09/09/2016 Daily Politics


09/09/2016

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Theresa May sets out major changes to the school system in England,

:00:37.:00:44.

with plans for a new wave of grammar schools.

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The Prime Minister wants existing grammar schools

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in England to expand, new ones to open and some existing

:00:51.:00:54.

This time next week we'll know who's taking over from Nigel Farage

:00:55.:01:03.

We take a look at the runners and riders.

:01:04.:01:10.

And Brexit banter, UB40 and Parliamentary Dog of the Year -

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we take a look back at the political week, in 60 seconds.

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All that in the next hour and with us for the duration,

:01:23.:01:27.

former Labour advisor turned stand-up comedian Matt Forde,

:01:28.:01:31.

She does the jokes at the Economists, not that there is many.

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First, Labour, and with two weeks to go until the result

:01:44.:01:47.

of the Labour leadership contest, the two candidates went head-to-head

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in a Question Time special on BBC One last night.

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Here's a quick taste of how the two men,

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Unless I misunderstood you, you said you would like to see

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Labour go into the next election saying - our party policy

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Because we need to find out what it is.

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Brexit vote set a direction, if you like, we don't know

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Jeremy, it is fine saying, you were there, debating Brexit

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during the referendum, but we didn't hear that

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We put the case to Remain and reform, we didn't win

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We have to work with the results of it.

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Owen, I don't fully understand what the problem is.

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You obviously have enormous talents, why can't we work together?

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Well, I've said it several times, Jeremy.

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If I felt you were going to lead Labour back to power, I would work

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with you in the Shadow Cabinet but I feel you are satisfied to lead

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There we go a flavour of what happened last night. Two weeks to G

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what did you make of it? I thought the first clip wags interesting. We

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saw Owen Smith being put under pressure on that commitment to

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effectively ignore the referendum result. I think it is odd

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positioning for him, in a party where one-third of Labour voters

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voted out in the referendum. I could see a strong pro-European tact that

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he should take. I thought Jeremy Corbyn, as we saw there, put him

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rather on the spot on that. You do have to work with the result,

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whether you are a Remainer or Brexiter. The problem then, I think

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for Owen Smith is that really, does he look like a credible candidate

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against Jeremy Corbyn? It perhaps looks as if he is the bravest. He is

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the one that has been prepared to stick his neck out. But I think it

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is a bit of a stretch to say - well, if we had this guy we would

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certainly be heading back to car, if we keep Jeremy Corbyn we wouldn't.

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That's the problem Labour voters will have with it. The consensus

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seemed to be last night. This was the big debate, BBC One, big

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audience, there are other debates, of course but this seemed to be the

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one where you had to perform to get cut through, Mr Corbyn did better

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than Mr Owen. He did all right. But he had the audience on his side,

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significantly. I think one of the most frustrating things as a viewer

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has been and it is an issue for the BBC and other broadcasters, how do

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you get an audience that's genuinely nonpartisan. If you are opening it

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up online, people pretend they are floating voters or not Corbynistas

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or not Remainers or Brexiters. From the moment that started last night,

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Owen Smith was facial a wall of noise. It was perfectly responsible

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for people to cheeks but if I didn't have to watch it for work, I would

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have turned it off. There is a level of political discourse that none of

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us should welcome. Some level of noise and cheering is fine but I

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felt last night there was a level of aggression in the audience that

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Corbyn at times faced, it wasn't all from his side but you got the sense

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from watching it, as neutrally as you can, that Owen Smith was up

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against it before he opened his mouth. Owen Smith didn't have a

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breakthrough last night. It wasn't a game changer for him. He was the

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challenger, you need game changers if you were the chal Enner. It would

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be possible to conclude, I would suggest, that it is therefore, all

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over. - the challenger. I should think it is. A sharp intake of

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breath to my right here. Briefly, I think it probably is all over. It

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feels like the momentum is with Corbyn. Let's be honest, the

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organisation is far better on the left of the Labour Party than what

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used to be right of the party or even the centre of the party. A lot

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of t never mind entryism but exitism going on. Exitism, is that just

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outside Exeter. I suppose the cynic would say last night was a squabble

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over who gets to lose in 2020? I don't think that deblight have have

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made any difference. People's minds were set at the start of the

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campaign, people joined either to support Corbyn or Smith and wherever

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you take the data from, and we have seen the polling, members of the

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party pre-Corbyn support Smith and those who joined to support Corbyn

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are still there. You could have had no debates in the contest and it

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probably wouldn't have affected the outcome. Well, the result will be on

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Saturday, the day before the Labour Conference begins on Liverpool on

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the Sunday. Now it is time for our daily quiz:

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Exsitentialism, what does it mean? No. That's for another day.

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the Chancellor Philip Hammond apparently dropped?

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B) fixing the roof while the sun shines?

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At the end of the show, Anne and Matt will give us

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We learned yesterday the Autumn Statement, Mr Hammond's first major

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act as Chancellor will be on November 23rd. Of course we will

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bring it all to you, here, live on the Daily Politics special on BBC

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Two. In her first major domestic policy

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speech this morning, the Prime Minister has set

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out her plans for education They are much more far-reaching,

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whether you agree or disagree is another matter. They are much more

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far-reaching than anybody thought. Including many of her Tory

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colleagues. Theresa May wants to end the ban

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on selective schools, introduced by Mr Blair in the last

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Labour Government and used to set out her vision for turning

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schools into "an engine Mrs May wants to allow new grammar

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schools to open and give the green light to existing grammar schools

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wanting to expand. In her speech she said she plans

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to make "this country a true meritocracy" and laid out

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a number of suggestions for how to achieve this,

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through more selection in schools. The Government will consult

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on proposals to require new or expanding grammar schools

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to take a proportion of pupils from lower income households,

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to establish new non-selective free schools, and to sponsor feeder

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schools in areas with a high density The Prime Minister also intends

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to change existing rules which mean religious groups opening free

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schools can only allocate 50% of places to children whose

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parents are of that faith. The rule has been seen

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as a particular barrier to the Catholic Church opening free

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schools because it didn't agree Downing Street say they will lift

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this cap, while also making faith schools do more to make

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sure their pupils integrate Theresa May made the case

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for her belief in the power of selective schools to raise

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standards in education - The debate over selective schools

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has raged for years but the only place it has got us to,

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is a place where selection exists if you are wealthy,

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if you can afford to go private We are effectively saying to poorer

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and some of the most disadvantaged children in our country

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that they can't have the kind of education their richer

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counterparts can enjoy. Where is the meritocracy

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in a system that advantages How can a meritocratic Britain let

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this position stand? We can talk now to our

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political correspondent, Alex Forsyth, who was watching

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the Prime Minister's speech earlier. Snr there was an expectation for

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when Mrs May became Prime Minister she would allow existing grammar

