Browse content similar to 11/10/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:37. | :00:39. | |
Should UK war planes be deployed to Syria to enforce no-fly zones? | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
MPs hold an emergency debate on the humanitarian | :00:44. | :00:45. | |
After her whistle-stop tour review appeared in capitals, Theresa May | :00:46. | :01:02. | |
continues a European charm offensive, meeting the Croatian | :01:03. | :01:03. | |
Prime Minister in Downing Street. He's been Home Secretary, | :01:04. | :01:05. | |
Justice Secretary and Conservative big beast Ken Clarke | :01:06. | :01:07. | |
joins me to look back And could self-build houses | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
help solve the housing We report from Holland, | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
where cheap flat-pack This house was built in a factory. | :01:14. | :01:26. | |
They built it, they put it on a big truck, set it up in one day. It took | :01:27. | :01:32. | |
one day? It took one day. And with us for the whole | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
of the programme today the former Conservative Chancellor, | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
Home Secretary and Lord We never have time to list them all | :01:41. | :01:55. | |
in one go! God no, don't go through my tedious CV, it is very long! | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
In the next hour, MPs will discuss the situation in Syria | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
after the former International Development Secretary Andrew | :02:02. | :02:02. | |
Mitchell secured a debate in the House of Commons. | :02:03. | :02:04. | |
Speaking to the BBC earlier, Mr Mitchell argued that a no-fly | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
zone should now be enforced over Syria to protect civilians. | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
And that British planes could be involved. No one wants to see a | :02:12. | :02:23. | |
firefight with Russia, no one wants to shoot down a Russian plane, that | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
the international community has on about responsibility to protect, | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
which must be exerted. If that means confronting Russian ab power, | :02:34. | :02:35. | |
defensively, on behalf of the innocents on the ground, we are | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
trying to protect, we should do that. If it meant British planes | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
being involved, so be it? I think Britain should explore with lights | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
out force a no-fly zone. It is clearly not something we could do | :02:50. | :02:56. | |
alone, but as part of the coalition of the willing to confront this | :02:57. | :02:58. | |
awful catastrophe, we should do that if we are able to do so. | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
Ken Clarke, how practical is that suggestion of a no-fly zone, that we | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
the British would help in force? Obviously we cannot do it alone. The | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
question is what we would do if, which is unlikely, I think, the | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
American smooth to do that. We have been rejecting that for years | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
because the risk of direct conflict with Russians is very considerable, | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
there are lots of Russian Out to ground and ground to air missile | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
systems which are very modern and effective. It would be a very high | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
risk strategy. What is happening in Aleppo is one of the several major | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
crises in the world, the British alone will not be able to do | :03:41. | :03:42. | |
anything. He said it would not be Britain | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
alone but he wanted Britain to take the central role because they that | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
because he says they still have a strong diplomatic position, which we | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
could argue about. Andrea Mitchell likens Russia to the Nazis in 1930s | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
Spain in terms of breaking international law, they are | :04:01. | :04:02. | |
destroying United Nations in its ability to act in the way that the | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
Germans and Italians to strike the league of Nations in the 1930s. He | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
is trying to make it so serious that there is a call to action, if you | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
like? These historic comparisons... He is right to dramatise it. Here's | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
a friend of mine, but the attitude to warfare in the Second World War | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
was very different to now. Strongly support the idea that we now have a | :04:25. | :04:31. | |
rule of international law. The Russians are breaking it? Certainly. | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
They say they are sovereign and all that. They are binding on a lot | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
about sovereignty. I think we should all abide by international law, we | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
should put pressure on them. It has not worked. Angie says we should | :04:46. | :04:53. | |
discuss with allies. -- Andrew says. With our allies, we have declined to | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
do this for several years, one can only hope that worldwide pressure, | :04:58. | :05:04. | |
the shock, horror at the scale of civilian losses just likely in | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
Aleppo might get the Russians and the Syrians to modify what they are | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
doing. What do you think Theresa May's instinct would be, and will | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
be, over this situation? Andrew Mitchell says he has spoken to her, | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
and like any person would be, it is sympathetic. But beyond that, what | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
would her instincts be? I don't know. As a guess? I think her | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
reaction to the humanitarian tragedy would be the same as any other | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
civilised person. When you are Prime Minister you have a key role with | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
the Foreign Secretary in deciding how far you will escalate this. The | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
most important thing is what view she takes with President Obama if, | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
which I doubt, President Obama starts contemplating doing this. Is | :05:53. | :05:59. | |
there any point in having this debate? Well, I think it will give | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
rise to almost universal agreement on all sides that this is an | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
outrage. The shock and horror at the likely scale and more civilian | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
casualties to the ones we have already had. The British are slow to | :06:13. | :06:20. | |
come to terms with that diminishing role in the world and are viewed by | :06:21. | :06:26. | |
the rest of the world, I may say so, particularly since the Brexit vote, | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
as America's most faithful satellite. Russians, I have met | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
Russians who have told me that if we want to know what British foreign | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
policy is, we ring up Washington. So I hope the speeches this afternoon | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
do not start imagining that any of this can happen without Washington | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
agreeing to do this. Let's leave it there. | :06:48. | :06:49. | |
The question for today is, "What is Theresa May | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
reported to have banned from Cabinet meetings?" | :06:54. | :06:54. | |
At the end of the show, Ken will give us the correct answer. | :06:55. | :07:08. | |
The Government is adamant there will be no running | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
But MPs on all sides of the House are arguing that Parliament | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
should have a final say on the UK's negotiating terms. | :07:17. | :07:18. | |
Number Ten says these MPs are trying to thwart | :07:19. | :07:20. | |
Yesterday the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU defended | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
the Government's right to proceed without Parliament's | :07:26. | :07:27. | |
Let's take a look at some of the exchanges. | :07:28. | :07:37. | |
The referendum was backed by 6-1 in this House | :07:38. | :07:39. | |
and on all sides of the argument, Leave and Remain, we have a duty | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
to respect and carry out the people's instructions. | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
As I said, the mandate is clear and we'll reject any attempt to undo | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
the referendum result, any attempt to hold up the process | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
