21/06/2016 Daily Politics

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

David Cameron wants to reduce net migration to less than 100,000

So why has his former head of strategy said

that the Prime Minister was told four years ago that the promise

The man who made millions when Britain tumbled out of the ERM

on Black Wednesday's warning that it could be a Black Friday

Should we take him seriously or is he just another wealthy

Six big-hitting politicians of the main stage, 6,000 Leave

and Remain supporters in the audience.

Are you ready for the BBC's Great Referendum Debate?

The fur is flying on Twitter in a feline face-off.

But how do these cats' owners know what they think?

With us for the whole of the programme today,

Two rivals in the referendum debate but they will not be as voracious as

felines, or maybe they will! Times columnist and ex-

Conservative Tim Montgomerie, The Confederation of

British Industry's first female whose big business members

are campaigning to stay in. First this morning, forget

the Stadium Municipal in Toulouse, scene of Wales' footballing triumph

yesterday, another iconic footballing address will be

the scene of great drama tonight. Wembley - the arena not the stadium

- is hosting the BBC's Great Debate tonight

on BBC One at 8pm. It's the biggest referendum event

of the campaign and its compere has taken a break from a busy

rehearsal to join us. I am pleased to welcome the

masterful David Dimbleby. That is a massive audience, 6000, and you have

to keep them under control. I wish it were Wembley Stadium. We could

have filled Wembley Stadium ten times over the amount of interest in

this debate. Millions of people will be watching. We are in the arena,

which is great. I am taking my guitar, I will be singing a ditty,

hello, Wembley! We have had weeks and weeks of discussion. What

happens in a long campaign is all kinds of detail is gone into but at

the end, when people go into the polling booth, it normally focuses

on two or three big points. I think tonight the campaigns will focus on

those and the audience asking the questions, they will focus on what

seemed to be the most important, the visceral feeling that will make

people decide whether In or Out is for them. You have a panel of three

petitions each side. How will it work? It is carefully worked out

between the two sides. The Vote Leave and Remain campaigns have

chosen the people, three on each side. There will be an opening

statement and closing statement, one minute for each. I think long

opening statements in some debates have been tedious. Short statements.

In between, those six will debate questions that have been chosen from

the audience. Also Michelle Hussain will be there with ten people

listening at the back of the stadium, commenting on what they

have heard. It should have a good pace. That will work well. And the

last 20 minutes, we are in the spin room and hearing reaction from

outsiders, politicians, everybody. Two hours, but it is not two long

hours of statements. I hope to get a good dialogue running across the

stage. That is the plan. It is Wembley, it sounds like a warm up

for Glastonbury if you have your guitar. There are two stages. There

are three, really. There is me, Michelle Hussain with a gang of

people. Empoli outside in the spin room. -- Emily Maitlis. It is not

raining. There are train strikes coming out of your ears. I hope

people will get here. Before we closed the books we had 20,000

people applying. It is fantastic inside. It is a huge stadium with

bleachers all around. We are on a big stage. It is bigger and more

glamorous than any thing you can imagine. It is better than your set.

The bar is low here, I can assure you! You go back to your bigger and

better set. Are you happy with the Remain line-up, this close to

polling day, would you have liked to have seen the Prime Minister, George

Osborne? I think it is a good line-up. We are getting to the final

distillation of the argument. To have a line-up that are not

necessarily be usual suspects. Francis O'Grady I think will make a

terrific case for workers' rights. Ruth Davidson, who presented a

strong Remain case. And Sadiq Khan, coming out strong on London and not

just London. Does Boris Johnson perform well in this format? I think

he does. The Leave side have the same people who appeared on ITV, if

I am allowed to mention that. We can name the competitors! Theirs was a

smaller event than the BBC! The Leave team, a conservative, Gisela

Stuart, Labour, who did a good job two weeks ago. The Leave pudding at

the same team. In that debate, people like -- putting out the same

team. Boris was disciplined in not responding. I think there was an

attempt to provoke Boris. The danger if Remain repeat that it allowed

Gisela Stuart and Andrew to make points uninterrupted. People were

focused on attacking Boris which allowed the other Leave spokesman to

make points more clearly. Ruth Davidson, the Conservative leader in

Scotland has been chosen, I think to duff up Boris. She is pugnacious.

