Browse content similar to 27/10/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Welcome to the Daily Politics. still driver England and Wales. | :01:01. | :01:00. | |
Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell has accused the Government of planning | :01:01. | :01:20. | |
And we head to Richmond to ask people there whether Heathrow | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
expansion or Brexit will be more important to them when casting | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
The reason I chose Brexit is, it's going to have an immediate effect on | :01:27. | :01:37. | |
me, whereas Heathrow I don't think will ever happen. | :01:38. | :01:45. | |
All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
of the programme today is the Labour peer Baroness Prosser. | :01:49. | :01:50. | |
Margaret is a former Deputy General Secretary at the Transport | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
and General Workers Union and she now sits on the Joint | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
Committee on Human Rights Committee in Parliament. | :01:58. | :01:59. | |
Now, this morning, we've heard that Nissan has confirmed it will build | :02:00. | :02:06. | |
both the new Qashqai and the X-Trail SUV at its Sunderland plant | :02:07. | :02:14. | |
in the first major development for the car industry | :02:15. | :02:16. | |
The Japanese company's commitment to Britain's biggest car plant had | :02:17. | :02:24. | |
been in doubt following the referendum. | :02:25. | :02:31. | |
And with GDP figures out today which show the British economy | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
bucking expectations of substantial slowdown, it looks as if Brexiteers | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
The Office for National Statistics showed that between July | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
and September, the economy grew by 0.5%. | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
The Chancellor, Philip Hammond, said he was pleased by the figures. | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
The economy has proved to be very resilient. | :02:57. | :02:58. | |
We went into the referendum, I think the figures now | :02:59. | :03:00. | |
show, stronger than we thought at the time. | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
And the economy has held up very well since. | :03:07. | :03:08. | |
But we are going to have a period of uncertainty ahead, | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
as business waits to see the outcome of the European Union negotiations. | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
And we have to make sure that we are prepared and ready | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
to support the economy during that period, to make sure that we get | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
a successful outcome to the negotiations and successfully | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
support the economy through that period. | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
Before the European referendum, predictions were being made | :03:32. | :03:34. | |
of an immediate and significant impact on the UK economy | :03:35. | :03:37. | |
David Cameron said it would put a bomb under the UK economy. | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
George Osborne warned of a DIY recession. | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
But so far, these predictions have not come to pass. | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
So, how has the economy been faring since the 23rd of June? | :03:52. | :03:57. | |
The star bakers in the economic kitchen have been producing | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
As we've been hearing, GDP grew by 0.5% between July | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
That's better than expected - the Bank of England had predicted | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
The employment rate is currently 74.5% - | :04:11. | :04:23. | |
that's the joint highest it's been since records began in the '70s. | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
And consumer confidence has also been looking tasty - | :04:29. | :04:31. | |
in September, the retail sales figure was up over 4% | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
But it hasn't all been sugar-coated - there have been some | :04:35. | :04:41. | |
The pound has been falling pretty steadily against the dollar. | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
It reached a 31-year low earlier this month, although it has | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
Inflation jumped to 1% in September and that's bitter | :04:51. | :04:57. | |
The CPI index is the highest it's been for nearly two years. | :04:58. | :05:05. | |
And at the weekend, the British Bankers' Association | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
warned that there could be an exodus from the City early next year. | :05:10. | :05:19. | |
According to the lobbying group, banks are poised to hit | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
Joining me now are Baroness Patience Wheatcroft and Liam Halligan. | :05:23. | :05:33. | |
Welcome to you both. Most of these short-term predictions haven't come | :05:34. | :05:42. | |
true, have they? Things have not got bad yet but they will. But we were | :05:43. | :05:48. | |
told that they would be bad by now, that it was going to be an immediate | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
effect, a vote to leave said the Treasury "Would cause an immediate | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
and profound economic shock". The Treasury was slightly exaggerating. | :05:58. | :06:04. | |
Any decision that was taken ahead of Brexit would take some time to | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
impact. It wasn't just the Treasury, it was David Cameron, George | :06:11. | :06:13. | |
Osborne, the Bank of England, the IMF, the OECD and the World Bank. | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
They all said the impact would be immediate and they were wrong. They | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
were wrong, the impact hasn't been immediate, but it is already | :06:23. | :06:29. | |
impacting on banks that are having their finger poised on the trigger. | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
We don't know that to be true, could you name a bank that has its finger | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
poised on the trigger? I certainly could. HSBC is thinking about what | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
to do. HSBC has ruled out leaving, it spent 18 months relocating its | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
headquarters to Hong Kong and decided it would stay here. They are | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
not going to move everybody out but they will move people, and they are | :06:54. | :06:56. | |
going to move people. They going to move people? I did think so. This is | :06:57. | :07:03. | |
a lot of bluster and hot air. Nissan said in 2002 if we didn't join the | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
euro they would leave the UK, they said if we voted for Brexit they | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
would leave the UK. They've just confirmed they are going to increase | :07:12. | :07:18. | |
their investment. It's part of a CEO's drop to occasionally hold a | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
gun to the government's head. But we don't know what Nissan has been | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
promised... I agree, I think the government should have called their | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
bluff. I think they took advantage of an inexperienced government. We | :07:33. | :07:34. | |
don't know what the government has done yet but is probably no more | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
than the French government would have done. Nevertheless it's a deal | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
that has obviously been done behind closed doors. What does it matter if | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
it results in the production of cars in Sunderland, for which there was a | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
question over it, is going to go from 475,000 a year to 600,000 a | :07:51. | :07:57. | |
year. Over 7000 jobs secured. It will become a super plant in | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
Sunderland. Not one but two new cars will be produced. It depends how | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
much you are paying for it, and we don't know how much we are paying | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
for it. It would have to be a lot for it not to be worth it. It | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
probably would be a lot and it would be a lot that would have to be paid | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
to other car manufacturers. What about other jobs in manufacturing? I | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
share your reticence on this. I think governments have to face down | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
big powerful manufacturers and other companies and the financial services | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
industry too. We've got to show confidence. There is a case to | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
invest in the UK on its own merits. We've just been voted one of the | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