unduly or any attempt to keep Britain in the EU by the back door | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
by those who didn't like the answer they were given on June 23rd. | :07:59. | :08:06. | |
During the referendum campaign, much was made on the Leave | :08:07. | :08:08. | |
side about parliamentary sovereignty. | :08:09. | :08:11. | |
In his statement, the Secretary of State says, "We will return | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
sovereignty to the institutions of this United Kingdom." | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
Yet it seems the Government wants to draw up negotiating terms, | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
negotiate and reach a deal without any parliamentary approval. | :08:24. | :08:30. | |
That is not making Parliament sovereign. | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
Can I point out to him that if he is to advise his opposite | :08:34. | :08:42. | |
number, he might remind him that the repeal of the 72 | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
European Communities Act, will give many, many opportunities | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
to amend and debate every single aspect of the discussions around | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
And just in case they haven't noticed, they always have the device | :08:55. | :09:03. | |
of Opposition Days when they can debate absolutely anything | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
they choose, even the whole issue of the European Union. | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
So may I urge him to get on with the process and don't listen | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
to those who really want to bog it down and never let it happen. | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
Three days before he was appointed, the Secretary of State published | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
an article saying it was very important to publish | :09:24. | :09:25. | |
Can he tell us when is he going to publish that white paper? | :09:26. | :09:34. | |
And as someone who, for many years, railed about the importance | :09:35. | :09:36. | |
of the powers of backbenchers and Parliament against | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
the executive, can he give us, now, with a straight face, | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
an answer to the question - where is the Government's mandate | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
for its negotiations, either from this House | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
I've been a great admirer of the Secretary of State | :09:52. | :09:57. | |
for his staunch defence of civil liberties and his staunch defence | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
I was a great admirer when he moved the bill on parliamentary control | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
of the executive in 1999, where he stirringly told us that | :10:06. | :10:08. | |
executive decisions by the Government should be | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
subject to the scrutiny and approval of Parliament. | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
So, could he tell us, on the basis of what constitutional | :10:16. | :10:17. | |
principle, can he believe now that the Prime Minister can now | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
arregate for herself, the exclusive right to interpret | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
what Brexit means, impose it upon the country, | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
rather than respect the rightful role of scrutiny | :10:28. | :10:29. | |
My right honourable friend will be aware that sometimes it is very | :10:30. | :10:43. | |
important to pay attention to the Liberal elite | :10:44. | :10:45. | |
and he will be aware that on referendum night we were told, | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
"I will forgive no-one who does not respect the sovereign | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
voice of the British people once it has spoken, | :10:52. | :10:53. | |
When the British people have spoken, you do what they command, | :10:54. | :11:05. | |
either you believe in democracy or you do not." | :11:06. | :11:07. | |
Those were the words of Lord Ashdown on Norton-sub-Hamdon in the district | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
of Somerset, who is the most elitist Liberal I know. | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
Can I, therefore, urge my right honourable friend to be true | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
to the views of Lord Ashdown, to the principles of Liberalism | :11:19. | :11:21. | |
and the traditions of this House and give affect to the | :11:22. | :11:23. | |
17 million votes were cast on June 23rd for Britain to leave | :11:24. | :11:31. | |
the European Union and attempts by anti-democratic and ill-liberal | :11:32. | :11:34. | |
voices on the opposition benches, to thwart the British | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
people's will, will rightly, be treated with disdain. | :11:38. | :11:51. | |
We're joined now by the Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg, who campaigned | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
Welcome to the programme. Ken Clarke, would you support the call | :11:56. | :12:03. | |
from Labour and the Liberal Democrats for a vote on the | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
Government's initial negotiating position? Yes, I will. The problem | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
with the referendum was that nobody voted for anything, no two | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
Brexiteers entirely agreed with each other on exactly what you would do | :12:19. | :12:21. | |
in the event of them winning it. We are now deeply immersed, because it | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
is the most urgent problem, in trade arrangements with Europe and a lot | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
of other countries in the rest of the world which were the subject | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
matter of the referendum -- which were not the subject matter of the | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
referendum in the faintest detail. First shows the overriding | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
constitutional situation. We have a Parliamentary democracy, Government | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
is made better when made accountable of the details of what it does to a | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
representative. Jacob Rees-Mogg, the opening remark, no two Brexiteers | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
had the same vision. So there has to be a vote on that initial | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
negotiating stance? I think this is wrong, it is fascinating but none of | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
the pro-Remainers asked for a debate on David Cameron's negotiating terms | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
before he did his wee negotiation. That was deemed to be a perfectly | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
normal exercise by the Government of its powers. It is unknown to have | :13:18. | :13:26. | |
this type of vote on what a Government may negotiate. Parliament | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
scrutinises what has been done rather than authorised. It may be | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
unknown, but is it wrong to have some sort of vote by Parliament, | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
bearing in mind sovereignty was such a cornerstone of your whole | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
campaign? Why deny parliament that sovereignty? Parliament is not | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
denied any God at all. It is having a vote tomorrow on an opposition Day | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
motion... That is not binding in any way. Legislation comes at the end of | :13:54. | :14:00. | |
the process, not be beginning. The constitution is very | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
straightforward, it has separation of powers between the executive, the | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
legislature and the judiciary. The executive links the day-to-day | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
decisions, they require legislative approval for which they had to go to | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
Parliament, Parliament provides redress of grievances. As yet there | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
is no grievance because there is no decision. Your concern and your call | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
for a vote at this opening stage will just feel the argument that you | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
just want to thwart the referendum result? That is a way of getting out | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
of debating what we are going for. The Government does not know what it | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
is going for, although at Conference they are effectively announced we | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
are leaving the single market and the customs union, the very reverse | :14:45. | :14:46. | |
of what was argued in the referendum, because everyone was in | :14:47. | :14:49. | |
favour of free trade and remaining are trading links. The idea that you | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
can interpret Parliamentary sovereignty in the constitution, | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
