08/07/2016 Daily Politics


08/07/2016

Andrew Neil is joined by commentator Miranda Green to discuss the Conservative leadership race, Labour's future and the launch of a newspaper called The New European.


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Transcript


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The next Conservative leader will either be

:00:36.:00:42.

Theresa May or Andrea Leadsom, and one of them will be in 10

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Downing Street by early September at the latest.

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As the contest moves from Westminster to the party's

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members, will May's experience win out, or can Leave campaigner Leadsom

:01:00.:01:02.

Speaking of coups, Labour's seems to be on hold at the moment.

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But, with 100,000 new members joining since the Brexit vote,

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the party's internal battle is far from over.

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Remain voters still feeling a bit tearful can take comfort

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from a new paper being launched this morning, just for them,

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What will MEPs miss about their monthly jaunts

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to the European Parliament in Strasbourg?

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And with us for the first half of the programme today,

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She only left me if you moments ago on BBC One!

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I have been sleeping under the table!

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She writes for the FT and this week she's been writing

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about whether it's OK to embellish your CV.

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So, when she tells you she used to be Lib Dem leader and she's

:02:07.:02:10.

about to take over as presenter of Top Gear, you'll

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First today, there's one big story across the front pages this

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morning and that's the news that the next Conservative leader

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and Prime Minister will be either Home Secretary Theresa May

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or the Energy Minister Andrea Leadsom.

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Much has been made of the fact that Britain is to have a female

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PM for the first time since Margaret Thatcher left

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Only the second in our long Parliamentary history.

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And the comparisons with Maggie are flowing thick and fast, either

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favourably or unfavourably depending on your political persuasion.

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Let's have a listen to both women speaking after they were chosen

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as the final two candidates in a ballot of Conservative MPs.

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We need proven leadership to negotiate the best deal

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for leaving the European Union, to unite our party and our country,

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and to make Britain a country that works not for the privileged few

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Obviously very exciting, and the great news is

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we have an all-female short list with no positive

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discrimination or anything, isn't that fantastic?

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So, we have a female Scottish First Minister, a female leader of the

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Scottish Tories, if female leader of Scottish Labour, a German female

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Chancellor, about to have a second British Prime Minister, and may be

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an American female president. In the 21st century, we are moving

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to a situation where the fact that someone is female is moving down the

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agenda? It is either that, or time to

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celebrate a new dawn of a female age and female leadership being

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recognised as having the same potential as male. When you look at

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Scottish politics, it has been really significant all but one of

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the party leaders in Scotland has been female for a while. Someone

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like Ruth Davidson is an absolute star, as is Nicola Sturgeon.

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It is cause to celebrate. The problem that can happen on the left

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is that when you get women like Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom

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rising to the very top, because they do not fit their idea of a

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conventional feminist, they are dismissed as not quite right.

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You can have a problem where the woman to hand is not quite woman

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enough, which is hopeless. It should be celebrated. When Barack

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Obama was about to win, some of the black activists said he is not

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enough! You have to be careful. Why is it that the Conservatives

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have produced a female short list but they are against female short

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lists. And the Labour Party which is in favour and the Lib Dems, neither

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have been anywhere near having a female leader.

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It is true, a year ago, the Labour Party had really good women on the

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list potentially for the leadership, deputy leadership and candidate for

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London mayor. And then it turned out to be all-male when the vote came

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in. The left has a problem. People get slightly twisted with the

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identity politics, to do with categorising people all the time

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when the right is relaxed about individualism.

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Having said that, there aren't enough women in politics generally

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and things must be changed structurally to allow women in, this

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is still important. In 1975, it was a huge issue that

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Margaret Thatcher would become leader of the Conservative Party. It

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is not a huge issue now that either to May or Andrea Leadsom will be

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leader, that is a change in attitude.

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So, now we know the final two in the race to be the next leader

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of the Conservative Party and, consequently, the next

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She brings her experience as one of the longest home secretaries to the

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job. While she insists Brexit is Brexit, she was on the remain

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campsite in the referendum which could count against her. Andrea

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Leadsom is the new face. As Energy Minister, she has not sat in the

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Cabinet, and has been an MP since only 2010. A prominent role in the

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Leave campaign puts on the same side as many conservative members. Her

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supporters claim she is a fresh face. Andrea Leadsom was also

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Grammar School educated. She has a degree in political science from

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Warwick University. She had a career in finance, experience which makes

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up for her lack of time in Government, according to her

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supporters. Yesterday, she was forced to defend just how good those

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credentials. Now it is down to local party members. Ben Gatsby is chair

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of the Thurrock Conservative Association. And Michael are still

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joins us from Plymouth as chair of the South West Devon Conservative

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Association. Why is Theresa May your candidate?

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It comes down to experience. As a country, this will be an interesting

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couple of years. It is no time for a novice. Theresa May has been Home

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Secretary, received briefings which would keep me up at night, she knows

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what she is doing. Andrea is not tested.

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Michael, no time for a novice? First of all, I am very delighted we

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have two ladies in the contest. I have been reading about her and

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she is passionate about the job. She has some experience and what she

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sees in her role could be very good said getting part of the EU. I don't

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think we should -- I think we should wait for the months ahead and let

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the membership decide in good time. Andrea Leadsom.

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She is new, even to her supporters, clearly. Is it important the next

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Prime Minister was a Leave campaigner?

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Yes, it is for me. Because I was vote lead, I work very hard as did

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others. And the result was the clear result that we should now get ahead

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and put that into motion. What do you say to that?

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Because it looks like most Conservative Party members voted to

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leave. And, for them, Mrs Mabel is on the wrong side of the argument,

:10:08.:10:10.

why pick someone like that as your next leader?

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As Michael said, the result is the result. Teresa has been cleared

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Brexit means Brexit. There wasn't any reason to be worried about that.

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There is a country still to be governed.

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We still have schools, hospitals, transport, all the other things that

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take up an entire cabinet minister's time.

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Will people who voted to leave not fear she is half-hearted and may not

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try to drive a hard enough bargain and may settle for a Norwegian or a

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Swiss halfway house? One of the problems with the Leave

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campaign is no one set out what Brexit should look like.

:10:51.:10:54.

Teresa will have to think hard. She will need to set out what she

:10:55.:10:58.

thinks that should look like in the coming months.

