05/07/2016 Daily Politics


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will be difficult. It might be at the start, five years in, ten or 15.


You want to make sure as a family, as an individual, but


Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.


Voting gets underway in the Conservative leadership


election as the five candidates vying to take over


from David Cameron hope they'll get enough support to avoid crashing


Labour's deputy leader Tom Watson is meeting the big unions


in what is described as a last roll of the dice to persuade


The Governor of the Bank Of England Mark Carney warns of challenging


times ahead as he assesses the impact of the vote to leave


And hundreds of schools across England are closed today


as teachers strike over pay, workloads and school funding.


And with us for the whole of the programme today is the former


Labour Culture Secretary Tessa Jowell.


But first, the Governor of the Bank Of England has warned


that the UK faces a challenging economic outlook following


Speaking in the last hour, Mark Carney said that some


of the risks he warned about before the vote to leave


The number of vulnerable households could increase


with a tougher economic outlook and potential


-- with a tougher economic outlook and potential tightening


In particular, there is growing evidence of uncertainty


about the referendum had delayed major economic decisions such


as business investment, construction and housing market activity.


Our business correspondent Jonty Bloom joins me now.


What else did he have to say? In particular, he is worried about


the amount of lending in the economy, that is why he has weakened


the rules for the banks, they have more capital they can lend, about


?150 billion will be released. A sign of how important he thinks it


is the banks keep lending. The risks are quite significant,


especially with commercial property. He says the amount of foreign


investment in commercial property fell by half in the first three


months. Yesterday, we saw Standard Life frees one of its property funds


so no one could take their money out so there would be no run on people


taking money out. People need to invest here to improve our trade


deficit. How worried should we be about the


risks Mark Carney has said the board about before the vote?


Mark Carney is being serious and very worried. He says the Bank of


England is taking a significant number of steps to ameliorate the


worst effects. Today, we have had that extra


borrowing. We are expecting there will be a cut in interest rates down


to 0.25%, even lower. Also, the Bank of England has said


there is the opportunity for more quantitative easing when they print


money and release it. They have been doing that since the credit crunch


and could be doing even more. In terms of other monetary policy,


the currency rates and stock market, have they recovered since the


initial dip? That was put to him, why are you


worried when the stock market has recovered? He said the pound is


still down 10%. Good when we need to export more. But if you look at


house-builders, they are significantly lower. He is worried


signs that the property market is slowing down, construction has


halted in the private sector. Bank shares are down 20%, the domestic


share market, the FTSE 250, that is markedly lower as well. All those


things pointed to the market agreeing with Mark Carney we have


serious problems. Is this the right action to take in


what was predicted to be short-term instability?


I am sure it is the right action to take. As Jonty said, this is


realising the reality of all the warnings Mark Carney and other


experts so derided by Michael Gove gave before the referendum.


What is important is people at home grow to understand just what the


scale of economic uncertainty and instability has been created by


this. Mark Carney is trying to reassure


people. He should be reassuring. The fact is


his judgments about the economy are the reverse of what was being


predicted six months ago when we were beginning to see growth and


expecting to see an increase in interest rates, as evidence of the


strength of the economy. Although we don't know what will


happen in the next year. Of course we don't. This is a


worrying time, mortgage lending going down, as Jonty said, the


construction industry. If house prices came down in London


that might not be bad. That might not be such a bad thing.


Different in other parts of the country. London is a very special


case. This is now the reality of the


uncertainty created by Brexit rolling out.


