21/06/2016 Daily Politics


21/06/2016

Jo Coburn discusses the latest on the EU referendum with Carolyn Fairbairn of the Confederation of British Industry and Tim Montgomerie of The Times.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 21/06/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:40.

David Cameron wants to reduce net migration to less than 100,000

:00:41.:00:43.

So why has his former head of strategy said

:00:44.:00:48.

that the Prime Minister was told four years ago that the promise

:00:49.:00:51.

The man who made millions when Britain tumbled out of the ERM

:00:52.:00:59.

on Black Wednesday's warning that it could be a Black Friday

:01:00.:01:01.

Should we take him seriously or is he just another wealthy

:01:02.:01:05.

Six big-hitting politicians of the main stage, 6,000 Leave

:01:06.:01:13.

and Remain supporters in the audience.

:01:14.:01:16.

Are you ready for the BBC's Great Referendum Debate?

:01:17.:01:21.

The fur is flying on Twitter in a feline face-off.

:01:22.:01:29.

But how do these cats' owners know what they think?

:01:30.:01:39.

With us for the whole of the programme today,

:01:40.:01:49.

Two rivals in the referendum debate but they will not be as voracious as

:01:50.:01:53.

felines, or maybe they will! Times columnist and ex-

:01:54.:01:55.

Conservative Tim Montgomerie, The Confederation of

:01:56.:02:03.

British Industry's first female whose big business members

:02:04.:02:04.

are campaigning to stay in. First this morning, forget

:02:05.:02:07.

the Stadium Municipal in Toulouse, scene of Wales' footballing triumph

:02:08.:02:10.

yesterday, another iconic footballing address will be

:02:11.:02:12.

the scene of great drama tonight. Wembley - the arena not the stadium

:02:13.:02:19.

- is hosting the BBC's Great Debate tonight

:02:20.:02:26.

on BBC One at 8pm. It's the biggest referendum event

:02:27.:02:28.

of the campaign and its compere has taken a break from a busy

:02:29.:02:31.

rehearsal to join us. I am pleased to welcome the

:02:32.:02:41.

masterful David Dimbleby. That is a massive audience, 6000, and you have

:02:42.:02:46.

to keep them under control. I wish it were Wembley Stadium. We could

:02:47.:02:50.

have filled Wembley Stadium ten times over the amount of interest in

:02:51.:02:55.

this debate. Millions of people will be watching. We are in the arena,

:02:56.:03:00.

which is great. I am taking my guitar, I will be singing a ditty,

:03:01.:03:07.

hello, Wembley! We have had weeks and weeks of discussion. What

:03:08.:03:11.

happens in a long campaign is all kinds of detail is gone into but at

:03:12.:03:17.

the end, when people go into the polling booth, it normally focuses

:03:18.:03:24.

on two or three big points. I think tonight the campaigns will focus on

:03:25.:03:29.

those and the audience asking the questions, they will focus on what

:03:30.:03:32.

seemed to be the most important, the visceral feeling that will make

:03:33.:03:37.

people decide whether In or Out is for them. You have a panel of three

:03:38.:03:46.

petitions each side. How will it work? It is carefully worked out

:03:47.:03:54.

between the two sides. The Vote Leave and Remain campaigns have

:03:55.:03:58.

chosen the people, three on each side. There will be an opening

:03:59.:04:04.

statement and closing statement, one minute for each. I think long

:04:05.:04:08.

opening statements in some debates have been tedious. Short statements.

:04:09.:04:16.

In between, those six will debate questions that have been chosen from

:04:17.:04:21.

the audience. Also Michelle Hussain will be there with ten people

:04:22.:04:25.

listening at the back of the stadium, commenting on what they

:04:26.:04:30.

have heard. It should have a good pace. That will work well. And the

:04:31.:04:37.

last 20 minutes, we are in the spin room and hearing reaction from

:04:38.:04:41.

outsiders, politicians, everybody. Two hours, but it is not two long

:04:42.:04:48.

hours of statements. I hope to get a good dialogue running across the

:04:49.:04:53.

stage. That is the plan. It is Wembley, it sounds like a warm up

:04:54.:04:57.

for Glastonbury if you have your guitar. There are two stages. There

:04:58.:05:04.

are three, really. There is me, Michelle Hussain with a gang of

:05:05.:05:10.

people. Empoli outside in the spin room. -- Emily Maitlis. It is not

:05:11.:05:20.

raining. There are train strikes coming out of your ears. I hope

:05:21.:05:28.

people will get here. Before we closed the books we had 20,000

:05:29.:05:33.

people applying. It is fantastic inside. It is a huge stadium with

:05:34.:05:43.

bleachers all around. We are on a big stage. It is bigger and more

:05:44.:05:48.

glamorous than any thing you can imagine. It is better than your set.

:05:49.:05:53.

The bar is low here, I can assure you! You go back to your bigger and

:05:54.:06:03.

better set. Are you happy with the Remain line-up, this close to

:06:04.:06:09.

polling day, would you have liked to have seen the Prime Minister, George

:06:10.:06:13.

Osborne? I think it is a good line-up. We are getting to the final

:06:14.:06:19.

distillation of the argument. To have a line-up that are not

:06:20.:06:24.

necessarily be usual suspects. Francis O'Grady I think will make a

:06:25.:06:30.

terrific case for workers' rights. Ruth Davidson, who presented a

:06:31.:06:35.

strong Remain case. And Sadiq Khan, coming out strong on London and not

:06:36.:06:43.

just London. Does Boris Johnson perform well in this format? I think

:06:44.:06:49.

he does. The Leave side have the same people who appeared on ITV, if

:06:50.:06:53.

I am allowed to mention that. We can name the competitors! Theirs was a

:06:54.:07:00.

smaller event than the BBC! The Leave team, a conservative, Gisela

:07:01.:07:07.

Stuart, Labour, who did a good job two weeks ago. The Leave pudding at

:07:08.:07:16.

the same team. In that debate, people like -- putting out the same

:07:17.:07:23.

team. Boris was disciplined in not responding. I think there was an

:07:24.:07:28.

attempt to provoke Boris. The danger if Remain repeat that it allowed

:07:29.:07:34.

Gisela Stuart and Andrew to make points uninterrupted. People were

:07:35.:07:39.

focused on attacking Boris which allowed the other Leave spokesman to

:07:40.:07:44.

make points more clearly. Ruth Davidson, the Conservative leader in

:07:45.:07:49.

Scotland has been chosen, I think to duff up Boris. She is pugnacious.

:07:50.:07:55.

