04/07/2016 Daily Politics

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

British politics looks set to have another leadership election

as Nigel Farage announces he is stepping down

Mr Farage says he has achieved his lifetime ambition

to get Britain to leave the European Union, and the time

Theresa May says she will work tirelessly to control immigration

But as Home Secretary, the numbers have reached record highs.

So is she the right person to get a grip on migration?

We speak to her former Home Office minister.

Jeremy Corbyn begins another day as Labour leader,

as senior figures call for calm and a process of negotiation

to find a way out of the party's current crisis.

All that in the next hour and with us for the whole

of the programme today are the Conservative MP and former

He once worked for Theresa May at the Home Office so I guess

And we're also joined by the Shadow Energy

and Climate Change Secretary, Barry Gardiner, who's been in his

job for a whopping seven days which, in these strange times,

makes him one of the more experienced members

So, you wait ages for a leadership contest,

In the last hour Nigel Farage has announced that he is stepping

I have never been and I've never wanted to be a career politician.

My aim in being in politics was to get Britain out

That is what we voted for in that referendum two weeks ago

and that is why I now feel that I've done my bit, that I couldn't

possibly achieve more than we managed to get in that

referendum, and so I feel it's right that I should now stand

He's a Ukip member of the Welsh Assembly and an MEP.

Welcome. We've been here before, of course. Nigel Farage resigned and

then didn't resign. If he definitely going this time? I believe he is. He

said this is it. He campaigned on the big message that we want our

country back and then he said during a speech he wants his life back. I

believe he really does. As you just said in that clip, he's not a career

politician. He's never pretended to be one. He has achieved the greatest

pinnacle that any politician in British history could achieve, he's

one our country back, he has won back our democracy, our sovereignty,

and is going out on a high full foot it would be foolish not to. So who

on earth could replace him? Pretty big shoes to fill and without a

doubt, we are a very diverse party, with a lot of very skilled and

talented people on the sidelines. What about you? I've not really

considered it because it comes quite a shock. Nobody knew that this was

going to happen. You didn't know even though you are close to Nigel

Farage? I suspect because it was not telling anybody what the meeting was

going to be about today, what the press conference was going to be

about. He would not tell anybody, not even his closest confidants so I

suspected he would get his life back. Will you consider it? We will

have a meeting of the MEPs after, when we get to Strasbourg tonight,

and we don't want to fall into the same trap as the Conservatives, this

huge civil war for that we want to do this in a dignified way. We have

lots of talent, so let's see what happens and who is willing to

consider filling those big shoes. What's next for Nigel Farage, what

should you do? I think he needs to rest. We've all worked very hard,

we're all very tired. I think what he will do, he's going to be the

canary in the mine shaft. He's going to continue to go to Brussels. He's

going to keep an eye on the negotiations and he will lead the

British people, as will the rest of the MEPs, where we go wrong and if

we feel that article 50 is not going in the direction it should be going.

He also said in a press conference, he talked about the need for

experienced negotiators to be part of the Brexit team and Andrea

Leadsom, one of the leadership contenders for the Conservative

Party, was asked whether she would work with him and she didn't say one

way or the other. Could you see Nigel Farage in some way advising

and Andrea Leadsom team? I could see advising any team to be perfectly

honest with you. Any conservative? Absolutely, his greatest skill, no

one has more knowledge of the inner workings of the European Parliament

than Nigel Farage. You would be foolish not to have him in there,

even as just an adviser and let's face it, the 17.5 million votes we

got, great dealer that was because of the efforts of the work of Nigel

Farage. OK, thank you. Joining me now is Douglas Carswell,

the party's only MP. Your reaction to Nigel Farage

stepping down? I want to be generous. He spent 20 is pushing for

a referendum. We had the referendum and it was won by 17.5 million

people and he played a role in that. You are pleased to see him go? Six

months ago I was talking about the need for change. I do think all

parties benefit, it may not look like it today, this week, but all

parties ultimately benefit from having these internal democratic

inclusive contests to generate new ideas and allow the most able to get

to the top. Don't hold back, you treated us :-) when he announced he

was stepping down. I treat :-) is all the time, I'm very optimistic.

You are happy about it? There's a huge opportunity here. The cartel

party in Westminster, have, for years, taken for granted their

electorate. 17% of Labour MPs represent constituencies where a

majority of people wanted to leave the EU with a noble exception of

people like geezer Stuart, most are out of touch with the people. That

huge opportunity for us. And for you, as a successor? The chances of

me standing as leader are between Miller and zero. My role is to steer

Ukip away from the temptations of becoming an angry nativist party.

