06/07/2016 Daily Politics


06/07/2016

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Seven years after it was commissioned, the Chilcot Report

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into the Iraq War is finally published.

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This is John Chilcot speaking live at the launch of his report

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He says his report will criticise individuals and institutions,

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and says he hopes it will answer questions for families of British

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It was one the most controversial foreign policy decisions

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179 British lives were lost in the invasion and its aftermath.

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So what are the lessons of Iraq and what will it mean for British

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The Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition will make

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their statements on the Chilcot report after their weekly sparring

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contest at Prime Ministers' Questions.

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We'll have all the action and reaction live from midday

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Yes, it's going to be a busy 90 minutes and to help us digest it

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all we are joined for the whole programme today by Charlie Falconer.

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He was, until recently, the Shadow Justice Secretary

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and in a former life he was Lord Chancellor

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And we also have the Conservative MP Julian Lewis.

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He currently chairs the Defence Select Committee.

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Now, the Chilcot Report is obviously the big story in Westminster today

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and it's being published more or less as we come on air.

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Has been under embargo, actually, until 11.30 three.

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So we are just going to give ourselves a few minutes to digest

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the headline findings of the report and get some reaction.

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But first, Jo has been keeping an eye on the other big running story

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in Westminster - the Conservative leadership election.

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So there are now just three contenders for

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Liam Fox came last in yesterday's ballot amongst MPs, with 16 votes

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Stephen Crabb, who came fourth with 34 votes,

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Both contenders threw their weight behind Theresa May, who was already

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way out in front with 165 supporters, half of the total votes.

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So it looks like Theresa May will be one of the top two to face

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the Conservative membership, but who could be her biggest threat?

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The Daily Politics has been given exclusive access to a new Survation

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poll of Conservative councillors showing that whilst Theresa May

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is way out in front with 46%, Andrea Leadsom has the support

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of nearly 22% of councillors, compared to Micheal Gove,

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Julian Lewis, it is Theresa May's to lose? Yes, but it is a very

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different electorate at the final stage. I must declare my interest, I

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am a supporter of Andrea's. I believe if she can get to the final

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stage, she will impress significantly and may well win. Do

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you agree with Stephen Crabb, who has dropped out, that with Theresa

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May so far ahead there needs to be a new leader quickly? No, not

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particularly. We constructed our electoral system with these factors

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in mind. It was decided it was for the members of Parliament to whittle

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it down to the last two and for the membership of the party to make the

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final decision. That should be done when the membership of the party has

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had a chance to listen to the two remaining candidates at a series of

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hustings around the country. Do you appreciate the argument that these

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are very uncertain times and there is the potential for turbulence,

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politically, economically, it may not happen, but there is that

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potential and a new Prime Minister is needed quickly? Not if it is

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going to result in a foreshortening of the democratic process. What is

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more important than settling even short-term turbulence is making the

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right decision in a democratic manner. I think the contest, which

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is set to go through to September, is perfectly adequate in terms of a

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timeline to be able to adapt the two remaining candidates and make the

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right decision. You are supporting Andrea Leadsom, what you make of Ken

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Clarke, caught on camera yesterday, he probably would say he would say

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it anyway, he said he didn't believe Andrea Leadsom wanted to leave the

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European Union? It interesting, he is someone who never wanted to leave

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the European Union so he would have an interest in dissing the prospects

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of somebody who does. Margaret Thatcher herself, once upon a time,

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wore a jumper festooned with European Union country flags and,

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yet, subsequently toughened her line. The point that made me realise

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that Andrea was the candidate for me, while I realised all along she

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had poor is, expertise and versatility, what I didn't know is

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whether she had political courage. By joining the Brexit campaign at a

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time when it didn't look good, she showed she had political courage.

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Julian appears to be suggesting that Ken Clarke's off-again intervention

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was a calculated attempt to undo Andrea Leadsom. One thing I can say

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about Ken Clarke, it would not have been calculate it, it would have

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been spontaneous. Thank you for announcing that intervention. You

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say somebody like Margaret Thatcher changed her mind when it came to her

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enthusiasm for the European Union, and that is true. On this programme,

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in 2013, Andrea Leadsom argued leaving the EU would be a disaster

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for the economy. What makes you so sure that she is the right person to

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lead the UK out? I'll tell you what makes me so sure, the fact is, at

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the time that she made those comments, she still believed, and

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was driving, to see if a deal could be reached that could make it

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permissible and acceptable to remain within the European Union. A

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disaster for the economy? She did her best to see whether the European

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Union was reform at all. She came to the conclusion, which a lot of us

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have had, who had been more actively involved for a longer period, that

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it wasn't and she nailed her colours firmly to the mast. She impressed

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enough people to put her in the commanding position she is in. In

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the last few minutes, John Chilcot has finally published his 12 volume

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report of his inquiry into the Iraq war and its aftermath. It is 2.6

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million words. Now, a select group of journalists

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has been in a so-called lock-in since 8 o'clock this morning looking

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at the report and we can now report Page 1 of the inquiry report states,

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"The UK chose to join the invasion of Iraq before the peaceful options

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for disarmament had been exhausted. Military action at that time was not

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a last resort." The inquiry also published a memo

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between Tony Blair and George Bush, That was just about nine months

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before the invasion. Well, Sir John Chilcot

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has just finished making a statement - here's

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a flavour of what he had to say. It is now clear that policy on Iraq

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was made on the basis of flawed intelligence and assessments. They

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were not challenged and they should have been. The findings on Iraq's

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WMD capabilities, set out in the report of the Iraq Survey Group in

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October 2004 were significant, but they did not support preinvasion

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statements by the UK Government which had focused on Iraq's current

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capabilities. Mr Blair and Mr Straw had described them as vast stocks,

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and an urgent and growing threat. In response to those findings, Mr Blair

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told the House of Commons that, although Iraq might not have had

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stockpiles of actually deployable weapons, Saddam Hussein retained the

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intent and the capability, and was in breach of United Nations

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obligations. That was not, however, the explanation for military action

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he had given before the conflict. John Chilcot, a few seconds ago.

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Let's get initial reactions from both of you. Charles Faulkner, Tony

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Blair's statements on the threat posed by WMDs were not justified. Mr

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Blair took Britain to war before the peaceful options had been exhausted.

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That's pretty damning? Era yes, and it is a very serious criticism. The

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first one, namely that he, in effect, overstated the extent of the

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risk, this is about the intelligence assessments. As far as the

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intelligence bodies in the world were concerned, the Western world,

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they all thought that Saddam did have weapons of mass destruction.

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With lots of caveats. What Mr Blair said, was not corrected by the

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agencies, though they knew differently, he said at the time

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that the intelligence was extensive, detailed and authoritative. We now

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know from the Butler report, not one of these three words was true.

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Scrappy and patchy were the words used. It was also very clear that

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they believed they did have weapons of mass destruction. The dossier you

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are referring to, I don't know if it is the dossier or the statement in

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Parliament, it was authored by the intelligence services. Of course,

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there might have been imprisoned in a way they shouldn't have been. What

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about the broader point that we went to war, we were taken to war before

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the peaceful options had been exhausted? People told us that at

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the time? And a choice had to be made about whether or not, and this

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is March 2003, you gave Saddam yet a further opportunity to comply with

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obligations to make disclosure about what his weapons of mass destruction

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were, and a judgment had to be made. A judgment was made by the USA and

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the UK that he should not be given more time. That is in the context of

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somebody that had been trying to stall the weapons inspectors since

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1991. All right. Let me come to you in a minute. We will hear first from

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Norman, our political correspondent. Let's go straight to him in

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Westminster. He has been following this. Norman, you are outside the

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QE2, where the report is being unveiled. There are demonstrations

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going on. What are the immediate take aways from this? Well, it seems

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to me that this report is much, much more damning than anyone had

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suspected. It is basically a din and see a not pretty much every aspect

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of the war, from the reasons to go to war, to the threat posed by

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Saddam Hussein. The claims he had weapons of mass destruction, the

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intelligence provided by the intelligence services, the legal

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case for war, the equipment the troops were sent to fight with, the

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lack of planning any aftermath. The only people that emerge with any

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credit our soldiers and civilians that were deployed in Iraq. What

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strikes me most about the report, the summary, is the figure towering

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over it who runs through the whole report, Tony Blair. What becomes

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clear is that he had become personally convinced that Saddam

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Hussein had to go months and months, and months, before the war, before

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telling Cabinet colleagues, before telling the country. He was

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personally signed up to getting rid of Saddam Hussein. What changed his

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mind seems to have been 9/11. A few months after that, in December, he

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is writing to President Bush, already discussing regime change in

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Iraq, albeit floating the idea that it could be through an uprising in

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Iraq which the British and Americans would support militarily. There is

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then that credible meeting in Crawford, Texas, in April 2002,

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where the two men pretty much firmer the military option. In July, and

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the known to the Cabinet for anyone else, Tony Blair writes to President

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Bush saying, I will be with you, whatever. He cites what has happened

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in Kosovo, Afghanistan and the last Gulf War. That seems to me to be the

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moment when he signalled that he is prepared to remove Saddam Hussein by

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British military intervention. We move forward to January 2003, three

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months before the outbreak of war. Tony Blair, again right into

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President Bush, saying the military option looks the most likely and

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commits to three British divisions being deployed in southern Iraq. As

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I say, the central story, I think, is Tony Blair parishing, deriving

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this whole drift to war. -- pushing. It accelerates as the days, weeks

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and months ago one. His cabinet, by and large, out of the loop or mere

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spectators. Thank you very much a superb summary

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the initial report or Doppler may get a reaction from you. I haven't

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yet had the chance to hear the full conclusions but I must say, it

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doesn't look as if that -- does look as if there was a preordained

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agenda. I must declare interest, I was a shallow defenceman struck the

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time and I strongly supported removing Saddam Hussein but what I

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did not support was the use of the intelligence services as a shelter

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behind which the government was secretly trying to mitigate events,

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-- manipulate events, and that soon became a situation where the joint

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intelligence committee was nothing more than a political football. The

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position ought to be that the secret agencies do their business, advice

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the government and the government then makes the decision. The

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government should not be pulling them into the limelight and saying,

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"If you don't believe us you'd better believe them," particularly

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when it had Alastair Campbell trying to get them to rewrite their own

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conclusions took we are going to continue discussing this in a moment

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but you have some other guests. Joining me now from College

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Green is Mark Seddon - he was on Labour's National

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Executive at the time of the Iraq War and fought internal

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battles with Tony Blair - he presented his evidence

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to the Chilcot Inquiry. And Dr Alan Mendoza

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from the Henry Jackson Society. Welcome to both of you. Mark Seddon,