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schools to expand and maybe allow a few new ones. That has turned out to

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be far more wide-reaching than what we anticipated, isn't it? It has. It

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is radical, bold and bear in mind this is her first major domestic

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policy speech and she has gone out all guns blazing. I think her own

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opinion about grammar schools has been clear for a while, she has

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grammar schools in her constituency and wrote a blog a couple of years

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ago, encouraging the expansion of local grammar schools, so it is no

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big surprise she supports the concept of selective education and

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we have heard rumours about some sort of policy, about allowing

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existing grammar schools to ex-SPAD since she took office. On the

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grammar school front, yes, expansion of existing ones but also new ones,

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but it goes wider than that, encouraging new faith school places

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and new Catholic schools to open. About universities and independent

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schools having to get involved ape either set up or sponsor state

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schools as well. The real message from Theresa May today was directly

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counter--ing criticism about a return to the only binary system of

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the past, where you had grammar schools and then the secondary mod

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earns and very much felt that those who went to the grammar schools went

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on it to flourish and those who didn't were left behind it languish.

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What she was trying to say today was she wants to create a diverse school

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system where there is a range of options in every local area, so

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children can go to the best school for them, for their parents, for

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their skills, for their abilities. Of course that's not going to cancel

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all critty, we know the Labour Party and Lib Dems are opposed to this.

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Let me ask you this, where do we go from here? There is a will the that

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still has to be fleshed out, by no means, were all the questions

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answered this morning. There will have to be a long period of

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consultation I assume, as well, and will there have to be legislation,

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too? Do we have any idea of the timetable? We that we can expect

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further details on Monday when these proposals will be put before

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Parliament, so perhaps some more detail there. We also know that

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Theresa May's approach traditionally is a fairly cautious one. She

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welcomes the idea of consultation and I think what you are hearing is

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that this was a genuine consultation, this is her concept,

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her vision and ideas and then there will be a process of feedback and

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feeding into that before definitive proposals come forward. At some

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point this has to get through Parliament. We know because the

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opposition parties don't support the idea of selective education

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particularly, a number of Conservative MPs do like the idea of

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a return to grammar schools by by no mean always. Carmichael the Chair of

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the Education Select Committee, has expressed concerns about whether

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this really will help social mobility. The test is two-followed.

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Not just convincing those in the education establishment, and

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convincing parents, but she'll also have to get this through Parliament.

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Thank you very much for that. We'll keep across this big news story,

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hitting the British political system. In a moment we'll talks to

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the Schools Minister, Nick Gibb. But first, joining us is Lucy Powell,

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Labour's former Shadow Education Secretary. Well back. Is it your

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position, Labour's position to be against all selection by ability?

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Selection is not a good thing and that is what all the evidence shows

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us, that those who are most disadvantaged by a selective system

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are those from the poorest background. And that's why we will

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oppose this measure. We are opposed to selection. And we think this is a

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retro grade step. Because the biggest challenge that our schools

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system, our education system faces, it is the one it has faced for many,

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many years, is the long tale of underachievement. It's not what

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happens to the top 20% that do very well in our education system. It's

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the long tale of underachievement. And that gap was narrowing under the

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last Labour Government. It started to widen again under this

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Conservative Government and, introducing selection will take that

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gap wider still, because that's what all the evidence shows us, which is

:14:29.:14:33.

why the social mobilities tsar, the Government's own social mobility

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tsar, the Chief Inspector of Schools, the Chair of the Tory

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Education Select Committee, the Sutton Tru, the institution that

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looks most at social mobility are all against the measure. To be clear

:14:44.:14:48.

there, nothing in what Mrs May has said that you find appealing.

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Nothing? The only thing I liked in her speech today was that she

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rightly identified that free school meals is not the only measure of

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deprivation, and that there are many working poor families whose kids

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also need extra support at school. So if she wants to look at extending

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the pupil premium beyond those who are on free school meals to those

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that are the working poor families as well, I think that would be a

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very good thing to do indeed. So her analysis, in many ways, was right,

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the solution is totally wrong. But what is the principal objection to

:15:31.:15:34.

an element of selection by ability in a school system, which is famous,

:15:35.:15:41.

both in the private and in the state sector, for having selection by

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wealth? Why do we tolerate selection by wealth, and yet you are so

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against selection by ability, regardless of wealth? I am not for

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selection by wealth either, but that is what happens especially with

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grammar schools, where private Jewish in an spending extra money on

:16:01.:16:04.

going to a private prep school or having private Jewish and is the

:16:05.:16:13.

single biggest... It is not just -- private cherishing. You take the top

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500, and since in Britain, only 6% of pupils going to these state

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schools are on free school meals, which is a decent enough proxy of

:16:26.:16:29.

poor background, whereas the national averages over 16%, so even

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the copperheads of system is selecting on wealth. -- the

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comprehensive system. Why would a bit of selection on ability not be

:16:42.:16:46.

preferable? Firstly what we need to aim towards, there is an outstanding

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school in every community. These are figures after 13 years. Let me

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finish, the other thing we should be looking at is how we measure what a

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good school is. It is not simply about what results you get at the

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end of that school experience. Because if you come from an

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advantaged background where you are well supported, and you are able,

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you would do well at those schools, which is why those schools get the

:17:16.:17:21.

results. But the progress measure is what we should be judging a score

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by. My point to you, Lucy Powell, which I would like you to address

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because it is a really important issue is this, that we have

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substantial selection by wealth in our state system, in the state

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system. What are we going to do about that? We need to support for

:17:41.:17:47.

schools to improve. That's meaningless. I would say to you for

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example there is an outstanding school in the middle of Manchester

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that serves my constituency that just recently had an Ofsted

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outstanding in every single category. A deprived white working

:18:01.:18:07.

class community, they got outstanding results. Where they take

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their children from and where they get them to is significantly better

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than some of the middle-class competence of schools, certainly

:18:26.:18:28.

than many of the grammar schools, and actually in many cases many of

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the private schools as well. So I think if you flip out how you look

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at these things, middle-class parents choose middle-class schools

:18:38.:18:40.

combat what we need outstanding schools that are showing progress.

:18:41.:18:44.

