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It has been very busy. We have swapped the exceptional September | :00:00. | :00:12. | |
heat for some exceptionally thundery downpours. | :00:13. | :00:38. | |
As Ukip prepares to unveil its new leader, Nigel Farage | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
delivers his final leader's speech - we'll bring you that live | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
from the UKIP conference in Bournemouth, and ask where the | :00:47. | :00:48. | |
It's achieved its central goal but there are defections | :00:49. | :00:57. | |
and disarray in Ukip in the wake of the Brexit vote - | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
one of Nigel Farage's former aides tells us why she's leaving | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
EU leaders meet in Slovakia to discuss Brexit and other | :01:04. | :01:10. | |
Theresa May won't be there, so what deal will the remaining 27 | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
members offer Britain outside the EU? | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
And Britain may not be part of it, and many assured us it | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
wasn't on the cards, but will the EU soon | :01:27. | :01:28. | |
All that in the next 90 minutes - and with us for the next hour, | :01:29. | :01:40. | |
First this morning, let's just hear what outgoing Ukip leader | :01:41. | :01:47. | |
Nigel Farage has been saying about you. | :01:48. | :01:55. | |
Genuinely, I don't know why he joined. | :01:56. | :01:57. | |
He doesn't seem to believe anything we stand for, it's rather odd. | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
He doesn't contribute to what we do as a national political party. | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
He just happens to be the MP for the most Eurosceptic | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
All the democratic data puts Clacton the number one jurisdiction... | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
Well, at the time it seemed like a good idea. | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
Nigel Farage on Sky News. He says he doesn't know why you joined Ukip. | :02:17. | :02:40. | |
Can you remember why you joined? I wanted to make sure we had a | :02:41. | :02:43. | |
referendum and I wanted to make sure that the group thinking in | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
Westminster on the Europe question was broken and as a consequence of | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
the by-election, I think that's one of the reasons, one of a number of | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
reasons, why we had a referendum. He says you must feel, quote, very | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
uncomfortable in Ukip. Do you feel uncomfortable in Ukip? There are | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
times when it seems as if you do. I feel uncomfortable with the nativist | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
sentiment of Assyrian posters, I felt uncomfortable with the shock | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
and awful tactics that were rejected by the electorate in the run-up to | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
the last general election but ultimately, I think Nigel find it | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
difficult, forgive me, forwarding my seat. I brought two thirds of our | :03:23. | :03:30. | |
Parliamentary election results. There are some in Ukip you find it | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
difficult to forgive me not just because I won but because I won by | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
not imitating that shock and awe. To Giteau that so singularly failed | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
elsewhere. But that's what the party, in many regards, was about. | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
You knew what you were getting into. I disagree. I think Ukip can and | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
should and has a tradition of being a libertarian, free-market party. | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
There is a cartel in Westminster. The established parties have rigged | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
the existing system. We could break that and I think we desperately do | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
need a new force in British politics that will break that. That could | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
still be Ukip. It is not just the groupthink surrounding Europe policy | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
that is holding the country back, there was groupthink over a whole | :04:12. | :04:14. | |
range of issues whether cartel of parties aren't giving us the change | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
this country needs. Ukip could be that force. Now that most people in | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
Westminster approach on leaving the European Union, a sensible control | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
policy on immigration, let's shift the groupthink on all those other | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
things like quantitative easing and monetary policy which are enriching | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
a few bankers at the expense of everyone else. The family court | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
system... There is a whole range of topics where change is desperately | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
needed. UR voice of one and there was no sense that Ukip could go down | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
that road. -- you are a voice of one. Is it not all over for you? I | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
think with a new leader we have the chance to press the reset button and | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
I think if we have a leader, and I've been calling for a change of | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
leadership for some time, if we do press the reset button and avoid | :05:03. | :05:05. | |
some infighting, it is a huge opportunity. Look at the broader | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
picture. The Conservative Party looks like it is a one party mini at | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
the moment. They only got 37% last election. The Liberal Democrats are | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
on holiday from history. We need a new leader, a fresh face and a | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
slightly more optimistic and cheerful tone. If we have that, the | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
sky is the limit it up very well. So we're expecting Nigel Farage | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
to come to his feet It's supposed to be his last speech | :05:31. | :05:33. | |
to Conference as party leader - but he has resigned twice before | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
only to make comebacks. He built Ukip from a minority, | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
fringe party to one that got 14% of the vote | :05:41. | :05:42. | |
at the last general election. Nigel Farage himself failed | :05:43. | :05:45. | |
to become an MP in 2010 and 2015. But the party now has 22 MEPs, | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
as well as one MP and a presence Perhaps their greatest achievement | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
was to secure a Leave vote in the EU Referendum on June 23rd, | :05:52. | :06:00. | |
which Mr Farage hailed But with that secured, | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
what's the future of the party? Diane James is the favourite | :06:07. | :06:15. | |
to take over as leader this afternoon, but some of the party's | :06:16. | :06:17. | |
biggest names - like Suzanne Evans and Steven Woolfe - | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
were unable to take part A row in the party in Wales | :06:21. | :06:22. | |
means their leader there - Nathan Gill - is now sitting | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
as an independent in the Assembly. And yesterday on this programme, | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
the party's former director, Steve Stanbury, announced his | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
defection to the Conservatives. We're joined now by former | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
Ukip Head of Media and aide to Nigel Farage Alex Phillips, | :06:43. | :06:45. | |
who has said today that she is leaving the party | :06:46. | :06:47. | |
and joining the Conservatives. Why? I think it's quite simple. | :06:48. | :06:58. | |
First of all, Ukip is itself cannibalising. It is eating itself | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
from the inside out. But when I saw Theresa May become Prime Minister | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
and start talking about selective education, and I've read about her | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
ascent to do exploratory drilling to look for shale gas, for energy | :07:11. | :07:13. | |
security, those things are key policies that I really believe in | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
and I think you can either be loyal to an organisation or loyalty or | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
convictions. So you think because of the direction that the May | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
Conservative government is going in now, there is not a need for Ukip? | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
My position is, for me on the things that I believe in, I don't need | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
Ukip. I've outgrown Ukip. There are 4 million people who voted Ukip in | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
the general election. May consider the alternative -- they are | :07:40. | :07:46. | |
considered the alternative to Labour. What Ukip does need to do is | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
rebrand, find distinct policy initiatives now to separate | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
themselves from the Conservatives. Why don't you stay to help them do | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
that? I've outgrown the party and when I look at what Theresa May is | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
saying and doing, they are the party of government. If I want those | :08:02. | :08:03. | |
things to get through Parliament, to actually come into effect, I need | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
the Conservatives to increase their majority in 2020 to help the passage | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
of those bills. What did Nigel Farage say when you told him you | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
were leaving? We've spoken about it a few times. I spoke to him on | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
Wednesday. He was disappointed, understandably. He said, why don't | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
you want to stay? Do you trust Theresa May? I gave him the reasons | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
I've just given you and we are good friends. You are still good friends? | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
I believe so, yeah. You've said the party is in, quote, a catastrophic | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
mess. That is hardly a legacy that your good friend can be proud of. I | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
don't want to point fingers at an individual. There are many | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
contributing factors. I think Douglas knows this very well. They | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
created a sense of animosity, this growing bitterness and jealousy. It | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
created an environment where conspiracy theories were running | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
amok and things were becoming from myth into legend. It got to the | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
stage, I feel, that it is almost irreparable. The next leader has got | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
a huge job at the hands. You think it may not have a future? That's not | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
for me to say. In November you said Ukip was here to stay. You clearly | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
don't think that now. I did believe that in November. I | :09:19. | :09:25. | |
believed that, really, up until around February or March, when I saw | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
quite how much the fallout was affecting the party, quite how deep | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
those divisions were and I thought, I just can't see a way back now. I | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
can't see a way for Ukip to unify and the final straw, really, was | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
Theresa May standing up and saying, you know, putting forward policies | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
that will appeal to a lot of Ukip voters. You describe Neil Hamilton | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
of Ukip in Wales as, quote, a Machiavellian Rasputin character. I | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
know, terminology am quite proud of. Why do you describe him like that? I | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
don't want to assert that he causes this or that or is plotting this or | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
that. I've seen e-mails and texts he's is sent. They are not positive | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
