15/09/2016 Daily Politics

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

She's certainly given it plenty of thought.

Now Theresa May's decided to give the green light

to the first new UK nuclear plant for 20 years.

After much deliberation, the government says the French

and the Chinese will build the Hinckley Point power station.

Although ministers say they've imposed tough new conditions.

Labour's leadership contest enters the final lap.

We'll be asking how Owen Smith measured up against Jeremy Corbyn

Ukip's got its own problems with party unity.

We've been to Wales to see if a new leader can build

And it's not exactly Oxford v Cambridge,

but we've been to see MPs and peers putting their oars in

for their very own boat race on the Thames.

And with us for the whole of the programme today

She was a minister under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown,

but is probably best known for grilling public figures

as head of a high profile Commons Committee.

One anonymous member of her committee once compared her

Which, believe it or not, was meant to be a compliment... of sorts.

Let's begin today with the government's decision

to go ahead with the construction of a nuclear power station

The ?18 billion project, which is being financed by the French

and the Chinese, was put on hold by Theresa May soon after she became

Prime Minister amid reports that she had concerns

about Chinese involvement in Britain's nuclear power industry.

Although ministers say they will impose "significant new safeguards"

Here's the Business Secretary Greg Clark speaking earlier.

It's an important upgrade of our energy supplies

for the next six years, contributing 7% of clean,

reliable energy and a major step forward for our new

nuclear power programme and an ?18 billion investment in the economy,

So, the government's made its mind up.

What, if anything, has changed since the decision was put on hold?

Let's talk to our correspondent Ben Wright.

Has anything changed? We've heard them talking about tough new

safeguards. Do we know what they might be? It doesn't seem as if a

great deal's changed so far. In terms of the structure of this deal.

The Chinese involvement, the price that will be paid for electricity.

There is this change around the question of the UK having a special

share option in the future that would enable them to block the sale

of a stake that other companies like EDF have in future infrastructure

projects like this. Number Ten say this is quite a big change in

securing Britain's national security going forward. But I think there

will be many who will ask after this remarkably, after this big surprise

in this huge deal, was it worth it or is this a lot of political

theatre to show Theresa May is pressing the reset button, really?

There will be some who are asking that questions today. It will go aid

head. There's something about the French having to rubber-stamp it or

EDF having to stamp it? It will go ahead? It will. Theresa May spoke to

President Hollande about this just before the deal was announced once

again. The beep mats between China and the UK have -- diplomats between

China and the UK have talked about it. Labour have asked for guarantees

that the Bradwell station that is now likely to be built, that

controversial Chinese power plant, they're asking for guarantees that

means Chinese workers won't couple to the UK to take care of that. Also

the price being paid. This will go ahead despite this surprising

two-month pause we've seen. Thank you.

We're joined now by the former Energy Secretary Ed Davey.

He was the coalition minister who struck the deal

Welcome to the Daily Politics. We've had this pause. Do you think there's

anything different in this deal from what you can tell? Eyed like to hear

the details. This special share they're talking about to help on

national security issues was something I proposed when we were in

Government. The Liberal Democrats were arguing for it. Unfortunately

George Osborne said he didn't want it and overruled us. So, I'm glad to

see it. You're pleased? I think it's the sensible thing and why I

proposed it a few years ago. How surprised were you about the pause?

Quite surprised. I think they've managed to annoy the Chinese, the

French, annoy other people investing. There thereby an extra

political risk for people wanting to invest in the UK. It's not been

Clifford and very well handled by Theresa May and her team. If it

results in a project which will help us tackle climate change through low

carbon and has this extra national security guarantee with a special

share, it is a the right thing to do. You were the minister in

coalition who wanted this deal. What about those saying the Hinkley Point

should be abandoned? I'm not surprised. Tim far lop has always

been sceptical about nuclear power. He's the leader. Is he wrong? I

think I he is. If you're going to tackle climate change we need a lot

of low carbon electricity from wind, sole auricular, tidal. I'm the

British minister who commissioned another renewable power in history.

I love renewables. I don't think they can do it alone. We need

electricity for heating, transport and power. That's a lot of green

electricity. Nuclear can help as part of a mix. Do you agree with

that? We need nuclear as part of the mix. This is a Liberal Democrat who

believes and loves renewables. Ed knows more than I am. I'm skeptical

about this particular issuement we looked at it when I was chair of the

Public Accounts Committee. It is hugely expensive. According to the

recent national audit figures they are worse than the ones you showed

at the top of the programme Jo. The subsidy to ED if will be ?30

billion. The prize is double the price of electricity as it is now

because the price of oil has gone down. The other thing is, this is a

big, big project. The Finns are trying to build a similar

capability. It was supposed to be completed from 2009. Now it will be

finished in 2018. This tends to be in the van they project area. I

would rather see smaller nuclear projects and other capabilities to

make sure the lights are kept on. You would like to see it abandoned?