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first of all, it's a damning report, certainly when you look at it

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initially in every aspect of the war. Does all the blame for

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Britain's involvement in Iraq now rests on the shoulders of Tony

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Blair? No, it doesn't did good is hugely damning report and you do

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wonder because the process of challenging this whole idea of there

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being weapons of mass destruction began about a year ago and you have

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to ask yourself the question, if it's possible for a journalist such

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as myself or other people to interview the former head of the UN

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weapons inspector Scott Ritter and him to tell us that there were no

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likely weapons of mass destruction because they've done their job, that

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would then ring alarm bells. There were three resolutions and at the

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Labour Party conference, essentially we were trying to establish that no

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action should be taken by the British Government without the full

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support of the noted nations. I had to be security Council backing. Each

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one of those was shot down and it has to be said that the late Robin

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Cook and the former president of the UN assembly helped me write them. So

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it does make you wonder what on earth was going on and I'm afraid

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that the inquiry does tell us what was going on, which was essentially

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that there was a drive for regime change. That's what it was. Except

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when you look at the declassified memo from Tony Blair to George Bush,

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it also shows that Tony Blair was convinced that Saddam Hussein was a

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potential threat and Batty had weapons of mass destruction and was

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prepared to use them. So does that not dispel the argument that Tony

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Blair went ahead with his intentions knowing there were no weapons of

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mass destruction? Hans Blix, if you recall, who was somebody else who

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was underlined along with the Security Council, was arguing for

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more time. The previous head of the UN is weapons inspectors had said

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that they had done the job. There was real doubt as to what the Iraqis

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might have if anything, really, so if that was the pretext it was an

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incorrect pretext and I think that has come through in this report in a

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very polite way. It's a very, very powerful report it You say it is

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polite because some of the language that is used actually doesn't pin,

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if you like, the Lehman Tony Blair in quite the way some his critics

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would like to see. Do you think Tony Blair now was wrong to go to war,

:18:57.:19:01.

Alan Mendoza? Ideye Mickey was wrong to go to war. I think what is clear

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is that he exaggerated things. -- I don't think he was wrong to go to

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war. Everyone knew that Saddam was a threat. Everyone knew, including his

:19:13.:19:15.

own generals, it seems, that he had a programme of some kind of weapons

:19:16.:19:19.

of mass to structured, everyone knew he was a barbaric leader. It wasn't

:19:20.:19:22.

wrong to go to war and try and remove such a person who did

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threaten our security, but it is clear the report has laid bare some

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of the contradictions and problems of foreign policy decision-making of

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the time and that is what we should be focusing on, looking at how we

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can better improve our foreign policy-making process in the future

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so that if there is a similar conflict that looks like coming, we

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do properly analyse data and make sure we make an informed decision,

:19:45.:19:48.

rather than one which takes bits and pieces and concoct them into a

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theory. But Alan Mendoza, there is the line that says, "I will be with

:19:54.:19:58.

you whatever," Tony Blair to George Bush, which is the charge that was

:19:59.:20:01.

put to the then Prime Minister, that he had already decided to go to war,

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he had already decided to support the Americans in going into Iraq

:20:07.:20:10.

without the UN security resolution and without, at that time, the

:20:11.:20:15.

say-so of the House of Commons. I don't think anyone would think in

:20:16.:20:18.

their right mind that Saddam Hussein would ever comply with the UN. He

:20:19.:20:23.

hadn't done so since 1991. At some point, as he states, a political

:20:24.:20:27.

decision had to be made. It is clear that Tony Blair came to that early,

:20:28.:20:31.

he decided early to do that. It doesn't mean that in 2003 or 2004 he

:20:32.:20:35.

wouldn't have made the same decision. Mach seven, what about the

:20:36.:20:40.

calls from some parts of the Labour Party and certainly Jeremy Corbyn,

:20:41.:20:44.

the Labour leader, who was reported to want to accuse Tony Blair of

:20:45.:20:50.

being a war criminal. Is that they're? Gove it is the

:20:51.:20:52.

International Criminal Court to investigate that. I think the damage

:20:53.:20:55.

has been done and needs to be repaired to the United Nations, to

:20:56.:21:00.

the Security Council, to Kofi Anand. I think if you asking me my own

:21:01.:21:07.

personal view that Tony Blair has to reflect very long and hard on this

:21:08.:21:14.

report and I hope that he can see that he was wrong to push for

:21:15.:21:19.

unilateral military action without the support of the United Nations

:21:20.:21:23.

and I hope that he will apologise to all of those people who lost sons

:21:24.:21:30.

and daughters, both from Britain and Iraq, and I hope, more importantly

:21:31.:21:34.

than Tony Blair, that this is never allowed to happen again. We do not

:21:35.:21:38.

have unilateral military action taken by this country. Thank you

:21:39.:21:43.

both very much. Charlie Faulkner, Chilcot says we

:21:44.:21:49.

rushed into war prematurely, we haven't exhausted all the options.

:21:50.:21:54.

Casts fresh doubt on the legality of our actions, it makes clear the

:21:55.:21:59.

intelligence was deeply flawed and that the aftermath of it all was a

:22:00.:22:04.

disaster. Where is the good news in this? I haven't read the report and

:22:05.:22:08.

we visit the need to learn the lessons of it. In a way, though,

:22:09.:22:13.

looking at it from the point of view of what was going on at the time the

:22:14.:22:18.

decision was made, as I said earlier wrong, the dilemma for the

:22:19.:22:21.

government was what to do about Saddam Hussein and the extent to

:22:22.:22:28.

which he posed a threat to the region and may be wider. These are

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difficult decisions. The threat to the region came subsequently, didn't

:22:33.:22:37.

it? The region ended up in chaos. We now know that Saddam was not a

:22:38.:22:42.

threat. He had been a threat to the region. We tabby Iran war, the

:22:43.:22:46.

Kuwait intervention, but by that time he wasn't. The whole threat to

:22:47.:22:52.

the region came after our invasion. At that time, in 2003, what it

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appeared, and this was the view that was widely held, was that he was

:22:57.:23:01.

trying to avoid having revealed what the extent of his weapons of mass

:23:02.:23:05.

destruction were. Subsequently, as you rightly say, there were no

:23:06.:23:09.

stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction. Wasn't just hindsight

:23:10.:23:12.

it topped the French at the time told us not to go down this road,

:23:13.:23:15.

they warned us that this was a dangerous thing, that things were

:23:16.:23:18.

not as clear-cut as the Blair government was making out. Hans

:23:19.:23:22.

Blix, the weapons inspector, he said you needed more time, he haven't

:23:23.:23:26.

found anything yet. You don't need hindsight to have been right at the

:23:27.:23:32.

time. People were right and the government was wrong. You have to

:23:33.:23:36.

make a judgment in March 2003. That was the dilemma that the government

:23:37.:23:41.

faced. The UN had passed countless resolutions between 1991 up to and

:23:42.:23:48.

including 1441 in November 2002, all posited on the basis that he had

:23:49.:23:53.

weapons of mass destruction. Why would he be evasive? Why had he

:23:54.:23:58.

thrown out the weapons inspectors in 1998? Why was it that he would not

:23:59.:24:01.

provide full cooperation? Because he was terrified that his own people

:24:02.:24:04.

might rise up against him if he didn't have these weapons of mass

:24:05.:24:09.

destruction. It was an act, we know that now. It was all an act and he

:24:10.:24:16.

fooled us. Here is an issue, with your defence hat on. You can have

:24:17.:24:20.

arguments about the policy of the time, about the aftermath and so on

:24:21.:24:23.

but I think a lot of people watching at home, when they get to see more

:24:24.:24:28.

of this Chilcot Report, will come to this, which is that even though the

:24:29.:24:32.

situation in Iraq was far from resolved by 2006, indeed things were

:24:33.:24:37.

going from bad to worse in Basra, the bit that we were occupying, we

:24:38.:24:44.

opened a second front in Afghanistan and began to ramp above forces there

:24:45.:24:48.

and the Chilcot Report is quite clear, we did not provide our forces

:24:49.:24:54.

with the resources to fight on two fronts. Indeed, and the problem that

:24:55.:24:58.

we have is that in peace time we never wish to invest as much in

:24:59.:25:04.

defence as we should so that when a conflict breaks out, we never have

:25:05.:25:08.

adequate resources and we only develop those resources as the

:25:09.:25:12.

conflict goes on. But can I just put two point of your consideration? The

:25:13.:25:17.

thing that meant that it was more dangerous than normal to adopt a

:25:18.:25:21.

policy of containment with Saddam Hussein, which would normally be the

:25:22.:25:25.

correct policy, was the appearance on the scene of Al-Qaeda in such a

:25:26.:25:33.

terrible way in 2001 because the fear was that if, for any reason,

:25:34.:25:40.

stocks of mass destruction weapons, by which I mean anthrax, not

:25:41.:25:43.

lower-level weapons, weapons that could kill, hundreds of thousands of

:25:44.:25:50.

people by deployment of relatively small quantities of these weapons,

:25:51.:25:55.

if for any reason a dictator chose to supply those to the terrorists,

:25:56.:25:58.

you couldn't use the deterrent option. Syria could have done the

:25:59.:26:04.

same, we didn't invade Syria. Al-Qaeda was almost nowhere to be

:26:05.:26:08.

seen in Iraq. Out only when it appeared, after we'd invaded, then

:26:09.:26:12.

it was everywhere. Indeed, and that leads me to second point I wanted to

:26:13.:26:20.

make. It was perfectly possible for a dictator who is faced with an

:26:21.:26:25.

enemy to supply the enemies of his enemies with deadly weapons that

:26:26.:26:31.

they would unhesitatingly use. But on the second point, in relation to

:26:32.:26:36.

what happened in Syria, was that those of us who had learned the

:26:37.:26:41.

lessons of Iraq, and I was one, and who voted not to allow Assad to be

:26:42.:26:47.

brought down, realised that the main problem was that there was optimism

:26:48.:26:53.

that if you pulled down these dictators, democracy would emerge,

:26:54.:26:57.

whereas in reality what Iraq showed was that you either have a

:26:58.:27:00.

repressive dictatorship or you have bloody Civil War of 1000 years'

:27:01.:27:05.

standing between the different branches of Islam and that is the

:27:06.:27:09.

real lesson that we applied to Syria. Many people said that at the

:27:10.:27:12.

time and it turns out now, it's not quite clear that the Bush

:27:13.:27:15.

administration even knew the difference between Sunni and Shia.

:27:16.:27:19.

