07/07/2016 Daily Politics


07/07/2016

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn assess fallout from the Chilcot report. Also on the programme: the next stage of the Conservative Party leadership contest and Jeremy Corbyn's future.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning, folks, and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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It was a damning indictment of his conduct.

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But, after the Chilcot Report, Tony Blair insists we would be

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in a worse position if he hadn't taken us into the Iraq War.

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But is his reputation damaged beyond repair?

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Morning, thank you so much for coming.

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Do you think Mr Blair should be prosecuted?

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Silence on the issue from Jeremy Corbyn this morning.

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So, can Labour get over its Iraq legacy?

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Conservative MPs are voting to decide which two leadership

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candidates will be be put to the party's membership.

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Will Gove or Leadsom survive the day?

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Alcohol has oiled the cogs of politics for as long

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But does it help or hinder the machinery of Government?

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Cheers! What do you think?

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And sitting here in the studio stone-cold sober for a whole hour

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today, how will we cope, is the former Conservative MP

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Tony Blair was not on trial and Sir John Chilcot does not

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the headline writers have made their own mind up this morning

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The Chilcot Report is perhaps the most comprehensive account

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of the build-up to a war, its conduct and its

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So, what do its 2.5 million words say about the role of politicians,

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the intelligence services and the military?

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Sir John Chilcot's report spans almost a decade of UK

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Government policy decisions between 2001 and 2009.

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On military action, Sir John said the UK chose to join the invasion

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"before the peaceful options for disarmament had been exhausted".

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Tony Blair wrote to George W Bush eight months before the Iraq

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invasion to offer his unqualified backing well before UN

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weapons inspectors had complete their work,

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saying: "I will be with you, whatever."

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On weapons of mass destruction, the report found that judgments

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about the severity of the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass

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destruction or WMD were made "with a certainty

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On the legal case, the circumstances in which it was decided

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that there was a legal basis for UK military action were "far

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On military preparedness, Sir John found there was "little

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time" to properly prepare three military brigades for

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The risks were neither "properly identified nor fully

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exposed" to ministers, resulting in "equipment shortfalls".

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On the aftermath, despite explicit warnings, the consequences of the

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invasion were underestimated. The planning and preparations for Iraq

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after Saddam Hussein were wholly inadequate.

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I'm joined now by Labour MP Ben Bradshaw.

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Tony Blair said yesterday, I made the right decision and the world is

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better and safer, do you agree? Yes, I do. If we had left Saddam

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Hussein in place and his sons, the most brutal dictator the world has

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seen since the Second World War, who had used chemical weapons, who had

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invaded two neighbouring countries, the last group that went in off

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inspectors said he would reconstitute his weapons programme,

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Tony is probably right. At the same time, we need to learn the lessons

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just outlined, many of which are serious and critical.

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How can the world be safer when the whole Middle East is in chaos? And

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spawning terrorist groups that threaten all of us.

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You know as well as I do, Islamic terrorism goes back far beyond Iraq.

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It has never been worse. Long before 9/11. Look at Syria...

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Appoint Tony was making was these judgments are always really

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difficult. In the end, prime ministers have to make judgments.

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Those who do not agree with those judgments need to reflect on what

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the alternative would have been. Saddam Hussein was not behind

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Islamic extremism. You are right. The context at the

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time, soon after 9/11, was not just about whether he supported Islamic

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extremism, it was about the danger of weapons of mass destruction.

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But he didn't have any. We now know that. But the consensus of all the

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intelligence agencies, not just our own, but across the western world,

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Germany, France, was that he did. They moan more equivocal.

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-- they were. We knew from the UN he had no nuclear programme, that could

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be rolled out. There were reports he had some chemical capability, that

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turned out to be false. Where was the threat it is true Iraq was not a

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land of Islington liberalism when he was there. Nor was it a threat to

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us. It is possible to argue that there have been far more deaths and

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far more misery in Iraq since the invasion than before it.

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We know there were millions of deaths before. That he invaded two

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countries. He had used chemical weapons. He murdered the Kurds in

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the north, the Marsh Arabs in the south.

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What Sir John Chilcot made clear yesterday, one of the allegations

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levelled at Tony, was that there was some fabrication or deceit around

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the intelligence. That has been put to rest.

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Chilcott says the intelligence should have been challenged.

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And it was but not enough. Not challenged by Mr Blair. That is

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not what he said this morning. In the end, we rely on our intelligence

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services to give us accurate intelligence that they have tested.

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You are right the intelligence was wrong but we have known this since

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the Butler report. The intelligence was across the

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developed world. We took it on good faith and made that decision on good

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faith. The other allegations made against

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Tony that somehow the Cabinet was misled or there was a secret prior

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agreement to go to war, all those things in the report had been laid

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to rest. I put it to you the Cabinet was not

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involved. At no stage did it take a decision to go to war.

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I am sorry, the Cabinet was involved in discussions. I wasn't a member so

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I wasn't there. There was a parliamentary vote and for the first

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time in British history the Prime Minister gave Parliament a vote.

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Knowing what we know today would you still have voted the way you did?

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Yes. With the benefit of hindsight, I am not one of those people...

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That is a cop out. Explain that. The motion that took us to war was full

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of references to WMD and the threat of those. We now know today there

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were no weapons of mass destruction. How could you have rated given what

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you know today, voted that motion? Because my prime motivation for

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voting to that motion was a humanitarian one, to uphold the

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integrity of the UN. You are going against the UN, they

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didn't back you. There was a record 17 mandatory

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resolutions against Saddam Hussain, unique in modern history.

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But, I am amazed that you say you would still vote for emotion full of

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references to the threat of WMD even though you know now there was no

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WMD. People will find that bizarre. You may find it bizarre. I am not

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the only one. Many people including my colleagues, good people, who have

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spent their life time focusing and working on Saddam's abuse of human

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rights, who would have done exactly the same. Their main motivation, if

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you look at the debate on that day, it did not focus on the intelligence

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but on the UN resolutions and upholding the integrity of the

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resolutions. Even though you couldn't get a

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resolution through paving the way to war which is why the French wouldn't

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go for it. Even though the report shows you

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haven't exhausted the options for war, there were other options.

