17/06/2016 Daily Politics


17/06/2016

Andrew Neil is at Westminster with reflections on the life of MP Jo Cox and reaction to her murder.


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There's a sombre mood here at Westminster,

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as politicians try to come to terms with the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox.

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Tributes have been paid by politicians from all sides

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and from around the world to the campaigning MP,

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who was just at the start of her promising political career.

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We'll be speaking to a former friend and colleague.

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Her murder has underlined the risks faced by our elected representatives

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as they try to remain accessible and meet with their constituents.

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Her death overshadowed last night's by-election in Tooting,

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which saw Labour hold the seat and double its majority.

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We'll be talking about the sometimes uneasy relationship

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between ministers and civil servants.

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And with us for the whole of the programme today

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are the journalists Steve Richards and Toby Young.

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Westminster and the country are in a state of shock this morning

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following the murder of the Labour MP Jo Cox in her West Yorkshire

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The 41-year-old, who was only elected to the Commons at last

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year's general election, was attacked as she left her

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constituency surgery in the village of Birstall

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The mother-of-two came to politics following a career at Oxfam,

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and had made a name for herself campaigning for the government

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to accept more child refugees from Syria.

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The day before the murder, she had been campaigning

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for the Remain campaign on a flotilla on the Thames.

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-- watching her husband and children join a flotilla on the Thames.

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She is the only woman to have been murdered while serving as an MP,

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and the first MP since Ian Gow was killed by the IRA in 1990.

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Campaigning ahead of next week's EU referendum has been suspended

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and politicians from all sides have paid tribute.

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Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn praised her as a much-loved collague,

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whle the Prime Minister described her as a committed and caring MP.

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Yesterday a vigil was held outside Parliament, while hundreds of people

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filled a church in Birstall for a service of remembrance.

:02:50.:02:54.

A 52-year-old man, named locally as Tommy Mair, has been arrested.

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He was reported by some to have shouted "put Britain first",

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though other witnesses have challenged that.

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Details are emerging indicating past links

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to far-right groups, though these have still

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His family say he never talked politics with them.

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Well, a short while ago, I spoke to our correspondent

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I asked her about the response today of the local people. Floral tributes

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have been made here all morning, look at them, and they will be

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continued to be made here throughout the dated rock people coming here

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from all backgrounds, all faiths. One card here, Andrew, simply says,

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"To a Yorkshire Rose". Jo Cox was born and bred here in West Yorkshire

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and in this part of the world, that means a lot. Yes, she did campaign

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on the major international issues but people here will tell you that

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no issue was too small. They'll tell you that she was involved with a

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campaign for a pedestrian crossing, she was supporting a family who had

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an autistic child, and they'll tell you that they would stop and talk to

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her in the street and talk about her personal or private problems. One

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woman said, "We voted for her, we gave her voice, and now it has been

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silenced". And a local man has been arrested and is in custody. What do

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we know about him? He's a 52-year-old man. He has been named

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locally as Tommy Mair but that hasn't been confirmed by West

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Yorkshire Police. We're learning a bit more about him. Humidity in the

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village of Birstall for about 30 years. He lived alone. He did local

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jobs for the local people. There are ports of family members saying that

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he had mental health issues, that they were dealt with, again

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something that has not been confirmed by West Yorkshire Police.

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But here on the ground, the investigation is still very much

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continuing this morning. Officers have been carrying out a fingertip

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search outside the library where Joe Cox was stamped and shot yesterday.

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This huge police cordoned around the heart of Birstall, the Market

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Square, hasn't moved overnight, and that's something that is very

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difficult for people... It is a reminder of what happened here

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yesterday, it's something they are having to expend their children as

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they were taking them to school this morning, the very school that was on

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lockdown yesterday because the police weren't entirely sure what

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was going on at that stage. So difficult to come to terms with this

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in their daily lives and, of course, the loss of their local MP, who was

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much loved it. That is the latest from Birstall, the scene of the

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crime. We had no indication yet from the police as to when they will make

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another formal statement. So far, they only made a brief one last

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night which announced the sad death of the MP from the wounds in the

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attack. The gave no indication as to when the police are going to say any

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more. Well, as we said, tributes to Jo Cox

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have been made by politicians of all parties here and her death has also

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made a big impact around the world. We're expecting to hear from the

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Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn in the next hour. This has been a major

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international story. Firstly, a statement

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from Hillary Clinton: Australian Prime Minister Malcolm

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Turnbull, posted a tweet saying... Canadian Prime Minister

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Justin Trudeau tweeted... Well, that maiden speech you heard

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referred to there was widely Many honourable and right honourable

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members will lay claim, I'm sure, to their constituencies

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being constituencies of two halves Batley and Spen is very much that

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kind of constituency. And it's a joy to represent such

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a diverse community. Batley and Spen is a gathering

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of typically independent, no-nonsense proud Yorkshire

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towns and villages. Our communities have been deeply

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enhanced by immigration, be it Irish Catholics

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across the constituency or Muslims from Indian Gujarat or from

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Pakistan, principally from Kashmir. And whilst we celebrate our

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diversity, the thing that surprises me time and time again

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as I travel around the constituency is that we are far more united

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and have far more in common My constituency is also

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home to Fox's Biscuits and Lion Confectionery,

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so I'm sure you will not think it an indulgence, Mr Speaker,

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if I describe Batley and Spen as a constituency with an industrial

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heart wrapped in a very rich and pleasant Yorkshire landscape,

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geographical, The spirit of nonconformity

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is as prevalent now in my part of West Yorkshire

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as it was in the time of my two immediate predecessors,

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Mike Wood and Elizabeth Peacock. They were both known

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for their own brand of independent, nonconformist service,

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albeit in very different ways. And I intend to maintain that

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established tradition Jo Cox making her maiden speech

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in the Commons last year. She was speaking about the

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constituency of which she was so proud and where she had been brought

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up. Well, to talk about Jo Cox's life

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and her contribution to public life, we're joined by her friend and

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colleague the Labour MP Mary Creagh. Mary Creagh, Joe Cox was a

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politician strong principles, strong views on a number of matters, but I

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always got the impression she was one of the least triable politicians

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in the House of commons. Is that right? That certainly is. Jo had

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only been in Parliament for 18 short months but in that time, she was

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keen to learn, she sought advice, she took a device, and she was

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absolutely determined to work across parties for the causes that she

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passionately believed in. And she worked with Andrew Mitchell and

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other Conservative colleagues to set up the cross-party group on Syria.