They knew nothing of the history of Iraq at all. The British may have

:27:20.:27:23.

known a bit more but it looks like the Americans knew nothing and they

:27:24.:27:26.

have prepared almost nothing for the aftermath, which is probably the

:27:27.:27:30.

biggest unforgivable thing, because they didn't attack us, we attacked

:27:31.:27:34.

them supposedly to make a better society, and we had no plans to do

:27:35.:27:38.

so and Mr Blair did not insist that the Americans had that. These are

:27:39.:27:42.

things that are clear and the Chilcot Report. Laura Coombs BOE,

:27:43.:27:46.

our political editor, has joined us. You were in the lock in. That is

:27:47.:27:51.

just the Executive summary, which is a big enough document on its own. Is

:27:52.:27:55.

it clear to you yet, Laura, what the political fallout is going to be

:27:56.:27:59.

from this? It seems now to be a pretty damning report. It is under

:28:00.:28:03.

people were worried that there would be a whitewash, if there were any

:28:04.:28:07.

suggestions of that, it is not. Impolite technicolour, this is a

:28:08.:28:11.

very, very damning verdict on exact what happened. In terms of the

:28:12.:28:14.

political consequences, there is one very important thing, most of the

:28:15.:28:18.

main actors criticised in here, and there are many of them, have gone on

:28:19.:28:22.

to pastures new. They are not people who are in the political front line

:28:23.:28:26.

any more, they have moved on, but the question of Tony Blair's

:28:27.:28:30.

reputation will, to some extent, rest on this, and in the last few

:28:31.:28:34.

minutes he has released a statement looking for the positives, I suppose

:28:35.:28:38.

in this, saying that this should lay to rest any idea that there was

:28:39.:28:41.

deceit or there was bad faith or it was deception in any way and he

:28:42.:28:45.

will, I'm sure, through the day, certainly hang on to a very clear

:28:46.:28:49.

conclusion in there, but there was not evidence that Number Ten do

:28:50.:28:52.

liberally manufactured evidence. Of course that has been one of the most

:28:53.:28:58.

controversial claims all along. -- deliberately manufactured evidence.

:28:59.:29:01.

This is a remarkable document because this is not fractions of

:29:02.:29:04.

what happened, this is not scraps. This is probably the most

:29:05.:29:07.

comprehensive analysis of a conflict in modern times and I think for any

:29:08.:29:11.

politician who is thinking about military action in the next few

:29:12.:29:16.

decades, they'll think of this because here we are, almost all of

:29:17.:29:20.

the details about the decision-making, all of the details

:29:21.:29:23.

of so many of the mistakes, out in public view. It is felt like it is a

:29:24.:29:29.

long time coming but in historical terms, this is an astonishingly

:29:30.:29:33.

rapid and damning conclusion of what politicians who are not on the front

:29:34.:29:38.

line, but they are still around, did wrong. We are going to go over to

:29:39.:29:43.

PMQs in a minute but lets to see if we have time. On the legality of the

:29:44.:29:46.

issue, Chilcot talks about the circumstances being wrong. I'm not

:29:47.:29:51.

quite clear, perhaps you are. He's not saying, though, it's illegal. He

:29:52.:29:54.

pulls his punch or doesn't come to that conclusion. It is very

:29:55.:29:58.

important that our viewers to understand this. Chilcot was not

:29:59.:30:02.

constituted to give illegal verdict. It was not a court, they were not a

:30:03.:30:08.

jury. -- a legal verdict. However, my reading of what he says is that

:30:09.:30:13.

he goes almost as far as he could in suggesting that there may be caused

:30:14.:30:15.

to show that the decision was potentially... Let's go straight

:30:16.:30:20.

over to the House of Commons for PMQs.

:30:21.:30:37.

Chloe Smith. Mr Speaker, I am a Conservative because I believe it is

:30:38.:30:47.

not where you are coming from, it is where you are going to. Does my

:30:48.:30:53.

right honourable friend agree? Does my right honourable friend agree

:30:54.:30:55.

that the opportunities to succeed no matter what your background is what

:30:56.:31:06.

we want for Britain? I absolutely agree, making sure all citizens have

:31:07.:31:10.

life chances to make the most of their talents should be the driving

:31:11.:31:13.

mission for the rest of this Parliament. Yesterday we were

:31:14.:31:18.

talking about boosting national citizens service, which I think will

:31:19.:31:22.

play a key role in giving young people the confidence and life

:31:23.:31:24.

skills to make the most of the talents they have. I think today it

:31:25.:31:33.

would be appropriate if we pause for a moment to think of those people

:31:34.:31:37.

who lost their lives in the bombings in Baghdad in recent days. The

:31:38.:31:43.

people that have suffered and their families, the end of Ramadan, it

:31:44.:31:48.

must be a terrible experience for them and we should send our

:31:49.:31:53.

sympathies and solidarity. I join the Prime Minister in wishing Wales

:31:54.:31:59.

well. I'll be cheering for them along with everybody else. That's

:32:00.:32:06.

quiet, isn't it? There is life after all! 30 years ago, Mr Speaker, the

:32:07.:32:19.

Shire Brooke colliery employed thousands of workers in skilled,

:32:20.:32:25.

well played, unionised jobs, digging coal. Today, thousands of people

:32:26.:32:31.

work on the same site. The vast majority are an zero hours

:32:32.:32:39.

contracts, no union representation, the minimum wage is not even paid.

:32:40.:32:47.

Doesn't it sum up Britain? Let me join the honourable gentleman in

:32:48.:32:54.

giving my thoughts to those killed in these terrible terrorist attacks.

:32:55.:32:59.

On the issue of what has happened in our coalfield communities, to see

:33:00.:33:03.

new jobs and new investment come, we have made sure that there is not

:33:04.:33:06.

only a minimum wage, but now a national Living Wage. Yes, he talks

:33:07.:33:14.

about one colliery. I recently visited the site of the Grimethorpe

:33:15.:33:24.

colliery, there is a business there, Asos, employing 5000 people. We are

:33:25.:33:27.

never going to succeed as a country if we try to hold onto jobs in

:33:28.:33:30.

industries that have become uncompetitive. We have to hold onto

:33:31.:33:36.

jobs of the future. The problem is, if you are on a zero hours

:33:37.:33:40.

contracts, the minimum wage does not add up to a living wage. He must

:33:41.:33:45.

understand that. Can I take him to the Lindsey oil refinery? In 2009,

:33:46.:33:50.

hundreds of oil workers worked out on strike because agency workers

:33:51.:33:54.

from Italy and Portugal were brought in on lower wages to do the same

:33:55.:33:59.

job. Just down the road in Boston, low pay is endemic. The average

:34:00.:34:08.

hourly wage across the whole country is ?13.33. An East Midlands, ?12. In

:34:09.:34:16.

Boston, it is ?9. Isn't it time the government intervened to step up for

:34:17.:34:20.

those communities that feel they have been left behind in modern

:34:21.:34:24.

Britain? We have intervened with a national Living Wage, we have

:34:25.:34:27.

intervened with more fines against companies that don't pay the minimum

:34:28.:34:31.

wage. We have intervened, for the first time, something that Labour

:34:32.:34:35.

never did, naming and shaming companies involved. Those

:34:36.:34:38.

interventions help and can make a difference. The real intervention

:34:39.:34:44.

that you need is an economy that is growing and encouraging investment.

:34:45.:34:50.

What we want are the industry the future. Record numbers are aware,

:34:51.:34:55.

and the British economy has been one of the strongest in the G7. Mr

:34:56.:35:00.

Speaker, this Government promised it would rebalance our economy. It

:35:01.:35:07.

promised a Northern Powerhouse. Yet half of 1% of infrastructure

:35:08.:35:09.

investment is going to the north-east. London is getting 44

:35:10.:35:15.

times more than that. Does he not think it is time to have a real

:35:16.:35:19.

rebalancing of our economy and invest in those areas that are

:35:20.:35:25.

losing out so badly? I think he is talking down the performance of

:35:26.:35:29.

parts of our economy that are doing well. If you look at the

:35:30.:35:32.

fastest-growing part of our economy, it has been the north-west, not the

:35:33.:35:37.

south-east. If you want to see where exports are growing faster, it is

:35:38.:35:40.

the north-east and not London. There is a huge amount of work to do to

:35:41.:35:44.

make sure we feel that North-South divide. For the first time, we have

:35:45.:35:50.

a Government with a proper strategy, investing in infrastructure,

:35:51.:35:52.

training and skills that will make a difference. For years, regional

:35:53.:35:55.

policy was just trying to distribute a few government jobs outside

:35:56.:35:59.

London. Now we have a strategy about skills, training and about growth

:36:00.:36:05.

and delivery. The idea of this redistribution is a very

:36:06.:36:08.

interesting. The investment in London is more than the total of

:36:09.:36:13.

every other English region combined. Does he not think these issues

:36:14.:36:19.

should be addressed? In March, the government investment was cut in

:36:20.:36:23.

order to meet its fiscal rules. How does the Prime Minister think the

:36:24.:36:26.

economy can be rebalanced when investment is cut and what little

:36:27.:36:31.

investment remains reinforces the regional imbalances in this country?

:36:32.:36:36.

Well, first of all, again, he is talking down the North in the

:36:37.:36:40.

questions he asks. The unemployment rate in the north-west is lower than

:36:41.:36:44.

the unemployment rate London. I think, actually, his figures are

:36:45.:36:48.

wrong. In terms of investment, yes, of course, we need to have the

:36:49.:36:53.

Government investment. We got it in HS2, in the railways, the biggest

:36:54.:36:57.

investment programme since Victorian times, the biggest investment in our

:36:58.:37:01.

roads since the 1970s. You can only invest if you have a strong and

:37:02.:37:05.

growing economy. We know what Labour's recipe is, more borrowing,

:37:06.:37:09.

more spending, more debt, trashing the economy, which is what they did

:37:10.:37:15.

when in office and that is when investment collapses. The Chancellor

:37:16.:37:19.

finally did this week what the Shadow Chancellor asked him to do in

:37:20.:37:22.

the Autumn Statement and what I asked the Prime Minister to do last

:37:23.:37:26.

week, abandoned a key part of the fiscal rule. We now know the deficit

:37:27.:37:30.

was supposed to vanish by 2015, and it will not even be gone by 2020.

:37:31.:37:37.

Isn't it time to admit that austerity is a failure and the way

:37:38.:37:40.

forward is to invest in infrastructure, invest in growth and

:37:41.:37:47.

invest in jobs? What he says is not the case. The rules we set out

:37:48.:37:50.

always have flexibility in case growth didn't turn out the way...

:37:51.:37:54.

Well, the point I would make to him, I would take his advice more

:37:55.:37:57.

seriously if I could think of a single spending reduction that he

:37:58.:38:02.

had supported at any time in the last six years. The fact is, this

:38:03.:38:07.