best places in the world to do business. It's not all good news. | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
Even in the short term the 0.5% third-quarter figure is much | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
stronger than project fear forecasted. But, the only sector to | :08:52. | :09:04. | |
grow was services. Every other sector, construction, manufacturing, | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
industrial production, all down. I agree. I've written two years my | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
concerns about the imbalances in the UK economy. I think, yes, we have a | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
hard GDP number now for a post-Brexit vote quarter but it's a | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
preliminary number. I'm not crowing about this number as a Brexiteer. | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
There's still a lot of imbalances, I'm concerned about the amount of Q | :09:27. | :09:33. | |
E we are still talking about, the fact we've just cut interest rates. | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
I'm not completely happy but it's clear that the Treasury and other | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
fear mongers need to take a bow. The issue with, if they got the forecast | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
of the last three months wrong, if they couldn't even tell us what was | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
going to happen in July, August and September, why would you trust them | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
to tell us what's happening in 3-5 years' time? I didn't think you | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
should trust economists to tell you what's going to happen at any stage. | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
It was used during the referendum campaign. I would rather wait and | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
see what happens. Brexit was the vote taken in June. Any decisions | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
taken after that will not have taken effect yet. These are long-term | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
decisions. Wait until next year when you see inflation kicking in at 6-7% | :10:20. | :10:28. | |
in food prices, maybe even more. The British consumer will then have to | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
lock down. We don't know by how much, but it's there to wish you as | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
Patience Wheatcroft says, inflation will rise. There are two dangers | :10:39. | :10:47. | |
here. One is there's a danger that prices will rise faster than wages. | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
That will cripple consumers spending which is almost 70% of the economy. | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
The second is because of the inevitable uncertainty, both | :10:59. | :11:00. | |
domestic business investment and foreign direct investment are likely | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
to go on pause. Both of these could slow the economy next year. I | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
completely agree. I said before the referendum and have said since, | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
clearly however Brexit is done there's going to be an impact on the | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
long-term decisions of businessmen and women who make real moves with | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
money rather than sitting in TV studios aren't talking about it. | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
That's why I don't want a long, drawn-out row with the rest of the | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
European Union that will make us look very business unfriendly. | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
That's why I want a clean Brexit. That will minimise the inevitable | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
business uncertainty. I'm afraid the truth is we don't know what we are | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
doing the country. We've got three Brexiteers who are complaining that | :11:45. | :11:46. | |
people in Europe and being very nice to them. Who's complaining? Liam | :11:47. | :11:55. | |
Fox. Had he said that. I paraphrase. He was upset by the reception he was | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
getting and he thought we should get a more positive reception. I thought | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
he had been mainly going to Canada, Australia... I think we should kick | :12:04. | :12:17. | |
this Eurocrats into touch. The news for Sunderland is fantastic this | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
morning, isn't it? It is very good. I hope also that the government will | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
recognise that all the eggs in the basket of Nissan went to be healthy | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
for the area. There needs to be infrastructure and jobs down the | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
line based in that area, so that everybody benefits. It looks like | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
the plant itself is going to expand and that will have both direct and | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
indirect impact in the north-east. It will. It has among the highest | :12:45. | :12:51. | |
productivity of any car plant in the world. People in the north-east, | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
despite the fact many of them have had jobs at Nissan for a long time, | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
voted in big numbers to come out of Europe. They must have felt | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
dissatisfied with how the economy was treating them. So I do think | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
account has got to be taken of all of that. What's the knock-on effect | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
for people in the north-east and many of them it's going to be good, | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
but don't leave out those on the periphery. I surprised a lot of the | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
short-term forecasts have turned out to be far more gloomy than the | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
reality? No, I'm not surprised. I thought it would be gloomy. It's | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
been far less gloomy. The forecasts were more gloomy than the reality. | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
The Treasury was forecasting with enter recession. The reality for | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
some people is pretty gloomy, isn't it? What goes on at a macro level is | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
one thing. What happens when you go out and you change your pound notes | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
into euros and you find you don't get as many year rose as you would | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
have liked. You were talking a moment ago about immediate effects. | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
Between June and September, three months, that's pretty quick in the | :14:06. | :14:08. | |
great scheme of things. People going on holiday, lots of people on what | :14:09. | :14:15. | |
you might call ordinary wages go to European countries on holiday | :14:16. | :14:17. | |
because traditionally that has been a good bargain. They find that | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
actually was much more expensive than they thought. What's more | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
important to the future of the country, the ability for people to | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
go abroad on holiday cheaply or the ability of Nissan and Jaguar and | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
Rolls-Royce and British Aerospace to sell their goods abroad more | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
competitively? Why does that have to be an either or? Because the | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
currency makes it an either or. The country would go round in a much | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
more happy and beneficial way if more people had more money in their | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
pockets to put into the economy to spend so it comes back. That's | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
what's been going wrong... Which may be a difficulty next year if | :15:00. | :15:00. | |
installation starts rising. There are reports you are part of a | :15:01. | :15:11. | |
group of peers plotting to undo the referendum result. What is the | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
truth? There was certainly no plot. I think there are a number of | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
people, both in and out of the House of Lords, who very much regret the | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
decision that was taken... But what are you trying to do? We feel there | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
should be a vote in parliament. This is all about sovereignty of | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
Parliament, sovereignty of the country. The sovereignty of | :15:34. | :15:35. | |