which Jacob and I are both ardent supporters of, Parliament never | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
discusses policy. Parliament cannot vote on policy. It can only wait to | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
see whatever the Government wants to do and allow it to happen, only then | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
can it a vote when the Government has committed the country to all | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
these decisions. That is a startling diminution of the role of | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
Parliament. Even in the face of a referendum. Just before I come back | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
to you, Jacob Rees-Mogg, when you say that the vote to Leave did not | :15:27. | :15:34. | |
automatically mean leaving the single market, what does it mean to | :15:35. | :15:37. | |
leave the EU if it is not to leave the single market? Different voters | :15:38. | :15:45. | |
had different views on both sides. A lot of it is interpreted as wanting | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
fewer foreigners. But there were many intelligence and perfectly | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
civilised people on the Leave side with different arguments. One thing | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
all the Leave people agreed on was the virtue of free trade. For 40 | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
years I have been an party divided over Europe, the one thing we all | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
agree on is how marvellous free traders. Liam Fox still makes the | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
case. Now we are going protection is. | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
That's the wrong. The sippingle market is not free trade much it is | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
protectionism on a European scale of the outside the single market and | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
customs union we can have genuine free trade and people voted to leave | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
the European Union. The single market and customs union are the | :16:29. | :16:31. | |
main stay of the European Union. If we remain in those, we have not left | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
the European Union. Do you accept that? We ruled out staying in. | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
The key thing, for the benefit of our children and grandchildren, if | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
we possible can, stay in the single market and customs union and Jacob | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
agrees with me. I think Jacob mees mog is saying the single mark set | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
San intrinsic part of being in the EU. If you leave the EU, you do | :16:56. | :17:02. | |
leave the single market. It is It is the biggest free trade area the in | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
world. 500 million. It is a free trade area, you don't want to be | :17:08. | :17:10. | |
part of it. It is a regulated ynchts all markets are regulated. It brings | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
ne. U regulation, EU courts and EU law. If we remain until the single | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
market, we remain until the European Union, we have to leave it and we | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
also have, crucially, customs barriers against the rest of the | :17:23. | :17:25. | |
world which in some cases are very high. It is not free trade if we | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
remain in the single market. Do you accept it wasn't explicit in the | :17:31. | :17:33. | |
vote leave campaign, that actually it was left vague enough that | :17:34. | :17:36. | |
somehow there was a reluctance to state very clearly, at that point, | :17:37. | :17:42. | |
that voting to Leave the EU, would automatically, in the minds of the | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
vote Leave campaign, mean leaving the single market? I think that was | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
obvious. It wasn't stated clearly. It might have been obvious to you. | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
Within the campaign it was stated very clearly that once we left, we | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
would need to negotiate a free trade agreement with the European Union. | :17:59. | :18:01. | |
There would have been no need to do that if we remained in the single | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
market and the vote was about leaving the European Union. Yet the | :18:06. | :18:08. | |
single market is the heart, the beating heart of the European Union. | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
If we were still part of, that our blood circulation would be caused by | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
the European Union. Forgive me with the medical analogy. You do accept | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
that leaving the EU meant not being part of the European part, European | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
Commission, not being part of the key EU institutions, including the | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
single market. No, no. Different breaks etteers argued different | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
things during the referendum dch - Brexiteers. But the majority argued | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
that leaving the European Union need have no effect on our economic | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
relationships. People said - this is our biggest single market, the only | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
set of countries with whom we have negotiated, completely free entry | :18:48. | :18:50. | |
for most of our goods and quite a lot of our services, we previously | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
were trying to get more. When we argue that it is very important to | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
our future economics position, Brexiteers said - oh that's all | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
right, they'll give us that because we are so important to them we'll | :19:05. | :19:07. | |
carry on as before. First thing we are doing now, is withdrawing from | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
it all. On that basis, if you say it was obvious to everybody who voted | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
Leave that Britain would then leave the single market because, as you | :19:16. | :19:18. | |
say, it is the beating heart of the EU, does that mean the Government | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
has a mandate it take us out of anything that has EU fingerprints on | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
it? We have a mandate to leave the European Union. Sure. The European | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
aviation safety agency? We don't have to be part - we cannot remaybe | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
part of any European body that is exclusively members of the European | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
Union and has the European Court of Justice as its ultimate arbiter, but | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
on the point of the single market, the EU is in the midst of | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
negotiations with the United States and with Canada to increase access | :19:50. | :19:57. | |
to its market by those countries. It hasn't been ratified the Canadians | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
said and has taken a long time. But it would be bizarre for the European | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
Union to put up trade barriers on a country, which on the day we leave, | :20:07. | :20:09. | |
meets all its regulatory requirements. If they wish to do | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
they'll harm their own economy. They may chose to do that but it would be | :20:13. | :20:19. | |
an eccentric thing for them to do. What do you say about this, that | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
there would be an almost of self-harm to punish Britain, if you | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
like, by leaving the EU, and trying to associate some sort of trade deal | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
which Boris Johnson said, we can have our cake and eat it which for | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
many meant staying part of the single market. Is Jacob Rees-Mogg | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
right, that they won't harm themselves or risking tariffs being | :20:44. | :20:46. | |
put on goods that they would like to import from Britain in these | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
negotiations? Well, there will be some harm to the continental | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
economy, that is right. The things we are asking of them are things | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
they can't possibly concede, that every other country they have any | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
trade relationship with - and some of the weaker Member States, | :21:03. | :21:05. | |
demanding exactly the same. Once you say - we are going to stop free | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
movement of labour, your nationals are going to require work visas if | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
