21/06/2016 Daily Politics


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.


David Cameron wants to reduce net migration to less than 100,000


So why has his former head of strategy said


that the Prime Minister was told four years ago that the promise


The man who made millions when Britain tumbled out of the ERM


on Black Wednesday's warning that it could be a Black Friday


Should we take him seriously or is he just another wealthy


Six big-hitting politicians of the main stage, 6,000 Leave


and Remain supporters in the audience.


Are you ready for the BBC's Great Referendum Debate?


The fur is flying on Twitter in a feline face-off.


But how do these cats' owners know what they think?


With us for the whole of the programme today,


Two rivals in the referendum debate but they will not be as voracious as


felines, or maybe they will! Times columnist and ex-


Conservative Tim Montgomerie, The Confederation of


British Industry's first female whose big business members


are campaigning to stay in. First this morning, forget


the Stadium Municipal in Toulouse, scene of Wales' footballing triumph


yesterday, another iconic footballing address will be


the scene of great drama tonight. Wembley - the arena not the stadium


- is hosting the BBC's Great Debate tonight


on BBC One at 8pm. It's the biggest referendum event


of the campaign and its compere has taken a break from a busy


rehearsal to join us. I am pleased to welcome the


masterful David Dimbleby. That is a massive audience, 6000, and you have


to keep them under control. I wish it were Wembley Stadium. We could


have filled Wembley Stadium ten times over the amount of interest in


this debate. Millions of people will be watching. We are in the arena,


which is great. I am taking my guitar, I will be singing a ditty,


hello, Wembley! We have had weeks and weeks of discussion. What


happens in a long campaign is all kinds of detail is gone into but at


the end, when people go into the polling booth, it normally focuses


on two or three big points. I think tonight the campaigns will focus on


those and the audience asking the questions, they will focus on what


seemed to be the most important, the visceral feeling that will make


people decide whether In or Out is for them. You have a panel of three


petitions each side. How will it work? It is carefully worked out


between the two sides. The Vote Leave and Remain campaigns have


chosen the people, three on each side. There will be an opening


statement and closing statement, one minute for each. I think long


opening statements in some debates have been tedious. Short statements.


In between, those six will debate questions that have been chosen from


the audience. Also Michelle Hussain will be there with ten people


listening at the back of the stadium, commenting on what they


have heard. It should have a good pace. That will work well. And the


last 20 minutes, we are in the spin room and hearing reaction from


outsiders, politicians, everybody. Two hours, but it is not two long


hours of statements. I hope to get a good dialogue running across the


stage. That is the plan. It is Wembley, it sounds like a warm up


for Glastonbury if you have your guitar. There are two stages. There


are three, really. There is me, Michelle Hussain with a gang of


people. Empoli outside in the spin room. -- Emily Maitlis. It is not


raining. There are train strikes coming out of your ears. I hope


people will get here. Before we closed the books we had 20,000


people applying. It is fantastic inside. It is a huge stadium with


bleachers all around. We are on a big stage. It is bigger and more


glamorous than any thing you can imagine. It is better than your set.


The bar is low here, I can assure you! You go back to your bigger and


better set. Are you happy with the Remain line-up, this close to


polling day, would you have liked to have seen the Prime Minister, George


Osborne? I think it is a good line-up. We are getting to the final


distillation of the argument. To have a line-up that are not


necessarily be usual suspects. Francis O'Grady I think will make a


terrific case for workers' rights. Ruth Davidson, who presented a


strong Remain case. And Sadiq Khan, coming out strong on London and not


just London. Does Boris Johnson perform well in this format? I think


he does. The Leave side have the same people who appeared on ITV, if


I am allowed to mention that. We can name the competitors! Theirs was a


smaller event than the BBC! The Leave team, a conservative, Gisela


Stuart, Labour, who did a good job two weeks ago. The Leave pudding at


the same team. In that debate, people like -- putting out the same


team. Boris was disciplined in not responding. I think there was an


attempt to provoke Boris. The danger if Remain repeat that it allowed


Gisela Stuart and Andrew to make points uninterrupted. People were


focused on attacking Boris which allowed the other Leave spokesman to


make points more clearly. Ruth Davidson, the Conservative leader in


Scotland has been chosen, I think to duff up Boris. She is pugnacious.