Government and the last one, the Coalition Government, had to take

:38:08.:38:10.

difficult decisions to get our deficit under control. It's gone

:38:11.:38:14.

from 11% of GDP that we inherited, the biggest in the entire world,

:38:15.:38:19.

almost, to under 3% this year, because of difficult decisions. If

:38:20.:38:22.

he can tell me one of those decisions he has supported, I would

:38:23.:38:26.

be interested to hear it. Mr Speaker, concerns about the fiscal

:38:27.:38:35.

rule investment are obviously spreading on his own ventures. The

:38:36.:38:37.

Work and Pensions Secretary and Business Secretary have seen the

:38:38.:38:39.

light. They agree with my honourable friend the Shadow Chancellor in

:38:40.:38:41.

backing the massive investment programme we have been advocating.

:38:42.:38:44.

Isn't it time that he thanked the honourable member for Hayes and

:38:45.:38:47.

Harlington for the education where he has been doing in this house?

:38:48.:38:51.

Will he confirm that the Chancellor's fiscal rule is dead and

:38:52.:38:55.

invest in the north-east, in Lincolnshire, Derbyshire, all of

:38:56.:38:59.

those places that feel, with good reason, that they have been left

:39:00.:39:02.

behind and the investment is going to the wrong places, and they are

:39:03.:39:06.

ending up with few jobs on lower wages, and insecure employment to

:39:07.:39:12.

boot? If the investment was going in the wrong places, we would not see

:39:13.:39:16.

2.5 million more people in work and we would not see a fall in

:39:17.:39:20.

unemployment, and a rise in employment in every single region in

:39:21.:39:25.

our country. The only area where I think the Right Honourable Gentleman

:39:26.:39:27.

has made a massive contribution is in recent weeks he has come up with

:39:28.:39:30.

the biggest job creation scheme I'd ever seen in my life, almost

:39:31.:39:38.

everyone on the benches behind him has had an opportunity to serve on

:39:39.:39:42.

the front bench! Rather like the old job creation schemes, it has been a

:39:43.:39:47.

bit of a revolving door. They get a job, sometimes for only a few hours,

:39:48.:39:50.

and then they go back to the backbenches. But it is a job

:39:51.:39:54.

creation scheme, nonetheless, and we should thank him for that!

:39:55.:40:01.

On a day when significant questions have been levelled at the collective

:40:02.:40:10.

decision-making of politicians, military leaders and intelligence

:40:11.:40:13.

services, many of our constituents will be seeking reassurance that the

:40:14.:40:18.

lives of their loved ones were not given in vain. That the mistakes

:40:19.:40:25.

made will never happen again. Can I ask the Prime Minister, will he

:40:26.:40:27.

ensure that the lessons learned will be fully examined and acted upon, so

:40:28.:40:34.

that there can never be a repeat of the tragic mistakes made over a

:40:35.:40:39.

decade ago? Well, I am grateful to my honourable friend for his

:40:40.:40:42.

question. I can certainly give that assurance. We will have plenty of

:40:43.:40:46.

time this afternoon to discuss the Chilcot Report and Sir John Chilcot

:40:47.:40:49.

is on his feet at the moment, explaining what he has found. I

:40:50.:40:53.

think the most important thing we can do is to really learn the

:40:54.:40:57.

lessons for the future. The lessons that he lays out, quite clearly. We

:40:58.:41:02.

will want to spend a lot of time, I'm sure, talking about the

:41:03.:41:05.

decisions on going to war and the rest of it. The most important thing

:41:06.:41:09.

for all of us is to make sure we find out how to make sure government

:41:10.:41:13.

works better, legal advice is considered better, those things are

:41:14.:41:16.

the best legacy we can sit from this whole thing. Angus Robertson. Today

:41:17.:41:23.

is hugely important for Muslims at home and abroad at the end of

:41:24.:41:36.

Ramadan. I am sure we wish them all Eid Mubarak. Our thoughts today are

:41:37.:41:42.

with those who have died in Iraq, and the families of those in Iraq

:41:43.:41:46.

who have lost loved ones. The Chilcot Report confirms that in

:41:47.:41:52.

2002, Tony Blair wrote to President Bush, saying, I will be with you

:41:53.:41:55.

whatever. Does the Prime Minister understand why the families of the

:41:56.:42:00.

dead and the injured a UK service personnel, the hundreds of thousands

:42:01.:42:04.

of Iraqis, feel they were deceived about the reasons for going to war

:42:05.:42:09.

in Iraq? First of all, let me join the Right Honourable Gentleman in

:42:10.:42:12.

wishing Muslims in this country and all over the world Eid Mubarak at

:42:13.:42:17.

the end of Ramadan. In terms of the report, we will discuss it in detail

:42:18.:42:21.

later, and I don't want to pre-empt all of the things I will say in my

:42:22.:42:25.

statement. Clearly, we need to learn the lessons of the report, we need

:42:26.:42:29.

to study it carefully. It is millions of words, thousands of

:42:30.:42:33.

pages. I think we should save our remarks for when we debated in the

:42:34.:42:39.

house after the statement. The Chilcot Report catalogues the

:42:40.:42:44.

failures in planning for post-conflict Iraq and then

:42:45.:42:48.

concludes that, and I quote, the UK did not achieve its objectives. That

:42:49.:42:54.

lack of planning has also been evident in relation to Afghanistan,

:42:55.:43:01.

Libya, Syria and, most recently, with no plan whatsoever, for Brexit.

:43:02.:43:08.

When will the UK Government actually start learning from the mistakes of

:43:09.:43:11.

the past, so we are not condemned to repeat them in future? First of all,

:43:12.:43:16.

he is right that what Sir John Chilcot says about the failure to

:43:17.:43:20.

plan is very, very clear. I can read from his statement, that is

:43:21.:43:24.

something he has given. He says when the invasion began, UK policy rested

:43:25.:43:27.

on an assumption that there would be a well executed, US lead and UN

:43:28.:43:32.

authorised operation in a relatively benign environment. He told the

:43:33.:43:37.

inquiry that the difficulties have been known in advance, Mr Blair.

:43:38.:43:44.

What I would say to the Right Honourable Gentleman in terms of

:43:45.:43:49.

planning is what I put in place, following what happened in Iraq, a

:43:50.:43:55.

National Security Council, a properly staffed and national

:43:56.:43:57.

Security Secretariat, all of those things, including listening to

:43:58.:44:02.

expert advice on a National Security Council, all of those things are

:44:03.:44:06.

designed to avoid the problems that the government have in the case of

:44:07.:44:12.

Iraq. The only point I would make is that, actually, there is no set of

:44:13.:44:16.

arrangements and plans that can provide perfection in any of these

:44:17.:44:21.

cases. Military intervention, we can argue whether it is ever justified,

:44:22.:44:25.

I believe it is. Military intervention is always difficult.

:44:26.:44:28.

Planning for the aftermath, that is always difficult. I don't think in

:44:29.:44:32.

this house we should be naive in any way that there is a perfect set of

:44:33.:44:35.

plans or a perfect set of arrangements that can solve these

:44:36.:44:38.

problems in perpetuity. There aren't. Would my right honourable

:44:39.:44:43.

friend join me in congratulating Southend Council, once again under

:44:44.:44:50.

the control of the Conservative Party, for swiftly acting to sort

:44:51.:44:56.

out the mess left by the previous, hopeless administration? And would

:44:57.:45:01.

he agree with me that Southend-on-Sea, being the

:45:02.:45:04.

alternative City of Culture next year, will produce a considerable

:45:05.:45:09.

boost to the local economy? Let me pay tribute to my honourable friend

:45:10.:45:13.

for his long-standing efforts to promote Southend and all it has to

:45:14.:45:18.

offer. While Hull is the official City of Culture next year, I am sure

:45:19.:45:22.

that Southend will benefit from the tireless campaign he has run. I join

:45:23.:45:25.

him in encouraging people to go and see this excellent seaside town for

:45:26.:45:26.

themselves. Is the Prime Minister aware that two

:45:27.:45:36.

miles north of Shire Brooke, already mentioned today, is a town called

:45:37.:45:44.

Bolsover and at the same time they were seeing the notices on the bus

:45:45.:45:54.

saying ?350 million for the NHS. At that time, they decided this

:45:55.:45:59.

government, with the help of the local people, to close the hospital

:46:00.:46:06.

Bolsover. We need the beds. I'm sure he understands that. When the

:46:07.:46:11.

hospital is closed, it is gone forever. I want him here to date to

:46:12.:46:17.

use a little bit of that money, not very much, to save the Bolsover

:46:18.:46:24.

hospital, save the beds, save the jobs and the press might have a

:46:25.:46:30.

headline saying, "The Prime Minister, dodgy Dave, assists the

:46:31.:46:37.

beast to save the Bolsover hospital". What a sensation! I will

:46:38.:46:47.

look very carefully. I don't have the information about the exact

:46:48.:46:50.

situation at the Bolsover hospital. I'll look at it very carefully and

:46:51.:46:53.

write to him. What I would say is that we are putting ?90 billion

:46:54.:46:57.

extra into the NHS in this Parliament. As for what was on the

:46:58.:47:01.

side buses and all the rest of it, my argument has always been, and

:47:02.:47:05.

will always be, but it is a strong economy you required to fund the

:47:06.:47:13.

NHS. -- ?19 billion. Last week I held my first apprenticeship is fair

:47:14.:47:16.

in my constituency. Does my right honourable friend agree with me that

:47:17.:47:20.

apprenticeships are an absolutely vital part of economic develop and

:47:21.:47:23.

in our proud northern towns and cities? She is absolutely right and

:47:24.:47:29.

that's why we've set the target for 3 million apprentices in this

:47:30.:47:31.

Parliament. I think it is achievable, just as we achieved the

:47:32.:47:35.

2 million apprentices trained in the last Parliament, and I wish her well

:47:36.:47:39.

with what I hope is the first of many apprenticeship fares in her

:47:40.:47:45.

constituency. Mr Speaker, before I ask my question, can I thank the

:47:46.:47:48.

Prime Minister for the support he gave my campaign about getting an

:47:49.:47:55.

inquiry into a certain drug which is given to pregnant women, resulting

:47:56.:48:01.

in thousands of babies being born with deformities. I thank him for

:48:02.:48:06.

supporting the campaign. Our universities, the global success

:48:07.:48:09.

stories, outward looking, open for business with the world, and

:48:10.:48:12.

attracting the brightest and the best students and researchers to

:48:13.:48:19.

reduce ground-breaking research on cancer to climate change. In the

:48:20.:48:25.

last year, the... I need a single sentence question. Forgive me but

:48:26.:48:28.

there are a lot of other colleagues who want to take part. The

:48:29.:48:36.