they come in our bit of the single market, once we say we are not going | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
to obey the rules of the market, we are going to make them all British | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
first, but when we can think of one we want to repeal and at the moment | :21:24. | :21:26. | |
the Brexiteers can't, we'll change or we will look for some that we | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
want it change to make them British and we are not going to accept the | :21:31. | :21:33. | |
European Court. Because the European Court. The reason the EU works is | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
the European Court enforces the treaty obligations on 28 governments | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
who wouldn't otherwise agree. The last big case we had there was a | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
triumph because we were able to get into eurozone financial markets. I | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
think Mr Clarke in that answer which shows which remaining in the single | :21:54. | :21:56. | |
market remains leaving in the European Union. Hep doesn't want to | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
leave the European Union, he regrets the vote and staying under the | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
auspices of the European Court of Justice in anyway... Which case have | :22:05. | :22:12. | |
we lost? It is a superior law So is the international court in The | :22:13. | :22:15. | |
Hague. Are we pulling out of them all? No, it applies law that we | :22:16. | :22:23. | |
apply via Parliament which ECJ law is our law amount and doesn't | :22:24. | :22:29. | |
require approval. Give us some example of laws you have been | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
unhappy about or you would appeal? Into well things that affect my | :22:34. | :22:46. | |
farmers, the three crop ru. The ban on neonicotine ooids. The 40-working | :22:47. | :22:53. | |
week when we had a opt-out under the social charter that. 'S the point of | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
it. That the European Court has been a politicising court pushing | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
ever-closer to the European Union. Are there key Ken Clarke decisions | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
One we lost, I was around when it happened, we went there, contrary to | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
our own legal advice, arguing that the working time corrective, the | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
48-hour rule was not a health regulation. The reason Victorians | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
prere stricted hours of work was for health. We lost that. Theresa made | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
it quite clear, one thing we are not going to do is start tightening up | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
on labour regulations, so we are not going take advantage of leaving so | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
people are obliged to work more than 48 hours if they don't want to. A | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
law you would appeal, the minute we have subsupered all that of European | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
law into British law, and then you keep t which would you get rid of | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
it. I would get rid of the three crop rule straightaway. There are | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
hundreds of rules. You say that. Ban chemicals and pesticides, if you | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
think about agriculture. I represent a rural constituency Is and Friends | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
of the Earth there? It would give us freedom to set our own fishing | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
quotas that would benefit our fishermen. We would be able to have | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
light bulb that work so people can see in the dark. There are all sorts | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
of useful issues. People would argue it is not intrinsic for life. We can | :24:15. | :24:21. | |
have all these German car that is are poisoning us and people are | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
trigger the figurers, we wouldn't have to have them. Well, there have | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
been a dramatic fall in the value of sterling, we had already had aer if | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
cast saying there would be a 4% hit to GDP in Brexit and a cathedral the | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
aic drop in tax revenues and today on the front page of the Times | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
leaked papers say that Brexit can cost ?66 billion a year R they all | :24:46. | :24:52. | |
scare stories or are they the bumps in the road It is not a he can laked | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
paper. It is a bad paper it put together, a dishonest Pape ter | :24:58. | :25:00. | |
putted together during the Brexit campaign which said if we left the | :25:01. | :25:03. | |
European Union and imposed tariffs on everybody who sells to us, we | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
would have a bad economic time. It is a completely stupid paper and the | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
Treasury is undermining the Government's own negotiating | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
position and it is really serious that the Treasury is behaving like | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
this Or Or is there any truth? It is an abuse of its position. It is a | :25:20. | :25:25. | |
bogus report. I accept your point that there should be an inquiry. | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
Just on sterling. Well on sterling and reports there could be 5 p a | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
litre on petrol by the end of the week, are they the bumps in the | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
road? Well the oil price has gone up, it always has an faevenlingt | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
well, devaluation, the last two devaluations in this country, 1992, | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
before you took over as Chancellor of the Exchequer, in 1931 when we | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
went for gold standard, led to enormous increases in the prosperity | :25:52. | :25:54. | |
of the country. This is nothing to do with Brexit? No, Brexit has | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
brought forward the devaluation of the knot pound which was considered | :25:59. | :26:06. | |
by the OMF and EOCD to be overvalued. What about that? Well, | :26:07. | :26:12. | |
that is being too technical, the tariffs, that was all settled by the | :26:13. | :26:15. | |
referendum, apparently. But what about devaluation? Since 2006 when | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
we had the financial crash, we have devalued by 40%. We now have the | :26:21. | :26:26. | |
worst current account deficit, usually most people call it the | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
balance of payment, that we have had in our history. The eurosceptic | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
argument that junking your own currency is somehow a marvellous | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
advantage, which they have pedalled for years is, I fear, an illusion, | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
an absolute illusion. The markets did collapse, I agree, given the | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
state of affairs we have, it was probably slightly overvalue bud they | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
collapsed because their judgment was the long-term outlook of the British | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
economy was bad. I mean we are no longer the nift biggest economy in | :26:59. | :27:01. | |
the world, we are the sixth now. Already. And we are going to go | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
further if we are not careful. Briefly and finally, Jacob | :27:08. | :27:09. | |
Rees-Mogg. If being poorer as a nation for a short period of time, | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
you may not believe we are going to be poorer as a nation at all. But if | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
it is the price to pay for what you see as controlling borders and a | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
return of sovereignty, is that worth it? We will be richer we will be | :27:23. | :27:25. | |
outside the dead-handed control of the European Union. We can set our | :27:26. | :27:28. | |
own tariffs, have cheaper goods coming N It ridiculous report from | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
some lobby group yesterday saying the price of goodwill go up. It'll | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
go down. Why? We can reduce tariffs against the rest of the world, which | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
in the EU we can't do. All the scaremongering put to one side and | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
look beautifully, behind you, the picture of broad, sunny uplands. | :27:46. | :27:46. | |
Thank you. Cast your mind back | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
to the Labour party conference and the speech given | :27:51. | :27:53. | |
by Labour's London Mayor, His message - Labour needs to win | :27:54. | :27:54. | |
election to wield real power. Labour out of power will never, | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