Interesting. Particularly after the tragedy of last week, an emphasis on

:07:56.:07:59.

personal attacks will not go down well and I hope both sides will

:08:00.:08:04.

emphasise, as Carolyn said, the big closing arguments of the campaign,

:08:05.:08:09.

so we have substance rather than pettiness. What about changing

:08:10.:08:12.

minds? People are still saying they do not know or their minds could be

:08:13.:08:18.

changed. How important is it in that regard? Really important. I think if

:08:19.:08:28.

we can get away... If in this last week people can get back to core

:08:29.:08:34.

arguments around the economy, arguments around immigration,

:08:35.:08:36.

sovereignty, if they can be brought together in a simple and straight

:08:37.:08:42.

forward and honest way, I think it could be compelling for people to

:08:43.:08:47.

make their final minds up. There I say it, because we are on our show,

:08:48.:08:55.

is there anything left to say? We had this great debate and you want

:08:56.:09:01.

to ram home the messages of both campaigns, is there anything new to

:09:02.:09:05.

say? I do not think there is anything new to say but there are

:09:06.:09:10.

undecided people. It seems to be a diminishing number. It might be ten

:09:11.:09:16.

or 15%. It could swing a result. My feeling is if you ask people whether

:09:17.:09:20.

they would join the European Union if we were not already members, the

:09:21.:09:26.

pollsters find overwhelmingly not. People are frightened of leaving

:09:27.:09:31.

because of scare stories put out by the business community and by the

:09:32.:09:34.

Prime Minister, it is almost an emotional thing now. Do people

:09:35.:09:40.

believe enough in Britain's ability to survive outside of the EU? If

:09:41.:09:45.

people want facts there are only a certain number of facts. It is an

:09:46.:09:51.

element of faith now. Will it be heart rather than head? I think it

:09:52.:09:56.

will be a mixture of the two and what is coming through strongly is

:09:57.:10:01.

the sense of opportunities and benefits for the economy of being in

:10:02.:10:06.

the EU. I am pleased that we have begun to see more about positive

:10:07.:10:11.

arguments, the fact we are on the verge of a digital single market

:10:12.:10:15.

with Vodafone talking about the advantages and smaller businesses.

:10:16.:10:19.

The services economy and that opportunity. I think there is an

:10:20.:10:24.

opportunity for positive economic arguments around jobs, prosperity,

:10:25.:10:27.

that can come through. The question for today is which of

:10:28.:10:31.

these cats supports Brexit? At the end of the show,

:10:32.:10:35.

Tim and Carolyn will give Now - the Conservatives' 2010

:10:36.:10:47.

election campaign promised to reduce net migration

:10:48.:10:57.

to the tens of thousands. in a Coalition Government,

:10:58.:11:04.

at last year's election the Conservatives AGAIN included

:11:05.:11:10.

the commitment in their manifesto. But now Steve Hilton -

:11:11.:11:12.

who is the the former director of strategy at Downing Street -

:11:13.:11:15.

has said that officials told them back in 2012 that the commitment

:11:16.:11:17.

was unachievable if we stayed This question of immigration

:11:18.:11:20.

in this referendum isn't about whether you want lower

:11:21.:11:23.

immigration or higher immigration. It's about whether the government

:11:24.:11:25.

that people elect in this And when I was working

:11:26.:11:28.

in government, we were told by officials that as long

:11:29.:11:33.

as we are in the EU, we couldn't And that's why I think we need

:11:34.:11:36.

to leave the EU. And David Cameron was asked

:11:37.:11:43.

about Steve Hilton's claim by Lorraine Kelly on ITV this

:11:44.:11:45.

morning. It had fallen quite substantially

:11:46.:12:06.

and it had got to not far away from the ambition I set. There are good

:12:07.:12:11.

ways of controlling immigration. People who work here have to work

:12:12.:12:15.

four years before getting full access to the welfare system. But

:12:16.:12:20.

pulling out of the single market, wrecking our economy, that is a bad

:12:21.:12:21.

way. Are you surprised to hear Steve

:12:22.:12:28.

Hilton being prominent in the closing weeks in this campaign,

:12:29.:12:32.

particularly with the claim that civil servants told number 10 when

:12:33.:12:36.

he was there it was not achievable to bring net migration down to tens

:12:37.:12:40.

of thousands if the UK stayed in the EU? I am not surprised. I talked to

:12:41.:12:45.

Steve when he worked for the Prime Minister and was very frustrated

:12:46.:12:49.

them by the amount of paperwork that came across his desk from the

:12:50.:12:53.

European Union. He had a colour-coded system, the stuff that

:12:54.:12:57.

came from the Coalition Government, the stuff from Europe and the stuff

:12:58.:13:02.

from the civil service and he said the biggest pile was the stuff

:13:03.:13:06.

Europe generated, an illustration of how much we are governed by the EU,

:13:07.:13:13.

and I think he is right saying as long as we are part of the EU, we do

:13:14.:13:19.

not know if immigration is 330 thousand net, 555,000 next year. We

:13:20.:13:26.

have no mechanism to control it and if we have no mechanism to control

:13:27.:13:31.

it, we cannot plan for its impact on hospitals and schools and the

:13:32.:13:36.

housing market. Was it a mistake to continue to make the pledge to

:13:37.:13:40.

reduce net migration to tens of thousands when you cannot control at

:13:41.:13:47.

least half? It is a political choice and I have to say it is one the

:13:48.:13:51.

business community has always thought is a challenging thing. You

:13:52.:13:55.

cannot control the number of people who leave and so it would always be

:13:56.:14:00.

challenging, and it means there has been a focus on the control of this

:14:01.:14:04.

number rather than what is in the best interests of jobs, the economy.

:14:05.:14:10.

I think we would be entirely happy if there was not a net migration

:14:11.:14:15.

number. This is one of the big gaps. The business wants cheap labour.

:14:16.:14:19.

They want imported cheap labour from all over Europe because it keeps

:14:20.:14:24.

costs down. Quite a lot of the Leave side want high immigration. We have

:14:25.:14:28.

heard from Michael Gove and Boris Johnson. It is important we have

:14:29.:14:35.

immigration. We need certain people for hospitals, we need highly

:14:36.:14:39.

skilled people. If we are in control, we know the next year we

:14:40.:14:43.

will get to a certain amount, we can adjusted accordingly, but the

:14:44.:14:48.

problem at the moment, because we have no control over immigration

:14:49.:14:51.

from the rest of Europe, we can have big swings that great big pressures.

:14:52.:15:01.

What about cheap labour, unskilled workers? That is not right. Be

:15:02.:15:07.

honest. A lot of the opportunities, we have had huge skill shortages

:15:08.:15:11.

across the country. In the West Midlands they have a shortage of

:15:12.:15:16.

engineers. This has been one way we have been able to continue to grow.

:15:17.:15:22.

I recognise and members recognise this causes challenges in some parts

:15:23.:15:27.

and do not under estimate that. But the solutions are not enclosing our

:15:28.:15:34.

borders. Wouldn't it be better if we could pick and choose, which we

:15:35.:15:35.

could do if we had control? One of the things that we forget

:15:36.:15:44.

that this is a benefit to our people here. Answer the question I asked

:15:45.:15:48.

rather than changing the subject. It is an important point. In the 1980s,

:15:49.:15:53.

when our economy was growing less quickly, and the German economy was

:15:54.:16:02.

growing well, we had our feeders then, pet, young people going over

:16:03.:16:06.

to Germany to work, and it was a great opportunity. Young people love

:16:07.:16:13.

the idea that they could go and work abroad, and that is a reciprocal

:16:14.:16:17.

idea. At the moment it is going in one direction, but it could go in

:16:18.:16:21.

the other. We will talk about immigration are little later. To

:16:22.:16:23.

come back to the central point that Steve Hilton was making, they were

:16:24.:16:27.

warned that it wasn't possible. Steve Hilton has also said, and

:16:28.:16:32.