I'm a sceptic. Not because imI'm anti-nuclear. He discussed the price

at the time. It seems incredibly hi when you look at her forms of

energy. ?92.50 at mega watts per hour. How can that be good for the

taxpayer? I don't know. No-one can know if it's value for money. We

only start paying for electricity if it's build. Let's say that's 2025

and 9 contract last for 35 years, to know whether it is good for money,

you have to know the price of electricity at that time and the

price of carbon. Maybe Margaret and the National Audit Office know that,

I don't know it. I'm afraid, I'm sorry, the reality is one has to

take decisions in Government because it's not just price, you have to

think about climate change which is criticalnd insecurity. The three

together. We've had to invest in rue knewables at a higher price than

this -- renewables. Ed, when you settle a price, you settle it

against projections that your committeeists will undertake. Of

course. But do you know what, the wholesale price of electricity has

changed in two years by a lot. It changes all the time. The economists

tell you that. Of course it changes all the time. Looking at today's

figures, it looks acrazily expensive option. But that's the mistake

you're making. Do you say you're making a stab in the dark? Can t

could make other forms of energy cheaper? You're right, there are a

lot of uncertainties in energy policy. Not just prices but what

technology will do. You just don't know. Sometimes you have to come to

a decision. Given this is the right for keeping the lights on, can plug

their kettles on watch TV, given it is the right decision to tackle

climate change, it is weird people say they know the price between 2025

and 2060. It may not be the right decision to keep the lights on or

given the speed at which technology's changes. What would you

do? What I hear from experts, I accept Ed's more technical expertise

than I have, what I heard is nuclear technology's changing much more

quickly. There are smaller stations you can build much more rapidly.

Make sure the lights are on better. What I also hear... That's not true.

I also hear renewables are developing quickly, becoming cheaper

more quickly. Solar is becoming more viable than it was a few years ago.

Going for this big vanity project may not be the quality of what we

want. I don't disagree with a lot of what you've said, Margaret. I'm a

huge fan of solar, wind, tidal. Why not use those more? If we're going

to tackle climate change seriously, the truth is, if you put all your

eggs in one basket then you are putting a risk in the fight against

climate change. I believe we should invest in all these low carbon

technologies. The threat of climate Church of England is existential.

When you last talked to me about this, it is a massive public

subsidy? The policy of the coalition is nuclear would get no extra

advantages over other forms of low carbon. It is a new subsidy? No

extra support against others. If it is no subsidy against others... Hang

on, Ed, it is an extra cost to the user. That's the point when we

looked at all the investment, there's an 18% increase in the bills

to the energy user in their bills from the capital investment. Do you

believe the polluter should pay? Yeah. If you do you, and you look at

the price of coal and gas, they should have a carbon #3r50is

attached to them. Nobody when they discuss this does that. Coal and gas

are causing climate change. They don't pay their true costs. If they

did, renewables and nuclear would seem much more effective. I might

agree with you on that one. Jeremy Corbyn was cheered

by Labour MPs as he took on Theresa May over grammar schools

at PMQs yesterday. But, in case you'd forgotten,

he's still fighting a leadership a challenger backed by the majority

of the parliamentary Labour Party. They held the final hustings of the

contest last night on Sky News, and the exchanges

were fairly tough. Do I regret the fact

that some colleagues, including Owen, decided to resign

from the Shadow Cabinet, hence we are having this

leadership contest? I simply say to them -

once this leadership contest is over, let's come together,

let's come together and campaign How many seats do we need to win

to beat the Tories? You know as well as I do

we need to win at least 90? No, we don't, we need to win

106, Jeremy. I worry that the leader

of the Labour Party doesn't know how many seats we need

to win from the Tories. I am just so angry at what the rest

of the Labour Party We're joined now by the journalist

Rachel Shabi, she's a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn, and Margaret Hodge

is still with us, How did Owen Smith do? I have to be

honest, I didn't watch the programme last night. Over All? I think he's

doing extremely well. He's got better. The most important thing is

there is a real distinction between the two of them. Owen Smith

understands what the Labour Party was founded for, and that was to

gain power and form Government. It was never founded as a pressure

groupment there are plenty of other ways Rachel and others can spend

their time in other avenues rather than being members of a pressure

group. What do you say to that? How do you think Jeremy Corbyn did? I

think both of the candidates in the leadership contest understand they

want to be leaders of the party in order to get into power. Because

what would be the point otherwise. People want to put their politics

into power. Jeremy Corbyn wants and needs to be in power to effect all

of kind of policy changes and transformations he wants to bring

about and that have caused over half a million members to support his

party. Not to be in a pressure group? Clearly not a pressure group,

clearly a party that's in Parliament and wants to be in power. The

interesting thing is, were that the case, I'm delighted to hear Rachel

say that, he wouldn't be listening to a relatively small bunch of

people... Are you talking about Momentum? He would be listening to

the nine million people who voted Labour and in my constituency at the

last election. Relating to their concerns and concerned with

increasing the number of people who vote Labour next time. If you look

at every opinion poll, every analysis done of his actual personal

credibility, we are doing worse than we have ever done probably in our

entire history. What do you say for that? You know

the poll ratings are disastrous, the worst-ever for aide leer at this

point. Jeremy Corbyn's personal ratings are 64 points behind Theresa

May. Can Labour win a general election from that point? I think

the most important thing to say is that the Labour Party has problems

and is in crisis and that has nothing to do with the leader.