ever be good enough. We can only improve lives | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
with Labour in power, by winning elections, | :28:05. | :28:06. | |
by putting Labour values Real Labour values - | :28:07. | :28:08. | |
equality, social justice It's only with Labour in power | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
that we can create a fairer, And when Labour is not in power, | :28:15. | :28:21. | |
we fail the very people Well, today, a left-of-centre think | :28:22. | :28:28. | |
tank, the New Economics Foundation, has published its plan for pursuing | :28:29. | :28:35. | |
policies outside of government, with ideas such as locally produced | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
energy, childcare co-operatives All aimed at giving people more | :28:40. | :28:42. | |
control over their lives. The NEF's Chief Executive, | :28:43. | :28:48. | |
a former speechwriter Welcome to the programme S this | :28:49. | :28:59. | |
added mission that the left are going to be out of power for a | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
generation? No, it begins with the assumption, the truth that we are in | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
a terrible state as a country, that the economy doesn't work for | :29:07. | :29:09. | |
millions of people. That Leave voters, we know they felt they | :29:10. | :29:12. | |
didn't have control and this is' why they voted to leave the European | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
Union but we have polled Remain voters too and found the same | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
output. 25%, just 25% of Remain voters say their voices count in | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
politics. So we are in a mess. We need real change and we can't wait | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
for any general election, whenever that might be. Do you agree with | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
Sadiq Khan, the best way to affect change is to win an election? Where | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
we find ourselves now, is there are new opportunities for change than | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
there have ever been before. Sad evening Khan, as devolved mayor has | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
an opportunity to do things in London which his predecessors | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
couldn't have town down and that will be true in Manchester. There | :29:55. | :29:57. | |
are innovative businesses starting all over the country. Trade unions, | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
interested in create sowing enterprise communities. We live in a | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
time when politics, and general elections matter but there are a | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
different ways of doing things than we have in the past It sounds like | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
you have given up on the mainstream process because it doesn't get | :30:15. | :30:17. | |
things done that people actually want and isn't from your side of the | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
spectrum, if you like. Is there some truth in that, you will be lobbying | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
for power and effective change rather than running the show? Some | :30:27. | :30:29. | |
of my best friends are politicians. You admit That they are important | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
people but all politician, even Ken would acknowledge, we are in a | :30:33. | :30:35. | |
situation where the public has moved away from thinking about mainstream, | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
Westminster, Whitehall politics, as the primary solution to the | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
challenges we face They are looking, people of all parties and none, are | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
looking for new ways, fresh ways of getting things done now, rather than | :30:49. | :30:51. | |
having to wait for a general election. | :30:52. | :30:52. | |
Do you agree with that assessment? I don't. I agree with the analysis | :30:53. | :31:03. | |
of the unsatisfactory state of public opinion whether political | :31:04. | :31:06. | |
class is held with contempt, lots of young people switch off from | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
politics altogether and a lot of old people feel let down by the | :31:11. | :31:13. | |
consequences of automation and change under more complicated world | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
and so on. But in the middle of it all, the real politics, for most | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
mainstream people, concerns the better governance of the country. In | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
the end, you require a government. Government policies affect these | :31:29. | :31:33. | |
things, all our lives, therefore, in the end, holding political power and | :31:34. | :31:40. | |
the ability to put what you believe are issues in the national interest | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
in effect, that is what most politicians had to be about. I have | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
not read this paper, to be fair, but the extracts sent to me rather nice, | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
rather naive, probably, perhaps worth trying, one two, but local | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
experiments that might be tried to see if they have an effect in one or | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
two parts of the country is not governing Britain in a very | :32:06. | :32:08. | |
difficult, dangerous and changing world. It reminded me a little bit | :32:09. | :32:14. | |
of David Cameron's Big Society, locally produced energy, childcare | :32:15. | :32:24. | |
cooperatives, taxi apps run by the drivers. This is small scale | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
solutions run by local people? I just left an event that we are | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
running at The New Economic Foundation, we heard from one career | :32:35. | :32:37. | |
driver paid the London living wage whose every move is tracked by | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
headquarter at head office, who feels as their life has got totally | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
out of control, they can't earn enough to feed their families but | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
their workplace experience is really dire. We have tabbed solutions to | :32:50. | :32:55. | |
those problems. The Government has a big challenge ahead, we have talked | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
about that throughout the programme, the Brexit debate will not go away, | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
Parliamentary time will be sucked up thinking about our relationship with | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
the European Union, but I can't stand there and look in the face of | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
people living with the real troubles of our economy and say, well, we | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
will not do anything because that sounds like Big Society or too | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
small-scale. It is the job of people like as in the think tank world to | :33:21. | :33:28. | |
think about solutions to put in place tomorrow which would change | :33:29. | :33:30. | |
people's lives for the better. Is that a worthwhile cause if, as the | :33:31. | :33:33. | |
accusation goes, the Government will be consumed by Brexit negotiations? | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
There is a real danger that it will be, and we have important things to | :33:38. | :33:43. | |
handle. Obviously I am a former Chancellor and all that, the key to | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
these problems is proper management of the economy, recovering growth, | :33:49. | :33:51. | |
lowering inflation and sustaining it. I quite agree that we have to | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
address how to spread the benefits of our better. Capitalists, | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
free-market enthusiasts, the too long have overlooked the fact that | :34:01. | :34:07. | |
there is a whole section of the population, particularly in the | :34:08. | :34:09. | |
change industrial North and North Midlands, left behind. Start with | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
the good governance of the country, having the right Chancellor, not Mr | :34:14. | :34:16. | |
McDonnell, then look at all these things that might spread the | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
benefits better and make sure people don't fall through the gaps. Thank | :34:21. | :34:30. | |
you very much becoming in, Mark. -- for coming in. | :34:31. | :34:32. | |
My guest of the day - Ken Clarke - has enjoyed a political | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
He served as Health Secretary, Education Secretary, | :34:36. | :34:38. | |
Home Secretary and Chancellor of the Exchequer in | :34:39. | :34:39. | |
He was then called back into frontline politics by David Cameron, | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
joining the Cabinet as Justice Secretary in 2010. | :34:44. | :34:45. | |
He's just published his memoirs, "Kind of Blue", and we'll talk | :34:46. | :34:48. | |
a bit about Ken's life in politics in just a moment. | :34:49. | :34:50. | |
# Seas would rise when I gave the word. | :34:51. | :35:09. | |
MUSIC PLAYS: Viva La Vida by Coldplay. | :35:10. | :35:31. | |