That is why there is an urgent need to create certainty about the terms


of negotiation. We will talk about the terms of


negotiation in a few minutes. The question for today


is when Nigel Farage infamously insulted then European Council


President Herman Van Rompuy in 2010, Was it a) never


having a "proper job" b) having the "charisma


of a damp rag" c) being akin to a


"low-grade bank clerk" At the end of the show Tessa


will give us the correct answer. Voting is under way


in Westminster in the first round of the Conservative Party's


leadership election with the five candidates vying


for the votes of 330 Here's Giles with the low-down


on the candidates and the contest. It has already had


Shakespearean overtones. But the stage is now set for a bid


not just to be Conservative Party leader but Prime Minister of a UK


set on being outside the EU. One of the players so many assumed


would take a starring if not the starring role did not even make


it out of the wings. Ahead of the first vote


of Conservative MPs on Tuesday, we don't have five guys,


and none of them are called Mo. Indeed, it is a woman


who seems to have the big mo, the big political momentum


at the moment. Theresa May was always


likely to run. She was Remain but kept a low


profile during the Her pitch has been


summed up as a serious She is, they say, the safe pair


of hands on the tiller. Former special advisers are helping


to run her campaign and she has backing


from the Daily Mail newspaper. And in the Cabinet, Michael Fallon,


Patrick McLaughlin, Also the Cabinet Office's Matt


Hancock and significant I want someone who has performed


and delivered at the highest level, That was Theresa May


from the beginning. Days ago he was going to run


Boris Johnson's campaign until he buried him in a publicly


brutal act which Boris supporters Now, one of the leaders


of the Leave campaign, the reluctant Gove seems to want


the job like never before, Skills Minister Nick Boles, a Boris


switcher, is running his campaign. His support includes


John Whittingdale and Nicky Morgan. He had reluctantly decided this


was the course of action But he has seen the situation,


and has stepped up to deal with it. Stephen Crabb has long


been spotted as future For some, that is


still in the future. He is running on a ticket


with Business Secretary Sajid Javid But both were Remain


in the referendum and that is Apart from being in the Cabinet,


they have no significant big support but are picking up


new and younger MPs. -- I see him as one


of the new generation, That is something incredibly


important about the future We need someone who can reach


out beyond Westminster. Andrea Leadsom is not


a household name but she made a name beyond Westminster


with her contribution A staunch Leave campaigner and with


39 MPs on board to reflect that. Andrea stands head and shoulders,


and brings a freshness. She is tough but with a positive


outlook on politics. Then there is Liam Fox,


a veteran of leadership campaigns A former Cabinet Minister keen


to get back into He was on the other side


of the debate of the referendum to me but he is the person


to bring us together. He has experience in Government


and is widely liked in the country, as a doctor with his background,


the sort of person people can see One of these five will not just have


to manage a bruised party Simultaneously focusing on how


they separate the UK Let's get the latest


from our assistant political editor Norman Smith who's outside


the committee room in Parliament Have you had your ear against the


door? I can see other journalists, what is going on?


They are right down the end of the committee corridor this time.


All these rooms are booked. I have chatted with Michael Gove who said


he is still in there fighting but only just I suspect because you sent


the damage done to him by his fratricide on Boris Johnson, that


may have hampered his campaign. If you are looking for who will


emerge to take on Theresa May, then increasingly it is beginning to look


like Andrea Leadsom as the Brexit contender to take a run. She seems


to be ahead in terms of the public nominations.


That said, there has been a vigorous counter briefing by Team go


suggesting she lacks experience, that her performs at the hustings


last night was woeful. One Tory minister said to me, we are use to


people not answering questions because we don't answer questions,


and she wasn't answering questions. There is the view she is still


fairly new, and do you really want her to be Prime Minister at such an


uncertain time? That said, Michael Gove has an


awfully long way to come back if he is to achieve second place. That is


the real tussle. We will get an indication when we get the results


announced this evening. Let us look at the other end of the


stale, who is likely to be dropping out first?


If you look at the names declared so far, it would look as if Liam Fox is


potentially the most vulnerable.


There is a view that last night he stressed a lot of big foreign policy


areas and there is a view that maybe he is not pitching for the top job


so much but he might be pitching the Foreign Secretary, defence, that


might be his game. Stephen Crabb, there is a view it is a bit early


for him his pitch as a true blue conservatives, there is mileage in


that but maybe this contest is not his contest.


He also came unstuck this morning on the Today programme when quizzed


about the idea of borrowing ?100 billion to pump into infrastructure.


That seems to chuck in the bin all pounds for deficit reduction. I am


not sure that has been nailed down. He might struggle to make the final


cut. Those two are probably most


vulnerable. Thank you.


We've been joined by the Conservative MP, Bill Cash.


You have spent your career campaigning on the European Union.


The UK has voted to leave but there are many different ways that Britain


could actually x it the EU. What type of Brexit should Britain aim


for? First of all, we need a proper trade


agreement. You don't need to be a member of the EU to trade with the


EU. We have heard from Australia, New Zealand, even John Kerry of


America saying they would trade with us. We have a positive opportunity.