Nothing to do with Jeremy Corbyn The Labour Party has struggled in

elections, haemorrhaging voters, regardless of the leader. How long

are you taking that back for? Tony Blair won three elections for a row.

We were in Government for 13 years. The Labour Party has been

haemorrhaging. Let Rachael finish. You are saying since Ed Miliband?

I'm saying the Labour Party is in crisis, and that would be the case

whoever was the leader and the truth of the matter is that neither of us

knows, how Jeremy Corbyn would perform. Because we haven't seen

what he could do. We haven't seen what he could do with a united

party, with all the talents and capabilities of MPs like you, behind

him. He haven't seen what he could do with 500,000 people supporting

him in the party, the biggest membership of any party across

Europe. When that group of people is galvanised ape put into effect in

canvasses and campaigns and gets out and talks to people on the streets,

we don't know what the result will be. Margaret... I talk to people all

the time. Hang on, it is clear that Jeremy Corbyn is going to win the

leadership election. Not necessarily. Lets Ayerza superhe has

won it Not necessarily. If he does, is it time for MPs, Labour MPs who

had no confidence in him before to unite behind him? I think what, you

know, it is very difficult. I think ofry Member of Parliament will have

to make their own decision. I'm afraid I'm in the camp that believes

that Jeremy Corbyn with his policies. This is not in anyway

personal. I have known and liked him personally. I think it is the camp

from which he comes, I know #4i78 from the '80s, Jo, when you were

first in television and I was active in politics. Their interest is not

in gaining power, it is in destroying capitalism and trying to

overthrow the current system. That's where they come from. Therefore, I

shall always be in the camp on trying to secure a leadership in

Parliament that actually brings... Can I say one other thing, if you

have lost the support of over 80% of your Members of Parliament, from all

whiches of the party, if all of them choose to resign, I think, actually

the grown-up thing to do, the thing with integrity to do is to walk away

and allow the party in Parliament to then have a leader that they can...

He clearly is not doing that and hasn't up until now. In terms of

unity, do you think that cause was helped by a leak of a list of Labour

MPs who have been disloyal to Jeremy Corbyn, was then sort of let out by

a member of the team. Will that help unify the Parliamentary Labour

Party. I want to answer that question but I want to respond to

that point. Destroy capitalism is quite a label to put on people whose

politics are in line with a lot of popular thinking when it comes this

things like investment in public infrastructure and the

renationalisation of public services and fairer taxation, reducing

inequality. Supporting the welfare state. I think those policies are

actually quite reasonable. And the sort of policies that will resonate

for people who struggle every day, as a result of the politics imposed

by this current Government. They haven't resonated so far. Answer the

question about the list of MPs. This was a mistake. It was devastating to

see that happen, especially on the same day that we saw the Labour

Party, how brilliant and effective an opposition it could be when it

was united over a cause and with its leader. It was a mistake. It is

important to remember that the campaign is very separate from the

leadership office. The two have nothing to do with each other and

while the campaign, of course it is trying to fight a leadership battle,

is going to have that mentality about it, the leadership office and

his team are not about battle any more, they are actually about unite

and reconciliation. We can see that from the way... There is no

crossover when the two. As I understand it, the two are in tact

and now we can see the which is do. It is important for the Labour Party

leadership to be now talking about... Doesn't it undermine Jeremy

Corbyn's whole argument about a cinder, gentler politics and trying

to unify and reach out to empoo. It did the opposite. I think it was a

mistake and I think the campaign team swiftly realised the mistake

and apologised for T I think Jeremy Corbyn's team is talking very much

about unity. We saw him talking about unity last night in the debate

with Owen Smith. That's where the party needs to be thinking right

now. What about, then, the performance of Jeremy Corbyn at

PMQs, it was his best PMQs. He won MMQs and there were lots of Labour

MPs who don't support him Jeremy Corbyn, tweeting high praise of that

performance yesterday. If he were to go on issues that unify the

Parliamentary Labour Party, could there be cause for the two sides

coming together? I think there is a lot of underlying values and

policies on which probably Rachael and I agree, I agree it is a

mistake. I think what is interesting, if you are a leader of

a party, you are the leader of the parliamentary party as well as other

parts of the party and every grouping has dissenters and people

who have a different view. As the leader it is your job, actually, if

somebody disagrees, you bring them in, you don't publicly admonish

them. Which he didn't do. Which he has never done. To be honest, I

don't make this distinction, the leader is the leader of the leader's

office. He has to be responsible for all those working for him. He is

also the candidate. He has to be responsible for the team working for

him. To say it is somebody else's fault, it is not me I am eight Mr

Nice Guy, I don't buy that. It is central to the whole of the way that

the system operates, I'm afraid under Jeremy Corbyn. But whatever

you think about it, obviously we are going to disagree with, that I

separate the two. I think he has been talking about uniony. #r5rdless

t doesn't matter, what matters now is getting the party to unite -- -

regardless, it doesn't matter. It is about getting the party to unite.