Apologies for presenting this first Budget rather like a lion tamer | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
trying out his act for the first time, but I've decided | :35:37. | :35:39. | |
to tackle the difficulties I face in a direct way. | :35:40. | :35:50. | |
Go away, lie down in a dark room, keep taking the tablets | :35:51. | :35:57. | |
and think very carefully whether the Liberal Democrats | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
have a single opinion one way or the other on the merits of any | :36:02. | :36:04. | |
We're searching for a leader who will be seen by the public | :36:05. | :36:12. | |
Well, oh, boy, have you kept me waiting! | :36:13. | :36:27. | |
Theresa's a bloody difficult woman, but you and I worked | :36:28. | :36:29. | |
Ken Clarke, you were enjoying that? I haven't seen some of those clips | :36:30. | :36:52. | |
for ages, did not know they existed. You have been in politics for a very | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
long time, as we can see from Buzz archive clips. How has it changed in | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
your view, and has changed for the better? In some ways are probably | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
has. It was deferential and class divided when I started, there was a | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
huge difference between the tweedy nights on the shires on the | :37:10. | :37:18. | |
Conservative benches on the very working class guys on the Labour | :37:19. | :37:20. | |
benches, it was tribal. Most families voted the same way all the | :37:21. | :37:23. | |
time. Do you not think it is tribal? An awful lot of people under the age | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
of 50 decide who they will vote for two or three days before polling | :37:28. | :37:33. | |
day, which makes it so exciting but uncertain. In other ways it has | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
diminished, because Parliament was more powerful when I started. | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
Everything was rooted in Parliament. Although things were a bit too | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
deferential, Government was properly accountable, very collective. | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
Cabinet ministers had to agree things. The Parliament and the Prime | :37:51. | :37:56. | |
Minister was a powerful first among equals. Sensible debate took place | :37:57. | :38:01. | |
in the media, who were a bit too deferential but reported serious | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
issues. Now it is all celebrity culture, public relations, can we | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
get something about simply's sex life all money? If not, what | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
exciting thing can we hang the news on two? Has that grabs your style, | :38:17. | :38:22. | |
this practice of modern politics about message discipline, sticking | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
to the line, media grids and so on? Have you find that difficult? I have | :38:28. | :38:33. | |
totally ignored it! But has not escaped a goodness, thank -- that is | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
not escaped our notice, thank goodness. David was very kind, I | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
went football years without going along with this stuff. I think there | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
was a Ken Clarke rule. I think it has damaged politics, the talking | :38:48. | :38:50. | |
clock type of politics and the slogan eyes is not the main thing | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
but is one of the things that has fed a low level of regard for | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
politicians. Good god you say that David Cameron and his acolytes gave | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
you free rein or just accepted that Ken Clarke was Ken Clarke, but you | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
said you felt plotted against an deceived when he discovered in 2014, | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
and I remember this happening, that Downing Street advisers were trying | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
to stop you from appearing on Question Time. Why? Because they | :39:16. | :39:21. | |
were not sure what I would say and I would not use the slogan. It was a | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
silly, childish incident. The way they went about it, which I will | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
discuss if you want me to come in time, it was lying to me and the | :39:31. | :39:36. | |
producer and trying to slip in the more, in their opinion, conformist | :39:37. | :39:42. | |
advocate. How did they explain it to you? Said the programme had made a | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
mistake and book two conservatives, so unfortunately they were sticking | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
with the other one, that they would have me on some time in future. The | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
producer was called by the same people and told I was very ill, and | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
this was not being made public because it was a personal health | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
matter, I was not able to go, and they, very helpfully, could provide | :40:05. | :40:07. | |
simply to take my place at very short notice. It never occurred to | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
them but I would ring the producer and said, I thought we had fixed | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
this ages ago, what went wrong? They miscalculated. You served three | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
Conservative prime ministers, how did they compared? They were all | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
quite remarkable people, completely and utterly different personalities. | :40:27. | :40:33. | |
Ted and Margaret were two of the most one of personalities I have | :40:34. | :40:35. | |
ever met, unlike each other, chalk and cheese. John Major was the | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
ultimate nice guy being battered hopelessly. Cameron was the classic | :40:40. | :40:46. | |
purveyor of the Blair style of Government. Very successful at | :40:47. | :40:49. | |
first. He will not be given credit for it but Cameron and Osborne | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
rescued the country from financial catastrophe. Thereafter, they got | :40:55. | :41:00. | |
into... Back to the old politics, although Thatcher was a bloody | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
difficult woman... You need to be careful with that phrase! And I had | :41:05. | :41:10. | |
a very robust relationship with her, she was the best Prime Minister, I | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
had to concede. The Thatcher Government was the one that | :41:15. | :41:17. | |
transformed the country for the better. The Major Government | :41:18. | :41:23. | |
consolidated and continued it in the same way, presented slightly more | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
gently, but Thatcher was the remarkable one to work for. | :41:28. | :41:30. | |
Do you think you changed yourself for the perception of how you were | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
viewed by other politicians? Chewing the coalition, Nick Clegg voted -- | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
joked that he counted you as one of the Lib Dems, the Spectator called | :41:41. | :41:49. | |
you yellow can. Did you acquire a more cuddly image? I said to Nick | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
Clegg, you are a one nation Conservative. You only joined the | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
Lib Dems because we were so fanatically anti-European at that | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
time. Leaving that to one side, politics | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
has moved. I am a believer in free market economic is with the social | :42:10. | :42:16. | |
consequence -- conscience, I am an economic and social liberal. UR a | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
diminishing breed on the Conservative benches? The Europeans | :42:23. | :42:25. | |
remain in the majority on the Conservative benches, as in every | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
other political party in the House of Commons, apart from the | :42:30. | :42:32. | |
Democratic Unionists, but we are all slightly isolated. Being one of the | :42:33. | :42:38. | |
stronger pro-Europeans who never agreed with the idea of a referendum | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
anyway, with a constituency that voted to Remain, I am probably a bit | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
on my own, but that happens to most bedroom politicians. And does not | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
bother you? Not at all. We will have to do your addiction to standing for | :42:53. | :42:54. | |
the leadership another time. Jeremy Corbyn took part | :42:55. | :42:56. | |
in the regular Monday night meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party | :42:57. | :42:59. | |
last night - his first MPs had a chance to raise concerns | :43:00. | :43:01. | |
ranging from the recent reshuffle The Labour Leader was also asked why | :43:02. | :43:05. | |
he had attended an anti-racism rally over the weekend that was allegedly | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
linked to the far-left group the Socialist Workers' | :43:11. | :43:12. | |