All right, I am going to have to stop you there. But I am grateful

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for it, and I hope in the weeks ahead we will have plenty more time

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to talk. I notice your pet subject editors minus well. We will both go

:18:55.:18:58.

through it together, thank you, Lucy Powell. The schools Minister joins

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us from outside the rather splendid premises where Mrs May made her

:19:09.:19:11.

speech. What is your electoral mandate to do this? In the manifesto

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we said we wanted to increase the number of good school places,

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whether that is a grammar school. What the speech today was all about

:19:24.:19:26.

was creating more good school places. That is why we want the

:19:27.:19:30.

university 's help us establish good schools, we want the independent

:19:31.:19:32.

sector tout is why we want the universities to help us establish

:19:33.:19:34.

good schools, we want the independent sector tout us establish

:19:35.:19:37.

them to establish more good school places, whether that is by expanding

:19:38.:19:39.

or by establishing new grammar schools or buy them establishing

:19:40.:19:43.

primary schools or nonselective schools. The manifesto actually said

:19:44.:19:49.

we will allow all good schools to expand. They didn't say you are

:19:50.:19:54.

going to create new grammar schools. It didn't say you were going to

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allow selection of existing state schools to take place, or to create

:20:00.:20:05.

new grammar schools in areas where there are already combines its.

:20:06.:20:10.

That's not in the manifesto. So again, where is your electoral

:20:11.:20:15.

mandate? We want more good school places throughout the country, and

:20:16.:20:19.

over the last six years we have reformed our education system,

:20:20.:20:23.

bringing about improvements in schools that have historically

:20:24.:20:26.

underperformed. So now there are 1.4 million more pupils in schools that

:20:27.:20:29.

are good and outstanding, and we want to build on that. We want to

:20:30.:20:34.

build on those good school places and create more. We want to build on

:20:35.:20:39.

the diversity of our school system and allow people, young people from

:20:40.:20:43.

poor backgrounds, to have the same access to the kind of education that

:20:44.:20:48.

has historically only been available to those who can pay school fees or

:20:49.:20:53.

who can afford to move to areas that have outstanding schools. Already

:20:54.:20:57.

183 grammar schools left, why didn't they help for students? Why have

:20:58.:21:01.

they been largely irrelevant in helping poor students? They help

:21:02.:21:12.

those who attend them. What is the percentage? They are not perform...

:21:13.:21:21.

What is the percentage? It is 3% of children on free school meals,

:21:22.:21:25.

again, a good proxy or poverty, get into the existing grammar schools.

:21:26.:21:30.

The national average is 16%, so the existing grammar schools are doing

:21:31.:21:36.

very little for social mobility. I absolutely agree with that. When you

:21:37.:21:42.

see the details that we published on Monday, you will see there are

:21:43.:21:45.

conditions attached. We want grammar schools to be doing more to work

:21:46.:21:49.

with their feeder grammar schools. A lot of children from poorer families

:21:50.:21:52.

are not applying the grammar schools. Some of the feeder grammar

:21:53.:21:56.

schools are not giving their children the prior operations they

:21:57.:22:00.

need to get into those grammar schools. We want those issues

:22:01.:22:04.

addressed and actually you can find grammar schools around the country

:22:05.:22:09.

that are working very hard to reach out to children from poorer

:22:10.:22:12.

families, and they are delivering that objective and getting more poor

:22:13.:22:15.

children into those grammar schools, and that is what want to see

:22:16.:22:23.

throughout the school system. Let's ask you about some details. Who will

:22:24.:22:31.

decide to form a new grammar school? That can be as now, the Free School

:22:32.:22:37.

programme is all about encouraging groups of teachers or parents or a

:22:38.:22:42.

charitable foundation, or existing outstanding or good schools. We do

:22:43.:22:46.

encourage them now. So Free schools can become grammar schools, is that

:22:47.:22:52.

right? Existing ones and new free schools can become grammar schools?

:22:53.:22:55.

Yes, what this is about is about taking away a barrier to

:22:56.:23:01.

establishing good news schools. We are not talking about going back to

:23:02.:23:05.

the binary system of the 1950s and 60s. We have a very diverse

:23:06.:23:09.

education system now, where 85% of schools are good or outstanding, and

:23:10.:23:12.

we want to add an element of diversity so that we can be sure

:23:13.:23:18.

that poor children, bright, poor children, are being given the same

:23:19.:23:22.

opportunities, no matter where they live in the country, children who

:23:23.:23:26.

live in Kent for Bucks, or who can afford private education, we want

:23:27.:23:30.

poor children to have those same opportunities. That is what this is

:23:31.:23:36.

about. Let me ask you this. If an existing comprehensive desired --

:23:37.:23:44.

decides a percentage of its intake will be selected on ability, does

:23:45.:23:49.

that make it a grammar school? That would make it what is called a

:23:50.:23:56.

bilateral school. A what? A partially selective school or a

:23:57.:24:02.

bilateral school. They have already been selecting 35%, for example

:24:03.:24:06.

Watford Grammar boys school, and Watford Grammar school for girls,

:24:07.:24:10.

they are partially selective, 75% of the pupils are of comprehensive

:24:11.:24:16.

intake. There are other schools around the country like that. We

:24:17.:24:20.

want to have a diverse system, so that an academy can decide to select

:24:21.:24:27.

a smaller percentage of pupils. What sort of percentage are we looking

:24:28.:24:32.

at? You are saying some schools, existing conferences may be to do

:24:33.:24:38.

some selection by ability, what sort of percentage are looking at? Like

:24:39.:24:48.

Watford, like as Sean school. They select 12 .5, 15% of their pupils,

:24:49.:24:52.

up to 35% already do so. There aren't that many of them but it is

:24:53.:24:56.

an existing, historical type of school that that exist now. What we

:24:57.:25:00.

are saying in the White Paper, the green paper that we will publish on

:25:01.:25:06.

Monday, is that we want there to be more diversity in our school system,

:25:07.:25:10.

so we can make sure that every child from whatever background... I

:25:11.:25:16.

understand, you have made that point, everybody has that aim, the

:25:17.:25:23.

question is always the means. Is it your intention, as selection

:25:24.:25:26.

spreads, with extending existing grammar schools, new grammar schools

:25:27.:25:31.

and existing comprehensives allowed to do an element of selection, isn't

:25:32.:25:35.

still your intention that selection will still be done primarily by the

:25:36.:25:39.

11 plus and the spread of the 11 plus? These are the kinds of details

:25:40.:25:46.

that we will be consulting on. Pretty big detail. After Monday,

:25:47.:25:50.

when we publish the green paper. This is a government that wants to

:25:51.:25:53.

consult widely on policy objectives, and those are the kinds of details.

:25:54.:26:00.