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That there was no proper post-war planning for the aftermath.

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No WMD. And we didn't equip our army properly to fight. Despite all that,

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you would still proceed with what you did then.

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Those last three criticisms are legitimate and should be taken on

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board. But I do not agree with his finding. If you listen to what Sir

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Gerry Greenstock said today, do I agree there was somehow more time we

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could have given Saddam -- Jeremy. We could have given him more time?

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30 days to comply and he hadn't complied.

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Sir John Chilcot himself said we might have had to go to war. It is

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easy for him to say that but when you are Prime Minister and faced

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with this decision, the decision you take is based on a judgments. Given

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the history of Saddam Hussein, all the games he played with the UN, and

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his record, that was the decision Tony Blair faced, and I still think

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you took the right decision based on what we knew at that time in good

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faith. After the invasion of Kuwait when

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the collision kick him out, much of his army was broken. We now know he

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ended his attempt to have WMD. His status in the region was in decline.

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If we hadn't invaded, in what way would Saddam Hussein have been a

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threat? Look at what has happened in Syria

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as a result of non-intervention, where you have a similarly brutal

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dictator, where far more people have died. We have the biggest refugee

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crisis since World War II. We can't be sure that would have happened.

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Given Saddam's record and what happened in the Arab Spring...

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In what way would Saddam had been a threat to our allies in the region

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or to us? If he had stayed in power? We know from the last report of the

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Iraqi inspection group he would have tried to redevelop his nuclear

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weapons of mass to programme. You know what they found, one disk.

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But they talked to people in his regime, and it was quite clear from

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their report, it is in the Chilcot Report if he had stayed, he would

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have done this. He had done it before. The idea if we had left him

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in place, Iraq would have been some great, peaceful...

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No one is saying that. You are asking me to say with certainty what

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would have happened in Iraq if we have left Saddam in place. The

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closest parallel is what we have seen in Syria. That is why we must

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learn the lessons of this report but please let us not learn the wrong

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lessons which is that it is never right and justified to intervene.

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Matthew Parris? Listening, I get some sense of why the Labour left

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and the Jeremy Corbyn faction are so angry, of what drives them at this

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denial of a total catastrophe. I was against the Iraq war from the start.

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But it was not a crime. It was worse, a huge blunder, a chapter of

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miscalculations and incompetence. Two charges laid against Tony Blair

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go too far, however. That he knowingly lied. I don't think he did

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and I didn't think the Chilcot Report suggests it. And that he had

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private understandings with the US president, I don't think it is wrong

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for statesmen to have private understandings with other statesmen,

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even if in this case they lead to a catastrophe.

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The wedding, I will be with you what ever. But... Remember, at that time,

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Tony's priority was to get the US to go down the UN route. We did go down

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the UN route. There were no caveats to the word,

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what ever. What follows in that memo is the need to get a wider coalition

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together. Nope caveats to, I will be with you, what ever.

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Any fair-minded person reading the rest of the note would see it in the

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context of a British Prime Minister trying to persuade the American

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Government when we knew that Donald Rumsfeld wasn't interested in going

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down the UN route, and it did happen.

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But he did say, if we don't get UN support, I am not with you.

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In a further note from Bush, he made quite clear that if the UN route

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succeeded there would be no military action. That was the context in

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which Tony Blair was persuading the Americans.

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Stay with us because there are developments in this attempted slow

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motion coup in the Labour Party. Len McCluskey, the biggest union leader

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in their country was questioned about reports

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asked Owain Smith and Angela Eagle to hold off a leadership challenge.

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we are seeking time, we are asking people to give us time. There is no

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haste here, no rush for anybody to declare. We are asking people to

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give us a little bit of time to see what we can do. It looks like they

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have agreed to that, so this isn't just a slow motion coup, it's a coup

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without a leader. I would not call it a coup when the majority of your

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Shadow Cabinet and people who have served you loyally for ten months

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have decided you are not the right person to lead the party. It's more

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like a strike. I hope he succeeds for the sake of the country.

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Succeeds in asking Jimmy Corrigan to stand down? Absolutely, we need a

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competent and well lit progressive centre-left party to speak for the

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48% of the population who voted to remain. Why won't anyone step

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forward? I think what people are trying to do is give Jeremy that

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space to be persuaded... I don't get the feeling Len McCluskey will try

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to tell Jeremy Corbyn to step down. It was said that talks have been

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productive and they need more time to reach a resolution over the

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weekend and you must be hoping that Len McCluskey says it is time to go

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to Jeremy Corbyn. It sounds to me that Len McCluskey is thinking they

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could build bridges? We are trying to read the mind of Len McCluskey

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which is not always the easiest thing. The vast majority of those

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colleagues, Labour MPs who have worked very hard with Jeremy to try

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to make this work would like and hope that he can persuade Jeremy to

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do the right thing for the party. If somebody doesn't step forward we

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have a dysfunctional opposition don't we? I have no doubt this can't

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go on for much longer and if somebody doesn't... If Jeremy cannot

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be persuaded to step down and do the right thing there will be a

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challenge. It would drag on indefinitely. Is it not remarkable

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that even though after the referendum the Tories formed a

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circular firing squad and behaved in a way that made even the Oxford

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University will up that they may resolve, they will probably resolve

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their leadership problems before your party? That wouldn't be for the

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first time, the Conservatives tend to be much more effective and brutal

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in how they deal with their leaders and settle leadership contests. Ben

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Bradshaw, thank you very much for being with us.

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Earlier this morning, Tony Blair expressed regret

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that he didn't challenge intelligence about Saddam

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Hussein's supposed weapons of mass destruction.

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But he insisted he still believed he was right to overthrow

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He was speaking on Radio 4's Today Progamme.