Interesting. Particularly after the tragedy of last week, an emphasis on


personal attacks will not go down well and I hope both sides will


emphasise, as Carolyn said, the big closing arguments of the campaign,


so we have substance rather than pettiness. What about changing


minds? People are still saying they do not know or their minds could be


changed. How important is it in that regard? Really important. I think if


we can get away... If in this last week people can get back to core


arguments around the economy, arguments around immigration,


sovereignty, if they can be brought together in a simple and straight


forward and honest way, I think it could be compelling for people to


make their final minds up. There I say it, because we are on our show,


is there anything left to say? We had this great debate and you want


to ram home the messages of both campaigns, is there anything new to


say? I do not think there is anything new to say but there are


undecided people. It seems to be a diminishing number. It might be ten


or 15%. It could swing a result. My feeling is if you ask people whether


they would join the European Union if we were not already members, the


pollsters find overwhelmingly not. People are frightened of leaving


because of scare stories put out by the business community and by the


Prime Minister, it is almost an emotional thing now. Do people


believe enough in Britain's ability to survive outside of the EU? If


people want facts there are only a certain number of facts. It is an


element of faith now. Will it be heart rather than head? I think it


will be a mixture of the two and what is coming through strongly is


the sense of opportunities and benefits for the economy of being in


the EU. I am pleased that we have begun to see more about positive


arguments, the fact we are on the verge of a digital single market


with Vodafone talking about the advantages and smaller businesses.


The services economy and that opportunity. I think there is an


opportunity for positive economic arguments around jobs, prosperity,


that can come through. The question for today is which of


these cats supports Brexit? At the end of the show,


Tim and Carolyn will give Now - the Conservatives' 2010


election campaign promised to reduce net migration


to the tens of thousands. in a Coalition Government,


at last year's election the Conservatives AGAIN included


the commitment in their manifesto. But now Steve Hilton -


who is the the former director of strategy at Downing Street -


has said that officials told them back in 2012 that the commitment


was unachievable if we stayed This question of immigration


in this referendum isn't about whether you want lower


immigration or higher immigration. It's about whether the government


that people elect in this And when I was working


in government, we were told by officials that as long


as we are in the EU, we couldn't And that's why I think we need


to leave the EU. And David Cameron was asked


about Steve Hilton's claim by Lorraine Kelly on ITV this


morning. It had fallen quite substantially


and it had got to not far away from the ambition I set. There are good


ways of controlling immigration. People who work here have to work


four years before getting full access to the welfare system. But


pulling out of the single market, wrecking our economy, that is a bad


way. Are you surprised to hear Steve


Hilton being prominent in the closing weeks in this campaign,


particularly with the claim that civil servants told number 10 when


he was there it was not achievable to bring net migration down to tens


of thousands if the UK stayed in the EU? I am not surprised. I talked to


Steve when he worked for the Prime Minister and was very frustrated


them by the amount of paperwork that came across his desk from the


European Union. He had a colour-coded system, the stuff that


came from the Coalition Government, the stuff from Europe and the stuff


from the civil service and he said the biggest pile was the stuff


Europe generated, an illustration of how much we are governed by the EU,


and I think he is right saying as long as we are part of the EU, we do


not know if immigration is 330 thousand net, 555,000 next year. We


have no mechanism to control it and if we have no mechanism to control


it, we cannot plan for its impact on hospitals and schools and the


housing market. Was it a mistake to continue to make the pledge to


reduce net migration to tens of thousands when you cannot control at


least half? It is a political choice and I have to say it is one the


business community has always thought is a challenging thing. You


cannot control the number of people who leave and so it would always be


challenging, and it means there has been a focus on the control of this


number rather than what is in the best interests of jobs, the economy.


I think we would be entirely happy if there was not a net migration


number. This is one of the big gaps. The business wants cheap labour.


They want imported cheap labour from all over Europe because it keeps


costs down. Quite a lot of the Leave side want high immigration. We have


heard from Michael Gove and Boris Johnson. It is important we have


immigration. We need certain people for hospitals, we need highly


skilled people. If we are in control, we know the next year we


will get to a certain amount, we can adjusted accordingly, but the


problem at the moment, because we have no control over immigration


from the rest of Europe, we can have big swings that great big pressures.


What about cheap labour, unskilled workers? That is not right. Be


honest. A lot of the opportunities, we have had huge skill shortages


across the country. In the West Midlands they have a shortage of


engineers. This has been one way we have been able to continue to grow.