We will do it from a position of strength, we are the fifth largest


economy in the world. We have a trading record that goes back


centuries. Bilateral agreements. What about


access to the single market, should Britain be part of it or have access


to it? You can't actually be in the single


market governed by European laws. Once your appeal the 1972 act, you


are out. he can work at bilateral relations


with other states and that will happen. You are talking about


individual bilateral agreements with all the 27 members? Andrea Ledsom


has already been talking, she is a fantastic candidate, the people who


have massive international experience of dealing with the EU


and the bottom line is that we will be able to achieve it just as other


countries have. Let me get direction of the two general. He says we will


not be part of the single market, we might want to gain access by


bilateral treaties, could mean we wouldn't have to sign up to the


other conditions of being a member of the European Union, ie freedom of


movement. Though and I overuse of established the degree of profound


difference between us on this, but I respect his consistency -- bill and


I. It would untold damage to our economy if we are excluded as a


result of the Brexit terms to the single market. Because we are denied


access to a trading market of 500 million people which has contributed


40% of our trade. Of course, the issue which is linked to that is the


clear conditionality from everything we have heard from the Council of


ministers today, that freedom of movement is inextricably linked to


access to the single market. Which is why none of these questions can


be answered at the moment because we are in a no man's land. But we need


to hear that from the candidates for the Conservative leadership? We do.


We now need to open discussions with Europe about what the framework for


Brexit terms would be. Theresa May has adjusted her priority would be


to negotiate some sort of access for the UK to the single market, as you


have clearly said, that would include freedom of movement, the two


cannot be broken. Beyond that we don't quite know what's going to be


in terms of negotiation, that's why we have to start discussions,


without triggering Article 50. Not yet. I think when it should be


triggered is a judgment to be made once there is a new Prime Minister,


but the existing Prime Minister, who has a duty to maintain government,


should start engaging with other European ministers about the terms.


One should Britain trigger it? Will run a massive trade deficit every


year with the other 27 member states, other ?62 billion a year in


exports and imports. Why would we want to deny access to that massive


market? We would be dealing with them through the trading


arrangements that would be established. Listen. If I may.


Basically, Germany on the other hand, has a trade surplus with the


same 27 member states of 82 billion. This is not a single market, it's a


German single operation. How long will it take to set up all those


trade agreements? The average time it takes to set up, Peter Lilley has


been doing a lot of work on this and it's not as long as people are


making out, and maybe a couple of years or so but not as long as


people think. The evidence from really experienced negotiators is it


doesn't take as long as some are claiming. You are clear that the


candidates who have thrown their hat into the ring have different views


about how the negotiations should proceed. That is why I'm supporting


Andrea Ledsom, she has the experience, she can deliver this.


She has the most massive experience in the setting up, she


understands... One should shape if she wins, drug Article 50? -- when


should she, if she wins drug Article 50. It means reasonably soon. I will


say this. It is going to start sooner or later, but actually right


now, the situation is bedevilled by this proposal to go to the courts.


What do you think about this proposal? Lets just say what it is.