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I agree completely when you go back over it, for example

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on intelligence, yes, in retrospect, it would be

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I understand the mistakes of planning, there are lots

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of things I will take responsibility for and express deep regret for.

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It was the biggest decision I ever took in Government.

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But, sometimes, the problem is that I feel, until I say to people, OK,

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I wish we had not joined the American coalition,

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that we had not got rid of Saddam, until I say that, people will not

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I can regret the mistakes, many things about it.

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But I genuinely believe not just that we acted out of good motives

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I sincerely believe we would be in a worse position

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These are incredibly difficult judgments.

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Why don't they just see the disagree? Tony Blair this morning,

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they should turn that into a TV show.

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I'm joined now by the George Galloway, the leader

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The Chilcot report has been described by many as robust and even

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damning, do you share that judgment? Utterly damning and even more so

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because it came from the heart of the establishment. When it was

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appointed I described it as a parade of establishment flunkies which they

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did not turn out to be, but they the establishment. John Chilcot has

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performed a National Service and in the neck of time, the British state

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was rocking after Brexit, the expenses scandal. I would say give

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him a knighthood but Tony Blair already gave him one, Sir John

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Chilcot has pulled some iron is out of the fire for us. He has recovered

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some national honour although as we have been listening to their are

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some like those Japanese soldiers who used to be found on the mort

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islands coming out of a Vauxhall still declaring their undying

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loyalty to the Emperor. There are such people still around and one has

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just been on your programme. But the will of the people is that John

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Chilcot was right and with all the Augusta language and demeanour that

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he displayed yesterday it seems to me utterly damning and no road back.

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Do you therefore accept that Chilcot does not show or claim that Tony

:21:47.:21:52.

Blair lied? You can only know what is in somebody's heart and mind if

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you are the mighty. The fact is whether he was the idiot or a nave

:21:58.:22:06.

the same results. I think it has opened up now and I am sure as we

:22:07.:22:09.

are speaking lawyers are working on it. Joshua Rosenberg wrote in The

:22:10.:22:17.

Guardian this morning, it opens up the door for Tony Blair having to

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appear in court. What would be the basis for that since Chilcot does

:22:24.:22:26.

not opine on the issue of whether this was an illegal war? Perhaps it

:22:27.:22:32.

does not provide evidence that it was an illegal war, what would be

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the legal basis of the walk in charge? Misconduct. I don't think it

:22:37.:22:43.

would be war criminal charges, it would be misconduct in public

:22:44.:22:47.

office. There is plenty in Chilcot to demonstrate that the use of his

:22:48.:22:52.

primer studio towers were reckless. To establish a case of misuse,

:22:53.:23:01.

misconduct in public office. I am sure the wide, mothers, fathers and

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even children of those who fell in the British forces are examining and

:23:05.:23:11.

exploring these options. You think the war, no road which many on the

:23:12.:23:16.

left have talked about, that that is pretty much for closed at misconduct

:23:17.:23:22.

in public office could still be a legal route to pursue? Yes, the ICC

:23:23.:23:29.

doesn't have the power to punish aggressive war, even unlawful war

:23:30.:23:34.

although I have asked the Pope to punish it today. It is established

:23:35.:23:38.

in Chilcot that Tony Blair waged what we call on just war, the

:23:39.:23:43.

catholic teaching is very clear from Saint Thomas on this. Unjust war

:23:44.:23:48.

where all other options have not been explored. You are bringing the

:23:49.:23:53.

Pope into this? Yes, I think Catholics all over the world deserve

:23:54.:23:58.

the holy Father to opine on this but that's perhaps are rarefied issue

:23:59.:24:04.

only for Catholics. But the ICC cannot because its statutes don't

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allow it to prosecute war prior... It does not define what an

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aggressive war would be. What do you make of, not the war, no road, many

:24:14.:24:23.

will not be happy until he is, what you make of the misconduct in public

:24:24.:24:29.

office route? I think if proceeding on the basis of only partial

:24:30.:24:32.

evidence, not giving the electorate or the media the whole story

:24:33.:24:41.

amounted to misconduct there is hardly a Prime Minister who would

:24:42.:24:45.

not be guilty of misconduct in public office. Not with the same

:24:46.:24:54.

scale of cost. Ben Bradshaw's statement, Tony Blair's statement

:24:55.:24:57.

that the world is safer because of what he did does not even past the

:24:58.:25:02.

straightfaced test, never mind any legal test. The world is in flames,

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fanatic extremism cascading everywhere, exploding everywhere

:25:09.:25:13.

even in our own streets. Iraq is in pieces, Syria is in pieces, Libya,

:25:14.:25:19.

Yemen, Saudi Arabia may soon be. The idea that the world is saved her now

:25:20.:25:27.

because of these jokers is utterly ridiculous. The cost of this

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misconduct is far greater than getting the marginal rate of income

:25:32.:25:39.

tax wrong or the DVL regulations. What are the foreign policy

:25:40.:25:42.

implications? Let me put a point I pity somebody else yesterday, we

:25:43.:25:46.

intervened in Iraq and occupied Iraq, it's a mess. We intervened in

:25:47.:25:55.

Libya but we did not occupy and it's a mess. We did not intervene or

:25:56.:26:00.

occupy Syria and it is a mess. What are the foreign policy implications?

:26:01.:26:08.

They were afraid to repeat the Iraqi experience. Which would have

:26:09.:26:20.

happened if they had occupied Libya. It's flying in the face of the

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reality, it almost leaves one speechless. Al-Qaeda in Iraq was a

:26:27.:26:32.

response to the invasion of Iraq, they moved into Syria and became

:26:33.:26:41.