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When she says Brexit means Brexit, that is clear.

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But there are very many varieties of Brexit.

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Michael, there is a country to govern. And we don't know much about

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Andrea Leadsom's position on the non-EU issues. Don't we need to find

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out and maybe doesn't she need to seek a mandate from the country if

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she wins? No, I wouldn't think we need a

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general election. We had a general election, this Conservatives had a

:11:43.:11:49.

good majority. I think we need to go ahead and Andrea will put her ideas

:11:50.:11:58.

forward in the ensuing months. And I think she hasn't got the experience

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of her counterpart but I think she will come out and give clear

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information on how she is going to deal with as leaving the EU and

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getting a good deal. What are her chances? She is coming

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from behind, not the favourite, what are her chances. I think she has a

:12:22.:12:30.

very good chance of winning. And the support of me and many of my

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friends, some not actually in the Conservative Party.

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But they won't have the vote. No, but it is nice to hear that

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other people, some Ukip friends that I have who are in touch with me to

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say that they, that she would be their choice.

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Thanks you very much for joining us. James cleverly, what

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reassurances does Theresa May have to give that she will not be looking

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for a Brexit - light solution. I think she has given all the

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reassurances that I need. I campaign very hard for Brexit, so did Chris

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Grayling, Priti Patel and Liam Fox. All of us take her experience as her

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bond. When she says she will campaign for a proper Brexit that

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works for Britain, that is what she will deliver.

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Not a Norwegian halfway house? She has not mention that, no one in her

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team has mentioned that. There will be a British model.

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Because, before the Norwegians negotiated their position, there was

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no model on the shelf to be deployed.

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We will make a Brexit that works for Britain, I am confident Theresa May

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will deliver that. Given her failed record on

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immigration, she cannot be seen to give anything on the free movement.

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One of the reasons I campaigned so hard for Brexit is I was very

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conscious Theresa May and James Brokenshire I were doing sterling

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work but were limited in their ability to deliver because of the

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constraints put on us by our membership of the EU.

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They set a target of 100,000 net migration. Even if no one had come

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from the EU, they wouldn't have hit that target, net moderation from

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non-EU was 180 8000. The bits of immigration they did control they

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could not even get that down to the target.

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The thing I identified with regard to our membership of the EU, it

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doesn't matter how fair your immigration policy is, you can't

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deploy a policy whilst being members of the EU.

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Why? We have total control for outside the EU. If Theresa May could

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not control that, why, when we have no EU controls on that, why would we

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trust has good control immigration when we are outside the EU?

:15:11.:15:17.

I completely trust her to control immigration. There still hospitals

:15:18.:15:23.

to be run, transport to be run, policing to be run. It is important

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we discuss Brexit but it is also important we recognise we need a

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leader who can deal with all the other elements of government that

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still need to be delivered. What is her policy on Heathrow and Gatwick

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runway is? I don't have the inside track of all the policies. We don't

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know? Andrea and to Reza will be touring the country setting out

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their agenda for government. -- Theresa May. I won't try and... You

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said there is a country to govern. We don't know. It may also be true

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of Andrea Leadsom, we don't know what Theresa May stands for outside

:16:06.:16:09.

the six years she has been in the Home Office? When she came to the

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1922... She made an explicit statement on HS2. I don't want to be

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drawn on all her policy announcements because she will want

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to announce those as part of her campaign to become the next Prime

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Minister in the next few months. Has it not been to her detriment that

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she is prepared to make EU nationals already living in this country a

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bargaining chip? When I was in business I did a lot of negotiating.

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One of the first rules of negotiating, you don't give away

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negotiating points. I know that, how would you, why would you make people

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living in this country EU nationals, who's been here, law-abiding

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citizens, working away, why would you make them bargaining chips? She

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was asked a question and she answered it. We don't have any

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assurances from the EU that UK nationals... Why will that matter?

:17:09.:17:12.

In a negotiation you need to keep as many options open as possible. Every

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EU national watching this programme today should be uncertain about

:17:20.:17:22.

their future, because you want to make them part of the negotiation

:17:23.:17:28.

process? No, you brought it up, I didn't bring it up. Excuse me,

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Theresa May brought up. She didn't, she was asked a direct question and

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she said as a general point of principle she wasn't going to start

:17:38.:17:41.

renegotiating with the media before she even steps into the room with

:17:42.:17:45.

the European Parliament. She said the position of the EU nationals

:17:46.:17:51.

would be part of the negotiations. The point I made in a previous

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programme, even the most radical of leaders said EU nationals should not

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worry, that their position will be protected when we leave the EU. Why

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can Theresa May not say that? Because she has said as a general

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principle she is not going to stop renegotiating with the media before

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she is even in the job. You could go through one issue after another... I

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am sticking with this issue. Many people think the position of EU

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nationals should be placed above the negotiations, should not be part of

:18:24.:18:27.

the negotiations. If you want to stay here, you are entitled to do

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so. Even Nigel Farage says that is the case. No one that I campaigned

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with on the Leave campaign or spoke to on the Remain campaign wants to

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see EU nationals excluded from the UK. But Theresa made a clear point

:18:45.:18:49.

of principle, she's not going to pre-negotiate point by point in the

:18:50.:18:53.

lead up to hopefully her becoming the next Prime Minister. You could

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pick one issue after another and keep asking her and you will get the

:18:57.:19:00.

same answer, that she is not going to take anything off the table. The

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3 million EU nationals this is an important issue and you are putting

:19:05.:19:08.

their future on the table. These are your words.

:19:09.:19:12.

Would you bet on the outside on this does Theresa May have it? The

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Conservative Party's great genius has always been to see itself as the

:19:17.:19:21.

natural party of government and guard that against ideological

:19:22.:19:25.

forays. I think the problem for the party is if you listen to the

:19:26.:19:29.

gentleman from the south-west, with saying it was an encouraging sign

:19:30.:19:33.

Andrea Leadsom appealed to his Ukip friends, I wouldn't see that as an

:19:34.:19:38.

encouraging sign, I would be worried about a reverse takeover of the

:19:39.:19:43.

Conservative Party by Ukip and disenfranchising those centre-right

:19:44.:19:46.

people for who were fans of David Cameron and won him the general

:19:47.:19:51.

election. I think it is a dangerous maim and for the Tories, because if

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they do Jeremy Corbyn on the Tories, they will be captured by their

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extreme wings. Is that your biggest risk? The Conservative Party is not

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the Labour Party. We have a very pragmatic set of associate members.