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She was instrumental in forcing the government to change its policy and

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getting them to accent the 3000 unaccompanied Syrian asylum seeking

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children. -- to accept. And she was a force of nature and if there were

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any obstacles in her path, she would not go around them, she would go

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straight through them. And at a time when it is a common criticism that

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so many of our politicians are career politicians, that they've

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never done anything else but come out of university and go straight

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into politics, she had a hinterland, didn't she? She had done other

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things, particularly in the field of development aid, with NGOs, and what

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she had done in formed her when she became a politician. That's right.

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Jo had a long and distinguished career in the humanitarian field and

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she'd worked for Oxfam and Save the Children, NSPCC, so she had a huge

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amount of experience to call an and she had campaigned globally and she

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brought all of that wisdom, that insight back-to-back league, back to

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the area where she was born and brought up. -- back to Batley. To

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fight on behalf of the people she had grown up with and who loved so

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dearly. She was noted for her compassion, particularly on these

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issues, and her decency, but you was also - and this isn't always used of

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politicians, I would suggest that Mark seen as just normal. She

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certainly was. She was a mother and we would sometimes chat about our

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various childcare issues. She would bring her two children into

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Parliament sometimes to have tea. She lived on a houseboat, she cycled

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in and out of Parliament and I remember one night trying to catch

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up with this woman who was going quite a lot faster with me and I

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drew level with her at the traffic lights and looked across and we both

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just burst out laughing and I said, "I'm afraid you're going a bit too

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fast for me, Jo, you'd better crack on without me". So she lived every

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day to the full. She had an energy, and exuberance and the weight that

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made every room she walked into light up and it is beyond words that

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that surely and that life and that brilliance has been snuffed out and

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taken so cruelly. Mary Creagh, thank you for joining us and sharing those

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thoughts on Jo Cox to what are your thoughts? There are many. There is

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sadness about what has happened. What is interesting about the

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coverage since is that there has been the focus on this dedicated MP

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the consideration seek -- in the constituency, running a surgery for

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local constituents, and normally it is that bit of the MP's world which

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gets very little coverage at all. There is this assumption that they

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are in the so-called Westminster bubble all the time. Actually, we

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journalists are in it all the time. I've always thought that we are more

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of a bubble than MPs because they have to go back to people in places

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like Birstall. The idea that they are out of touch is one of the great

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dangerous myths of British politics and there is a tendency and the

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default position of whatever story comes up to blame politicians, and

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to give a ten second example, when that Panama scandal about tax came

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up, I was asked by somebody on a comment desk, "Will you do a piece

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saying MPs should immediately make all their tax returns transparent

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and publicly available er" as if they were somehow culpable. It is a

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default position that they are bunch of crooks and I don't know how we've

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got to that position. It is a genuine mystery to me to talk we let

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them so it must be a kind of self-loathing that we let them and

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then get into this default position that they are all a bunch of crooks

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and the focus today is entirely different and freakishly unusual.

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Will this lead to us revaluing, maybe even valuing more, the work of

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politicians, or is it just an aberration in the sadness of Jo

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Cox's murder, and it will default back to the previous position? You

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always hope when something tragic like this happens that something of

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value will come out of it and one hope is that people will remember

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just what a good-hearted and hard-working constituency MP Jo Cox

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was the next time they feel inclined to respond in this knee jerk,

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hostile way to some sin of the political class. But will things

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change? One thing I hope doesn't change is that MPs become much more

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nervous about their security and there is less contact between the

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MPs and their constituents. We'll talk about that in a minute. Jo Cox

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was an interesting example of the changing nature of MPs on both sides

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of the Commons. If you look first at the 2010 but then the 2015 intake,

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there were different voices on both sides of the House, not

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traditionally what you would normally expect. We had been talking

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all along about politics being nothing but a career, you go to

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university, usually Oxbridge, then you are straight into the House, but

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she is an example of a number of a new generation of MPs that don't fit

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that stereotype, was in cheek was Bob -- wasn't she?

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There's another thing unreported. There are others on both sides, a

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big cultural shift and they feel in a way more accountable to their

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constituents, I think, to say the leaders of the their parties. That's

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been on both sides absolutely. And that's another important shift. I

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think probably we political journalists need to get out more and

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see what their other lives are like. What I'm not saying, is this

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collective outpouring of genuine grief and sadness across the

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political spectrum means somehow politics can be without conflict and

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battles. The whole essence of politics, it's a noble vocation. You

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decide disputes through word and debate and not force. People who say

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it should be bland now and everyone should be in agreement... It's not

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our style. Not what politics is about. But, if we can he is swap

:16:29.:16:36.

this anti-politics asimplings that when anything happens it is the

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fault of those we elect, that will be healthy. She was an independent

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Labour MP. Her own woman. There are a number of people on both sides of

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the House. A number of people who have only recently got into the

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House, despite you thinking they're on the greasy pole on their way up,

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you do that by being loyal and don't rock the boat. I can think of a

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number of MPs on both sides that don't do that. They say what they

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think and they vote the way they want. That was true of the 2010

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intake and also true of the 2015 intake. They are much more

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rebellious, much less likely to tow the party line. More

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independent-minded. You can see the authority of party leaders and whips

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declining and the authority the Speaker increasing in the last

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Parliament and this Parliament. If you believe in politics and MPs are

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there to represent the views of their constituents and not just tow

:17:35.:17:41.

the party line, that's a good thing. It's remarkable how these things

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come and hit us. You don't see any of this going and suddenly, we look

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at trends, look at news events coming up, who's up, who's down and

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something happens and it changes everything. Exactly. We often on

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this programme and others follow patterns. Work out what happens

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next. Something tragically happening like this, the mood has completely

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changed. There's no campaigning tomorrow, I was supposed to a

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one-on-one interview with Iain Duncan Smith. My fourth, but that's

:18:22.:18:28.

been changed. Something simple mattic of things which have changed,

:18:29.:18:36.

the by-election when it takes place in Jo Cox's constituency shouldn't

:18:37.:18:40.

be contested by another party. It should be a Labour seat. I've seen

:18:41.:18:45.

suggestions of that. You can't stop people standing in a by-election,

:18:46.:18:49.

independent candidates. Perhaps the main parties will decide not to

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contest it. Now, this attack on an MP as she

:18:52.:18:52.

held a constituency surgery has raised questions over the safety

:18:53.:18:56.

of our elected representatives Like most MPs, Jo Cox held

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a well-publicised, regular surgery for her constituents to come

:18:59.:19:05.

to to talk about their problems. The House of Commons yesterday

:19:06.:19:12.

said it has re-issued security advice to MPs,

:19:13.:19:16.

and details of the kind of threats made to them on a regular

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basis have been emerging. So, just what is the

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extent of the problem? Well, psychiatrists conducted

:19:23.:19:29.

a sobering study The Home Office report

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found that 80% of MPs had been victims of intrusive

:19:32.:19:40.

or aggressive behaviour. One in five said they had been

:19:41.:19:46.

subject to attack including one who reported being

:19:47.:19:49.

repeatedly punched in the face and A further 41% said they had received

:19:50.:19:55.

threats of harm against them. One told the researchers "There were

:19:56.:20:02.

numerous reports of death threats, both in person and by mail, and bomb

:20:03.:20:06.

threats." A fifth of MPs reported threats of

:20:07.:20:11.

property damage, including petrol poured through the

:20:12.:20:14.

letterbox, tyres slashed and paint stripper

:20:15.:20:18.

poured over their vehicles. And, worryingly, almost two in five

:20:19.:20:23.