You are a strong defender of the sovereignty of Parliament. Why


shouldn't the House of Commons have a vote on Brexit before the Prime


Minister formally triggers article 50? Without going into detail, the


argument are based on a complete misconception about the European


Community. But what about the idea of the 70 of Parliament? Because the


EU institutions, they put out a statement on June 29, all the member


states and institutions have said it is the government to make the


decision and by constitutional law it belongs to the prerogative, it's


a matter for the government to bring it into effect. Except you did argue


and others did argue about line by line on the Maastricht Treaty, for


example? Why can't Parliament have a chance? I think there are two


points. The constitutional laws would say broadly that democracy


trumps interpretation of the consideration or position and there


has been a referendum which concluded that we should leave the


EU. That's the first point. I think the second point is that it will be


important for Parliament to be in gauge in this, and I think that we


have two be clear about the scale, if this is the case, of unforeseen


detriment to the economy and well-being of people in the UK, as a


result of leaving the EU. You think they should be a second referendum


if there is a clear change in public mood? I don't think there should but


there should be a critical issue and what I expect to be a general


election which a new Prime Minister is elected. If you are doing it


shouldn't be a separate act of Parliament before negotiations are


actually triggered, then it's going to be decided, the Brexit


negotiations will be decided by Tory grassroots members in the shires? We


already have an act of Parliament, it's called the European Union


referendum act, which depleted the basis on which we go forward. But we


don't know what Brexit is going to look like. People will say that


broadly speaking, of course there was that act of Parliament in place


is it your view of Brexit or Theresa May's view? They are very different


as you have admitted. I can only see that it is quite clear that Andrea


Ledsom and those who agree with her and those like myself are quite


clear about this. Article 50 will be invoked almost certainly in the


reasonably near future but not until we have managed... That was for the


referendum was about. That was to leave and we didn't know what shape


it's going to be, now we're getting a flavour, shouldn't Parliament have


a say? That was inherited the outcome of the referendum, the


verdict has been given, leave means leave, entry is right and able to


deal with the Mandarin problem which is reversing the civil service --


Andrea is right. You need a strong character who truly understands the


European issue to deal with all that. I think the Brexiteers are too


willing to live with the uncertainty regardless of the cost to the


country. This country has got to continue to have a functioning


government will stop it well. The promised to should be engaged in


early stages of discussion now in the remaining months. The Prime


Minister should be. It doesn't look too good at the moment for your


party. Can I come back to this issue, it is right for Britain's


feature outside the EU to be shaped by 330 MPs and the ballots of


grassroots members and then at the general election for the country to


decide and vote on in terms of Brexit? We had presented the ocean


when John Major took over. -- the same situation. I think there's a


great deal of Armageddon pulp on the economy and the constitution. We had


percentage ocean with Gordon Brown. He was fatally flawed. -- we had the


same situation. I think he was floored for other reasons. Andrea


Ledsom will be extremely good as a Prime Minister. The new Prime


Minister should call a general election. What about the reports of


postings that Andrea Ledsom, according to one Tory MP, said it


was a car crash performance and went down as a cup of cold sick? I think


that is extremely wrong and typical of the kind of disinformation that


gets put out. Other people who weren't there who are commenting...


This is an election people sometimes say things to diminish the chances


of other people. I don't agree with that verdict, Andrea did a very good


job, she was brilliant in the press conference earlier in the day and in


other meetings, she is a first-class candidate and I say she should be


the next Prime Minister. I think that clue! -- that clue!


Jeremy Corbyn may still have more gaps in his Shadow front bench team


than the England football team's defence but the Labour


leader is still in post despite 80% of his MPs


At last night's meeting of the parliamentary Labour Party,


the deputy leader Tom Watson said he would meet union representatives


today as a last role of the dice in the leadership crisis,


presumably to ask them to help persuade Mr Corbyn to stand aside.


If Mr Corbyn refuses, he faces a leadership challenge


and the question will then be, does he need to secure scores


of nominations to get back onto the ballot paper?


Mark Lobel has been getting to grips with the Labour Party rule book.


I want to reach out to all our members. Despite his large ditch


appeal for party unity yesterday, at least one MP, Angela Eagle, says she


will challenge his leadership if he doesn't resign. But many fear a


contest will be highly acrimonious and may end up in the courts,


because of differing interpretations of Labour Party rules about how a


contender makes the ballot. The rules state where there is no


vacancy, nominations may be sought...


That means at least 51 MPs or MEPs. Jeremy Corbyn's ally, John


McDonnell, insisted mystical than would automatically make the ballot.


He is the leader of the Labour Party, you staying leader of the


Labour Party and if there is a challenge, they will be a democratic


election, Germany will stand, he is automatically on the ballot paper


under our rules. -- Jeremy will stand.


They say these words mean only challenges and not the incumbent


need to get MPs to back their nomination, which is important


because mystical than would struggle to get enough MPs to back him after


the no-confidence vote last week. One senior insider told with they


were divided for a different reason, to protect the incumbent from


frivolous challenges to their leadership such as happened to


Gordon Brown when he was Prime Minister. The insider insisted it


was meant to exclude the incumbent from needing nominations of MPs. And


those on the anti-Corbin Wing point to the words in the nomination,


which they say underline the fact that any nominee would need the


support of MPs to take part, a point underlined by Neil Kinnock this


weekend. The cottage ocean provides, very sensibly, for a party in


Parliament -- the constitution. And also provides that the leader of the


party must have a substantial amount of backing from Labour members of


Parliament. So who would resolve this dispute? This man, Ian McNicol.


We have spoken to the former general secretary who told me he alone often


made clear what the rules were in the past in similar circumstances.