There was a discussion between Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith about

how many seats they needed to win the next election. We can argue

about the numbers another time. But as it stands to have a majority of

one, Labour needs to win a seat like base I think stone with a Tory

majority of 10,000. It has never had a Labour MP, do you think that's

possible under Jeremy Corbyn? I think we are looking at a country

that post-Brexit feels worried and insecure. We have the highest levels

of inequality. People are worried daily about how they are going to

make it from week-to-week... Sure but can they win a seat like basing

stone With 500,000 peel behind Labour, campaigning, discussing the

issues on the streets, maybe they can be persuaded. We don't know. All

right. Thank you. It's not just Labour that's picking

a new leader at the moment. The ballot for the next leader

of Ukip closed just as we came on air, and the successor

to Nigel Farage is due to be announced at the party

conference tomorrow. the party's having a struggle to put

on a united front. Ellie's been to Wales,

where the party scored a major win in elections earlier this year,

to find out more. Who do EU think you're kidding

Mr Smith, This is what taking the fight

to Labour looks like. Ukip campaigners outside

the constituency office of the Labour Leadership

contender Owen Smith. The party sees an opportunity in

Labour heartlands where the vote to leave the EU

was above the national average. As with most of the Welsh valleys,

there's been a Labour MP here in Yet, there's evidence

Ukip is making inroads. the party came second

in the last general election. in this year's Welsh Assembly

elections. But the challenge here will be

convincing voters that Ukip still has a role following that

Brexit vote. Perhaps, I think it might

be the end of them. They seem a bit disjointed

in Wales, don't they? Would you vote Ukip?

No. Have you ever voted Ukip?

No. Do you think Ukip can start

winning here in Wales? Well, yes, I'd like to think

they could, yeah. And there's another problem

round the corner too. The internal divisions within Ukip

have been well publicised. On the one side, you've those

loyal to Nigel Farage. On the other, a camp of people who

felt sidelined by his leadership. The likes of Douglas Carswell,

the party's only MP. I'm told the two men haven't spoken

since before the EU referendum. But if you think that's bad,

welcome to the Welsh Assembly. He says he's the Ukip leader in

Wales, but he's a Ukip MEP for Wales but that he sits as an independent

on the Welsh Assembly. The reason for that is I just felt

it was impossible to work within the group of some of the Assembly

Members here. I didn't want to be

associated with them. They were basically working

against the party, the leadership. I felt it important to distance

myself from them. He's talking in particular

about Neil Hamilton. that he's no longer a member of the

Ukip group in the Assembly. Hasn't had the courtesy to write

to me to tell me that. His fundamental problem is he hasn't

been able to get over the fact that he didn't have the confidence

of his colleagues Doesn't reflect very well

on the party, does it? No, it doesn't reflect

very well on him. He doesn't exactly have a cuddly

relationship with Nigel Farage. But he does have friends on the

party's But allies of the leadership

frontrunner Diane James, These people are not fit

to run a village fate. So, whatever happens

with the leadership on Friday, is there going to be

a blood bath in Ukip? Some of it might be where people

will just choose themselves to leave the party or to remove themselves

from very public positions. But I think, ultimately,

whoever the new leader is, you're going to need a team

of people around you that you can trust and who are not going to spend

the next two or three years back-stabbing you and

trying to undermine you. The long-term success of Ukip

will depend on decisions made in the coming weeks and months

on policy, on personalities. The new leader will have

a lot of work to do. Joining me now is Steve Stanbury,

formerly Party Director of Ukip. Welcome to the programme. What do

you make of what is going on in the party, in Wales, particularly? Well,

Wales is a mess. Wales is very disorganised and lots of in-fighting

but I think that really is just the I to have the iceberg and actually

shows as there is a much wider, broader problem within Ukip in terms

of competence, in terms of people, in terms of not having good

candidates coming forward for the leadership. That has been a

nightmare. Actually, Jo, I think the bigger problem is not about

individuals and the factions, I think it is in terms of strategy and

what Ukip does in the future. The big question is - does Ukip have a

future s it relevant? Do you not think it is? I think really it's

best days are behind T I think Ukip has set out, fundamentally to

achieve what it was meant to do. Ukip's mission was to get a rev and

to contribute to the winning of that referendum and Ukip has done that

and done it well. But going forwards now, I think it is actually the

Conservative Party that is better-placed to actually now

deliver on Brexit and that's why, Jo, I have decided and I hope many

of my colleagues will, that I'm actually leaving Ukip and rejoining

the Conservative Party. That's it, it is over for you. You were a

long-standing member of u ki. You feel they have achieved what they

set out to do and you have left, defected? I have, I have gone back

to the Conservative Party for a number of reasons. Ukip set out what

it intended to do. The principal objective was to secure a

referendum. Before David Cameron, in January 2013, before he gave that

position, his position, the position of the Conservative Party was

against a referendum, to not let the people have a say. The referendum

was offered because of the pressure Ukip put on the Conservative Party.

Ukip played a big and positive role and actually winning the referendum.

Now, what we all need to do is deliver on Brexit. What I would say

to many of my colleagues and friends in Ukip, is come home, come back to

the Conservative Party, because that's where and how we can actually

deliver on Brexit. That's the priority now. It is not very loyal

of you, bearing in mind you have been part of this party which has

achieved in your own words "actually having a referendum on the EU." Our

relationship with the EU and achieved what you wanted, Brexit and

now you are going to run off and jointed Conservatives again I don't

think politics and parties should be looked at like brands, football

teams. It is about ideas and change and the sort of country we want to

have. Ukip's principles and policies in terms of giving the British

people a say and becoming a solve governing country again, we have

achieved that and now the best way to deliver on that... Is to go to

the party that Theresa May was a Remainer. Gowering going into a

party under a Prime Minister and leader who voted to Remain? Theresa

May was always regarded as a very reluctant and sceptical Remainer.

But look at her record and what she has said and what she is doing now

already. I think her appointments in the Cabinet, a leading role for most

of the Brexiteers, is really very good. I think Boris Johnson is an

excellent choice for Foreign Secretary and I think there is going

to be a lot of change in positive direction and also, I would say, the

way in which other ways, subtle but important ways in which the

Conservative Party is change a new education policy is great thing.

Scepticism on our wasteful, grotesquely wasteless foreign aid

budget. All is recovering core values that I believe will... I

don't think they're getting rid of it at the moment. You think they are

sticking to that spending. From GDP of 0.7%. Have you told Nigel Farage?

We are literally the second people to know? What did he say?

Disappointed but I think a lot of people... Did he try to make you

stay? No. I think a lot of people will follow in my footsteps. I kip

played a really important role in terms of our national story, our

national politics. We've got O'This wonderful place where we are a

self-governing country. The Conservative Party can be the only

party now that delivers on Brexit. That's the priority. This is the

sucks says of Theresa May and the Conservative Party. They're not

coming to the Labour Party, are they? I think a lot of the people

who voted to -- on Brexit to leave Europe are traditional Labour

voters. This there is a task for the Labour Party to bring them back into

the Labour fold. We were remain. But out of touch with a lot of your

voters when you look at the northern towns and cities who voted to leave.

I know more than anything, we had 12 elected BNP councillors elected in

2006. I know more than most, the importance of staying in touch with

your voters, reflecting the issues of concern, for me that's

immigration. I think that was wrongly exploited in the Brexit

campaign. Deeply regret that. Labour has that challenge of getting in

touch. Reare flecting that in what they say in Parliament. Does Owen

Smith's promise of a second referendum help in terms of bringing

back those marginalised voters who feel the party doesn't understand

them? I don't entirely go with Owen on that. You are supporting him? I

am on the broader front. We need to tackle immigration which is why I

think most people voted to leave Europe. I think it's really

important to engage with people to build a really strongly diverse

country that is at peace with it Elfself. Do you think it's a mistake

of Owen Smith to pursue this second rev reign dumb? We'll see. Every day

you wake up and listen to the news there's further delay in seeing what

that means in practice. The three people charged in looking at this

are spending their times rowing with each other on the Tory bench. We

heard today from the Germans that we're unlikely to be able to start

engaging after they've had their national... Doesn't mean it won't

happen? Depends how and when it happens. 9 details. Do you feel

you've let people down. Ukip was' just about leaving the EU. Always.

Ukip's principle purpose was to free Britain from the shackles of the EU.

You don't think it will survive? Not in its current form. I want the

Conservative Party to be successful. In order to deliver on Brexit. Then

take advantage of all the opportunities that flow from Brexit,

we will need a bigger Conservative majority. People need to rejoin the

Conservative Party. There will not be very much space for Ukip in that.

Steve, thank you. And you can see Nigel Farage's

farewell speech at the Ukip conference

on the Daily Politics tomorrow. We'll be on air at the slightly

earlier time of 11.30am Now, our guest of the day, Margaret

Hodge, chaired the Commons Public and she learned so much

about government waste, incompetence and corporate bad behaviour she's

even written a book about it. to help give the work of select

committees a far higher profile, after the chairmen became elected by

fellow MPs - rather than nominated Let's have a look at Margaret

and a few other moments where the committees have

made their mark. In that case,

you were either incredibly naive, and I don't think that the record

that you've shown of your performance here, as a guardian of

HSBC, gives me the confidence that you should be the guardian of the

BBC licence fee payers' money. I really do think you should

consider your position and you should think about resigning

and if not, I think Mr Murdoch, at what point did

you find out that criminality Endemic is a very hard -

a very wide-ranging word. Did the Bank of England consider

whether it was in the public interest to risk its

reputation of impartiality. I think those that cast it

into question should consider their motivations

and their judgments. Sir, do you mind not looking at me

like that all the time, You seem extraordinarily

thin-skinned to quite courteous questions,

as if you don't want to be challenged in any

way, shape or form... In terms of that wider corporate

governance point, in respect of the selling of BHS, did anybody,

particularly your non-exe directors say, "Phil I'm not entirely

certain this is correct, That doesn't seem to be the culture

of the organisation. he's Chairman of Public Affairs

at Weber Shandwick and he has prepared witnesses to

appear before the select committees. Someone's got to do it. Welcome to

the programme. So, Margaret Hodge, you've written this book and Jon has

brought it in. There it is. In terms of what you were trying to do on

that committee, do you think it was all about just getting publicity?

No. We used the power of the media to draw issues to the public

account. We have very few tools in our box. We're not an executive

body. The only way you can raise issues and make sure they're

properly discussed in public is to get people like you, Jo, interested

in them. I'm not ashamed of the fact we are, were, theatre. It's great

when you're theatre. You saw the best of the theatre in those clips

you did. It is the purpose. Was it theatre for its own end, no. It was

theatre to a purpose to draw people's attention to 2. Tax

avoidance, which you didn't cover, which raps was the most important

thing we did. If we hadn't brought the public into that and had that

extent of public fury at it, we might not be seeing the changes the

boardrooms we have today? . Do you agree with that select committees

are sexier than ever these days because of the issues brought to the

forein a he theatrical way? The Public Accounts Committee is an

honourable exception as it Margaret. It is backed up by the National

Audit Office and rigorous work around public spending which, as a

taxpayer, I really become. I've had half an hour on the books so far. It

as fabulously narrative and reflective tone. Anyone interested

in the process. My issue about select committees is they give a gym

crack accountability which is no substitute for really scoot Faizing

Parliament. Earlier this week, David Davis sailed through a Lord's and

Commons select committee on Brexit. They didn't put a finger on him at

all. That's no good. We might end up agreeing a lot on this. The role of

select committees, I really welcome the way they've emerged, I hope we

keep that there, the accountability of the executive is really

important. One reason they're all too often not effective, people look

at future policy. New ideas. If you're a the left tackling

inequality. On the right, privatisation, rather than looking

at how the Government's doing, the record of the Government. Our voters

out there care a lot of it's their money that's being used. They care

how programmes are being implemented, how money's spent.

Select committees could do more. As Ian write is doing, looking at

what's happening now than dreaming about what's in the future. Did they

go too far? You relate to it in your book. He provoked Gus, O'Donnell,

the head of the civil service at the time to say you were turning it into

a theatrical exercise in public humiliation. Did he have a point?

No, I have a lot of suggestions of things I'd like to change. One of

them is about the tradition of how civil servants account to

Parliament. At the moment, civil servants don't really account to

Parliament. They account to ministers who account to Parliament.

That all worked when there were 26 civil servants in the Home Office.

Today, there are 36,000. I feel they should be accountable to torment.

Gus O'Donnell disagrees with that. I think he's wrong. The current system

is broke. Should it be in front of the cameras? It lends itself to show

boating, grandstanding whoever is in front. If you took it off air, would

people get more out of these politicians and business people? I

do want them taken off air. The custard pie, Philip Green weirdness

and Dominic come I thinks appearance which is one to appreciate... We all

enjoyed it. But But for the public. It is about accountability. I think

members of Parliament, their role is to hold the executive to account on

behalf of the public. For the public to see it is really important. It

may be uncomfortable, sometimes feel trivial. I can tell you, what we

uncovered during the course of our inquiries really resonated with the

public. I can tell that from my inbox, from the letters I got. I

think it's an important way of bringing democracy closer to the

people. Before we carry on, there was news today, I don't know if you

came across it, a member of your public accounts committee, Justin

Tomlinson who's facings suspicion for leeking a report on payday

lenders Wonga. He's made a statement. I wanted to take this

opportunity to make a full under unrest everybodied apology to the

house. In 2013 I broke the rules of conduct by drafting on buck lick

accounts regarding the receiptinglation of consumer credit.

An investigation by the Parliament standards was investigating in 2015

following a complaint made by won Ga. The reports submitted by the

commission of standards. I accept that my actions ensure in sharing

the report constituted intear fearence and for this I'm truly

sorry. This was never my intention. These actions came as a result of my

own naivety driven by a desire to strengthen regulations on payday

lenders and protect vulnerable consumers. Naivety, Margaret Hodge,

is putting it nicely? Should he be suspended? Do you know, I do think

in this particular instance it was naivety. It was an early time, he'd

only been on the committee for a couple of months. It was wrong. He

shouldn't have done it. I feel a bit sorry for him. You could see he was

responding in a very personal way. He sounded quite upset. Do you think

he should be suspended I think there is an issue overall about

committees, the piano should respect the process. Even when I'm preparing

witnesses, you must respect the process. You must answer the

questions being asked and you have to get your message across. In all

aspects the committees need a deep review and more resourcing to get

them in front of departments toe to toe to challenge them. We'll have

new select committees to scrutinise Brexit? One of the things I talk

about in the book when ministers tried to influence things which

happened in the committee is deeply wrong. I'll never probably prove it.

It was obvious to me people had been nobbled. Members of the committee.

By ministers. That was totally unacceptable. Are there too many

people on these committees? Sometimes the questions and

diversity, they go off on a tangent can sometimes lose a thread? The

quality is variable. There are occasional drowsy moments when

you're watching committees in progress. It's not always exciting.

Isn't isn't that good for your clients? Bore them to death is a

strategy. Drove me mad. The committees are the right size. We

need sharp members. What about this thrix the committee? It will be

chaired by a Labour MP? Is that it? Yes, should the post go to a

remainor like Hilary Benn or geese letter Stuart who is a Brexiteer? If

you want to reflect the Labour Party, it should be a remainor. It

would be a good balance against the direction of Government if you want

to hold it properly to account. Remember, the vote, whilst I'm not

for having another vote, the vote wasn't that unevenly balanced. Final

words of advice to your clients and then your committee members? It's

fundamentally work with the process. It is important even though I have

my criticisms of it. But don't be afraid to take advice. I know

Margaret the arend her fellow chairs have hated people being prepared. If

you look overprepared, it's useless. Respect the process, answer the

question. Get your message across. I don't think people need to be

prebared. If thaw came, were honest, answered directly, they didn't

waffle on, they would get a fair hearing. It's when people didn't

answer directly that they then got a rough time. I think we agree. You

enjoyed it? I did. I had five good years. I hope the purpose of the

book is not just to describe some of the hearings we had, but also to

make suggestion for the future. I hope they will be taken seriously

and debated. Jon, thank you. A new group will launch today

with the aim of winning the support of ethnic minority voters

for the Conservatives. The campaign group, Modern Britain,

aims to replicate grassroots campaigning techniques

being developed in Canada. Ethnic minority voters will play

an increasingly prominent role in future general elections,

with non-white people projected to make up 30%

of the population by 2050. Of the 20 seats the Conservative

Party has the best chance of gaining in 2020, 10 have a proportion

of ethnic-minority voters above 10%. In Ealing Central Acton,

for example, the Conservatives only have to overturn a 0.5% Labour

majority, while 29.9% of the electorate is black,

Asian or mixed. Research by British Influence

in the last general election suggests the Conservatives

have a long way to go to win They found Labour were winning 50%

of the Asian vote It was even more marked among black

voters, Labour winning 67% compared We're joined now by Kulveer Ranger,

he was an adviser to former London mayor, Boris Johnson,

and is now director of Modern Welcome to the Daily Politics. This

isn't the first time, obviously, the Conservatives say they want to

appeal more to ethnic minority voters. Why has it not worked in the

past? It is not the Conservatives saying T I am a Conservative but we

are doing this from outside the party. Sure but it is to attract

ethnic minorities to the Conservative Party. . Momentum for

the Conservative Party. If we were half as successful, you would be

pleased. I think the Conservatives have tried to attract ethnic

minority voters. We have had generational migration in. Like

Windrush. And u began da. Maybe the Conservatives weren't seen as

welcoming, maybe they thought they didn't need those votes, generally

outside the inner cities where the large pockets of immigrants tended

to be based but now we have seen internal migration, due to these

communities doing well, increasing in affluence, but there is still a

cultural bind that holds these communities together. We look at the

black community. Maybe it is around churches, carnival, religion and so

the voting pattern can remain although it is getting softer. That

makes it sound like the Conservative Party has never been interested in

appealing until ethnic minority voters until they realise they need

to if they are going to continue winning elections? I think that's

right. So they don't care about ethnic minority voters, is that what

you are saying? There has been short-term engagement when it comes

to an electoral cycle. We need a long-term understanding to build the

trust, especially nowadays where the vote is becoming more transactional.

People are looking around more and looking at what is happening on the

Labour side and in terms of the referendum, and they want it feel

people are hearing their voice and I think in a diverse, modern Britain

that we have, which is a success in the international world, in terms of

the different cultures that we have, I think the Conservative Party must

take a longer, strategic view of how it listens to these communities. So

is the Conservative Party brand still damaged in the eyes of the

minorities which is what Sajid Javid said - remember Enoch Powell and his

speeches, when he was a Conservative politician. I think there is a

generation that will remember that but there is a lot more now, second,

third, fourth generation, who will not recall Enoch Powell and will not

understand what the Rivers of Blood meant but will think of modern

Conservatism through the eyes of what David Cameron has done, the

engagement he started, his 2020 agenda. See what does that mean?

What wr is the waying of saying that policy development can be informal

from what those communities feel and want to address. The problem for

Labour is taking people for granted. It has lost Scotland and lost a lot

of Labour voters in heartland north. It could do the same for ethnic

minority voters that for whatever reason, tend to vote Labour? I

agree, actually, Jo. I think Labour can the no just assume that people

who traditionally voted Labour will continue to do this. Neither can the

Conservatives, I don't think any political party can work on the

assumption you are tribal. You have to constantly reach out to voters

and ensure you relate to the issues that matter to them and you have to

constantly ensure you are listening to what they say. So, yes, we have

to work to earn every ethnic minority vote that we have

traditionally had and we must learn the lessons of Scotland and not

presume T the only thing I would say to you is - on the whole - Labour

has a good record to what we have done to support ethnic minorities.