or constructive. He also is very often opportunistically at the side | :10:12. | :10:13. | |
of an explosion and I think there comes a time when you have to say, | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
we need to unify, this isn't about slinging mud at each other at the | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
press, although one could argue that is likely what I'm doing now. I | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
think one could argue that with veracity! But I've left! Don't you | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
late at night, on your Rome, worry that you joined the wrong club in | :10:32. | :10:41. | |
the end? I sleep very soundly at night, particularly after June 23. | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
You don't pay, what have I done? Alex Phillips is leaving, Stephen | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
Stanford resigned on this programme. The head of Ukip in Wales is now an | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
independent. Miss Phillips says that the senior figure in Wales is now a | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
Machiavellian Rasputin character. This is a kind of Ukip version of | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
the Bullingdon Club you joined, isn't it? I like and respect Alex | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
far too much to argue with that. She's obviously thought long and | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
hard about this. I think Alex is the person that any party should give an | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
arm and a leg to have as part of the team and it makes me very sad and it | :11:20. | :11:29. | |
is a huge loss. I still reckon that having a 1-party monopoly system in | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
Westminster, which is, in effect, what we've got, is not going to | :11:34. | :11:36. | |
change this country for the better. I understand that but if you listen | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
to Alex Phillips, it wouldn't suggest that Ukip, which is in, | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
quote, a catastrophic mess, is the antidote to Tory figure many. It's a | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
fixable problem. If we had party strategists, election strategist, | :11:52. | :11:53. | |
who knew how to count, that would be a good start it up if we are people | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
with experience of winning elections helping with messaging, that would | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
be a start, but this just shows that the next leader has an enormous task | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
of unifying the party. There are still some very talented people | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
there. They need to be brought together, not torn apart. Thank you | :12:10. | :12:11. | |
for being with us. My pleasure. So, in a few minutes Nigel Farage | :12:12. | :12:18. | |
will get to his feet to make his final | :12:19. | :12:21. | |
speech as party leader. First, let's take a look | :12:22. | :12:23. | |
at the highs and lows What people are saying | :12:24. | :12:25. | |
is "Get Britain out". I'm going to have a Black Sheep, | :12:26. | :12:27. | |
please. You have the charisma of a damp | :12:28. | :12:29. | |
rag, and the appearance Nobody in Europe had ever | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
heard of you. It's one of those grace of God | :12:33. | :12:42. | |
things that he is still alive. He used to ignore immigration, | :12:43. | :12:52. | |
now he lives on a reservation. I don't know that | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
leaflet Nick, but... Go back to the river, | :12:58. | :12:58. | |
because you're up one The sun has risen on an | :12:59. | :13:13. | |
independent United Kingdom. And just look at it, | :13:14. | :13:28. | |
even the weather's improved. I know that virtually none | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
of you have ever done a proper You, as a political project, | :13:35. | :13:36. | |
are in denial. Well, thank you, and good | :13:37. | :13:49. | |
evening Mississippi! It's time for me to stand aside | :13:50. | :14:09. | |
as leader of this party. I feel it's right that I should now | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
stand aside, as leader of Ukip. It's only when they're empty that | :14:15. | :14:22. | |
you do that, when it's The life and times of Nigel Farage. | :14:23. | :14:37. | |
We are waiting for him to get up on his feet at the conference in | :14:38. | :14:40. | |
Bournemouth where he will give his swansong and we will go there live | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
the moment we see that is happening. There is someone else speaking at | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
the moment. Douglas Carswell, if it hadn't been for Nigel Farage, would | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
Ukip have ever got 4 million votes in the general election, would it | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
have forced the Tories into a referendum? Credit where it's due. | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
He played a huge role in the referendum, not exclusively, many | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
people in the Conservative Party, many ministers who sacrifice their | :15:10. | :15:12. | |
ministerial careers that made sure we had a referendum. It was fear of | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
Nigel Farage, they feared him as a potent force. They feared he reached | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
traditional Tory voters. If you look at the polls immediately after the | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
Rochester and Clacton by-elections, one in five people at one time were | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
going to vote Ukip. The fact we run a campaign over the next six months | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
that lost us one in three-year supporters is another story. It | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
caused David Cameron to make commitments that wouldn't have | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
happened without Nigel and Ukip. Getting a referendum and winning | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
it... That was what got Ukip out of bed in the morning. That's now | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
happened. You talked earlier of a party that is free-market and | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
libertarian. That's not what they're voting for in the north of England, | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
the disillusioned working class. They are not voting for Fabius among | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
government knows best either. They are voting for a government that | :16:14. | :16:16. | |
would take notice of them. They regard the free market as something | :16:17. | :16:19. | |
that destroyed all that old industries. With respect, one of the | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
reasons the centre-left parties are in a crisis is precisely because the | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
conventional, Fabian ideas don't appeal to their base any more. We | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
knew this moment was coming. We knew this moment would come when we voted | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
to leave the European Union, when the establishment has accepted our | :16:38. | :16:48. | |
views on immigration. We spent the last six months working on a series | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
of policy papers, on a series of things besides immigration. Opening | :16:53. | :16:54. | |
up the family courts, energy market, taking on the banking cartel, | :16:55. | :16:56. | |
quantitative easing. A whole range of things a party like Ukip needs to | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
do to make sure we're no longer governed by this group thing, this | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
soggy way in Westminster that is running the country into the ground. | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
Your lowest hanging fruit is in the north of England. There is a lot of | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
data in the the Times this morning that suggests the 20 seats where | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
people regard themselves, in the north, regard themselves most as | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
English, not British, are also the 20 areas where the vote to Leave was | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
biggest of all. That is a politics of identity. They are looking for | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
someone to represent that identity. They don't think it is Labour any | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
more. They don't really give the Tories look in. They are not going | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
to give Ukip a look in either. With respect, I think they could. We had | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
a leader on the centre-right, Margaret Thatcher, who understood | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
people who to traditionally voted Labour, if you gave them the | :17:51. | :17:53. | |
opportunity to buy their council house, that would give them support | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
in the ballot box. We could do that. Giving people the ability to self | :17:59. | :18:01. | |
commission public services, allowing people to have the same choice over | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
their child's education that they have when they decide what their | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
child watches evening, giving people the ability to share... She lost | :18:10. | :18:16. | |
almost every major northern city. She was also never defeated by the | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
British people. It was under her the Conservatives increasingly became a | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
party of the South. That trend began under her. Yes, and I'm not drawing | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
an exact analogy. Because it doesn't work. If you are looking for a fresh | :18:31. | :18:37. | |
approach to build a coalition, from a traditional Labour base, she shows | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
you some ways, ideas as to how you can do that. Who do you speak for in | :18:43. | :18:49. | |
Ukip on this? Almost no one else of the names that are left takes this | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
line. You are a one-man band almost. Perhaps if we were talking about | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
them a bit more we would be on 20% of the polls rather than 10%. I took | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
a great deal about these things in Clacton. This approach manages to | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
secure support, obviously from centre-right voters, also former | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
Labour voters in Essex. I'm sure it could work across the country. It | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
must be a pretty good chance you are going to fight the 2020 election as | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
an independent? I'm planning on fighting as the Ukip candidate, | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
whenever the election may be. Who says it's going to be in 2020? We | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
don't know. Whenever it is. Never mind the date. It must be, given... | :19:35. | :19:43. | |
Ukip and you are now two ships passing in the night. The outgoing | :19:44. | :19:50. | |
leader of Ukip, rather like the outgoing leader of the Conservative | :19:51. | :19:53. | |
Party is perhaps a little critical of me. But it is not the former | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
leader of Ukip that really counts. It's the new leader and we are going | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
to hear you that new leader is and I look forward to working with them. | :20:02. | :20:04. | |
It is Diane James who is currently the favourite. Will you get on | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
better with her that Nigel Farage? I would give her 100% support. She | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
nearly won a by-election. She understands. | :20:14. | :20:37. | |
She has a compelling retail proposition. Simply complaining | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
about the state of the country is not sufficient to get you beyond the | :20:41. | :20:42. | |
base. You need something more. ? ?CAPNEXT all to let's go to take the | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
stage. He is being Mr Yuvraj is about to take the stage. He is being | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
introduced outgoing party outgoing Ukip of Ukip. He Farage to come up. | :20:50. | :20:57. | |
I Nigel Farage to come up. A rather younger they are showing a video | :20:58. | :20:59. | |
first, a rather younger looking Nigel | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
we are not going to show this we are not going to show this video we | :21:06. | :21:13. | |
don't do it for we don't do it the Tories on Lib Dems. Are you | :21:14. | :21:21. | |
convinced there will be, as the people voted for it? I think they're | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
well. I think there will be some attempt to try and frustrate and | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