Parliament demands that this should not be a decision pressing the | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
button on Article 50 just for the Prime Minister. It is too much for | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
any individual to take. But the country voted on June 23, over 17 | :15:45. | :15:51. | |
million people, to do just this. What gives you, as an unelected | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
peer, any democratic legitimacy in this? The country voted not by an | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
overwhelming majority, but nevertheless, the country voted in | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
favour of Brexit not knowing what Brexit means and we are still told | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
that Brexit means Brexit. We don't know what it means. But who elected | :16:07. | :16:13. | |
you? I'm not elected. So what gives you any democratic legitimacy on | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
this? I don't have a right to overturn the will of the people at | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
all. But you would vote against triggering article 50. Until we are | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
clear on what lies ahead. So you would interfere with the will of the | :16:28. | :16:30. | |
people. As an unelected peer, you would vote against the wishes of | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
17.4 million people on June 23. It might be in the House of Lords that | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
we vote against what you call the will of the people, it may well be. | :16:41. | :16:48. | |
The House of Lords has a duty to say to the Commons, just think about | :16:49. | :16:51. | |
this, make sure before you do it. It is not a right to overturn but it is | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
a duty. But what is the point of voting against it if you don't | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
overturn it? To let more detail come through so that we know what it is | :17:01. | :17:06. | |
we are voting for. If we reverse this, I'm afraid a lot of the | :17:07. | :17:09. | |
public's faith in mainstream politics will be severely dented in | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
this country. I think a lot of people are feeling deeply | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
uncomfortable by the rising tide of nationalism. But the majority voted. | :17:17. | :17:23. | |
It was a clear majority. The Government were handing out leaflets | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
to people's home is saying, the Government will input your decision. | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
I'd only the kid is possible to vote against the will of the people. That | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
would cause mayhem. Thank you both for being with us. | :17:38. | :17:39. | |
The question for today is, who did the Queen mistake Vladimir Putin | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
You had to be named Andrew before you were mistaken, clearly! | :17:44. | :18:04. | |
At the end of the show, Margaret will give us | :18:05. | :18:06. | |
I have very bad form on quizzes on this answer! Fortunately, I know the | :18:07. | :18:16. | |
answer. You will have to whisper it to me! | :18:17. | :18:18. | |
So, the announcement about Nissan has rather overshadowed | :18:19. | :18:20. | |
the speech this morning which the Shadow Chancellor | :18:21. | :18:22. | |
In it, he warned the Government against carrying out a "bankers' | :18:23. | :18:28. | |
Brexit" at the expense of the rest of the overall economy, | :18:29. | :18:31. | |
urging it not to ignore the needs of small businesses. | :18:32. | :18:33. | |
Already, Tory Cabinet members are looking to cook up special | :18:34. | :18:35. | |
deals for their friends in the City of London. | :18:36. | :18:38. | |
They want a bankers' Brexit in the interests of the elite | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
They'll be willing to cut a deal for finance but ignore | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
our small businesses and many of our manufacturers. | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
Let me be clear - those who have voted Conservative in 2015 are not | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
Like me, you have friends who voted Conservative. | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
They don't want a bankers' Brexit any more than I do. | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
The simple truth is that the Tory establishment cannot be trusted | :19:04. | :19:05. | |
And we're joined now by the Shadow City Minister Jonathan Reynolds, | :19:06. | :19:14. | |
who is also a member of Labour's Brexit team. | :19:15. | :19:24. | |
jobs for the price of one! Welcome to the programme. What is the | :19:25. | :19:32. | |
evidence that the Government wants to, quote, cut a deal for finance | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
and ignore small businesses and manufacturers? John is referring to | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
the story in the Financial Times last week about the possibility of a | :19:42. | :19:48. | |
specific deal for financial services cut before the rest of the deal is | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
ready. What John said today was that when we get this Brexit deal in | :19:53. | :19:55. | |
place, which only has to cover all of the economy, it can't be done | :19:56. | :20:02. | |
piece by piece. This was based on unsourced story in the Financial | :20:03. | :20:05. | |
Times, but as I can find no government minister on record saying | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
that that's what they want to do. John is putting a the league | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
position, which is that it must cover all of the economy. Given that | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
we can't find anybody saying that we need to cut a deal just for finance, | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
what is the evidence that the Government doesn't want to take into | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
account manufacturers, given the news from Nissan this morning? We | :20:29. | :20:31. | |
don't know what the Government wants to take into account because it | :20:32. | :20:34. | |
won't tell us, it won't tell us the negotiating strategy or bring that | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
to Parliament. In relation to Nissan, I grew up close to that | :20:39. | :20:41. | |
factory and it is fantastic news that those models will be made there | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
but you can't do a deal like this factory by factory, shop floor to | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
shop floor. It is not factory by factory, it is | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
with one of the biggest companies in the world. One of the other biggest | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
car companies is jaguar and Tata. Are you saying we couldn't do a deal | :20:58. | :21:05. | |
with them? Since the Shadow Chancellor said, the Government is | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
ignoring manufacturers, the evidence from Nissan today and other talks | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
would suggest there is no evidence for that. I'd say the evidence is | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
that what we have is chaos. We don't know the position from the | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
Government. You can't do it company by company. If there was chaos, why | :21:21. | :21:28. | |
would Nissan, which could go anywhere in the world, make this | :21:29. | :21:31. | |
massive investment in a chaotic country? It can make the investment | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
because it has had support and assurances. So that's not chaos. But | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
you can't do that company by company. You've said that. If there | :21:43. | :21:49. | |
was chaos in this country, Nissan wouldn't come near it. The | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
Government's approach is chaotic and I think it's been | :21:54. | :21:56. | |
counter-productive. They should be frank with the British people as to | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
our negotiating strategy. John McDonell said in July that he | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
wouldn't support any exit deal that didn't involve our sporting for the | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
financial sector, which allows them to operate throughout Europe. -- | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
past sporting. You wouldn't get that unless you offer some privileged | :22:14. | :22:16. | |
position for finance as well, so what is the difference? You need to | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
achieve some sort of agreement which has come parable access, something | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
that isn't a's at it as useful as. You would need to cut a deal for | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
finance. You are complaining that the Government is trying to cut a | :22:33. | :22:35. | |
deal for finance, which we have no evidence for. It can't just before | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
that one sector at that time. There is no evidence that the is doing | :22:40. | :22:46. | |
