been handed


the latest YouGov poll, which suggests that one in five


swing voters use Twitter or Facebook as their main source of information,


But - and here's the catch - many of them don't trust


what they read online, preferring instead what their friends


or family have to say or, believe it or not,


And we're joined by Marcus Roberts from the polling firm YouGov.


Treat has confirmed the Conservatives will not put of a


candidate at the Batley Spen by-election when it comes after the


murder of Jo Cox MP yesterday. The Conservatives will not contest it.


We're also seeing reports from Paul Waugh of the huffing ton post. We


are expecting a recall of the Commons. We've not been able to


confirm that. Paul, a reliable reporter. That's what he's saying.


When we hear about it confirmed, we'll let you know too. We're joined


by Marcus Roberts from the polling service YouGov.


He's got experience of working on digital campaigns,


Would it be fair to say digital campaigns are an essential part of a


political campaign? You need them? Absolutely. Let's understand what


social media's good for con campaigns. Twitter is good for


rallying existing supporters. It is good tor he can echoing the elite


shameer of the SW 1 postcode. It is not a good tool for reaching out to


voters. What is, is Facebook. Whilst Facebook is still only trusted as a


major source of information by about 15% of voters, voters in are YouGov


surveys consistently tell us they trust in politics information from


friends and family another than any other source of information,


television or newspapers. The prize for Leave or Remain is to get their


supporters through Facebook, to tell their friends and family, this is


how I'm voting. It is not perceived as a social media influence, it is a


personal one which has power. Interesting on this evidence on


Facebook. More and more I see people are getting their news from


Facebook. It's not Facebook news. From other sources but they are


reading it on their Facebook areas. And their friends are sharing


stories. Have a look at this. ' You see that and so on. A number of


Labour politicians said to me in the aftermath of their defeat last year


instead of going on and on about the ground campaign, they had this


wonderful ground campaign they should have spent a lot more money


on Facebook. Sement Murphy says if he had his time again as Scottish


Labour Leader, he would have spent almost all his money on Facebook.


But that spending falls into two categories. Advertising, promoted


posts from the campaign and two, something we really don't know


about, targeted sharing. That's where you ask as a campaign an


existing supporter to press a butt to share a suppress I'vic link with


specific friends and family members that the campaign's targeted as


being more susceptible to your inflewence. On the Obama campaign in


2012, they believe about 600,000 voters used target sharing ability


to influence 500,000 voters across America ma. We don't know the scale


the leave and remain are sharing. But we'll see this was a major


factor in the spending of both campaigns. It changes the nature of


our campaigning in terms of finance forever in this country. Unlike the


United States and some other countries, you cannot buy political


advertising. One of the reasons American campaigns are so expensive.


Billions of pounds are spent on spot advertising. There's no regulation


of buying political advertising on social media. You can make video and


American-style TV commercials. You can. Won of the worries about the


forthcoming presidential election, Facebook and the people who own


Facebook appear to be pro-Hillary and will do what they can to promote


Hillary and do down Trump. Can they do anything? There was an argument


that theal rhythms were biased to the left. It is not Facebook


providing here is the news from Facebook. You go on to your Facebook


account and you've got certain news you follow. People, your friends


send you news as well. It's news from the BBC or the newspapers or


whatever. Yeah, it is interesting. I follow all of you on Twitter. Are


gripped by Twitter. I've been told this is marginal, as you confirm, in


terms of the wider political spectrum. It's all on Facebook. At


the last election, the Conservatives had some brilliant social media


strategists who had this completely in their minds. All that talk about


Labour winning a ground war and so on was completely surpassed by these


geniuses at Conservative headquarters targeted voters through


this Facebook mechanism. They'd been hired by the Remain group now who


are clearly trying to do the same. I imagine the outers are also on to


this. If you're right, it's of greater significance than landing of


a newspaper, the online stuff and all the rest of it, that this


passing of information through friends. What's important is it's


only as good as the message that you're selling. The problem the


Labour Party field organisers and regional staff and campaign staff


had last year was how good was the product they were really selling.


The problem Remain and Leave will be asking, is how good is the product


they're selling? Facebook, social media, ground campaigns can be great


and very well targeted and professionally executed. If the


message doesn't resonate, you'll always have a problem. Good to know


wherever the media is the message still matters.


So, it's been a week defined by increasingly hectic campaigning


ahead of next week's EU referendum and by tragedy,


Here's Giles with our regular round-up of the week in 60 seconds.


On Monday, a rainbow coalition of MPs turned out for a vigil


to remember the victims of the mass shooting at the Pulse gay


Labour ramped up the case for Remain in the EU referendum campaign


this week, with a number of Shadow Cabinet members delivering


speeches, despite one or two vocal opponents.


George Osborne warned on Wednesday that he'd have to slash


spending and increase taxes in the event of Brexit,


but 65 of his own MPs immediately responded,


saying they'd never support what they described


The Chancellor basically needs to calm down and, regrettably,


Philip Green did appear in front of a select committee to answer


He said he shouldn't have sold the company to Dominic Chappell


and vowed to sort out its pensions problem.


On Thursday afternoon, the EU referendum campaigns


were suspended following the news that MP Jo Cox had been


A minute's silence was held in memory of the Batley


So, campaigning has been suspended ahead of next week's EU referendum


But the Remain campaign has confirmed to the Daily Politics


that their campaign will resume tomorrow,


and continue through until next Thursday.


We've not been able to confirm when the Leave campaign


. But we've not been able to confirm that. It is a short break. There are


some thinking that perhaps it should be suspended through the weekend and


the Commons should come back. That doesn't look like it will happen?


The Commons might come back but not that long break in the campaign? No.


If you think about it, there are just a few days to go. It would have


been impossible to extend it however tragic the context of yesterday. So,


it is inevitable. It will still have an impact on the tone and people


will have to be very careful, the leading figures on both sides, how


they play that resuming of the campaigning as from tomorrow. So, I


think there will be an ongoing impact. If Parliament is recalled on


Monday, that also will have an impact on the campaign. They can't


really be campaigning that day? No, they'll all be back here. It will be


interesting to hear if that's confirmed. It will have an impact on


Monday. Getting close. Only two days after that. Both sides of the


campaign will feet the weight of Jo Cox's murder as they do return to


campaigning. They will be careful, I would think, of the tone? Yes. I


think it would be wrong to assume even in the absence of Jo Cox's


murder the tone would deteriorate further and the atmosphere become


more February rile. I was talking to a senior campaign strategist who


said in the final week of the campaign what both sides need to do


is produce a positive, optimistic message. That tends to be the


pattern in campaigns. It's easier, I think, for the Brexit side, Steve


May disagree, to come up with an optimistic reason to vote Leave than


the Remain side to come up. I disagree with that. I knew you


would. We don't know yet. We won't go into it. Too early yet. But we


don't know yet what the impact of this will be on the referendum. That


is for days to come. I thank you both for being with me on this day.


I think all of our guests. The one o'clock news is starting


over on BBC One now. And I'll be back on Sunday


with the Sunday Politics,


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