University has received ?836 million last year. What assurances can the

:48:37.:48:39.

Prime Minister give us that in light of the fact that we are now out of

:48:40.:48:44.

the EU, that money will be saved? First of all, let me thank the

:48:45.:48:47.

honourable lady for her thanks because she has raised this case

:48:48.:48:52.

many times and I can tell the Medicines and health care Products

:48:53.:48:54.

Regulatory Agency has been gathering evidence for a review by expert

:48:55.:48:58.

working groups on medicines and they have met on three occasions so I

:48:59.:49:01.

think we're making progress. The point she makes about universities -

:49:02.:49:05.

until Britain leads the EU we get the full amount of funding under the

:49:06.:49:10.

programmes as you would expect. All contracts under that have to be

:49:11.:49:13.

fulfilled, but it will be for a future government, as it negotiates

:49:14.:49:17.

the exit from the EU, to make sure that we domestic league continue to

:49:18.:49:21.

fund our universities in a way that makes sure they continue to lead the

:49:22.:49:27.

world. As my right honourable friend will know, the potential closure of

:49:28.:49:30.

the BHS store in Torquay town centre with the loss of over 100 jobs as

:49:31.:49:37.

again raised the need for urgent regeneration of town centres. Would

:49:38.:49:40.

he outline what support will be made available by the government to

:49:41.:49:45.

ensure plans can be taken forward? It is worth making the point that it

:49:46.:49:50.

is a very sad moment for those BHS staff who have worked so long for

:49:51.:49:54.

that business. For them, it was simply a high-street brand, it was a

:49:55.:49:58.

job, it was a way of life, it was a means of preparing for their

:49:59.:50:00.

retirement and their pensions and we must do all we can to help them and

:50:01.:50:05.

find them new work and there are many vacancies in the retail sector,

:50:06.:50:08.

and we must make sure we help them to get those jobs. What we've done

:50:09.:50:12.

in terms of high street is around ?18 million has gone to towns

:50:13.:50:15.

through them of initiatives and we should keep those up because keeping

:50:16.:50:19.

our town centres vibrant is so vital that this sits alongside the biggest

:50:20.:50:22.

ever cut in interest rates in England, worth some ?6.7 billion in

:50:23.:50:26.

the next five years and I think we need to say to those on our high

:50:27.:50:29.

streets to make the most of that business rate cut. One of my

:50:30.:50:35.

constituents who I've been working with for some time has had her

:50:36.:50:38.

mobility cart removed after falling victim to a flawed assessment by

:50:39.:50:46.

Atos. Atos have admitted their error and yet my vulnerable constituent

:50:47.:50:50.

still remains housebound and without a car. Will the Prime Minister of

:50:51.:50:54.

his full assistance to rectify this cruel situation and will he look

:50:55.:50:57.

again at the regulations which allowed this situation to come

:50:58.:51:01.

about? Let me congratulate the taking of this constituency case.

:51:02.:51:05.

Many of us have done exactly the same thing with constituents who

:51:06.:51:07.

have had assessment that haven't turned out to be accurate. If she

:51:08.:51:12.

gives me the details, I'll look at the specific case and see what can

:51:13.:51:19.

be done. A report recently commissioned by transport for the

:51:20.:51:22.

North, a body created by this government, highlights the

:51:23.:51:25.

opportunity to uphold the growing divide between the north and South

:51:26.:51:29.

and creates several new jobs and billions of pounds of growth by

:51:30.:51:36.

2015. -- 2050. Does he agree that to build an elegant and prosperity we

:51:37.:51:40.

need to continue to rebalance infrastructure spending from London

:51:41.:51:42.

to the regions, particularly to the north of England? I think he is

:51:43.:51:48.

absolutely right. What that report shows is if we don't take the

:51:49.:51:52.

necessary actions, you are going to see a continued north-south divide

:51:53.:51:57.

and that's why we are committed, for instance, to seeing increased

:51:58.:52:01.

spending on transport infrastructure go up to ?61 billion of this

:52:02.:52:04.

Parliament and in my right honourable friend's area, we're

:52:05.:52:08.

spending ?380 million upgrading the A1 from Leeming to Barton, which

:52:09.:52:12.

will be a big boost for the local economy. I recently met a

:52:13.:52:19.

constituent whose husband, a British citizen, has been an Ethiopian's

:52:20.:52:24.

death row for two years and was kidnapped while travelling in and

:52:25.:52:27.

illegally rendered Ethiopian. You are sentenced to death six years ago

:52:28.:52:31.

as a trial he was neither present that nor able to present any defence

:52:32.:52:36.

in direct contravention of international law. Given it has been

:52:37.:52:43.

accessed two legal wrappers and Titian, and has not spoken to his

:52:44.:52:50.

family, there are reports he's suicidal. In your last few weeks in

:52:51.:52:57.

office, will you make the case for him to be allowed him to be

:52:58.:52:59.

re-elected with his wife and children? We are taking a very close

:53:00.:53:04.

interest in this case. The Foreign Secretary was an Ethiopian recently,

:53:05.:53:09.

our consul has been able to meet with the man in question on a number

:53:10.:53:13.

of occasions and we are working with him and the Ethiopian woman to try

:53:14.:53:18.

to get this resolved. One of the reports that won't get so much

:53:19.:53:21.

attention is the CQC report into North Middlesex Hospital, which

:53:22.:53:26.

confirms that emergency care is inadequate. Why has it taken so many

:53:27.:53:29.

years, and why does it need the regulators to know what many of my

:53:30.:53:33.

constituents will know, that there has been another quick effort to

:53:34.:53:37.

long, too few doctors, to view consultants? And the Primus assure

:53:38.:53:40.

me that we now have in place the right plans on the right number of

:53:41.:53:43.

doctors and consultants to ensure my constituents get the care they

:53:44.:53:48.

deserve? I think he raises an important point, which is that I do

:53:49.:53:54.

think the CQC is now acting effectively at getting into

:53:55.:53:57.

hospitals, finding bad practice, reported on its 50. In some cases

:53:58.:54:01.

that bad practice has always been there but we haven't been as

:54:02.:54:05.

effective in some cases as we should be at shining eyed and. What we have

:54:06.:54:08.

seen in North Middlesex is one of the busiest emergency department of

:54:09.:54:11.

the country, the practice was an acceptable. We've now got a new

:54:12.:54:15.

clinical director of the trust, additional two doctors in A and we

:54:16.:54:20.

have been the ones that have set up the role of the Chief Inspector of

:54:21.:54:23.

hospitals to have a zero tolerance approach to practice like this and

:54:24.:54:30.

make sure things are but right. The Secretary of State for Business,

:54:31.:54:33.

Innovation and Skills has stated he wants the UK to borrow tens of

:54:34.:54:36.

billions of pounds to create a green Britain fund worth up to 100

:54:37.:54:41.

billion. Can I ask the PM whether this is a formal plan or whether

:54:42.:54:45.

this is merely an attempt to come up with a plan amid a vacuum of

:54:46.:54:50.

government? We are spending billions of pounds on the British economy and

:54:51.:54:54.

an investment and that has clear consequences under the Barnett

:54:55.:54:58.

formula for Scotland but clearly my colleagues during a leadership

:54:59.:55:01.

election, and at least the side of the House we're actually having a

:55:02.:55:07.

leadership election, rather than the never-ending... I thought you wanted

:55:08.:55:13.

one. You don't want one? Hands up who wants a leadership election! Oh,

:55:14.:55:18.

they don't want a leadership election! I'm so confused. One

:55:19.:55:23.

minute it is like the Eagle is going to sweep and the next minute it is

:55:24.:55:27.

Eddie the camera crew eagle at the top of the ski jump, not knowing

:55:28.:55:31.

whether to go or not. Anyway, in case you hadn't noticed, we're

:55:32.:55:37.

having a leadership election. Right from the start this United Kingdom

:55:38.:55:41.

has been an outward looking, international trading nation. I'm

:55:42.:55:43.

very glad to see the Trade Minister... The honourable gentleman

:55:44.:55:48.

the Member for Worcester is entitled to be heard and his constituents are

:55:49.:55:54.

entitled to be represented. And glad to see the Trade Minister out in

:55:55.:55:57.

Hong Kong today talking up the prospects for investment in the

:55:58.:56:00.

British economy but what steps can the Prime Minister take to bolster

:56:01.:56:03.

the resources available to UKTI and the Foreign Office to make sure we

:56:04.:56:08.

attract as much trade and investment from the wider world is possible? P

:56:09.:56:12.

Maytin important point and a very clear instruction has gone out to

:56:13.:56:18.

all our embassies around the world, to UKTI, that we should be doing all

:56:19.:56:21.

we can to engage as hard as we can with other parts of the world start

:56:22.:56:25.

to think about those trade deals, those investment deals and the

:56:26.:56:28.

inward investment we want to see in the UK. Business is very clear to us

:56:29.:56:32.

as well, whether they agree or disagree with the decision the

:56:33.:56:35.

country is made, they know we've got to go on and make the most of the

:56:36.:56:42.

opportunities we have. With the real prospect of a recession on the

:56:43.:56:47.

horizon, the offer from the Chancellor is cutting corporation

:56:48.:56:52.

tax, yet companies worry whether they will make a profit in the UK,

:56:53.:56:56.

not how much tax they are going to pay on it, so can the Prime Minister

:56:57.:56:59.

tell us what immediate action his government would take to protect

:57:00.:57:03.

people's jobs and livelihoods right now? Immediate action has been

:57:04.:57:09.

taken, not least the Bank of England decision to encourage bank lending

:57:10.:57:14.

by changing the reserve asset ratios that they insist on and I think

:57:15.:57:17.

that's very important because that's a short-term measure that can have

:57:18.:57:21.

some early effect. Clearly what the Chancellor was talking about is now

:57:22.:57:24.

we are in this new situation, we need to make sure that we configure

:57:25.:57:28.

all our policies to take advantage of the situation that we're going to

:57:29.:57:31.

be in and that's going to mean changes to taxes, changes to the way

:57:32.:57:36.

UKTI works, there's going to be a change in focus for the Foreign

:57:37.:57:39.