I recognise and members recognise this causes challenges in some parts


and do not under estimate that. But the solutions are not enclosing our


borders. Wouldn't it be better if we could pick and choose, which we


could do if we had control? One of the things that we forget


that this is a benefit to our people here. Answer the question I asked


rather than changing the subject. It is an important point. In the 1980s,


when our economy was growing less quickly, and the German economy was


growing well, we had our feeders then, pet, young people going over


to Germany to work, and it was a great opportunity. Young people love


the idea that they could go and work abroad, and that is a reciprocal


idea. At the moment it is going in one direction, but it could go in


the other. We will talk about immigration are little later. To


come back to the central point that Steve Hilton was making, they were


warned that it wasn't possible. Steve Hilton has also said, and


Michael Gove today, he assumed the Prime Minister would negotiate a


better deal around this issue of freedom of movement. You think that


is also what happened at the time, that they assumed they would be able


to do something ahead of the referendum, and the Prime Minister


says they have? There was an a real belief in Downing Street that they


would get this emergency brake, they said, give us something if numbers


released at a rocket, we could turn the tap off, because you talk to the


New Zealand or Australia Prime Minister is, they have much higher


levels of immigration, but it is not a political issue, and their


explanation for that is that at any time, they can turn off the tap,


they have control. I did think the British people are not generous,


they understand the points that Carolyn make, they need certain


levels of skilled labour. But when Germany so ruthlessly and


uncompromisingly said you can't have anything at all, that gave us an


illustration really of Europe's unwillingness to even give, when we


had to the head of the referendum, Europe is not in a mood for


compromise, not in a move try to help Britain out, which is one of


the reasons why we are better out of the club. Were you surprised that


there was not as much corporation from countries like Germany and


France over this issue of trying to control the flow of freedom of


movement? I think there is a really important thing at the heart of all


of this, this is what the single market involves. And that is going


to be one of the core choices for the British public on Thursday. It


is part of being a member of the single market, and the benefits of


that, we believe, are really significant. It is part of that,


that idea of free movement, that is at the heart of this choice. All


right. Alongside immigration, the other


battle today is the economy. Some of the biggest names


on the high street are today warning that families will face higher


prices if we leave the EU. Former bosses of Tesco, Sainsbury's,


Marks Spencer, Asda, Waitrose and Morrisons have all said


the rising costs of the weekly shop would be "catastrophic


for ordinary families". Their letter came as retail worker


union Usdaw suggested that workers would be ?580 worse off if Britain


left the EU due to a hit on sterling But economists for Brexit countered


with a warning that unskilled EU migrants cost each taxpayer


on average ?17.75 per month. They base this on a family of four


costing ?29,225 in tax credits, housing and child benefit


and the cost of education They say single unskilled workers


cost ?849 each year. Meanwhile, financier


George Soros, who made a fortune betting against the pound


on Black Wednesday, said sterling would "decline precipitously"


if Leave win this week. But Unite boss Len McCluskey,


despite backing Remain, said that EU immigration has led


to "sustained pressure on living standards"


at the "expense" of British workers. Well, we can now talk to our guest,


he is in Cardiff, Patrick Minford. Your report today says on skilled


immigrants cost ?6.6 billion per year, but this is based on families


of four with a stay at home mother. Do you know many families of four on


skilled migrants with stay at home mums in the UK? The basic point is


that it costs the best part of ?30,000 for that particular family


type, if an unskilled worker brings in the rest of the family and he has


two kids, ages 30 grand. Of course it can be less, it can be more. The


whole point is that if you are an unskilled worker, you don't pay much


tax, and you often get tax credits. If you have a family, you get a lot


of tax credits, say your contribution to the Exchequer is


probably negative, and then you impose the costs of health,


education and housing on us, the other taxpayers, and of course


particularly on the local communities who have to endure these


costs locally rather than nationally. So it is very easy for


the rest of us to say, it is very nice to have cheap labour and so on.


The costs are borne by the local communities, which is why they are


angry. But it is your figures that we are looking at. You seem to be


saying you based the figures, the number of unskilled migrant


families, on the UK average household composition. Most people


would agree that the two are not the parable. We don't know exactly,


unfortunately. So why have you used it as an illustrative figure? We


have 28% single and the rest are family. The number can be smaller or


larger. Under the fact of our welfare system, you get much more


than you pay in. If you had a family of one kid, it would be the same. If


you have a family, if you only have one and a nonworking mother, you get


tax credits. That is the point, the facts of our welfare system. The


basic point, Jo, is that if you have a welfare system, you act as a


magnet for unskilled workers. If you also have a high level employment,


followed by Matt on an economy doing well when the rest of Europe is


doing badly. So you are assuming that three quarters of farm workers


and labourers come here with their partners and children, whereas on


skilled migrants are usually young. You really saying they cost our


health service every year. There is a indeed, there is childbirth, if


you have kids... The whole point is we don't really exactly, but what we


do know is that this welfare state, and this is why of course Australia


has a green card system, and it doesn't let in unskilled workers, or


if they do let unskilled workers, they'd let them in with dependents,


because they cost so much to the welfare state. This is the


fundamental point, and that is why we could get lots of lots of


unskilled workers. And there is a further point, that they put a


depressing effect on the local wage on the local economy, which again is


a factor that is very unpopular, naturally, with the people in those


areas. Say you have a package that is damaging to poor people, and is


not damaging to richer people and those with privilege. Lets get your


response, Carolyn, because one of the things Patrick Minford is saying


is that they are not paying in as much as they are taking at, browse


the overall contribution the country from EU migrants according to a lot


of studies, certainly in taxes paid, is greater than the amount taken at.