:20:06.:20:08.

I hear what you are saying but Andrea Leadsom is not Jeremy Corbyn.

:20:09.:20:14.

Our members are not Momentum. We are as sensible, pragmatic and middle

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ground party and that is where we will remain. We will leave it there,

:20:20.:20:23.

thank you. Conservative Party members will choose a new leader but

:20:24.:20:27.

will Labour Party members get to do the same before long?

:20:28.:20:30.

Well, there's still a stalemate between leader Jeremy Corbyn

:20:31.:20:32.

and his many critics among MPs, and we don't know yet

:20:33.:20:35.

whether there will be a leadership challenge.

:20:36.:20:40.

But, if there is, then it appears that many people are joining

:20:41.:20:42.

the party in an effort to influence the result.

:20:43.:20:45.

Let's just take a look at the figures.

:20:46.:20:48.

The party's highest membership figure in recent decades was 405,000

:20:49.:20:51.

in 1997 when Tony Blair became Prime Minister.

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Since then, it's been falling, and under Ed Miliband in 2014

:20:58.:21:03.

But the membership practically doubled to more than 370,000

:21:04.:21:12.

after last summer's leadership election, in part because of a rule

:21:13.:21:15.

change meant people could sign up for ?3.

:21:16.:21:20.

This morning, Jeremy Corbyn writes in the Guardian that,

:21:21.:21:22.

since the EU referendum, more than 100,000 have joined,

:21:23.:21:25.

taking the total number to just over 500,000.

:21:26.:21:34.

Well, let's talk now to Tom Baldwin, who was an adviser to Ed Miliband

:21:35.:21:37.

and Adam Klug who is a national organiser for Momentum.

:21:38.:21:40.

Which has been part of Jeremy Corbyn's John McDonnell appeal to

:21:41.:21:49.

the grassroots. Is there going to be a challenge? I think there will be,

:21:50.:21:53.

at the beginning of next week. Their will. Is it assumed on that

:21:54.:21:56.

challenge you would assume among Labour MPs that Jeremy Corbyn loses

:21:57.:22:02.

that challenge? That he won't get a majority, and it will go to the

:22:03.:22:06.

country? I think it would be much better if Jeremy Corbyn did the

:22:07.:22:10.

decent thing and left now with some dignity intact. If it comes to a

:22:11.:22:13.

challenge, they will have to do this. In those circumstances, what

:22:14.:22:19.

matters now is the mainstream start signing people up with the same

:22:20.:22:22.

skill and success as Momentum have been doing. A bit late? I don't

:22:23.:22:29.

think so, the figures Jeremy Corbyn was talking about, 100,000 new

:22:30.:22:34.

members, it has been 113,000. There has been some sampling done. It is a

:22:35.:22:38.

narrow majority for Jeremy Corbyn, not overwhelming and not as big as

:22:39.:22:44.

momentum believes or would like. Do you buy that? All the early

:22:45.:22:47.

indications were those who are signing up to joint were not 100%

:22:48.:22:54.

Jeremy Corbyn fans but tended to the left of the Labour Party? That is my

:22:55.:23:00.

understanding. From the first 13,000 people who joined, 60% put on their

:23:01.:23:05.

membership forms as they joined that they were joining to support Jeremy

:23:06.:23:11.

Corbyn. That was only those who wrote in that box but you didn't

:23:12.:23:15.

have to write in that box. Those who did tended towards Jeremy Corbyn?

:23:16.:23:23.

60% wrote in that box. That is because Momentum have been

:23:24.:23:25.

mobilising. The mainstream currently have been fighting this is a

:23:26.:23:30.

parliamentary battle. I think it is imperative that mainstream Labour

:23:31.:23:33.

Party now go out and show the mainstream are many and the far left

:23:34.:23:38.

off you. That is getting people to sign up hundreds of mainstream

:23:39.:23:45.

people who want a firm opposition. What is your equipment question what

:23:46.:23:51.

saving Labour. There are many millions of people who after this

:23:52.:23:55.

referendum want an effective opposition, want to do something to

:23:56.:23:59.

save our country and save our democracy. I think that energy, that

:24:00.:24:05.

opportunity now needs to be harnessed, not just to save the

:24:06.:24:09.

Labour Party but to save our democracy. Do you think it will be

:24:10.:24:13.

harder this time? Or do you think you still have a substantial

:24:14.:24:17.

majority for Mr Corbyn among the rank and file? I agree that this is

:24:18.:24:23.

a huge opportunity, with 500,000 members the Labour Party is now the

:24:24.:24:28.

biggest membership left of centre party in Europe. I think it is a

:24:29.:24:31.

tremendous opportunity to move forward and engage with voters and

:24:32.:24:36.

engage with members. Members of the people who, on a daily basis, are

:24:37.:24:40.

interacting with voters. It is an opportunity to be knocking on

:24:41.:24:44.

people's doors, canvassing and listening to people. What I said

:24:45.:24:47.

was, do you think among the membership it will be harder or

:24:48.:24:52.

easier to re-elect Mr Corbyn? If there is a challenge I am confident

:24:53.:24:57.

Jeremy will be re-elected. And if he is, where does that leave the

:24:58.:25:00.

Parliamentary Labour Party? In a very difficult position. And our

:25:01.:25:06.

party and our democracy. Jeremy Corbyn cannot be leader of the

:25:07.:25:10.

Labour Party. For out of five have expressed no confidence in him.

:25:11.:25:15.

Every MEP, ex-leader, an increasing number of members. This is

:25:16.:25:23.

unsustainable. Not if he wins? If he wins among the grassroots he has

:25:24.:25:29.

won. Isn't it the truth that this situation... That the grassroots of

:25:30.:25:33.

the Labour Party needs a new parliamentary party, and the

:25:34.:25:36.

Parliamentary party needs a new grassroots? Maybe you will end up

:25:37.:25:41.

going your separate ways? I think there is too much defeatism among

:25:42.:25:45.