Interesting. Particularly after the tragedy of last week, an emphasis on

personal attacks will not go down well and I hope both sides will

emphasise, as Carolyn said, the big closing arguments of the campaign,

so we have substance rather than pettiness. What about changing

minds? People are still saying they do not know or their minds could be

changed. How important is it in that regard? Really important. I think if

we can get away... If in this last week people can get back to core

arguments around the economy, arguments around immigration,

sovereignty, if they can be brought together in a simple and straight

forward and honest way, I think it could be compelling for people to

make their final minds up. There I say it, because we are on our show,

is there anything left to say? We had this great debate and you want

to ram home the messages of both campaigns, is there anything new to

say? I do not think there is anything new to say but there are

undecided people. It seems to be a diminishing number. It might be ten

or 15%. It could swing a result. My feeling is if you ask people whether

they would join the European Union if we were not already members, the

pollsters find overwhelmingly not. People are frightened of leaving

because of scare stories put out by the business community and by the

Prime Minister, it is almost an emotional thing now. Do people

believe enough in Britain's ability to survive outside of the EU? If

people want facts there are only a certain number of facts. It is an

element of faith now. Will it be heart rather than head? I think it

will be a mixture of the two and what is coming through strongly is

the sense of opportunities and benefits for the economy of being in

the EU. I am pleased that we have begun to see more about positive

arguments, the fact we are on the verge of a digital single market

with Vodafone talking about the advantages and smaller businesses.

The services economy and that opportunity. I think there is an

opportunity for positive economic arguments around jobs, prosperity,

that can come through. The question for today is which of

these cats supports Brexit? At the end of the show,

Tim and Carolyn will give Now - the Conservatives' 2010

election campaign promised to reduce net migration

to the tens of thousands. in a Coalition Government,

at last year's election the Conservatives AGAIN included

the commitment in their manifesto. But now Steve Hilton -

who is the the former director of strategy at Downing Street -

has said that officials told them back in 2012 that the commitment

was unachievable if we stayed This question of immigration

in this referendum isn't about whether you want lower

immigration or higher immigration. It's about whether the government

that people elect in this And when I was working

in government, we were told by officials that as long

as we are in the EU, we couldn't And that's why I think we need

to leave the EU. And David Cameron was asked

about Steve Hilton's claim by Lorraine Kelly on ITV this

morning. It had fallen quite substantially

and it had got to not far away from the ambition I set. There are good

ways of controlling immigration. People who work here have to work

four years before getting full access to the welfare system. But

pulling out of the single market, wrecking our economy, that is a bad

way. Are you surprised to hear Steve

Hilton being prominent in the closing weeks in this campaign,

particularly with the claim that civil servants told number 10 when

he was there it was not achievable to bring net migration down to tens

of thousands if the UK stayed in the EU? I am not surprised. I talked to

Steve when he worked for the Prime Minister and was very frustrated

them by the amount of paperwork that came across his desk from the

European Union. He had a colour-coded system, the stuff that

came from the Coalition Government, the stuff from Europe and the stuff

from the civil service and he said the biggest pile was the stuff

Europe generated, an illustration of how much we are governed by the EU,

and I think he is right saying as long as we are part of the EU, we do

not know if immigration is 330 thousand net, 555,000 next year. We

have no mechanism to control it and if we have no mechanism to control

it, we cannot plan for its impact on hospitals and schools and the

housing market. Was it a mistake to continue to make the pledge to

reduce net migration to tens of thousands when you cannot control at

least half? It is a political choice and I have to say it is one the

business community has always thought is a challenging thing. You

cannot control the number of people who leave and so it would always be

challenging, and it means there has been a focus on the control of this

number rather than what is in the best interests of jobs, the economy.

I think we would be entirely happy if there was not a net migration

number. This is one of the big gaps. The business wants cheap labour.

They want imported cheap labour from all over Europe because it keeps

costs down. Quite a lot of the Leave side want high immigration. We have

heard from Michael Gove and Boris Johnson. It is important we have

immigration. We need certain people for hospitals, we need highly

skilled people. If we are in control, we know the next year we

will get to a certain amount, we can adjusted accordingly, but the

problem at the moment, because we have no control over immigration

from the rest of Europe, we can have big swings that great big pressures.

What about cheap labour, unskilled workers? That is not right. Be

honest. A lot of the opportunities, we have had huge skill shortages

across the country. In the West Midlands they have a shortage of

engineers. This has been one way we have been able to continue to grow.