Michael Gove today, he assumed the Prime Minister would negotiate a

:16:33.:16:35.

better deal around this issue of freedom of movement. You think that

:16:36.:16:39.

is also what happened at the time, that they assumed they would be able

:16:40.:16:43.

to do something ahead of the referendum, and the Prime Minister

:16:44.:16:49.

says they have? There was an a real belief in Downing Street that they

:16:50.:16:54.

would get this emergency brake, they said, give us something if numbers

:16:55.:16:58.

released at a rocket, we could turn the tap off, because you talk to the

:16:59.:17:03.

New Zealand or Australia Prime Minister is, they have much higher

:17:04.:17:07.

levels of immigration, but it is not a political issue, and their

:17:08.:17:11.

explanation for that is that at any time, they can turn off the tap,

:17:12.:17:15.

they have control. I did think the British people are not generous,

:17:16.:17:18.

they understand the points that Carolyn make, they need certain

:17:19.:17:24.

levels of skilled labour. But when Germany so ruthlessly and

:17:25.:17:27.

uncompromisingly said you can't have anything at all, that gave us an

:17:28.:17:31.

illustration really of Europe's unwillingness to even give, when we

:17:32.:17:35.

had to the head of the referendum, Europe is not in a mood for

:17:36.:17:38.

compromise, not in a move try to help Britain out, which is one of

:17:39.:17:42.

the reasons why we are better out of the club. Were you surprised that

:17:43.:17:46.

there was not as much corporation from countries like Germany and

:17:47.:17:49.

France over this issue of trying to control the flow of freedom of

:17:50.:17:53.

movement? I think there is a really important thing at the heart of all

:17:54.:17:55.

of this, this is what the single market involves. And that is going

:17:56.:17:59.

to be one of the core choices for the British public on Thursday. It

:18:00.:18:04.

is part of being a member of the single market, and the benefits of

:18:05.:18:08.

that, we believe, are really significant. It is part of that,

:18:09.:18:13.

that idea of free movement, that is at the heart of this choice. All

:18:14.:18:15.

right. Alongside immigration, the other

:18:16.:18:18.

battle today is the economy. Some of the biggest names

:18:19.:18:23.

on the high street are today warning that families will face higher

:18:24.:18:26.

prices if we leave the EU. Former bosses of Tesco, Sainsbury's,

:18:27.:18:29.

Marks Spencer, Asda, Waitrose and Morrisons have all said

:18:30.:18:31.

the rising costs of the weekly shop would be "catastrophic

:18:32.:18:34.

for ordinary families". Their letter came as retail worker

:18:35.:18:38.

union Usdaw suggested that workers would be ?580 worse off if Britain

:18:39.:18:42.

left the EU due to a hit on sterling But economists for Brexit countered

:18:43.:18:46.

with a warning that unskilled EU migrants cost each taxpayer

:18:47.:18:54.

on average ?17.75 per month. They base this on a family of four

:18:55.:19:01.

costing ?29,225 in tax credits, housing and child benefit

:19:02.:19:06.

and the cost of education They say single unskilled workers

:19:07.:19:08.

cost ?849 each year. Meanwhile, financier

:19:09.:19:17.

George Soros, who made a fortune betting against the pound

:19:18.:19:21.

on Black Wednesday, said sterling would "decline precipitously"

:19:22.:19:23.

if Leave win this week. But Unite boss Len McCluskey,

:19:24.:19:28.

despite backing Remain, said that EU immigration has led

:19:29.:19:30.

to "sustained pressure on living standards"

:19:31.:19:33.

at the "expense" of British workers. Well, we can now talk to our guest,

:19:34.:19:52.

he is in Cardiff, Patrick Minford. Your report today says on skilled

:19:53.:19:56.

immigrants cost ?6.6 billion per year, but this is based on families

:19:57.:20:00.

of four with a stay at home mother. Do you know many families of four on

:20:01.:20:05.

skilled migrants with stay at home mums in the UK? The basic point is

:20:06.:20:13.

that it costs the best part of ?30,000 for that particular family

:20:14.:20:17.

type, if an unskilled worker brings in the rest of the family and he has

:20:18.:20:22.

two kids, ages 30 grand. Of course it can be less, it can be more. The

:20:23.:20:27.

whole point is that if you are an unskilled worker, you don't pay much

:20:28.:20:31.

tax, and you often get tax credits. If you have a family, you get a lot

:20:32.:20:35.

of tax credits, say your contribution to the Exchequer is

:20:36.:20:39.

probably negative, and then you impose the costs of health,

:20:40.:20:45.

education and housing on us, the other taxpayers, and of course

:20:46.:20:48.

particularly on the local communities who have to endure these

:20:49.:20:50.

costs locally rather than nationally. So it is very easy for

:20:51.:20:55.

the rest of us to say, it is very nice to have cheap labour and so on.

:20:56.:21:00.

The costs are borne by the local communities, which is why they are

:21:01.:21:03.

angry. But it is your figures that we are looking at. You seem to be

:21:04.:21:07.

saying you based the figures, the number of unskilled migrant

:21:08.:21:11.

families, on the UK average household composition. Most people

:21:12.:21:14.

would agree that the two are not the parable. We don't know exactly,

:21:15.:21:19.

unfortunately. So why have you used it as an illustrative figure? We

:21:20.:21:29.

have 28% single and the rest are family. The number can be smaller or

:21:30.:21:33.

larger. Under the fact of our welfare system, you get much more

:21:34.:21:37.

than you pay in. If you had a family of one kid, it would be the same. If

:21:38.:21:44.

you have a family, if you only have one and a nonworking mother, you get

:21:45.:21:48.

tax credits. That is the point, the facts of our welfare system. The

:21:49.:21:53.

basic point, Jo, is that if you have a welfare system, you act as a

:21:54.:21:58.

magnet for unskilled workers. If you also have a high level employment,

:21:59.:22:02.

followed by Matt on an economy doing well when the rest of Europe is

:22:03.:22:09.

doing badly. So you are assuming that three quarters of farm workers

:22:10.:22:14.

and labourers come here with their partners and children, whereas on

:22:15.:22:24.

skilled migrants are usually young. You really saying they cost our

:22:25.:22:31.

health service every year. There is a indeed, there is childbirth, if

:22:32.:22:38.

you have kids... The whole point is we don't really exactly, but what we

:22:39.:22:41.

do know is that this welfare state, and this is why of course Australia

:22:42.:22:45.

has a green card system, and it doesn't let in unskilled workers, or

:22:46.:22:50.

if they do let unskilled workers, they'd let them in with dependents,

:22:51.:22:53.

because they cost so much to the welfare state. This is the

:22:54.:22:57.

fundamental point, and that is why we could get lots of lots of

:22:58.:23:01.

unskilled workers. And there is a further point, that they put a

:23:02.:23:04.

depressing effect on the local wage on the local economy, which again is

:23:05.:23:09.

a factor that is very unpopular, naturally, with the people in those

:23:10.:23:12.

areas. Say you have a package that is damaging to poor people, and is

:23:13.:23:18.

not damaging to richer people and those with privilege. Lets get your

:23:19.:23:24.

response, Carolyn, because one of the things Patrick Minford is saying

:23:25.:23:28.

is that they are not paying in as much as they are taking at, browse

:23:29.:23:32.

the overall contribution the country from EU migrants according to a lot

:23:33.:23:35.

of studies, certainly in taxes paid, is greater than the amount taken at.