Isis. You ask about foreign policy implications, I think they are about

:26:42.:26:45.

containment is often a better way of dealing with dangers in the world

:26:46.:26:52.

than trying to go in and destroy and remove people. In the memo, the

:26:53.:26:57.

whatever memo he does say we could go for containment. Incidentally the

:26:58.:27:06.

next word is not but as Ben Bradshaw wrongly stated, there are a series

:27:07.:27:12.

of caveats but not the word whatever and it isn't but. Where does foreign

:27:13.:27:21.

policy go from here? It is in a dreadful mess, the policy options we

:27:22.:27:31.

poor sued -- we poor sued -- per sued it's hard to see how we put

:27:32.:27:34.

these pieces back together. One thing ought to be a lesson, that

:27:35.:27:40.

supporting dictators like Saudi Arabia and Iraq before it, because

:27:41.:27:46.

the Iran war was fought with our weapons and our taxpayers gave

:27:47.:27:50.

export credit guarantees. British weapons? British weapons, German,

:27:51.:27:59.

American. Remember the super-gun. That was a con. What British

:28:00.:28:05.

weapons? British arms companies work heavily involved in supplying Saddam

:28:06.:28:11.

Hussein. I don't know which particular calibre of gun but they

:28:12.:28:15.

were definitely... When I was in Iraq all the weapons were Soviet. Of

:28:16.:28:21.

course the Soviet Union supplied a Lot. They denied, they blamed Iran

:28:22.:28:38.

464 months after it. -- for six full months after it. The moral authority

:28:39.:28:43.

of these people is gone, a period of ashamed silence would be in order.

:28:44.:28:47.

George Galloway, thank you for being with us.

:28:48.:28:50.

Yesterday, the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn apologised

:28:51.:28:51.

on behalf of the Labour Party for the disastrous decision to go

:28:52.:28:54.

to war but he did not attack Tony Blair personally.

:28:55.:28:57.

Politicians and political parties can only grow stronger

:28:58.:28:59.

by acknowledging when they get it wrong, and by facing

:29:00.:29:02.

So, I now apologise sincerely on behalf of my party

:29:03.:29:09.

for the disastrous decision to go to war in Iraq.

:29:10.:29:13.

Apologies are owed first to the people in Iraq.

:29:14.:29:16.

Hundreds of thousands of lives have been lost and the country

:29:17.:29:19.

is still living with the devastating consequences of the war,

:29:20.:29:22.

They have paid the greatest price for the most serious foreign policy

:29:23.:29:27.

Apologies are also owed to the families of those soldiers

:29:28.:29:35.

who died in Iraq or who returned injured and incapacitated.

:29:36.:29:37.

They did their duty but it was in a conflict they should

:29:38.:29:40.

We're joined now by the Shadow Foreign Secretary Emily Thornberry.

:29:41.:29:51.

Should Jeremy Corbyn have cited and condemned the actions of Tony Blair

:29:52.:29:57.

personally? No, I think that would be a mistake,

:29:58.:30:02.

the lessons from the Chilcot Report are much wider. We have to be very

:30:03.:30:08.

careful not to get ourselves into traditional scapegoats mode. If we

:30:09.:30:14.

focus on Tony Blair, and say he made all the mistakes, then we don't, the

:30:15.:30:21.

lessons are so much wider. And they apply today, two actions in the

:30:22.:30:27.

future. We cannot take a short cut. The Chilcot Report is very

:30:28.:30:33.

challenging for all of us, we have decisions to make on Libya coming

:30:34.:30:39.

up, on Syria. Those decisions should be informed by the report.

:30:40.:30:44.

But will the supporters of Jeremy Corbyn in the Labour Party, a lot of

:30:45.:30:47.

the membership will have been disappointed not to have heard his

:30:48.:30:51.

direct condemnation of Tony Blair. You can't blame one man, but he was

:30:52.:30:56.

the thread running through this whole report.

:30:57.:30:59.

The thread running through was that we went into war without thinking it

:31:00.:31:03.

through properly. The failure was a collective

:31:04.:31:08.

failure. My question was about the supporters being disappointed.

:31:09.:31:13.

I think they understand Jeremy is a thoughtful man. He does think these

:31:14.:31:16.

things through and he speaks the truth as he sees it.

:31:17.:31:22.

Does this go to the root causes of the divisions you are experiencing

:31:23.:31:27.

now in the Labour Party in terms of Jeremy Corbyn and his supporters,

:31:28.:31:31.

people like you, and the other MPs who would like to see Jeremy Corbyn

:31:32.:31:37.

stand down. Does this still divide the party?

:31:38.:31:40.

No, I don't think it does. When Jeremy apologised on behalf of the

:31:41.:31:45.

Labour Party yesterday, I think he did apologise on behalf of the vast

:31:46.:31:53.

majority. Not so Ben Bradshaw. Nor for Austin who shouted at him to

:31:54.:31:57.

sit down. We are a collision on the left,

:31:58.:32:01.

there will always be dissenting voices.

:32:02.:32:06.

He spoke on the vast McCutcheon on behalf of the vast majority, and

:32:07.:32:10.

generally. Does this still infect the Labour

:32:11.:32:16.

Party at times when it is imploding? We need to think carefully about

:32:17.:32:23.

intervention. One of the things we have did -- Heated debates.

:32:24.:32:27.

On domestic policy there is little disagreement in the Labour Party.

:32:28.:32:33.

There is a difference of interpretation in foreign policy,

:32:34.:32:37.

whether we should or should not intervene.

:32:38.:32:40.

You saw that in the vote on Syria. On domestic policy, we are much more

:32:41.:32:45.

united. The idea that it still doesn't still

:32:46.:32:50.

divide the party? It does.

:32:51.:32:57.

It is a fatal stain if one can have a fatal stain on the Labour

:32:58.:33:01.

moderates, their involvement with that part of Blairism for invading

:33:02.:33:08.

Iraq. They have as it were diminished themselves by that. Some

:33:09.:33:14.

of them like Ben Bradshaw are still sticking by it.

:33:15.:33:19.

I am interested in your view that you take collective responsibility.

:33:20.:33:22.

You don't talk about individuals. But he was Prime Minister, Tony

:33:23.:33:27.

Blair. Are you saying any Labour leader would have behaved in the way

:33:28.:33:30.