Office and the business department. All these things we can make a start

:57:40.:57:42.

on irrespective of the fact that she and I were on the same side of the

:57:43.:57:48.

referendum campaign. Further to my honourable friend from Worcester's

:57:49.:57:51.

question about UKTI, may I remind the Prime Minister that next Monday

:57:52.:57:55.

the greatest airshow in the world takes place at Farnborough in my

:57:56.:57:59.

constituency, to which all honourable and right honourable

:58:00.:58:04.

members are expected to attend! And may I remind my honourable friend

:58:05.:58:10.

that last time, two years ago, deals worth $201 billion were signed at

:58:11.:58:13.

the Farnborough airshow and may I prevail upon my right honourable

:58:14.:58:17.

friend, who may have some time on his hands, to come and open the show

:58:18.:58:20.

on Monday and encourage all other ministers to attend? I think I'm one

:58:21.:58:25.

of the first prime ministers in a while to attend the Farnborough

:58:26.:58:27.

airshow and I'm very happy to announce that I will be going back

:58:28.:58:32.

there this year because I think it's very important. We have the second

:58:33.:58:35.

largest aerospace industry in the world after the United States, and

:58:36.:58:39.

it is a brilliant moment to showcase that industry to the rest of the

:58:40.:58:43.

world and to clinch some important export deals, both in the military

:58:44.:58:46.

and in the civilian space and I will always do everything I can, whether

:58:47.:58:50.

in this job or in future, to help support British industry in that

:58:51.:58:57.

way. The UN committee on economic social and cultural rights have

:58:58.:58:59.

recently joined the UN committee on the rights of a child in expressing

:59:00.:59:02.

serious concerns about this Tory government's brutal welfare cuts.

:59:03.:59:06.

How much more international condemnation would it take for this

:59:07.:59:10.

Prime Minister to scrap his aggressive to child policy and his

:59:11.:59:16.

rate" we've seen under this government many more people in work,

:59:17.:59:21.

many more households... Many fewer households where no one works and

:59:22.:59:24.

many fewer households where there are children when one works. All of

:59:25.:59:30.

this has been a huge success but she and her party now have the

:59:31.:59:34.

opportunity, now we've made some huge devolution proposals, including

:59:35.:59:38.

in the area of welfare, if you don't feel that what we're doing on a UK

:59:39.:59:42.

bases... I don't know why you're all shouting. You're getting these

:59:43.:59:45.

powers. Instead of whingeing endlessly, start to use them! Sir

:59:46.:59:52.

John Chilcot finds that the only people who come out of the 2003

:59:53.:59:57.

invasion of Iraq well our servicemen and civilians. Will the Prime

:59:58.:00:02.

Minister look at how he can make sure that the precedent he set last

:00:03.:00:07.

autumn for transparency and scrutiny ahead of military action becomes the

:00:08.:00:12.

norm for his successor? I think we have now got a set of arrangements

:00:13.:00:16.

and also a set of conventions that put the country in a stronger

:00:17.:00:21.

position. I think it is now a clear convention that we have a vote in

:00:22.:00:27.

this House, which we did on Iran, before military action, but it is

:00:28.:00:31.

also important that we have a properly constituted National

:00:32.:00:33.

Security Council, proper receipt of legal advice, a summary of that

:00:34.:00:36.

legal advice provided to the House of Commons, as we did both in the

:00:37.:00:41.

case of Libya and Iraq, and I think these things are growing up to be a

:00:42.:00:44.

set of conventions that will work for our country, but let me repeat

:00:45.:00:48.

again, even the best rules and conventions of the world doesn't

:00:49.:00:52.

mean that you always going to be confronted by easy decisions or ones

:00:53.:00:55.

that don't have very difficult consequences. The Prime Minister

:00:56.:01:02.

will no doubt be aware of my constituent Pauline Cafferkey, a

:01:03.:01:07.

nurse who contracted Ebola in Sierra Leone in 2014, and was there as part

:01:08.:01:15.

of the DFID response to the outbreak. She and around 200 the NHS

:01:16.:01:20.

volunteers have not received an equivalent bonus of ?4000 that was

:01:21.:01:27.

awarded to 250 Public Health England staff. Wilbur Prime Minister agreed

:01:28.:01:34.

to meet with me to discuss how DFID can rectify this situation. -- will

:01:35.:01:40.

the Prime Minister agree. Roll Pauline Cafferkey is one of the

:01:41.:01:43.

bravest people I've ever met and it was a great privilege to have come

:01:44.:01:46.

to Number Ten Downing St and I'm proud of the fact that she and many

:01:47.:01:50.

others, I believe, have received the medal for in Sierra Leone. It is

:01:51.:01:53.

something Britain should be incredibly proud of. We partnered

:01:54.:01:58.

with that country to deal with Ebola and it is now free of Ebola to talk

:01:59.:02:01.

I will look specifically into the issue of the bonus. I wasn't aware

:02:02.:02:05.

of that and I will get back to her about it.

:02:06.:02:14.

That is very much a warm up act today, because they are moving onto

:02:15.:02:20.

statements on the Chilcot Report, published this morning. The Prime

:02:21.:02:24.

Minister will make the opening remarks, followed by the Leader of

:02:25.:02:27.

the Opposition. There will be particular interest in what Jeremy

:02:28.:02:31.

Corbyn has to say. Jeremy Corbyn was strongly opposed to the action in

:02:32.:02:37.

Iraq. He will therefore speak as a labour leader who was not

:02:38.:02:40.

complicated in these decisions. We are going to keep across both of

:02:41.:02:44.

these speeches and we will bring you highlights of them, if we can,

:02:45.:02:49.

before one o'clock. Meanwhile, we return to Chilcot. Laura, are we any

:02:50.:02:55.

clearer what the political fallout will be? I think it will become

:02:56.:02:59.

clear today, in the coming weeks and months. As we were saying before,

:03:00.:03:03.

the strange thing about this is that the people that are criticising it

:03:04.:03:08.

are not really around any more. -- criticised in it. Jeremy Corbyn's

:03:09.:03:12.

response is likely to be strident. There is an expectation he might

:03:13.:03:15.

even call for Tony Blair to face legal action in his role in this. It

:03:16.:03:19.

is not clear he will do this. He will not just respond in the

:03:20.:03:22.

Commons, he will also make a big speech later on this afternoon. It

:03:23.:03:26.

has been a key part of his principal for many years. He was one of the

:03:27.:03:30.

foremost opponents of the war in Iraq. If he goes that far, it will

:03:31.:03:33.

be something that further heaps pressure on the Labour Party. Many

:03:34.:03:38.

MPs, many people like Charlie, sitting here, were very involved in

:03:39.:03:41.

the decision and supported the war in Iraq. Overall, as we were

:03:42.:03:47.

beginning to catch on, this is a document that shows that in future

:03:48.:03:51.

no government will be able to go into anything like this without

:03:52.:03:56.

feeling that there will be held to account, without feeling that their

:03:57.:04:00.

internal conversations, their private memos, all of their

:04:01.:04:03.

deliberations will, at one point in the future, be made public. There

:04:04.:04:08.

may also be consequences for our relationship with the United States.

:04:09.:04:12.

This document shows clearly that Tony Blair basically chose the

:04:13.:04:15.

United States rather than the United Nations, although he did try very

:04:16.:04:19.

hard to get the UN on board. We have had more than 20 private notes

:04:20.:04:22.

between Tony Blair and George Bush published today. Huge controversy

:04:23.:04:26.

about whether that should have happened or not. Now it has, it is a

:04:27.:04:30.

very serious precedent that has been set. Indeed, it will have lots of

:04:31.:04:35.

applications for future foreign policy. Let's go to the Central

:04:36.:04:42.

Lobby, Tony Blair's special envoy of the time, Ann Clwyd, joins us. For

:04:43.:04:50.

those that favoured the war, it is not happy reading is it? I have not

:04:51.:04:54.

had a chance to read it, unlike journalists who had it since 8:30am,

:04:55.:04:58.

we had to depend on Chilcot making his statement. I have not read it,

:04:59.:05:02.

but I know what some of the main points are. The main points were

:05:03.:05:06.

that the intelligence was unreliable, that we went to war on a

:05:07.:05:11.

wrong basis, it was premature because options have not been

:05:12.:05:17.

exhausted, and that the aftermath of the invasion was largely a disaster.

:05:18.:05:24.

That, we do know is in the Chilcot Report? We also know there were 17

:05:25.:05:29.

UN resolutions which Saddam Hussein had not complied with. He had used

:05:30.:05:34.

chemical weapons against the Kurds, and also against the Shia in the

:05:35.:05:41.

south. He had the capability and he had used them in the past. I went to

:05:42.:05:50.

Iraq in 2003, February 2003, I was with the Kurds. The Kurds were

:05:51.:05:53.

frightened that chemical weapons were going to be used again against

:05:54.:05:58.

them. They were already fleeing the city 's of northern Iraq. So, there

:05:59.:06:03.

was very real fear amongst them that Saddam would use those again. I was

:06:04.:06:08.

taken to the border with Iraq, the Kurdish Iraq border, and I was shown

:06:09.:06:13.

rocket placements in the hills where the Kurds told me they were going to

:06:14.:06:19.

be used against them. So they have their intelligence as well. Of

:06:20.:06:22.

course, but the Kurds were anxious for their own reasons, for us to

:06:23.:06:28.

intervene. That's what they wanted us to do. In the end, they couldn't

:06:29.:06:31.

have been in danger, it turned out he didn't have any chemical weapons

:06:32.:06:34.

to use against them any more. We went on to war on the basis that he

:06:35.:06:40.

did? Andrew, not only had he used weapons against the Kurds, he killed

:06:41.:06:51.

about 500,000 Shia in the south, mass graves, 10,000 people were

:06:52.:06:55.

buried there. I have been to the marshes, and he tried to eliminate

:06:56.:06:59.

the Arabs there. How many have been killed since we invaded? Well, we

:07:00.:07:10.

don't know. Hundreds of thousands, of course? But Saddam killed about a

:07:11.:07:14.

million of his own people. Do you think there is nothing in this

:07:15.:07:21.

report, from what you know so far, that gives you cause to reconsider

:07:22.:07:27.

your position at the time? Of course, but not the position at the

:07:28.:07:35.

time. On the basis of what we were told, Tony Blair was justified in

:07:36.:07:39.

taking the action he did. He thought he was doing the best thing for this

:07:40.:07:44.

country and also helping the Iraqis. The aftermath, the lack of planning,

:07:45.:07:54.

that is a serious criticism. I saw it myself, I went to Iraq about 23

:07:55.:07:59.

times. Indeed, I spoke to you about it afterwards. Can I ask you this

:08:00.:08:03.

about the aftermath and lack of planning, given that we and the

:08:04.:08:07.

Americans invaded, not because we thought Saddam was about to attack

:08:08.:08:11.

us, that was not on the cards, but because we thought he might be a

:08:12.:08:16.

danger and we wanted to make a better society in Iraq, why was

:08:17.:08:21.

there no planning for the aftermath? Why did we not have a plan to

:08:22.:08:26.

rebuild that society? After all, we have massive plans to rebuild

:08:27.:08:30.