Labour MPs who think you can't beat momentum on the ground. I believe

:25:46.:25:49.

there is energy out there. I believe there is an opportunity and if a

:25:50.:25:53.

large number of people who have joined the Labour Party specifically

:25:54.:25:56.

to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn in the last few weeks, that is even before

:25:57.:26:00.

the mainstream is mobilised. We have to get on with mobilising. The

:26:01.:26:05.

contrast with the Conservative Party, 150,000 very weird people

:26:06.:26:09.

about to choose the new Prime Minister, we need to oppose that and

:26:10.:26:13.

effectively. Do you think the Tory party have a monopoly on with

:26:14.:26:19.

members? No. Let's park that there. Do you detect this claim of a

:26:20.:26:23.

moderate uprising among Labour Party members? I don't. I think the whole

:26:24.:26:28.

terms of this discussion are disappointing. The Tories could call

:26:29.:26:32.

a general election at any time. A turbulent political period and all

:26:33.:26:37.

these members of the Labour Party, 130 momentum groups around the UK

:26:38.:26:41.

who are doing positive community engaging and this is presented as a

:26:42.:26:45.

war, a battle as how to beat or defeat Momentum. I think to be that

:26:46.:26:52.

that is how Momentum presented. I think it is great people are joining

:26:53.:26:57.

the Labour Party and it outnumbers this ageing and odd Conservative

:26:58.:27:01.

Party. What is also important is the Labour Party becomes more

:27:02.:27:03.

representative of the country, getting mainstream Labour voters

:27:04.:27:07.

into the party, as well as people from Momentum. If Mr Corbyn is

:27:08.:27:14.

re-elected, if we go down this process, nobody has triggered it

:27:15.:27:18.

yet, but if he is and is re-elected and remains leader and leader of the

:27:19.:27:23.

Parliamentary party, 80% of which have no confidence in him... You

:27:24.:27:26.

need a new Parliamentary Labour Party? It is a very unfortunate

:27:27.:27:30.

situation we find ourselves in. I put the of that down to MPs who

:27:31.:27:36.

decided to take this action. I wonder where you go from there?

:27:37.:27:41.

There are many great MPs and MPs who will be having conversations with

:27:42.:27:45.

their members and could be won background. We need to build a

:27:46.:27:49.

bridge somehow, because it is a really difficult situation we find

:27:50.:27:52.

ourselves in. To have contempt for members and their views on to ignore

:27:53.:27:56.

them and think they should only be looking at the Parliamentary Labour

:27:57.:27:59.

Party is undemocratic move, I would say. What he is a customer when I

:28:00.:28:06.

first worked in politics a long time ago there was this sort of dream of

:28:07.:28:10.

cooperation on the centre-left another centre-left is now a kind of

:28:11.:28:17.

sinkhole, effectively. There is nobody there and nobody there to

:28:18.:28:20.

represent mainstream centre-left views. I understand what you're

:28:21.:28:25.

saying that even if you have 500,000 people in a group hug, it's still a

:28:26.:28:29.

group hug and not appealing to as a whole. The Labour Party was setup to

:28:30.:28:33.

improve the lives of working people. I'm afraid sort of being preoccupied

:28:34.:28:37.

with the with the issues left are preoccupied with does not

:28:38.:28:40.

communicate with the electorate as a whole. I think you are right, and

:28:41.:28:44.

through. I think the current system of parties we have inherited is

:28:45.:28:49.

becoming the unsustainable. The Labour Party contains two different

:28:50.:28:53.

parties now. The question is, will it be recaptured by the moderate

:28:54.:28:57.

mainstream and will the left have to go some rows and create their own

:28:58.:29:03.

Momentum party? Or will the moderates in the Labour Party have

:29:04.:29:07.

to hide themselves off and create a new centre-left body? Questions we

:29:08.:29:10.

must leave hanging in the air. Who would you like the challenger to be?

:29:11.:29:14.

Angela Eagle at the moment because she has had the balls to put herself

:29:15.:29:17.

up there. Not necessarily the ideal candidate and not my perfect choice

:29:18.:29:21.

but she has been brave enough to say she will take on Jeremy Corbyn and I

:29:22.:29:24.

think we should back her. No question Mr Corbyn would just stand

:29:25.:29:27.

down in your view question what I don't believe that would happen. I

:29:28.:29:30.

think that would be very disappointing if that were to

:29:31.:29:35.

happen. You have both had your say and we will leave it there. It will

:29:36.:29:39.

keep us busy which is what we need, during the summer. Not!

:29:40.:29:43.

A new weekly newspaper hits the newsagents today.

:29:44.:29:45.

Or should I say, it hits some newsagents in some

:29:46.:29:47.

Specifically in those areas that voted to stay in the EU

:29:48.:29:51.

in the referendum such as London, Liverpool and Manchester.

:29:52.:29:53.

The New European is aimed at the 48% who voted unsuccessfully to stay

:29:54.:29:57.

in the European Union, in what its publishers said

:29:58.:29:59.

was an effort to cater for people feeling a real sense of loss.

:30:00.:30:05.

Well, we here at the Daily Politics always wish all new papers well.

:30:06.:30:08.

But let's have a look at some other titles that have fared

:30:09.:30:11.

Sales of the new newspaper got off to a good start.

:30:12.:30:21.

This shop sold out in less than quarter of an hour.

:30:22.:30:24.

The paper is good to look at, with plenty of colour pictures.

:30:25.:30:29.

The first edition of The European, coming off the presses

:30:30.:30:32.

at the Mirror Group's printing works at Watford.

:30:33.:30:37.

Hello Sir, Sunday Business is launched this Sunday,

:30:38.:30:39.

it's a new newspaper and you can also win a free bottle of champagne.

:30:40.:30:44.

I've got my star writer in New York, and he should be here with a copy.

:30:45.:30:48.

An hour and a half to go and the newspapers are late.

:30:49.:30:55.

Editor in chief Andrew Neil makes a rare appearance

:30:56.:30:57.

Let's move on this, we're running out time now.

:30:58.:31:03.

The Lite version has been printed here for the last five years,

:31:04.:31:06.

but managers say it is no longer financially viable.

:31:07.:31:10.

After 168 years, the News of the World is to close.

:31:11.:31:13.

This Sunday's edition will be its last.

:31:14.:31:25.

It was the first broadsheet to go tabloid and now it's the first

:31:26.:31:35.

Hold the front page, it's a new national newspaper

:31:36.:31:42.

in the age of the Internet, published by the Mirror Group,

:31:43.:31:45.

but its own agenda, journalists on a new approach.