Has that happened? We went too far and I criticised it when we went too

far. It's not just morally wrong but electorally disastrous. This is a

decent, generous country. People have a right to feel anger with

their politicians but the answer to that is not to play on people's

fears and anger, but to promise the hope of something better and if we

can do that, we can be part of a great change of I never want to be a

party with the Archbishop of Canterbury feels compelled to

criticise the things people say. Is that why you were critical of Nigel

Farage's breaking point poster? Yes, because it was deeply wrong at every

time I see someone in politics who tries to get votes by playing on a

sense of other, whether on the left trying to demonise the 1% or on the

right, demonising the outsider, it's incumbent upon us to speak out and

say it's wrong. Do you accept it was disloyal? It was loyal to my

constituents and the hope of a happy about a country. What will it do to

your future in the party? Nigel Farage has decided his future in

Ukip but yours hangs in the balance so just to be cleared to viewers,

are the executive going to expel you from the party because of my

criticism? I don't know. I've been two different parties in as many

years for that you can join a party for 25 quid online. Some parties are

good and others are less good provided decent people get involved,

this is about in politics and my main determination is to make sure

Brexit works. 48% of these people have doubts about leaving and we now

need to make sure there's a new national consensus, which is far

more important to me than Tweedledee versus Tweedledum in Westminster. So

who should lead Ukip? Someone generous and decent. I want to make

sure it a general liberal inclusive script, no Tim Akers of, and need to

offer angry voters the promise of something better. Do you think the

anger was stirred up by Nigel Farage, and this returned to decent

politics was because is not decent and Nigel Farage? There's been many

occasions in the past 6-12 months where I have spoken very clearly,

after the old by-election, implying postal vote and by extension a

particular type of voter is somehow at fault was wrong. I spoke out

clearly against that at the time. All of this is wrong, the poster, I

don't think it's decent for political leaders in this country to

try to attract votes by demonising. Look, politics is about getting

everyone to mark their cross on the same bit of paper. It should be

about bringing people together and I think, if we have a leader whose

values are in tune with that, the sky is a limit, we can displace.

When it's your dinner party if it's not fulfilling the criteria? That

will it be your party? I'm more interested in trying to make Brexit

work and play not ever go like an injury that. Political parties are

not the be all and end all. Politics are like cookies in the nest. Maybe

we need a different type of party. What you to that? Political parties,

but some are better than others and I applaud him for his stance against

the excesses of Nigel Farage, the nudge nudge, a bit racist, the

phrase, I'm not racist but, could be invented the things Nigel Farage has

done. You're not saying he's actually racist? No, I'm not, but he

encourages feelings that are unhelpful and destructive and that's

what is always done in a split a good career, so it generous, I don't

dislike him personally, but I'm glad he's leaving front-line politics. I

think it's good for politics in this country. What is your reaction to

his resignation? I am very pleased he has decided to take a back-seat.

I would be surprised if he does. If he does take a back-seat? You think

you be back in the front line politics in what way? In some form

or other, I think he's... He's somebody addicted to the camera. I

think that's an addiction that former politicians find very

difficult to break away from. Do you agree that Nigel Farage can't give

it up? You need to talk to Nigel about this. I'm interested in making

sure we leave the EU and have a new national consensus. We are basically

a liberal outward looking country and I campaigned for 20 is to get us

out of the EU because I think the EU is actually contrary to the liberal

open tradition. OK, thank you very much.

Theresa May's leadership campaign has had a significant boost this

morning with the endorsement of her Cabinet colleague,

Writing in today's Telegraph, he says Mrs May has

the character and qualities to take Britain forward.

And he also says it's crucial to end EU free movement

Immigration is a key issue for the next leader so what are

All five candidates stood on the Conservative election

manifesto to bring migration down to the "tens of thousands".

But last year, net migration topped 330,000, of which EU-only net

Yesterday, Theresa May insisted that the message from the referendum

was that the government needed to "bring control into movement

of people" coming into the UK from the EU.

But she hinted that the status of EU nationals in the UK and Britons

living on the continent would also have to be part of any negotiations

Launching his campaign last week, Stephen Crabb, the other contender

for the Conservative leadership who backed the Remain campaign,

said control over immigration would be a "red line"

And Leave campaigners such as Michael Gove,

Andrea Leadsom and Liam Fox have argued during the referendum

campaign that the UK should introduce a points-based system

for managing migrant applications, similar to that used by Australia.

Joining us now is the Conservative MP, Jacob Rees-Mogg,

who is backing Michael Gove to be the next leader.