I recognise and members recognise this causes challenges in some parts

and do not under estimate that. But the solutions are not enclosing our

borders. Wouldn't it be better if we could pick and choose, which we

could do if we had control? One of the things that we forget

that this is a benefit to our people here. Answer the question I asked

rather than changing the subject. It is an important point. In the 1980s,

when our economy was growing less quickly, and the German economy was

growing well, we had our feeders then, pet, young people going over

to Germany to work, and it was a great opportunity. Young people love

the idea that they could go and work abroad, and that is a reciprocal

idea. At the moment it is going in one direction, but it could go in

the other. We will talk about immigration are little later. To

come back to the central point that Steve Hilton was making, they were

warned that it wasn't possible. Steve Hilton has also said, and

Michael Gove today, he assumed the Prime Minister would negotiate a

better deal around this issue of freedom of movement. You think that

is also what happened at the time, that they assumed they would be able

to do something ahead of the referendum, and the Prime Minister

says they have? There was an a real belief in Downing Street that they

would get this emergency brake, they said, give us something if numbers

released at a rocket, we could turn the tap off, because you talk to the

New Zealand or Australia Prime Minister is, they have much higher

levels of immigration, but it is not a political issue, and their

explanation for that is that at any time, they can turn off the tap,

they have control. I did think the British people are not generous,

they understand the points that Carolyn make, they need certain

levels of skilled labour. But when Germany so ruthlessly and

uncompromisingly said you can't have anything at all, that gave us an

illustration really of Europe's unwillingness to even give, when we

had to the head of the referendum, Europe is not in a mood for

compromise, not in a move try to help Britain out, which is one of

the reasons why we are better out of the club. Were you surprised that

there was not as much corporation from countries like Germany and

France over this issue of trying to control the flow of freedom of

movement? I think there is a really important thing at the heart of all

of this, this is what the single market involves. And that is going

to be one of the core choices for the British public on Thursday. It

is part of being a member of the single market, and the benefits of

that, we believe, are really significant. It is part of that,

that idea of free movement, that is at the heart of this choice. All

right. Alongside immigration, the other

battle today is the economy. Some of the biggest names

on the high street are today warning that families will face higher

prices if we leave the EU. Former bosses of Tesco, Sainsbury's,

Marks Spencer, Asda, Waitrose and Morrisons have all said

the rising costs of the weekly shop would be "catastrophic

for ordinary families". Their letter came as retail worker

union Usdaw suggested that workers would be ?580 worse off if Britain

left the EU due to a hit on sterling But economists for Brexit countered

with a warning that unskilled EU migrants cost each taxpayer

on average ?17.75 per month. They base this on a family of four

costing ?29,225 in tax credits, housing and child benefit

and the cost of education They say single unskilled workers

cost ?849 each year. Meanwhile, financier

George Soros, who made a fortune betting against the pound

on Black Wednesday, said sterling would "decline precipitously"

if Leave win this week. But Unite boss Len McCluskey,

despite backing Remain, said that EU immigration has led

to "sustained pressure on living standards"

at the "expense" of British workers. Well, we can now talk to our guest,

he is in Cardiff, Patrick Minford. Your report today says on skilled

immigrants cost ?6.6 billion per year, but this is based on families

of four with a stay at home mother. Do you know many families of four on

skilled migrants with stay at home mums in the UK? The basic point is

that it costs the best part of ?30,000 for that particular family

type, if an unskilled worker brings in the rest of the family and he has

two kids, ages 30 grand. Of course it can be less, it can be more. The

whole point is that if you are an unskilled worker, you don't pay much

tax, and you often get tax credits. If you have a family, you get a lot

of tax credits, say your contribution to the Exchequer is

probably negative, and then you impose the costs of health,

education and housing on us, the other taxpayers, and of course

particularly on the local communities who have to endure these

costs locally rather than nationally. So it is very easy for

the rest of us to say, it is very nice to have cheap labour and so on.

The costs are borne by the local communities, which is why they are

angry. But it is your figures that we are looking at. You seem to be

saying you based the figures, the number of unskilled migrant

families, on the UK average household composition. Most people

would agree that the two are not the parable. We don't know exactly,

unfortunately. So why have you used it as an illustrative figure? We

have 28% single and the rest are family. The number can be smaller or

larger. Under the fact of our welfare system, you get much more

than you pay in. If you had a family of one kid, it would be the same. If

you have a family, if you only have one and a nonworking mother, you get

tax credits. That is the point, the facts of our welfare system. The

basic point, Jo, is that if you have a welfare system, you act as a

magnet for unskilled workers. If you also have a high level employment,

followed by Matt on an economy doing well when the rest of Europe is

doing badly. So you are assuming that three quarters of farm workers

and labourers come here with their partners and children, whereas on

skilled migrants are usually young. You really saying they cost our

health service every year. There is a indeed, there is childbirth, if

you have kids... The whole point is we don't really exactly, but what we

do know is that this welfare state, and this is why of course Australia

has a green card system, and it doesn't let in unskilled workers, or

if they do let unskilled workers, they'd let them in with dependents,

because they cost so much to the welfare state. This is the

fundamental point, and that is why we could get lots of lots of

unskilled workers. And there is a further point, that they put a

depressing effect on the local wage on the local economy, which again is

a factor that is very unpopular, naturally, with the people in those

areas. Say you have a package that is damaging to poor people, and is

not damaging to richer people and those with privilege. Lets get your

response, Carolyn, because one of the things Patrick Minford is saying

is that they are not paying in as much as they are taking at, browse

the overall contribution the country from EU migrants according to a lot

of studies, certainly in taxes paid, is greater than the amount taken at.