Tony Blair did? No, you know I'm not saying that.

:33:31.:33:37.

But it was a collective decision, and we need to look at the

:33:38.:33:42.

intelligence. Why did they get it so wrong? Why did it end with

:33:43.:33:46.

parliament being misled? Whether it was done on purpose or not doesn't

:33:47.:33:51.

matter. The fact is Parliament was misled.

:33:52.:33:55.

How did it happen? Why was evidenced not looked at more carefully?

:33:56.:34:00.

Why was there and not more collective decision-making?

:34:01.:34:07.

That is Sir John Chilcot. We don't have to go through that again.

:34:08.:34:13.

I am re-emphasising. Tony Blair was in charge but these

:34:14.:34:18.

things are collective decisions. Sir John Chilcott said these things

:34:19.:34:29.

must be collective. From a point of view of your own

:34:30.:34:33.

internal therapy I can see you don't want to point fingers. For the rest

:34:34.:34:36.

of the world we are still quite interested in whether Tony Blair

:34:37.:34:41.

made some very serious mistakes. He has apologised for making

:34:42.:34:46.

mistakes. Clearly he made mistakes but he was not the only one.

:34:47.:34:51.

Still the Labour Party is in stalemate, can it carry on for much

:34:52.:34:55.

longer? Yes, the Labour Party can carry on.

:34:56.:35:00.

We have enough people with good will to find a proper future. The country

:35:01.:35:07.

is crying out for a proper opposition.

:35:08.:35:10.

Can you carry on where there is a case of the bulk of the Parliament

:35:11.:35:13.

tree party still at odds with Jeremy Corbyn being leader?

:35:14.:35:22.

As I said last time I was on, we have two sort something out.

:35:23.:35:25.

Should there be a leadership challenge?

:35:26.:35:30.

We have a great advantage of having had quite senior people whose

:35:31.:35:37.

professional job is as negotiators, Len McCluskey...

:35:38.:35:44.

How did you read Len McCluskey's comments earlier about talks with

:35:45.:35:47.

Jeremy Currin. Owen Smith has said he is there will be a resolution,

:35:48.:35:53.

will it be that Jeremy Corbyn stand down?

:35:54.:35:56.

The best way of conducting negotiations is to do it behind

:35:57.:36:02.

closed doors in an of trust. Do you understand the resolution is

:36:03.:36:05.

he will go? The resolution is we need to talk

:36:06.:36:10.

together and find a collective decision.

:36:11.:36:12.

Is that what Len McCluskey is negotiating?

:36:13.:36:16.

I have not been directly involved, it is not for me to comment or

:36:17.:36:23.

second-guess. I know Len McCluskey is going in without a predetermined

:36:24.:36:28.

outcome. He wants to draw people together.

:36:29.:36:31.

Owen Smith says he is reassured, he is one of those who considered

:36:32.:36:36.

challenging Jeremy Corbyn, that is the outcome he wants. Should Angela

:36:37.:36:42.

Eagle challenge for the leadership and get this going?

:36:43.:36:47.

I think it is a good idea to allow Len McCluskey to have time to

:36:48.:36:51.

conduct discussions properly. We need to back off and be sensible and

:36:52.:36:56.

see where this takes us. You may be back on the programme

:36:57.:37:00.

before too long. We have a bunk bed in the corner for

:37:01.:37:03.

you! Saves you from going home.

:37:04.:37:06.

Now, Conservative MPs are voting in their party's leadership contest.

:37:07.:37:09.

Theresa May, Michael Gove and Andrea Leadsom.

:37:10.:37:14.

The candidate with the fewest votes after today's round

:37:15.:37:16.

The final two being put to a ballot of the entire Tory membership.

:37:17.:37:26.

This morning, Andrea Leadsom has been making a final pitch

:37:27.:37:29.

She spoke to us about criticisms that she had embellished her CV of

:37:30.:37:57.

her experience in the City before becoming an MP.

:37:58.:38:01.

None of my colleagues have misrepresented I was managing

:38:02.:38:03.

investments on behalf of pensioners and savers. I was not a fund

:38:04.:38:05.

manager. I have been very clear, I have

:38:06.:38:07.

worked in the markets, I have worked in banking, I have worked in funds

:38:08.:38:14.

management as head of corporate governance working closely

:38:15.:38:16.

with the chief investment officer. You don't regret how your previous

:38:17.:38:21.

experience has My CV as I have presented

:38:22.:38:23.

it is exactly accurate. My CV is accurate that

:38:24.:38:30.

I have set out with the We're now joined by the Conservative

:38:31.:38:39.

MPs Daniel Kawczynski And Matthew Parris doesn't

:38:40.:38:43.

have a vote any more but, if he did, We have all candidates covered.

:38:44.:39:01.

Heather, let us talk about that CV. Had she overstated her experience of

:39:02.:39:05.

her CV? It is incredible that here we are a

:39:06.:39:09.

week into everything and the dirty tricks have started. Of course not.

:39:10.:39:14.

She is Constable with her CV. I am comfortable she is the fresh start

:39:15.:39:17.

our party needs. Let us look at the claims. The Times

:39:18.:39:22.

reported Andrea Leadsom had no role in managing funds or advising

:39:23.:39:28.

clients during ten years from 19 at 9-2009. Is that the case or not?

:39:29.:39:36.

I have no idea, I wasn't in the City on that side, I was in the insurance

:39:37.:39:42.

side. She has answered it clearly. You believe her and the experience

:39:43.:39:47.

she put down on that CV is true. I am appalled the dirty tricks have

:39:48.:39:51.

started. Who is responsible? You will have to

:39:52.:39:55.

ask another person. Is that coming from the Michael Gove

:39:56.:40:00.

camp? All I am interested in is who will

:40:01.:40:04.

be in the final Dawlat. It is important it should be Michael Gove

:40:05.:40:09.

and Theresa May. I have been supporting Michael Gove because of

:40:10.:40:13.

the leadership he showed over Brexit but I am comfortable with either as

:40:14.:40:18.

our next Prime Minister. And the responsibility for dirty

:40:19.:40:21.

tricks, are you as appalled about this?

