01/11/2016 Daily Politics

brighter on Thursday. Have a good day.

We look at a new app designed to shine a light

All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole programme

otherwise known as the Money Saving Expert.

First today, the Chancellor Philip Hammond,

says the UK will "strike back"

if it comes under cyber attack, as he details

the Government's new cyber-defence strategy.

The plan, which is underpinned by nearly ?2 billion of funding,

is aimed at bolstering existing defences,

but also involves significant investment

in "taking the fight to those who threaten Britain".

It comes as the head of MI5, Andrew Parker, tells the Guardian

newspaper of the growing threat posed by Russia

Should we be treating this as seriously as terrace, cyber attacks?

Well, not because of the loss of life, but terrorism is often about

making people panic and causing things to shut down and economic

attack. And cyber terror is and does exactly that and can be incredibly

damaging. ?2 billion is relatively small potatoes on the potential

impact. A decade ago, I had our first simulation on the website and

we were shut down for three days. We were waiting for a ransom, because

this is common. When people get a virus on their computer, that virus

may not be looking to damage you, it may be used so that it can then

freeze a website or country. So be prepared for this is important. And

there is more going on than people expect. When you suffer a big attack

my run a top 100 UK website and when you suffer an attack, you have a

decision to make. Do you tell users, which is good for transparency? That

is the way I operate. But you are admitting there was a hole in your

differences and people are coming in to try and suck the dater or leak

out your payment details, which we don't have, but if you had them,

trying to keep it quiet can be damage prevention. So a lot of these

things go on in the background that people never hear about. So you

think it is more widespread? The head of TalkTalk admitted that it

happened to her, which was welcomed. But she did that quite late and I

think she got caught between a rock and a hard place. She was not early

enough to appease the public, and she was a bit too late. This is

really big, and it is going to continue. It is not just about

terrorism. There are teenagers thinking this is interesting. Isn't

that the point? The head of MI5 and Philip Hammond are implying that the

threat is Russia and that that is where the big threat to our cyber

security comes from but actually, a lot of cyber attacks are done by

individuals in their bedrooms. Individuals or organised crimes. The

first time we were attacked, this was early days. Nobody can access

your website. You end up paying large amounts of money. Thankfully,

we have better defences these days. Don't attack is, we are a consumer

service website. But there is not much you can do unless your national

infrastructure works, so to protect our economy and to protect the big

in situations of state and to protect our military, you need

people who are good at this. When it happens to you, as it happened to

me, the institutions and the police were useless. They didn't have the

resources in place, so it needs to be looked at. ?1.9 billion is being

dedicated to it. We will see if it is enough.

playwright Alistair Beaton has teamed up

with Yes Minister creator Jonathan Lynn to write a new play.

But which political relationship does it explore?

Was it a) Nigel Farage and Douglas Carswell

b) The Three Brexiteers - Liam Fox, David Davies

c) Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott

or d) Larry and Palmerston the cat.

Martin Lewis will give us the correct answer.

Now, if you'd taken a pound out of your pocket

on the eve of the EU referendum, it would have bought you

But almost as soon as the first results were in,

the value of sterling plunged -

and it has continued declining since.

It's now down by roughly 17% since 23rd June.

But who are the winners and losers from a cheaper pound?

of all 150 currencies tracked by Bloomberg in October.

At 10am this morning, the pound was 1.22 against the dollar

The falling pound has been a boost in the short term for UK firms

The FTSE 100 reached a record high in October,

as the profits of many international companies

are worth more when converted into sterling.

A cheaper pound has also made UK goods more competitive -

export volumes grew at their fastest pace for two and a half years

It also makes it more expensive, however, for British consumers

buying imported goods, which could push up prices.

Inflation is rising at its highest rate for two years,

The Office of National Statistics, however, cautioned against

linking this too explicitly with the fall in sterling.

The supermarket Morrisons has already increased the cost of a jar

while the chief executive of Typhoo Tea suggested last week

that the price of a cuppa could also go up.

And what are the prospects for tourism?

a more attractive holiday destination for visitors

from overseas, but British tourists will find breaks to Europe and

Here with me to discuss this further with Martin Lewis

are the Labour MP Stephen Kinnock and Gerard Lyons,

chief economic advisor at the Policy Exchange think tank.

Gerard Lyons, a good thing or a bad thing, the fall in sterling? It is a

good thing, but there are winners and losers. It should be stressed

that at some stage, the pound was going to fall whatever the outcome

of the referendum. The UK has a large current account deficit. We

also need to remember that this is not the first time the pound has

fallen. After the financial crisis, the pound fell by almost a quarter.

So we have seen it before, and it is good in the sense that it is a

competitive boost to the economy. The downside is that it will feed a

pick-up in inflation which is likely to be temporary over the next year.

But is there an issue about the speed at which the pound has fallen?