that. We don't have that evidence. So it is an aunt Sally. It is a very | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
clear problem. If the Government can tell Nissan its strategy, why can't | :22:52. | :22:54. | |
it tell the House of Commons? Why would you not want to cut a deal for | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
finance, given how important it is for the British economy? Because to | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
get the best deal, you need to get all the interests of the economy | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
lined up together. You've got to tie in German exporting goods to our | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
need to get access to financial services and that's how we'll get | :23:10. | :23:12. | |
the best deal. It is not just about which parts of our economy should | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
get favourable treatment. I come again to, what evidence do you have | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
but the government is not proceeding in that way, that its intention is | :23:23. | :23:25. | |
to do it that way, with manufacturing, small businesses and | :23:26. | :23:32. | |
finance? It won't tell us. Always had so far is, we want lists of | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
foreign workers, damaging our reputation abroad. They won't | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
confirm the status of EU nationals, what terms financial services will | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
have. We have Tory MPs attacking the Bank of England. At the Labour | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
conference, Mr Corbyn put your body on an election footing, where he | :23:51. | :23:53. | |
said he thought there would be a snap election early next year so it | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
is important we know what your party stands for, since we might be only a | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
couple of months from an election. Is it Labour policy to remain a | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
member of the single market? No, it is the policy to try to achieve the | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
fullest possible access to the single market. We recognise and | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
respect the vote and that has got to be on the basis which we proceed. | :24:16. | :24:18. | |
I'm grateful for that because that is a clear answer but it is not what | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
we've had from other Labour politicians, including your boss. | :24:22. | :24:24. | |
John McDonell said last month that single market membership would be | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
preferable, Emily Thornberry described it as very important and | :24:30. | :24:32. | |
your shadow chief secretary described it as a red line. So are | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
you this morning restating Labour policy more accurately and clearer, | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
that membership is not the policy? I'm confident that what I've just | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
told you is the view of the Shadow Cabinet. So it has changed from what | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
John McDonell, Emily Thornberry and but she secretary said recently? The | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
policy is to try to achieve the fullest possible access. Which is | :24:55. | :25:02. | |
the government policy, to, isn't it? Perhaps they will tell us. What is | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
your policy on immigration from Europe? There is no doubt that | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
immigration played a significant part in the referendum, as anyone | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
who was out canvassing will have experience. We are seeking the means | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
to address those concerns, in terms of mitigating the impact on public | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
services, addressing wages. We will prioritise the economy first. When | :25:25. | :25:30. | |
we leave the European Union, at the moment we know because of the free | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
movement that people can come here as they see fit and, of course, we | :25:35. | :25:40. | |
can go there as well. That is part of the whole free movement of | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
European Union. When we leave, though, we will need a policy to | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
determine who can come here and who won't. What will that policy be? It | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
will be about making sure our industries can still recruit skilled | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
labour, which is huge part of it. There will clearly be to be some | :25:58. | :26:00. | |
element of unskilled labour that still comes to this country but we | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
won't scapegoat migrants, as we've seen in some parts of the right in | :26:05. | :26:07. | |
this country. I wouldn't expect you to do that at all but will you put a | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
limit on numbers? At the moment, the net migration from the EU is about | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
180,000, I think, in the latest figures. Would you seek to reduce | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
that, keep at the same, increase it? In terms of a wide economic plans, | :26:24. | :26:26. | |
you would see a reduction of immigration just because of the | :26:27. | :26:29. | |
types of investment on priorities we want to make but we're not going to | :26:30. | :26:36. | |
put numbers on it. The numbers in terms of... One final question, | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
because you are speaking generalities, in what way would your | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
policy following our membership be different from now? In terms of | :26:46. | :26:54. | |
immigration? Yes. It would be, I think, something which is better | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
able to respond to the impact on public services and better able to | :26:58. | :27:03. | |
prevent wage rates declining. The British public are not so worried | :27:04. | :27:06. | |
about immigration in terms of what it means for the city, it is about | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
the impact on the labour market and public services. Do you accept that | :27:11. | :27:16. | |
given that it is the Government's position that we don't want to be | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
under the European court's jurisdiction, that we want some | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
control on movement, so not total free movement, and we want to be | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
able to make our own free trade deals, that you add these three | :27:29. | :27:31. | |
things together, we can still have access to the single market but we | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
can't be a member of the single market. Do you accept that? I don't | :27:35. | :27:40. | |
see the other 27 countries in Europe being happy about that. Why would | :27:41. | :27:46. | |
they agree that we should have terms which are, some would say, much more | :27:47. | :27:53. | |
favourable than the terms they have? Germany... If you look at not just | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
the movement of labour around Europe but the refugee problem etc, other | :27:58. | :28:07. | |
countries in Europe have taken far more people than us. Why would you, | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
if you were a leader, Angela Merkel, for example, or anybody in Germany, | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
say, OK, UK, you go over there and is in completely different and we're | :28:18. | :28:23. | |
still happy... The game is now full access, as much access as you can | :28:24. | :28:25. | |
get? Absolutely. Thank you. Now, while French officials say | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
that they have successfully cleared the Calais camp known as the Jungle, | :28:31. | :28:32. | |
charities claim that dozens of children spent | :28:33. | :28:34. | |
the night sleeping rough. More than 5,500 people have | :28:35. | :28:36. | |
been moved from the camp to reception centres across France | :28:37. | :28:39. | |
since Monday, when the This includes about 1500 | :28:40. | :28:53. | |
unaccompanied minors being housed in a temporary camp on-site. | :28:54. | :28:54. | |
We can talk now to BBC reporter Simon Jones, who's in Calais. | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
Bring us up-to-date with what's happening this morning. Well, | :28:59. | :29:05. | |
another day in Calais and another day of confusion. In the past few | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
moments, we've just seen some smoke coming from the camp, which may | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
suggest there could be more fires being started. Fire ripped through | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
the camp yesterday, causing so many problems. People had to leave the | :29:18. | :29:19. | |
camp and there were real concerns about some of the children involved | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