Germany after the Second World War. It started in 1942, less than a mile

:08:31.:08:34.

from where I am. The Americans have massive plans to rebuild Japan after

:08:35.:08:40.

1945. Given the nature of our intervention, why did we not have

:08:41.:08:45.

plans to rebuild Iraq? Well, there were some plans. , Some? There were

:08:46.:08:53.

not sufficient. Some were to help civil society get back on its feet.

:08:54.:08:56.

I was involved in some of that planning. Also, we trained people in

:08:57.:09:01.

forensics, to help uncover the mass graves. We helped the legal system.

:09:02.:09:08.

They had to try some of the people involved in war crimes, crimes

:09:09.:09:13.

against humanity and genocide, we have plans for that. We trained

:09:14.:09:18.

people. It was wholly inadequate, wasn't it? I agree with you. We were

:09:19.:09:24.

the junior partner in the whole thing. The Americans also have to be

:09:25.:09:29.

criticised. Of course. But why did Mr Blair... We can find no evidence

:09:30.:09:40.

that Mr Blair, having voluntarily joined in this event, had made any

:09:41.:09:45.

attempt at all to ensure the Americans have a proper plan, that

:09:46.:09:49.

we would be part of, to rebuild Iraq after the invasion. Well, I think

:09:50.:09:53.

there was planning. You know, there was quite detailed planning, but not

:09:54.:10:00.

enough, certainly, with hindsight, clearly not enough. It is not fair

:10:01.:10:03.

to say there was no planning, there was, and we attempted to rebuild

:10:04.:10:10.

Iraq. We retrained civil society, for example. I saw it first hand. I

:10:11.:10:17.

think we can both agree it was not a huge success and still hasn't been.

:10:18.:10:22.

Ann Clwyd, we will leave it there. What did happen is that the State

:10:23.:10:25.

Department had substantial plans. There was even an area in Washington

:10:26.:10:35.

called Iraq Shack. President Bush took responsibility out of the state

:10:36.:10:40.

department's hands and go to the Pentagon, who never had

:10:41.:10:42.

responsibility for building a society after a war, it was an

:10:43.:10:47.

unprecedented change because he didn't trust the State Department,

:10:48.:10:52.

but he trusted Donald Rumsfeld on the Pentagon. A huge error? He

:10:53.:10:57.

installed his own people. Paul Bremer went in as governor of that

:10:58.:11:01.

province. Despite Ann Clwyd trying to defend the planning efforts that

:11:02.:11:07.

went in before, it is clear when you read the report, quite astonishing,

:11:08.:11:10.

there is evidence in there that suggests that the Cabinet did not

:11:11.:11:16.

discuss military options, on the 17th of March, less than a week

:11:17.:11:20.

before the invasion, there have not been a full discussion of military

:11:21.:11:27.

options. Chilcot lists 11 specific, significant points when decisions

:11:28.:11:31.

were taken that were not, and in his view should have been taken and

:11:32.:11:35.

discussed properly other Cabinet, they were taken elsewhere and there

:11:36.:11:38.

were lots of private side conversations. Sometimes it was just

:11:39.:11:45.

between Tony Blair and Jack Straw, sometimes between Tony Blair and

:11:46.:11:49.

George Bush. One of the themes is that Cabinet ministers at the time

:11:50.:11:52.

were not included in the decision-making. Is that right? I

:11:53.:11:57.

was not in the Cabinet at the time. I have not read the report, Laura

:11:58.:12:03.

has read the executive summary, the idea that during this period there

:12:04.:12:07.

wasn't a great decision that had to be taken for the nation, and in

:12:08.:12:12.

particular for the Government, is, I think, not an accurate impression.

:12:13.:12:18.

Sure that have involved more people? That's the point. The Cabinet

:12:19.:12:25.

discussed regularly. Laura will correct me if I am wrong, Sir John

:12:26.:12:29.

Chilcot's criticism is that there is no formal minuted report beforehand.

:12:30.:12:40.

This idea that it was a secret drumbeat to war is not accurate. But

:12:41.:12:51.

it echoes Butler's report on talking about a sofa cabinet? Basically,

:12:52.:12:57.

they are saying we did not know what he was up to. There was huge public

:12:58.:13:00.

concern about what we were doing. The point Chilcot makes is that in

:13:01.:13:05.

no way were any of the processes that we might expect from

:13:06.:13:09.

politicians on a decision with this level of gravity, in no way where

:13:10.:13:12.

they followed. You are right, it wasn't a secret that these issues

:13:13.:13:17.

were being considered. Let me ask you a wider foreign policy point.

:13:18.:13:21.

Can I just pick you up on that? There was a secret? That is how it

:13:22.:13:30.

was done? Not only was it secret, there was deliberate deceit, I don't

:13:31.:13:35.

think that Chilcot says that. People think there was a secret agreement

:13:36.:13:39.

between Mr Bush and Mr Blair to proceed. Let me come to Julian

:13:40.:13:43.

Lewis. When I was last in Washington, a White House aide said

:13:44.:13:49.

to me wintergreen din Iraq and occupied Iraq, disaster. We

:13:50.:13:54.

intervened in Libya, but we did not occupy Libya, disaster. We have

:13:55.:13:58.

neither intervened or occupied Syria, disaster. What is the foreign

:13:59.:14:03.

policy of location? The answer to all of this is sometimes there are

:14:04.:14:10.

no good outcomes to be had. Where your parallel with planning after

:14:11.:14:14.

the defeat of Germany and Japan breaks down, with respect, is that

:14:15.:14:19.

Germany and Japan had to undergo the process of unconditional surrender.

:14:20.:14:25.

While I indicated earlier in the conversation, what happens in these

:14:26.:14:29.

countries is that if you remove the dictatorship, then the thousand year

:14:30.:14:42.

old hatreds between the Sunni kiss, Shias, it comes flooding out front

:14:43.:14:51.

and centre. With intervening or not intervening, leaving dictators in

:14:52.:15:00.

place, they ruled brutally, if you remove them, you get civil war, at a

:15:01.:15:07.

parallel, imagine this country 700 or 800 years ago, were the sort of

:15:08.:15:10.

people running the country would not hesitate to burn heretics at the

:15:11.:15:13.

stake because they had a different interpretation of what Almighty God

:15:14.:15:17.

was telling them should happen in this country. If you want to get

:15:18.:15:22.

into that mindset and say what would happen, if you tried to impose a

:15:23.:15:25.

democratic model, you get an idea of what happens in these countries when

:15:26.:15:30.

you do the same thing. But did we know that in 2003? I don't know, is

:15:31.:15:36.

the answer. I was in opposition and I would have thought we did. Wait a

:15:37.:15:43.

minute, we knew because we created Iraq. We put Shia and Sunni

:15:44.:15:50.

together. And Kurds! We created this artificial state.

:15:51.:15:55.

And we're talking about events which happened decades earlier and the

:15:56.:15:59.

institutional memory of the Foreign Office should be able to cope with

:16:00.:16:03.

that and, what's more, they did because in the first Gulf War, that

:16:04.:16:09.

was probably the reason that they decided, having thrown out Saddam

:16:10.:16:13.

Hussein from Kuwait, and no one has once mentioned that all this really

:16:14.:16:21.

started with Saddam's invasion of Kuwait. Of it have been further,

:16:22.:16:24.

there would have been no question of trying to depose him later. Briefly,

:16:25.:16:35.

one of the most important thing is that we haven't mentioned that also

:16:36.:16:40.

comes across in the report, is how 9/11 changed this, changed the

:16:41.:16:43.

political culture in the US, changed the political culture here and one

:16:44.:16:46.

of the most interesting documents but has come out this morning is a

:16:47.:16:50.

document that was sent by Tony Blair to George Bush on the war against

:16:51.:16:56.

terror, phase two, in which they discussed Afghanistan and he lays

:16:57.:16:59.

out what he calls an argument for Iraq in the longer term. I won't go

:17:00.:17:04.

into the detail of it now but all of those documents are now out in

:17:05.:17:09.

public for all of us to see, but 9/11 is what changed the dynamic of

:17:10.:17:13.

so much of this and you can't forget that in terms of the climate that it

:17:14.:17:17.

had created. Is intervention always wrong? I was generally in favour of

:17:18.:17:23.

interventions if you thought you could get a better outcome but what

:17:24.:17:28.

this has shown us is that you have to work on the basis that if the

:17:29.:17:33.

outcome that follows is worse than the situation you start with, then

:17:34.:17:37.

you shouldn't interfere with it. And we were fooled over Libya. Did you

:17:38.:17:44.

support Libya? I voted very reluctantly for a no-fly zone to

:17:45.:17:48.

protect the citizens of Benghazi. We were misled over that. The moment we

:17:49.:17:53.

voted for it they had an all-out aerial offensive to destroy Gadhafi.

:17:54.:17:57.

I would never have voted for that. How did you fall for a no-fly zone

:17:58.:18:01.

to protect Benghazi one Gadhafi had said he was going to go door-to-door

:18:02.:18:06.

on the ground? Why would a no-fly zone protect the people of Benghazi?

:18:07.:18:10.

Because the idea would have been that the aerial forces would have

:18:11.:18:17.

been used to interfere with any attack... So it's not a no-fly zone.

:18:18.:18:24.

All I can say is, this is the basis on which we were told in parliament

:18:25.:18:29.

we were doing something to protect the citizens of Benghazi. We were

:18:30.:18:33.

not told that it was an attempt to bring down Gadhafi. If we had been,

:18:34.:18:38.

I would have voted against it and that's why I did vote against the

:18:39.:18:44.

proposal to do the same in Syria. David Cameron is still speaking. Not

:18:45.:18:49.

saying anything out of the ordinary yet but he is still going on and

:18:50.:18:52.

there will hear from Mr Cobb and. Laura, a final thought? This report

:18:53.:18:57.

is clear, polite but damning in its conclusions. The intelligence

:18:58.:18:59.

failed, the government failed, the military failed, the planning failed

:19:00.:19:03.

and I think therefore it will be very hard for people to put the Iraq

:19:04.:19:06.

war down to anything but one of the biggest foreign policy mistakes in

:19:07.:19:10.

recent decades. Tony Blair will be speaking about it this afternoon and

:19:11.:19:13.

there are very, very serious questions for him to answer. It's a

:19:14.:19:17.

busy day for you. Thanks for being with us.

:19:18.:19:19.

We are joined by the Labour MP and now Shadow Leader of the House

:19:20.:19:23.

of Commons Paul Flynn, who voted against military

:19:24.:19:25.