Reports suggest he has already received legal advice. What could


that have been? We spoke to a lawyer who advises the Labour Party on


issues like this. There is a clash of interpretation of the rules,


they're not fully thought through and that has left an ambiguity which


is why, as I understand it, the party and the newspapers are getting


conflicting legal advice on this. Clear as mud then! If there are


still doubts about the rules, then the ab initio to committee decides


-- administrative committee. It is made of the trade unions, the


socialist societies and black Asian and polarity representatives, the


constituency Labour parties, evenly balanced and labour councillors who


are not on the side of Jeremy Corbyn like the PLP members. Overall the


estimate 60 members in favour and 17 against.


To answer that, from the BBC's political research


Hi, Mark, it is not as simple as that.


It is not like a one member, one vote process where everyone puts


Not even a big vote at the end of any NTC decision.


It is a mixture of compromise and consensus.


You need to win people over from different sections of the NEC.


If they state that Jeremy Corbyn needs to find and emissions or not,


that would probably be followed. If not then ultimately they could be a


legal challenge by one side or the other and this might end up in the


High Court. Now you can see what both sides want to avoid the need


for an embarrassing showdown. And we've been joined from Glasgow


by Rhea Wolfson who is standing for election to Labour's


NEC this summer. At least four of the 40 MPs who


backed Germany, McCutcheon Jeremy Corbyn have now changed their mind


and think he should stand down, is in his position now not tenable?


I think it is difficult and harmful to the party the way people are


interacting. But I don't think it is untenable, as long as Jeremy sticks


to the Prince was he stood for which is respect for the membership, and


democracy. I hope the Parliamentary Labour Party also fall in ninth and


recognise Jeremy is standing not just for himself but for the


members. Isn't that a naive view. They won't


fall in line. 80% are clear they want him to go.


I think it is hopeful rather than naive.


I have spent the last week travelling all over the country


speaking to thousands of members as part of this campaign, and to talk


about Jeremy Corbyn and the leadership. They are devastated.


They hope as party activists they can continue advocating for the


party. What evidence is there Jeremy Corbyn


has lost the support of the Labour Party membership?


Polling shows his support is collapsing.


It doesn't show it is collapsing. The numbers who come up to me in the


street and say, can't you get a new leader, the Labour Party is dying.


In the last two meetings of the Parliamentary Labour Party, they


were so passionate, so upset, so angry about Jeremy Corbyn's refusal


to stand down. The rules as your film showed may be


unclear and open to interpretation. What is not unclear if there is no


confidence in Jeremy Corbyn in the Parliamentary Labour Party.


He is now bound to maintain support of his MPs.


He has lost that. Part of that is compounded by the degree of


intimidation and abuse, the fear with which members, Labour MPs's


staff coming to work every day, they fear the threat of intimidation and


worse. Before that, members are equally


upset, we hear, and devastated, by this challenge to Jeremy Corbyn who


was democratically elected. Do you accept the party is split between


the Parliamentary party and its membership?


I don't. That presumes that Members of Parliament are not in touch with


their members, engaging with their members every weekend. They were


bringing back to the Parliamentary party last night and the week before


the result of consultation with activists who overwhelmingly by


their accounts one Jeremy Corbyn to do the decent thing for the Labour


Party and stand down. What do you say about this anecdotal


evidence and claims from MPs of intimidation and fear?


If MPs are suffering this, it is not acceptable, it is not the mood I


have seen at the meetings I have been to. It has been sadness and


frustration but not intimidation or anger.


Anecdotally the party is split. At the rallies we have been having,


25,000 people have engaged, the membership has grown by over 60,000.


Over half had joined to support Jeremy Corbyn. It is a fallacy to


save his support is collapsing. Whilst I recognise there is a


division, clearly the PLP are not listening to all their members.


Angela Eagle, her local constituency passed a motion in support of Jeremy


Corbyn. I feel frustrated and that is


replicated across the country. What do you say? I talked to Angela,


she faced homophobic abuse at that meeting. Talked to MPs around the


country. Under the influence of momentum, activists and Members of


Parliament and their staff are facing, day in, day out, harassment,


and in some cases intimidation. And I famously remember, I was in


the Labour Party fighting all this in the 1980s, that was militant


then, it is momentum now, they are different RDs. But they are neither


bodies respecting the wider electorate that monster see a Labour


Government. That respect is slipping further and further. That is what


was talked about last night at the Parliamentary Labour Party by Neil


Kinnock. He knows about this from the 1980s,


he reminded MPs that people in supermarkets told them Ed Miliband


was not electable and asked to apply that supermarket test to Jeremy


Corbyn, which he passed it? I think he would.