:31:46.:31:52.

Joining us now, and probably wishing he hadn't seen that film,

:31:53.:31:57.

is the editor of pop-up newspaper The New European, Matt Kelly.

:31:58.:32:05.

Here is The New European newspaper, a pop art hurt her for the 48%.

:32:06.:32:16.

-- Pop up paper. A new paper for a new constituency,

:32:17.:32:24.

very rare you are handed in market opportunity of 16.5 million people

:32:25.:32:29.

on a plate. It is, if you look at those models

:32:30.:32:33.

you have just shown, they had multi-million pound budgets, ours is

:32:34.:32:39.

in the low five figures. We are doing a conservative cost

:32:40.:32:46.

base, with massive positivity from journalists. We have captured some

:32:47.:32:51.

sense in the country there is a lack of representation the people feeling

:32:52.:32:57.

disenfranchised by what happened. It is weekly? You are committed to

:32:58.:33:04.

four editions. Is there a digital version?

:33:05.:33:08.

A digital page turner. We have a social media presence. And a website

:33:09.:33:16.

for people who want to subscribe. What will you tell me that I can't

:33:17.:33:21.

get from the Financial Times or the Economist? They have a sense of

:33:22.:33:28.

bereavement at the moment. Both those don't touch a mass

:33:29.:33:34.

market. We are aiming for a popular style.

:33:35.:33:44.

What sales will you be happy with? We are printing 200,000 copies

:33:45.:33:50.

today. On sale all week. If we sold 50,000 I would be delighted.

:33:51.:33:58.

?2, Miranda, are you up for that? This will test the ram named

:33:59.:34:05.

campaign commitment. -- Remain.

:34:06.:34:12.

There is a sense of cultural abandonment of what this might mean

:34:13.:34:16.

particularly in London and the big cities, maybe there is a market.

:34:17.:34:21.

I am in favour of any newspaper! The best of luck.

:34:22.:34:24.

Coming up in a moment, it's our regular look at what's been

:34:25.:34:28.

For now, it's time to say goodbye to my guest of the day.

:34:29.:34:33.

So, for the next half-an-hour, we're going to be focussing on Europe.

:34:34.:34:37.

We'll be discussing the status of EU nationals here after Brexit,

:34:38.:34:39.

and what the rest of the EU will do without Britain.

:34:40.:34:42.

First, though, here's our guide to the latest from Europe,

:34:43.:34:44.

The Dutch presidency of the EU came to an end.

:34:45.:34:53.

The EU must regain its confidence and fight growing populism

:34:54.:34:57.

and nationalism across the continent, said

:34:58.:34:58.

The European Commission performed a U-turn on is trade

:34:59.:35:09.

-- The European Commission performed a U-turn on its trade

:35:10.:35:12.

agreement with Canada, giving into pressure from France

:35:13.:35:14.

and Germany by agreeing national parliaments should ratify the deal.

:35:15.:35:17.

As figures show another rise in the number of migrants

:35:18.:35:20.

crossing into Europe, MEPs approved plans to set up an EU

:35:21.:35:24.

Border and Coast Guard Force to help member states under pressure.

:35:25.:35:27.

MEPs had some sharp exchanges in the debate about the result

:35:28.:35:30.

EU President Jean-Claude Junker mocked Brexiteers Boris Johnson

:35:31.:35:33.

TRANSLATION: Patriots don't resign when they get difficult, they stay.

:35:34.:35:42.

As for the outgoing Ukip leader, he says he will stay on as an MEP

:35:43.:35:46.

And with us for the next 30 minutes, I've been joined by two MEPs.

:35:47.:35:59.

Yes, they're still in the job for now, at least.

:36:00.:36:01.

It's the Conservative Amjad Bashir, and Labour's Richard Corbett.

:36:02.:36:06.

Let's take a look at one of those stories in more detail and that's

:36:07.:36:09.

the news that member states will now get to have a say over the EU's

:36:10.:36:13.

It could have big implications for other trade deals on the way

:36:14.:36:23.

including, of course, any new deal with the UK.

:36:24.:36:25.

If this has to go before all of the parliament, the hurdles are higher.

:36:26.:36:34.

This is part of a trend, not a one off decision. Trade deals if they

:36:35.:36:42.

are purely trade up to the European Parliament. Increasingly, trade goes

:36:43.:36:47.

into more things agree on common regulations which are a national

:36:48.:36:51.

competence so you need every member country to ratify. With 28 member

:36:52.:36:56.

states it could be a tall order. This could freeze trade deals by the

:36:57.:37:01.

EU. The Canadian deal will have some trouble. And the bigger North

:37:02.:37:12.

Atlantic trade deal with America, that won't get through national

:37:13.:37:16.

partners at all. This demonstrates how difficult it

:37:17.:37:19.

is to do trade deals with the EU. I am glad we are out of it.

:37:20.:37:26.

Not yet. Indeed, but we will conduct our own trade deals a lot quicker.

:37:27.:37:31.

If the EU can't do trade deals with Canada, who can it with?

:37:32.:37:37.

What about our own trade deal with the EU. If we are left outside the

:37:38.:37:42.

single European market, our main export market with tariff barriers,

:37:43.:37:50.

passport sporting for our financial services sector will be gone unless

:37:51.:37:55.

we get a deal. It will be more difficult to obtain than leaving the

:37:56.:37:59.

EU and negotiating afterwards from outside will be even more difficult.

:38:00.:38:06.

Canada had to start from scratch. Our product as locations are already

:38:07.:38:09.

there. But on the implications of what will

:38:10.:38:14.

happen with Canada, is it now possible that when we eventually

:38:15.:38:19.

come to agree the terms of Brexit, will that have to be agreed by 27

:38:20.:38:25.

national parliaments? The British people have spoken

:38:26.:38:31.

loudly, 17,000 Berger 17 million. The answer to my question?

:38:32.:38:36.

We have to start negotiating to deliver what people want.

:38:37.:38:41.

Who will gratify it? The new Prime Minister when she comes into being

:38:42.:38:46.

will invoke article 50. I know all that but what is it?

:38:47.:38:52.