Party, which critics say It was founded as the Socialist | :43:13. | :43:30. | |
Review Group in 1950. It describes itself as a rational -- | :43:31. | :43:33. | |
revolutionary socialist group. They have been involved in various | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
campaigns over the years, for example former leading members of | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
the SWP helped to set up the Stop The War Coalition to campaign | :43:43. | :43:48. | |
against the invasion of Iraq in 2003. In 2013, the SWP was mired in | :43:49. | :43:55. | |
controversy because, it was claimed, they mishandled sexual assault | :43:56. | :43:57. | |
allegations against an individual who was at the time one of their | :43:58. | :43:59. | |
members. We invited the SWP onto the | :44:00. | :44:07. | |
programme, but they declined. They also said that Standard To Racism is | :44:08. | :44:12. | |
not a front organisation for the is to be be. So Steve Hart, the | :44:13. | :44:18. | |
vice-chair of Standard To Racism joins us, along with a Labour | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
supporting journalist, James Bloodworth. Steve, you helped to | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
organise this event on Saturday, what was it about and were Socialist | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
workers involved? First of all, I am Labour supporting, I am the chair of | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
the biggest constituency Labour Party in the country. It was an | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
event about confronting anti-Semitism, Islamophobia and | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
racism. It was particularly focusing around issues of refugees and, | :44:45. | :44:50. | |
indeed, the racist atmosphere that had begun to develop in some places | :44:51. | :44:56. | |
after Brexit. It was 1400 people. And the Socialist Workers' Party's | :44:57. | :45:02. | |
involvement is what? They were involved, as they have been in many | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
things, fighting fascism over the years. Are they a dominant force in | :45:08. | :45:13. | |
Standard To Racism? One of their leading figures is co-convenor? That | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
is right. They are not a dominant force, they are participants in | :45:19. | :45:23. | |
Stand Up To Racism, along with many, many others. Alf Dubs was one of the | :45:24. | :45:28. | |
speakers on Saturday. And he has campaigned for child refugees to be | :45:29. | :45:34. | |
taken in. He has been a participant all the way through. The Muslim | :45:35. | :45:36. | |
Council of Britain has been involved. What was the problem? With | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
Jeremy Corbyn attending this rally? I wroo call them a front group for | :45:42. | :45:51. | |
far left groups. The socialist Workers' Party is not a very - | :45:52. | :45:58. | |
Trotskyism isn't popular so they form front groups around issues | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
which are more pop larks anti-racism, anti--er with a and use | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
it to try to recruit members. In case of the socialist Workers' | :46:06. | :46:08. | |
Party, it is an organisation which many of us believe isn't safe for | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
women. There was a scandal around 2013. We objected to the leader of | :46:13. | :46:18. | |
the Labour Party giving it kind of - making this organisation credible | :46:19. | :46:24. | |
where you have someone like Weyman Bennett who is at the top of this | :46:25. | :46:27. | |
organisation Do you accept that criticism. Associating yourself with | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
this organisation and the Labour MP, Jeff Phillips certainly said there | :46:34. | :46:36. | |
shouldn't be a connection in what will you are trying to do in Stand | :46:37. | :46:42. | |
Up to Racism, and the Socialist Workers' Party because of the way | :46:43. | :46:45. | |
they mishandled sexual assault allegations. Well, I think she is | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
fantastic in what she does. Jess Phillips spoke at one of our rallies | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
in April 2015. She obviously didn't, at that point, see that as an issue. | :46:56. | :47:01. | |
The SWP, as you have said, had serious issues around this. But | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
then, so did the BBC, so did the Catholic Church. I'm here today, I'm | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
not boycotting the BBC. The police have investigated those allegations. | :47:12. | :47:19. | |
The problem with the SDW, they persuaded women who were victims of | :47:20. | :47:22. | |
sexual assault not to go to the police. And there are groups who | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
persuade their members not to go to the rally. There is an extensive | :47:27. | :47:32. | |
list of people, are they all wrong? I saw a call for boycotting last | :47:33. | :47:39. | |
Tuesday. 1500 people from up and down the country, from groups | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
supporting refugees in Calais, and other groups that had already signed | :47:44. | :47:46. | |
up to this. They are people who want to come. We are well aware of the | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
situation. - who are well aware of the situation. For me, what really | :47:52. | :47:54. | |
matters is let's try and find what unites us. I think we should be | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
doing more, Government made some moves yesterday but we really need | :47:59. | :48:01. | |
to get the children fromical clay. Sure Tonight I'm going to a vigil in | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
Tottenham because a woman had her hijab torn off her. A lot of people | :48:07. | :48:13. | |
are coming together, Stand Up to To Racism is organising that. People | :48:14. | :48:16. | |
uniting against racism is a good thing. That's my politics. The | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
socialist Workers' Party are not serious on the issue of | :48:22. | :48:23. | |
anti-Semitism. This is an organisation that believes in the | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
objectlies of the state of Israel. For most people it is an | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
anti-Semitic place it start N I don't think they should be involved | :48:32. | :48:34. | |
in an anti-racist campaign. If you are not serious about anti-Semitism, | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
you cannot be serious about anti-racism across the board I'm the | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
vice chair and I'm extremely serious about anti-Semitism and I'm | :48:45. | :48:50. | |
extremely - regard it as extremely important that our organisation will | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
stand up to racism. How do you feel about the People in the Socialist | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
Workers Party that don't? Every time they have spoken about t it is | :49:01. | :49:03. | |
clear, anti-Semitism is a problem. They along with others, have been | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
campaigning around Irishes of anti-Semitism, recently. Do you | :49:09. | :49:11. | |
think you are diminishing the value of your protests n terms of | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
anti-racism, in terms of campaigning on behalf of child refugees, by | :49:17. | :49:21. | |
association with the Socialist Workers Party when you come up with | :49:22. | :49:29. | |
criticism by people like James Bloodworth and Jess Phillips? Well | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
my opinion and I'm not on the far left, I actually voted for Owen | :49:35. | :49:36. | |
Smith. I want to bring people together. Where there are issues | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
around racism, I want to bring everybody together. I would like to | :49:41. | :49:53. | |
see Mrs Varsi, we had had Tim Farron taking place in our rallies. I have | :49:54. | :49:57. | |
huge respect for the anti-racism campaign but I would say they are | :49:58. | :50:03. | |
being used by the SWP by group to recruit to their party. Similar Stop | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
the War. It is a supporter of the regime in North Korea. These are | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
regimes that people of left or right should be wanting to distance | :50:13. | :50:17. | |
themselves from. You don't want to see Jeremy Corbyn attending these? | :50:18. | :50:22. | |
Absolutely not. It lends credibility to them of which there should be | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
none. Could self-build homes be the answer | :50:28. | :50:30. | |
to England's housing shortage? From later this month, | :50:31. | :50:32. | |
councils in England will be obliged to sell plots of land to anyone | :50:33. | :50:35. | |
wanting to build their own home, and supporters of the idea reckon it | :50:36. | :50:38. | |
will help increase the supply Mark Lobel has been | :50:39. | :50:41. | |
to the Netherlands to see how A great place for boats, | :50:42. | :50:43. | |
tulips and museums. If you want to go house hunting | :50:44. | :50:51. | |
here, what better way I've | :50:52. | :50:53. | |
joined a delegation of British MPs, planners, and industry | :50:54. | :51:00. | |
insiders in search of well, not a standard build | :51:01. | :51:02. | |
but a self-build or custom-built house on a piece of land | :51:03. | :51:08. | |
with all the utilities I feel like I'm on the set | :51:09. | :51:10. | |