You need to get out more. That is insulting that I am not on


the doorstep. I am a party activist. I have been beside you, I have


campaigned everywhere, in Scotland for the Scottish elections and


working hard for the council elections. So do these momentum


activists. They are not on the fringes of the party. Councillors


and local representatives are involved. It is insulting to say


otherwise. Do you agree if it carries on there


will be a split because there is nothing to reconcile both sides of


the party. Shouldn't it be a case that you and the MPs left and the


Labour Party members form a new party? Or Tessa Jowell does the


same. No, me and those of my politics are


not leaving the Labour Party. We are here to make sure the Labour Party


has a prospect of representing the people of this country in


Government. What do you say?


There should be no split in the party, it would be devastating for


those who need a Labour Government. I am devastated we are not governing


at the moment. It is really sad. I don't want a split.


You wouldn't suggest there should be some declaration of Independence by


MPs against Jeremy Corbyn. There would be more of you, you could set


up in opposition. This reminds me of a great


decoration of Ted Knight Way back in the early 1980s when he stood up at


a public meeting and said there can be no compromise with the


electorate. It is the people of this country who want a Labour Party they


can believe in, who are being so badly let down by Jeremy Corbyn's


refusal to do the decent thing in the interests of our party.


Rhea Wolfson, we know there will be another plea for him to go.


I hope the unions continue to support Jeremy Corbyn. And I will


stand by him as he continues to represent the membership of the


Labour Party. While much of Westminster is focused


on the small matter of who should be the Prime Minister and Leader


Of The Opposition, teachers across England are out


on a one-day strike. The National Union Of Teachers


called the strike over pay, Our education dditor


Branwen Jeffreys joins us 3000 teachers have set off on a


march through the city. Is there anything different to this strike


and to previous one-day strikes by teachers?


The focus of all the teachers who set off if you minutes ago from


here, several hundreds of them, is mainly about education funding. They


point to figures from the Independent Institute for fiscal in


which show although the amount of money spent on schools is going up,


the amount per pupil is going to fall over the next few years. They


say that is leading to job losses with more expected in the future,


and bigger class sizes. Just a quarter of the new team members


actually voted in the ballot other amongst those who did the support


was overwhelming. Why was it such a low turnout in


terms of the ones who decided to take part in the ballot if there is


such strength of feeling about educating -- education funding?


It is an exceptionally low turnout, there is a dispute with the


Government, and the NAS UWT. Some are waiting for the pay review body


on what they should be paid, to come back.


I understand that could be in the next couple of days, many teachers


will be waiting to see what the offer is from the Government


although we know pay restraint across the public sector remains in


place. There is no doubt some of the


concerns are more widely shared. Initial information from around the


country is quite a lot of schools are open and this strike is quite


patchy. Perhaps some teachers don't feel


motivated enough at the moment to come out on strike on these issues.


One other interesting thing this morning we had BMA junior doctors


representatives who are themselves balloting on their own industrial


action, here in support of the entity.


There was a time when the BMA and a new would have been unlikely


bedfellows. We've been joined by the acting


general secretary of the National Union of Teachers,


Kevin Courtney, and by Toby Young, who set up


a Free School in west London. We also asked the Department


for Education for an interview with a minister, but none


was available. Kevin Courtney, are you playing


politics with children's future as the Education Secretary has said?


Not at all, we are reticulated a demand, we are on strike for our


young people. We are hearing stories of schools were class sizes are


going up to 35, where art, dance, drama teachers are being made


redundant and not replaced, where the subjects on a longer offered in


secondary schools. Where classroom assistants are being dismissed,


where individual attention to children is going down. It is making


life hard for our young people and their headteachers.


Why only 24% of your membership have taken part?


That is a good question, the 92% was a high majority.


Of the 24%. That shows we are on the right issue. It is a big sample. A


lot of people are supporting it. About 6000 people have joined the


union since announcing the strike. It is a low turnout. We want to do


electronic balloting. The fundamental question is teachers


don't think we can win. It is the right issue but they are not


convinced we can win. Let us talk about the funding, these


warnings that spending per pupil, not overall spending, in schools in


England is likely to fall by 8% in real terms.


What do you say? Education is one of the department


that has been ring-fenced. That is the overall envelope.


Along with international and health. The IFS percolated spending on


schools increased by 3% in real terms.


I have asked you per pupil. I want you to answer the question


about per-pupil funding. With your experience at the London free


school, there is an increase in pupil numbers and there are rising


costs. The envelope may be going up, but


not keeping pace with the other costs.