in this, because the charities have been telling us that last night, | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
towards the end of the evening, some 70 children had actually nowhere to | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
sleep so they had to step in, finding places for them at a nearby | :29:34. | :29:36. | |
hangar and also at a nearby school. The authorities here are saying, job | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
done, effectively. The migrants have been moved from the camp. But if we | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
walk over here, you can see, there are still a large number of people | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
here who haven't left Calais and are still on the outskirts of the camp. | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
The authorities have been telling us today that they believe some of | :29:54. | :29:56. | |
these people have actually come from other parts of France because they | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
had the operation was going so successfully, to try to get to | :30:01. | :30:03. | |
centres elsewhere in France. There was also an issue with the children. | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
We're told by the association is that the children have been asked to | :30:09. | :30:11. | |
come here around now, possibly to get a bus to centres in other parts | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
of France. But real concern particularly for the vulnerable | :30:17. | :30:19. | |
children who yesterday were inside the camp, and they saw a lot of the | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
place that they call their home going up in flames. We saw these | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
quite horrendous pictures on television and we see some of | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
clearly children behind you there as well. If you take into account the | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
people behind you, the unaccompanied minors, others who are still there, | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
how many people are still in the Jungle or the vicinity of it, and | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
what is the French authorities' plan to do with them? | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
There's probably a few hundred people still here in Calais, despite | :30:51. | :30:57. | |
the fact more than 5000 have been moved. When we spoke to the prefect, | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
one of the top officials in Calais earlier today, she told us that | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
effectively everyone in the Jungle had been dealt with. And people who | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
had come from other parts of France had to simply move somewhere else. | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
Whether that's going to happen remains to be seen. With some of the | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
children we are told they will be offered safety. It's a question of | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
trying to determine who the children are. Despite the fact there has been | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
chaos and confusion, I think politicians in France and the | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
president will be quite satisfied that after day four of this | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
operation, a large number of people have been moved elsewhere in France | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
and we haven't seen a great outbreak of violence or disorder. Thank you. | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
Simon reporting from the camp in Calais. His words and pictures | :31:47. | :31:54. | |
showing it is clearly a problem that hasn't yet been resolved. President | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
Hollande will regard it as a plus but he needs all the pluses he can | :31:58. | :32:05. | |
get. His approval rating is currently at 4%. And British | :32:06. | :32:06. | |
politicians think they're unpopular! The prominent Leave campaigner | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
and former Cabinet minister Michael Gove has been elected to sit | :32:11. | :32:12. | |
on a powerful new Brexit He will join a cross-party committee | :32:13. | :32:15. | |
of MPs which will scrutinise the Government as it negotiates | :32:16. | :32:23. | |
Britain's exit from The former Justice Secretary has | :32:24. | :32:25. | |
also joined forces with Lord Glasman to come up with a proposal | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
for a new immigration Welcome back. Lovely to see you, | :32:30. | :32:39. | |
Andrew. Good to see you're out of hiding! Back from holiday. I've been | :32:40. | :32:48. | |
in the Times. I see you are gainfully employed again! Mark the | :32:49. | :32:57. | |
government's Brexit performance to date. How is it doing? I think I'd | :32:58. | :33:06. | |
give it an capital a but not a capital a star. There's detail still | :33:07. | :33:09. | |
to be fleshed out but it's important to recognise the Prime Minister has | :33:10. | :33:16. | |
been clear about triggering Article 50. She has spelled-out we will take | :33:17. | :33:22. | |
all existing EU law, get it into the law and decide which bits we want to | :33:23. | :33:30. | |
keep, amend or ditch. I also think a great deal of work has gone on | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
behind the scenes in the new Department for exiting European | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
Union and the Department for International trade. One of the | :33:39. | :33:40. | |
things I'm looking forward to doing is probing a bit deeper. When you | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
launched the campaign to become Tory leader you said "I will end free | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
movement, introduce a points type system for immigration". The | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
government has ruled out a points-based system for EU migrants. | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
No, the Prime Minister has been very clear migration is going to come | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
down. The referendum vote was clearly a boat for controlling the | :34:07. | :34:09. | |
number to come here. The Australian points-based system is merely one | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
way of achieving it. You wouldn't go to the wall on that? Parliament | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
should decide. There's a principle that Maurice Glasman and I are | :34:20. | :34:22. | |
outlining today which is we think there should be a fair migration | :34:23. | :34:25. | |
system which doesn't discriminate between countries. At the moment if | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
you from Bulgaria you've got an advantage over someone who comes | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
from Bangladesh, even if you've got skills from Bangladesh and you're an | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
unskilled worker from Bulgaria. But if the government were to meet its | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
target on immigration in the tens of thousands, fewer people from all | :34:44. | :34:46. | |
over the world would have to come. Fewer people from outside the EU by | :34:47. | :34:52. | |
a huge number and fewer people from within the EU by a huge number. | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
There are two questions there. The first is the absolute level, the | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
numbers. I think the important thing is that whatever the figure, | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
Parliament should decide not an outside body. The second thing is | :35:05. | :35:07. | |
the basis on which we operate. I think the right thing to do is to | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
have a fair policy that doesn't discriminate. You also said the new | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
immigration policy should be based on "The brightest and. Most | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
countries would always want the brightest and the best. Do you | :35:21. | :35:28. | |
accept in a growing economy there is also a need for and skilled | :35:29. | :35:32. | |
migrants? At certain times there can be a requirement for unskilled | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
migrants. As a result of freedom of movement we had far too many people | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
coming here, dispersing the wages of working people. One thing Maurice | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
Glasman and I want to do is talk to working-class communities. There has | :35:48. | :35:49. | |
been a caricature of the view many people have an immigration. The | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
caricature is people want to pull up the drawbridge. They don't. They do | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
want to see the numbers of unskilled people coming here more firmly | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
controlled. But if you want the best and brightest and you still want an | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
element of unskilled migration, I don't understand how you're ever | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
going to hit net migration of 100,000 if that still your target. | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