:23:36.:23:40.

Where I agree with Patrick is that there are local issues, and we

:23:41.:23:44.

accept that. But this is highly misleading analysis in terms of the

:23:45.:23:49.

kind of natural family composition. We know from experience that it is

:23:50.:23:54.

not a family of four that is the typical model here, and studies have

:23:55.:23:58.

shown that the net contribution is around about ?2.5 billion overall,

:23:59.:24:01.

so these are highly misleading figures. The other thing I would

:24:02.:24:05.

like to pick up on this this point about the depressing of wages. There

:24:06.:24:09.

has been a very detailed Bank of England study done at the end of

:24:10.:24:11.

last year that pulled together all of the different research on this.

:24:12.:24:16.

They concluded that the impact on immigration and wages was

:24:17.:24:22.

negligible, and close to zero. So I have to say, this is not helping or

:24:23.:24:25.

adding or clarifying this important debate at all. Patrick Minford, can

:24:26.:24:30.

I just say, low skilled British people should be more worried by the

:24:31.:24:37.

claims of the supermarket bosses that leaving the EU would cause

:24:38.:24:46.

supermarket prices to rise, rather than having their wages depressed.

:24:47.:24:51.

If you go to free trade and have competition in the supermarket to

:24:52.:24:54.

get rid of the common agricultural policy and the protectionist

:24:55.:24:57.

policies of the EU, you will bring prices down massively. What they are

:24:58.:25:02.

talking about is a temporary effect on the exchange rate of the way the

:25:03.:25:06.

economy reacts to Brexit, which is a completely different matter. And so

:25:07.:25:10.

if they look in terms of the living standards of people after the

:25:11.:25:15.

adjustment has come through, they go up. And that is what they have done,

:25:16.:25:20.

they have just said, they have assumed, like George Soros, a big

:25:21.:25:25.

policy uncertainty effect on the exchange rate, which is temporary,

:25:26.:25:29.

and the exchange rate will simply stabilise the economy like it did

:25:30.:25:32.

after we left the exchange rate mechanism. Are you worried about

:25:33.:25:36.

that, Tim Montgomerie? George Torres is worried about the Sterling

:25:37.:25:41.

falling precipitously. That would have a dramatic effect even in the

:25:42.:25:45.

short term. I was at the Bank of England, I had just joined them at

:25:46.:25:49.

the time of the week fell out of the exchange rate mechanism, and you

:25:50.:25:52.

talk about black Wednesday and Black Friday. A lot of us remember it as

:25:53.:25:58.

White Wednesday, the day a 14 year economic recovery began. There will

:25:59.:26:06.

be some uncertainty. But you don't think that is important in and of

:26:07.:26:12.

itself? The economy has automatic stabilisers, and a small downward

:26:13.:26:15.

movement in the pound would help exporters you're in that period. We

:26:16.:26:19.

don't have an inflation problem at the moment, in fact we have some

:26:20.:26:23.

risk of deviation, so a more competitive pound would suit the UK

:26:24.:26:27.

economy very well for a period, and once our trade arrangements are

:26:28.:26:31.

stabilised, we can go back to a more normal situation. Do you agree with

:26:32.:26:36.

that assessment? There are two things here. In terms of the

:26:37.:26:39.

immediate effect on the pound, I think that we can all be, there will

:26:40.:26:48.

be a pound fall,... Will it be as dramatic as George Soros said, 15%?

:26:49.:26:56.

Other areas are forecasting something similar. But the other

:26:57.:27:01.

area is what we might expect in terms of longer-term tariffs and the

:27:02.:27:05.

effect on prices. The leave campaign is now talking about falling out of

:27:06.:27:09.

the single market and facing WTO type tariffs, and that would

:27:10.:27:12.

increase prices in the long run, and I have talked to a lot of businesses

:27:13.:27:17.

who are concerned about the effects of tariffs on prices and what that

:27:18.:27:22.

would do. Given that you previously said that we shouldn't be scared if

:27:23.:27:26.

manufacturing is eliminated if we leave the EU, concentrated on other

:27:27.:27:32.

industries, why should any low paid worker trust you to have their

:27:33.:27:37.

interests at heart? That is a misquote, as you know very well.

:27:38.:27:42.

What I have said is that manufacturing that is unable to

:27:43.:27:46.

compete in the globalised world would be eliminated. I made it quite

:27:47.:27:49.

clear that high-tech manufacturing would thrive, and that is what we

:27:50.:27:55.

are looking for. Our car industry raises productivity, it already

:27:56.:27:58.

sells two thirds of his exports to the world market, and half of our

:27:59.:28:02.

exports overall go to the world market. Manufacturing can compete.

:28:03.:28:06.

It goes upmarket, that is how it works. And what in fact Carolyn

:28:07.:28:11.

misrepresented is, as they always have on this issue, we're talking

:28:12.:28:15.

about eliminating tariffs on our imports, which has a massive effect

:28:16.:28:19.

on the welfare of consumers here, and is the dynamic for the economy.

:28:20.:28:24.

And as for those tariffs on our exports Big E you may or may not

:28:25.:28:31.

slap on, -- that the EU may or may not slap on, and big companies will

:28:32.:28:35.

do it because they don't like the effects of their car experts, but we

:28:36.:28:41.

will get a competitive economy, and manufacturers who are worth their

:28:42.:28:44.

salt will welcome the contribution to raise their game. You said we

:28:45.:28:52.

misquoted you. You did say over time that we would mostly eliminate

:28:53.:28:56.

manufacturing if we left the EU, leaving mostly designed... I'm

:28:57.:29:03.

sorry, if you read more than one sentence, I made it perfectly clear

:29:04.:29:07.

that the hi tech was accepted, and the way in which manufacturing

:29:08.:29:10.

adjusts is through going up in value. That is how the CBI's members

:29:11.:29:16.

have adjusted, that is how the kindest is a world markets. You are

:29:17.:29:21.

talking in a very negative as narrow-minded way. I was trying to

:29:22.:29:25.

raise our eyes to the idea of global competition across our economy to

:29:26.:29:29.

the enormous benefit of our consumers, and we can perfectly well

:29:30.:29:33.

help our manufacturers over this rough patch where they have actually

:29:34.:29:38.

got to face global competition in their home market as well, and why

:29:39.:29:43.

not? Let be put back to Tim McGarry. Do you think people working in

:29:44.:29:46.

manufacturing and other low paid workers should listen to Patrick

:29:47.:29:50.