The 11 plus surely is not fit for purpose? Sorry to interrupt, the 11

:26:01.:26:06.

plus is surely not fit for purpose, as something that can determine

:26:07.:26:11.

pupils future is at the age of 11, with a one winner takes all type

:26:12.:26:17.

test? What the Prime Minister spoke about today was allowing flexibility

:26:18.:26:21.

for new grammar schools, so pupils can enter later at 14 or 16, as well

:26:22.:26:26.

as at age 11. We also want a process that doesn't allow pupils to cheated

:26:27.:26:32.

to get through that selection process and there are grammar

:26:33.:26:35.

schools already, particularly in Kent, that by working on Jupiter

:26:36.:26:39.

probe selection processes in those schools. Good luck with that. We are

:26:40.:26:43.

actually over time, but I have one more question for you it is such an

:26:44.:26:46.

important issue. Isn't the danger you face of the desire for more

:26:47.:26:52.

social mobility that the new grammar schools, the extension of existing

:26:53.:26:59.

grammar schools, introducing more selection on ability into

:27:00.:27:02.

comprehensives, that that is all more likely to happen if it happens

:27:03.:27:07.

at all in already existing middle-class, Tory areas, and that

:27:08.:27:11.

it will simply make the educational divide even wider? No, because we're

:27:12.:27:18.

not going back to a binary system. We have a school system now where

:27:19.:27:23.

schools have improved unrecognisably over the last exteriors, and even

:27:24.:27:27.

beyond that. So we now have a system where 80 to 85% of all schools are

:27:28.:27:32.

graded good and outstanding, 1.4 million more pupils today in good

:27:33.:27:36.

and outstanding schools than in 2010. The whole reform programme

:27:37.:27:39.

over the last six years has been about school improvement and it has

:27:40.:27:44.

been working. But it is a very diverse education system, so what

:27:45.:27:47.

this is about is about making sure that that diversity and genuine

:27:48.:27:51.

choice for parents isn't just confined to those middle-class areas

:27:52.:27:55.

you are talking about. We want it to spread the part of the country where

:27:56.:27:59.

the 1.25 million pupils who don't have access to a good or outstanding

:28:00.:28:03.

school, where they live. That is the objective, to spread it right across

:28:04.:28:07.

the country. We will be hoping to talk to you a lot more on this

:28:08.:28:14.

subject, Nick did. You have been in and out of the sun and shadows while

:28:15.:28:17.

you have been doing this and I know it is not easy, even more difficult

:28:18.:28:19.

for the cameraman to keep the lighting proper, so we thank you. --

:28:20.:28:29.

Nick Gibb, the schools minister. This is a massive reform of the

:28:30.:28:33.

school system, you almost feel as if it was being done on the back of a

:28:34.:28:37.

fag packet. There is that, and I think the context matters, this is

:28:38.:28:43.

what Theresa May has set herself different from her predecessor, to

:28:44.:28:50.

rise above the Brexit debate and set herself as a traditional Tory. But

:28:51.:28:54.

in her defence, I would say in education where state schools are

:28:55.:28:57.

failing, you do need to be radical about tackling a lack of attainment,

:28:58.:29:02.

and if I lived in an area and I had children and there was a good

:29:03.:29:04.

grammar school there, whatever I thought of it I will try to get my

:29:05.:29:08.

child into it. Now education has changed, thanks to academies and

:29:09.:29:11.

free schools, I hate to agree with Nick did, but it is not a binary

:29:12.:29:21.

system any more. -- I hate to agree with Nick Gibb. So you were a bit

:29:22.:29:28.

disappointed in Lucy Powell's reaction, which was a traditional

:29:29.:29:34.

Labour Party reaction? It was. Labour has entrenched itself in a

:29:35.:29:37.

pro combines a system where actually a lot of the people who espouse it

:29:38.:29:41.

did not go to comprehensives themselves. There is a scene in the

:29:42.:29:46.

original Batman movie with a joker sister Batman, where does he get all

:29:47.:29:50.

of his wonderful prose? Where did Theresa May get all of these ideas?

:29:51.:29:55.

She was Home Secretary, she has only been Prime Minister for a couple of

:29:56.:29:58.

months. Part of that time was walking the hills of Switzerland.

:29:59.:30:03.

Has she been secretly cooking all this up, or has she got an

:30:04.:30:08.

educational guru? I think I can answer your Batman question, it is

:30:09.:30:11.

what she has thought of her life, she didn't need to cook it up. That

:30:12.:30:15.

is the DNA of much of the Tory party, also Nick Webb, who until

:30:16.:30:22.

today was out there promoting academies and they would we did not

:30:23.:30:27.

hear once, possibly in passing -- Nick Gibb. The focus has turned to a

:30:28.:30:31.

return to grammar schools. I don't think it is back up the fag packet

:30:32.:30:36.

territory, Andrew, but there are so much complexity that you drew out in

:30:37.:30:40.

that interview with Nick Gibb, what is the age of selection? What is the

:30:41.:30:46.

manner of selection? What is the impact, and it was not addressed at

:30:47.:30:50.

all to the academies programme. We heard that school improvement was

:30:51.:30:54.

all going very well but if it was, why not simply tweak that, have

:30:55.:30:57.

greater selection perhaps within the academies programme, 20% roughly is

:30:58.:31:03.

what a lot of them get away with at the moment, move that upwards, why

:31:04.:31:06.

say you are going to bring back a grammar school, which as you pointed

:31:07.:31:09.

out seems to require a moment when you saw the sheep from the goats?

:31:10.:31:12.

That would be the very divisive thing. Questions, questions,

:31:13.:31:14.

questions. Earlier this week a group of British

:31:15.:31:17.

peers and Christian leaders travelled to Syria to meet the

:31:18.:31:19.

Syrian president, Bashar al-Assad, and appeal for him to protect

:31:20.:31:22.

the lives of Christians The visit was criticised

:31:23.:31:24.

by MPs, for strengthening Soon afterwards, footage emerged

:31:25.:31:27.

showing what appeared to be the aftermath of a chlorine gas

:31:28.:31:30.

attack in Syria's On Wednesday, the Foreign Secretary,

:31:31.:31:34.

Boris Johnson, met Syrian opposition leaders in London to push

:31:35.:31:41.

for a resumption of peace talks It is obviously critical

:31:42.:31:43.

that the world, and all the interlocutors in Geneva,

:31:44.:31:52.

should be able to see that there is a future for Syria

:31:53.:31:54.

that goes beyond the Assad regime, and think that was one of the big

:31:55.:32:03.

questions that for years, frankly, we've been unable

:32:04.:32:06.

to answer satisfactory. What happens when

:32:07.:32:11.

Assad finally goes? And of course there is widespread

:32:12.:32:15.

agreement across the world that he must go, including

:32:16.:32:18.

with the Russians. There has been less clarity about

:32:19.:32:24.

the post-Assad vision for Syria. We've been joined by Caroline Cox,

:32:25.:32:29.

who was one of the group of British peers and Christian leaders who met

:32:30.:32:33.