MPs report being stalked, with half of those saying it had

:20:24.:20:28.

gone on for more than a year. The psychiatrists found that younger

:20:29.:20:33.

women were particularly targeted. Earlier today, the Labour MP

:20:34.:20:38.

Stephen Timms, who was previously attacked at his surgery,

:20:39.:20:42.

spoke about how security Well, after I was attacked,

:20:43.:20:46.

six years ago now, the police spoke to,

:20:47.:20:52.

I think, every MP about the arrangements

:20:53.:20:55.

in their constituency surgeries, That perhaps should happen

:20:56.:20:57.

again and there may be But what none of us would want

:20:58.:21:03.

is a big change in the culture of our country, which would make it

:21:04.:21:12.

much harder for people to get We're joined now from Croydon by

:21:13.:21:18.

the Conservative MP Gavin Barwell. Parliament is a fortress surrounded

:21:19.:21:36.

by armed police. It has concrete bunkers and all the rest of it. But

:21:37.:21:41.

the constituencies is where they could be much more vulnerable. We're

:21:42.:21:46.

joined from Croydon by the Conservative MP Gavin Barwell. He

:21:47.:21:50.

was threatened in his constituency surgery in the last month. You were

:21:51.:21:56.

met with an aggressive constituent earlier this month. Talk us through

:21:57.:22:01.

what happened to you? Yes, Andrew, someone had booked to come and see

:22:02.:22:06.

me at my surgery. It very rapidly became apparent the individual was

:22:07.:22:10.

very disturbed. We asked him to leave. He refused to do so. The

:22:11.:22:17.

police were called. He then became very agitated, started kicking the

:22:18.:22:20.

furniture around. Threatened to attack me and kill me. At that

:22:21.:22:25.

point, the police arrived and he was arrested and subsequently discovered

:22:26.:22:31.

to have a knife on him. What's your reaction to this Home Office report,

:22:32.:22:37.

this survey? I may be wrong but I don't remember it getting much

:22:38.:22:42.

publicity at the time. It seems now very pertinent and important. It

:22:43.:22:48.

seems we have a serious problem here which, by and large, has been

:22:49.:22:52.

ignored. Is that fair? It is difficult to strike the right

:22:53.:22:56.

proportion. I wasn't aware of that report. A month ago, eyed aide have

:22:57.:23:05.

said in six years of being an MP I wouldn't feel threatened. The

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majority of people I deal with are kind and generous. There are often

:23:09.:23:12.

people who have particular health problems that can pose a threat. We

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have to find a way of making sure MPs think about their security and

:23:16.:23:19.

the security of their staff and families but don't stop doing our

:23:20.:23:24.

job to go out, meet people, go to community events. The job can never

:23:25.:23:28.

be made 100% safe. This is a balance here. It is difficult. I remember as

:23:29.:23:32.

a kid my parents taking me to Downing Street. You could just walk

:23:33.:23:37.

in. You could walk up the street and stand outside the door. There was a

:23:38.:23:42.

policeman there. That was it. Today, there are armed guards, all swords

:23:43.:23:48.

of -- sorts of security measures. You can't just walk in. I could

:23:49.:23:52.

remember party conferences where you could walk in and out. No grate

:23:53.:23:57.

security. Today, there's a ring of steel around the conference of which

:23:58.:24:02.

ever party's in Government. We still have this ability to approach our

:24:03.:24:07.

MPs in constituencies. We can walk in off the street in many areas and

:24:08.:24:13.

speak to them. That would now seem potentially to be dangerous. That

:24:14.:24:19.

could now go, couldn't it? I hope it won't. I think, obviously you were

:24:20.:24:23.

right to say party of the week we work in one of the most secure

:24:24.:24:26.

locations in the country. There are things you can do at your

:24:27.:24:29.

constituency office to increase security. But, even if you do that,

:24:30.:24:34.

I spend a huge amount of my time knocking on people's doors or

:24:35.:24:38.

attending community events. You can't make those locations

:24:39.:24:42.

completely secure. I represent one of the most diverse parts of the

:24:43.:24:46.

country. I regularly meet people from other parts of the world. They

:24:47.:24:51.

are amazed when I knock on their door, bump into them on the street.

:24:52.:24:56.

They come from places where politicians are surrounded by

:24:57.:24:59.

security. You can't go up and shake their hand. Talk to them. That's

:25:00.:25:04.

pricks. It is one of the reasons why when you ask people what they think

:25:05.:25:12.

of lair local MP they have a much higher regard than politicians.

:25:13.:25:16.

Parliament used to be a male monopoly. It's not now. There are a

:25:17.:25:25.

growing number of female MPs. A lot, like Jo Cox, pretty young women

:25:26.:25:30.

beginning their political careers. They seem to be a particularly

:25:31.:25:36.

target in terms of being physically stalked. They seem, most

:25:37.:25:41.

disgustingly of all, in a way, targets on social media? Yes. I

:25:42.:25:45.

think there is a lot of evidence of that. We certainly need to look at

:25:46.:25:51.

what more we can do to address those kinds of issues. Any MP will tell

:25:52.:25:56.

you there is a massive contrast how you get treated when you meet people

:25:57.:26:01.

face-to-face and what you get anonymously on social media. It is

:26:02.:26:04.

really striking. Any MP will say that. You are right to say some

:26:05.:26:10.

female colleagues get particularly bad treatment in that regard. Thank

:26:11.:26:16.

you for joining us. Safety in your constituency and surgeries. Steve, I

:26:17.:26:23.

saw you nodding there when I went through the Downing Street days and

:26:24.:26:27.

party conferences. Clearly MPs are aware of this, striking the balance,

:26:28.:26:34.

there must be a danger even our MPs, when they're in their

:26:35.:26:38.

constituencies, are going to be more can cocooned than they have been? I

:26:39.:26:44.

hope not. I nodded because I had the same experience. You could walk into

:26:45.:26:49.