of Grand Designs. First stop is Europe's biggest | :51:11. | :51:17. | |
experiment in affordable I'm just asking because there are no | :51:18. | :51:20. | |
windows on the front of your house. People are thinking that | :51:21. | :51:31. | |
I love my privacy and I do, but it has nothing to do | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
with my neighbours. And when it's dark, you can't | :51:37. | :51:38. | |
see anything outside. Can I join you on your building | :51:39. | :51:45. | |
site? They build it, put it on a big truck | :51:46. | :51:53. | |
and they set it up in one day. There is an equivalent city | :51:54. | :52:05. | |
of custom-built houses Gravenhill in Oxfordshire | :52:06. | :52:17. | |
will accommodate almost 2,000 homes. Visiting Holland, these Cherwell | :52:18. | :52:22. | |
district councillors are on the board of Gravenhill | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
Village Development Company, a commercial operation | :52:27. | :52:28. | |
owned by the council. What Gravenhill provides | :52:29. | :52:31. | |
is the land, the plot, a significant We are also looking at things | :52:32. | :52:34. | |
like planning and This isn't a big grand design, | :52:35. | :52:37. | |
you need to have cash in the bank. This is about how can | :52:38. | :52:46. | |
you build your dream home at different levels of your life | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
and spending different But at the moment the UK | :52:50. | :52:51. | |
lags behind its European neighbours and America, | :52:52. | :52:54. | |
with only one-tenth of its housing stock from self | :52:55. | :52:56. | |
or custom-built houses. Government land is sold | :52:57. | :52:58. | |
through an agency called the Homes and Communities Agency | :52:59. | :53:05. | |
and their legal documents You need to sit down with mortgage | :53:06. | :53:07. | |
providers and persuade them it's going to be worth their while to | :53:08. | :53:15. | |
adjust their computer systems to providing staged payment | :53:16. | :53:17. | |
mortgages for custom builds. A senior figure in the mortgage | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
industry on the visit told me self-build mortgages require | :53:22. | :53:24. | |
a 20% larger deposit than conventional builds, | :53:25. | :53:27. | |
that available land Well, I wrote the Self Build and | :53:28. | :53:28. | |
Custom House Building Act and got it That's now been strengthened | :53:29. | :53:37. | |
by the Government in this year's So, there's a further obligation | :53:38. | :53:40. | |
on local councils to actually provide serviced plots of land, | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
enough planning permission with serviced plots of land to deal | :53:46. | :53:53. | |
with the demand as evidenced The Ministry of Defence's head | :53:54. | :53:56. | |
of accommodation policy was also investigating custom | :53:57. | :54:02. | |
house-building here. The MoD wants more staff | :54:03. | :54:03. | |
on the housing ladder and is considering self-build | :54:04. | :54:05. | |
for service personnel. The ministry of the defence has more | :54:06. | :54:07. | |
than 2% of the land in the UK. They need quite a lot | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
of that for training. They don't need all of it | :54:13. | :54:14. | |
and they are looking at selling it I'm saying they should be a bit more | :54:15. | :54:17. | |
imaginative about how they do that So maybe one day more land could be | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
available for custom housing and members of the Armed Forces | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
could be able to design We've been joined in the studio | :54:27. | :54:29. | |
by Michael Holmes, chair of the National Custom | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
Self Build Association. Welcome to the programme. Do you | :54:35. | :54:41. | |
really think they could actually help solve the housing shortage? | :54:42. | :54:43. | |
This could be a significant part of house building. You have seen the | :54:44. | :54:49. | |
figures where it is provided elsewhere in Europe, America, Japan, | :54:50. | :54:52. | |
Australia, New Zealand. Developed economies have a major owner | :54:53. | :54:54. | |
commissioned sector in which the people who live in the houses get | :54:55. | :54:58. | |
involved in the design and construction. It is in their | :54:59. | :55:01. | |
interests to do so. But the problem is still available land. The problem | :55:02. | :55:04. | |
we face here and the planning law that is go along with T how do you | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
go over that? Right-to-build edge legislation which commences on | :55:10. | :55:12. | |
October 31st will be a game change. Land at the moment comes to market | :55:13. | :55:19. | |
as major strategic building sites that only the major house builders | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
can access and land for the smaller sector is more or less dried up. It | :55:24. | :55:27. | |
is an issue with the planning system. Right-to-build legislation | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
places a duty on local authorities to build forward sites that are | :55:32. | :55:35. | |
broken up to access plots. They'll become available for individuals who | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
would like to buy and commission and build their own homes, it could be | :55:41. | :55:46. | |
DIY. But most likely an SME. DIY that could take me ten years. Isn't | :55:47. | :55:51. | |
it for people who have some money, rather than affordable Currently, | :55:52. | :55:55. | |
you need a substantial deposit to be able it self-build. Only large plots | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
come to market. 20% higher we heard in the film. However that may not be | :56:00. | :56:06. | |
the case. Elsewhere in Europe they have a scheme called, I Builds | :56:07. | :56:09. | |
Affordal where the local authority owns or you lease the land for them. | :56:10. | :56:15. | |
You only have the cost of the build. Land is 60 to # 0%. If you take that | :56:16. | :56:21. | |
component out and lease it on a fair rent you only have the cost of | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
building t makes it much more affordable. What about the look. One | :56:26. | :56:27. | |
of the biggest complaints from neighbours when their neighbours are | :56:28. | :56:30. | |
building a house s what it'll look like. Yes, dove he sign codes, if | :56:31. | :56:33. | |
you are Conservative and you would like to make sure your neighbour | :56:34. | :56:39. | |
looks similar to yours, you choose a plot with a restricted design code | :56:40. | :56:42. | |
which tells you, within this glass box, the space you can fill. If you | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
are more avanlt guard you can chose an area where there is more freedom. | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
Do you think this'll go down well in your constituency? Interesting. I | :56:52. | :56:56. | |
think would be great rows about the ate peerns of them in my | :56:57. | :57:00. | |
constituency is the honest assessment. I'm not sure my | :57:01. | :57:04. | |
constituency is the kind of place that Michael is aiming at anyway. It | :57:05. | :57:10. | |
can be apartments. My DIY is limited to changing a light bulb. I find it | :57:11. | :57:15. | |
interesting. Nothing puts me off. I think it can make a contribution. I | :57:16. | :57:19. | |
think the bigger problems in housing should keep trying it tackle, go | :57:20. | :57:23. | |
beyond this, we have big problems of speeding up the planning system | :57:24. | :57:26. | |
which is slowly happening and then the delays between planning consent | :57:27. | :57:30. | |
and building and housing finance and the fact it is all dominated by big | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
developers, who have no incentive whatever to get on with building and | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
there aren't enough small plots. Other countries don't have to do t | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
this DIY, many other countries a lot of homes are one-off which the | :57:44. | :57:46. | |
owners have commissioned themselves from a small builder Precisely. And | :57:47. | :57:52. | |
they have, you know, proper housing - a house that takes longer to | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
build. That's custom build and that's what we think should be | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
happening. It is owner commissioned housing, not DIY. A small proportion | :58:00. | :58:04. | |
to the market, 10%, the big growth proposition is small SME builders | :58:05. | :58:09. | |
and packaged companies that can build off plans and kit, helping | :58:10. | :58:12. | |
people to have their own individual design quickly, it is a whole area | :58:13. | :58:15. | |
of housing that appeals to the market that don't want to buy the | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
new builds of major house builders. Can you built one? I have built my | :58:20. | :58:25. | |
own home. The DIY proportion was small. I left it to the | :58:26. | :58:28. | |
professionals. Most people do. Time to find out the answer to our quiz. | :58:29. | :58:33. | |
The question was, "What is Theresa May reported to have banned | :58:34. | :58:36. | |
So, Ken, what is the correct answer? | :58:37. | :58:42. | |
It's Apple watches. Do you have one? No, I have a mobile | :58:43. | :58:48. | |
phone. It is switched off. If anybody wanted to intercept our | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
conversation for the last hour, they should do. So you shouldn't take | :58:52. | :58:57. | |
this into account. I'm in the banning anything from our studio | :58:58. | :59:02. | |
today. That's it. Thank you to Ken Clarke for | :59:03. | :59:03. |