Minford over Carolyn Fairburn when it comes to talking about their

:29:51.:29:53.

jobs, long-term prosperity and the future? I think they should listen

:29:54.:29:59.

to everybody... That is very diplomatic! And they should also

:30:00.:30:05.

listen to James Dyson, one of our most successful inventors, or

:30:06.:30:07.

Anthony Bamford, head of JCB, Europe's largest construction

:30:08.:30:12.

manufacturer. Lots of businesses, small businesses, big visitors do

:30:13.:30:16.

very well out of the EU, partly because of the cheap labour. Small

:30:17.:30:22.

businesses who don't trade with the EU still have to put up with a lot

:30:23.:30:29.

of the EU regulations. Let me just answer that and then you can come

:30:30.:30:30.

back. This is not true, we have many small

:30:31.:30:40.

members who want to stay. A lot of what you talk about is product

:30:41.:30:45.

standardisation. A cheese manufacturer in Somerset to benefits

:30:46.:30:48.

from the standardisation in standards and packaging, many

:30:49.:30:52.

companies like that. The idea it is all about big business is wrong and

:30:53.:31:02.

it is not borne out... The great opportunity of leaving the EU is

:31:03.:31:06.

nine tenths of growth in exports is with the rest of the world. Europe

:31:07.:31:13.

is a declining part. It is declining twice as fast as America, an

:31:14.:31:20.

equivalent advanced... It is about half and half at the moment. Europe

:31:21.:31:26.

is losing its share. Because it is 28 member states, cannot agree on

:31:27.:31:32.

how to solve the Euro crisis, the refugee... It could not agree trade

:31:33.:31:36.

agreements with China or other parts of the fast-growing world. On our

:31:37.:31:41.

own, able to move in a nimble way, we consign those agreements with the

:31:42.:31:43.

emerging world. MPs and peers gathered

:31:44.:31:45.

in Westminster yesterday for a special recall of Parliament

:31:46.:31:48.

to remember the MP Jo Cox, who was brutally murdered

:31:49.:31:51.

in her constituency of Batley It was an extraordinary occasion

:31:52.:31:53.

with heartfelt tributes from politicians on all sides

:31:54.:32:00.

and a very emotional one for those We have lost one of our own,

:32:01.:32:03.

and our society as a whole has lost We need, Mr Speaker,

:32:04.:32:11.

a kinder and gentler politics. This is not a factional

:32:12.:32:17.

party political point. We all have a responsibility in this

:32:18.:32:24.

House - and beyond - not to whip up Jo was a humanitarian to her core,

:32:25.:32:28.

a passionate and brilliant campaigner whose grit

:32:29.:32:36.

and determination to fight for justice saw her time and time

:32:37.:32:40.

again driving issues up the agenda and making people listen,

:32:41.:32:44.

and above all, act. Quite simply, there are people

:32:45.:32:47.

on our planet today who are only Jo had a way with people,

:32:48.:32:52.

a way of relating to people from all walks of life,

:32:53.:33:00.

and she had a real Jo wanted to make the world fairer,

:33:01.:33:03.

more equal, more tolerant We all have better instincts

:33:04.:33:08.

and deepest fears. Jo appealed to our better instincts,

:33:09.:33:14.

our sense that, as she said in her maiden speech,

:33:15.:33:18.

what we have in common is greater Making common cause with a crusty

:33:19.:33:21.

old Tory, she and I became co-chairs She was the heart and soul of these

:33:22.:33:29.

benches, and we are heartbroken. We loved her every day,

:33:30.:33:38.

and we will miss her every day. She inspired us all,

:33:39.:33:42.

and I swear that we will do everything in our power to make her

:33:43.:33:46.

and her family incredibly proud. There was no dividing line

:33:47.:33:52.

between Jo's maternal heart Her children will grow up

:33:53.:33:54.

to know what an amazing She is such a great

:33:55.:34:01.

loss to our politics, an irreplaceable loss

:34:02.:34:07.

to her family, to whom we send She was always passionate

:34:08.:34:09.

about the issues she cared about, never afraid to stand up for those

:34:10.:34:17.

she felt had no voice, but she was also a proud Yorkshire

:34:18.:34:22.

woman, and our county Mr Speaker, the fearless

:34:23.:34:25.

Jo Cox never stopped She gave voice to the voiceless,

:34:26.:34:31.

she spoke truth to power. She exemplified the best values

:34:32.:34:39.

of our party and of our country, compassion, community,

:34:40.:34:43.

solidarity and internationalism. And she put her convictions to work

:34:44.:34:48.

for everyone she touched. For the people of Batley and Spen,

:34:49.:34:52.

for the wretched of Syria, for victims of violence

:34:53.:34:55.

and injustice everywhere. Spontaneous applause at the end of

:34:56.:35:15.

those heartfelt tributes from MPs following the brutal and tragic

:35:16.:35:16.

murder of the MP Jo Cox last week. Much of the referendum debate has

:35:17.:35:20.

centred on whether it's possible to control immigration whilst

:35:21.:35:23.

remaining a member Here is the Labour leader Jeremy

:35:24.:35:34.

Corbyn on Sunday responding to a question from the BBC's Andrew Marr

:35:35.:35:38.

about whether he thought they should be any upper limit on migration to

:35:39.:35:40.

this country. I don't think you can have one

:35:41.:35:41.

while you have a free movement of labour and I think the free

:35:42.:35:44.

movement of labour means that you have to balance the economy

:35:45.:35:47.

so you have to improve living So that means the European Union's

:35:48.:35:50.

appalling treatment of Greece, particularly the European Central

:35:51.:35:54.

Bank, as well as the European Union, If you actually deliberately lower

:35:55.:35:57.

living standards and increase poverty in certain countries

:35:58.:36:03.

in south-east or Eastern Europe, then you're bound to have a flow

:36:04.:36:07.

of people looking for somewhere Surely the issue is

:36:08.:36:10.

an anti-austerity, a growth package Now, that was seen as a gaffe

:36:11.:36:14.

by some observers - a Remain campaigner appearing

:36:15.:36:22.

to admit that immigration could not But what if you don't believe

:36:23.:36:24.

in controlling immigration and that Well, the Anglican priest

:36:25.:36:29.

and commentator Giles Fraser Tim Montgomerie has said that

:36:30.:36:34.

controlling immigration is the most important

:36:35.:36:38.

issue in the referendum. Both are in favour

:36:39.:36:40.

of leaving the EU. Tim Montgomerie, Giles Frazer Wright

:36:41.:36:53.

is critically, in this era of advance globalisation we believe in

:36:54.:36:57.

free trade, free movement of goods that not in the free movement of

:36:58.:37:01.

labour. That describes you. Why does your liberalism stop at national

:37:02.:37:07.

borders? Because it is about managing situations. I am sure Giles

:37:08.:37:13.

would not necessarily except one, two million, 3 million people coming

:37:14.:37:17.

into Britain at one point because it would overwhelm public services and

:37:18.:37:22.

communities. We should be a country that welcomes refugees and is open

:37:23.:37:28.

to humanitarian responsibilities. People are confident about playing

:37:29.:37:32.

the humanitarian role if they know the government of not letting in

:37:33.:37:36.

undesirables, that they monitor refugees, could not be including

:37:37.:37:46.

terrorists for example. Should there be an upper limit? I am not

:37:47.:37:50.

convinced there should be. It would take 3 million? I do not think that

:37:51.:37:55.

will happen, it is a fantasy figure will stop I think that is

:37:56.:38:00.

scaremongering. We have not had this obsession with borders in this

:38:01.:38:07.

country, it is only 100 years since we had immigration controls, which

:38:08.:38:10.

we started having because people were terrified of the amount of

:38:11.:38:13.