Where I agree with Patrick is that there are local issues, and we

accept that. But this is highly misleading analysis in terms of the

kind of natural family composition. We know from experience that it is

not a family of four that is the typical model here, and studies have

shown that the net contribution is around about ?2.5 billion overall,

so these are highly misleading figures. The other thing I would

like to pick up on this this point about the depressing of wages. There

has been a very detailed Bank of England study done at the end of

last year that pulled together all of the different research on this.

They concluded that the impact on immigration and wages was

negligible, and close to zero. So I have to say, this is not helping or

adding or clarifying this important debate at all. Patrick Minford, can

I just say, low skilled British people should be more worried by the

claims of the supermarket bosses that leaving the EU would cause

supermarket prices to rise, rather than having their wages depressed.

If you go to free trade and have competition in the supermarket to

get rid of the common agricultural policy and the protectionist

policies of the EU, you will bring prices down massively. What they are

talking about is a temporary effect on the exchange rate of the way the

economy reacts to Brexit, which is a completely different matter. And so

if they look in terms of the living standards of people after the

adjustment has come through, they go up. And that is what they have done,

they have just said, they have assumed, like George Soros, a big

policy uncertainty effect on the exchange rate, which is temporary,

and the exchange rate will simply stabilise the economy like it did

after we left the exchange rate mechanism. Are you worried about

that, Tim Montgomerie? George Torres is worried about the Sterling

falling precipitously. That would have a dramatic effect even in the

short term. I was at the Bank of England, I had just joined them at

the time of the week fell out of the exchange rate mechanism, and you

talk about black Wednesday and Black Friday. A lot of us remember it as

White Wednesday, the day a 14 year economic recovery began. There will

be some uncertainty. But you don't think that is important in and of

itself? The economy has automatic stabilisers, and a small downward

movement in the pound would help exporters you're in that period. We

don't have an inflation problem at the moment, in fact we have some

risk of deviation, so a more competitive pound would suit the UK

economy very well for a period, and once our trade arrangements are

stabilised, we can go back to a more normal situation. Do you agree with

that assessment? There are two things here. In terms of the

immediate effect on the pound, I think that we can all be, there will

be a pound fall,... Will it be as dramatic as George Soros said, 15%?

Other areas are forecasting something similar. But the other

area is what we might expect in terms of longer-term tariffs and the

effect on prices. The leave campaign is now talking about falling out of

the single market and facing WTO type tariffs, and that would

increase prices in the long run, and I have talked to a lot of businesses

who are concerned about the effects of tariffs on prices and what that

would do. Given that you previously said that we shouldn't be scared if

manufacturing is eliminated if we leave the EU, concentrated on other

industries, why should any low paid worker trust you to have their

interests at heart? That is a misquote, as you know very well.

What I have said is that manufacturing that is unable to

compete in the globalised world would be eliminated. I made it quite

clear that high-tech manufacturing would thrive, and that is what we

are looking for. Our car industry raises productivity, it already

sells two thirds of his exports to the world market, and half of our

exports overall go to the world market. Manufacturing can compete.

It goes upmarket, that is how it works. And what in fact Carolyn

misrepresented is, as they always have on this issue, we're talking

about eliminating tariffs on our imports, which has a massive effect

on the welfare of consumers here, and is the dynamic for the economy.