Bashar Al-Assad this week. What did you hope to achieve by

:32:34.:32:47.

meeting the Syrian dictator? We have been heavily criticised for that. I

:32:48.:32:51.

have three quick answers. One if if you don't meet someone you can't

:32:52.:32:55.

raise criticism. Secondly we were invited by Muslim and Christian

:32:56.:33:00.

leaders. We spent two hours with Assad, we spent five days, listening

:33:01.:33:04.

to the local people. It was a tiny part of the visit but there is

:33:05.:33:07.

double standards in the crit civil. I work in Sudan, the Government is

:33:08.:33:11.

bombing its people there. Nobody makes the criticism. I understand

:33:12.:33:14.

that. But my question is - what did you hope to achieve? We raised our

:33:15.:33:17.

concerns with the President but we really went to hear the people and

:33:18.:33:21.

to hear their points. I understand that but I am anticipate talking

:33:22.:33:25.

about the meeting with Assad. We were able to raise our concerns and

:33:26.:33:28.

they are serious concerns. He had a chance to respond. We still have

:33:29.:33:32.

those concerns. But we have been seen to hear, it is important. You

:33:33.:33:36.

can't judge from a distance, you have to meet someone to hear

:33:37.:33:40.

criticisms. Did you come away, did you believe him, if he said he

:33:41.:33:44.

understood and would act on your concerns? He said he was perfectly

:33:45.:33:49.

prepared to have internationally supervised elections. One of the

:33:50.:33:52.

concerns we had from the people, the Syrian people have a right to choose

:33:53.:33:56.

their own leadership. They have to right to elections. They are very

:33:57.:33:59.

worried... Did you believe him? I do. Why? He has never had them

:34:00.:34:04.

before, except ones he has fixed? He said international observers but in

:34:05.:34:08.

the meantime the Syrian people have two concerns: The first is they have

:34:09.:34:11.

a right to choose their own leader and secondly they are very worried

:34:12.:34:14.

about the Government's approximately sieve forced regime change. The

:34:15.:34:19.

British Government's policy? Yes. These are all Assad talking points.

:34:20.:34:23.

I mean you have come away from it, we have this picture of you all

:34:24.:34:27.

meeting him there, this is the man that drops barrel bombs on people,

:34:28.:34:32.

and chemical weapons and chlorine is now being used and you come away and

:34:33.:34:37.

in your statement there, essentially is a mouth piece for this regime.

:34:38.:34:43.

You talk about the Syrian people must choose their own leader. That's

:34:44.:34:47.

right. It is unexceptional that he says that for a particular reason.

:34:48.:34:52.

You even quote the senior doctor's council. There are 4,000 doctors in

:34:53.:34:57.

Aleppo. The medical needs of the vast majority are impacted by the

:34:58.:35:01.

refusal of the international community to engage with the

:35:02.:35:05.

government. That's another Assad propaganda talking point. And you

:35:06.:35:09.

attack the Western media narrative, which is at the core of Assad's

:35:10.:35:15.

anti-Western talking points. You have become a mouth piece of this

:35:16.:35:21.

dictator. No, spokesmen, people who were there, heard the people, saw

:35:22.:35:26.

what happened on the day when they were criticisms. But the militant

:35:27.:35:32.

opposition groups also use chemical weapons, it is not reported. It was

:35:33.:35:38.

not reported. On one of the days we were there, when reported Assad on

:35:39.:35:41.

chemical weaponsical weapons there were four attacks on civilians by

:35:42.:35:44.

opposition groups, many who were burnt alive. It wasn't reported.

:35:45.:35:48.

There were four missiles on Aleppo on the day we were there, it is not

:35:49.:35:52.

reported. As you will understand, operating in Syria is very difficult

:35:53.:35:57.

for the media but I would suggest, where there are atrocities, the

:35:58.:36:00.

media has reported atrocities on both sides and for you to come in,

:36:01.:36:05.

many people, with whom we met, ie, Mr Assad's supporters, believe that

:36:06.:36:10.

the partisanship of many Western media narratives, that's an exact

:36:11.:36:16.

propaganda phrase coming out of the Syrian regime, Western media

:36:17.:36:19.

narratives. The Western media is reporting barrel bombs and it is

:36:20.:36:23.

reporting the beheading of Isis, where it can. And with great

:36:24.:36:26.

difficulty and many journalists have lost their lives in Syria. Agree. I

:36:27.:36:32.

have lost a colleague in Syria and you come back, spouting propaganda

:36:33.:36:35.

lines from a dictator? With great respect. We risked our lives to

:36:36.:36:39.

listen to the people. To hear the people. We met two of the ministers

:36:40.:36:45.

in opposition, not just President Assad. We met two opposition

:36:46.:36:49.

ministers and they are deeply concerned about the British

:36:50.:36:51.

Government's commitment to regime change. It'll be another Iraq. It is

:36:52.:36:57.

already. It'll be another one without re cystence. It is worse. It

:36:58.:37:01.

is worse for the people as it is now. They want a peaceful

:37:02.:37:05.

resolution. We tried to be their voices, we risked our lives to

:37:06.:37:10.

listen to their voices. You had seen Mr Assad. I shouldn't think your

:37:11.:37:15.

life is as much at risk than the people you are talking B it seems to

:37:16.:37:19.

come close to the ter trif useful idiots -- territory of. We didn't

:37:20.:37:25.

need to send an all-party group to listen to their concerns. Didn't it

:37:26.:37:30.

occur to you that this image, or indeed the Russian story which I

:37:31.:37:34.

notice isn't pryer advertised in your support. It seems an extremely

:37:35.:37:39.

foolhardy mission. With great respect, there is some security but

:37:40.:37:42.

anyone could be hilt by a missile. We responded to invitations from the

:37:43.:37:48.

grand mufti, and the Christian leaders to go and hear their

:37:49.:37:51.

interpretation of events. We went to listen. It is about how you go and

:37:52.:38:00.

what you bring back. Allowing an photo, in official gargs, there is

:38:01.:38:05.

nothing wrong with talking to empoo, Tony Benn met Saddam Hussein, and

:38:06.:38:09.

opening up a diplomatic route is useful however allowing a photocall

:38:10.:38:14.

which looks like Western religious leaders support Assad is a major

:38:15.:38:20.

propaganda own goal and secondly to come back and talk about Assad as a

:38:21.:38:25.

way of partnering solution, there is no solution that is meanfulful will

:38:26.:38:29.

that involves him. He has to g first helping to move Isis, and a

:38:30.:38:34.

transition period but there is know way Syria can survive with Assad. He

:38:35.:38:39.

has to go. I'll hold auto out, I was quite tough with the Baroness in my

:38:40.:38:44.

interview, and of course both of you don't agree, so it is only fair that

:38:45.:38:48.