Jewish people coming to this country, that is how it started.

:38:14.:38:18.

There is a racist element about border controls, as there was then

:38:19.:38:24.

and as there is now. A lot of the fear is that there will be the other

:38:25.:38:31.

who will come to swamp us. I think it is a fantasy. You believe that

:38:32.:38:37.

people like Tim Montgomerie who say they should be managed, our races? I

:38:38.:38:42.

think Tim is right about this, we should be in control of our borders.

:38:43.:38:51.

I think... I want to make the case we should be in control of them and

:38:52.:38:54.

it should be democratically decided and we should be... I may be an

:38:55.:39:02.

extremist on this, but we could be more generous than now and we should

:39:03.:39:06.

be generous particularly to people from outside the EU. The EU itself

:39:07.:39:11.

is shockingly bad on migrants and migration. That is where I agreed.

:39:12.:39:15.

Would you like to see greater numbers, perhaps equal numbers,

:39:16.:39:23.

equal numbers in hundreds of thousands of people from outside the

:39:24.:39:26.

EU? I will not say whether it is equal or not but where I agree with

:39:27.:39:33.

Giles, I think he might live in fantasies land on his general

:39:34.:39:37.

position but an Indian, Australian, South African, should not have

:39:38.:39:41.

second-class status when it comes to entering Britain compared to a

:39:42.:39:44.

French or German person. The problem is not little England, but European.

:39:45.:39:55.

It has become inward looking as a continent. As Giles said, border

:39:56.:40:02.

controls have always been racist, going back to the 30s, not allowing

:40:03.:40:08.

Jewish people escaping Germany. With all due respect... You know when

:40:09.:40:13.

someone says that... Accusing people who worry about immigration of

:40:14.:40:17.

racism, of course there is some races and it is unfair, opinion

:40:18.:40:22.

polls, every ethnic minority community of Britain is opposed to

:40:23.:40:26.

large-scale immigration. It is not about the colour of the skin or

:40:27.:40:29.

religion of the immigrant, it is about the scale. You are one of

:40:30.:40:37.

those people who floats around the world on your passport because you

:40:38.:40:40.

are back and forth. Borders mean nothing to you because you are

:40:41.:40:49.

wealthy enough. African farmers, people in poor countries, for whom

:40:50.:40:53.

borders mean something, Syrian, they mean nothing to us. There is

:40:54.:40:59.

definitely... It is about penning the poor people into poverty. What

:41:00.:41:04.

about community cohesion, that must be something you worry about. There

:41:05.:41:09.

are risks outlined by some people that if you don't have it managed,

:41:10.:41:15.

you will need a breakdown. What has happened in the referendum is a

:41:16.:41:20.

classic example. There is a large group of people who feel completely

:41:21.:41:24.

they have not been listened to and they are not attended to and they

:41:25.:41:28.

are readily exploited by those who want to go... This is all about this

:41:29.:41:38.

scary other immigrant. I think their anxiety is more about jobs, housing,

:41:39.:41:42.

the real thing is for people. I think people in this country are not

:41:43.:41:46.

concerned about the colour of the skin about the person living next

:41:47.:41:50.

door to them. So they are not racist, you have contradicted

:41:51.:41:56.

yourself? I think the idea we have to insist on our borders, there is

:41:57.:42:00.

something racist about that, that we have to build up a moat. I do not

:42:01.:42:07.

think British people are racist, I think that this is being exploited

:42:08.:42:13.

by people like Nigel Farage, there is a genuine feeling of anger that

:42:14.:42:22.

people have not been listened to which is being exploited and changed

:42:23.:42:26.

and shifted in this debate over the referendum. If you think it is a key

:42:27.:42:30.

issue, immigration. The polls seem to bear that out. You think on

:42:31.:42:36.

balance when it is stood alongside the economy and the value of the

:42:37.:42:41.

muddy in people'spocket, that will trump issues of immigration -- value

:42:42.:42:49.

of money. People can see both sides of the economic debate is balance.

:42:50.:42:52.

There are costs of leaving the single market. I also think they can

:42:53.:43:00.

see the advantages of having better connections with fast-growing parts

:43:01.:43:02.

of the world. The economic argument is muddy for people. But there

:43:03.:43:11.

of the world. The economic argument only one way we can get control of

:43:12.:43:13.

borders and that is to leave the EU. That is one big factor in this

:43:14.:43:18.

debate in a debate with few facts. If we have that control, Giles can

:43:19.:43:22.

stand on his manifesto of letting anybody in and I will stand on mine

:43:23.:43:28.

of controlling. We could see who could get more votes. We will do

:43:29.:43:33.

of controlling. We could see who that! If you are in a position of

:43:34.:43:37.

principal about this. I am flagging up a principle and these principles

:43:38.:43:42.

the west has had. Look on the Statue of Liberty and the moving quote,

:43:43.:43:50.

bring me your huddled masses. No one is living up to that because they

:43:51.:43:54.

are building a fence around it to stop Mexicans coming in. What about

:43:55.:43:59.

the tone, has it been what you would like to hear on the immigration

:44:00.:44:05.

debate? No. All sides of this debate in different ways have sometimes let

:44:06.:44:12.

themselves down. I think the Nigel Farage poster that has been

:44:13.:44:18.

controversial was not acceptable. It was not factual. It portrayed dark

:44:19.:44:22.

skinned people trying to get into Britain when they were not even

:44:23.:44:27.

trying to get into Europe. It was not acceptable, that aspect of the

:44:28.:44:33.

debate. Just because the poster ad Nigel Farage has behaved

:44:34.:44:40.

inappropriately, it does not mean working-class communities seeing

:44:41.:44:44.

their wages depressed, that is not racist, it is a reasonable concern

:44:45.:44:47.

about immigration's impact on local economies.

:44:48.:44:54.

Giles Fraser, thank you for coming in.

:44:55.:44:57.

Now, there's been name calling, furious briefing

:44:58.:44:59.

So can the Tory party put itself back together

:45:00.:45:02.

after Thursday's referendum - and how?

:45:03.:45:03.

In a moment, we'll be joined by the leading

:45:04.:45:06.