And as for those tariffs on our exports Big E you may or may not

slap on, -- that the EU may or may not slap on, and big companies will

do it because they don't like the effects of their car experts, but we

will get a competitive economy, and manufacturers who are worth their

salt will welcome the contribution to raise their game. You said we

misquoted you. You did say over time that we would mostly eliminate

manufacturing if we left the EU, leaving mostly designed... I'm

sorry, if you read more than one sentence, I made it perfectly clear

that the hi tech was accepted, and the way in which manufacturing

adjusts is through going up in value. That is how the CBI's members

have adjusted, that is how the kindest is a world markets. You are

talking in a very negative as narrow-minded way. I was trying to

raise our eyes to the idea of global competition across our economy to

the enormous benefit of our consumers, and we can perfectly well

help our manufacturers over this rough patch where they have actually

got to face global competition in their home market as well, and why

not? Let be put back to Tim McGarry. Do you think people working in

manufacturing and other low paid workers should listen to Patrick

Minford over Carolyn Fairburn when it comes to talking about their

jobs, long-term prosperity and the future? I think they should listen

to everybody... That is very diplomatic! And they should also

listen to James Dyson, one of our most successful inventors, or

Anthony Bamford, head of JCB, Europe's largest construction

manufacturer. Lots of businesses, small businesses, big visitors do

very well out of the EU, partly because of the cheap labour. Small

businesses who don't trade with the EU still have to put up with a lot

of the EU regulations. Let me just answer that and then you can come

back. This is not true, we have many small

members who want to stay. A lot of what you talk about is product

standardisation. A cheese manufacturer in Somerset to benefits

from the standardisation in standards and packaging, many

companies like that. The idea it is all about big business is wrong and

it is not borne out... The great opportunity of leaving the EU is

nine tenths of growth in exports is with the rest of the world. Europe

is a declining part. It is declining twice as fast as America, an

equivalent advanced... It is about half and half at the moment. Europe

is losing its share. Because it is 28 member states, cannot agree on

how to solve the Euro crisis, the refugee... It could not agree trade

agreements with China or other parts of the fast-growing world. On our

own, able to move in a nimble way, we consign those agreements with the

emerging world. MPs and peers gathered

in Westminster yesterday for a special recall of Parliament

to remember the MP Jo Cox, who was brutally murdered

in her constituency of Batley It was an extraordinary occasion

with heartfelt tributes from politicians on all sides

and a very emotional one for those We have lost one of our own,

and our society as a whole has lost We need, Mr Speaker,

a kinder and gentler politics. This is not a factional

party political point. We all have a responsibility in this

House - and beyond - not to whip up Jo was a humanitarian to her core,

a passionate and brilliant campaigner whose grit

and determination to fight for justice saw her time and time

again driving issues up the agenda and making people listen,

and above all, act. Quite simply, there are people

on our planet today who are only Jo had a way with people,

a way of relating to people from all walks of life,

and she had a real Jo wanted to make the world fairer,

more equal, more tolerant We all have better instincts

and deepest fears. Jo appealed to our better instincts,

our sense that, as she said in her maiden speech,

what we have in common is greater Making common cause with a crusty

old Tory, she and I became co-chairs She was the heart and soul of these

benches, and we are heartbroken. We loved her every day,

and we will miss her every day. She inspired us all,

and I swear that we will do everything in our power to make her

and her family incredibly proud. There was no dividing line

between Jo's maternal heart Her children will grow up

to know what an amazing She is such a great

loss to our politics, an irreplaceable loss

to her family, to whom we send She was always passionate

about the issues she cared about, never afraid to stand up for those

she felt had no voice, but she was also a proud Yorkshire

woman, and our county Mr Speaker, the fearless

Jo Cox never stopped She gave voice to the voiceless,

she spoke truth to power. She exemplified the best values

of our party and of our country, compassion, community,

solidarity and internationalism. And she put her convictions to work

for everyone she touched. For the people of Batley and Spen,

for the wretched of Syria, for victims of violence

and injustice everywhere. Spontaneous applause at the end of

those heartfelt tributes from MPs following the brutal and tragic

murder of the MP Jo Cox last week. Much of the referendum debate has

centred on whether it's possible to control immigration whilst

remaining a member Here is the Labour leader Jeremy

Corbyn on Sunday responding to a question from the BBC's Andrew Marr

about whether he thought they should be any upper limit on migration to

this country. I don't think you can have one

while you have a free movement of labour and I think the free

movement of labour means that you have to balance the economy

so you have to improve living So that means the European Union's

appalling treatment of Greece, particularly the European Central

Bank, as well as the European Union, If you actually deliberately lower

living standards and increase poverty in certain countries

in south-east or Eastern Europe, then you're bound to have a flow

of people looking for somewhere Surely the issue is

an anti-austerity, a growth package Now, that was seen as a gaffe

by some observers - a Remain campaigner appearing

to admit that immigration could not But what if you don't believe

in controlling immigration and that Well, the Anglican priest

and commentator Giles Fraser Tim Montgomerie has said that

controlling immigration is the most important

issue in the referendum. Both are in favour

of leaving the EU. Tim Montgomerie, Giles Frazer Wright

is critically, in this era of advance globalisation we believe in

free trade, free movement of goods that not in the free movement of

labour. That describes you. Why does your liberalism stop at national

borders? Because it is about managing situations. I am sure Giles

would not necessarily except one, two million, 3 million people coming

into Britain at one point because it would overwhelm public services and

communities. We should be a country that welcomes refugees and is open

to humanitarian responsibilities. People are confident about playing

the humanitarian role if they know the government of not letting in

undesirables, that they monitor refugees, could not be including

terrorists for example. Should there be an upper limit? I am not

convinced there should be. It would take 3 million? I do not think that

will happen, it is a fantasy figure will stop I think that is

scaremongering. We have not had this obsession with borders in this

country, it is only 100 years since we had immigration controls, which

we started having because people were terrified of the amount of

Jewish people coming to this country, that is how it started.