Where I agree with Patrick is that there are local issues, and we


accept that. But this is highly misleading analysis in terms of the


kind of natural family composition. We know from experience that it is


not a family of four that is the typical model here, and studies have


shown that the net contribution is around about ?2.5 billion overall,


so these are highly misleading figures. The other thing I would


like to pick up on this this point about the depressing of wages. There


has been a very detailed Bank of England study done at the end of


last year that pulled together all of the different research on this.


They concluded that the impact on immigration and wages was


negligible, and close to zero. So I have to say, this is not helping or


adding or clarifying this important debate at all. Patrick Minford, can


I just say, low skilled British people should be more worried by the


claims of the supermarket bosses that leaving the EU would cause


supermarket prices to rise, rather than having their wages depressed.


If you go to free trade and have competition in the supermarket to


get rid of the common agricultural policy and the protectionist


policies of the EU, you will bring prices down massively. What they are


talking about is a temporary effect on the exchange rate of the way the


economy reacts to Brexit, which is a completely different matter. And so


if they look in terms of the living standards of people after the


adjustment has come through, they go up. And that is what they have done,


they have just said, they have assumed, like George Soros, a big


policy uncertainty effect on the exchange rate, which is temporary,


and the exchange rate will simply stabilise the economy like it did


after we left the exchange rate mechanism. Are you worried about


that, Tim Montgomerie? George Torres is worried about the Sterling


falling precipitously. That would have a dramatic effect even in the


short term. I was at the Bank of England, I had just joined them at


the time of the week fell out of the exchange rate mechanism, and you


talk about black Wednesday and Black Friday. A lot of us remember it as


White Wednesday, the day a 14 year economic recovery began. There will


be some uncertainty. But you don't think that is important in and of


itself? The economy has automatic stabilisers, and a small downward


movement in the pound would help exporters you're in that period. We


don't have an inflation problem at the moment, in fact we have some


risk of deviation, so a more competitive pound would suit the UK


economy very well for a period, and once our trade arrangements are


stabilised, we can go back to a more normal situation. Do you agree with


that assessment? There are two things here. In terms of the


immediate effect on the pound, I think that we can all be, there will


be a pound fall,... Will it be as dramatic as George Soros said, 15%?


Other areas are forecasting something similar. But the other


area is what we might expect in terms of longer-term tariffs and the


effect on prices. The leave campaign is now talking about falling out of


the single market and facing WTO type tariffs, and that would


increase prices in the long run, and I have talked to a lot of businesses


who are concerned about the effects of tariffs on prices and what that


would do. Given that you previously said that we shouldn't be scared if


manufacturing is eliminated if we leave the EU, concentrated on other


industries, why should any low paid worker trust you to have their


interests at heart? That is a misquote, as you know very well.


What I have said is that manufacturing that is unable to


compete in the globalised world would be eliminated. I made it quite


clear that high-tech manufacturing would thrive, and that is what we


are looking for. Our car industry raises productivity, it already


sells two thirds of his exports to the world market, and half of our


exports overall go to the world market. Manufacturing can compete.


It goes upmarket, that is how it works. And what in fact Carolyn


misrepresented is, as they always have on this issue, we're talking


about eliminating tariffs on our imports, which has a massive effect


on the welfare of consumers here, and is the dynamic for the economy.