Many people have long held the view that Tony Blair went to war on false

:19:26.:19:32.

premise because there no weapons of mass destruction but there's nothing

:19:33.:19:37.

in the Chilcot Report so far, and we haven't seen all of it, that says

:19:38.:19:41.

that that decision was made with any deliberate deceit or intention. To

:19:42.:19:45.

you accept that? They had evidence that it was in this document, which

:19:46.:19:52.

is a 15 page report about Mr Husain cabal which they used... Blair used

:19:53.:19:57.

it to say, this is evidence that they have weapons of mass to

:19:58.:20:01.

structure, but the latter part of the same document, which he didn't

:20:02.:20:04.

quote, said they'd already got rid of them eight years earlier. So

:20:05.:20:10.

there was definite deception by Tony Blair and the evidence was as it

:20:11.:20:16.

says, it was slight and sporadic but I'm afraid this is an utter

:20:17.:20:18.

condemnation of that terrible decision to go to war, which

:20:19.:20:23.

resulted in the immediate deaths, the injuries to our troops, the

:20:24.:20:29.

150,000 Iraqis at least, and the chaos that continues in Iraq. What

:20:30.:20:34.

do you think, if anything, action should be taken against Tony Blair?

:20:35.:20:38.

I think today there should be serious consideration to him being

:20:39.:20:42.

prosecuted for this but I think this remains to be seen. Where would he

:20:43.:20:48.

be prosecuted? That remains to be seen. Most of us have just seen the

:20:49.:20:51.

summary of the report. The important issue is not one individual.

:20:52.:20:56.

Parliament is on trial. It wasn't just Tony Blair, it was most of the

:20:57.:21:01.

Labour backbenchers, it was all of the Tory backbenchers except half a

:21:02.:21:08.

dozen, and it's those 139 Labour people at the time, MPs, who voted

:21:09.:21:12.

against, a three line whip on this, and the minor parties who opposed

:21:13.:21:16.

this, and the 1 million people that walk the streets. It wasn't clear

:21:17.:21:20.

there should be a case for war to talk there was more opposition to it

:21:21.:21:24.

in 2003 than almost any war we've ever had. This was a terrible

:21:25.:21:29.

decision. I'm going to put that to Charlie Falconer in just a minute

:21:30.:21:32.

but when you say you think there was a case for prosecution, the

:21:33.:21:35.

International Criminal Court will not put Tony Blair on trial for war

:21:36.:21:40.

crimes because decisions on launching a conflict are outside its

:21:41.:21:43.

dream it. The tribunal will only look at things on atrocities that

:21:44.:21:48.

took place on the battlefield. So I ask again, prosecution isn't really

:21:49.:21:50.

something that's going to happen, is it? Can we say, this is not about

:21:51.:21:56.

one man, this is about the system. You said you thought there should be

:21:57.:22:00.

prosecution. But that is a minor matter. The important thing is we

:22:01.:22:03.

never do this again. You've got a gung ho group in the Parliament,

:22:04.:22:09.

called the Give War Chance Party, who want to shoot first and think

:22:10.:22:13.

later. They are still at it in this House. It wasn't just Tony Blair, it

:22:14.:22:17.

was three select committees that were gung ho for war, it was the

:22:18.:22:22.

Leader of the Opposition. Let me put that our guests. Are you in the Give

:22:23.:22:29.

War A Chance Party? Absolutely not, and I think the decision to use

:22:30.:22:32.

force in any circumstances has to be one made only after the most

:22:33.:22:37.

profound... The Chilcot Inquiry makes it clear that those weren't

:22:38.:22:40.

exhaustive, that actually it wasn't in the end of the last resort. Like

:22:41.:22:45.

Paul, I haven't read the report yet. I'm not disputing that it says that

:22:46.:22:50.

but what... That was put to me earlier in the programme and my

:22:51.:22:53.

response that was that a decision had to be made in March 2003 with

:22:54.:22:58.

the troops down there as to what was the way to enforce the regime. But

:22:59.:23:05.

what about this gung ho way but Paul Flynn is describing people like you

:23:06.:23:09.

on select committees who actually just want, in a way, to look at war

:23:10.:23:14.

first? That's as interesting generalisation. The truth is there

:23:15.:23:17.

are people like me who strongly supported and veg and sometimes and

:23:18.:23:20.

strongly opposed it on other occasions. You must judge each in

:23:21.:23:23.

its own context and it's worth remembering... I went to the Hutton

:23:24.:23:28.

in Greek, which looks at the death of Dr David Kelly, and there was a

:23:29.:23:34.

quote there from doctor Kelly himself, which very briefly said,

:23:35.:23:38.

"It is very easy to hide weapons of mass to structure and, you silly did

:23:39.:23:41.

a whole of the desert, put them inside, cover them with a tarpaulin,

:23:42.:23:45.

and they would be almost impossible to discover". It is very easy now to

:23:46.:23:48.

say that after the invasion there was nothing there. We couldn't know

:23:49.:23:52.

it at the time. Paul Flynn, thank you very much for joining us.

:23:53.:23:57.

The Prime Minister has been giving his response to the Chilcot Report.

:23:58.:24:00.

Is also been talking about when intervention is justified and when

:24:01.:24:06.

it is not and circumstances can very. Let's hear what he had to say.

:24:07.:24:11.

There will be further lessons to learn from studying this report and

:24:12.:24:14.

I commit today David Batty is exactly what we will do but in

:24:15.:24:18.

reflecting on this report and my own experience, there are also some

:24:19.:24:24.

lessons here that I do not think we should draw. First, it would be

:24:25.:24:28.

wrong to conclude that we shouldn't stand with our American allies when

:24:29.:24:30.

our common security interests are threatened. We must never be afraid

:24:31.:24:36.

to speak frankly and honesty as best friends always should, and where we

:24:37.:24:38.

commit our trips together there must be a structure through which our

:24:39.:24:41.

views can be proper league conveyed and differences worked through. But

:24:42.:24:45.

it remains the case that Britain and America share the same fundamental

:24:46.:24:49.

values and Britain has no greater friend or ally in the world than

:24:50.:24:52.

America and our partnership remains as important that our security and

:24:53.:24:58.

prosperity as it has ever been. Second, I think it would be wrong to

:24:59.:25:02.

conclude that we cannot rely on the judgments of our brilliant and

:25:03.:25:05.

hard-working intelligence agencies. We know the debt we owe them in

:25:06.:25:10.

helping to keep us safe of the year. Since November 2014, they've enabled

:25:11.:25:15.

us to foil seven different planned terrorist attacks on the streets of

:25:16.:25:19.

the UK. What this report shows is there needs to be a proper

:25:20.:25:23.

separation between the assessing intelligence and the policy-making

:25:24.:25:27.

that flows from it and as a result of the reforms of the Butler report,

:25:28.:25:30.

that is what we now have in place. That is the Prime Minister

:25:31.:25:34.

responding. Jeremy Corbyn is now responding and we are going to give

:25:35.:25:38.

you a clip of that in a moment. He has said that the war has long been

:25:39.:25:45.

regarded as illegal but he is not expected, we understand, to call for

:25:46.:25:51.

the prosecution of Mr Blair. There is and, perhaps, enough ammunition

:25:52.:25:55.

to do that. From what Laura was saying, it is not making a

:25:56.:25:58.

conclusion one way or the other as to whether it is illegal, as I

:25:59.:26:03.

understand what is Laura is saying. It is saying the process was not

:26:04.:26:05.

right but they are not saying that the conclusion that it was a legal

:26:06.:26:10.

war is wrong. I understand they are expressing no view one way or the

:26:11.:26:14.

other in relation to that. It is not a legal tribunal, it is looking at

:26:15.:26:19.

the facts and the processes. The Suez, as we look back, was a

:26:20.:26:22.

watershed in British foreign policy and Britain's position in the world,

:26:23.:26:28.

indeed, because many concluded that we couldn't act on our own any more

:26:29.:26:31.

without American support. Of course, the Falklands sort of disproves that

:26:32.:26:36.

in a way, but is Iraq a watershed? Because we had Libya since and there

:26:37.:26:41.

was... Our planes are active in the skies over Iraq and Syria. How would

:26:42.:26:47.

you place it now? I think it is a watershed in terms of our

:26:48.:26:50.

understanding of the limitations of what any intervention can do, in a

:26:51.:26:57.

society which is still dominated by religious divides extending back for

:26:58.:27:04.

hundreds and hundreds of years, and what really needs to worry us is

:27:05.:27:09.

that these societies have a doctrine, extreme religious variance

:27:10.:27:14.

of Islam, that has a worldwide appeal a bit like the communist or

:27:15.:27:19.

international Marxist doctrines used to have and that's where we have to

:27:20.:27:23.

constantly understand that if we leave things to develop, it can make

:27:24.:27:27.

the situation worse but if we intervene, it can make the situation

:27:28.:27:30.

worse as well. There are no easy answers and the best general

:27:31.:27:35.

approach is one of containment. Home if you do, hung if you don't. This

:27:36.:27:40.

illustrates both the difficulty and Laura's point, this will be the most

:27:41.:27:44.

examined decision on foreign policy which will affect foreign policy

:27:45.:27:47.

decisions of the future because of the lessons we learn and because

:27:48.:27:50.

rightly we now know there will be an absolute spotlight, rightly so, in

:27:51.:27:55.

the future did not We've only got a few minutes but let us hear what

:27:56.:27:58.

Jeremy Corbyn has had to say before we go. The decision to invade and

:27:59.:28:05.

occupy Iraq in March 2003 was the most significant foreign policy

:28:06.:28:08.

decisions taken by a British Government in modern times. It

:28:09.:28:14.

divided this House and set the government of the day against a

:28:15.:28:18.

majority of the British people, as well as against the weight of global

:28:19.:28:23.

opinion. The war was not in anyway, as Sir John Chilcot says, a last

:28:24.:28:28.

resort. Frankly, it was an act of military aggression launched on a

:28:29.:28:32.

false pretext, as the inquiry act sets, and has long been regarded as

:28:33.:28:37.

illegal by the overwhelming weight of international legal opinion. It

:28:38.:28:43.

led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people and the

:28:44.:28:47.

displacement of millions of refugees. It devastated Iraq's

:28:48.:28:52.

infrastructure and society. Mr Corbyn. Much more on the one o'clock

:28:53.:28:58.

news coming up now on BBC One. Much more, of course, on the BBC News

:28:59.:29:02.

Channel throughout the day, and in all our major newscasts this evening

:29:03.:29:06.

and through into tomorrow. Thanks for joining us. We're finished for

:29:07.:29:08.

the day. Bye-bye.

:29:09.:29:12.

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