There is a racist element about border controls, as there was then

and as there is now. A lot of the fear is that there will be the other

who will come to swamp us. I think it is a fantasy. You believe that

people like Tim Montgomerie who say they should be managed, our races? I

think Tim is right about this, we should be in control of our borders.

I think... I want to make the case we should be in control of them and

it should be democratically decided and we should be... I may be an

extremist on this, but we could be more generous than now and we should

be generous particularly to people from outside the EU. The EU itself

is shockingly bad on migrants and migration. That is where I agreed.

Would you like to see greater numbers, perhaps equal numbers,

equal numbers in hundreds of thousands of people from outside the

EU? I will not say whether it is equal or not but where I agree with

Giles, I think he might live in fantasies land on his general

position but an Indian, Australian, South African, should not have

second-class status when it comes to entering Britain compared to a

French or German person. The problem is not little England, but European.

It has become inward looking as a continent. As Giles said, border

controls have always been racist, going back to the 30s, not allowing

Jewish people escaping Germany. With all due respect... You know when

someone says that... Accusing people who worry about immigration of

racism, of course there is some races and it is unfair, opinion

polls, every ethnic minority community of Britain is opposed to

large-scale immigration. It is not about the colour of the skin or

religion of the immigrant, it is about the scale. You are one of

those people who floats around the world on your passport because you

are back and forth. Borders mean nothing to you because you are

wealthy enough. African farmers, people in poor countries, for whom

borders mean something, Syrian, they mean nothing to us. There is

definitely... It is about penning the poor people into poverty. What

about community cohesion, that must be something you worry about. There

are risks outlined by some people that if you don't have it managed,

you will need a breakdown. What has happened in the referendum is a

classic example. There is a large group of people who feel completely

they have not been listened to and they are not attended to and they

are readily exploited by those who want to go... This is all about this

scary other immigrant. I think their anxiety is more about jobs, housing,

the real thing is for people. I think people in this country are not

concerned about the colour of the skin about the person living next

door to them. So they are not racist, you have contradicted

yourself? I think the idea we have to insist on our borders, there is

something racist about that, that we have to build up a moat. I do not

think British people are racist, I think that this is being exploited

by people like Nigel Farage, there is a genuine feeling of anger that

people have not been listened to which is being exploited and changed

and shifted in this debate over the referendum. If you think it is a key

issue, immigration. The polls seem to bear that out. You think on

balance when it is stood alongside the economy and the value of the

muddy in people'spocket, that will trump issues of immigration -- value

of money. People can see both sides of the economic debate is balance.

There are costs of leaving the single market. I also think they can

see the advantages of having better connections with fast-growing parts

of the world. The economic argument is muddy for people. But there

of the world. The economic argument only one way we can get control of

borders and that is to leave the EU. That is one big factor in this

debate in a debate with few facts. If we have that control, Giles can

stand on his manifesto of letting anybody in and I will stand on mine

of controlling. We could see who could get more votes. We will do

of controlling. We could see who that! If you are in a position of

principal about this. I am flagging up a principle and these principles

the west has had. Look on the Statue of Liberty and the moving quote,

bring me your huddled masses. No one is living up to that because they

are building a fence around it to stop Mexicans coming in. What about

the tone, has it been what you would like to hear on the immigration

debate? No. All sides of this debate in different ways have sometimes let

themselves down. I think the Nigel Farage poster that has been

controversial was not acceptable. It was not factual. It portrayed dark

skinned people trying to get into Britain when they were not even

trying to get into Europe. It was not acceptable, that aspect of the

debate. Just because the poster ad Nigel Farage has behaved

inappropriately, it does not mean working-class communities seeing

their wages depressed, that is not racist, it is a reasonable concern

about immigration's impact on local economies.

Giles Fraser, thank you for coming in.

Now, there's been name calling, furious briefing

So can the Tory party put itself back together

after Thursday's referendum - and how?