And as for those tariffs on our exports Big E you may or may not


slap on, -- that the EU may or may not slap on, and big companies will


do it because they don't like the effects of their car experts, but we


will get a competitive economy, and manufacturers who are worth their


salt will welcome the contribution to raise their game. You said we


misquoted you. You did say over time that we would mostly eliminate


manufacturing if we left the EU, leaving mostly designed... I'm


sorry, if you read more than one sentence, I made it perfectly clear


that the hi tech was accepted, and the way in which manufacturing


adjusts is through going up in value. That is how the CBI's members


have adjusted, that is how the kindest is a world markets. You are


talking in a very negative as narrow-minded way. I was trying to


raise our eyes to the idea of global competition across our economy to


the enormous benefit of our consumers, and we can perfectly well


help our manufacturers over this rough patch where they have actually


got to face global competition in their home market as well, and why


not? Let be put back to Tim McGarry. Do you think people working in


manufacturing and other low paid workers should listen to Patrick


Minford over Carolyn Fairburn when it comes to talking about their


jobs, long-term prosperity and the future? I think they should listen


to everybody... That is very diplomatic! And they should also


listen to James Dyson, one of our most successful inventors, or


Anthony Bamford, head of JCB, Europe's largest construction


manufacturer. Lots of businesses, small businesses, big visitors do


very well out of the EU, partly because of the cheap labour. Small


businesses who don't trade with the EU still have to put up with a lot


of the EU regulations. Let me just answer that and then you can come


back. This is not true, we have many small


members who want to stay. A lot of what you talk about is product


standardisation. A cheese manufacturer in Somerset to benefits


from the standardisation in standards and packaging, many


companies like that. The idea it is all about big business is wrong and


it is not borne out... The great opportunity of leaving the EU is


nine tenths of growth in exports is with the rest of the world. Europe


is a declining part. It is declining twice as fast as America, an


equivalent advanced... It is about half and half at the moment. Europe


is losing its share. Because it is 28 member states, cannot agree on


how to solve the Euro crisis, the refugee... It could not agree trade


agreements with China or other parts of the fast-growing world. On our


own, able to move in a nimble way, we consign those agreements with the


emerging world. MPs and peers gathered


in Westminster yesterday for a special recall of Parliament


to remember the MP Jo Cox, who was brutally murdered


in her constituency of Batley It was an extraordinary occasion


with heartfelt tributes from politicians on all sides


and a very emotional one for those We have lost one of our own,


and our society as a whole has lost We need, Mr Speaker,


a kinder and gentler politics. This is not a factional


party political point. We all have a responsibility in this


House - and beyond - not to whip up Jo was a humanitarian to her core,


a passionate and brilliant campaigner whose grit


and determination to fight for justice saw her time and time


again driving issues up the agenda and making people listen,


and above all, act. Quite simply, there are people


on our planet today who are only Jo had a way with people,


a way of relating to people from all walks of life,


and she had a real Jo wanted to make the world fairer,


more equal, more tolerant We all have better instincts


and deepest fears. Jo appealed to our better instincts,


our sense that, as she said in her maiden speech,


what we have in common is greater Making common cause with a crusty


old Tory, she and I became co-chairs She was the heart and soul of these


benches, and we are heartbroken. We loved her every day,


and we will miss her every day. She inspired us all,


and I swear that we will do everything in our power to make her


and her family incredibly proud. There was no dividing line


between Jo's maternal heart Her children will grow up


to know what an amazing She is such a great


loss to our politics, an irreplaceable loss


to her family, to whom we send She was always passionate


about the issues she cared about, never afraid to stand up for those


she felt had no voice, but she was also a proud Yorkshire


woman, and our county Mr Speaker, the fearless


Jo Cox never stopped She gave voice to the voiceless,


she spoke truth to power. She exemplified the best values


of our party and of our country, compassion, community,


solidarity and internationalism. And she put her convictions to work


for everyone she touched. For the people of Batley and Spen,


for the wretched of Syria, for victims of violence


and injustice everywhere. Spontaneous applause at the end of


those heartfelt tributes from MPs following the brutal and tragic


murder of the MP Jo Cox last week. Much of the referendum debate has


centred on whether it's possible to control immigration whilst


remaining a member Here is the Labour leader Jeremy


Corbyn on Sunday responding to a question from the BBC's Andrew Marr


about whether he thought they should be any upper limit on migration to


this country. I don't think you can have one


while you have a free movement of labour and I think the free


movement of labour means that you have to balance the economy


so you have to improve living So that means the European Union's


appalling treatment of Greece, particularly the European Central


Bank, as well as the European Union, If you actually deliberately lower


living standards and increase poverty in certain countries


in south-east or Eastern Europe, then you're bound to have a flow


of people looking for somewhere Surely the issue is


an anti-austerity, a growth package Now, that was seen as a gaffe


by some observers - a Remain campaigner appearing


to admit that immigration could not But what if you don't believe


in controlling immigration and that Well, the Anglican priest


and commentator Giles Fraser Tim Montgomerie has said that


controlling immigration is the most important


issue in the referendum. Both are in favour


of leaving the EU. Tim Montgomerie, Giles Frazer Wright


is critically, in this era of advance globalisation we believe in


free trade, free movement of goods that not in the free movement of


labour. That describes you. Why does your liberalism stop at national


borders? Because it is about managing situations. I am sure Giles


would not necessarily except one, two million, 3 million people coming


into Britain at one point because it would overwhelm public services and


communities. We should be a country that welcomes refugees and is open


to humanitarian responsibilities. People are confident about playing


the humanitarian role if they know the government of not letting in


undesirables, that they monitor refugees, could not be including


terrorists for example. Should there be an upper limit? I am not


convinced there should be. It would take 3 million? I do not think that


will happen, it is a fantasy figure will stop I think that is


scaremongering. We have not had this obsession with borders in this


country, it is only 100 years since we had immigration controls, which


we started having because people were terrified of the amount of


Jewish people coming to this country, that is how it started.