It's the government 's target. One of the reasons for having this | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
commission, we can ask the public the question where did they think | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
that figure should be pitched. You fought to elections with that in | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
your manifesto. Absolutely. I didn't strongly disagree with it but I do | :36:31. | :36:33. | |
think there was a problem with it. The problem was we could not hit | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
that figure while we were in the European Union. Migration has to | :36:38. | :36:40. | |
come down from the current level it is that if people are going to have | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
confidence that in the future we are making the right decisions about who | :36:46. | :36:48. | |
we let in. But isn't it clear that even outside the EU, given that the | :36:49. | :36:56. | |
total net migration is about 330000 and its split almost even Stevens | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
between EU and non-EU, even outside the EU you're not going to hit | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
100,000. Does not undermine public confidence in our political elite | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
that you've outlined targets you know you're not going to meet, as | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
your government didn't meet for six years. Absolutely. I agree with | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
every word. So the government should not have reiterated 100,000 of the | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
target? No, you cannot meet it while we are in the European Union. You | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
could if we are out. The Prime Minister wants to try to hit that | :37:31. | :37:33. | |
target. I think bringing migration down is a good thing. I also think | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
it's important we listen to the public before arriving at what that | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
target should be. You're going to be on this committee chaired by Hilary | :37:43. | :37:49. | |
Benn, scrutinising the work of the government in the Brexit process. | :37:50. | :37:52. | |
Throughout the referendum campaign, you made it clear that to leave the | :37:53. | :38:01. | |
European Union was also a vote to leave the single market in terms of | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
membership. Not that you wouldn't have access but to leave in terms of | :38:05. | :38:10. | |
being a member. That seems clear to me in everything the government has | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
said. Why won't the government admitted? Why doesn't the government | :38:15. | :38:17. | |
admit we won't be a member of the single market? I made it clear, the | :38:18. | :38:23. | |
remain camp made it clear, everybody made it clear that leaving the EU | :38:24. | :38:26. | |
meant leaving the single market. One of the things about the government's | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
negotiating position is I'm not part of that team, I'm going to be asking | :38:32. | :38:34. | |
those questions and that's one question be putting to David Davis. | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
I've asked them again and again and I can't get an answer. Once Chris | :38:40. | :38:45. | |
Grayling denied to me on the Sunday politics that there was such a thing | :38:46. | :38:48. | |
as membership of the single market. I can't imagine I'll be as good an | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
interrogator as you but I'll try to get to the bottom of it! If you talk | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
about leaving the single market as though it's a punishment, actually | :38:58. | :39:00. | |
it's a liberation. Even in the knowledge that we are almost | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
inevitably going to be leaving the single market, we've had the best | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
news that Sunderland have had since Paolo Di Canio was sacked... Who is | :39:08. | :39:14. | |
he? He was Sunderland's football manager. Sunderland has a football | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
team?! It has a great football team! One other thing about that fate of | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
confidence in Sunderland is that it's taken in the full knowledge | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
will be outside the single market. Given the government's emphasis on | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
having an ability to do our own free trade deals, does not follow | :39:35. | :39:40. | |
automatically that we cannot remain inside the European Customs Union? I | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
think that is, I don't have the same degree of certainty, I think it's | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
pretty clear we should be outside the Customs Union as well, yes. Why | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
doesn't the government guarantee the status of EU citizens already here | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
and their families? Of people from the EU who have come here to work, | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
they brought their families. They could be in the NHS, some of them | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
could be in the Nissan car plant in Sunderland. They are in our fields, | :40:10. | :40:15. | |
factories, helping provide our public services. Instead of making | :40:16. | :40:18. | |
them a bargaining card, why doesn't the government say if you're here, | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
you within the law, you and your family are welcome to stay here for | :40:23. | :40:25. | |
as long as you want. Why doesn't the government do that? I agree with | :40:26. | :40:32. | |
you. That was a question. I'm just making it clear I'm not challenging | :40:33. | :40:38. | |
the proposition or disagreeing. I made that case during my brief | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
ill-fated leadership bid. Why isn't the government saying that? I think | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
the government wants to keep its cards close to its chest. One of the | :40:47. | :40:52. | |
things that I can do as a backbencher is outlined my own | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
views, but I wouldn't want to second-guess every decision the | :40:57. | :40:58. | |
government is going to have to take during the course of these | :40:59. | :41:04. | |
negotiations. It's all very well to save keep the cards close to the | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
chest, People's lives are hanging on this and it's shameful. It really | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
is. They have uncertainty. They don't know what they are doing. They | :41:13. | :41:18. | |
are settled and married. It is just shameful, Michael. I take your | :41:19. | :41:25. | |
point. Do you agree with that? I think it's important to dial down | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
the rhetoric but I agree... The rhetoric gets dialled up because | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
they really frightened. Fed. Angry. I entirely accept there is a range | :41:36. | :41:41. | |
of feelings on this issue. I want to say to the government, when | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
ministers appear in front of the committee, I will ask those | :41:48. | :41:50. | |
questions as well. But my view is similar to yours. I haven't | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
expressed a view, I've asked a question. My view is similar to the | :41:55. | :42:00. | |
one you articulated in the body of the question. Implicit in the | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
question. Finally on this point, isn't it just wrong, not just from a | :42:06. | :42:14. | |
practical point of view but the implication in Margaret's question, | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
from a moral position. It's wrong to make these people who are our | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
friends and neighbours and allies in this country, to make them a | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
bargaining card. Why don't we just do it? Whatever the Europeans do to | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
our expats we can deal with it. Why have these decent hard-working | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
people been made a bargaining card? I can only say that I am in | :42:36. | :42:41. | |
agreement with you on this issue, and indeed have said so. But the | :42:42. | :42:48. | |
government has taken a slightly different position and will have a | :42:49. | :42:51. | |
chance to cross examine them in due course. When you're on this Brexit | :42:52. | :42:55. | |
committee, one of the ministers who will come before it to be | :42:56. | :42:59. | |
interrogated is Boris Johnson, are you looking forward to interviewing | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
him? I always look forward to any encounter with Boris. So that's a | :43:04. | :43:16. | |
yes? It's a yes. I know you've given other interviews on the events of | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
the summer. But as you look back, you must have huge regrets do you | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