I give Caroline the final word on this. We wanted to meet the people

:38:49.:38:52.

of Syria. We were invited by our own leaders, civilian leaders. We spent

:38:53.:38:54.

five days in very dangerous places, with the people on the ground, and

:38:55.:38:58.

we were in Aleppo when a university was bombed. We met the "ordinary"

:38:59.:39:02.

people. We want to be their Is vo. What comes through, as you said it

:39:03.:39:06.

is difficult for the media to get there and meet the people. It is

:39:07.:39:09.

very dangerous. We did risk our lifts but we were prepared to do

:39:10.:39:13.

that to be the voice of the people who invited us. I wish more people

:39:14.:39:16.

would go and be their voice. Everyone hears what Assad says. We

:39:17.:39:20.

want it hear what the people say and the people's concern is they do not

:39:21.:39:24.

be want regime change brought by the outside world. They want to develop

:39:25.:39:28.

and vote for their own future, their freedom. Thank you for letting me be

:39:29.:39:36.

their voice. We are glad you made it back.

:39:37.:39:37.

In Scotland the SNP government has run into trouble with its plans

:39:38.:39:40.

for a "named person" scheme, which would assign a specific person

:39:41.:39:42.

who isn't their parent to every child under the age of 18

:39:43.:39:45.

who would have responsibility for their welfare.

:39:46.:39:47.

The idea behind the scheme is to protect vulnerable children

:39:48.:39:52.

from abuse and neglect but critics say it's an intrusion

:39:53.:39:54.

Earlier in the summer, implementation of the scheme

:39:55.:40:00.

was halted when the Supreme Court ruled that plans for data

:40:01.:40:04.

-- the Supreme Court fted United Kingdom. Or at least not compliant

:40:05.:40:15.

with the European Court of Human Rights.

:40:16.:40:16.

Yesterday Scotland's Deputy First Minister, John Swinney,

:40:17.:40:17.

confirmed the SNP is still committed to the scheme but wants to delay

:40:18.:40:20.

That was met with criticism from opposition politicians.

:40:21.:40:23.

For the avoidance of any doubt, the government remains

:40:24.:40:31.

absolutely committed to the Named Persons service.

:40:32.:40:35.

For that reason, the Scottish government will undertake

:40:36.:40:37.

a three-month period of intense engagement in Scotland.

:40:38.:40:42.

We will take input from practitioners, as well as parents,

:40:43.:40:45.

charities, as well as young people, those who support the Named Persons

:40:46.:40:48.

policy, and those who have concerns about it.

:40:49.:40:53.

The court stated that, even after the information sharing

:40:54.:40:55.

provisions are sorted out, the Named Persons scheme

:40:56.:40:57.

is still in danger of constituting a disproportionate, and therefore

:40:58.:40:59.

an unlawful, interference with family life.

:41:00.:41:04.

It seems absurd, given that a 16-year-old can vote, marry,

:41:05.:41:06.

To remove them would be a strong signal that, while the government

:41:07.:41:12.

is not surrendering the Named Persons policy,

:41:13.:41:17.

it is listening, and not only to the Supreme Court.

:41:18.:41:27.

We did ask the SNP for an interview, but no one from the Scottish

:41:28.:41:31.

We've been joined from Glasgow by the Scottish Conservatives'

:41:32.:41:35.

Welcome to the Daily Politics. Now, the Supreme Court ruled in certain

:41:36.:41:46.

areas that if they want to proceed this had to be changed. John Swinney

:41:47.:41:51.

is now making the changes to comply with the Supreme Court ruling. He's

:41:52.:41:55.

listening to concerns. He has delayed the introduction and's not

:41:56.:41:58.

going to do it before the summer. Isn't that how you would expect a

:41:59.:42:04.

responsible government to act? No, actually, because he hasn't been

:42:05.:42:08.

listening at all previously and the real problem from yesterday was that

:42:09.:42:13.

he told councils to continue developing and implementing the

:42:14.:42:17.

policy at the same time as there are clear problems about its

:42:18.:42:22.

implementation. So we have grave concerns, specifically for those

:42:23.:42:26.

councils that have been piloting this scheme before, and who have

:42:27.:42:31.

been sharing data with the professionals, sometimes against the

:42:32.:42:34.

consent of parents, and that is something that has been ruled

:42:35.:42:38.

unlawful by the Supreme Court. So there is a major issue here. But,

:42:39.:42:44.

less than two miles to the east, behind you, in Glasgow, is some of

:42:45.:42:50.

the worst deprivation and child deprivation in Europe. Not just in

:42:51.:42:59.

Britain. In Europe. What is wrong with the state of appointing someone

:43:00.:43:05.

to try to keep these kids who often have inadequate parents, patients

:43:06.:43:10.

who have never had a job, often been on drugs. What is wrong with the

:43:11.:43:14.

state trying to appoint someone to look after these kids a bit better

:43:15.:43:18.

and maybe even give them a hand up? Well there are two problems wrong

:43:19.:43:21.

with the policy. Of course the intention is to try to help those

:43:22.:43:24.

families who particularly need it, and great problem with this policy

:43:25.:43:28.

is that it has been rolled out on a universal basis. Thereby taking away

:43:29.:43:33.

a lot of the resources which are greatly needed for the families that

:43:34.:43:37.

you have just mentioned and, you know, I think to spend a lot of

:43:38.:43:41.

money on families where there weren't problems, I don't think

:43:42.:43:44.

that's responsible government. But the second issue about this is that

:43:45.:43:48.

we are in a situation where the implication is that the state knows

:43:49.:43:52.

better than the parent how to bring up the child. That is what has got

:43:53.:43:56.

this policy. In some cases that may be true, of course. I don't accept

:43:57.:44:01.

that, Andrew. I think one of the reasons why the Scottish public has

:44:02.:44:05.

turned so firmly against this policy is for that very reason. It has had

:44:06.:44:10.

this undertone that the state knows better than the family. There are

:44:11.:44:15.

very good laws already, about how we conduct child protection, for

:44:16.:44:18.

example, the data protection laws seem to be relatively satisfactory

:44:19.:44:28.

in this country. Barnardo's, a famous children'ser charity that

:44:29.:44:31.

everyone has respect for, they are in favour of this. They think

:44:32.:44:35.

helicopter' help and they accuse opponents like you - the charity not

:44:36.:44:41.

the Scottish Government - of inadequate and unjustified

:44:42.:44:44.

statement. They, the people who have to deal with the vulnerable

:44:45.:44:48.

children, think this will help. Precisely because it is the

:44:49.:44:53.

vulnerable children that these charnts and many other beyond

:44:54.:44:56.

Barnardo's, gave favourable responses to the policy. The

:44:57.:44:59.

difficulty is that the vast majority of parents and many practitioners,

:45:00.:45:04.

in fact an increasing number of practitioners across Scotland, their

:45:05.:45:07.

caseload has increased because it is a universal policy and therefore,

:45:08.:45:10.

they feel they are letting down many of the children that we most need to

:45:11.:45:16.

help. I'll bring in Matt Forde. I understand that you quite like this

:45:17.:45:18.

policy. I think it is a good idea completely

:45:19.:45:31.

disagree. We know that there are cases that the state doesn't know

:45:32.:45:34.

any better what to do the job than the parent. Poor children, through

:45:35.:45:42.

no open but only -- brought up not only in poverty but with

:45:43.:45:48.

dysfunctional families. The state is operating on the behalf of society

:45:49.:45:52.

as it is when the police or an alert is called. It reminds me of Gordon

:45:53.:45:56.