Welcome to the programme. I'll come to the moment. Is Theresa May the

right person to negotiate immigration figures on her watch, it

soared and her record is not inspire confidence. Absolutely because

immigration, as we have seen in the past 15 years, going back through

three governments, is a hugely difficult issue. You have to balance

the needs of this country economic league with getting the brightest

and the best here with the desire for control and actually bringing

down the numbers. Many successful measures have been taken, the

closure of 800 bogus colleges in Taiwan but even so the numbers have

gone up. But they're not successful at the numbers go up and you work

with Theresa May in the office of immigration and under your watch it

has gone up. It's gone down and back up again, showing the difficulties

but what I think is key is to make sure you strike that right balance

and, in the new disposition we find ourselves, where we can have an

immigration policy that applies to all countries, then the end of the

old system of free movement and the movement to a new system of control

am combining that with the capacity to keep our economy as strong as

possible, is hugely detailed and Teresa has a much better

qualification that anybody else. You say that but of course, on that

issue of actually a trade-off, which is what Philip Hammond was talking

about today between the economy and immigration, which is still pledged

to bring net migration down to tens of thousands?

We clearly need to bring it down lower. Theresa May has not set it

out yet. We all wanted to come down. This idea that you should announce

it is all fine, every British expat in Europe is fine, every European

expat here is fine, to saying now that there is going to be no change

is just a sign of an experience, frankly. Clearly that is a big

negotiating card that we do not want to give away at this point. Many

people will be worried by the implication that this will be part

of the negotiation, EU nationals here now, but Michael Gove is clear

it shouldn't be. Yellow -- I disagree with Damien. I think it is

a question of what is the right thing to do about these individuals.

I thought the free movement of people wouldn't -- within the

European Union was a mistake. But when these people have done nothing

wrong, and to throw their lives into the air as part of a negotiation, it

is the wrong thing to do, a bad way to treat people. But in terms of

reducing the numbers, it would have to be? From the day we leave, we

should ensure that people come here on the same basis from India is from

Italy. E4 wheelie, we should make sure the people who arrived here

before June 23 does not inherit these rights. It would be wrong to

say to polish people, to French people, that they should leave. It

would be wrong. The problem is I want to give the same guarantees to

British ex-patriots. In an ideal world, absolutely, we would get to a

point where nobody is inconvenienced. First of all, we

cannot control what other governments do to British expats.

That is why saying whatever happens, nothing will change now, is a lack

of experience. What you have just said, from the moment we exit,

everybody will be able to stay, that is fine. What will happen between

now and then? That is why we must not extend rights to people from now

on. We have to set a date. When would be a sensible date? I think it

should be announced by the leadership contenders so people

would know. We have to say and it has to be soon. If you say anyone

who comes in the next couple of years can stay forever, that would

encourage a rush of people. But I do disagree with Damien about using

this as a bargaining chip. I think sometimes you have to do the right

thing. You have to remember you are dealing with individual lives. That

is more important than using it as a bargaining chip in the negotiations.

How do you protect the lives of it is expats? Politics without some

moral backbone is without value. I would be very surprised. We heard

the Maltese Prime Minister, which has the highest percentage of

British expats to their population, you would not dream of asking them

to leave. Are you sure you would get that agreement from Spain, from

France, where there are hundreds of thousands of British people, in a

negotiation? I think it would be extraordinary if we behave

generously, that they would behave meanly in return. Let's talk about

an Australian points-based system, which is being advocated by Michael

Gove. Will that bring migration down to tens of thousands? It depends how

you set the system. You determine the points for the skills you need

and work out how many people you need for jobs that are available. It

would have to be awfully narrow to bring it down by hundreds of

thousands? It would have to be more narrow vanities. It is possible to

do. Immigration was in the tens of thousands until the 1990s. It has

got out of control in the last 20 years. It would be impossible to go

back to a level of control. It is silly to pretend it is easy. Do you

support a points-based system? The problem for the Australian system is

that it does not achieve what it set out to achieve. You could let nobody

in but I hope that is not a theory that will ever be put into practice.

That could be hugely damaging. You said during the referendum campaign

that such a system would wreck the economy. The more complexities you

put into it, the more difficult it is for firms and for individuals...