subvert the referendum. The judiciary and House of Lords may try | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
it, we could even see the Humphrey in Whitehall try it, but I think | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
increasingly the momentum is such that that becomes impossible. Do you | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
have confidence in Theresa May, as the people voted for it? I think | :21:43. | :21:44. | |
they're well. I think there will be some attempt to try and frustrate | :21:45. | :21:47. | |
and subvert the referendum. The judiciary and House of Lords may try | :21:48. | :21:49. | |
it, we could even see the Humphrey in Whitehall try it, but I think | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
increasingly the momentum is such that that becomes impossible. Do you | :21:53. | :21:54. | |
have confidence in Theresa May that she was a reluctant, that she will | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
change your mind, that she would change committed to free trade and | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
getting us out of the EU. I hope that we make we have a government | :22:02. | :22:04. | |
committed to free trade and getting us out of the EU. I hope that we | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
make we get the trade aspect of Brexit that and free to conduct the | :22:09. | :22:15. | |
EU and free to. That is more important than anything else. We | :22:16. | :22:18. | |
still have access to the single market... What terms would be | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
acceptable for access? I think a deal can and will be done and I'm | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
very encouraged by some of the noises that are coming out, not so | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
much from the bureaucrats in Brussels but the Government since | :22:32. | :22:34. | |
agreements with the rest of the world. That is more important than | :22:35. | :22:36. | |
anything else. We still have access to the single market... What terms | :22:37. | :22:39. | |
would be acceptable for access? I think a deal can and will be done | :22:40. | :22:42. | |
and I'm very encouraged by some of the noises that are coming out, not | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
so much from the bureaucrats in Brussels | :22:46. | :22:57. | |
but the market. I don't see that is a downside. The difference is we | :22:58. | :23:04. | |
won't be a member of the single market, | :23:05. | :23:18. | |
because if you remember, in charge of the member states. The Italians | :23:19. | :23:21. | |
and Angela Merkel are making encouraging sounds and I am | :23:22. | :23:23. | |
confident Theresa May will deliver. We won't have access, we will have | :23:24. | :23:26. | |
access, but not access on the same terms and conditions as now, that | :23:27. | :23:28. | |
cannot happen, can it? British companies won't be bound by single | :23:29. | :23:31. | |
market rules unless they are selling to the single market. I don't see | :23:32. | :23:33. | |
that is a downside. The difference is we won't be a member of the | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
single market, because if you remember, the single market, subject | :23:37. | :23:38. | |
to rulings of the European Court. The terms cannot be as good as they | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
are at the moment? You have on your desk and iPad which was probably | :23:42. | :23:43. | |
assembled using California design in China. None of those countries is | :23:44. | :23:46. | |
part of the single market. We don't have a free trade agreement yet with | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
those countries. It is possible to buy and sell stuff from countries | :23:50. | :23:51. | |
without having trade deals. You have to make sure you get the right kind | :23:52. | :23:54. | |
of trade deal. If it is one in China. None of those countries is | :23:55. | :23:57. | |
part of the single market. We don't have a free trade agreement yet with | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
those countries. It is possible to buy and sell stuff from countries | :24:01. | :24:02. | |
without having trade deals. You have to make sure you get the right kind | :24:03. | :24:05. | |
of trade deal. If it is TTIP, it's not worth doing. Genuinely Liam Fox | :24:06. | :24:08. | |
is keen on that, I think we will see some spectacular gains in our | :24:09. | :24:10. | |
ability to trade globally. OK, we can go to Bournemouth now. Nigel | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
Farage is starting to the stage with the applause of the party | :24:14. | :24:15. | |
conference. Always popular with the rank and file of Ukip. Coming to | :24:16. | :24:18. | |
give his final speech, at least for now anyway. He has been in and out | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
of the leadership trade and Liam Fox is keen on that, I think we will see | :24:22. | :24:24. | |
some spectacular gains in our ability to trade globally. OK, we | :24:25. | :24:26. | |
can go to Bournemouth now. Nigel Farage is starting to the stage with | :24:27. | :24:28. | |
the applause of the party conference. Always popular with the | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
rank and file of Ukip. Coming to give his final speech, at least for | :24:32. | :24:34. | |
now anyway. He has been in and out of the leadership. As for now, a new | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
leader is being elected and will be announced this Nigel Farage gets to | :24:38. | :24:39. | |
Ukip conference to make his in Bournemouth at the Ukip conference | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
to make his closing remarks to the and the wider public. Seems to be | :24:43. | :24:44. | |
struggling a bit to and the wider public. Seems to be struggling a bit | :24:45. | :24:47. | |
to, such is the crash of the media to get of may have a party with only | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
one MP but he is a household he may have a party with only one MP but he | :24:52. | :24:54. | |
is a household name. Up leaders who have many party leaders who have had | :24:55. | :24:57. | |
a major influence on British politics in modern times. Let us | :24:58. | :25:00. | |
hear from MPs and he has had a major influence on British politics in | :25:01. | :25:02. | |
modern times. Let us hear from Nigel -- Nigel Farage as he makes his | :25:03. | :25:04. | |
swansong to the Ukip party conference. Wow. Thank you, thank | :25:05. | :25:13. | |
you, thank you. Well, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for that | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
fantastic welcome. We did it, we got our country back! And we would not | :25:20. | :25:26. | |
have done it without you, the People's Army of Ukip, and I'm very, | :25:27. | :25:33. | |
very proud of every single one of you. Thank you. APPLAUSE | :25:34. | :25:41. | |
The events of June 23 by three or 3:30am in the morning, when we | :25:42. | :25:50. | |
realised we would win it, felt to me like a fairy tale, frankly, that had | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
come true. Because this has been a very long journey indeed. 25 years | :25:55. | :26:04. | |
ago I joined the antifederalists league. Not many people can say | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
that, because there weren't many of us! Then in 1993 it became Ukip, and | :26:10. | :26:16. | |
I said to myself, it doesn't matter that all my friends and family and | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
business colleagues think I've gone mad, it doesn't matter to me that | :26:23. | :26:28. | |
history says it's impossible to get a new political party off the ground | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
in this country. To me it was very simple, all those years ago, it was | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
a matter of principle. I believed we should govern our own country. | :26:38. | :26:38. | |
APPLAUSE Six weeks, six weeks after the party | :26:39. | :26:52. | |
had been formed, the Conservative member of Parliament in Eastleigh | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
died overnight and there was a by-election. | :26:56. | :26:58. | |
I thought, in for a penny, in for a pound, and I volunteered and was the | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
first-ever adopted candidate of the UK Independence party. And I went | :27:04. | :27:10. | |
out there and I campaigned and I did my best, and I can tell you, on the | :27:11. | :27:17. | |
night of the result, by a crushing clear margin of 164 votes I beat the | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
late great screaming Lord such and didn't come last. | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
It was kind of difficult to get more than 1% in a by-election for us in | :27:29. | :27:36. | |
those days. But things changed in 1999 with the advent of proportional | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
representation for the European elections. No wonder thought we had | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
a chance. I always did. I will never forget that night, when three of us | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
were elected and Ukip was just beginning to get on, in real terms, | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
the political map. I will never forget that feeling, it was an | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
amazing feeling. I was interviewed, my first ever live interview was | :28:00. | :28:06. | |
from iridium. Of course, I had no media training or anything like | :28:07. | :28:12. | |
that. It was a live interview at 1:30am and Phil said to me, | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
congratulations Nigel, you said you are going to do it and you have. But | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
next week, he said, you will be off on Eurostar to the European | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
Parliament and you will find it never rending round of invitations | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
to lunches, it dinners, champagne receptions. Do you, he asked me, | :28:30. | :28:35. | |
think you will become corrupted by the lifestyle? I replied live on | :28:36. | :28:38. | |
air, no, I've always lived like that! APPLAUSE | :28:39. | :28:49. | |
At least it was true! We went on for year after year, | :28:50. | :29:00. | |
being part of Ukip, it's like a big Dipper ride, successes, dramatic | :29:01. | :29:06. | |
failures, all the things that happen within any political party. But we | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
first really got onto the political big-time early in 2013. Early in | :29:11. | :29:18. | |
2013, when suddenly the British public realised that what we had to | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
say about the taboo subject, the subject that you are not supposed to | :29:23. | :29:28. | |
discuss in polite company. The subject that new Labour made even | :29:29. | :29:34. | |
raising it you were committing a criminal offence. We were not | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
frightened to talk honestly and openly about the need for sensible | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
immigration into this country, and we talked about it. APPLAUSE | :29:45. | :29:51. | |
And we talked about and it rapidly became the number one issue in | :29:52. | :29:54. | |
British politics and nobody else would even touch the subject. | :29:55. | :29:57. | |
They couldn't touch the subject because they were all committed to | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
membership of European union, which meant the free movement of up to 500 | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
million people. The Eastleigh by-election, suddenly we got a big | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
score. We then went into the county elections of that year and I | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
remember, I was due in Millbank, number four Millbank, where all the | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
broadcasters are. I was due to do an interview about Ukip overnight | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
getting 23% of the national vote. As I got about 100 yards away from the | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
entrance, I saw a big throng of cameramen and photographers, and I | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
thought, crikey, something really big must have happened. LAUGHTER | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
And I was quite oblivious to just what we'd done. We've gone on from | :30:43. | :30:48. | |
there, we won the European elections in 2014. APPLAUSE | :30:49. | :30:56. | |
The first party that was an Labour or Tory to win a national election | :30:57. | :31:05. | |
since 1906. -- that was not Labour or Tory. Without us, there would | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
have been no referendum. APPLAUSE | :31:10. | :31:18. | |
Without you, without you and the people's army, there would have been | :31:19. | :31:30. | |
no campaign and together we have changed the course of British | :31:31. | :31:38. | |
history. And we've brought down a Prime Minister. | :31:39. | :31:44. | |
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE And we've got rid of the Chancellor. | :31:45. | :31:51. | |
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE I forget what I called him now! And | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
we've got rid of a European Commissioner. I said four years | :31:56. | :32:04. | |
ago... I predicted that Ukip would cause an earthquake in British | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
politics. Well, we have. We have. APPLAUSE | :32:10. | :32:18. | |
So the question is, what now? We have a new Prime Minister, who has | :32:19. | :32:29. | |
said that Brexit means Brexit. A new Prime Minister who, when she | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
started, looked to be very sure-footed on this issue. But I | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
have a feeling that things are beginning to change. When I saw her | :32:37. | :32:43. | |
at the G20 making her speech afterwards, she said that the | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
British people voted in the referendum for some control of | :32:48. | :32:55. | |
immigration from the European Union. No, Prime Minister. We voted to take | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
back control of our borders, simple as. | :33:00. | :33:01. | |
APPLAUSE And we have Cabinet ministers like | :33:02. | :33:15. | |
the Home Secretary still fighting the referendum, suggesting last | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
weekend that it might cost us 50 quid to get these are to go on a | :33:20. | :33:28. | |
booze to Calais. -- to get a visa. Half this cabinet did not only | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
failed to support the winning side in the referendum but it seems to me | :33:32. | :33:34. | |
they want to do their utmost to keep us part of the single market. There | :33:35. | :33:40. | |
is going to be a great political battle ahead and my concern would be | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
this - with Labour in the mess that it's in, and, boy, it is in a mess, | :33:45. | :33:51. | |
isn't it, a leadership election going on and yet there is no | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
conversation with the half of Labour voters or ball in the Midlands or | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
the north that voted for Brexit, but with Labour in trouble and the | :34:01. | :34:07. | |
Conservatives perhaps heading towards 2020 in a very comfortable | :34:08. | :34:10. | |
and easy position, the temptation on the Prime Minister will be to go for | :34:11. | :34:16. | |
a soft Brexit, as opposed to a hard Brexit. We can be very proud of the | :34:17. | :34:22. | |
fact that we won the war but we now must win the peace and the only | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
mechanism to put pressure on the Government to keep the debate live | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
and make sure that those 17.4 million people get what they voted | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
for is for Ukip to be healthy and for Ukip to be strong. | :34:38. | :34:38. | |
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE We will find out at 1:30pm who our | :34:39. | :34:57. | |
new bid is and I wish them - I'm guessing it's going to be a her but | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
we'll see - I wish them the very best of luck, and my job is not to | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
meddle. My job is not to try and influence. My job will be, if that | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
leader wants any help and advise them, make no mistake about it, I am | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
still foursquare behind this party and its aims. | :35:17. | :35:17. | |
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE Steve Crowther has stood beside me | :35:18. | :35:32. | |
for six years as chairman of the party and if you think being leader | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
of Ukip is difficult, you want to try being chairman of Ukip! And I | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
have to say that if, at some point in time, Ukip do get recognised for | :35:42. | :35:50. | |
their contribution to British political life - and bearing in mind | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
that the Liberal Democrats have over 100 life peers in the House of Lords | :35:55. | :36:00. | |
- if anything like that was to come out of life, then I think Steve | :36:01. | :36:06. | |
really ought to be top of our list for everything you've done for this | :36:07. | :36:09. | |
party. APPLAUSE | :36:10. | :36:17. | |
Steve talked about reform, he talked about change. Remember this - Ukip | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
was a grassroots political party. Ukip didn't have, in the 1990s, any | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
well-known national figures. It didn't even have until 1999 any | :36:28. | :36:33. | |
elected representatives. It was a grassroots party and we chose to | :36:34. | :36:36. | |
manage ourselves through National Executive Committee, including | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
volunteers. And that was fine then but we've moved on, haven't we? | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
We're now the third biggest political party in this country. We | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
have to change our management structures and we have to charge | :36:50. | :36:56. | |
because one of the problems of success is that it brings people | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
into the party who, perhaps, don't do it for altruistic aims for the | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
country or its people but perhaps are more motivated by their own | :37:07. | :37:10. | |
professional careers in politics. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE | :37:11. | :37:18. | |
So, there are things that needs to change. But in essence, in essence, | :37:19. | :37:25. | |
I know from that referendum campaign and since that this party is united. | :37:26. | :37:33. | |
I know this party is strong. You've only got a look at the by-elections | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
week after week in Kent to see that since the referendum, Ukip is | :37:39. | :37:41. | |
winning and there are millions of people out there who now identify as | :37:42. | :37:48. | |
Ukip voters. They believe in us, they trust us, they think we're | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
speaking up for them, and the fact that we've changed the centre of | :37:54. | :37:56. | |
gravity in British politics, the fact that many of the things that | :37:57. | :37:59. | |
we've campaigned on, whether it is grammar schools or foreign aid or | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
whatever it may be, the fact the others are talking about it doesn't | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
mean they're going to deliver it, and it is us that has to keep | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
pushing all of those agendas. Not only are there millions of people | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
out there that feel loyal to us but I don't think that the harvest of | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
votes that we could potentially get from the Labour Party has really | :38:23. | :38:24. | |
even started yet. In many ways, Jeremy Corbyn is a | :38:25. | :38:41. | |
very decent unprincipled man -- decent and principled. But he | :38:42. | :38:44. | |
doesn't believe in Britain. He doesn't even want to sing the | :38:45. | :38:47. | |
national anthem. He flunked it, didn't he, when it came to the | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
referendum? And I think we've got fantastic potential in Wales, the | :38:53. | :38:55. | |
Midlands and the North and elsewhere, in picking up Labour | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
votes. And believe me, if Brexit doesn't mean Brexit, then I think | :39:00. | :39:06. | |
there will be a very large number of Conservatives who will say, "There | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
is only one party that we can support", and I think we'll judge | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
whether Brexit means Brexit, for me, on three very simple measures. By | :39:16. | :39:22. | |
the time next general election comes along, will we have back our | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
territorial fishing waters around the coast the United Kingdom? | :39:26. | :39:33. | |
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE Will we be outside of the single | :39:34. | :39:42. | |
market, so that the 90 descent of our businesses that don't trade with | :39:43. | :39:45. | |
Europe don't get regulated by Europe? -- 90%. And above all, the | :39:46. | :39:53. | |
acid test of Brexit, the only time we will really know... You might | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
have seen this before, actually! The only time we will know that Brexit | :39:58. | :40:01. | |
means Brexit is when that has been put in the bin and we get back a | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
British passport! CHEERING AND APPLAUSE | :40:06. | :40:20. | |
And I have a feeling they're not going to deliver all of that, and | :40:21. | :40:29. | |
I'm certain they won't deliver it unless Ukip is strong and fighting | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
hard in every single constituency in this country. As I say, we won the | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
war, we must now win the peace. For my part, today closes the chapter on | :40:41. | :40:49. | |
what has been a pretty extraordinary few years. I honestly, looking back, | :40:50. | :40:56. | |
could never really have dreamt we would achieve what we have. I have | :40:57. | :41:04. | |
put absolutely all of me into this. APPLAUSE | :41:05. | :41:17. | |
I literally couldn't have worked any harder or couldn't have been more | :41:18. | :41:27. | |
determined. In a sense, I guess it's been my life's work to try to help | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
get this party to this point. I frankly don't think I can do any | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
more. I think, folks, I've done my bit. | :41:38. | :41:38. | |
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE And as I... But I'm not giving up on | :41:39. | :41:53. | |
politics completely. As I say, I will support the new leader. I'm | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
going to continue to lead a group in the European Parliament. | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE Sitting next to John Claude Juncker! | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
And making my constructive contributions. And I intend this | :42:10. | :42:20. | |
autumn to travel around some other European capitals to try and help | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
independence and democracy movement in those countries, to. | :42:26. | :42:37. | |
And who knows, I may even go back to the United States of America at some | :42:38. | :42:45. | |
point between now... So I'm going to be engaged in political life without | :42:46. | :42:51. | |
leading a political party and its going to leave me freer, less | :42:52. | :42:57. | |
constrained LAUGHTER | :42:58. | :43:03. | |
from now on, I'm really going to speak my mind. | :43:04. | :43:06. | |
APPLAUSE I said as I toured the country on | :43:07. | :43:21. | |
that wonderful open top bus and met thousands of you out there... I | :43:22. | :43:27. | |
said, "I want my country back" and now, folks, I want my life back. I | :43:28. | :43:34. | |
want to thank everybody for the massive contribution that so many | :43:35. | :43:37. | |
thousands of you have made to help me in doing this job, to helping us | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
change the course of British history. Thank you. | :43:43. | :43:45. | |
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE STUDIO: Well, we think the speech | :43:46. | :44:01. | |
has come to an. It was interesting, he didn't end on | :44:02. | :44:07. | |
a massive prorogation, it ended in quite a distinctive way. It was a | :44:08. | :44:15. | |
speech of Mr Farage's greatest hits. Winning the last European elections, | :44:16. | :44:24. | |
with more MEPs by far than any other party, getting nearly 4 million | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
votes in the general election, culminating, of course, in forcing | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
the Tories to have the referendum and then winning that referendum for | :44:33. | :44:38. | |
Brexit. He said Ukip still had a future and we can summarise that is | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
keeping the Government's feet to the fire to make sure it gets a hard | :44:43. | :44:48. | |
Brexit deal in the coming negotiations. "We've won the war, we | :44:49. | :44:56. | |
must now win the peace," said Mr Farage, and it was interesting that | :44:57. | :44:59. | |
he point of the party in the direction of what he called the | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
harvest of votes from the Labour Party that was in its grasp, I think | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
referring to the number of seats in the North of England where the | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
current Labour leadership is not that popular and where Ukip is | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
second in a number of these constituencies. That would seem to | :45:17. | :45:22. | |
be Mr Farage's target. It is his advice for the future leader. He | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
says he's still going to be around. He said to much laughter that he was | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
for once going to speak his mind in the future, where's I think most | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
Ukip party members will think that what they liked about Mr Farage was | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
that he did speak his mind, often in a way that was outside the | :45:40. | :45:44. | |
Westminster consensus and the Westminster bubble, as it is often | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
called. So that was Nigel Farage giving his final speech as leader to | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
the Ukip conference in Bournemouth. Quite a short speech. Other party | :45:55. | :45:59. | |
leaders could take notes on that! Douglas Carswell, your thoughts? | :46:00. | :46:04. | |
Credit where it's due, he pushed for a referendum. Credit where it's due. | :46:05. | :46:15. | |
How big media you think there is for Ukip, these are his words but my | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
words, but I think it sums up what you say, to keep the Government's | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
fee to the fire when it comes to the Brexit negotiations? It is | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
important, and we need to make sure, particularly in seats where Labour | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
MPs haven't reconciled themselves to the referendum outcome, we'd need to | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
be the force prepared to do that. There is a post-Brexit agenda for us | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
as well and I hope our new leader will see us develop a post Brexit | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
agenda on issues other than immigration as well. | :46:46. | :46:47. | |
Let's get further reaction now from the Ukip MEP Tim Aker - | :46:48. | :46:50. | |
Welcome to the programme. Now that your side has won the referendum, | :46:51. | :47:05. | |
what is the point of Ukip? Well, to keep the Government's feet to the | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
fire and make sure Brexit means Brexit. Only a few weeks ago Theresa | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
May said this result means we should have only some control over | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
immigration, when it was meant to be the Government at Westminster | :47:19. | :47:21. | |
deciding what the policy on immigration should be. If we are in | :47:22. | :47:26. | |
the position now where we can shape our future, post-referendum and make | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
sure we get the Brexit deal with the people wanted, gives Ukip are very | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
strong arm. How much video have the Government won't deliver on what's | :47:35. | :47:42. | |
being called a hard Brexit? I'm worried that the shambles of the | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
Labour Party will allow them to go soft on it, but I think there are | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
some genuine Eurosceptics that have been promoted that have to deliver | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
now. It's on their careers whether they do it or not, and their | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
reputation, and they will be judged by it. Other than that, is that | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
really the sole purpose of Ukip now, to try and keep the Government | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
honest when it comes to the Brexit negotiations? That is it? Still a | :48:09. | :48:16. | |
one note song? I think at the national level you could say that, | :48:17. | :48:19. | |
but we are seeing, since the referendum, Ukip wins at local | :48:20. | :48:25. | |
government level. In my constituency of Berwick we topped the poll for | :48:26. | :48:28. | |
the third year running and are getting more people coming to us | :48:29. | :48:31. | |
from all parties voting for us because of the help we have given | :48:32. | :48:37. | |
them. I think if Ukip branches on council groups take that message | :48:38. | :48:44. | |
out, we can help you and you with problems on things like housing, | :48:45. | :48:47. | |
like the Lib Dems used to do, that Douglas does very well in his | :48:48. | :48:53. | |
constituency constituency, then we can get more votes. Douglas Carswell | :48:54. | :49:00. | |
wants to turn you into a free libertarian society, how do you | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
think that will resonate in Labour constituencies in the North of | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
England? I think when Douglas talks about direct democracy on giving | :49:09. | :49:11. | |
people more choice over their lives, I don't think anyone could disagree | :49:12. | :49:15. | |
with that. I think we have to make sure the Conservatives don't go down | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
the routes they did where they tried to cut tax credits, where we're | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
going to get a lot of people complaining over this page to state | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
policy, which is basically a poor tax, a levy on council tenants, when | :49:30. | :49:32. | |
you think they are the people you would want to tax the least. It is | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
consistent with our policies to take the poorest out of income tax | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
altogether and I look forward to discussing the way forward with | :49:41. | :49:43. | |
Douglas and other colleagues. It doesn't sound like you are exactly | :49:44. | :49:46. | |
singing from the same hymn sheet. And it didn't sound Mr Mr Farage | :49:47. | :49:52. | |
cares whether Douglas Carswell stays in the party not, what is your view? | :49:53. | :49:59. | |
Douglas is an Essex MP. I went up to campaign for him and he came down | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
when I won my seat in a valley. It would be foolish to say there | :50:05. | :50:06. | |
haven't been disagreements, but you don't win the next war by fighting | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
the last one. We will get a new leader today. I want to see the | :50:12. | :50:14. | |
party come together, re-energise for the fight ahead. Our viewers will | :50:15. | :50:20. | |
have noticed, and I'm sure Douglas Carswell noticed as well, you didn't | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
answer my question by saying, of course we regard Mr Carswell as an | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
integral part of the future of Ukip and want him to stay. Why didn't you | :50:30. | :50:36. | |
say that? I didn't say that because it's a | :50:37. | :50:42. | |
given. He is the Ukip MP and I look forward to sitting next him in the | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
House of Commons after the next election. Well said! Are you in | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
danger of blowing an historic opportunity here? Nigel Farage in | :50:53. | :50:58. | |
his speech referred to the harvest of Labour votes that was within | :50:59. | :51:04. | |
Ukip's grasp, referring most of all, I think, to the North of England, | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
where the greatest inroads could be made. And yet we've had your former | :51:09. | :51:14. | |
head of media on this programme this morning saying you are in a | :51:15. | :51:19. | |
catastrophic mess. She's defected. The former party director has | :51:20. | :51:25. | |
defected. You have a minor civil war going on in Wales. Your inability to | :51:26. | :51:33. | |
get your act together, you could blow it, couldn't you? | :51:34. | :51:39. | |
All parties have this, and is very sad to see Alex go. She is very | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
talented and I wish all the best. She is welcome back, if she wants to | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
return at any time in the future. All parties have this. It's been | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
very disappointing to see. On the upside, we are winning by-elections, | :51:53. | :51:57. | |
we won one in Maidstone and won a council seat in Basildon before the | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
referendum. There are ups as well as downs. All parties get this, it is | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
unfortunate, but I hope this conference will bring everyone | :52:07. | :52:09. | |
together, that we can look at the big opportunities ahead for us, | :52:10. | :52:13. | |
unite behind a new leader and make those inroads. It is not just in | :52:14. | :52:18. | |
Labour seats. Brexit managed to get people who haven't voted in any | :52:19. | :52:21. | |
election before to the ballot box, they registered and voted and know | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
where their polling station is. I'm sure we can get more MPs that the | :52:26. | :52:29. | |
next election. Stick with us if you will. I want us to go to our | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
reporter in Bournemouth because she has some activists who were | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
listening to this speech. We will see what they made of and then come | :52:39. | :52:39. | |
back to you. It was quite an emotional moment. It | :52:40. | :52:48. | |
brought a bit of a tear to your eye, didn't it, that speech? It certainly | :52:49. | :52:53. | |
did. Nigel will be a hard act to follow. We are sorry he's going, | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
really. Is he really going, that is the big question, do you think he's | :52:59. | :53:02. | |
really going? No. You are not the first person to say that to me. Why | :53:03. | :53:08. | |
not? He has spent so much time in politics, you can't just walk away | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
from it. He has too much charisma. It is the end of an era as far as | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
Ukip is concerned. Are you a bit worried? We will find out this | :53:18. | :53:20. | |
afternoon on your next leader is, well that worry you? There is nobody | :53:21. | :53:26. | |
in Conservatives or Labour who can stand up to Nigel's share presence. | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
Whoever the new leader is doesn't have a chance. All we can do is | :53:31. | :53:34. | |
support whoever it is an move on from here. I will leave you to it | :53:35. | :53:40. | |
and work my way through the crowd. We have Bill Etheridge, one of the | :53:41. | :53:43. | |
candidates for leadership. What did you make of the speech? Typical | :53:44. | :53:49. | |
Nigel, great. Lots of laughs and passion and a tear in the eye at the | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
end. His voice broke a bit at the end? He has been a great leader for | :53:54. | :53:59. | |
us and achieved wonderful things. We find out in an hour or so who the | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
next leader is, it could be you. How would you come out after a speech by | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
that? It's like being the best man after a good father of the bride | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
speech? You can never compete with Nigel, it's impossible. All I intend | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
to do is thank everyone and outline the positive future and policies. | :54:17. | :54:22. | |
New policies, economics. We for one battle and won it, let's move onto | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
the next. We are a proper political blood, not just about the EU. We | :54:27. | :54:32. | |
will see. -- proper political party. Over here we have some more people | :54:33. | :54:35. | |
who want to tell me what they thought of Nigel Farage's speech. | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
His speech was fantastic but in my opinion I don't think you should be | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
leaving, I think you should still be on stage and forcing the issue. We | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
only halfway there. Lots of people have been telling me that over the | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
course of the conference, even this morning. Is he going? At the moment | :54:52. | :54:57. | |
we are under the impression the years. But let's hope he isn't! He | :54:58. | :55:02. | |
has done it before. Let's hope he does it again because we need him. | :55:03. | :55:09. | |
The words that Brexit means Brexit by Theresa May are being watered | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
down day by day and the fight is not over. We won the battle but haven't | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
got the piece. It is a bit like Libya and Iraq. You can't just go in | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
there and win the war, you have to make sure you have a plan B | :55:22. | :55:24. | |
afterwards. I think we have a long way to go to get the Brexit 17 | :55:25. | :55:30. | |
million people voted for. There wasn't a plan B in Iraq. The view of | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
some of the activists and delegates, they don't think Nigel Farage is | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
necessarily going anywhere, at least not without making a comeback at | :55:40. | :55:43. | |
some stage. STUDIO: On the assumption he is going, in an hour | :55:44. | :55:46. | |
we will know who the new leader will be, who is it going to be? I think | :55:47. | :55:51. | |
the smart money would be an Diane James. The best-known name here | :55:52. | :55:55. | |
within Ukip, the best-known person who would be ready to take on. Even | :55:56. | :56:01. | |
talking to tell Etheridge, I think essentially that's what even some of | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
the candidates here think. There is a suggestion Lisa Duffy, another of | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
the candidates, she might make it a bit tough for Diane James. She is | :56:11. | :56:16. | |
the candidate that the likes Suzanne Evans was backing, on a slightly | :56:17. | :56:22. | |
different camp to Nigel Farage. The camp, essentially, that's not the | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
Nigel Farage royalists. A suggestion she may have done well enough. Not | :56:28. | :56:31. | |
sure, to be honest. Diane James didn't go to any of the hustings. | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
There is a sense among the delegates she could have made a bit more than | :56:36. | :56:38. | |
ever but she ran her own campaign and did travel the country and do | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
her own speeches and campaigning. As I say, we've talked a lot about the | :56:44. | :56:48. | |
divisions within his party. Those are essentially the two front | :56:49. | :56:52. | |
runners but I think it will be Diane James. Thank you. The Ukip faithful | :56:53. | :57:00. | |
in Bournemouth. Let me check we still have Tim Aker, yes, we do. You | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
are a supporter of Diane James. The favourite to win. But if some of the | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
lowest potential hanging fruit for you are among working-class | :57:11. | :57:16. | |
disillusioned Labour voters in the north, is Diane James not a little | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
bit to Home Counties to appeal to the North, to southern? Well... We | :57:22. | :57:28. | |
have a former city trader who is popular in the north as he is in the | :57:29. | :57:34. | |
south that just left as the leader. When people see Diane James they get | :57:35. | :57:37. | |
to know her and know her agenda, anywhere is open to Ukip now. We | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
couldn't see her. A great team of candidates. We didn't get to see her | :57:43. | :57:48. | |
because my understanding is she didn't do hustings or television | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
appearances in this leadership campaign, why is that? She came to | :57:53. | :57:58. | |
Thurrock and spoke to about 80 members, which is more than some of | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
the hustings where getting. She didn't do the dates... I don't | :58:04. | :58:10. | |
believe so. Why? -- debates. I personally think if I had been in | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
her position I would have gone to some of them. But voting is closed, | :58:15. | :58:20. | |
people have made up her mind and if people didn't want to vote for a | :58:21. | :58:22. | |
because she didn't turn up, they won't have voted for her. We will | :58:23. | :58:26. | |
know how that goes with the result in half an hour's time. One of the | :58:27. | :58:31. | |
benefits of a leadership campaign is those who are not widely known in | :58:32. | :58:36. | |
the country become more widely known, because there are lots of | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
debates, TV cameras are fair, the radio is there, you get big | :58:41. | :58:51. | |
audiences. Most people in Britain hadn't heard of Owen Smith until the | :58:52. | :58:54. | |
Labour leadership contest, a lot more people know him now. The same | :58:55. | :58:56. | |
could have been said for Diane James. Not nearly as well-known as | :58:57. | :58:59. | |
Nigel Farage but she chose, for the wider public, to remain invisible | :59:00. | :59:02. | |
during the campaign. It seems a strange strategy for someone who | :59:03. | :59:10. | |
wants to put Ukip further the map. She was meeting members, holding | :59:11. | :59:14. | |
events where members were free to go to and talking to the electorate, | :59:15. | :59:18. | |
which were Ukip members. If she does win, you will be seeing a lot more | :59:19. | :59:22. | |
of her. When the public know her, get to see her platform and | :59:23. | :59:26. | |
priorities, I think they will seek Ukip will go from a 13% party to 23% | :59:27. | :59:33. | |
party, especially if Theresa May doesn't give us the Brexit 17.4 | :59:34. | :59:38. | |
million people voted for. Tim Aker in Bournemouth, thank you for | :59:39. | :59:42. | |
joining us. Douglas Carswell, we learn that Ukip's largest donor is | :59:43. | :59:47. | |
setting up a new campaign group. Describing it as a right-wing | :59:48. | :59:56. | |
momentum, describing the grass roots movement of the Labour left, is a | :59:57. | :00:00. | |
good thing? I'm not sure momentum is the model to follow. They have | :00:01. | :00:05. | |
created a situation where some very shrill and certain people in social | :00:06. | :00:09. | |
media to assert things that take the party, in the case of the Labour | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
Party, in a direction which makes it less appealing to swing voters. But | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
if a private individual member of the party wants to set up an | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
initiative, great, but ultimately if you are part of the party you have | :00:23. | :00:23. | |
to support the party. If he's talking about a right wing | :00:24. | :00:32. | |
Momentum, I would suggest encapsulated in that... It is a | :00:33. | :00:39. | |
shorthand, I understand... It certainly, I would suggest, doesn't | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
imply support for the direction that you would like to take Ukip. I'm in | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
favour of the direction of winning over voters and having won voters in | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
the past two Parliamentary elections as the Ukip candidate, I would | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
suggest that, actually, shrill certainty is not the way forward. If | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
you look at what the Labour Momentum movement is doing, it is making the | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
Labour Party less appealing and less able to win seats. If we were to | :01:05. | :01:10. | |
imitate that, we would be imitating all that is bad about the left. We | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
should be offering something very, very different and that is offering | :01:14. | :01:19. | |
people the alternative to the shrill certainty is that party activists | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
sometimes espouse. Nathan Gill, who was, I think, your leader in Wales, | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
though things change so much with Ukip it is hard to Kubot, who I | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
think is now an independent in the Welsh Assembly, he said there needs | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
to be, quote, a bloodbath in Ukip after this leadership election, that | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
there are who have senior positions who are, quote, not fit to run a | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
village fete. I'm not sure it is helpful to talk about a bloodbath. | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
We certainly need reform, we need to change. It would be helped lift we | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
had party strategists who knew how to count, it would be helpful if we | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
have systems in place... Who has not been able to count? Look at our | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
success in the last general election. Our strategy was not | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
entirely successful. It is helpful, I think, if you have a party where | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
the structures on the discipline in the organisation are bigger than any | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
one person. That allows you to have rigour and consistency. Many | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
occasions during the EU referendum, the by-elections, the General | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
Election, I was struck by the central importance of data. Politics | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
isn't about just winging it, about deciding what appeals to you, it is | :02:31. | :02:33. | |
about looking at hard data and looking at the maths and seeing | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
where it is you need to put your message and your resources, and | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
that's something that many of the big parties are very bad at doing. | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
That's what they are doing in America at the moment. They are very | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
professional at that. I'd like to think we did a bit of that in | :02:52. | :02:54. | |
Clacton and I like to think that you can do this and it is a much more | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
effective way of winning votes than just making noise on Facebook. Do | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
you think, if it is Diane James, will you get on better with her than | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
Nigel Farage? Very much so. She came to campaign in the election. The | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
thing I have in common with is, both of us have stood in by-elections, I | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
won, she lost, but we understand what needs to be done. Thanks for | :03:16. | :03:17. | |
with us. And there's full coverage | :03:18. | :03:19. | |
of today's Ukip conference, including the result | :03:20. | :03:21. | |
of their leadership election at 1.30 this afternoon, | :03:22. | :03:22. | |
on BBC Parliament. Coming up in a moment, | :03:23. | :03:24. | |
it's our regular look at what's been For now, it's time to say goodbye | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
to Douglas Carswell. So, for the next half an hour we're | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
going to be focussing on Europe. We'll be discussing the EU's | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
position on Brexit negotiations, proposals for EU armed forces | :03:39. | :03:40. | |
and whether the Commission's plan for free Wi-Fi can help | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
re-invigorate the European Union. First, though, here's our guide | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
to the latest from Europe We learned that the EU's auditors | :03:50. | :03:51. | |
opposed Romania and Bulgaria joining the EU in 2006, over concerns | :03:52. | :04:03. | |
they couldn't spend funds properly. The two countries joined | :04:04. | :04:13. | |
anyway in 2007. It's Budapest versus | :04:14. | :04:15. | |
the Grand Duchy, as the Foreign Minister of Luxembourg suggested | :04:16. | :04:17. | |
Hungary should be suspended, maybe even thrown out | :04:18. | :04:19. | |
of the union, for failing European Commission President | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
Jean-Claude Juncker used his State of the Union Address to warn that | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
Brexit presented an existential crisis to the EU, but he had big | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
ideas too, like free EU wide file -- Wi-Fi for every city | :04:35. | :04:45. | |
and village by 2020. And goodbye Frontex, | :04:46. | :04:47. | |
hello European Border Member states have approved | :04:48. | :04:49. | |
the creation of a new 1500 strong force, which will take | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
to the seas in October. And with us for the next 30 | :04:54. | :05:01. | |
minutes, I've been joined by the Conservative MEP | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
Jacqueline Foster and Let's take a look at one of those | :05:05. | :05:06. | |
stories in more detail - that's plans by the European | :05:07. | :05:13. | |
Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker for free | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
Wi-Fi in every village, Is it too cynical just to look at | :05:20. | :05:33. | |
that as a gimmick? Not at all because I think it was a gimmick. We | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
have somebody who is in charge of the European Commission standing up | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
doing a state of the union address. We have challenges on immigration, | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
we have member states with problems, banking problems, in Italy, | :05:47. | :05:53. | |
unemployment. A key player has left the European Union, ie we are | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
leaving, the UK, and then partway through the speech he starts talking | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
about Wi-Fi and, ultimately, it's all about more Europe and I just | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
found it absolutely astonishing, so it's not at all cynical. What powers | :06:07. | :06:13. | |
does the European Commission have to deliver free Wi-Fi to every village | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
in Europe? They don't have the power. Very few, if any. It would be | :06:20. | :06:26. | |
nice if we could have it! It would be nice. I don't think we're going | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
to get free Wi-Fi in every public park in 20 countries for 120 million | :06:31. | :06:37. | |
euros. 27 countries now! Or even five countries, to be honest, for | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
that kind of money. Clearly, it was a bit of a gimmick, although, to be | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
fair, the speech is kind of the equivalent of a party conference | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
speech... So not serious? It's a bit of a laundry list, it's got to have | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
something for everybody. He did talk about serious themes and he also | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
threw in a gimmick. But I've got to say, coming hard on the heels of the | :07:02. | :07:08. | |
more serious and equally unedifying climb-down on roaming charges from | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
last week, it seemed like an odd place for them to go. Well that | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
seems... One of the things we heard during the referendum, one of the | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
benefits of the EU, would be the roaming charges, which used to be | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
huge. But I saw earlier this week that apparently Mr Juncker, because | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
he hadn't been properly consulted other papers have come to him | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
properly, that these plans to improve the roaming charges have | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
been sidelined. Is that right? Possibly. I rest my case. I've been | :07:44. | :07:50. | |
there for an awfully long time, since 1999 and, fine, so a committee | :07:51. | :07:53. | |
looked at roaming charges and how expensive they were. Then there was | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
the consideration if it was OK for us if we were travelling that our | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
mobiles were a bit cheaper, but were the citizens of the United Kingdom | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
then paying for that, because their costs might go up? So, really, if I | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
may just bring this back, whether it was roaming charges or Wi-Fi, this | :08:13. | :08:19. | |
was a state of the union speech, with huge issues, huge pressures on | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
security, defence, immigration, and he's talking about this. It was | :08:24. | :08:30. | |
absolutely ludicrous and if we had the President of the United States | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
doing a state of the union, or a British Prime Minister doing the | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
state of the United Kingdom or another leader in another country, I | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
doubt whether any of them would be talking about Wi-Fi. I rest my case | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
on that one. To be fair, though, I remember one of, or probably more | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
than one of Tony Blair's at the conference speeches where he | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
couldn't do any wrong was the most popular man of the country and every | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
speech he gave was at Epoque making triumph and they were always | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
littered with a complete of every school and an information | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
superhighway, broadband infrastructure. But that was a party | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
conference. Was completely different. I think they are quite | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
similar. We shall see. I guess neither of you are going to take on | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
a bet of 100 quid that we won't have free Wi-Fi in 2020. | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
So, the leaders of EU member states are meeting | :09:25. | :09:26. | |
All the leaders, that is, except Theresa May. | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
It's the first summit to exclude the UK since June's referendum | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
and will see the ongoing EU members begin to consider what the Union | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
will look like after the United Kingdom leaves. | :09:37. | :09:47. | |
Clearly there's much to get through before that | :09:48. | :09:49. | |
happens, so what do we know about the EU's negotiating position? | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
Well, the European Commission has appointed former French | :09:55. | :09:56. | |
commissioner Michel Barnier as its chief negotiator. | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
The European Parliament has its own negotiator, too - | :10:02. | :10:03. | |
former Belgian PM and EU federalist Guy Verhofstadt. | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
EU commission president Jean-Claude Juncker | :10:09. | :10:10. | |
told MEPs on Wednesday that the UK cannot be part of the single market | :10:11. | :10:18. | |
He also said that he wanted Brexit talks to start | :10:19. | :10:21. | |
But former EU Council President Herman Van Rompuy told the BBC that | :10:22. | :10:28. | |
substantive negotiations are unlikely to start | :10:29. | :10:29. | |
until after the German elections next year. | :10:30. | :10:40. | |
They are not until September next year. | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
Let's talk to our Europe correspondent Damian Grammaticus, | :10:44. | :10:45. | |
who is at that meeting in Bratislava. | :10:46. | :10:47. | |
The purpose of this meeting originally was to begin to sketch | :10:48. | :10:55. | |
out what the EU 27's negotiation position would be but I get the | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
impression there are so many other problems crowding in on the EU at | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
the moment that that is not the only subject being discussed there. | :11:06. | :11:12. | |
You're right, it is not really the subject being discussed at all. They | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
are going to discuss the political fallout, if you like, from the | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
Brexit wrote but what they'd always said, actually, was that this summit | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
was going to be about... Not about Brexit itself but about charting a | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
way forward for the EU after Brexit, so this was very clearly meant to be | :11:33. | :11:39. | |
meant as a signal that 27 nations without the UK here, without a | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
British Prime Minister, are meeting around the table, setting the agenda | :11:44. | :11:46. | |
for the future, and that's going to be broad brush strokes but very | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
clearly what they want to do is to try to address the underlying issues | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
that led to Brexit, so in the broadest possible level, what they | :11:59. | :12:01. | |
mean by that is that they see a threat from this rising tide of euro | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
scepticism and they want to reinvigorate the EU, try to | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
reconnect with European people. At around that table now of 27, with | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
Britain not being there, it would be fair to say that there are deep | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
divisions among the 27. There is a group of East Europeans who take a | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
very different view from what you might call the club Med group which, | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
in turn, is very different from the Nordic and Northern group, which | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
sometimes can include France or France may sometimes be in the Club | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
Med group, even to such a stage that we've just had this week the | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
Luxembourg Foreign Minister call for the expulsion of Hungary. So even | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
without us, they're not that united, are they? No, and the leaders | :12:47. | :12:52. | |
themselves know this. They themselves have all been morphing | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
into their castle saying that what they have to do is show a message of | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
unity to try to find the areas they agree on and interesting you | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
mentioned Oxenberg - the Luxembourg Prime Minister walking in today | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
said, we need to remember that we agree on 90% of things and there is | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
10% are things we don't agree. He was dismissing the idea that there | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
is this crisis in the EU. He was saying, keep an eye on the bigger | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
picture, on the fact that in many areas the EU delivers for people but | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
in the areas that matter in some ways at the minute, whether crises | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
are focused, migration and border security, economic issues, growth | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
and jobs, there are very different views, as you say, between the more | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
austerity minded North and the southern European countries and also | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
between the East, who want more controls on migration and are not | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
willing to take refugee quotas and the bigger countries in the west | :13:51. | :13:53. | |
that want them. All sorts of divisions. I must say the castle | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
looks brilliant behind you! We'll let you get on and find out what's | :14:00. | :14:01. | |
happening in the rooms there. We're joined now by the Ukip | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
MEP William Dartmouth. He is part of our discussion. There | :14:06. | :14:17. | |
he is. Good day! It looks like a lovely day down in Bournemouth. | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
Stick with us. It is a beautiful day. You ought to be here! They | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
don't let me out very often these days, I'm afraid! Let me ask you, is | :14:27. | :14:32. | |
it not, Sion Simon, going to take a long time? The British Government is | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
just at the foothills of what its negotiating position will be. We | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
still have no idea. And the Europeans may actually be further | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
behind, that they have no idea what their negotiating position will be. | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
I've never come across anything in my... I'm 47 and I've never seen | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
anything in which everybody has got so little idea, still, on getting on | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
for three months of the referendum. I don't think the British Government | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
has got the slightest idea what it's doing, neither the Prime Minister | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
nor any of the secretaries of State has said anything coherent about | :15:07. | :15:09. | |
Brexit at all and I don't think it's any different at all in the | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
commission or the other member states. Everyone I talk to, it is | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
complete chaos and blackness and confusion. It has really see maybe | :15:18. | :15:20. | |
wonder what it used to be like in the war and I've concluded that | :15:21. | :15:23. | |
there was probably a much greater sense of purpose and understanding | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
what we were doing actually in wartime than this Brexit. | :15:28. | :15:33. | |
William Dartmouth, are you concerned about the lack of clarity? How long | :15:34. | :15:40. | |
can this continue? The principal reason there is a lack of clarity is | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
Cameron was born government irresponsibly made no preparations | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
at all. -- Osborne but hopefully one day I get some coverage on the BBC | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
for what I've written. What is necessary if there should be a | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
supremacy of English law, controlling our borders and a return | :16:02. | :16:08. | |
of fishing and no contributions to the European Union budget. As an | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
absolute minimum. Otherwise it isn't a proper Brexit at all, which people | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
voted for. Is that English law going to be supreme in Scotland as well? I | :16:18. | :16:24. | |
think we can have an interesting discussion about the difference | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
between Scots and English law. I think the Scots would want their law | :16:29. | :16:35. | |
to prevail over European law. You may have to go back and rewrite that | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
bit of your paper, before we talk about it any further, to get it | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
right. At the moment we seem to be in a situation where, particularly | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
on the European side, there is a kind of sticking out... Not a | :16:51. | :16:53. | |
bargaining position, but a bargaining attitude. Michel Barnier, | :16:54. | :17:02. | |
a well-known anti-Brit is appointed. Guy Verhofstadt, who loves to tangle | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
with the Brits as well, and Mr Jean-Claude Younger. Eyes and | :17:09. | :17:11. | |
suggest all of this is pretty meaningless because it is the | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
Council of ministers tasked with the negotiations, and above all that | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
means Mr Tusk and Angela Merkel. I think that is a fair point to make. | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
I think what is particularly ridiculous about all of this is the | :17:28. | :17:35. | |
voters have spoken. Whether other member states, countries, like it or | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
not, that was the decision taken by the UK. I do not believe it's in the | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
interests of the other member states to end up having a virtual civil war | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
with the UK, determining what the outcomes should be from the | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
negotiation. I feel slightly reassured in terms of Donald Tusk | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
and their meeting today. I think genuinely the other member states, | :17:59. | :18:01. | |
albeit with different pressures, want to try and get some decent | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
conclusions. But when you look at the message, and if we put | :18:06. | :18:12. | |
Jean-Claude Juncker one side. As you said, Michel Barnier to be the | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
negotiator from the commission's side. And Guy Verhofstadt, who can't | :18:17. | :18:27. | |
stand us, who can't stand us even lessons are conservative political | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
group that wiped out in the last European election. Guy Verhofstadt, | :18:31. | :18:37. | |
it's like putting an arsonist in charge of a firework factory. If we | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
want to be grown up on this we need a good, sensible, well constructive | :18:42. | :18:44. | |
debate from all parties. There is a lot riding on this from our partners | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
as well. Let me go back to William Dartmouth in Bournemouth. Is there | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
not a danger, from your point of view, at the moment there is clearly | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
a vacuum, a vacuum on the British side and the European side as well. | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
Let's stick to the British side. The longer you allow a vacuum to | :19:03. | :19:08. | |
persist, isn't there a danger that forces start to fill it over which | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
you have no control and the Government has no control, and that | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
people begin to get disillusioned and wonder, is it going to happen or | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
isn't it going to happen? How long can we go on like this? That is | :19:21. | :19:27. | |
actually a very perceptive question. First of all, the appointment of | :19:28. | :19:35. | |
Michel Barnier and Guy Verhofstadt is an attempt to fill in that vacuum | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
and not very helpful at all. It is posturing for position that doesn't | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
belong in a serious way. The fact of the matter is that because no | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
preparations were made, it is in one sense reasonable that a little bit | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
of time is taken. But it shouldn't really be so very much longer. I | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
must make the point that we should commit to the UK leaving the single | :19:58. | :20:04. | |
market, because as long as we stay in the single market, the 85% or | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
more of the British economy, which doesn't export to the EU countries, | :20:09. | :20:15. | |
is nonetheless bound by the whole panoply of EU regulation. We will | :20:16. | :20:23. | |
leave it there. I think that is very important it is clearly understood. | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
You have made it clear. No doubt that will be part of the debate if | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
and when the Government finally tells us what its bargaining | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
position is going to be as talks get underway. William Dartmouth in | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
Bournemouth, thank you. It's got its own court, | :20:43. | :20:44. | |
civil service and parliament - With the UK's imminent departure, | :20:45. | :20:46. | |
there's a renewed push for further integration amongst | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
the remaining members - including proposals | :20:52. | :20:52. | |
for EU armed forces. The prospect of an EU | :20:53. | :20:54. | |
army was a hot topic You are being asked to make | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
a decision that is irreversible. We wake up on Friday, | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
we don't like it and we're They lied about the European army, | :21:07. | :21:08. | |
because we've got a veto over that. Our European partners were not | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
going to change course. They're not changing | :21:14. | :21:15. | |
course on anything. They're still progressing | :21:16. | :21:17. | |
with the European army plans. Everything suggests ever closer | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
union is still on the cards. The UK always stood in the way | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
of greater military cooperation within the EU but June's referendum | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
result has removed a major obstacle, clearing the way for European | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
leaders keen on more military integration to pursue | :21:33. | :21:34. | |
their ambitions. TRANSLATION: We should work | :21:35. | :21:41. | |
towards a common military force and this should be | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
in complement with Nato. Forces from separate member states | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
are already working together. Operation Sophia tackling people | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
smuggling in the Mediterranean Those backing more integration argue | :21:56. | :21:56. | |
it would be more effective against threats both | :21:57. | :22:03. | |
within and beyond EU borders. I think the first challenge we face | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
is terrorism but it's also crises, and very deep crises, | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
in the Middle East, near East, These are challenges that we can | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
tackle as Europeans And could closer coordination lead | :22:16. | :22:22. | |
to an EU army? I really think that national armies | :22:23. | :22:30. | |
are not from this time any more. I don't think Germany | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
will invade Belgium, so my opinion is that | :22:35. | :22:36. | |
really in the long term, it should be a European defence, | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
a European army, with one headquarters, one military command | :22:41. | :22:43. | |
and one political control. Now Britain with its veto is out | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
of the way, other countries who are opposed to closer military | :22:49. | :22:51. | |
integration, including historically neutral Sweden | :22:52. | :22:54. | |
and Ireland, are concerned. The European Union is | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
a series of member states who cooperate with each other | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
on various different areas. We're not all the same, | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
we're not homogenous. We have different histories, | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
and therefore having the single foreign policy, | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
single defence policy, it doesn't make sense and in fact, | :23:15. | :23:16. | |
actually puts citizens Ireland's history is | :23:17. | :23:18. | |
as a neutral country. Friday's summit in Bratislava | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
is likely to address faster deployment of forces overseas, | :23:24. | :23:26. | |
coordinating strategic assets such as planes and helicopters, | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
and sharing data from But getting more information | :23:31. | :23:32. | |
from senior European politicians I just want to know, | :23:33. | :23:35. | |
following the Brexit vote, We're working on the European | :23:36. | :23:45. | |
defence together. And the idea of fighting under | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
the EU flag, rather than separate Our armies are already | :23:52. | :23:54. | |
coordinating in the fields, in the battlefield, and, | :23:55. | :24:01. | |
you know, we're talking about dying for Europe, | :24:02. | :24:04. | |
fighting for Europe, but what were we fighting | :24:05. | :24:07. | |
for when we were fighting It was not under the European flag, | :24:08. | :24:10. | |
it was under the Nato flag. The people who are in the military, | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
they know what they Military cooperation could just | :24:17. | :24:18. | |
be the start. Now that the UK with its many fears | :24:19. | :24:26. | |
and objections is leaving, the EU may look for ever closer | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
union in other areas, too. Emily reporting bringing you the | :24:31. | :24:43. | |
news in that report that Germany is not going to invade Belgium. They | :24:44. | :24:50. | |
can rest easy in Brussels after that scoop. When interviewers like myself | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
raise the prospect of a European army, more integration during the | :24:55. | :25:01. | |
referendum, we were assured it was a pipe dream, it was Brexit | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
propaganda, it was never going to happen. Well, there are moves | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
towards it. I never thought it wouldn't necessarily happen. I think | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
they've moved very quickly. Again, it sounds like another gimmick. It's | :25:17. | :25:24. | |
a headline grabber and the only thing it would do is undermine Nato. | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
I think that the European Union have had defence on the cheap for | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
decades. From the Americans. Absolutely. Everything the Americans | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
do is wrong, but by the same token they were quite happy for the | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
Americans to assist. There are many member states who have contributed | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
financially, I think, very little to any budget, and so the fact they | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
want their own military headquarters, which would undermine | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
Nato, when we already have great cooperation, I think again is just | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
another story. The Americans are putting Europe under great pressure | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
to contribute more. America contributes 70% of Nato's | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
capabilities, higher than in the Cold War, even though the threats | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
are not the same. I don't understand how Europe could ever do that and | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
afford to build a separate command structure and common defence force? | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
I don't understand it either. I think the discussion that the | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
Americans want is a reasonable one and it should be about European | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
countries, member states of the EU and non-member states, European | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
countries paying an equal share intimate are making a fairer | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
contribution to Nato. But I think that is less likely post Brexit. | :26:38. | :26:43. | |
Take us out and it's more likely it will happen. Surely if there was a | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
European force it wouldn't be a European force but a French force? | :26:49. | :26:51. | |
Without Britain the only real military that matters in Europe is | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
the French? They would dominate the German forces. Half of them don't | :26:57. | :26:59. | |
work, don't spend money on defence. The French, other than ourselves, | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
are the only European country with formidable defence capabilities? | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
Absolutely, and France had nothing to do with Nato for years. They've | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
only recently come back in. I think with the French... I think they are | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
quite nervous about all of this. French? Absolutely. They will be | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
dumped with a lot of this. Unless this exit strategy is done in such a | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
grown-up way, where Britain will still play a key part in the | :27:29. | :27:36. | |
security of Europe. I think they could have a headquarters in | :27:37. | :27:43. | |
uniforms but without having a significant army. It is on the | :27:44. | :27:46. | |
agenda. That is all for now, goodbye. | :27:47. | :27:57. | |
SOUNDS TO THE TUNE OF: In The Hall Of The Mountain King by Grieg | :27:58. | :28:08. | |
We follow five amateur orchestras from all across the country, | :28:09. | :28:12. |