Downing Street and stand outside Number Ten. Policeman would move a

:26:50.:26:55.

bit. Prime Minister's in there. It felt exciting and accessible. This

:26:56.:27:00.

is one of the problems. The myth they're Alcock cooned. One of the

:27:01.:27:04.

reasons they are seen as that is because of security at key political

:27:05.:27:08.

moments, they are. You can't walk into Downing Street now. The House

:27:09.:27:13.

of Commons is a fortress. Party conferences, it is like trying to

:27:14.:27:17.

get in to, well, it is a security fortress. I think, actually, if

:27:18.:27:24.

won't happen because it will be frankly impossible to police on the

:27:25.:27:29.

scale required. When MPs are wandering around their local

:27:30.:27:32.

constituencies. It can't happen. That level of connect is so

:27:33.:27:37.

fundamental, I don't think it can. But obviously people will be

:27:38.:27:43.

exploring this. My assumption is it would be healthy if that were not to

:27:44.:27:47.

happen. Yet we've seen it in the United States. They don't have quite

:27:48.:27:54.

the same constituency relationship. Centres have security -- senators

:27:55.:27:59.

have security. The chairman of the Federal Reserve has and so on. It's

:28:00.:28:04.

become a feature of the modern world? Yes, bus I think that

:28:05.:28:09.

politicians are at greater risk in the United States than they are

:28:10.:28:13.

here. One of the reasons, what happened to Jo Cox yesterday was so

:28:14.:28:17.

deeply shocking because that kind of thing happens to rarely in Britain.

:28:18.:28:22.

And like Steve, I really hope that this doesn't mean that we move to a

:28:23.:28:27.

much more cocooned system in which politicians don't have that direct

:28:28.:28:30.

contact with ordinary people. We shall see. Bernard Jenkins is

:28:31.:28:35.

telling us because of threats to him, he has to hold his

:28:36.:28:39.

constituency, he has somebody in the room. It is clear he has somebody in

:28:40.:28:44.

the room that can help to look after him should it go wrong. One of the

:28:45.:28:48.

ironies, a lot of these backbenchers are hard working but not hugely

:28:49.:28:53.

powerful figures actually are. There is an awerings they could change the

:28:54.:28:57.

world with a flick of their wrists that's not the case. We've just

:28:58.:29:03.

heard that the Prime Minister is on his way to Jo Cox's constituency in

:29:04.:29:08.

West Yorkshire and will be arriving shortly.

:29:09.:29:11.

Now, yesterday saw Labour hold the seat of Tooting in South London.

:29:12.:29:14.

The vote was triggered by Sadiq Khan's election as London Mayor

:29:15.:29:20.

and, despite being a Conservative target seat, junior doctor

:29:21.:29:26.

Rosena Allin-Khan more than doubled Labour's majority,

:29:27.:29:32.

But there was little applause at the count,

:29:33.:29:39.

and she devoted her speech to Jo Cox.

:29:40.:29:43.

And I do hereby declare that Allin-Khan, Rosena

:29:44.:29:46.

is duly elected for the Tooting constituency.

:29:47.:29:50.

First of all, I would like to give my profound

:29:51.:29:58.

thanks to the people of Tooting for electing me as their MP.

:29:59.:30:02.

But my thoughts and prayers are with Jo's husband

:30:03.:30:05.

She was a proud and passionate campaigner, who will be

:30:06.:30:11.

Jo's death reminds us that our democracy is precious but fragile.

:30:12.:30:19.

Thousands of people voted today and we are all here in recognition

:30:20.:30:26.

And if the terrible events in West Yorkshire hadn't happened yesterday,

:30:27.:30:41.

the winner of the Tooting by-election would have become the

:30:42.:30:48.

100th female Labour MP. Tooting... We were told that the demographics

:30:49.:30:56.

were changing, to sympathise, it was becoming posher and therefore

:30:57.:30:58.

perhaps more Tory. No sign of that in this by-election. It is

:30:59.:31:02.

interesting and it is the second one. When Sadiq Khan first won the

:31:03.:31:09.

moel thing, there was a lot of talk amongst those hoping that Jeremy

:31:10.:31:13.

Corbyn would fall quickly. -- the mayoral thing. It happened just

:31:14.:31:21.

before Christmas... Was at an old, the by-election? Labour won that

:31:22.:31:26.

comfortably. So as far as you can extrapolate much from by-elections,

:31:27.:31:34.

the again cocooned media consumption that Jeremy Corbyn, everything he

:31:35.:31:37.

touches will turn to disaster, is simply not the case. However, of

:31:38.:31:45.

course, at this point in the electoral cycle, you would assume

:31:46.:31:50.

that the party would hold it so that is a qualification. But for those

:31:51.:31:56.

who say that the party is imploding under Corbyn, here is more proof

:31:57.:32:00.

that this is not the case. It confirms a more nuanced picture of

:32:01.:32:04.

the impact of Jeremy Corbyn on Labour's vote, which is that it is

:32:05.:32:07.

not going to have a negative impact in London, particularly in central

:32:08.:32:11.

London. Where Labour didn't fare particularly well in the local

:32:12.:32:14.

elections were areas where it is going to need to do better to win a

:32:15.:32:18.

majority in 2020. It certainly didn't produce any revival of

:32:19.:32:22.

Labour's vote in Scotland, it didn't help much in Wales, and help in the

:32:23.:32:26.

north or the Midlands and so I think we know that Corbyn isn't toxic in

:32:27.:32:32.

London but he is a bit toxic in a lot of areas outside London. It

:32:33.:32:35.

underlines Labour's strength in London. In the general election, bad

:32:36.:32:42.

for Labour but in London, Labour did pretty well. And in 2010. Which way,

:32:43.:32:54.

of course, underlines how unusual it was for Boris Johnson to win as a

:32:55.:32:58.

Tory in a Labour city to talk but this new Labour MP is a junior

:32:59.:33:05.

doctor and Labour has now, like Jo Cox, another strong, intelligent,

:33:06.:33:09.

professional female MP. Yes, and indeed, to counter some of those who

:33:10.:33:13.

were saying Labour could lose the seat, people who knew her Toby she

:33:14.:33:16.

was a really impressive candidate and that she would do well. -- told

:33:17.:33:23.

me. There is quite a high quality of MP coming in from these various

:33:24.:33:30.

recent intakes and was interesting watching the tributes to Jo Cox on

:33:31.:33:36.