The rising costs are not to do with cuts in the school budget but mainly


to do with increasing obligations on schools to contribute to NI


cogitations and pensions. And the public sector pay freeze which seems


reasonable given inflation is at zero. I accept there will be some


real terms cuts. One thing I would say in response is that there is


very little international evidence to link spending per pupil with


pupil outcomes. The head of the programme for


International student assessment said variation in spending per pupil


only accounted for 20% in variation in pupil outcomes because it mainly


means, the increase, almost double the expenditure on schools since


1997, has meant smaller class sizes. There was no link between pupil


outcomes and class sizes. If we don't have dance, drama, arts


teachers, there will be no GCSEs in those subjects. There is a big link


with exam grades. We are talking about spending per


pupil. If you increase that significantly,


do the outcomes improve? Look at the results in London where


spending per pupil is higher. There is a pronounced link.


Toby is a bright the charges on schools is pronounced, national


insurance and pension conclusions. These school governing body at your


school will have to find her every 20 teachers an extra teacher's


salary to pay back to the Treasury when the Treasury is freezing the


per-pupil money. That is the cause of teachers being sacked, arts


teachers, the cause of last sizes going up. I have heard the argument


class size does not matter, that is not correct. People who pay for


private education are paying for smaller class sizes.


They are being ripped off. When teacher shortage is so pronounced


because of unnecessary workload, if you increase class sizes, you


increase that workload. There is strong evidence from


schools locally to me in London they are struggling to recruit in those


subjects. That is reality. In my school is there a four


squalls, not one, we haven't fired any music or drama teachers, they


are both thriving as departments. I think my main bone of contention


with you is not that there aren't good to be real term cuts... There


is going to be a squeeze. My issue is, when has a one-day wildcat


strike like this ever achieved anything? The NUT is already having


constructive talks with Nicky Morgan, she is really working with


you on reducing teacher workload, she has published three reports, we


know that the strikes never achieve anything, why break off talks on its


going reasonably well? It's not going reasonably well at all. It's


important we are taking action now. The origination of this action


cannot with the break-up of pay and academising across the country. We


have asked Nicky Morgan for evidence that any other country does that,


any other high performing education jurisdiction, none of them have,


Finland, South Korea, Singapore. There is no evidence base. Can you


achieve anything? I think we can. The reason for our turnout being


reasonably low is because members think we can't but we are very


messages of support from thousands of parents, from a group called Mr


Our Schools, parents understand we are raising issues that matter to


them. Tomorrow Sir John Chilcot


will finally publish his report into the UK's involvement


in the 2003 Iraq War. It's a significant moment -


with many people expecting it to provide a definitive verdict


on Tony Blair's role in taking the country to war


against Saddam Hussain. In a moment we'll discuss


the potential impact First though, here's


a reminder of what Sir John What I was saying to President Bush


it is very clear and simple. It is, you can count on us, we will


be with you in tackling this, I was having to persuade him to take


a view radically different from many of the people


in his administration. So what I was saying


to him is, I'm going to be I'm not going to push you down this


path, and then back out when it gets too hot politically,


because it is going to get hot I haven't seen the report, nobody


has, we will know tomorrow. As Sir John Chilcot said, the purpose of


the report was to understand the lessons of Iraq and I think by


general consent, the controversy with hindsight about the invasion of


Iraq has affected... It's almost paralysed our foreign policy since


that time. So I hope that what Sir John Chilcot will do is to, with the


informed benefit of hindsight, be very clear about what kind of


foresight planning we fail to take proper account. I think that again,


I was a member of the Cabinet that supported the innovation because of


all the evidence, what is clear that we were not nearly sufficiently


involved and engaged with planning the aftermath. This is clear and


there is consensus... I think the charge that people like Jeremy


Corbyn and John McDonnell will be looking at is whether Tony Blair had


already decided and agreed with George Bush to go to war. Let me


make a point about that. We have at an earlier discussion about why


Jeremy Corbyn is not standing down and so forth. It is the purpose of


Jeremy Corbyn's life's mission to be able to denounce Tony Blair as of


the criminal tomorrow. That is, I believe, a large part of what he


wants to hang on. I hope that Sir John Chilcot's report will give us


very clear exposition of what happened, interpretation of what


happens, but also will point to the future framing of decisions about


foreign policy, about engagement with governments in supporting


action against the radical regimes and so on -- tyrannical regimes. But


is the future policy for intervention, which has so paralysed


not just our government but governments around the world,


sometimes to the great detriment of countries that might have benefited?