There is a racist element about border controls, as there was then


and as there is now. A lot of the fear is that there will be the other


who will come to swamp us. I think it is a fantasy. You believe that


people like Tim Montgomerie who say they should be managed, our races? I


think Tim is right about this, we should be in control of our borders.


I think... I want to make the case we should be in control of them and


it should be democratically decided and we should be... I may be an


extremist on this, but we could be more generous than now and we should


be generous particularly to people from outside the EU. The EU itself


is shockingly bad on migrants and migration. That is where I agreed.


Would you like to see greater numbers, perhaps equal numbers,


equal numbers in hundreds of thousands of people from outside the


EU? I will not say whether it is equal or not but where I agree with


Giles, I think he might live in fantasies land on his general


position but an Indian, Australian, South African, should not have


second-class status when it comes to entering Britain compared to a


French or German person. The problem is not little England, but European.


It has become inward looking as a continent. As Giles said, border


controls have always been racist, going back to the 30s, not allowing


Jewish people escaping Germany. With all due respect... You know when


someone says that... Accusing people who worry about immigration of


racism, of course there is some races and it is unfair, opinion


polls, every ethnic minority community of Britain is opposed to


large-scale immigration. It is not about the colour of the skin or


religion of the immigrant, it is about the scale. You are one of


those people who floats around the world on your passport because you


are back and forth. Borders mean nothing to you because you are


wealthy enough. African farmers, people in poor countries, for whom


borders mean something, Syrian, they mean nothing to us. There is


definitely... It is about penning the poor people into poverty. What


about community cohesion, that must be something you worry about. There


are risks outlined by some people that if you don't have it managed,


you will need a breakdown. What has happened in the referendum is a


classic example. There is a large group of people who feel completely


they have not been listened to and they are not attended to and they


are readily exploited by those who want to go... This is all about this


scary other immigrant. I think their anxiety is more about jobs, housing,


the real thing is for people. I think people in this country are not


concerned about the colour of the skin about the person living next


door to them. So they are not racist, you have contradicted


yourself? I think the idea we have to insist on our borders, there is


something racist about that, that we have to build up a moat. I do not


think British people are racist, I think that this is being exploited


by people like Nigel Farage, there is a genuine feeling of anger that


people have not been listened to which is being exploited and changed


and shifted in this debate over the referendum. If you think it is a key


issue, immigration. The polls seem to bear that out. You think on


balance when it is stood alongside the economy and the value of the


muddy in people'spocket, that will trump issues of immigration -- value


of money. People can see both sides of the economic debate is balance.


There are costs of leaving the single market. I also think they can


see the advantages of having better connections with fast-growing parts


of the world. The economic argument is muddy for people. But there


of the world. The economic argument only one way we can get control of


borders and that is to leave the EU. That is one big factor in this


debate in a debate with few facts. If we have that control, Giles can


stand on his manifesto of letting anybody in and I will stand on mine


of controlling. We could see who could get more votes. We will do


of controlling. We could see who that! If you are in a position of


principal about this. I am flagging up a principle and these principles


the west has had. Look on the Statue of Liberty and the moving quote,


bring me your huddled masses. No one is living up to that because they


are building a fence around it to stop Mexicans coming in. What about


the tone, has it been what you would like to hear on the immigration


debate? No. All sides of this debate in different ways have sometimes let


themselves down. I think the Nigel Farage poster that has been


controversial was not acceptable. It was not factual. It portrayed dark


skinned people trying to get into Britain when they were not even


trying to get into Europe. It was not acceptable, that aspect of the


debate. Just because the poster ad Nigel Farage has behaved


inappropriately, it does not mean working-class communities seeing


their wages depressed, that is not racist, it is a reasonable concern


about immigration's impact on local economies.


Giles Fraser, thank you for coming in.


Now, there's been name calling, furious briefing


So can the Tory party put itself back together


after Thursday's referendum - and how?