Doesn't the Lisbon Treaty specified the ratification process? Could it

:38:53.:38:59.

be up to the national parliaments? If the new promise that gets trade

:39:00.:39:03.

incorporated in the divorce settlement, that needs a qualified

:39:04.:39:08.

majority in the council. If trade is left as a separate item, then the

:39:09.:39:13.

likelihood is it could be classified as a mixed deal which means every

:39:14.:39:20.

national parliament would need to ratify it. One of the great

:39:21.:39:23.

uncertainties. A new ball game.

:39:24.:39:31.

Sticking with this, one question is this.

:39:32.:39:32.

So, one question arising from the debate between the candidates

:39:33.:39:35.

to become our next Prime Minister is what happens to EU

:39:36.:39:37.

nationals living in the UK after we formally leave the union?

:39:38.:39:40.

Frontrunner Theresa May has said she can only guarantee their status

:39:41.:39:43.

as long as British nationals living in EU countries have their

:39:44.:39:45.

So, just how many people are we talking about?

:39:46.:39:48.

Well, according to the Office For National Statistics,

:39:49.:39:50.

there are 2.9 million people from the EU resident here,

:39:51.:39:53.

That includes people who've lived here for at least 12 months.

:39:54.:40:00.

It doesn't include those on shorter stays.

:40:01.:40:06.

Polish nationals represent by far the largest group of EU nationals,

:40:07.:40:10.

with 853,000 living in the UK, followed by Ireland and Romania.

:40:11.:40:16.

According to information collected by the United Nations,

:40:17.:40:19.

there are just under 1.2 million UK citizens living in the rest

:40:20.:40:22.

Of the 27 EU countries, Spain had the most with just under

:40:23.:40:35.

310,000 migrants from the UK living there in 2015.

:40:36.:40:37.

Ireland was second, and France third.

:40:38.:40:50.

Are you surprised that Theresa May has made the status of EU nationals

:40:51.:40:58.

and issue for the negotiations? I was on the Leave side. When I was

:40:59.:41:04.

asked questions during the run up to the referendum, I said that in

:41:05.:41:09.

future we need to control immigration. Those people already

:41:10.:41:12.

here should be allowed to stay. I haven't changed my position.

:41:13.:41:18.

But it is not what Mrs May is saying.

:41:19.:41:20.

But we have to take into account the 1.2 million of our citizens living

:41:21.:41:26.

on the continent. It would be a dereliction of our duty if we

:41:27.:41:29.

ignored that. I understand. You are facing both

:41:30.:41:35.

ways at once. Either the 2.9 EU nationals in this country are going

:41:36.:41:40.

to be guaranteed their status, continued status for the foreseeable

:41:41.:41:45.

future. Or they are a bargaining chip in negotiations, what is it?

:41:46.:41:49.

You have to take the whole thing together. Our citizens need the

:41:50.:41:54.

right to remain. Usually elderly people who have retired there are a

:41:55.:41:58.

vulnerable stage of their life. They need assurance they can remain that

:41:59.:42:03.

as well. It is right... It sounds like the EU

:42:04.:42:07.

nationals here are a bargaining chip.

:42:08.:42:09.

It would appear so from what has been said.

:42:10.:42:12.

It is even more contemplative than that. Not just about residency

:42:13.:42:21.

rights. EU law guarantees rights not to be discriminated against on

:42:22.:42:28.

grounds of nationality. A Brit living in Spain for instance, dying,

:42:29.:42:32.

what happens to the inheritance of their property? Some countries

:42:33.:42:39.

prescribe that. If we leave, we need to think of all these details.

:42:40.:42:48.

But do you believe that we should guarantee the existing status of EU

:42:49.:42:56.

nationals living in this country? Yes, people working here with

:42:57.:43:00.

families, part of the fabric of our society. To imply this is a

:43:01.:43:04.

bargaining chip which is not even necessary because if we do that I

:43:05.:43:08.

don't see any other EU country trying to retaliate.

:43:09.:43:14.

What about their rights? Is it right...

:43:15.:43:20.

Let him speak. Is it right when we are talking about EU citizens being

:43:21.:43:26.

allowed to stay here, which I agree they should, isn't it right we take

:43:27.:43:32.

into account our citizens, are we abandoning them?

:43:33.:43:35.

They have rights. You are implying other countries would challenge

:43:36.:43:38.

those bytes. If we are doing the right thing by EU citizens already

:43:39.:43:43.

here, they will do the right thing for British citizens already there.

:43:44.:43:48.

By putting it into negotiations you are saying, why don't you do the

:43:49.:43:51.

same and use them as a bargaining chip.

:43:52.:43:56.

What is the likelihood, 1.2 million spread over 27 countries,

:43:57.:44:00.

concentrated in Spain and France and Ireland, Ireland is not an issue

:44:01.:44:06.

because that won't happen, Irish people will continue to live here

:44:07.:44:10.

and British people will continue in Ireland. You can take that off the

:44:11.:44:13.

table. Would it not be a good position for

:44:14.:44:17.

Britain to take a high moral position, regardless of what you

:44:18.:44:22.

will do with our 1.2 million, the 3 million who are here in Britain,

:44:23.:44:29.

they are safe. It is not a question of numbers. It is our duty to look

:44:30.:44:35.

after them. There are 300,000 in Spain. They have largely gone to

:44:36.:44:43.

retire there. It is right we negotiate so they can remain. It is

:44:44.:44:50.

Brussels preventing us negotiating. They say you can't negotiate unless

:44:51.:44:58.

you invoke article 50. This is a bargaining chip. If you

:44:59.:45:02.

make this a bargaining chip, indeed they are in danger. If you don't,

:45:03.:45:03.

they are not in danger. It sounds like you have moved from

:45:04.:45:14.

guaranteeing they can stay to now agreeing they should be a bargaining

:45:15.:45:19.

chip after the campaign? I'm saying... We've not lied. The

:45:20.:45:26.

situation is, it's right that we guarantee the rights of our citizens

:45:27.:45:30.

who live on the continent. That's what we are trying to ensure. To do

:45:31.:45:34.

that you have to make the 3 million EU people living here a bargaining

:45:35.:45:42.

chip? That's clear? Rights for both. Our people on the continent, and

:45:43.:45:45.

people from the continent living here. That is not what Nigel Farage

:45:46.:45:52.

said during the campaign or leading Leave campaigners on the

:45:53.:45:55.

conservative side. Iain Duncan Smith, Chris Grayling... Andrea

:45:56.:46:00.