If someone doesn't know whether the rules are going to be changed next

year, saw their qualifications may not apply, you do actually get a lot

of friction in the system. You have to create a huge bureaucracy to make

it work. What is your view? John McDonnell agrees with Jacob

Rees-Mogg, that people already here, EU nationals, should be safe in the

knowledge they should stay. Do you agree to absolutely. My constituency

of Brent North is the first constituency in the country that had

more people in the last election voting were born outside of the UK

than were born in it. How much should immigration come down? Much

of that has been through the eastern migration in Europe -- migration --

Eastern European migration. There were transitional controls. Not for

Poland. That is absolutely right. What we have got is one of the most

vibrant economies in north-west London. So you don't think

immigration should come down? No, I didn't say that. What has happened

with the migration, and perhaps Jacob should take it on board,

although I agree with his moral point, he needs to consider that

when we widen immigration from India to Italy, we then see the widening

of the commodification of labour. That presents its own problems, the

very problems that he is talking about, where people in this country

feel alienate it by the migration flows that have taken place, the

undermining of the old politics of place. That will accentuate. Very

briefly, this legal challenge on Parliament having to actually

trigger or agree that only the Prime Minister can invoke article 50, will

that get anywhere? I don't think it well. I have spoken to a legal

expert who said the purpose of the communities act -- European

Communities Act, was to bring EU law into British law, not to determine

our membership. And that the referendum act made it clear there

would be an advisory board that the government could then act on. I

think you might be arguing that exercising Article 50 by the

prerogative power would have an implication for one act, it would be

fully in accordance with the second and later act. The liver act would

be deemed superior. All the king's horses

and all the king's men couldn't put But Len McCluskey thinks

he can put he can put the Labour Party back together,

and keep Jeremy Corbyn as its leader, as he told

Andrew Marr yesterday. Trade unions have always been

the rock, the anchor, that has kept the Labour ship steady

in stormy seas and what I'm saying is that, because this

coup has now failed, the trade unions can broker a peace,

with Jeremy as our leader and the genuine concerns of the PLP,

we can bring people together, and I'm calling upon Angela Eagle

and Owen Smith and anybody else What kind of deal

could you offer them? You would bring in a

different shadow cabinet? We would bring both parties together

and resolve this issue. Len McCluskey is going to stage the

Labour Party back together and keep Jeremy Corbyn as leader. If he does

do -- do that, you might be up for a Nobel Peace Prize? I don't think

Glenn would want a peace prize. It is important that we are clear that

negotiations have to happen. Should it be united by Len McCluskey? It

should be somebody trusted within the trade union. I think Frances

O'Grady would be an excellent choice. There are other potential

choices. I put John Prescott's name in the frame yesterday. He is

somebody who has a tradition of negotiating between Labour leaders.

He certainly does. It wasn't as bad then as it is now. I don't know.

More than that, he is somebody who is the rank and file of the party

and people trust. Party members know he has party members interests at

heart. More so than Len McCluskey? ECM more honest broker? I didn't

hear Len McCluskey ask for the job. I think he simply said that the

trade union movement could do it. And I agree with that. I think

Frances O'Grady would be an excellent choice. How long will you

stay in the shadow cabinet if this impasse continues? I am there at the

invitation of the leader and I will stay there until the invitation is

no longer extended. Angela Eagle has said she will stand if the impasse

continues. What do you say to her? That is the party rules. The party

rules are very clear. Should she stand? The only way of having an

election, the only way of triggering a change in leader is to challenge.

Do you think that should happen? Would it be better now for someone

to challenge for the leadership and just have it out? What we need to do

is get all sides together and have them talk to each other. At the

moment it is being talked through proxy and I don't think that helps.

Even without those talks, could Jeremy Corbyn continue as leader?

Absolutely. He has not had the support of the vast majority of MPs

since becoming leader. He had 36 nominations, that was all, in the

ballot the other day he actually got 40. In effect, his approval rating

has gone. The key point here is that for the past nine months the Labour

Party has been functioning on that basis, that the vast majority of the

Parliamentary party do not like the leader, they would have somebody

else. The difference here is that people within the PLP have decided

that they want to, in effect, conducted through to get rid of him

instead of challenging through the party process. You are saying it

would be better to challenge than to wait for him to stand down? The only

way constitutionally to depose a sitting leader of the Labour

Party... Unless he stands down. I said to depose. If Corbyn stays, the

pressure will be on to replace Labour MPs, to deselect the 176 MPs

who failed to vote for Jeremy Corbyn and replace them with people who are

sympathetic at grassroots level. Is that what he would like to see to

the first thing I said at shadow cabinet last week was that we had to

have absolute clarity, that anybody who was harassing, intimidating or

threatening sitting MPs, if they were party members, should be very

clear, that if they were found guilty, they would be thrown out of

the party. We are not going to have a witch hunt within the Labour

Party. That would be a disaster. Are you sure? I am telling you my view.

It would be a disaster to do that. Members of Parliament do a difficult

job, they are elected by constituents and they should not be

levered out by people who do not have the best interest of the party

and the wider public at heart. Do you sometimes wake up in the morning

and wonder how the Labour Party got into this mess? I think politics is

a very strange profession. Now, before we go, if you want

to hear more on all these stories, I will be joining Adam

online in one minute, for another 20 minutes,

to take your questions and show you our programme from behind

the scenes in our newsroom. Just follow the link

to the BBC News Facebook page. Can you believe how politics has

turned out in the last couple of weeks? It is on fast forward at the

moment. A very strange period. Could you have predicted Anier but? Not

really. It is politics. My guest will be former Labour

minister Tessa Jowell.