In a moment, we'll be joined by the leading


Conservative Remain campaigner, who's being making his case forcibly


on social media - Nicholas Soames - first here's a little reminder


of the less obliging things Conservatives have


I think the strain of the campaign is


Lord Heseltine is a frightful old humbug who divided


the Conservative Party more than anybody else in our modern


history, and a period of silence on his part would be welcome.


I must say, it is always good to hear voices from the past.


I'd be grateful if they remained in the past.


Well, he's the life and soul of the party.


But he's not the man you want driving you home


The Chancellor bascially needs to calm down and regrettably


When I heard that, I did think of Pinocchio and the nose


Unfortunately, those of us at the outset with that very


clear, inclusive, moderate vision for Brexit have, over time,


been taken over by a message which is divisive,


which is inward-looking, which is xenophobic.


Well, Nicholas Soames is with us here. There are two letters


circulating in Tory circles that have been reported, one calling for


a vote of no-confidence in David Cameron's leadership. Are the people


who have signed it treacherous? I think it is up to them whether they


signed a letter or not. It is not something I would personally do, and


I think it is very unhelpful, and as we have no idea how matters will


turnout, I think it is a foolish thing to do, but it is well known


that there are people who have had it in the David Cameron since the


day he was elected. My colleague Nadine Dorries put her objection


into the Prime Minister within a week of


him being in government. I am a fan of the Prime Minister, and he has


already announced he will leave before the next election, so what is


the point? There is another letter saying that the Prime Minister must


stay in situ, but it does indicate the bad blood that is running


through the Conservative Party? I am an agnostic on this, because I think


there is a bad blood, a bit of bad blood, but by and large, this has


not been as bad as Maastricht. You don't think it is as bad? That was a


matter for the House of Commons. This is a fundamental disagreement


throughout the country. This isn't just in the House of Commons. OK,


there is some bad blood around, but it is not blood that is bad enough


for us not to come together on a big agenda. Do you agree with that? I


don't think John Major has ever really forgiven Iain Duncan Smith as


example of post Maastricht relations. Do you think this will


really change whatever the result? I don't think it will be easy, because


this has been a massive national debate, but one of the advantages


the Conservative Party has, Conservative minded people like me


can see Michael Gove and Boris Johnson, which I'm sure if David


Cameron is why is coming he will bring in in some form, people like


Nicolas who support Remain, they concede David Cameron George


Osborne, we have people who, if the party does form a broad cabinet


after this, we can see our people at the top. The contrast with the


Labour Party is the huge number of working-class Labour supporters who


are voting to leave, there is almost no one at the top of the Labour


Party that represents them. There has been a lot of focus on the


problems is that the Conservative Party, but it may well be that the


Labour Party loses a lot of its supporters' trust because of the


referendum. We're talking about the politicians and the people in the


Cabinet at the moment of the MPs that do or don't support them. From


the outside, Carolyn, are you frightened about what might happen


after the result, whether leave or remain wins in terms of political


stability? It is a concern to business, because the uncertainty


that has already been created could be perpetuated by the politics after


whatever outcome we see. That said, I think businesses are very used to


working with whatever kind of political environment that they


find, and I think one of the things that they are going to want to try


to do is see as much stability as quickly as possible. Let's assume


Remain wins a narrow victory, will Conservative backbenchers accept


that result, those who have campaigned so vociferously for At?


They have said that the result is the result. And I agree exactly with


Tim, I think he is very right, that the Prime Minister, he is a bigger


man, and it will be a magnanimous and proper reshuffle, which will


reflect all wings of the party. So having Michael Gove sitting in the


Cabinet... I'm sure that will happen, but the most important thing


is that there is a major agenda of social justice reform which the


whole Tory party want to rally behind, and that includes prison


reform, further stuff on education, an allsorts of stuff that we haven't


done well enough on yet, and which need doing. And you will need


support from that, and support from your own site, because there is a


small majority. If one accuses political rivals of being liars,


read Tories, you are talking nonsense, misleading the voters, it


creates a poisonous atmosphere, and you yourself have lost your temper a


couple of times. Could you serve in a party where Eurosceptics were


driving is out of the EU? I lost my temper with Boris when he said


something foolish about my grandfather, but he is a good friend


and I am having dinner with him next week. We are on opposite sides, but


this is not a civil war, it is a disagreement, and I predict to you,


Jo, that the party will come together whatever the result,


because it always does and because it has two. I fixed the problem is


that the Tories do have a narrow majority anyway. Even before the


referendum began, you saw rebellion on tax credits, on disability. The


particular problem isn't the social justice system, which the


Conservative Party can unite behind, it is the unfinished work of deficit


reduction. It is the unfinished work of economic policy. The wisest thing


the Prime Minister will do assuming he hangs on his move George Osborne.