:40:22.:40:26.

The contest could have been done in a better way, with maybe fewer

:40:27.:40:31.

personal attacks and dirty tricks, of course. Unfortunately, when there

:40:32.:40:40.

is a lot at stake, of course, tempers will fray. People are very

:40:41.:40:44.

emotional. We are doing a very important thing, selecting the next

:40:45.:40:47.

Prime Minister. This isn't student politics, this is

:40:48.:40:53.

incredibly important. Also, it is incredibly important,

:40:54.:40:58.

and trust is important, so is accuracy in terms of personal

:40:59.:41:00.

details. To return to the CV again, Andrea

:41:01.:41:05.

Leadsom said she was a managing director at her brother in law's

:41:06.:41:10.

investment fund. When you look at companies house documents, she is

:41:11.:41:14.

referred to as marketing director. Is it important she is accurate? Her

:41:15.:41:21.

spokesman said they updated the CV to prevent any further

:41:22.:41:27.

misapprehension. Misapprehension or misconstruing.

:41:28.:41:30.

That is done. The team have explained what happened.

:41:31.:41:34.

I am comfortable with that. We need to talk about the policies and why

:41:35.:41:38.

Andrea will be the fresh start our country needs.

:41:39.:41:43.

People don't know who she is. She is and is tested.

:41:44.:41:51.

Her speech was superb. -- She is not tested.

:41:52.:41:54.

It is about policy which is why the speech this morning was important. I

:41:55.:41:58.

hope the BBC will show all of that speech.

:41:59.:42:01.

In terms of tempers running high, emotions out there in the Tory

:42:02.:42:06.

party, is that why Nick Boles sent a text message to fellow MPs

:42:07.:42:10.

suggesting they vote tactically to stop Andrea Leadsom being in the

:42:11.:42:14.

final Dawlat? That is regrettable and he has

:42:15.:42:19.

issued an apology for that. He has stated Michael Gove was not aware of

:42:20.:42:25.

that initiative? I am glad he has apologised, that was inappropriate.

:42:26.:42:29.

Is there something frightening about Andrea Leadsom as he says?

:42:30.:42:35.

An important point. I would like to tell you there are members of my

:42:36.:42:40.

association in Shrewsbury who have approached me, senior members, who

:42:41.:42:45.

have genuine concerns about Andrea Leadsom becoming Prime Minister

:42:46.:42:49.

because of the lack of experience. Highly competent but only an MP for

:42:50.:42:55.

six years. She has never held a senior position in Cabinet.

:42:56.:42:59.

She has more experience than David Cameron when he became Leader of the

:43:00.:43:03.

Opposition. What is her experience? Two years as

:43:04.:43:10.

a minister, she has been at the dispatch box goodness knows how many

:43:11.:43:13.

times. David Cameron going the Leader of

:43:14.:43:18.

the Opposition, as opposed to Prime Minister, does that make a

:43:19.:43:21.

difference? Absolutely not. She is a lead -- She

:43:22.:43:27.

is a lady of steel. Michael Gove is running scared.

:43:28.:43:32.

We are not running scared. We want to reflect what our own members are

:43:33.:43:35.

saying to us. I spent last week in my constituency

:43:36.:43:40.

of Shrewsbury listening to my executive Council and members. They

:43:41.:43:46.

want two alternatives to be put to them from different perspectives but

:43:47.:43:51.

they want experience. By members have said to me they are concerned

:43:52.:43:54.

that this lady, very competent though she is, does not have the

:43:55.:43:59.

experience of running major Government departments, to be

:44:00.:44:03.

catapulted into becoming our Prime Minister.

:44:04.:44:07.

I hope this process ends with her getting a very senior position.

:44:08.:44:10.

What would you like to see in a Michael Gove Government?

:44:11.:44:15.

That is something for him to decide if he becomes Prime Minister. She is

:44:16.:44:19.

a raw talent, she ought to be utilised. She is not yet ready to be

:44:20.:44:25.

Prime Minister. Isn't that patronising? I wonder

:44:26.:44:28.

whether the good old boys are having a go.

:44:29.:44:31.

She is not part of the metropolitan elite, but a Midlands MP. How

:44:32.:44:36.

refreshing would that be, to lead the country?

:44:37.:44:42.

You think it is student politics, why?

:44:43.:44:45.

Such is the atmosphere of intrigue and mistrust, I even begin to wonder

:44:46.:44:51.

whether Nick Boles and his text was a loose cannon straying off brief,

:44:52.:44:55.

or whether it is one of those, because it was only Nick Boles, it

:44:56.:45:00.

can be denied by the Michael Gove camp.

:45:01.:45:04.

Can you imagine Michael Gove being involved?

:45:05.:45:07.

He might have guessed it would be helpful and was careful not to ask

:45:08.:45:10.

for permission. Does it fit with the Machiavellian

:45:11.:45:13.

view of Michael Gove? My experience of Michael Gove was

:45:14.:45:25.

when he was Chief Whip and I think he's one of the most dependable and

:45:26.:45:28.

articulate politicians I have come across. That is not what I asked.

:45:29.:45:35.

The media have tried to perceive him, show him as... We did not make

:45:36.:45:42.

up that he stabbed Boris Johnson... I have heard two versions of this

:45:43.:45:45.

story and only those in that dispute will know the truth. The media loves

:45:46.:45:50.

disputes of this nature. My own experience is he is dependable and

:45:51.:45:55.

trustworthy. Matthew Parris, Theresa May riding high out in front, what

:45:56.:45:59.

do we know of her outside the Home Office? Not very much, she has stuck

:46:00.:46:06.

to her brief and colleagues say she does not open intervene in areas of

:46:07.:46:10.

government outside of the Home Office so we don't know much. We

:46:11.:46:14.

know she is what you might call a fairly progressive conservative who

:46:15.:46:17.

thinks the party needs to appeal more broadly. Remarks about the

:46:18.:46:24.

nastier party have been endlessly... They have dogged her for years. What

:46:25.:46:29.

about her stance on the future and security of EU foreign nationals

:46:30.:46:34.

living here at the moment? Has it been a mistake? I think it's been

:46:35.:46:40.

phrased mistakenly, I think what she should have said was that it was her

:46:41.:46:44.

fervent wish and she was pretty confident she could achieve it, that

:46:45.:46:49.

foreign nationals here would be able to stay but this must be a matter

:46:50.:46:53.

for negotiation when we have our own nationals on the continent to thank.