not about the course of action you took. I made mistakes. I hope I've | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
been open in acknowledging I've made mistakes. I can look back at each of | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
the individual decisions I made and it seems to me they were right at | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
the time. These mistakes I can learn from. Ultimately, Theresa May is | :43:41. | :43:43. | |
Prime Minister, I think the Conservative Party made the right | :43:44. | :43:46. | |
choice. Boris Johnson is a senior Cabinet minister and I his ability | :43:47. | :43:53. | |
easily entitle him to that job. And I have a job to think, write and | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
operate from the backbenches and I'm enjoying that at the moment. Do you | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
regard joining the Brexit committee, working with Maurice Glasman the | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
Labour peer, being on programmes like this, is this a long march back | :44:08. | :44:18. | |
to re-establishment? No, it's standing up for the things I believe | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
in. In particular, I played a part in the Leave Campaign. I think | :44:24. | :44:26. | |
there's a responsibility on those of who played a big part in that | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
campaign to see it through. I'm not running away from that. I celebrate | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
that decision and I want to make sure it is implemented properly. I'm | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
not in government, that gives me the freedom to make arguments to the | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
government and to the country about how it should be done. I shall watch | :44:44. | :44:49. | |
with interest how you and Maurice go along together. I can't for the life | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
of me see a more odd couple. It strikes me as really strange. The | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
odd couple was a very successful TV show! We make it back to front line | :44:59. | :45:08. | |
politics again? -- will you make it back to front line politics again? I | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
don't know. If Theresa May remains as Prime Minister, I think probably | :45:13. | :45:18. | |
not. All I want to say is it's a privilege to work with Maurice. He | :45:19. | :45:24. | |
is one of the smartest, nicest people in politics. He's one of the | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
few Labour politicians who argued we should leave, and he did so great | :45:29. | :45:39. | |
clarity. I think of it as salt and vinegar, we go well together. Not | :45:40. | :45:47. | |
Marmite and Bovril! Michael, thank you for coming, I hope we'll see you | :45:48. | :45:49. | |
again. It was announced this morning | :45:50. | :45:52. | |
that the by-election in Richmond That means aid this week by election | :45:53. | :46:03. | |
special through the night! Get the coffee on already! | :46:04. | :46:07. | |
It was triggered when Zac Goldsmith quit the Tories to stand | :46:08. | :46:10. | |
as an independent in protest over Heathrow expansion. | :46:11. | :46:12. | |
It looks like it will be a straight fight between Mr Goldsmith | :46:13. | :46:15. | |
and the Lib Dems, as the Tories aren't fielding | :46:16. | :46:17. | |
But it's not just Heathrow that's important in Richmond, | :46:18. | :46:20. | |
nearly 70% of voters in the area voted to stay in the EU. | :46:21. | :46:23. | |
Unlike Zac Goldsmith who voted to leave. | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
So what will the good people of Richmond be voting on - | :46:29. | :46:31. | |
Zac Goldsmith has quit as a Conservative MP | :46:32. | :46:42. | |
here in Richmond to run as an independent MP, | :46:43. | :46:45. | |
furious at the Government's plans to expand Heathrow Airport. | :46:46. | :46:47. | |
He wants the by-election here to be a referendum on that issue, | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
but the Liberal Democrats, who also oppose Heathrow expansion, | :46:52. | :46:54. | |
want the by-election to be about sending a powerful message | :46:55. | :46:57. | |
Don't forget, Zac campaigned to leave the EU. | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
What matters more to you - Heathrow or Brexit - | :47:03. | :47:19. | |
when you come to decide who you're going to vote for? | :47:20. | :47:22. | |
Right now, I would say Brexit. | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
Can you put a ball in my box, please? | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
Otherwise, I'll get a parking ticket. | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
I voted out on Brexit anyway, so it'd be Heathrow. | :47:36. | :47:38. | |
I can't vote but if I could, I certainly would vote for no | :47:39. | :47:41. | |
Breaking news - it's Trevor McDonald. | :47:42. | :47:58. | |
Well, we're not the favourites at the moment but we've only had | :47:59. | :48:05. | |
the by-election announced for less than, or fewer, rather, | :48:06. | :48:07. | |
than 24 hours, so there's still plenty of time. | :48:08. | :48:09. | |
Do you think it's a good time for another election? | :48:10. | :48:12. | |
The reason I chose Brexit is, it's going to have an immediate effect | :48:13. | :48:16. | |
on me, whereas Heathrow I don't think will ever happen. | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
Well, cos I live here and the planes drive me | :48:22. | :48:27. | |
Right now, it seems like Brexit is creeping ahead. | :48:28. | :48:37. | |
Everyone said it's difficult. | :48:38. | :48:40. | |
What was the question - what do I think's more | :48:41. | :48:46. | |
As an individual, yeah, Brexit, definitely. | :48:47. | :49:01. | |
And after a lot of chin scratching here on the streets of Richmond, | :49:02. | :49:07. | |
concern about Heathrow expansion is outweighed | :49:08. | :49:09. | |
And we're joined now by the Conservative peer | :49:10. | :49:19. | |
Nicholas True, who is also the Leader of Richmond Council. | :49:20. | :49:25. | |
Welcome to the programme. Zac Goldsmith says he wants this | :49:26. | :49:31. | |
by-election to be a referendum on Heathrow expansion. Buttoned his | :49:32. | :49:34. | |
main opponent is also going to be against Heathrow expansion, how can | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
it be a referendum? Well, it's a referendum on whether we want to | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
keep our word and the fundamental point is, Zac Goldsmith gave a | :49:44. | :49:46. | |
commitment, a rare thing in a politician, that he would do what | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
he's done, he's kept his promise and we wish to keep him as our MP. But | :49:51. | :49:56. | |
if you have a referendum, as we had on June 23, or in Scotland in | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
September 2014, you get a choice of who you are going to vote for. The | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
two front runners, if they are both in favour of no Heathrow expansion, | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
and you are in favour of it, who do you vote for? You vote for the far | :50:09. | :50:14. | |
more effective, competent unproven spokesman against Heathrow, Zac | :50:15. | :50:18. | |
Goldsmith. But if you are also, as a 70 descent of those in Richmond are, | :50:19. | :50:24. | |
against Brexit, why would you vote for a notorious Euro-sceptic? Zac | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
Goldsmith has been MP since 2010. The question was asked was, what is | :50:29. | :50:33. | |
more important the country? I personally think Brexit is hugely | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
important the country, rather than a mistaken airport decision. The fact | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
is, everybody in Richmond knows and has known for a long time where | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
Goldsmith stands. He's been returned repeatedly. He has a very strong | :50:47. | :50:49. | |
majority, even though it is well known that he's been against the EU. | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
But the issue has become germane now because we voted to leave but your | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
area did not vote to leave, so if you've got two front runners, both | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
of them against Heathrow, which is the mood of the constituency, but | :51:04. | :51:09. | |
one against how we voted on June the 23rd, which is the Lib Dems, which | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
is the mood of your constituency, we've seen from the report, isn't | :51:15. | :51:19. | |
there a danger that he loses? I don't think so. Obviously, he is | :51:20. | :51:24. | |
taking risks. He doesn't need to do this. He's doing this because he | :51:25. | :51:28. | |
thinks he has to a promise. But the real point here is whether this is | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
an election for an MP to go to Westminster. Do you return a proven, | :51:34. | :51:38. | |
well liked, successful MP or send an unknown quantity? We've actually | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
just have a referendum in this country, as you pointed out earlier. | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
35 million people voted and whether it is an unelected peers sitting in | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