He has become a particular source of disunity. I think he should move to


the Foreign Office, it is in his own long-term interests if he wants to


be leader. Do you agree with that? These are matters for the Prime


Minister. As it so happens, I think George Osborne would be a


first-class Foreign Secretary, I think he has been a first-class


Chancellor. But would he be moved, sacrificed? Some of the great


offices of state will be freed up to allow others to come in, and I think


that is a fact of life. Nicholas Soames, thank you. Thank you.


Now, did I mention that there's a big debate -


a Great Debate, indeed - being broadcast live


from Wembley on BBC One at 8pm this evening?


It's already hosted boxing and wrestling this year,


and Wembley Arena is getting ready for the biggest tussle


In the Remain corner, the Scottish Conservative


leader, Ruth Davidson, the Mayor of London,


Sadiq Khan, and the TUC general secretary, Frances O'Grady.


In the Leave corner, the Labour MP Gisela Stuart,


the energy minister Andrea Leadsom and him.


This is the dressing room that Boris Johnson will be using.


It is surprisingly unglamorous, but in the interests of balance,


I'm reliably informed there will be some snacks on this table


At least there's a mirror with showbiz lights round it.


Then the walk through here, through these doors


Up here on the main stage, the Remainers will be on one side.


The Leavers will make their case on the opposite side.


I think these guys will be finished by then.


David Dimbleby will chair things from here.


Each side will also be able to make an opening and closing statement,


which they will deliver from here to the audience out there.


They're split 50/50 between Leave and Remain,


and unlike a football match, everyone will be sitting


Each section of the debate will start with some questions


from the audience on subjects like immigration or the economy.


This is the second stage, where each campaign will have five


more representatives drawn from the other political


parties and the worlds of business and journalism.


Across the road from the arena is this building,


It seems pretty quiet now, but soon there will be about 200


hacks and spokespeople in here, because it's the spin room.


And because we are scrupulously impartial in this sensitive


political period, at the same time on ITV,


it's Spain versus Croatia, and Channel 4 has a house


Well, Adam obviously enjoying himself. It will be very exciting.


Now, time to find out the answer to our quiz.


The question was which of these moggies wants out?


Of the EU, that is, not just out of the house!


So, Tim and Carolyn, what's the correct answer?


I think it is D. I think it is real grumpy cat. It is in fact the right


answer. Look at that face! What are you saying, you have to be grumpy to


be voting out? I recognise Dan Hammond, and I can't believe he


would have a cat in favour of Britain staying in the EU.


Yes, that's Leave campaigner Dan Hannan with his cat.


Because the fur has been flying on Twitter, with rival sides


in the referendum debate posting pics of their moggies


claiming their feline friends share their own views on the EU.


Kate Bevan and her cat Daphne. They have been supporting the Cats


against Brexit campaign, and James is here with his cat, they are


supporting Cats for Brexit. If you follow her cat flap on Twitter, you


can see her being mostly in other than out, she's burned a lot of time


on the sofa, and she is worried about her cat supplies from the EU.


How do you know that your cat prefers out? My cat is


pro-immigration, she was a rescue cat, and she is internationalist,


she is often seen in the neighbours' Gardens, and she doesn't like the


cage of Fortress Europe as you can see here, she feels that it is


somewhat stacked against in terms of the fat cats who bully her with


stories of recessions in cat food. I wonder how long you have been


preparing these answers and watching their behaviour! What difference


does it make whether we are a night of Europe as opposed to the


contented lives of all the cats I know? Generali, I am in favour of


staying in Europe, because I think there is a lot to be said for free


movement of labour and free movement of cats across garden fences. I can


see the free movement of your cat, who has just wandered off! The crew


will have to look after, look out for her later. I think she cares


about is in the house, and she wants to have a happy house, and we are


excited about Thursday, and I hope she is, to. So do you think the cats


feeling tense atmosphere? Do they react to their owners? I will take


her away from Tim, because I think he is a little allergic. Do they


notice if things are uptight in the house? I'm not so sure. And do she


respond to the atmosphere? She has been an social media making sure


people know where she stands on this thing. She is very clear about it.


She wants plenty of fish coming into the country, no restrictions are


plenty of catnip coming in. In the interest of BBC ballads, will dogs


be featured tomorrow? You can write to the programme editor! Has it


persuaded you at all. I had a long conversation with my cats that


morning about the economic case, and they are definitely in! They


probably ran out! The one o'clock news is starting


over on BBC One now. It has been a ten Mac One Show! I


had to get


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