:46:54.:46:58.

That would've been a better way of putting it. It has been condemned by

:46:59.:47:03.

the others saying they shouldn't be bargaining chips. Everything is a

:47:04.:47:09.

bargaining chip in politics. We have just been interviewing the Foreign

:47:10.:47:13.

Secretary and it's right that the government has too privatised

:47:14.:47:16.

British citizens living in the EU but there are 800,000 Polish people

:47:17.:47:20.

here, hard-working and dedicated people and they need to have the

:47:21.:47:24.

reassurance they will be allowed to stay in the UK as soon as is of

:47:25.:47:33.

thank you to all of you. A senior Labour MP said the move against

:47:34.:47:37.

Jeremy Corbyn is finished according to reports. After a lengthy

:47:38.:47:41.

discussions between Tom Watson and union officials failed to solve the

:47:42.:47:42.

impasse. Now, the Government was defeated

:47:43.:47:46.

last night after an Opposition debate in the Commons calling

:47:47.:47:49.

for them to commit to giving EU nationals currently living

:47:50.:47:51.

in the UK the right to remain Conservative MPs were whipped

:47:52.:47:54.

to abstain on the vote. But the Government tried to make

:47:55.:48:04.

clear that they had no intention to some of the exchanges

:48:05.:48:07.

during that debate. Let me start by inviting the House

:48:08.:48:12.

to join me in sending a very clear message to the EU nationals

:48:13.:48:16.

living in the UK that You are truly valued

:48:17.:48:21.

members of our society, I think it is absolutely right

:48:22.:48:26.

to issue the strongest possible reassurance to EU nationals in this

:48:27.:48:36.

country, not just for moral or humanitarian reasons, but for very

:48:37.:48:41.

sound economic reasons as well. They are welcome,

:48:42.:48:45.

they are necessary, they are a vital part of our society

:48:46.:48:47.

and I would be passionately We fully expect the legal

:48:48.:48:50.

status of EU nationals living in the UK and that of UK

:48:51.:48:56.

nationals of EU member states will Given that both the UK

:48:57.:49:00.

and the EU want to maintain a close relationship,

:49:01.:49:06.

we are confident that we will work together and that the EU and British

:49:07.:49:09.

citizens will be protected through Joined by Nick Ross and, and

:49:10.:49:28.

emigration lawyer, welcome to the programme -- an immigration lawyer.

:49:29.:49:31.

If Parliament votes to give everybody the right to remain here

:49:32.:49:35.

who is already here and in EU national isn't that it, it is done?

:49:36.:49:42.

It should be, there will be more complicated issues about

:49:43.:49:44.

transitional arrangements once the UK leads the EU, about people who

:49:45.:49:50.

are here or just arriving. There will be complexities around that. If

:49:51.:49:54.

there is a decision to allow all those EU nationals already here from

:49:55.:49:58.

a certain date to stay then that's the end of the story because when we

:49:59.:50:03.

leave the EU, EU rights cease and it's just a matter of national law.

:50:04.:50:10.

Do we have any idea what the rates of EU nationals would be as

:50:11.:50:16.

currently constituted if we were leaving? We know what the rates are

:50:17.:50:19.

if we are in the EU, they have the same rights as we have effectively,

:50:20.:50:25.

to be here, what happens if we leave? It depends on what the

:50:26.:50:29.

statisticians now under EU law and how that's recognised in British

:50:30.:50:35.

law. Typically, as James Brokenshire said yesterday, in EU national who

:50:36.:50:39.

has been here for five years can in principle apply for Premarin

:50:40.:50:42.

residence and get confirmation, that is in EU law status but it's very

:50:43.:50:47.

similar to the UK status of indefinite leave to remain which you

:50:48.:50:50.

would get here if you are living here for five years. It also has

:50:51.:50:55.

legal implications that are very similar to indefinite leave to

:50:56.:50:59.

remain in terms of access to British nationality, access to benefits and

:51:00.:51:03.

other things. If individuals have acquired that status and can show

:51:04.:51:10.

that they have obtained it over five years, they would carry that status

:51:11.:51:14.

board and I am sure it would be respected beyond the UK leaving the

:51:15.:51:20.

EU. Certain protections, no one is ever quite sure how strong they are,

:51:21.:51:24.

the Vienna Convention has been called into this argument but also

:51:25.:51:29.

the EC HR and the UN are clear on being opposed to collective

:51:30.:51:35.

expulsion so you can just kick a whole category of people out?

:51:36.:51:43.

Absolutely, I think it's unthinkable to think we would get to that stage,

:51:44.:51:48.

it just wouldn't happen. But Joe Reitz, it is not allowed under

:51:49.:51:53.

international law, if there was collective expulsion or even

:51:54.:51:55.

individual expulsion, based on whether you meant certain

:51:56.:51:59.

requirements it would be so complicated to try and unravel what

:52:00.:52:02.

are the right people have, they may own property, they may have allsorts

:52:03.:52:09.

of rights to property under international law and the dreaded

:52:10.:52:13.

word, human rights that you would accrue over a period of time would

:52:14.:52:17.

complicate any sort of attempt to try and send you home. I think it's

:52:18.:52:21.

unthinkable we would get to this stage where there would be any sort

:52:22.:52:27.

of individual deprecation or mass deportation. It would seem to me

:52:28.:52:32.

there is an overwhelming majority in the House of Commons to give those

:52:33.:52:35.

already here continuing rights to be here on the same basis. Yes and to

:52:36.:52:40.

that extent this is a little bit of a storm in a teacup. I can't imagine

:52:41.:52:46.