Leadsom, none of them said they would be a bargaining chip. The

:46:01.:46:05.

Leave campaign... I don't want at all, Bihar. -- on their behalf.

:46:06.:46:11.

Now, as you might expect, the result of Britain's referendum

:46:12.:46:14.

has raised some serious questions over the future of the EU

:46:15.:46:17.

Has Brexit damaged the European project, perhaps fatally?

:46:18.:46:22.

Or will it be the trigger the EU needs to bring

:46:23.:46:27.

Adam's been in Strasbourg to find out.

:46:28.:46:37.

Big moments in EU history, commemorated at the European

:46:38.:46:39.

This session, they have gone for a referendum them,

:46:40.:46:47.

Big Ben, a Brexit stamp and a picture of David Cameron

:46:48.:46:55.

This week, a lot of the talk in this place has been

:46:56.:46:59.

about what will Europe look like post-Brexit?

:47:00.:47:03.

Guys, I'm from the BBC, what direction do you want Europe

:47:04.:47:05.

The Dutch Prime Minister said the way forward is not big reforms,

:47:06.:47:14.

just a more effective EU, which is how the right of centre

:47:15.:47:17.

We are strongly against any kind of treaty change, we

:47:18.:47:24.

need concrete answers on the problems of the people.

:47:25.:47:29.

Stop the illegal migration flow which we saw in the last month.

:47:30.:47:32.

Find possibilities to create jobs for our young people especially

:47:33.:47:35.

If we deliver on such things, then people are happy with Europe.

:47:36.:47:39.

The Socialist group isn't just handing out goodie bags,

:47:40.:47:46.

they've also revived a plan by the European Parliament Presidnet

:47:47.:47:50.

Martin Schultz and his fellow German left-wingers.

:47:51.:47:54.

I heard from the quotes of those who voted for Brexit, yes,

:47:55.:47:59.

I can elect a Government and I can chase a Government out of power.

:48:00.:48:05.

So why not do the same in Brussels, to elect a Government which would be

:48:06.:48:12.

the Commission, and as well have the power to have a motion

:48:13.:48:15.

In the chamber, we saw even more extreme views.

:48:16.:48:21.

Uber federalists and those who really are not.

:48:22.:48:24.

And, in my opinion, a new project, a new vision should be presented

:48:25.:48:31.

Because the truth is European citizens are not against Europe,

:48:32.:48:40.

TRANSLATION: People want their sovereignty back,

:48:41.:48:46.

they want to cooperate freely in a Europe of sovereign states.

:48:47.:48:50.

And there is talk of whether the Commission President

:48:51.:48:59.

Jean-Claude Juncker should be in the driving seat.

:49:00.:49:02.

If Mr Cameron resigns, I think Juncker should resign also.

:49:03.:49:08.

Because his impudance was one of the reasons the UK leads.

:49:09.:49:19.

Enter the Slovak Prime Minister, who will chair a summit

:49:20.:49:24.

in Bratislava in September where all of this will come to a head.

:49:25.:49:27.

I have heard so many different plans for the future of the EU

:49:28.:49:30.

Mr Schultz's plan, Mr Verhofstadt seems to have three,

:49:31.:49:34.

Your summit in Bratislava, how will you choose

:49:35.:49:39.

TRANSLATION: More than 60% of our citizens support the EU

:49:40.:49:45.

but we would lose that confidence if we are too cool.

:49:46.:49:48.

So we have to listen to our citizens and bear their expectations in mind.

:49:49.:49:52.

It is clear that our whole house is not in order and we

:49:53.:49:55.

To cheer everyone up, a Northern Irish MEP invited

:49:56.:50:04.

this band from Belfast to Strasbourg this week.

:50:05.:50:08.

There are enormous questions about who will call the tune

:50:09.:50:11.

as the EU charts its future without the UK.

:50:12.:50:21.

He was one of the fiddlers! We naturally concentrated on the

:50:22.:50:28.

divisions Brexit has raised in this country, what our position would be.

:50:29.:50:32.

But it has created divisions in Europe as well. An two levels,

:50:33.:50:39.

Europe, the EU is divided on what its negotiation position should be

:50:40.:50:44.

towards us, and also divided on where Europe should go here, between

:50:45.:50:48.

those for further integration and those for greater nation state

:50:49.:50:55.

Corporation. Both mirror each other. The French, the Italians, the

:50:56.:51:01.

commission on the punishment beating more integration side, the Eastern

:51:02.:51:05.

European is on the Council on their less integration. Let's see if we

:51:06.:51:08.

can do a deal with Britain's lied. Do you buy that? To a degree, but

:51:09.:51:15.

remember the bottom line on the integration on less integration. The

:51:16.:51:18.

basic rule book of the European Union is a set of treaties which can

:51:19.:51:22.

only be changed to give more powers to the EU if every single country

:51:23.:51:28.

agrees. It can only move that the speed of the least enthusiastic

:51:29.:51:32.

country. On how to deal with Britain, I detect a shift of mood.

:51:33.:51:37.

The initial reaction was, you decided to go, let's get on with it

:51:38.:51:41.

and sort out quickly. Now there is a realisation that it can only be

:51:42.:51:44.

triggered by Britain giving in its notification under Article 50 and

:51:45.:51:49.

that Britain needs a bit of time to work out what it wants, what

:51:50.:51:54.

alternative is it negotiating for? We have no clarity on that. The

:51:55.:51:58.

Leave side gave two very different visions of flats, one inside the

:51:59.:52:02.

single market, but then you have to accept the rules of that market. One

:52:03.:52:07.

outside, but then you have to accept a tariff barrier. Both are

:52:08.:52:10.

unpalatable but we need to choose one or the other. There will be

:52:11.:52:13.

Leave voters who say, that's not what I voted for, that's not what I

:52:14.:52:18.

was told I might reopen the question is not why do you accept there will

:52:19.:52:22.

be private debate about the future of Europe? No appetite for further

:52:23.:52:27.

treaty change this side of the French or German elections? The

:52:28.:52:34.

Eastern European is to use Brexit as a way of building up the position of

:52:35.:52:39.

the nation state they even want to get rid of Jean-Claude Juncker.

:52:40.:52:45.

Angela Merkel made it clear they will not be doing negotiations with

:52:46.:52:48.

Britain, that will be a job for the Council and for her. So there are

:52:49.:52:56.

changes afoot. Yes, but I don't buy the line the member states never

:52:57.:53:00.

controlled the European Union. Every fundamental decision needs every

:53:01.:53:02.

national government to agree with it. Even when you need a qualified

:53:03.:53:07.

majority, that is a pretty hefty majority. The idea things can be

:53:08.:53:13.

decided in Brussels with member states being blissfully unaware...

:53:14.:53:18.

That wasn't my point. The division between Paris and Berlin in

:53:19.:53:23.

particular, how to handle this. The irony is that Europe could now start

:53:24.:53:27.

moving in more of a direction you wanted it to move in the first

:53:28.:53:30.

place, and we won't be there. I think Europe is in a pickle. The

:53:31.:53:38.

people of Europe are in a pickle. A British expression! The people of

:53:39.:53:42.

Europe want something similar to us, to bring democracy close to the

:53:43.:53:46.

nation and make decisions for themselves. Jean-Claude Juncker and

:53:47.:53:51.

the like would want a federal state with more and more power

:53:52.:53:54.

concentrated in the centre, and that's why Europe is about to

:53:55.:54:00.

implode. OK, we shall see if it implodes or not.

:54:01.:54:03.

Our guests of the day, like all of Britain's 73 MEPs,

:54:04.:54:06.

are now officially something of an endangered species.

:54:07.:54:08.

But they have the right to keep their seats

:54:09.:54:10.

in the European Parliament until the process of leaving

:54:11.:54:12.

So, when they do finally sign off from their duties in

:54:13.:54:17.

Brussels and Strasbourg, what will they miss?

:54:18.:54:19.

The grand old cathedral proves the first point,

:54:20.:54:27.

which is that Strasbourg is very easy on the eye.

:54:28.:54:30.

There's also an impressive son et lumiere show there every

:54:31.:54:33.

night during the summer, although when I went last night,

:54:34.:54:35.

The city is awash with patisseries, cosy bars and Michelin star

:54:36.:54:46.

restaurants like this one, where you can get the veal

:54:47.:54:50.

with gnocchi and mushrooms for just 49 euros.

:54:51.:54:52.

Although, MEPs actually don't spend a lot of time in the centre

:54:53.:54:55.

of town - they're over in the European quarter.

:54:56.:54:57.

Here, which is sort of like a theme park for Euro geeks.

:54:58.:55:00.

Over there is the European Court of Human Rights, peer through those

:55:01.:55:03.

trees and you'll see the Council of Europe,

:55:04.:55:05.

and over there - the official seat of the European Parliament.

:55:06.:55:08.

In here you will find the political stage on an epic scale.

:55:09.:55:10.

This is Parliament's debating chamber, known as the Hemicycle,

:55:11.:55:14.

and it's around 12 and half times bigger than the House of Commons

:55:15.:55:17.

chamber in Westminster, and while you're speaking,

:55:18.:55:19.

your beautifully honed words will be translated into 23 different

:55:20.:55:21.

It's quite a convivial place, dotted with bars and restaurants,

:55:22.:55:26.

like this one, and it's very, very international, which is great

:55:27.:55:35.

if you want to discuss olive farming in Greece from a feminist

:55:36.:55:38.

perspective, or the fiendishly complicated voting system here,

:55:39.:55:40.

One thing that no MEP will miss is the travel.

:55:41.:55:43.

I've now got to get the train to Paris, walk across the city

:55:44.:55:48.

to get another train, and then it's even harder

:55:49.:55:50.

if you're going to Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.

:55:51.:55:52.

big question is what happens to Adam after we leave the EU, never mind

:55:53.:56:31.

the MEPs! Remind me, what is the role of the European Parliament in

:56:32.:56:38.

the Article 50 process of exit? It would have to approve or ratify any

:56:39.:56:41.

agreements reached between Britain and the... Wilbur plan B British

:56:42.:56:47.

MEPs will stay at least until that vote? Yes, legally they are still

:56:48.:56:53.

members as long as Britain is a member of the European for union. I

:56:54.:56:57.

assume you would want to stay until that vote? You will want to make

:56:58.:57:03.

sure there is a majority to ratify whatever the British government has

:57:04.:57:07.

agreed? I would leave tomorrow if it was possible, but the thing is, you

:57:08.:57:11.

are absolutely right. These negotiations are to take place and

:57:12.:57:15.

we have to ratify them. So I remain until that is done. Are they already

:57:16.:57:19.

treating you as second-class citizens? No, that is not the case.

:57:20.:57:24.

There was apprehension after we went back after the Brexit vote, but I

:57:25.:57:28.

think they have come round to it now. Are they? Or will you slowly be

:57:29.:57:37.

sidelined question mark some understandably say if you are on

:57:38.:57:41.

your way out, it is not so much your concern what we vote on. But as long

:57:42.:57:47.

as we make contributions, continue to make contributions, we need to be

:57:48.:57:52.

on the committees, we need to check things and make decisions. Is a

:57:53.:57:59.

former MEP employable? Well, if we are outside the European Union, we

:58:00.:58:05.

will still want to influence it. Maybe we could get a job in

:58:06.:58:09.

Brussels. In Brussels. You want to be back in Yorkshire? Absolutely.

:58:10.:58:15.

You have plenty of time to get your CVs ready for a new job, have you

:58:16.:58:19.

taken tips from Andreas Beck? Certainly not. Maybe she would have

:58:20.:58:28.

some good tips. I would carry on working in Yorkshire for the party

:58:29.:58:33.

and try to get membership from the blue-collar workers of Yorkshire and

:58:34.:58:38.

the communities. All right. At least two years to go, at least? It

:58:39.:58:43.

depends how long Britain takes to secure what it once and then trigger

:58:44.:58:48.

Article 50. And that is what we will be covering. That is it for now,

:58:49.:58:53.

thank you to my guests, hope to see you again soon, goodbye from

:58:54.:58:57.

Politics Europe. A CHOIR HUMS: Adagio For Strings

:58:58.:59:00.

by Samuel Barber

:59:01.:59:04.

Andrew Neil is joined by Financial Times commentator Miranda Green for the latest on the Conservative leadership election, the battle over Labour's future and the launch of a newspaper called The New European.


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