Brown idea that never came to a fruition, which is if those centres

:45:57.:46:00.

for young parents. They were seen as truck only on and I had issues with

:46:01.:46:05.

them but on some level, if we as a society continue to allow children

:46:06.:46:08.

to be brought up not only in poverty but in chaos with no help

:46:09.:46:12.

whatsoever, not effective how, then we are all failing. I will come back

:46:13.:46:18.

to you, but what is your take on this? It is a perfectly sensible,

:46:19.:46:22.

thoughtful policy, it should have been a nudge policy, one that people

:46:23.:46:27.

will nudge towards doing. The attempt to make it legally binding,

:46:28.:46:32.

and the argument in Scotland is the problem, why do you have a policy

:46:33.:46:36.

clearly targeted on families who are in some trouble, which is then

:46:37.:46:40.

imposed on absolutely everyone? You can sue them why there is a push

:46:41.:46:44.

back that says the state is too active here, and indeed what would

:46:45.:46:47.

be the liabilities, what are the clear responsibilities of this

:46:48.:46:55.

person? It all gets a bit vague. A final point to you, from the

:46:56.:46:59.

Highlands, from Mr Alexander, who is head of learning and care at the

:47:00.:47:05.

Highland Council, they have been implementing this policy I

:47:06.:47:10.

understand from 2009. He says we have fewer children being reported

:47:11.:47:15.

to the children's reporter, we have fewer children offending, what is

:47:16.:47:24.

wrong with that? That is good, but the policy that Mr Alexander has

:47:25.:47:27.

implemented very successfully is largely to do with the way in which

:47:28.:47:31.

the services in the Highland are structured, different from many

:47:32.:47:34.

other local authorities, and I think his only to ship has been very

:47:35.:47:39.

successful. But the actual policy that has been implemented was not

:47:40.:47:42.

ecstatically what the Scottish Government was my policy was going

:47:43.:47:45.

to be, had it been introduced on the 31st of August. There are serious

:47:46.:47:49.

differences between that, and the real problem for many people in

:47:50.:47:54.

Scotland is that this policy does not have the trust of the public. It

:47:55.:47:58.

does not have the trust of many of the practitioners, and that is

:47:59.:48:01.

Scottish Government has got itself into difficulty. Thank you for

:48:02.:48:05.

joining us. Today would have been the day

:48:06.:48:08.

we found out who was the new leader of Conservative Party, if only

:48:09.:48:13.

Andrea Leadsom hadn't pulled out. We would have had more leadership

:48:14.:48:16.

races. If you're disappointed you missed

:48:17.:48:20.

out on a leadership battle, fear not, because Ukip are also

:48:21.:48:23.

balloting for a new leader. The front runner Diane James seems

:48:24.:48:25.

so confident, she hasn't been taking part in any of the hustings

:48:26.:48:28.

organised over the summer. Our Ellie has been

:48:29.:48:32.

meeting the candidates. Hello and welcome to this Daily

:48:33.:48:47.

Politics who is going to be the next leader of Ukip special. We meet the

:48:48.:48:53.

candidates wanting to follow in those very big footsteps of Nigel

:48:54.:48:56.

Farage. Now we could have come to the various hustings events that

:48:57.:48:59.

were being held over the summer, but where's the fun in that, plus we

:49:00.:49:03.

miss them, so instead the leadership hopefuls had finally come to us.

:49:04.:49:12.

Please welcome Lisa Duffy. Bill Etheridge. Lewis Jones. Philip

:49:13.:49:24.

Walton. And Diane James. And Diane James. This really is like a Ukip

:49:25.:49:34.

hustings. First question to all the candidates, who are you? I am Lisa

:49:35.:49:43.

Duffy, I have been a part of Ukip at. I am somebody that really

:49:44.:49:49.

champions the people, I have built the high election is up to our party

:49:50.:49:57.

and put Ukip on the map from a by-election and Weekley I am a

:49:58.:50:01.

long-standing member of Ukip. I have contested about 11 elections and

:50:02.:50:06.

been involved in a number of campaigns, ranging from female

:50:07.:50:11.

circumcision to saving a local art deco cinema. I did 20 years in the

:50:12.:50:21.

still trade before losing my job in Gordon Brown's recession, I have

:50:22.:50:25.

strong opinions, strong views, pretty radical but also done to her.

:50:26.:50:36.

I am Philip Broughton. I work in a supermarket. I have real life

:50:37.:50:41.

experience as well as political experience. What is your vision to

:50:42.:50:46.

Ukip in three words? Friendship, unity success. Three words, team,

:50:47.:50:56.

challenge, leadership. Radical, alternative, political movement. I

:50:57.:51:00.

believe this party has to stand for freedom, fairness and opportunity.

:51:01.:51:05.

Who is your political hero? Ronald Reagan, a great communicator who do

:51:06.:51:09.

things with a sense of humour but was also revolutionary and strong.

:51:10.:51:14.

In this leadership campaign I am determined to win one to him. That

:51:15.:51:17.

would be Boudicca, for having the courage to take on the Roman

:51:18.:51:23.

Imperial Army three times, and when to stop fantastic. My other would be

:51:24.:51:29.

the former leader of Singapore. Winston Churchill for defeating the

:51:30.:51:34.

Nazis, one of the worst evils ever seen, and Nigel Farage forgetting

:51:35.:51:38.

this country's freedom back in the referendum. Probably Winston

:51:39.:51:42.

Churchill. A man of many talents, who had his own personal challenges

:51:43.:51:45.

but he made a difference. He was not afraid to speak his mind and that is

:51:46.:51:49.

what you will get from Lisa Duffy. If Ukip are a drink, what would it

:51:50.:51:55.

be? Deceptively seductive but get you drunk. Ruby mild would be my

:51:56.:52:01.

favourite, strong and powerful, lovely taste, smooth and make you

:52:02.:52:05.

feel great. A very exciting fizzy drink. I think it is a fine red

:52:06.:52:11.

wine, one that is maturing over time. We are a political party that

:52:12.:52:15.

is 23 years old now and that bottle is ready to open an tekkers to the

:52:16.:52:21.

next level. Still alcoholic, though? It is still alcoholic but I am not

:52:22.:52:25.

an alcoholic drink to be fair expect that concludes this special. We will

:52:26.:52:29.

find out the result at conference on Friday 16 September. To all the

:52:30.:52:32.

candidates, thank you. We should say we invited Diane James

:52:33.:52:39.

to take part, but she declined. We've been joined by Owen Bennett,

:52:40.:52:45.

political reporter at the Huffington Post and author

:52:46.:52:47.

of the book 'Following Farage'. The candidates, find people putting

:52:48.:52:56.

up a great case, the one we have heard of of course was not there.