In a moment, we'll be joined by the leading

Conservative Remain campaigner, who's being making his case forcibly

on social media - Nicholas Soames - first here's a little reminder

of the less obliging things Conservatives have

I think the strain of the campaign is

Lord Heseltine is a frightful old humbug who divided

the Conservative Party more than anybody else in our modern

history, and a period of silence on his part would be welcome.

I must say, it is always good to hear voices from the past.

I'd be grateful if they remained in the past.

Well, he's the life and soul of the party.

But he's not the man you want driving you home

The Chancellor bascially needs to calm down and regrettably

When I heard that, I did think of Pinocchio and the nose

Unfortunately, those of us at the outset with that very

clear, inclusive, moderate vision for Brexit have, over time,

been taken over by a message which is divisive,

which is inward-looking, which is xenophobic.

Well, Nicholas Soames is with us here. There are two letters

circulating in Tory circles that have been reported, one calling for

a vote of no-confidence in David Cameron's leadership. Are the people

who have signed it treacherous? I think it is up to them whether they

signed a letter or not. It is not something I would personally do, and

I think it is very unhelpful, and as we have no idea how matters will

turnout, I think it is a foolish thing to do, but it is well known

that there are people who have had it in the David Cameron since the

day he was elected. My colleague Nadine Dorries put her objection

into the Prime Minister within a week of

him being in government. I am a fan of the Prime Minister, and he has

already announced he will leave before the next election, so what is

the point? There is another letter saying that the Prime Minister must

stay in situ, but it does indicate the bad blood that is running

through the Conservative Party? I am an agnostic on this, because I think

there is a bad blood, a bit of bad blood, but by and large, this has

not been as bad as Maastricht. You don't think it is as bad? That was a

matter for the House of Commons. This is a fundamental disagreement

throughout the country. This isn't just in the House of Commons. OK,

there is some bad blood around, but it is not blood that is bad enough

for us not to come together on a big agenda. Do you agree with that? I

don't think John Major has ever really forgiven Iain Duncan Smith as

example of post Maastricht relations. Do you think this will

really change whatever the result? I don't think it will be easy, because

this has been a massive national debate, but one of the advantages

the Conservative Party has, Conservative minded people like me

can see Michael Gove and Boris Johnson, which I'm sure if David

Cameron is why is coming he will bring in in some form, people like

Nicolas who support Remain, they concede David Cameron George

Osborne, we have people who, if the party does form a broad cabinet

after this, we can see our people at the top. The contrast with the

Labour Party is the huge number of working-class Labour supporters who

are voting to leave, there is almost no one at the top of the Labour

Party that represents them. There has been a lot of focus on the

problems is that the Conservative Party, but it may well be that the

Labour Party loses a lot of its supporters' trust because of the

referendum. We're talking about the politicians and the people in the

Cabinet at the moment of the MPs that do or don't support them. From

the outside, Carolyn, are you frightened about what might happen

after the result, whether leave or remain wins in terms of political

stability? It is a concern to business, because the uncertainty

that has already been created could be perpetuated by the politics after

whatever outcome we see. That said, I think businesses are very used to

working with whatever kind of political environment that they

find, and I think one of the things that they are going to want to try

to do is see as much stability as quickly as possible. Let's assume

Remain wins a narrow victory, will Conservative backbenchers accept

that result, those who have campaigned so vociferously for At?

They have said that the result is the result. And I agree exactly with

Tim, I think he is very right, that the Prime Minister, he is a bigger

man, and it will be a magnanimous and proper reshuffle, which will

reflect all wings of the party. So having Michael Gove sitting in the

Cabinet... I'm sure that will happen, but the most important thing

is that there is a major agenda of social justice reform which the

whole Tory party want to rally behind, and that includes prison

reform, further stuff on education, an allsorts of stuff that we haven't

done well enough on yet, and which need doing. And you will need

support from that, and support from your own site, because there is a

small majority. If one accuses political rivals of being liars,

read Tories, you are talking nonsense, misleading the voters, it

creates a poisonous atmosphere, and you yourself have lost your temper a

couple of times. Could you serve in a party where Eurosceptics were

driving is out of the EU? I lost my temper with Boris when he said

something foolish about my grandfather, but he is a good friend

and I am having dinner with him next week. We are on opposite sides, but

this is not a civil war, it is a disagreement, and I predict to you,

Jo, that the party will come together whatever the result,

because it always does and because it has two. I fixed the problem is

that the Tories do have a narrow majority anyway. Even before the

referendum began, you saw rebellion on tax credits, on disability. The

particular problem isn't the social justice system, which the

Conservative Party can unite behind, it is the unfinished work of deficit

reduction. It is the unfinished work of economic policy. The wisest thing

the Prime Minister will do assuming he hangs on his move George Osborne.