Conservative Remain campaigner, who's being making his case forcibly

:45:07.:45:12.

on social media - Nicholas Soames - first here's a little reminder

:45:13.:45:15.

of the less obliging things Conservatives have

:45:16.:45:17.

I think the strain of the campaign is

:45:18.:45:22.

Lord Heseltine is a frightful old humbug who divided

:45:23.:45:26.

the Conservative Party more than anybody else in our modern

:45:27.:45:29.

history, and a period of silence on his part would be welcome.

:45:30.:45:32.

I must say, it is always good to hear voices from the past.

:45:33.:45:35.

I'd be grateful if they remained in the past.

:45:36.:45:37.

Well, he's the life and soul of the party.

:45:38.:45:46.

But he's not the man you want driving you home

:45:47.:45:48.

The Chancellor bascially needs to calm down and regrettably

:45:49.:45:55.

When I heard that, I did think of Pinocchio and the nose

:45:56.:46:02.

Unfortunately, those of us at the outset with that very

:46:03.:46:10.

clear, inclusive, moderate vision for Brexit have, over time,

:46:11.:46:15.

been taken over by a message which is divisive,

:46:16.:46:17.

which is inward-looking, which is xenophobic.

:46:18.:46:18.

Well, Nicholas Soames is with us here. There are two letters

:46:19.:46:38.

circulating in Tory circles that have been reported, one calling for

:46:39.:46:41.

a vote of no-confidence in David Cameron's leadership. Are the people

:46:42.:46:46.

who have signed it treacherous? I think it is up to them whether they

:46:47.:46:51.

signed a letter or not. It is not something I would personally do, and

:46:52.:46:55.

I think it is very unhelpful, and as we have no idea how matters will

:46:56.:46:59.

turnout, I think it is a foolish thing to do, but it is well known

:47:00.:47:05.

that there are people who have had it in the David Cameron since the

:47:06.:47:08.

day he was elected. My colleague Nadine Dorries put her objection

:47:09.:47:19.

into the Prime Minister within a week of

:47:20.:47:27.

him being in government. I am a fan of the Prime Minister, and he has

:47:28.:47:30.

already announced he will leave before the next election, so what is

:47:31.:47:36.

the point? There is another letter saying that the Prime Minister must

:47:37.:47:41.

stay in situ, but it does indicate the bad blood that is running

:47:42.:47:46.

through the Conservative Party? I am an agnostic on this, because I think

:47:47.:47:51.

there is a bad blood, a bit of bad blood, but by and large, this has

:47:52.:47:58.

not been as bad as Maastricht. You don't think it is as bad? That was a

:47:59.:48:04.

matter for the House of Commons. This is a fundamental disagreement

:48:05.:48:07.

throughout the country. This isn't just in the House of Commons. OK,

:48:08.:48:12.

there is some bad blood around, but it is not blood that is bad enough

:48:13.:48:17.

for us not to come together on a big agenda. Do you agree with that? I

:48:18.:48:21.

don't think John Major has ever really forgiven Iain Duncan Smith as

:48:22.:48:26.

example of post Maastricht relations. Do you think this will

:48:27.:48:32.

really change whatever the result? I don't think it will be easy, because

:48:33.:48:36.

this has been a massive national debate, but one of the advantages

:48:37.:48:41.

the Conservative Party has, Conservative minded people like me

:48:42.:48:46.

can see Michael Gove and Boris Johnson, which I'm sure if David

:48:47.:48:49.

Cameron is why is coming he will bring in in some form, people like

:48:50.:48:56.

Nicolas who support Remain, they concede David Cameron George

:48:57.:48:59.

Osborne, we have people who, if the party does form a broad cabinet

:49:00.:49:05.

after this, we can see our people at the top. The contrast with the

:49:06.:49:09.

Labour Party is the huge number of working-class Labour supporters who

:49:10.:49:13.

are voting to leave, there is almost no one at the top of the Labour

:49:14.:49:16.

Party that represents them. There has been a lot of focus on the

:49:17.:49:19.

problems is that the Conservative Party, but it may well be that the

:49:20.:49:23.

Labour Party loses a lot of its supporters' trust because of the

:49:24.:49:26.

referendum. We're talking about the politicians and the people in the

:49:27.:49:30.

Cabinet at the moment of the MPs that do or don't support them. From

:49:31.:49:35.

the outside, Carolyn, are you frightened about what might happen

:49:36.:49:37.

after the result, whether leave or remain wins in terms of political

:49:38.:49:44.

stability? It is a concern to business, because the uncertainty

:49:45.:49:46.

that has already been created could be perpetuated by the politics after

:49:47.:49:52.

whatever outcome we see. That said, I think businesses are very used to

:49:53.:49:56.

working with whatever kind of political environment that they

:49:57.:49:59.

find, and I think one of the things that they are going to want to try

:50:00.:50:02.

to do is see as much stability as quickly as possible. Let's assume

:50:03.:50:07.

Remain wins a narrow victory, will Conservative backbenchers accept

:50:08.:50:11.

that result, those who have campaigned so vociferously for At?

:50:12.:50:16.

They have said that the result is the result. And I agree exactly with

:50:17.:50:22.

Tim, I think he is very right, that the Prime Minister, he is a bigger

:50:23.:50:27.

man, and it will be a magnanimous and proper reshuffle, which will

:50:28.:50:32.

reflect all wings of the party. So having Michael Gove sitting in the

:50:33.:50:36.

Cabinet... I'm sure that will happen, but the most important thing

:50:37.:50:41.

is that there is a major agenda of social justice reform which the

:50:42.:50:46.

whole Tory party want to rally behind, and that includes prison

:50:47.:50:49.

reform, further stuff on education, an allsorts of stuff that we haven't

:50:50.:50:53.

done well enough on yet, and which need doing. And you will need

:50:54.:50:56.

support from that, and support from your own site, because there is a

:50:57.:51:00.

small majority. If one accuses political rivals of being liars,

:51:01.:51:04.

read Tories, you are talking nonsense, misleading the voters, it

:51:05.:51:08.

creates a poisonous atmosphere, and you yourself have lost your temper a

:51:09.:51:17.

couple of times. Could you serve in a party where Eurosceptics were

:51:18.:51:23.

driving is out of the EU? I lost my temper with Boris when he said

:51:24.:51:26.

something foolish about my grandfather, but he is a good friend

:51:27.:51:29.

and I am having dinner with him next week. We are on opposite sides, but

:51:30.:51:35.

this is not a civil war, it is a disagreement, and I predict to you,

:51:36.:51:38.

Jo, that the party will come together whatever the result,

:51:39.:51:41.

because it always does and because it has two. I fixed the problem is

:51:42.:51:45.

that the Tories do have a narrow majority anyway. Even before the

:51:46.:51:52.

referendum began, you saw rebellion on tax credits, on disability. The

:51:53.:51:54.

particular problem isn't the social justice system, which the

:51:55.:51:58.