:52:57.:53:02.

Two others we have heard of, Paul Nuttall and Steven Woolfe are not

:53:03.:53:08.

even running. What is going on? Very good question. Paul Nuttall didn't

:53:09.:53:11.

want to stand for family reasons, he has a young family and I think he

:53:12.:53:14.

looked at all the work that was needed into going in to make Ukip

:53:15.:53:22.

bedpost Brexit party and thought it was not him. Steven Woolfe did want

:53:23.:53:26.

it but through a series of calamities and other errors he did

:53:27.:53:29.

not manage to get his application in on time. Not a great job

:53:30.:53:34.

application. If you are trying to run on a platform of competence, and

:53:35.:53:39.

can't apply on time, it is not a good look. Diane James managed to

:53:40.:53:50.

avoid all of the hustings, thank you for the exclusive Huffington Post

:53:51.:53:54.

story we got. She is going to run it like a coronation. Because she think

:53:55.:54:00.

she has got it? The Ukip voters who are voting will go to the hustings,

:54:01.:54:04.

and all of the other candidates are there, just to keep bashing her

:54:05.:54:09.

every time. There is a lot of Ukip people that think their future lies,

:54:10.:54:12.

they have more opportunities now in the north of inland than they have

:54:13.:54:17.

in the South. In other words, that Labour is more vulnerable to Ukip in

:54:18.:54:20.

the north, voted heavily for Brexit, than the South, where there was some

:54:21.:54:25.

evidence that previous Ukip voters have gone back to the Tories. But

:54:26.:54:30.

Diane James is very southern, isn't she, do they not need a northern

:54:31.:54:35.

candidate for this? Absolutely, one of her nicknames is queen of the

:54:36.:54:41.

South, because she is seen as not going north of the Watford gap. When

:54:42.:54:45.

the campaign kicked off she was in France. She had to get someone to

:54:46.:54:48.

send in her application on her other half so there is the suggestion she

:54:49.:54:53.

doesn't even want this job. If you go on her website and look for

:54:54.:54:55.

reasons why she wants to stands, the first two are reason she doesn't

:54:56.:55:00.

want to. I think you are completely right, it needed a strong Northern

:55:01.:55:05.

voice to really take it on in those Labour heartland areas. Just

:55:06.:55:07.

remember the membership was mainly in the south. What you get with a

:55:08.:55:15.

lot of parties, the membership and the electorate, they are two

:55:16.:55:19.

slightly different beasts. In a way it is quite amazing what is

:55:20.:55:22.

happening to them, if it hadn't been to Ukip, there would not have been a

:55:23.:55:27.

referendum, that is fair to say. There could still be post-referendum

:55:28.:55:32.

opportunities for a party like Ukip, to kill early given the state of the

:55:33.:55:36.

Labour Party and how well they did in the referendum in the north. They

:55:37.:55:39.

did pretty well in the general election in the North too. But it

:55:40.:55:43.

doesn't look like they are moving in a way that will capitalise on that,

:55:44.:55:46.

it could be a big missed opportunity. It could be, but if you

:55:47.:55:50.

look at that range of candidates, and we are all having a bit of fun.

:55:51.:55:57.

It is a dream. Couple of years ago, these were grumpy men from the

:55:58.:56:02.

south. Gin and tonics. In fairness to Ukip, you have the likely lad

:56:03.:56:12.

from the north-east, we have quite a strong, feisty panel, a professional

:56:13.:56:17.

woman, two quite strong women. If you put up a lot of other candidates

:56:18.:56:22.

who run in other parties on the first time out, they don't look too

:56:23.:56:25.

professional either. The Diane James thing I can't comment on. I think

:56:26.:56:30.

they have got strength in depth but they need a figurehead whose

:56:31.:56:32.

national and I would be very surprised if one day it is not

:56:33.:56:36.

passed back to dear Rod Nigel Farage. Surely not? He has only

:56:37.:56:40.

changed his mind three times. That was on the night of the referendum!

:56:41.:56:48.

What is the future the Ukip? I agree that this is a missed opportunity.

:56:49.:56:52.

What we are seeing is something that affects all parties, people look to

:56:53.:56:57.

leaders and see how exhausting it is, the personal sacrifices

:56:58.:57:01.

required, not just a lack of family life and friendship that the abuse

:57:02.:57:04.

you get regardless of your political persuasion. What we are seeing is

:57:05.:57:06.

the manifestation of what we're seeing elsewhere, the fact that Paul

:57:07.:57:11.

Nuttall did not want it, Diane James effectually saying we do not want

:57:12.:57:15.

it, and Nigel Farage, the exceptional level of energy he has,

:57:16.:57:19.

it was all down to the fact that firstly he rebranded Ukip early

:57:20.:57:23.

doors. People saw it as BNP like and his personality allowed him to

:57:24.:57:27.

overcome that. His relentless bags of energy that very few people have.

:57:28.:57:32.

Even when he falls out of a plane. Indy. It was an horrific injury.

:57:33.:57:38.

Owen, roughly what you think the future of Ukip is? Positioning

:57:39.:57:45.

itself as a patriotic working-class party in the north. It needs to find

:57:46.:57:49.

another way of representing those northern class -- working-class

:57:50.:57:55.

northern voters. Did you bring me a copy of the book? Yes, I thought you

:57:56.:58:00.

had about five already. But they were all signed! Just time for the

:58:01.:58:03.

quiz. The question was what George Osborne

:58:04.:58:05.

policy has the Chancellor Philip c) Wearing a hi-viz

:58:06.:58:08.

jacket everyday? So, Anne and Matt, what's

:58:09.:58:13.

the correct answer? Northern powerhouse? Wrong. Wants

:58:14.:58:26.

them to wear Hi-Vis jackets. That is not a policy! That was the policy to

:58:27.:58:32.

make Mr Osborne Prime Minister, it didn't quite work in the end, so

:58:33.:58:37.

there we have it. Can we see him up on the screen? There he is, Bob the

:58:38.:58:45.

builder. Know we can't! UNC Mr Hammond like that. Special

:58:46.:58:49.

Thanks to Matt, Anne and all my guests.

:58:50.:58:53.

The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:54.:58:55.

Jo Co will be back here on BBC Two on Monday with more

:58:56.:58:58.

in a brand-new BBC Two quiz show, Debatable,

:58:59.:59:15.

where a team of celebrities put their debating skills to the test

:59:16.:59:19.

to try to win their contestants pots of cash.

:59:20.:59:22.

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