Newsnight last night. You saw four young Labour MPs talking about her

:33:37.:33:41.

in an impressive and very engaging way and there are some quite dynamic

:33:42.:33:44.

figures coming into the House of commons. The constant complaint that

:33:45.:33:48.

good people don't go into politics any more and that they are all

:33:49.:33:55.

useless, but actually the recent intakes, as we were indicating

:33:56.:33:57.

earlier, have been rather impressive. One cause for optimism

:33:58.:34:02.

about British politics is that in spite of the public seemingly

:34:03.:34:06.

becoming much more jaundiced about politicians, particularly in the

:34:07.:34:09.

wake of the expenses scandal, it hasn't stopped good people from

:34:10.:34:14.

wanting to become MPs. It hasn't deterred them. You might have

:34:15.:34:15.

thought it would have done. Now, it's traditionally said civil

:34:16.:34:17.

servants advise, ministers decide. But is the relationship between the

:34:18.:34:19.

two quite that straightforward? Here's Giles Dilnot

:34:20.:34:22.

with his latest guide Thanks to British cinema and the TV

:34:23.:34:23.

series Yes, Minister, we've got a rather ingrained sense

:34:24.:34:38.

of the British civil service, as elitist, grey suited,

:34:39.:34:41.

bowler hatted snobs who frustrate government ministers and keep

:34:42.:34:44.

power to themselves. But has Sir Humphrey finally left

:34:45.:34:48.

Whitehall, and what do former Secretaries of State make

:34:49.:34:51.

of who replaced him? That is the thing that is most

:34:52.:34:58.

missed in the Sir Humphrey portrayal, which is that I don't

:34:59.:35:01.

believe that civil servants are engaging in guerilla warfare

:35:02.:35:05.

or tactics to try and stop the Secretary of State doing

:35:06.:35:08.

things, if Secretaries of State give an indication

:35:09.:35:10.

of what they want to achieve. The whole of the Civil Service

:35:11.:35:15.

machine is predicated on the basis that it reports to a senior minister

:35:16.:35:18.

and the senior minister will make decisions,

:35:19.:35:22.

and the civil servants are very uncomfortable indeed

:35:23.:35:25.

if they have to make If you frighten them,

:35:26.:35:29.

if you never smile at them, Well, you know what I mean,

:35:30.:35:35.

human conversation, they don't believe you when you suddenly say,

:35:36.:35:44.

"Tell me if I'm wrong". The exact relationship

:35:45.:35:49.

between politicians, who we vote in and out of office,

:35:50.:35:51.

and the vast army of permanent public servants who serve them

:35:52.:35:54.

is a complex one but it's based, I think there are two things that

:35:55.:35:59.

civil servants don't like and that is a minister

:36:00.:36:06.

who doesn't know his own mind and, secondly, a minister who does

:36:07.:36:11.

know his own mind but won't listen to those who try to explain to him

:36:12.:36:17.

the downstream consequences Now, that would suggest that just

:36:18.:36:20.

because the Secretary of State says "do it",

:36:21.:36:24.

it gets done. And that, of course,

:36:25.:36:28.

is not always the case. You have to say, "This

:36:29.:36:32.

is what I want and this is when I want it and I want

:36:33.:36:34.

a progress report on the following frequencies," and then you have

:36:35.:36:38.

to check up to make sure it happens. So it's not a job in which you can

:36:39.:36:43.

wisely go to sleep. That is perhaps where the Yes,

:36:44.:36:47.

Minister image of a civil servant paying only minor lip service

:36:48.:36:50.

to their political masters may We'd have those discussions

:36:51.:36:54.

and eventually I'd say, "Right, well, I've heard all you say

:36:55.:36:59.

but I still want to do it". And then in the early days,

:37:00.:37:02.

nothing would happen. And so after a couple of weeks,

:37:03.:37:05.

I would say, "What's And I'd be told, "Well,

:37:06.:37:11.

the officials want And I'd say, "No, no, no, no,

:37:12.:37:16.

we've had the meeting and I've decided and when I've decided,

:37:17.:37:21.

it's got to be done." Mrs Thatcher loved Yes,

:37:22.:37:27.

Minister so much she appeared with the actors in a sketch,

:37:28.:37:30.

but she was less lovely One of her ministers remembers

:37:31.:37:34.

she walked in on a civil service forum to ask the public

:37:35.:37:44.

what they made of a They brought in some people

:37:45.:37:46.

and she went straight over, and they were elderly people

:37:47.:37:52.

and she just knelt down by their chairs and said, "Now, tell

:37:53.:37:54.

me, do you understand this form? Hoping, of course, that they would

:37:55.:38:00.

denounce the form which, inevitably, they did,

:38:01.:38:06.

because they were awful. And so she would summon civil

:38:07.:38:09.

servants to hear the torrent However, Chris Huhne observed

:38:10.:38:12.

in government first-hand one of the ways the civil

:38:13.:38:18.

servants could fight back. The one that Whitehall

:38:19.:38:23.

is particularly in favour And the doctrine of un-right time

:38:24.:38:25.

says, "Oh, minister, that is an absolutely

:38:26.:38:30.

brilliant thing to do, we're totally committed to it,

:38:31.:38:31.

but is this absolutely the perfect moment at which one ought to launch

:38:32.:38:34.

such a bold, ambitious Liam Fox entered the MoD at a time

:38:35.:38:38.

when the state of the nation's finances meant he had

:38:39.:38:44.

to be bold and tough. His civil servants were asked

:38:45.:38:48.

to come in and justify some of their key projects and they got

:38:49.:38:50.

quite a shock. I remember the first board

:38:51.:38:54.

that we had and they obviously thought this was a charade of some

:38:55.:38:58.

sort and we weren't really serious, I wanted to send a very clear

:38:59.:39:02.

message out that we were serious about this and within a few

:39:03.:39:07.

quarters, all our projects came back within time and within budget, or at

:39:08.:39:10.

least what they said was in budget. But what is it like when you've

:39:11.:39:15.

heard all the evidence and advice and decided, in the end,

:39:16.:39:18.

not to take any of it? When you've got official

:39:19.:39:23.

opinion saying to you, "This is what we should do,"

:39:24.:39:25.

and you have to then say, "No, I'm not going to go with that,

:39:26.:39:28.

I'm going to go with something else," that's

:39:29.:39:31.

a difficult thing to do. But, you know, any Secretary

:39:32.:39:33.

of State worth their salt must be prepared to do that

:39:34.:39:36.

at some point in time. The civil servants clearly serve

:39:37.:39:38.

Secretaries of State but equally clear is the state of that

:39:39.:39:42.

relationship is far more than simply We're getting reports that the Prime

:39:43.:40:03.