Conservative Party can unite behind, it is the unfinished work of deficit

:51:59.:52:03.

reduction. It is the unfinished work of economic policy. The wisest thing

:52:04.:52:07.

the Prime Minister will do assuming he hangs on his move George Osborne.

:52:08.:52:13.

He has become a particular source of disunity. I think he should move to

:52:14.:52:18.

the Foreign Office, it is in his own long-term interests if he wants to

:52:19.:52:24.

be leader. Do you agree with that? These are matters for the Prime

:52:25.:52:29.

Minister. As it so happens, I think George Osborne would be a

:52:30.:52:31.

first-class Foreign Secretary, I think he has been a first-class

:52:32.:52:37.

Chancellor. But would he be moved, sacrificed? Some of the great

:52:38.:52:41.

offices of state will be freed up to allow others to come in, and I think

:52:42.:52:44.

that is a fact of life. Nicholas Soames, thank you. Thank you.

:52:45.:52:48.

Now, did I mention that there's a big debate -

:52:49.:52:50.

a Great Debate, indeed - being broadcast live

:52:51.:52:52.

from Wembley on BBC One at 8pm this evening?

:52:53.:52:54.

It's already hosted boxing and wrestling this year,

:52:55.:52:59.

and Wembley Arena is getting ready for the biggest tussle

:53:00.:53:02.

In the Remain corner, the Scottish Conservative

:53:03.:53:04.

leader, Ruth Davidson, the Mayor of London,

:53:05.:53:08.

Sadiq Khan, and the TUC general secretary, Frances O'Grady.

:53:09.:53:12.

In the Leave corner, the Labour MP Gisela Stuart,

:53:13.:53:15.

the energy minister Andrea Leadsom and him.

:53:16.:53:19.

This is the dressing room that Boris Johnson will be using.

:53:20.:53:21.

It is surprisingly unglamorous, but in the interests of balance,

:53:22.:53:26.

I'm reliably informed there will be some snacks on this table

:53:27.:53:31.

At least there's a mirror with showbiz lights round it.

:53:32.:53:36.

Then the walk through here, through these doors

:53:37.:53:38.

Up here on the main stage, the Remainers will be on one side.

:53:39.:53:50.

The Leavers will make their case on the opposite side.

:53:51.:53:53.

I think these guys will be finished by then.

:53:54.:53:55.

David Dimbleby will chair things from here.

:53:56.:53:58.

Each side will also be able to make an opening and closing statement,

:53:59.:54:01.

which they will deliver from here to the audience out there.

:54:02.:54:04.

They're split 50/50 between Leave and Remain,

:54:05.:54:11.

and unlike a football match, everyone will be sitting

:54:12.:54:13.

Each section of the debate will start with some questions

:54:14.:54:17.

from the audience on subjects like immigration or the economy.

:54:18.:54:19.

This is the second stage, where each campaign will have five

:54:20.:54:27.

more representatives drawn from the other political

:54:28.:54:30.

parties and the worlds of business and journalism.

:54:31.:54:32.

Across the road from the arena is this building,

:54:33.:54:38.

It seems pretty quiet now, but soon there will be about 200

:54:39.:54:43.

hacks and spokespeople in here, because it's the spin room.

:54:44.:54:48.

And because we are scrupulously impartial in this sensitive

:54:49.:54:50.

political period, at the same time on ITV,

:54:51.:54:54.

it's Spain versus Croatia, and Channel 4 has a house

:54:55.:54:56.

Well, Adam obviously enjoying himself. It will be very exciting.

:54:57.:55:10.

Now, time to find out the answer to our quiz.

:55:11.:55:13.

The question was which of these moggies wants out?

:55:14.:55:17.

Of the EU, that is, not just out of the house!

:55:18.:55:21.

So, Tim and Carolyn, what's the correct answer?

:55:22.:55:29.

I think it is D. I think it is real grumpy cat. It is in fact the right

:55:30.:55:43.

answer. Look at that face! What are you saying, you have to be grumpy to

:55:44.:55:50.

be voting out? I recognise Dan Hammond, and I can't believe he

:55:51.:55:55.

would have a cat in favour of Britain staying in the EU.

:55:56.:56:00.

Yes, that's Leave campaigner Dan Hannan with his cat.

:56:01.:56:02.

Because the fur has been flying on Twitter, with rival sides

:56:03.:56:05.

in the referendum debate posting pics of their moggies

:56:06.:56:07.

claiming their feline friends share their own views on the EU.

:56:08.:56:10.

Kate Bevan and her cat Daphne. They have been supporting the Cats

:56:11.:56:20.

against Brexit campaign, and James is here with his cat, they are

:56:21.:56:29.

supporting Cats for Brexit. If you follow her cat flap on Twitter, you

:56:30.:56:37.

can see her being mostly in other than out, she's burned a lot of time

:56:38.:56:41.

on the sofa, and she is worried about her cat supplies from the EU.

:56:42.:56:45.

How do you know that your cat prefers out? My cat is

:56:46.:56:52.

pro-immigration, she was a rescue cat, and she is internationalist,

:56:53.:56:55.

she is often seen in the neighbours' Gardens, and she doesn't like the

:56:56.:56:59.

cage of Fortress Europe as you can see here, she feels that it is

:57:00.:57:04.

somewhat stacked against in terms of the fat cats who bully her with

:57:05.:57:13.

stories of recessions in cat food. I wonder how long you have been

:57:14.:57:16.

preparing these answers and watching their behaviour! What difference

:57:17.:57:20.

does it make whether we are a night of Europe as opposed to the

:57:21.:57:23.

contented lives of all the cats I know? Generali, I am in favour of

:57:24.:57:28.

staying in Europe, because I think there is a lot to be said for free

:57:29.:57:32.

movement of labour and free movement of cats across garden fences. I can

:57:33.:57:36.

see the free movement of your cat, who has just wandered off! The crew

:57:37.:57:42.

will have to look after, look out for her later. I think she cares

:57:43.:57:48.

about is in the house, and she wants to have a happy house, and we are

:57:49.:57:52.

excited about Thursday, and I hope she is, to. So do you think the cats

:57:53.:57:58.

feeling tense atmosphere? Do they react to their owners? I will take

:57:59.:58:06.

her away from Tim, because I think he is a little allergic. Do they

:58:07.:58:12.

notice if things are uptight in the house? I'm not so sure. And do she

:58:13.:58:17.

respond to the atmosphere? She has been an social media making sure

:58:18.:58:20.

people know where she stands on this thing. She is very clear about it.

:58:21.:58:25.

She wants plenty of fish coming into the country, no restrictions are

:58:26.:58:32.

plenty of catnip coming in. In the interest of BBC ballads, will dogs

:58:33.:58:37.

be featured tomorrow? You can write to the programme editor! Has it

:58:38.:58:42.

persuaded you at all. I had a long conversation with my cats that

:58:43.:58:45.

morning about the economic case, and they are definitely in! They

:58:46.:58:46.

probably ran out! The one o'clock news is starting

:58:47.:58:48.

over on BBC One now. It has been a ten Mac One Show! I

:58:49.:59:01.

had to get

:59:02.:59:02.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS