Browse content similar to 29/09/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:37. | :00:39. | |
As International Trade Secretary Liam Fox sets out his vision | :00:40. | :00:49. | |
for post-Brexit trade deals, we look at the challenges | :00:50. | :00:51. | |
Is Theresa May about to give the green light | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
With rumours of a possible Commons vote next month, | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
we'll ask former Government bigwig, Oliver Letwin. | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
After Labour announces it would implement a total ban | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
on fracking for gas, does the controversial technique | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
We'll hear from the energy boss who's just imported a tanker | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
And does how a politician stands make a difference to how | :01:17. | :01:23. | |
We'll discuss whether "power-posing" is all it's cracked up to be. | :01:24. | :01:35. | |
All that in the next hour and with us for the whole | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
of the programme today, a man who has spent the last six | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
year at the heart of Government, serving throughout the coalition | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
as minister for government policy and before that, | :01:45. | :01:46. | |
many years at the centre of the Conservative | :01:47. | :01:48. | |
Let's kick off with the reports this morning that Theresa May could be | :01:49. | :01:56. | |
preparing to give the green light to Heathrow expansion- | :01:57. | :01:58. | |
despite opposition from some Conservative MPs. | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
The Financial Times reports on its front page today | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
that the Conservative Party chairman, Patrick McLoughlin, | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
has been crunching the numbers and that he believes the PM | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
would win a vote in parliament on the controversial plans. | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
Oliver Letwin, you were on the cabinet committee for airport | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
expansion until you left Government this summer - | :02:20. | :02:21. | |
do you think Theresa May is going to push ahead with this? | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
I have no way of telling. As soon as you leave, you know nothing about | :02:28. | :02:36. | |
what is going on. Did you get any impression before? Not really. But I | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
think it is pretty certain that the government will have to decide in | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
favour of one or the other. I don't believe we can do without some | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
airport expansion in the London and south-east area, so the question is | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
which and where. If we look at Heathrow, we know there is fierce | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
opposition in the Cabinet, not least from Justine Greening and Boris | :03:00. | :03:02. | |
Johnson. So do you think the Prime Minister has enough votes to drive | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
through a policy of expansion to airports? That, I also don't know | :03:09. | :03:11. | |
because I am not the Chief Whip and I have not done the analysis, but my | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
guess is that probably, across Parliament as a whole, there would | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
be a majority in favour. I would be surprised if there were not. I would | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
vote for Heathrow expansion because I think it is a natural thing. It is | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
a hard and it has advantages from that point of view. But what will | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
she do with the members of her Cabinet who would vote against, | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
Boris Johnson and Justine Greening? I don't know, but one way of dealing | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
with it is to have a free vote. And she could then rely on enough Labour | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
support as well as support from the Tory backbenches. The Liberal | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
Democrats only have eight MPs more obviously. This has now got to a | :03:54. | :03:56. | |
point where delay would be seen at by many as the worst option. Delay | :03:57. | :04:05. | |
would be the worst option. My guess... But you have been at the | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
heart of government for a long time and this issue has been discussed | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
time and time again. But I am not informed about the SNP. My guess is | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
that from a Scottish point of view, having Heathrow expand would be a | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
good thing because there are a lot of flights to and from... I think | :04:22. | :04:29. | |
they would vote in favour. But from what you know, do you think most of | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
your colleagues have now been persuaded that expansion at Heathrow | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
is a necessity from an economic point of view? I would guess that | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
there is a substantial view across Tory MPs as a whole that we need | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
expansion of one airport or the other. I doubt there are huge | :04:47. | :04:53. | |
passions pro one or the other. My guess is that whichever the | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
government goes forward probably get a majority. | :04:57. | :04:57. | |
Our guest of the day, Oliver Letwin, was responsible for writing the 2010 | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
Conservative Manifesto, and so the question for today is - | :05:03. | :05:04. | |
Was it Battersea Power Station in London, The Eden Project | :05:05. | :05:11. | |
in Cornwall, The Lowry Arts Centre in Salford Quays a smoothie | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
At the end of the show, Oliver will give us the correct answer. | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
Liam Fox, Theresa May's international trade secretary, | :05:22. | :05:24. | |
has been setting out his vision for post-Brexit trade | :05:25. | :05:27. | |
Speaking in Manchester, Liam Fox said the UK has a golden | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
opportunity to forge a new role for ourselves in the world. | :05:33. | :05:42. | |
Where progress has stalled at the multilateral level, the UK must be | :05:43. | :05:50. | |
ready to look at more bespoke Ilori lateral and bilateral arrangements | :05:51. | :05:52. | |
to make sure the global marketplace remains fair and free. We cannot | :05:53. | :05:59. | |
allow foot dragging by those unwilling to seize the benefits of | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
free trade to hinder progress on important issues for the rest, such | :06:04. | :06:10. | |
as eradicating nontariff barriers in services, digital or intellectual | :06:11. | :06:11. | |
property. Much of the focus so far has been | :06:12. | :06:12. | |
on what relationship Britain After all, the UK can't enter | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
into formal negotiations with any other country while it's | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
still a member of the EU - so that's two years | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
after article 50 is triggered. Our Ellie has been talking to two | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
former international trade negotiators to see what they think | :06:28. | :06:29. | |
of the longer term job about the new trade | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
agreement with Britain. To prosper in the future, | :06:33. | :06:39. | |
it must be again, but getting other countries to queue up to sign | :06:40. | :06:48. | |
on the dotted line will not be easy. How much Britain continues to look | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
to Europe will affect relationships and deals | :06:53. | :06:54. | |
for countries further afield. It would be difficult for us | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
to have a free trade deal with the UK or for the UK | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
to negotiate free-trade deals with countries outside the EU if it | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
stays in the single market or if it opts for a customs | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
union with the EU. Maybe some advantages for Britain | :07:11. | :07:12. | |
in doing that, but it's hard to see how we would negotiate a free trade | :07:13. | :07:15. | |
agreement with UK alone The EU and Canada are about to sign | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
a comprehensive economic and trade agreement, | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
or Ceta, which will eliminate nearly There is talk in Westminster that | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
Britain should push So what does one of the negotiators | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
who worked on that deal think For Canada, it would be working | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
out its economic relationship with other partners in North America | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
and then going on to the rest I assume the UK will pursue | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
the same kind of analysis - "We have to sort things | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
out with Europe first". From there, it needs | :07:50. | :07:51. | |
to get its relationship The WTO is kind of the baseline | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
from which it can build other free-trade agreements with either | :07:55. | :08:02. | |
bilateral or multilateral partners. It's like having a floor in place | :08:03. | :08:09. | |
so that you can build the stairs. Most of Britain's trade | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
negotiations will be the new Department for | :08:14. | :08:15. | |
International Trade. But as well as a new sign, | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
the department will also need some We haven't needed them | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
for more than 40 years, I have been told trade | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
negotiators from Canada, New Zealand and Australia have | :08:27. | :08:33. | |
already been in to gain real life -- to talk about their experiences | :08:34. | :08:46. | |
of negotiation. Finally, a little birdie told me | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
that former foreign trade negotiators have also been | :08:52. | :08:53. | |
approached by the Government Then there are the rumours that | :08:54. | :08:55. | |
Britain could just borrow some. We think the ideal would be for us | :08:56. | :09:03. | |
to lend a few of our negotiators with Australia so that | :09:04. | :09:13. | |
we can get an optimal outcome, but perhaps the British | :09:14. | :09:21. | |
government would draw They run courses in negotiation | :09:22. | :09:23. | |
at the London Business School. Crucially, the tutors insist | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
that the skills are easily learned, Experts estimate that Britain | :09:28. | :09:29. | |
could need up to 700 trade negotiators over several years | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
to get the job done. We've been joined from Cardiff | :09:34. | :09:35. | |
by the Ukip member of the welsh assembly, Mark Reckless, | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
and from Brussels by the Liberal Democrat | :09:39. | :09:40. | |
MEP Catherine Bearder. Oliver Letwin, you were involved in | :09:41. | :09:55. | |
this before you lost your job. Do you favour the UK cutting loose in | :09:56. | :09:58. | |
what they call a source of hard Brexit from the customs union, and | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
then try to negotiate some sort of relationship with the EU? I don't | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
think those decisions you can make unilaterally. The question is what | :10:08. | :10:14. | |
is doable with our EU partners. And what is doable? I don't know yet. | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
What I am clear as about what we need to get out of it. The first | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
thing we need is clarity that we will be able to sell retail, | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
financial and professional services into the European markets. That is | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
crucial for the City of London. So access to the single market. | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
Specifically for retail and financial services. Secondly, we | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
need a continuation of the zero tariff regime we have on exports and | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
imports of goods, which is relatively easy to achieve because | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
it is in the mutual interest. Thirdly, this is what makes the | :10:52. | :10:54. | |
first in particular are very difficult, we need to reassert what | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
the British people have voted for, which is control over migration. The | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
question is, how to put that package together. Some say you want to have | :11:02. | :11:09. | |
your cake and eat it. Correct. But would you be prepared to take some | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
element of freedom of movement in order to guarantee your first point, | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
the retail services and financial services sector being preserved? | :11:21. | :11:23. | |
Speaking for myself if I was a one man show and the only person in the | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
UK, yes, I would. But the people of our country didn't vote for that. | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
They voted for absolute control over migration. Mark Reckless, what trade | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
agreement should we have now and how should we go about it? Well, we have | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
trade arrangements now where we trade freely with the European | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
Union, and I expect they will be maintained. They are the status quo. | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
It may be described as a temporary arrangement, but the reality is that | :11:53. | :11:55. | |
five people are employed in the EU exporting to the UK for every three | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
who are employed in the UK exporting to the EU, so it is strongly in our | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
mutual interest and I expect that will continue. There was an | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
expectation that both you and Oliver Letwin hold onto, which is the idea | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
that because of the arrangements in terms of exports, Germany will be | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
keen to cut that sort of deal. But actually, the head of Germany's | :12:17. | :12:19. | |
industrial federation has said there will be no access to the single | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
market for the UK without freedom of movement. Then there would be | :12:25. | :12:25. | |
significant tariffs on his members' goods being | :12:26. | :12:45. | |
sold to the UK. He seems prepared to take that risk. I think that is | :12:46. | :12:47. | |
unlikely and I wonder if you correctly understood what he said. | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
They have put out statements before saying free trade must be maintained | :12:51. | :12:52. | |
with the UK. So Catherine Bearder, it is bluff from the Germans and | :12:53. | :12:54. | |
also from Matteo Renzi in Italy today to try and say that there will | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
not be a favourable deal for the UK. In the end, practical matters will | :12:59. | :13:00. | |
come to the fore, particularly when it comes to business. You have to | :13:01. | :13:07. | |
get it right. We don't have access to the single market. We are a full | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
member of the European Union. In the same way that Wales is a full member | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
of the UK. So there are no restrictions on trade. If we are | :13:20. | :13:27. | |
coming out, they will say that the rules are that you are a full member | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
and you have to sign up to full movement. If you are outside that, | :13:32. | :13:40. | |
the rules will be different. America trades with the European Union. | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
There American banks working within the European Union. They have to | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
abide by the rules. At the moment, as a member, we don't have all that | :13:51. | :14:00. | |
rigmarole. The American banks will have regulatory equivalents of what | :14:01. | :14:12. | |
happens in the EU, and that will allow all banks within the EU to be | :14:13. | :14:19. | |
able to passport services into the EU. So I don't see that as a | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
challenging area. What I do think we will be able to do is open up a | :14:26. | :14:28. | |
third markets overseas, particularly to our tradable services which | :14:29. | :14:34. | |
offers real opportunities to improve the prosperity of the United Kingdom | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
in the future. Catherine Bearder, is that not possible? Well, why would | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
the European Union give it to us? At the moment, we are a full member. We | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
abide by the rules, and that is accepted. Why would they give us the | :14:51. | :14:57. | |
same access when we are outside? Because that is what its own rules | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
say. Oliver Letwin, you seem to be facing the prospect that you could | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
not have both and that you would be prepared to give on freedom of | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
movement, which Theresa May has indicated she feels Britain cannot | :15:12. | :15:14. | |
do because of the result of the referendum. If that is the case, | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
what would happen to things like passport in for financial services? | :15:20. | :15:20. | |
How disastrous would it be? I think Mark is right that Miffid2 | :15:21. | :15:36. | |
allows countries to export the financial services without going | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
through great great morals. The question is Binny to get some kind | :15:43. | :15:48. | |
of guarantee we would continue to have that access but they're all | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
sorts of things we have to trade in this very complicated situation. | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
There are also lots of things we need to arrange. My experience of | :15:59. | :16:00. | |
negotiating, which I have done quite a lot of over the last many years is | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
if you reduce these things too stark simplicity is no way that goes down | :16:07. | :16:09. | |
well on TV so to speak, it all goes wrong. But you have to do is very | :16:10. | :16:12. | |
subtly unpick all of the many elements and work through them so | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
you get a package. You should not think it on the EU and us. There are | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
27 other member states. You have to knit this thing together. So it will | :16:22. | :16:31. | |
become bigoted and take a long time. A new report says by cronies to | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
spend ?500 million per year on new staff. Brother to get the EU out of | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
unnecessary speculation, we will engage in more bureaucracy to try | :16:43. | :16:45. | |
and unpick this very complicated process you have just outlined. You | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
have to put this in some context, ?65 million a year compared to ?700 | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
billion a year. If you get the deal you want. That is 10,000 times as | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
much. If you are going to get the deal you want and we don't know that | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
at this particular stage. There are reports in the Financial Times that | :17:08. | :17:10. | |
says there was a shortage of space, staff don't have anywhere to work in | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
the Brexit department. Laptops are being shared. These are the kinds of | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
problems you get over matters of weeks, of course it is makes good | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
press but it is very dreary. There is a big game of multi dimensional | :17:26. | :17:28. | |
chess that has to be played, and it is going to take a long time to get | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
it right. I think Theresa is a very good long-distance persistent | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
negotiator and I suspect at the end we will get our cake and be able to | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
eat it. Catherine Debrunner did, though you go. It takes an awful | :17:42. | :17:48. | |
long time, Whitehall has its own problems and it will gobble up a lot | :17:49. | :17:51. | |
of that money promised to the NHS in the referendum. It will take years. | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
The Canadian free trade agreement has taken years. And store has to be | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
ratified. Yes, and they are now really concerned because if we are | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
outside that a large part of the trade agreement was because the UK | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
was involved. So it has to be done sector by sector, you are talking | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
about toys, chemicals, drugs, agriculture and the chemicals you | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
can use and the methods. It just takes forever to do a trade | :18:22. | :18:30. | |
agreement. At the moment, our businesses have access, and we are | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
making those rules. Outside it will take forever. Are you going to tell | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
those businesses that they can just go and wait for five years while we | :18:41. | :18:48. | |
are busy negotiating? What about the uncertainty question, Catherine | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
Bearded, that is raised, because if the UK isn't definitely leaving the | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
customs union, and I suppose we don't yet know, in a way what is | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
Liam Fox going to do over the next few years as head of International | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
trade? Because while we are still a member, we are forgiven from | :19:08. | :19:09. | |
negotiating our own bilateral agreements with third parties. We | :19:10. | :19:19. | |
are forbidden from agreeing them, we can discuss. I think it is quite | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
clear we are going to leave the customs union. But there can be | :19:24. | :19:26. | |
lengthy trade discussions but while they are going on, the status quo is | :19:27. | :19:33. | |
that we have free trade and open access, so unless Catherine Bearder | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
thinks that we will pay far more of that than we would then what will | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
happen is there will be a transitional arrangement where we | :19:44. | :19:46. | |
have the status quo, we transition to whatever these longer-term | :19:47. | :19:52. | |
arrangements are back on the basis that we can negotiate with Canada, | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
we can negotiate with the United States, and rather than having this | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
very complex, restrictive and frankly protectionist negotiation | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
that the EU can, we can open up my kids much more and go back to the | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
principle of actually having mutual recognition of our regulation. | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
Instead of agreeing a single set, everyone has to fly to trade, | :20:15. | :20:17. | |
actually as long as you are compliant with one set of | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
regulations, then your goods and hopefully many sector services are | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
accepted as well. Mark Reckless, think you have lost your earpiece, | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
over the net when, are you happy with the three Brexiteers? Yes, a | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
very formidable team. Do you think they will get on? The media is | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
reporting that is already some sort of discord between the three of them | :20:41. | :20:43. | |
but is it an impossible task for them as a trio to come together and | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
bring forward some sort of coherent plan when they are approaching it | :20:49. | :20:54. | |
from such different angles? I was constantly told during the years of | :20:55. | :20:57. | |
the coalition that it would fall apart. Politicians are grown-ups, | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
they work these things out, of course it makes good press. We might | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
put it back to you if it does. The critical point is that it is not in | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
the end anyone else, my whole experience over the last few years | :21:12. | :21:14. | |
is that when you are negotiating these kinds of things, in the end it | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
is done head of government to head of government. This is Theresa may | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
have will have to carry this. I have had many years of experience and I | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
don't envy the people on the other side of that table, because she's | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
very good at it. In the end it would be her that drives it, in the end it | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
is down to Theresa. Catherine Bearder and Mark Reckless, thank you | :21:38. | :21:40. | |
very much, we will be revisiting this. | :21:41. | :21:51. | |
My guest of the day today - Oliver Letwin - has been at the top | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
of the Conservative Party, and at the heart of Government, | :21:56. | :21:57. | |
But for much of that time he's kept a very low profile, beavering away | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
behind the scenes - ensuring the smooth running | :22:02. | :22:03. | |
of the coalition government from 2010 to 2015, helping | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
David Cameron to implement his 2015 manifesto, and finally - | :22:07. | :22:08. | |
for just two weeks - leading the government's fledgling | :22:09. | :22:10. | |
Brexit unit after the referendum in July. | :22:11. | :22:12. | |
Mark Lobel has been checking out Mr Letwin's political journey. | :22:13. | :22:15. | |
Advising Margaret Thatcher on education, Oliver Letwin | :22:16. | :22:21. | |
was already a Number Ten insider in his 20s. | :22:22. | :22:23. | |
When Mrs Thatcher left Downing Street, this Eton-educated | :22:24. | :22:25. | |
son of academics sought to enter parliament himself, and spoke | :22:26. | :22:27. | |
to the BBC about how to give state schools a better sense of identity. | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
Simple things, like giving them school songs and school | :22:32. | :22:34. | |
histories and other things, which are traditional | :22:35. | :22:36. | |
After two failed bids to become an MP, Oliver Letwin's efforts | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
blossomed in West Dorset, just as New Labour took over. | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
He's caught the eye of Tory leaders ever since, first | :22:46. | :22:48. | |
in William Hague's Treasury team, but things got wobbly as the 2001 | :22:49. | :22:51. | |
general election approached, when he briefed the FT that a Tory | :22:52. | :22:53. | |
government would cut taxes by much more than first thought. | :22:54. | :23:00. | |
Then Chancellor Gordon Brown held up a Wanted poster. | :23:01. | :23:09. | |
Bloodhounds were employed to sniff him out. | :23:10. | :23:11. | |
When he finally resurfaced to find the Tories still in opposition, | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
new leader Iain Duncan Smith made him a Shadow Home Secretary. | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
And the next new leader, Michael Howard, appointed him | :23:20. | :23:21. | |
Shadow Chancellor as they fought the 2005 election together. | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
Oliver is, as everybody knows, very clever. | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
He's got a very inventive and fertile mind. | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
So I didn't really think hard about appointing him | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
He's quite transparent, and you don't have to worry, | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
as you do sometimes with some people, over whether they're playing | :23:44. | :23:46. | |
games or what lies behind whatever they're suggesting. | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
With Oliver, what you see is what you get. | :23:53. | :23:58. | |
Mr Letwin was also one of the earliest backers | :23:59. | :24:00. | |
of the next Tory leader, David Cameron, and having | :24:01. | :24:03. | |
made his own ideological journey more towards the centre, | :24:04. | :24:05. | |
quickly became the future PM's policy chief as the 2010 | :24:06. | :24:07. | |
With a hung parliament, he became a chief negotiator | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
during coalition talks with the Liberal Democrats. | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
He's somebody that you get a strong impression is in it | :24:18. | :24:20. | |
for the public interest and not for his personal interest. | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
So he was a very easy, engaging characters to work with. | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
And even on those occasions where he was having to champion | :24:30. | :24:31. | |
things for his party that he didn't always believe in, | :24:32. | :24:34. | |
he had the decency to look uncomfortable and embarrassed. | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
During the coalition, the two men met to work | :24:38. | :24:39. | |
through policy areas, from the Queen's Speech to regular | :24:40. | :24:41. | |
I guess we had a form of cafeteria government, | :24:42. | :24:51. | |
where Oliver and I met once a week, I think it was a Tuesday morning | :24:52. | :24:54. | |
at 7.30 in the Downing Street cafeteria on the lowest | :24:55. | :24:57. | |
And over a kipper or some porridge or something, we would | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
have a list of five, six or seven difficult issues, | :25:02. | :25:03. | |
and we would work through them and see if we could gain agreement | :25:04. | :25:06. | |
so that as little as possible needed to go to Cameron and Nick Clegg. | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
But the Cabinet Office minister's attempts to keep a low profile came | :25:13. | :25:15. | |
unstuck when he was caught dumping Parliamentary papers | :25:16. | :25:17. | |
and constituents' letters in a park bin. | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
I have to apologise to constituents who wrote to me, | :25:22. | :25:24. | |
because I think you're right, on reflection, that I shouldn't have | :25:25. | :25:26. | |
David Cameron stuck by his man until his last political breath, | :25:27. | :25:33. | |
appointing him to lead a Brexit unit last June. | :25:34. | :25:39. | |
Perhaps Mr Letwin's desire not to climb the political ladder helped | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
convince Tory leader after Tory leader to keep him | :25:43. | :25:44. | |
But it was pulled from under his feet, with the rest | :25:45. | :25:54. | |
of Cameron's old guard, by Theresa May. | :25:55. | :26:02. | |
Well, Oliver Wright when, hope you enjoyed that trip down memory lane. | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
Let's return to one of those intriguing moments, when you put | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
confidential vapours into the bin at Saint James 's Park on five separate | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
occasions, why? Just to correct you, they were not confidential papers, | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
they were letters from constituents. They were not confidential papers, | :26:21. | :26:26. | |
just to be clear. And I shouldn't have put them in the bin, no, I | :26:27. | :26:29. | |
should have shredded them, which I have done since. Was just an | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
absentmindedness, just one of those things? I really didn't think about | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
it, and I should have thought about it. I was in the habit then as I am | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
now of dictating my constituents correspondence early in the morning, | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
and I was walking in the park are needed to get rid of them, and I | :26:47. | :26:49. | |
should have put them in the shredder, which I have done since. | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
In terms of the long span had been in power in one way or another, but | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
the Jews the most sleep over? Oh, I'm not prone to losing sleep, but I | :27:00. | :27:06. | |
buried a lot -- Watt what did you lose the most sleep over. I would | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
turn on the radio or read my blackberry, which I have a summary | :27:12. | :27:14. | |
of the overnight use and think I have to do something about that. | :27:15. | :27:17. | |
Then I wouldn't rush into Downing Street and try to get the machine to | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
do something about it. It was a constant business of trying to | :27:22. | :27:24. | |
manage things that problems did not turn into crises. Which ones did? | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
Brother occasions, policies, that ended up becoming crises? I think of | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
the poll tax with the one of them. Were those when you said a mistake? | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
That wasn't when I was in office, of course, I think the poll tax was a | :27:41. | :27:46. | |
disaster. But you were an adviser. That was a very long, slow burn | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
thing. I left halfway through the middle of that thing. So you didn't | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
lose sleep? No, because I was not implement in the policy. I think in | :27:56. | :27:58. | |
retrospect it was completely the wrong policy but that is a different | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
matter. I am talking about a crisis or a problem in the things happening | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
moment to moment. As an example, almost every winter we have problems | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
with the flooding. The nation has problems with the flooding. And it | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
continues. It does, but gradually I think we are getting it under some | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
kind of control. I used to wake up worried endlessly, have we done | :28:21. | :28:23. | |
enough, what can we do to respond to it, how can we deal with this | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
particular incident? But then things will just blow up out of nowhere. | :28:28. | :28:34. | |
Once we had a massive problem with backlog of passport agency | :28:35. | :28:36. | |
applications and you have to do with that. What about the cutting taxes | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
by 20 billion in 2001, when we couldn't find you? I was a | :28:42. | :28:44. | |
correspondent at the time and we were looking for you. I was rushing | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
around West Dorset making speeches, you could have family perfectly | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
easily! First of the think it was very silly in retrospect to arrange | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
for me to disappear. What should have happened as I should have been | :28:58. | :29:00. | |
sent on a podium to expand exactly what I was saying, and I learn from | :29:01. | :29:03. | |
that episode, that when things go wrong you are much better in front | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
of cameras than out of you. . You think of the Andrew Lansley has an | :29:09. | :29:11. | |
social care bill, you posted once you had been through it line by line | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
but given how divisive it ended up, how much worse was that before it | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
was published? I think the direction of that was right. But I think we | :29:20. | :29:26. | |
made some errors, because I don't think we realised at the time just | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
how difficult it is to knit together the various aspects of health and | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
social care. And I think that we really have been learning over the | :29:38. | :29:40. | |
past few years as a country is that in the end it is about the person, | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
and they don't come in sort of strict bureaucratic pockets. This | :29:45. | :29:50. | |
elderly and frail person is not a patient in the NHS, or an object of | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
care by social care, it is one person and we need one integrated | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
system to look after them. And gradually I think Jeremy Hunt is | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
getting towards that. Do you wish you had killed that the dead? Think | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
you would have been better to have attended at that time to the | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
creation of the seven-day NHS as we can to do later, rather than getting | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
distracted interchanges, which while I think you are perfectly sensible | :30:17. | :30:19. | |
in principle, did not advance the really difficult agendas. You have | :30:20. | :30:25. | |
been involved as we have now uncovered in people in similar | :30:26. | :30:27. | |
different areas of government. Would you rather just have had your own | :30:28. | :30:30. | |
department, you know, one of the big departments yourself to run? Oh no, | :30:31. | :30:36. | |
not at all, partly because it is totally fascinating to be at the | :30:37. | :30:39. | |
centre of government. You really feel you are making a difference Day | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
by day. But partly also because it is a question of each person having | :30:44. | :30:46. | |
their own strengths and weaknesses, and there were colleagues of mine | :30:47. | :30:49. | |
vastly better at front line politics than I was ever going to be. But I | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
think that I was able to do very often was to get to the bottom of | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
what was really going on in the machine, and in the country, and | :30:59. | :31:01. | |
then try to find some way of correcting what was happening. | :31:02. | :31:08. | |
Not one department you would have fancied running? No, I was happy | :31:09. | :31:17. | |
where I was. Greg Oliver's diaries say you were predicting that Michael | :31:18. | :31:20. | |
Gove would win the Conservative leadership election. Which one? | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
After the referendum. Telemachus sorry, I thought you were talking | :31:26. | :31:32. | |
about 2010. Sorry, I am taking you backwards and forwards across the | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
history of the Conservative Party. I thought it was more likely to be a | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
Brexiteer than not. And I thought therefore that it would be Boris. | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
Then it was clear that Boris was not going to win because he had stepped | :31:46. | :31:48. | |
down, so the question was over Michael Gove or Andrea. As it turned | :31:49. | :31:54. | |
out, it was Andrea. In the end, I think the Conservative Party made | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
the right choice. Even though you thought it should have been a | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
Brexiteer? No, I thought it would be. So you did not favour a | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
Brexiteer like Michael Gove or Boris Johnson, you just presumed it would | :32:08. | :32:14. | |
be? Correct. I can now say I own view. I swore a vow of silence at | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
the time because I was preparing for whoever was going to be the next!. | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
My view was that Theresa was the right candidate, and I still hold by | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
that -- she was going to be the next Prime Minister. Ken Clarke has said | :32:28. | :32:35. | |
David Cameron will be remembered as being the man who made the mistake | :32:36. | :32:38. | |
of taking us out of the European Union. I think David Cameron will be | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
remembered for lots of things, rescuing this country from the brink | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
of bankruptcy and initiating public service reform. Of course, people | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
will also remember the referendum. There will also remember other | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
referendums which went the other way. Scotland was a great success. | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
What is your assessment of the Remain campaign now, bearing in mind | :32:59. | :33:04. | |
that it failed? We know it wasn't a successful campaign. I think it was | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
probably wrongly targeted. In retrospect, it would have been | :33:09. | :33:15. | |
better to make a less strident argument of a more detailed car. For | :33:16. | :33:23. | |
me, as someone who had been a long term Eurosceptic but voted for | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
Remain, the reason was not because I thought that disaster would strike | :33:28. | :33:30. | |
one way or the other, but because I thought on the balance of risk, | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
there was greater risk to leaving than remaining. So the punishment | :33:35. | :33:40. | |
Budget was a mistake? I think altogether, the campaign was to be | :33:41. | :33:43. | |
high-intensity and it would have been more persuasive to people in | :33:44. | :33:46. | |
the middle ground who had not made up their minds if we had argued what | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
was true, which was that it was a balance of risk and you were trying | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
to choose the less risky course of action for this country and there | :33:54. | :33:56. | |
were risks on either side. And I think that kind of tone, which was | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
not the tone on either side, would have been more persuasive. Did you | :34:02. | :34:04. | |
try and persuade David Cameron and George Osborne of that? No, because | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
I see these things in retrospect and I believe them, but I am very | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
conscious that I have been one of those people who is least adept at | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
planning election campaigns. It is not my forte. What are you doing | :34:20. | :34:26. | |
next? I have many plans. I am just in the middle of founding a red tape | :34:27. | :34:29. | |
Institute, which is going to identify, on a cross-party basis, | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
the areas of regulation that we will be able to get out from post-Brexit | :34:34. | :34:39. | |
and do so quickly because of consensus across the parties. That | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
could be a significant contribution. I am also writing various books. So | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
you will be a sort of adviser to the post Brexit process. No, I have | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
mercifully been spared being an adviser any further. | :34:55. | :34:56. | |
When you see the union jack fluttering in the breeze, | :34:57. | :34:59. | |
For thousands of years, flags have represented a people's | :35:00. | :35:06. | |
hopes and dreams. We wave them. | :35:07. | :35:08. | |
And still in the 21st century, die for them. | :35:09. | :35:15. | |
Tim Marshall, former diplomatic editor at Sky, | :35:16. | :35:18. | |
has a new book out "Worth Dying For: The Power and Politics of Flags" - | :35:19. | :35:21. | |
Worth Dying For - The Power and Politics of Flags, | :35:22. | :35:58. | |
Let's start with the Union Jack. We have a picture, in case anyone | :35:59. | :36:09. | |
doesn't know what it looks like. What is the story behind it? It is | :36:10. | :36:16. | |
the story of our union, the story of the legend of St George, the legend | :36:17. | :36:25. | |
of St Andrew, King Angus in Scotland. Said Andrew looked up at | :36:26. | :36:31. | |
the sky before going into battle and saw this great white Cross, hence | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
the saltire. Then they added things on. Unfortunately, we did not put a | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
dragon in, which is problematic with our flag. And then after 1707 and | :36:41. | :36:46. | |
the act of union, here we are. But what you really see in it is down to | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
you. It is in the eye of the beholder. I think it is quite a good | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
flag. It is certainly one of the best-known in the world. It has | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
endured. But there will be people who look at it, and there was a | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
nickname in certain quarters, the butcher's apron, because if you are | :37:07. | :37:09. | |
that particular beholder and you look at that flag, it means | :37:10. | :37:13. | |
something very different. Let's talk about symbolism. Why are they so | :37:14. | :37:20. | |
symbolic for many people, whether it is on porches in the states all | :37:21. | :37:26. | |
waved at various events during the year to denote patriotism or burnt | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
or whatever it is, they are very important. Because it is the | :37:32. | :37:38. | |
embodiment of ideas. There are so many examples. The Ethiopian flag is | :37:39. | :37:46. | |
a good example, red, gold and green. The only African country not to be | :37:47. | :37:50. | |
fully colonised was such an inspiration to the rest of Africa | :37:51. | :37:52. | |
that when the African countries began to become independent | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
themselves many of them took inspiration from red, gold and | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
green. These are just colours, but what they mean to people who look at | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
in Africa is freedom, independence and standing up against the outside | :38:06. | :38:11. | |
oppressor. How old or how recent our flags? You will get letters, several | :38:12. | :38:20. | |
of them. I get them all the time! It depends on your definition of a | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
flag. 20,000 years ago, I'm sure somebody stuck a skull on top of the | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
post and carried it in front of them. Is that a flag? Maybe not. | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
Fast forward, and you have got cloth, but if you put paint onto | :38:33. | :38:35. | |
cloth, it is pretty heavy and then if it rains, you will fall backwards | :38:36. | :38:41. | |
off your horse into battle. So silk - the Chinese invented Suk. About | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
3000 years ago, you can start colouring silk and carrying it into | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
battle. Take that along the silk road, and you meet the Arabs. The | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
Arabs then start to have their own flags. In the Crusades, we have this | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
unfortunate collision between the two, but a lot of Europeans thought, | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
that is a good idea. From that comes the European flags. From there comes | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
heraldry and out of heraldry comes the national flag we see today. | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
Let's look at Chinese flags. What does that flag is a? It's says | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
communism! With Chinese characteristics, which is capitalism | :39:18. | :39:24. | |
now. The colour red says communism. The big star is the Communist party, | :39:25. | :39:31. | |
and it dominates the flag. Behind it are the four categories of the | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
Chinese. There are the presents, the proletariat. There are the | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
bourgeoisie, and then very cunningly, there is the patriotic | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
capitalists. That was very far-sighted of the Chinese in the | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
1940s. Now the last one dominates the other three, but dominating them | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
all is the party. Do you have a favourite flag? I think the Union | :39:56. | :40:01. | |
Jack. Other than that. It something you interested in's it is something | :40:02. | :40:07. | |
I am moved by, for the reasons Tim says. And I think it is above the | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
fray. It is outside politics, like the Queen. It is something we can | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
all unify around, rather than being divided. It is something we are | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
supposed to unify around, but it can be divisive. Are you uniting around | :40:22. | :40:34. | |
the EU flag? I meant the Union Jack. Almost all of us feel British. I | :40:35. | :40:42. | |
accept that if you are in Scotland and use of Independence, you might | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
pick a different view. But most of us who believe in the union believe | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
in the flag because it is outside the disputes about everything else. | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
What about the difference in style and imagery? You talked about | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
Ethiopia. European style flags and flags from the Arab nations, is | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
there a big difference in what they are trying to say? Yes. This is | :41:02. | :41:07. | |
blindingly obvious, but worth pointing out. Obviously, the | :41:08. | :41:10. | |
Christian symbolism fades. You have the Scandinavian cross in the north. | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
The Portuguese flag has the five stigmata of Jesus on it, the Greek | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
flag has the cross. That starts to fade as you head into the East. Two | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
things happen then. One is that you have the Arab colours of revolt. The | :41:25. | :41:31. | |
Saudi flag has the profession of faith on it. That is so obviously | :41:32. | :41:37. | |
not European. The Arab flag is a revolt. There were three Islamic | :41:38. | :41:44. | |
dynasty is. All three are represented on the Arab flag of | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
revolt, the red, green and the red, green and black. That was to bring | :41:48. | :41:51. | |
together the Shia and Sunni dynasty is to become pan Arabic. That is why | :41:52. | :41:54. | |
so many of their flags are those colours. The Saudis decided that | :41:55. | :41:57. | |
they were different and they were the true holders of the faith. | :41:58. | :42:03. | |
Interestingly, along come Isis. They no longer have green, because that | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
is associated sometimes with the Shia faith. If you look at the | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
difference between the Saudi flag and its calligraphy and beautiful | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
green, and the ragged, old-fashioned, brutal flag. Firstly, | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
it is square, because Mohammed's flag was supposed to be square. And | :42:23. | :42:29. | |
they want to go back to that. That is the point. The calligraphy says | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
sixth century. We are the rough and ready, original Sunni Islam. And the | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
white is the stamp of Muhammad. It is very similar to some of the | :42:41. | :42:47. | |
letters in the museum in Istanbul. That whole flag screams, we are the | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
authentic voice of Islam, in opposition to the others. That is | :42:52. | :42:57. | |
the politics of flags. You are fascinated by this. It is a vehicle. | :42:58. | :43:00. | |
I like talking about current affairs. | :43:01. | :43:02. | |
Earlier this week, the first ever US shale gas to be imported to the UK | :43:03. | :43:05. | |
The shale gas, extracted using the controversial fracking | :43:06. | :43:08. | |
technique, was bought by Ineos, the oil refinery at Grangemouth, | :43:09. | :43:11. | |
because they say it was cheaper to import than extracting gas | :43:12. | :43:16. | |
Also this week, Labour's shadow energy secretary, | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
Barry Gardiner, announced at the party conference | :43:21. | :43:22. | |
that his party would ban fracking in the UK if they form | :43:23. | :43:25. | |
and they give rise to real environmental dangers. | :43:26. | :43:32. | |
But technical problems can be overcome. | :43:33. | :43:39. | |
So on their own, they are not a good enough reason to ban fracking. | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
is that it locks us into an energy infrastructure | :43:44. | :43:47. | |
long after our country needs to have moved to clean energy. | :43:48. | :43:53. | |
that a future Labour government will ban fracking. | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
We've been joined by the director of Ineos, Tom Crotty. | :43:58. | :44:10. | |
What is your reaction to what Barry Gardiner said, band fracking if | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
Labour comes to government? I think it is misguided and misinformed and | :44:17. | :44:19. | |
it misses the point, which is that there are so many jobs in this | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
country dependent on supplies of gas. We hit our homes with gas. | :44:24. | :44:27. | |
Industry uses gas. To assume that there was a bright new tomorrow and | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
we flick a switch and that goes away is naive. But is he right to say | :44:32. | :44:38. | |
that fracking locks us into fossil fuels? No. Gas is a required fuel. | :44:39. | :44:43. | |
We need gas, even with renewables. When the sun as much and in the wind | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
is not blowing, you have to keep the lights on and the best back-up | :44:48. | :44:50. | |
system is gas. It is a low carbon alternative. Well, you disagree with | :44:51. | :44:56. | |
what Barry Gardiner is saying, which is hardly surprising, but he is | :44:57. | :44:59. | |
tapping into public sentiment on this, as is Labour, because only one | :45:00. | :45:01. | |
in five people support fracking. There are so many polls on this | :45:02. | :45:11. | |
unlike the opinion polls they are very varied. We get a completely | :45:12. | :45:17. | |
different result. The government's energy tracking polling show that | :45:18. | :45:23. | |
just 31% supported. We are going out into village halls and town halls in | :45:24. | :45:26. | |
the areas we are likely to do this and saying these are the facts, | :45:27. | :45:29. | |
because people have not been presented with facts. When they get | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
the fact they are in the Nutley more supportive. You talk about jobs and | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
you have invested an awful lot into fracking, but instead of bringing in | :45:39. | :45:41. | |
gas from America, why not just invest in North Sea oil and gas? We | :45:42. | :45:49. | |
are. Invest more. We have put a lot of North Sea oil gas rigs but there | :45:50. | :45:55. | |
is insufficient gas. It will be 80% import it in five years' time. Not | :45:56. | :46:00. | |
producing our own gas will do is replaced those imports, keep that | :46:01. | :46:03. | |
income within the UK, not having it going to regimes across the world | :46:04. | :46:06. | |
who potentially unstable and not reliable. So why should we not keep | :46:07. | :46:13. | |
that money in the UK? What do you think of government policy so far | :46:14. | :46:17. | |
towards fracking? It has been very positive, the government have been | :46:18. | :46:20. | |
supportive. Except it is not happening. We have started seismic | :46:21. | :46:26. | |
testing in the areas where we have licenses. Now we have got the | :46:27. | :46:29. | |
licences we are starting to work. Do you think government should have | :46:30. | :46:35. | |
gone further and faster with fracking? Note, I think it was quite | :46:36. | :46:44. | |
right to be cautious. It is the kind of thing that will only build | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
confidence gradually of the regulatory regime is really tight | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
and the environmental regimes are properly addressed. I spent a lot of | :46:52. | :46:54. | |
time with officials going through exactly what had been done, talking | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
to members of the industry and the regulators and became convinced that | :46:59. | :47:01. | |
we had got it straight, and I think that that's stage it was right to | :47:02. | :47:09. | |
license. The truth is whatever Barry Gardner says or doesn't say today | :47:10. | :47:15. | |
the truth is the UK will be using gas fields to come. I happen to | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
believe a passionate believer in climate change but we are going to | :47:20. | :47:26. | |
need gas. Is fracking solution? Somebody who think they have the | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
solution in the energy sphere you should be very sceptical about, it | :47:31. | :47:33. | |
is a big mix of things was that this is one of the things that reduces | :47:34. | :47:35. | |
our dependence on Mark Webb, Russia and the Middle East. Can you think | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
of three parts of the world you would least likely want to be | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
dependent on? It is clearly worth trying to produce our own. You say | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
people are not being presented with the facts, what are the facts? How | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
do you know the technology is completely safe? There is no such | :47:52. | :47:57. | |
thing as 100% safe, when you take your car to the petrol station, | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
there is a risk. Nothing is perfect, North Sea oil and gas has issues, we | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
all know that. We will make sure this is done as safely as humanly | :48:07. | :48:09. | |
possible because we are taking 20 years of learning from the US. | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
Another is right, in the early days some rogue things went on, which are | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
now regulated and we would not be a able to do in the UK. Regulations | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
are very tight. Even so, it is not happening at the moment. There are | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
licenses that have been taken, and applications have been made, and | :48:28. | :48:30. | |
they haven't gone ahead, partly because of local opposition. One | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
could say that the government, newcomer had been deaf to the | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
anti-fracking campaigners who just wanted. It is very slowly and | :48:40. | :48:46. | |
gradually happening, partly because we have given local population is | :48:47. | :48:49. | |
the right, which I think they should have, to decide whether they wanted | :48:50. | :48:52. | |
them in their own place. I think the regulation will make sure it is | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
ecologically safe and sound, but of course if you have a great big | :48:57. | :48:59. | |
object right next to your house, I don't know where you live, but if I | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
had one next to mine, I would have something to say about it, so it is | :49:04. | :49:06. | |
right that locals can treat it as a normal planning application, which | :49:07. | :49:09. | |
means it doesn't happen overnight but we should not be upset about | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
that. Doing these things slowly and gradually gaining popular acceptance | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
of the right way. Will that be quick enough here? Take us to three years | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
just to do the science, we won't do anything until we know the content. | :49:25. | :49:27. | |
We will do test drilling, which will take two or three years before we | :49:28. | :49:34. | |
get to think about developing. There is another option, of course, | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
nuclear power, and Theresa May has finally given the green light to | :49:39. | :49:44. | |
Hinckley. Do you support that? We think it is a sensible technology to | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
invest in. You are talking about electricity. 80% of this country's | :49:49. | :49:54. | |
houses are heated by gas. But you are still in favour of her giving | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
the go-ahead to Hinkley Point? We are extremely supportive of nuclear | :49:59. | :50:05. | |
investment, I am not sure that Hinckley is the best investment, it | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
is very expensive, but it is a start. When you look at things like | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
the strike price, it seems to be much more expensive, and not value | :50:14. | :50:16. | |
for money for the taxpayer. No, I don't actually think that. At ?90 a | :50:17. | :50:22. | |
kilowatt hour, the product from Hinckley can compete with any | :50:23. | :50:29. | |
totally non-carbon if as fuel. With gas, if you are going to equal that, | :50:30. | :50:32. | |
you would have to do something like carbon capture storage and those at | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
the moment are expensive technologies. So you need in the | :50:37. | :50:42. | |
system what is called baseload, the kinds of plants that will produce | :50:43. | :50:45. | |
electricity at all times of day and night and are available when the | :50:46. | :50:48. | |
wind is too high or too low and the sun isn't shining and salon. You can | :50:49. | :50:53. | |
get that from two sources, from gas and from nuclear. If we build | :50:54. | :50:56. | |
nuclear stations we can get it without the carbon, which is a help | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
towards the world's reduction of carbon, and it is more or less the | :51:02. | :51:04. | |
cheapest way of doing that at the moment. I think we can do better and | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
I think subsequent generations of nuclear, especially small modular | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
nuclear reactors will be more Finance Bill and probably in the end | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
cheaper. Do you think Theresa May did irreparable damage with China by | :51:18. | :51:22. | |
putting temporary hold on giving the go-ahead to Chinese investment? No, | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
my experience of investing -- negotiating with the Chinese... You | :51:28. | :51:35. | |
have negotiated with everyone! These are very grown-up, very subtle, very | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
intelligent. They are very sensitive. But they understand | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
things from a very long perspective, and a fuel leaks for Theresa to make | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
her mind about this, perfectly sensible for a new permanence to do, | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
will not fracture the relationships. I think the golden era as it's | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
called of UK- Chinese relationships is still going strong and it is | :51:56. | :51:58. | |
important it will be, because Chinese and India will be the | :51:59. | :52:01. | |
dominant features of the landscape of the board of the next 30 to 40 | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
years. Wendy thing you will start packing? Emotionally within the next | :52:07. | :52:12. | |
five years. Tom Crotty, thank you for coming in. As we all know in | :52:13. | :52:20. | |
politics, just as in other walks of life, | :52:21. | :52:21. | |
certain things go in and out of fashion. | :52:22. | :52:23. | |
Take, for example, the idea that politicians should make speeches | :52:24. | :52:26. | |
without a jacket and tie, with their shirt-sleeves rolled up. | :52:27. | :52:28. | |
Or talking about what they like to listen to on their ipod. | :52:29. | :52:31. | |
But do you remember last autumn's political hot | :52:32. | :52:33. | |
Well, it turns out that the power pose fad was all in vain. | :52:34. | :53:12. | |
This week, one of the body language experts who popularised the idea | :53:13. | :53:15. | |
announced she no longer believes that 'power pose' effects - | :53:16. | :53:17. | |
such as increasing confidence and appearing powerful - are real. | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
We've been joined by James Brooke, co-director of 'Threshold' - | :53:22. | :53:23. | |
thank you. Are you disappointed she has rubbished the idea? It is all | :53:24. | :53:39. | |
about confidence, and we know people strongly associate confidence with | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
competence, that is the holy Grail, what business leaders and | :53:45. | :53:46. | |
politicians are always trying to achieve. The reason they hooked into | :53:47. | :53:50. | |
it was about five years ago, the study you are talking about seem to | :53:51. | :53:56. | |
interject the science bit. What is the science? The science, in theory, | :53:57. | :53:59. | |
and it is disputed, with good reason, I'll come onto that. We have | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
known for quite a long time that if we stand and act in a confident way, | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
levels of self-reported confidence increase. We feel more confident if | :54:09. | :54:14. | |
you act more confident. You set up straighter than! Indeed, I did. The | :54:15. | :54:22. | |
study out of Harvard suggested not only do we feel more confident, but | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
it changes the neuro hormonal balance in our brain. You mean it | :54:28. | :54:31. | |
gives off and orphans or something? It seems to inject a bit of | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
neuroscience, and there is a fair bit of evidence that if you put the | :54:37. | :54:38. | |
word neuroscience in something people more readily believe it is | :54:39. | :54:45. | |
real. So it is a self-fulfilling prophecy then. Precisely. But if you | :54:46. | :54:50. | |
stand more confident way, you feel more confident and you are more | :54:51. | :54:53. | |
likely to project what in the jargon is composed micro-signals that | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
suggest greater levels of confidence. We know that works. What | :54:59. | :55:03. | |
is questionable is the science bit. Do you think it worked for these | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
politicians? There is one of George Osborne standing with his legs | :55:08. | :55:10. | |
apart, does he look more powerful and confident? The key thing is not | :55:11. | :55:17. | |
get caught practising it, so people can see all the strings. My guess is | :55:18. | :55:23. | |
that was taken almost in rehearsal. What he is probably trying to do is | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
associate that space with a space where he feels powerful. I'm not | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
sure it was in rehearsal, if it isn't rehearsal, how does he look? I | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
think he is slightly showing the strings there. The science bit is | :55:38. | :55:41. | |
disputed, and I think that is important to say. If we are talking | :55:42. | :55:46. | |
about this stuff, I would say this is a hypothesis. There have been | :55:47. | :55:51. | |
studies that suggest it has no effect on the neuro, more balanced | :55:52. | :55:53. | |
that if it works for you, do it. Over there I think he has | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
exaggerated a little too much. We had pictures of George Osborne, | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
Theresa May, Michael Gove, did you get the memo? No. I suspect people | :56:02. | :56:07. | |
knew that I didn't matter from that point of view. LAUGHTER | :56:08. | :56:11. | |
I'm sure that's not the case! And secondly they may have remembered | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
that for the ghastly period when I was Shadow Chancellor and sent off | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
somebody to teach me to do these things, I turned into some of | :56:21. | :56:23. | |
couldn't bear and I don't think anyone else could bear much, and I | :56:24. | :56:26. | |
have never done it since and I don't believe in all this garbage. I think | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
you should just be yourself, and that is the only thing you can do. | :56:31. | :56:35. | |
Come on, James, show me the power pose. Not that I stand that often in | :56:36. | :56:40. | |
the studio, but if I were. I am going to show you what I sense | :56:41. | :56:45. | |
George Osborne was coached to do. The crucial thing is don't do it | :56:46. | :56:50. | |
live, do it as preparation. You mean like I'm doing now? OK. The first | :56:51. | :56:58. | |
thing is, he looks like he is expecting a 747 to fly through his | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
legs. Not very elegant. So exaggerated. The idea is when we are | :57:03. | :57:09. | |
at our most confident we take up the mess space, so that exaggerates it. | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
So if you are just hands on the hips. It is a quite natural, isn't | :57:14. | :57:19. | |
it? It is, you could call it the gunslinger pose, so it is a bit Gary | :57:20. | :57:24. | |
glitter, or it could be wonder woman. Do you think I project | :57:25. | :57:29. | |
confidence here? No, I think you look like somebody... LAUGHTER | :57:30. | :57:36. | |
The hypothesis... We haven't got much time. Not only are you feeling | :57:37. | :57:41. | |
more confident Chameera level of circulating testosterone has | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
increased. Oh great! The key thing is a study has come out, about two | :57:47. | :57:49. | |
years ago, that suggested it makes no difference to testosterone. The | :57:50. | :57:53. | |
crucial thing is if it works for you, do it, take the science bit | :57:54. | :57:58. | |
with a big pinch of salt. I'm not convinced, but one last pose. James, | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
thank you very much. I think we have just got time before we go to find | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
out the answer to our quiz, Oliver let them. | :58:08. | :58:08. | |
The question was where was the 2010 Conservative Manifesto - | :58:09. | :58:11. | |
written by our guest Oliver Letwin - launched? | :58:12. | :58:14. | |
Was it a) Battersea Power Station in London? | :58:15. | :58:15. | |
C) The Lowry Arts Centre in Salford Quays? | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
Or d) A smoothie bar in Notting Hill? | :58:20. | :58:21. | |
So, Oliver, what's the correct answer? | :58:22. | :58:26. | |
Ever since you posted this, I have been desperately searching my | :58:27. | :58:35. | |
memory. How can you not remember? I remember quite a lot about that was | :58:36. | :58:38. | |
in the manifesto and I can even remember sitting at a bench while | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
David was... You didn't put it in a bit nearby? I haven't got the | :58:44. | :58:45. | |
slightest idea. Extraordinary scenes, here. | :58:46. | :58:47. | |
The atmosphere, absolutely electric. | :58:48. | :59:13. |