Minister and the leader of the and are heading to Birstall, the scene

:40:04.:40:10.

of Jo Cox's murder yesterday, where they will appear together and make a

:40:11.:40:14.

joint statement. We haven't yet got the time for that. When we do, we

:40:15.:40:20.

will let you have a. The civil service... When I did political

:40:21.:40:27.

science at University, it had at particular esprit de corps. It was

:40:28.:40:31.

overwhelmingly male. It was posh public school Oxbridge, they dressed

:40:32.:40:38.

in Pinsky suits, bowler hats, even meant it that has totally changed.

:40:39.:40:44.

-- dressed in pinstriped suits. When I go there, some of them seem pretty

:40:45.:40:47.

scruffy to me! Does it still have that esprit de corps that it used to

:40:48.:40:52.

have in the 1960s and 1970s? Or has it gone? I think it has gone a bit

:40:53.:40:57.

but we were talking earlier about the underreported role of MPs in

:40:58.:41:01.

constituencies, the other unreported element is how ministers deal with

:41:02.:41:04.

their civil servants because we don't see it and yet it is

:41:05.:41:07.

absolutely fundamental, as that report suggested. I think in some

:41:08.:41:13.

blazers, there is still a slight sense of entitlement. One of the

:41:14.:41:17.

important dynamics is the senior officials know they can be there for

:41:18.:41:23.

a long, long time. Cabinet ministers could be out within ten minutes and

:41:24.:41:28.

I think that gives them a sense of, at times, in some cases, superiority

:41:29.:41:33.

over the Cabinet minister, and the test of a Cabinet minister is how

:41:34.:41:36.

they deal with that. Some are brilliant at it, some are useless at

:41:37.:41:39.

it, and it is one of the bits we don't get to see but one of the

:41:40.:41:42.

reasons why some people are reshuffled pretty quickly is because

:41:43.:41:46.

they can't work this relationship. Is at the Cabinet minister or the

:41:47.:41:50.

civil servant that is reshuffled? The Cabinet minister! Hence the name

:41:51.:41:56.

of the permanent secretary. The vulnerable ones are the Cabinet

:41:57.:41:59.

ministers, who are supposed to be all-powerful and they quite often

:42:00.:42:02.

aren't. As Andy Burnham suggests, it is a brave Cabinet minister that

:42:03.:42:05.

challenges the advice of senior officials. Sometimes they do it and

:42:06.:42:09.

our right to do it, other times they do it and I want to do it. Sometimes

:42:10.:42:13.

there is tension because the Prime Minister feels a minister has been

:42:14.:42:17.

captured by his civil servants. I know that was the view of Gordon

:42:18.:42:22.

Brown about Alistair Darling and the Treasury, captured by the Treasury,

:42:23.:42:27.

I heard that a few times. So it is absolutely fundamental but we don't

:42:28.:42:31.

see it in front of our eyes. Here is a test of the British civil service.

:42:32.:42:36.

Your side wins the referendum. That's just an assumption, not a

:42:37.:42:41.

forecast. We vote to leave. There is a challenge because I would suggest

:42:42.:42:45.

that the civil service, certainly be of echelons, are overwhelmingly for

:42:46.:42:55.

remain. -- the upper echelons. We have learned that they have Wall

:42:56.:42:58.

gained various and arias in different departments for coping

:42:59.:43:06.

with a leave vote. -- war gamed. But it is interesting because people on

:43:07.:43:12.

the Leave site will be very alert to any hint of betrayal or disloyalty

:43:13.:43:15.

on behalf of the government or the civil service, particularly jarring

:43:16.:43:18.

what will be a very fraught negotiation with the rest of the EU,

:43:19.:43:21.

in which various concessions will have to be made on both sides, so it

:43:22.:43:26.

will be a difficult position. It will be logistically a massive

:43:27.:43:31.

disentanglement of the UK from all the treaties, trade agreements, and

:43:32.:43:34.

there is talk that they going to have to bring in specialists from

:43:35.:43:37.

all over the place to deal with this because they're not equipped to come

:43:38.:43:41.

visit, because they haven't had to before. Canadians? There could be

:43:42.:43:48.

plenty more work for Canadians! To keep you up-to-date with some

:43:49.:43:52.

breaking news, the Daily Mail is reporting that the Conservatives

:43:53.:43:56.

will not contest Batley and Spen. We don't want to talk about

:43:57.:43:59.

by-elections at the moment as a result of Jo Cox's death, and we

:44:00.:44:03.

won't, but inevitably there will be a by-election at some stage and we

:44:04.:44:08.

understand from the Daily Mail that the Conservatives will not contest

:44:09.:44:11.

it. We haven't yet been able to corroborate that.

:44:12.:44:12.

Now, digital campaigning and social media hasn't yet taken over

:44:13.:44:14.

from more traditional means of reaching the voters.

:44:15.:44:16.

You still need to tramp the streets or come on shows like this

:44:17.:44:19.

if you really want to get your message home.

:44:20.:44:22.

But things are clearly changing, and both sides in the EU referendum

:44:23.:44:24.

campaign are using Facebook, YouTube and Twitter to try to mobilise

:44:25.:44:28.

their own voters and reach out to new ones.

:44:29.:44:32.

Tuning into social media this past month, there's been...

:44:33.:44:41.

This is more of a comment than a question and it will be

:44:42.:44:45.

Thank you very much for postponing your bedtime!

:44:46.:44:50.

They're trying to make television social.

:44:51.:44:52.

Boris's ITV appearance keeping Twitter busy,

:44:53.:44:55.

Five seconds to stop others... WHISTLE ..with your future.

:44:56.:45:05.

We have a dominatrix, where Europe is the dominatrix

:45:06.:45:11.

and the Union Jack is on its knees and is being told what to do.

:45:12.:45:15.

Ah, efforts to reach new voters must be in overdrive, then.

:45:16.:45:18.

We'll find out what's going on because we're going to meet

:45:19.:45:20.

the two women who run the biggest Twitter dataset in the UK.

:45:21.:45:23.

Or at least that's what they tell me.

:45:24.:45:25.

So we have created a little Twitter lab.

:45:26.:45:27.

We want to find out how both the Leave and Remain campaigns

:45:28.:45:38.

are using the internet to get their message

:45:39.:45:40.

When we count those, we see that the number of hashtags

:45:41.:45:45.

that are being tweeted out are 3% for Remain and 97% for Leave,

:45:46.:45:48.

at the beginning of the campaign in August.

:45:49.:45:50.

When we look at it now, we have around 25% to 35% Remain

:45:51.:45:53.

The story is always, it's the ones most motivated,

:45:54.:45:58.

the ones with most of an axe to grind, that act on Twitter.

:45:59.:46:01.

That might explain some of the disparities.

:46:02.:46:03.

So what's the nature of the debate like on Twitter?

:46:04.:46:07.

So here's the big question - what percentage of people

:46:08.:46:12.

who are on Twitter are talking about the referendum?

:46:13.:46:14.

We reckon from our study that about 0.06% of those who are talking

:46:15.:46:20.

on Twitter are actually talking about the European referendum,

:46:21.:46:24.

so it's a really tiny amount of that motivated public.

:46:25.:46:27.

But there's still tens of millions of people tweeting

:46:28.:46:31.

Beyond the echo chamber of Twitter, though, researchers

:46:32.:46:35.

from Think Tank Demos have found that social media has been

:46:36.:46:38.

motivating large numbers to get out and vote.

:46:39.:46:43.

During research we've done on the general election,

:46:44.:46:45.

figures coming in the next few weeks, we've found that social media

:46:46.:46:48.

is an incredibly important voter mobilisation tool.

:46:49.:46:51.

It's probably convinced millions across the UK to actually vote,

:46:52.:46:54.

whereas they otherwise wouldn't have.

:46:55.:46:55.

And you think that will be reflected in the referendum?

:46:56.:46:59.

I think that digital politics is only becoming more important.

:47:00.:47:03.

This referendum campaign has also seen Facebook tighten its grip

:47:04.:47:05.

As well as its tried and tested targeted ads that helped the Tories

:47:06.:47:10.

win the last general election, there have been 38 million comments,

:47:11.:47:14.

shares and likes globally during chat about the referendum,

:47:15.:47:18.

in just 13 weeks, in which 30 million daily UK users have

:47:19.:47:23.

discussed the economy, health and immigration the most.

:47:24.:47:26.

In order to have success in digital advertising, you need both

:47:27.:47:29.

The Remain side has within it the central strategist from the very

:47:30.:47:33.

They also need money to do that and that's where

:47:34.:47:38.

I don't think that the main impact of social media is really how

:47:39.:47:43.

the central campaigns are doing it, I think the main impact

:47:44.:47:45.

is in the grassroots ground swell of activity that we see

:47:46.:47:48.

There is something in the antiestablishment message

:47:49.:47:51.

of Brexit, there is something in the electricity and energy

:47:52.:47:54.

which we can see Brexit throwing into this at a grassroots level,

:47:55.:47:57.

which I think has to imply that they're getting more of a boost

:47:58.:48:00.

So, how significant could social media be

:48:01.:48:06.

Well, hot off the press - thank you - we've been handed

:48:07.:48:11.

the latest YouGov poll, which suggests that one in five

:48:12.:48:14.

swing voters use Twitter or Facebook as their main source of information,

:48:15.:48:18.

But - and here's the catch - many of them don't trust

:48:19.:48:24.

what they read online, preferring instead what their friends

:48:25.:48:27.

or family have to say or, believe it or not,

:48:28.:48:29.

And we're joined by Marcus Roberts from the polling firm YouGov.

:48:30.:48:40.

Treat has confirmed the Conservatives will not put of a

:48:41.:48:48.

candidate at the Batley Spen by-election when it comes after the

:48:49.:48:53.

murder of Jo Cox MP yesterday. The Conservatives will not contest it.

:48:54.:49:00.

We're also seeing reports from Paul Waugh of the huffing ton post. We

:49:01.:49:03.

are expecting a recall of the Commons. We've not been able to

:49:04.:49:08.

confirm that. Paul, a reliable reporter. That's what he's saying.

:49:09.:49:12.

When we hear about it confirmed, we'll let you know too. We're joined

:49:13.:49:19.

by Marcus Roberts from the polling service YouGov.

:49:20.:49:20.

He's got experience of working on digital campaigns,

:49:21.:49:22.

Would it be fair to say digital campaigns are an essential part of a

:49:23.:49:32.

political campaign? You need them? Absolutely. Let's understand what

:49:33.:49:39.

social media's good for con campaigns. Twitter is good for

:49:40.:49:46.

rallying existing supporters. It is good tor he can echoing the elite

:49:47.:49:51.

shameer of the SW 1 postcode. It is not a good tool for reaching out to

:49:52.:49:58.

voters. What is, is Facebook. Whilst Facebook is still only trusted as a

:49:59.:50:04.

major source of information by about 15% of voters, voters in are YouGov

:50:05.:50:12.

surveys consistently tell us they trust in politics information from

:50:13.:50:17.

friends and family another than any other source of information,

:50:18.:50:24.

television or newspapers. The prize for Leave or Remain is to get their

:50:25.:50:29.

supporters through Facebook, to tell their friends and family, this is

:50:30.:50:34.

how I'm voting. It is not perceived as a social media influence, it is a

:50:35.:50:37.

personal one which has power. Interesting on this evidence on

:50:38.:50:42.

Facebook. More and more I see people are getting their news from

:50:43.:50:46.

Facebook. It's not Facebook news. From other sources but they are

:50:47.:50:52.

reading it on their Facebook areas. And their friends are sharing

:50:53.:50:57.

stories. Have a look at this. ' You see that and so on. A number of

:50:58.:51:02.

Labour politicians said to me in the aftermath of their defeat last year

:51:03.:51:06.

instead of going on and on about the ground campaign, they had this

:51:07.:51:09.

wonderful ground campaign they should have spent a lot more money

:51:10.:51:15.

on Facebook. Sement Murphy says if he had his time again as Scottish

:51:16.:51:19.

Labour Leader, he would have spent almost all his money on Facebook.

:51:20.:51:25.

But that spending falls into two categories. Advertising, promoted

:51:26.:51:29.

posts from the campaign and two, something we really don't know

:51:30.:51:35.

about, targeted sharing. That's where you ask as a campaign an

:51:36.:51:41.

existing supporter to press a butt to share a suppress I'vic link with

:51:42.:51:45.

specific friends and family members that the campaign's targeted as

:51:46.:51:49.

being more susceptible to your inflewence. On the Obama campaign in

:51:50.:51:58.

2012, they believe about 600,000 voters used target sharing ability

:51:59.:52:02.

to influence 500,000 voters across America ma. We don't know the scale

:52:03.:52:07.

the leave and remain are sharing. But we'll see this was a major

:52:08.:52:10.

factor in the spending of both campaigns. It changes the nature of

:52:11.:52:15.

our campaigning in terms of finance forever in this country. Unlike the

:52:16.:52:20.

United States and some other countries, you cannot buy political

:52:21.:52:25.

advertising. One of the reasons American campaigns are so expensive.

:52:26.:52:29.

Billions of pounds are spent on spot advertising. There's no regulation

:52:30.:52:35.

of buying political advertising on social media. You can make video and

:52:36.:52:41.

American-style TV commercials. You can. Won of the worries about the

:52:42.:52:47.

forthcoming presidential election, Facebook and the people who own

:52:48.:52:50.

Facebook appear to be pro-Hillary and will do what they can to promote

:52:51.:52:57.

Hillary and do down Trump. Can they do anything? There was an argument

:52:58.:53:02.

that theal rhythms were biased to the left. It is not Facebook

:53:03.:53:06.

providing here is the news from Facebook. You go on to your Facebook

:53:07.:53:10.

account and you've got certain news you follow. People, your friends

:53:11.:53:15.

send you news as well. It's news from the BBC or the newspapers or

:53:16.:53:20.

whatever. Yeah, it is interesting. I follow all of you on Twitter. Are

:53:21.:53:25.

gripped by Twitter. I've been told this is marginal, as you confirm, in

:53:26.:53:29.

terms of the wider political spectrum. It's all on Facebook. At

:53:30.:53:35.

the last election, the Conservatives had some brilliant social media

:53:36.:53:38.

strategists who had this completely in their minds. All that talk about

:53:39.:53:43.

Labour winning a ground war and so on was completely surpassed by these

:53:44.:53:48.

geniuses at Conservative headquarters targeted voters through

:53:49.:53:52.

this Facebook mechanism. They'd been hired by the Remain group now who

:53:53.:53:56.

are clearly trying to do the same. I imagine the outers are also on to

:53:57.:54:03.

this. If you're right, it's of greater significance than landing of

:54:04.:54:06.

a newspaper, the online stuff and all the rest of it, that this

:54:07.:54:10.

passing of information through friends. What's important is it's

:54:11.:54:16.

only as good as the message that you're selling. The problem the

:54:17.:54:21.

Labour Party field organisers and regional staff and campaign staff

:54:22.:54:25.

had last year was how good was the product they were really selling.

:54:26.:54:31.

The problem Remain and Leave will be asking, is how good is the product

:54:32.:54:36.

they're selling? Facebook, social media, ground campaigns can be great

:54:37.:54:40.

and very well targeted and professionally executed. If the

:54:41.:54:44.

message doesn't resonate, you'll always have a problem. Good to know

:54:45.:54:50.

wherever the media is the message still matters.

:54:51.:54:51.

So, it's been a week defined by increasingly hectic campaigning

:54:52.:54:53.

ahead of next week's EU referendum and by tragedy,

:54:54.:54:56.

Here's Giles with our regular round-up of the week in 60 seconds.

:54:57.:55:03.

On Monday, a rainbow coalition of MPs turned out for a vigil

:55:04.:55:06.

to remember the victims of the mass shooting at the Pulse gay

:55:07.:55:09.

Labour ramped up the case for Remain in the EU referendum campaign

:55:10.:55:15.

this week, with a number of Shadow Cabinet members delivering

:55:16.:55:17.

speeches, despite one or two vocal opponents.

:55:18.:55:20.

George Osborne warned on Wednesday that he'd have to slash

:55:21.:55:23.

spending and increase taxes in the event of Brexit,

:55:24.:55:25.

but 65 of his own MPs immediately responded,

:55:26.:55:28.

saying they'd never support what they described

:55:29.:55:30.

The Chancellor basically needs to calm down and, regrettably,

:55:31.:55:35.

Philip Green did appear in front of a select committee to answer

:55:36.:55:40.

He said he shouldn't have sold the company to Dominic Chappell

:55:41.:55:45.

and vowed to sort out its pensions problem.

:55:46.:55:51.

On Thursday afternoon, the EU referendum campaigns

:55:52.:55:53.

were suspended following the news that MP Jo Cox had been

:55:54.:55:56.

A minute's silence was held in memory of the Batley

:55:57.:56:00.

So, campaigning has been suspended ahead of next week's EU referendum

:56:01.:56:12.

But the Remain campaign has confirmed to the Daily Politics

:56:13.:56:19.

that their campaign will resume tomorrow,

:56:20.:56:22.

and continue through until next Thursday.

:56:23.:56:24.

We've not been able to confirm when the Leave campaign

:56:25.:56:27.

. But we've not been able to confirm that. It is a short break. There are

:56:28.:56:37.

some thinking that perhaps it should be suspended through the weekend and

:56:38.:56:41.

the Commons should come back. That doesn't look like it will happen?

:56:42.:56:46.

The Commons might come back but not that long break in the campaign? No.

:56:47.:56:51.

If you think about it, there are just a few days to go. It would have

:56:52.:56:57.

been impossible to extend it however tragic the context of yesterday. So,

:56:58.:57:02.

it is inevitable. It will still have an impact on the tone and people

:57:03.:57:06.

will have to be very careful, the leading figures on both sides, how

:57:07.:57:11.

they play that resuming of the campaigning as from tomorrow. So, I

:57:12.:57:16.

think there will be an ongoing impact. If Parliament is recalled on

:57:17.:57:21.

Monday, that also will have an impact on the campaign. They can't

:57:22.:57:26.

really be campaigning that day? No, they'll all be back here. It will be

:57:27.:57:30.

interesting to hear if that's confirmed. It will have an impact on

:57:31.:57:34.

Monday. Getting close. Only two days after that. Both sides of the

:57:35.:57:41.

campaign will feet the weight of Jo Cox's murder as they do return to

:57:42.:57:46.

campaigning. They will be careful, I would think, of the tone? Yes. I

:57:47.:57:52.

think it would be wrong to assume even in the absence of Jo Cox's

:57:53.:57:57.

murder the tone would deteriorate further and the atmosphere become

:57:58.:58:02.

more February rile. I was talking to a senior campaign strategist who

:58:03.:58:05.

said in the final week of the campaign what both sides need to do

:58:06.:58:08.

is produce a positive, optimistic message. That tends to be the

:58:09.:58:12.

pattern in campaigns. It's easier, I think, for the Brexit side, Steve

:58:13.:58:17.

May disagree, to come up with an optimistic reason to vote Leave than

:58:18.:58:23.

the Remain side to come up. I disagree with that. I knew you

:58:24.:58:27.

would. We don't know yet. We won't go into it. Too early yet. But we

:58:28.:58:31.

don't know yet what the impact of this will be on the referendum. That

:58:32.:58:36.

is for days to come. I thank you both for being with me on this day.

:58:37.:58:39.

I think all of our guests. The one o'clock news is starting

:58:40.:58:41.

over on BBC One now. And I'll be back on Sunday

:58:42.:58:44.

with the Sunday Politics,

:58:45.:58:48.

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