Parliament ever voting to expel EU nationals who are here but there is

:52:47.:52:50.

a lot to discuss, Theresa May is right about that. The axis of 1

:52:51.:52:54.

million or so British people in Spain to the Spanish health system,

:52:55.:53:00.

these things have to be negotiated. We will leave it there, thank you

:53:01.:53:01.

for being with us. Now, international events,

:53:02.:53:05.

political ideology, personal animosity,

:53:06.:53:07.

all these can change I never touch the stuff, of course,

:53:08.:53:08.

but I'm told plenty of alcohol is consumed here at Westminster

:53:09.:53:17.

and it's a help to some politicians # Hey, bartender,

:53:18.:53:20.

give that man a drink! I was enjoying a drink in the Red

:53:21.:53:40.

Lion when Tony Blair phoned me Obviously, I couldn't speak

:53:41.:53:55.

to the Prime Minister in a pub. Even now, I can't say

:53:56.:53:59.

what he said to me. That is the sweet taste of remaining

:54:00.:54:12.

in the European Union. Mr Joyce had been drinking,

:54:13.:54:20.

and look possessed and completely out of it,

:54:21.:54:22.

according to one witness. After shouting, there are too

:54:23.:54:25.

many Tories in this bar. The former Labour MP told police

:54:26.:54:28.

officers that he nutted a guy. Not everyone who drinks

:54:29.:54:30.

get involved in fights. I don't gossip about

:54:31.:54:32.

people over lunch. I don't go drinking

:54:33.:54:48.

in Parliament's bars. And we're joined now

:54:49.:55:06.

by the political correspondent Ben Wright who has just written

:55:07.:55:09.

a book about politics and drink for which, I am told,

:55:10.:55:12.

he conducted extensive research! He has only just got out of

:55:13.:55:23.

hospital! Are lots of this you see politicians drinking pints of beer,

:55:24.:55:28.

it's a photo opportunity, to show I am a man or woman of the people,

:55:29.:55:32.

Harold Wilson used to do it in public and he had a pipe, the minute

:55:33.:55:37.

he got into his private quarters out came the cognac and the cigar. Yes,

:55:38.:55:45.

politicians love being pictured with pints because it sends a signal that

:55:46.:55:49.

they are like them, they share their vices. They have been doing it for

:55:50.:55:54.

as long as we have had politicians, go back to Hallgarth in Georgian

:55:55.:55:57.

England, he will be depicting elections awash with booze. You

:55:58.:56:03.

couldn't bribe voters by buying the drinks back then, now they just go

:56:04.:56:07.

behind the bar, pull pint and hold it to the camera. Nigel Farage is

:56:08.:56:12.

not putting it on. He is also seen drinking wine at times which the

:56:13.:56:19.

other politicians would rather not. It is said the drinking culture, and

:56:20.:56:24.

still is one in parliament, but it's not as bad as it was is that right?

:56:25.:56:30.

The book I have written is largely a story of drinking decline certainly

:56:31.:56:36.

amongst senior ministers, Prime Minister's and the House of Commons

:56:37.:56:39.

and the bars are not as packed as you might remember. 20 or 30 years

:56:40.:56:44.

ago the smoking room, the strangers bar where a rant, and they are

:56:45.:56:48.

tribal as well, strangers rammed full of Labour MPs. Now it feels

:56:49.:56:53.

like that on a Thursday night because of the change in hours and

:56:54.:56:58.

an awareness of the damage that drink does and the fact that MPs are

:56:59.:57:02.

working much harder it means they are not renting might be used to. I

:57:03.:57:06.

was on the terrace for research purposes a couple of days ago one

:57:07.:57:13.

evening and it was rammed. Drink fuelled gossip, everyone talking

:57:14.:57:15.

about the labour and Tory leadership races. A conveyor belt of drinks

:57:16.:57:23.

coming from the bar. Does politics need it, does it need that in order

:57:24.:57:29.

for the wheels of political chat and debate and discussion to continue? I

:57:30.:57:34.

think it has always been and remains a very important ingredient in the

:57:35.:57:40.

way politics works. Among MPs on the bar of an evening but also for a

:57:41.:57:43.

Prime Minister relaxing at the end of the day. Margaret Thatcher having

:57:44.:57:49.

a glass of bells with his friends and advisers, it's the same for

:57:50.:57:54.

American presidents. FDR had Martini hour every evening for an hour on

:57:55.:57:59.

the oval office desk. It's important to them. It can go too far when I

:58:00.:58:05.

was in the House of Commons I took Sheila Faith, the MP for the

:58:06.:58:10.

adjoining constituency to mine, I took her into the Kremlin as we used

:58:11.:58:14.

to call it, she was teetotal and hadn't been in and and want to go in

:58:15.:58:18.

on her own. So we went in and she had a lemonade and a Labour MP whose

:58:19.:58:22.

name I will not die vulture got down onto the floor and pretended to be a

:58:23.:58:28.

dog -- whose name I will not die vulture. He started barking and

:58:29.:58:34.

biting her ankles until she beat a hasty... I'm not surprised! Don't

:58:35.:58:42.

miss out on that book. The 1pm news about to start on BBC One, and have

:58:43.:58:46.

now because we are off a little earlier. I will be back.

:58:47.:58:51.

And I will be back tonight for This Week with Michael Portillo.

:58:52.:58:54.

David Lammy, Isabel Hardman, Omid Djalili, Douglas Murray,

:58:55.:58:56.

Depending on the football timings, we should be on around

:58:57.:59:00.

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn assess fallout from the Chilcot report. Also on the programme: the next stage of the Conservative Party leadership contest and Jeremy Corbyn's future as Labour Party leader. Plus raising a glass to booze in politics.


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