He has become a particular source of disunity. I think he should move to

the Foreign Office, it is in his own long-term interests if he wants to

be leader. Do you agree with that? These are matters for the Prime

Minister. As it so happens, I think George Osborne would be a

first-class Foreign Secretary, I think he has been a first-class

Chancellor. But would he be moved, sacrificed? Some of the great

offices of state will be freed up to allow others to come in, and I think

that is a fact of life. Nicholas Soames, thank you. Thank you.

Now, did I mention that there's a big debate -

a Great Debate, indeed - being broadcast live

from Wembley on BBC One at 8pm this evening?

It's already hosted boxing and wrestling this year,

and Wembley Arena is getting ready for the biggest tussle

In the Remain corner, the Scottish Conservative

leader, Ruth Davidson, the Mayor of London,

Sadiq Khan, and the TUC general secretary, Frances O'Grady.

In the Leave corner, the Labour MP Gisela Stuart,

the energy minister Andrea Leadsom and him.

This is the dressing room that Boris Johnson will be using.

It is surprisingly unglamorous, but in the interests of balance,

I'm reliably informed there will be some snacks on this table

At least there's a mirror with showbiz lights round it.

Then the walk through here, through these doors

Up here on the main stage, the Remainers will be on one side.

The Leavers will make their case on the opposite side.

I think these guys will be finished by then.

David Dimbleby will chair things from here.

Each side will also be able to make an opening and closing statement,

which they will deliver from here to the audience out there.

They're split 50/50 between Leave and Remain,

and unlike a football match, everyone will be sitting

Each section of the debate will start with some questions

from the audience on subjects like immigration or the economy.

This is the second stage, where each campaign will have five

more representatives drawn from the other political

parties and the worlds of business and journalism.

Across the road from the arena is this building,

It seems pretty quiet now, but soon there will be about 200

hacks and spokespeople in here, because it's the spin room.

And because we are scrupulously impartial in this sensitive

political period, at the same time on ITV,

it's Spain versus Croatia, and Channel 4 has a house

Well, Adam obviously enjoying himself. It will be very exciting.

Now, time to find out the answer to our quiz.

The question was which of these moggies wants out?

Of the EU, that is, not just out of the house!

So, Tim and Carolyn, what's the correct answer?

I think it is D. I think it is real grumpy cat. It is in fact the right

answer. Look at that face! What are you saying, you have to be grumpy to

be voting out? I recognise Dan Hammond, and I can't believe he

would have a cat in favour of Britain staying in the EU.

Yes, that's Leave campaigner Dan Hannan with his cat.

Because the fur has been flying on Twitter, with rival sides

in the referendum debate posting pics of their moggies

claiming their feline friends share their own views on the EU.

Kate Bevan and her cat Daphne. They have been supporting the Cats

against Brexit campaign, and James is here with his cat, they are

supporting Cats for Brexit. If you follow her cat flap on Twitter, you

can see her being mostly in other than out, she's burned a lot of time

on the sofa, and she is worried about her cat supplies from the EU.

How do you know that your cat prefers out? My cat is

pro-immigration, she was a rescue cat, and she is internationalist,

she is often seen in the neighbours' Gardens, and she doesn't like the

cage of Fortress Europe as you can see here, she feels that it is

somewhat stacked against in terms of the fat cats who bully her with

stories of recessions in cat food. I wonder how long you have been

preparing these answers and watching their behaviour! What difference

does it make whether we are a night of Europe as opposed to the

contented lives of all the cats I know? Generali, I am in favour of

staying in Europe, because I think there is a lot to be said for free

movement of labour and free movement of cats across garden fences. I can

see the free movement of your cat, who has just wandered off! The crew

will have to look after, look out for her later. I think she cares

about is in the house, and she wants to have a happy house, and we are

excited about Thursday, and I hope she is, to. So do you think the cats

feeling tense atmosphere? Do they react to their owners? I will take

her away from Tim, because I think he is a little allergic. Do they

notice if things are uptight in the house? I'm not so sure. And do she

respond to the atmosphere? She has been an social media making sure

people know where she stands on this thing. She is very clear about it.

She wants plenty of fish coming into the country, no restrictions are

plenty of catnip coming in. In the interest of BBC ballads, will dogs

be featured tomorrow? You can write to the programme editor! Has it

persuaded you at all. I had a long conversation with my cats that

morning about the economic case, and they are definitely in! They

probably ran out! The one o'clock news is starting

over on BBC One now. It has been a ten Mac One Show! I

had to get