this chair or whether it is the leader of the Liberal Democrats | :51:53. | :51:55. | |
saying we could rerun this, the fact is that this by-election would not | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
have any effect on the policy of the country. What is the point of the | :52:00. | :52:05. | |
by-election? Mr Goldsmith was elected twice. He was first elected | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
in 2010, then re-elected in 2015. On both occasions, he made clear his | :52:11. | :52:16. | |
opposition to Heathrow expansion. There was no doubt about that and | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
last time I looked, he is still opposed to it. So what is the | :52:21. | :52:25. | |
point... You've already been elected twice on opposing it, so what's the | :52:26. | :52:30. | |
point of being elected a third time on opposing it? The point is, I'm | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
sure he regrets having made the commitment, part of him, deep down, | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
but he said when he was first adopted as an MP, when he was first | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
elected, the second time he was elected, that if any government took | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
the decision to expand Heathrow, he would force a by-election to enable | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
local people to express their view. It may seem odd and old-fashioned | :52:52. | :52:54. | |
but here is a politician who is keeping a promise he made to his | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
electors and instead of falling down on his head and saying, isn't it | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
ridiculous, for once a politician keeps his promise and one might | :53:05. | :53:07. | |
actually praise that. You seem to imply it is maybe a promise he | :53:08. | :53:10. | |
shouldn't have made since it is clear where he stands and he's been | :53:11. | :53:14. | |
elected twice on it. Do you think he regrets it? I'm sure part of him | :53:15. | :53:19. | |
dusted up who likes fighting an election? Here is a man with a safe | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
seat in Westminster until 2020 but he made a promise and feels he has | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
to do this and I think he should be respected for that. Are the local | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
Tory activist in Richmond happy that there won't be a Tory candidate? | :53:32. | :53:37. | |
Yes. I went to the Executive association yesterday and it was a | :53:38. | :53:43. | |
very clear feeling that we have been delighted with Zac Goldsmith is our | :53:44. | :53:48. | |
MP... So the constituency will be behind Mr Goldsmith? Unquestionably, | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
there will be many Conservatives working for Zac Goldsmith and, I | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
hope, people of other parties. I think it is regrettable that the Lib | :53:58. | :54:00. | |
Dems are dividing the community which needs to be united against | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
immensely powerful interests behind Heathrow. They were hardly going to | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
give you a free one, where they? They used to have that seat and the | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
one next to it so they weren't going to give you a free run. Principle is | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
not the strongest point, I'll give you that. I'm sure in their | :54:17. | :54:19. | |
situation, you would do exactly the same. Lets see what happens on | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
December the 1st. It certainly means a late night for us. Thank you very | :54:24. | :54:25. | |
much. Theresa May's arrival at Number 10 | :54:26. | :54:27. | |
was heralded as an end to spin and a return | :54:28. | :54:29. | |
to old-fashioned plain-speaking. But efforts to find out what that | :54:30. | :54:31. | |
means in practice have floundered with the Prime Minister | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
demonstrating a flair for not But she's certainly not the first | :54:36. | :54:37. | |
and surely not the last leader to give evasive responses | :54:38. | :54:48. | |
to specific questions. I was entitled to express my views, | :54:49. | :55:00. | |
I was entitled to be consulted. Did you threaten to overrule him? I did | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
not instruct. Did you believe in old Labour? I believed in the values of | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
the Labour Party. Did you believe in what they stood for? CND, union | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
power not being curtailed? Nationalisation, no privatisation? | :55:16. | :55:21. | |
Did you threaten to overrule him? I did not overrule him. Did you | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
threaten to overrule him? I took advice on what I should do and I | :55:27. | :55:29. | |
acted scrupulously in accordance with bad advice. I want to make sure | :55:30. | :55:34. | |
children have those opportunities, that all schools offer a good | :55:35. | :55:37. | |
education for children. But is not quite an answer about my question on | :55:38. | :55:40. | |
grammar schools. You are not answering the question. | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
Probably important aspect on this, which it is important to bear in | :55:46. | :55:49. | |
mind... I'm going to seem rude, I'm sorry... There is no point in | :55:50. | :55:56. | |
looking at different words. We're not going to give a running | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
commentary. I'm not asking for a running commentary, I'm asking you a | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
rather simple and basic question. That is not a web of an answer to | :56:05. | :56:09. | |
the question of whether you threaten to overrule him. | :56:10. | :56:12. | |
And I'm joined now by Dr Peter Bull from the University of York, who has | :56:13. | :56:15. | |
dug into the science of Theresa May and other leading politicians | :56:16. | :56:18. | |
Welcome to the programme. I understand you've come up with the | :56:19. | :56:22. | |
fact that there are 35 different techniques politicians use to avoid | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
answering the questions. Is that right. Can you give some examples? | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
Yes, I have identified at least 35 different ways of not replying to | :56:31. | :56:34. | |
the question. Common forms include attacking the question, there are | :56:35. | :56:40. | |
lots of ways to do that. It is based on a British you've taken out of | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
context, the quotation is mistaken, it is based on a false | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
presupposition, it is a hypothetical question. I've had all of those, | :56:49. | :56:52. | |
particularly the hypothetical one, because the key question people like | :56:53. | :56:56. | |
me ask is hypothetical - if you do this, what will this follow? But I | :56:57. | :57:03. | |
understand Theresa May has a whole new category of nonspecific | :57:04. | :57:06. | |
responses to specific questions. I think we saw some of that that PMQs | :57:07. | :57:12. | |
yesterday. We certainly did. Most of her none replies to the two | :57:13. | :57:18. | |
interviews with Andrew Marr include this nonspecific response to a | :57:19. | :57:21. | |
specific question. The question, for example, about, would she stop the | :57:22. | :57:28. | |
Scots having a second referendum? When asked that, she actually says, | :57:29. | :57:33. | |
"Well, it's not a question of whether they should have another | :57:34. | :57:39. | |
referendum, but there should be another referendum," which is an | :57:40. | :57:45. | |
interesting technique in that it doesn't answer the question but | :57:46. | :57:48. | |
rephrase the question in a way in which she wants to answer it. | :57:49. | :57:51. | |
Liebrich, I know what you are talking about and live with it on a | :57:52. | :57:56. | |
daily basis. Do you have any advice to help me? One of the interesting | :57:57. | :57:59. | |
things to the interviewers is the way they follow evasion and in your | :58:00. | :58:07. | |
opening sequence, you quoted the celebrated sequence where Jeremy | :58:08. | :58:13. | |
Paxman poses the question 16 times but the extent to which you can | :58:14. | :58:16. | |
follow up, draw attention to the evasion and keep following it up, | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
how many times do you follow it up and not get a reply? | :58:21. | :58:23. | |
Thank you for joining us. Fascinating stuff. Good to talk to | :58:24. | :58:25. | |
you. There's just time before we go | :58:26. | :58:28. | |
to find out the answer to our quiz. Who did the Queen mistake | :58:29. | :58:31. | |
Vladimir Putin for during I hope it wasn't Prince Andrew, her | :58:32. | :58:42. | |
son! Hopefully she would recognise her son! She doesn't see him a lot! | :58:43. | :58:46. | |
It wasn't Prince Andrew. I'm going to hazard a guess at your good self. | :58:47. | :58:48. | |
Andrew Marr! That it is. The one o'clock news is starting | :58:49. | :58:54. | |
over on BBC One now. I will be joined by Michael | :58:55. | :58:57. | |
Portillo, Alan Johnson, Digby Jones, Helen Lewis | :58:58. | :58:59. | |
an the Rev Richard Coles | :59:00. | :59:02. |