My feel would be that the anti-immigration stance that was

there in the Brexit campaign, would not help you encourage immigrant

communities to actually come over to the Conservative Party. I mean, you

have a problem - and I think although you say Cameron was a

different place, I agree. I think actually the Brexiteer who is won in

the Conservative Party, give a bad message it people or out of

immigrant communities. Briefly, do you think now we should be lumping

ethnic minority groups together. I mean they are really very different

and would that not help the general political integration of groups of

people? Yes, I cringe at the word "minority" in some areas it is

diverse communities, and it is not the minority but I think there are

cultural binds that hold them together. I agree that the

referendum vote and the return of the phrase like "go home lackey"

something I hadn't heard since I was a child, is something we need to

tackle this, we have been working a few of us, we have been working on

this for quite a long time now. I have been in the Conservative Party

for 15 years and understand some of the challenges but this is really

looking at the future and following on the engagement agenda.

Now, the Oxford and Cambridge boat race is one of the highlights of the

One of the less well-known highlights - maybe it's just more

of a light - is the annual race along a somewhat shorter stretch

of the Thames between the House of Commons and the House of Lords.

Over there, they are used to sticking their oars in.

Now the Lords and the Commons are about to do it for real,

on the River Thames in the annual parliamentary boat race in aid

of a charity called the International Sports

I thought rowers were meant to be buffer than that.

There's also a hearty doze of nautical humour.

You have to be careful of having a crab.

That's the biggest threat in the race.

When you get your oar in the wrong spot.

Something I'm very passionate about and also it is for a good

While people may think it's frivolous, we do some good as well.

I heard when you fall in on the Thames, you have

I don't know about that but I wouldn't suggest

Right, got my BBC obligatory life jacket, so I can get closer

This event has been happening for ten years now.

The Commons have won five times and the Lords have won four

As the teams cross the starting line at Lambeth Bridge,

Both trying to avoid what happened three years ago,

Now I'm no Clare Balding but it looks like their Lordships aren't

It's a baking hot day here in London but our elective representatives

Does this prove the primacy of the Commons over the Lords?

I don't think it will settle that forever.

But I notice some of the members of the House of Lords

are actually former members of the House of Commons.

Ah, so as soon as the race is over, they are back to rocking

At least they are on dry land again. O

and one of the losing peers, the Liberal Democrat Brian Paddick.

Welcome. At least you won't sink, hopefully on this programme. Can any

of you row? Yes, we can row. We are not as good as some of our

colleagues who may have got a at Oxford but we got over the finish

line without sipging. What happened last time We got caught under the

bridge, the boat was swamped and went over. How do you feel on the

losing side? Galling, to be honest. For the last two years we have won

but one of our novices caught a crab, knocked the other person off

his seat behind him, who ended up in the lap of the one behind. On a

short course, it is very difficult to recover. It is not very long, is

it, the course, when I think back to the races I see in the Thames? We

have to row up to the start line. You are exhausted before you start.

Exactly. You poor things Do you do training? We do. The Lords had an

unfortune event, their boat was swamped on their training. We went

training in Putney. They had to come in two halves to fit on the trailer.

We boat we went inp hadn't been bolted together properly. I was told

it was all right. It got up to seat level and that was the end of that.

I hope you can all swim. Health and safety, with the welcome welcome, it

sounds terrifying. But for a good cause. We raised ?10,000 for three

charities. They are the London Youth Rowing the Matt Hamp son Trust Fund

and the Company of Watermen and Lightmen. How competitive is it? I

think there is a bit of rivalry amongst some of the participants

like me, for example, but the important thing is we have a lot of

fun and we raise a lot of money for charity. Is it difficult to recruit

people to the boat? It is sometimes. And some people who raced yesterday

it was their first time in the boat. First time in? Yes. And were there

eight MPs? Seven. Six actually. They had some ringers. We had eight

genuine Lords in boat Isn't it harder in the Lords to find people

who want to do this? Bearing in mind of background of a lot of

hereditaries and Tories, you find a larger proportion of people who have

rowed before than perhaps in the Commons. Maybe they have the

advantage. What about a women's team or mixed team? I have never heard of

it. I'm really upset. I have a loud voice, I'm short... You could be the

cox. Sign Margaret up, you know. Why isn't it mixed? In previous years we

have had some women. Kelly Tilhurst wanted to race. She injured her arm

so couldn't do it. And we had a blue at Oxford. Everybody went to Oxford

and Cambridge. Oh, they didn't do it at your university, LSC? I had never

rowed before I started this three years ago. I went to the wrong

school, obviously. What about, are you going to do it in the next few

years? Absolutely. Going down to Putney on a weekday morning when the

sun is shining, it is absolutely beautiful and I would really

encourage people to come down and have a go because it really is great

fun. And it was a beautiful day. It was. With the success of the

Olympics as well, rowing is becoming more of an interest sport. Something

else we are trying to promote. As Brian said, the view of the House of

Commons and House of Parliament from the river. Well an expansion of tug

of war and Parliamently dog of the year, and whatever else I have had

to do recently. Just time to reveal -

because we forgot to yesterday - that the answer to

Guess the Year was 1973.