Let's be very clear, Jeremy Corbyn wants to tell Sir Tony Blair that he


is a war criminal. They will be those that oppose him in that. I can


only say they have to have evidence from the report, don't believe that


evidence will be there. Sir John Chilcot has already made clear that


part of his remit is not to judge the legality. We will find out


tomorrow. Now it's time to find out


the answer to our quiz. When Nigel Farage infamously


insulted the then European Council President Herman Van Rompuy in 2010,


what did he NOT accuse him of? b) Having the "charisma


of a damp rag". c) Being akin to a "low-grade bank


clerk". I think he has usually those in


relation to different people! You are right, but which one did he not


attached to Herman Van Rompuy? Didn't he say that he had the


charisma of a damp rag? He did... It was the first one, never have a


proper job. All the others he did a tribute to Herman Van Rompuy.


speech to the President Of The European Council and former


Belgian Prime Minister Herman Van Rompuy, Nigel Farage


said Mr Van Rompuy had "the charisma of a damp rag",


was akin to a "low-grade bank clerk", and came


Last week, after the UK voted to leave the EU,


Nigel Farage used a speech in the European Parliament


"Virtually none of you have ever done a proper job in your lives."


Let's take a look at that clip and some other highlights


from Nigel Farage's time at the top of Ukip.


It seems to me that you have given away ?7 million of British taxpayers


money for nothing in return. Use it with our country flag, did not


represent our country's interests. -- use it.


They all look a little bit like goldfish. That have just been tipped


out of the ball onto the floor. Desperately gasping for air and


clinging on to the comfort blanket that is, this is a protest vote.


This is number one! The world's greatest leader!


I am a man of my work, don't Break my word so I shall be writing to the


Ukip National executive in a few minutes, saying that I am standing


down as leader of Ukip. Isn't it funny? When I came here 17 years ago


and I said that I wanted to lead a campaign to get Britain to leave the


European Union, you all laughed at me. Well I have to say, you're not


laughing now, are you? So, with Nigel Farage standing


down as Ukip leader, who will be the next to run


the UK Independence Party We've been joined by the party's


former deputy chairman Suzanne Evans, who is currently


suspended from the party. Did you expect him to stand down?


No, I was surprised but I understand why, the latest in his lifetime


ambition to get us out of the European Union, now we have this


momentous vote which will stand, let's be clear about that. So yes,


out on a high, why not? Most political careers don't and like


that. Will he keep out of the spotlight? I very much doubt it. I


think whoever takes over as leader of Ukip will perhaps believe his


input. Except he clashed with all the major party figures including


yourself, Douglas Carswell, Patrick Fling and Neil Hamilton, will it be


less divisive without him? I think it will. Nigel is a Marmite


character, I think now for the leader, we need somebody who is more


embracing, who shows it's not a one-man and order a single issue


party, and also a party that attracts more women. By looking


behind you, you see, neither did have an all-male team very often.


What about you? You were suspended for the moment, what about you? I


hope the party might overturn my suspension to allow me to stand. I


always said if he stood down I would like to have a go at it and I think


it's a shame I find myself in this position of being suspended,


apparently for criticising a homophobic candidate, not something


most people would think would be a disloyal thing to do in politics, so


I hope I can be on the ballot paper. What is happening in the suspension?


I did appeal, but it became clear early on that the appeal panel had


already prejudge the outcome. When I was originally suspended I wasn't


allowed to put any evidence to the panel to defend myself, I wasn't


even there, it looked like it would be a repeat of the same. So I have


actually withdrawn from that appeal. We shall see. I getting support from


people who want me to be on the ballot paper, e-mails, phone calls,


we shall see. I hope the party does the right thing. And if not EU, who


would you back? I am not going to say, I want to see who puts


themselves forward and what policies, I don't want someone to


take over Ukip and taken to the far right, we need a more common sense,


centre ground party who can afford to conservative voters in the south


and Labour voters in the North. There is your pitch for the


leadership! You heard it here first! Thanks to Tessa Jowell


and all my guests. The One O'Clock News is starting


over on BBC One now. I'll be back at 11.30 tomorrow


with Andrew for live coverage Dip into a summer of


amazing live music,


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