I take your point that it can be a good thing and that it was

overvalued, but the speed of that decline, is that something to be

worried about? Last month, it fell by 6% overnight to a 31 year low.

Doesn't that suggest a lack of faith in the British economy? It could

suggest that, but it is more likely to reflect the fact that the pound

was overvalued for some time. Even the International Monetary Fund,

often cited as an independent group even though they were too

pessimistic, they have said that the pound is overvalued by ten to 20%.

The thing about the pace of the decline, in the past when

governments have intervened to stop a falling currency, that has created

problems. This time, it has been sensible for the authorities to

stand back and let the currency fund its true level. At some stage, this

will help the rebalancing of the economy in terms of interest rates

eventually going higher even though for the moment, given where the

economy is, interest rates need to stay low. Do you agree that the

pound was overvalued and that the result of the referendum may have

played a part but it was not the whole story? What is worrying is

where the pound has fallen off the edge of a cliff. If you look at

Black Wednesday in 1992, the pound only devalued 4%. Since the 23rd of

June, the pound has devalued 15%. But was that because it was

overvalued? We need to ensure we have the pound valued at one level,

in a managed sense. I am also concerned about inflation hitting

the poorest in our society hardest. They are the people spending on

goods that are most affected by inflation. This will contribute even

more to the deeply unfair nature of the British economy. But do you

think the fall in the pound has been the trigger to higher inflation?

There is no doubt that there is a connection between the fall in the

pound and high inflation, because British companies are having to pay

more to bring goods in. That is particularly the case with the

Marmite. Do you agree that there is a link between the two? The pick-up

with inflation recently is because of events before the pound fell, but

the weaker pound will lead to higher inflation in the next six to 12

months. But we have seen this before. In 2008, the pound fell

sharply and inflation picked up and profit margins were squeezed. Some

of that hit people across society, and then we saw inflation subdued

again. We need to put this in perspective. It is not a permanent

pick-up in inflation. But because we have had this before, that does not

mean it is a good thing. It means prices will rise, particularly the

prices of basic goods, which will hit those who are less well off. We

do live in a world economy. Food and energy prices have been relatively

low. Even without the pound falling, we would have seen a pick-up in

energy prices because of higher oil prices. We need to put into context

that mark Carney, the Governor of the Bank of England, has accepted

that this will be a one-off increase in inflation. In 18 months, one

might expect inflation to be low again. We need to not panic too

much. The economy has still done quite well in terms of economic

growth. What has been the response to people who sign up to your

website in terms of prices going up? This is about future prices, as

opposed to now. We have not seen it coming that heavily, and it worked.

We overcomplicate this. If the pound drops, when we buy stuff from

abroad, that gets more expensive and that feed through into inflation. No

one would deny that. The euro rate is about the same as it was three

summers ago. It is against the dollar that there has been a real

hit. This is of course Brexit. The markets don't like it. So the euro

and the pound had gone down and the dollar hasn't to the same extent. In

terms of factoring through to prices, there is a big political

issue coming. I strongly suspect that this winter, for the first time

since 2013, we will see the big six energy price rises, both because of

wholesale prices, and because of the pound's weakness. I guess we will

have announcements by the end of January 5% or more rises on energy.

That is a big political issue because it focuses the debate

heavily on this. It is a solid bill going up in peoples homes, and

nobody will like it. That is a big hit. But there are positives from a

weaker pound. The UK is incredibly competitive. We are interesting for

people looking to put inward investment here like the Chinese.

But what about Martin's point about energy prices? When you are talking

about the positives, that benefits a certain group. But energy costs

rising will hit most people. The issue is, one is a direct hit, and

telling people the economy may be indirectly boosted does not help

people on the ground. Profit margins in the economy are very high. Profit

margins before the pound fell five years ago were very high. It depends

on the competitive element in those sectors and whether they take

advantage of the opportunity to pass on higher prices. There is no doubt

that a weaker pound does feeding to higher inflation, but you should not

attribute the temporary pick-up in inflation only to the weaker pound.

I think we are seeing the tremors. Remember, we haven't even triggered

article 50 yet. This is deeply political not just in the UK, but

also in the EU. Donald Tusk has said there will be no soft Brexit, there

is either a hard Brexit or no Brexit. And that spooks the markets,

from the pound to the export markets to our financial services industry,

which is already talking about moving thousands of jobs overseas.

They have talked about it, and Nissan has just announced that it is

actually going to stay. Who knows what the basis of the deal was. The

devil is in the detail. But when you talk to people in the financial

markets, they have been reassured by the relative political stability we

have in the UK. We now need to put those policies into effect, both

domestically and terms of the domestic reach and our industrial

policy, but also in terms of article 50. Being outside the single market

is pretty good for big chunks of this economy.

Chevening We delivered a political earthquake on 23rd June. So there is

no relative... Let's look at the political stability. You said it is

good, Gerard Lyons that there hasn't been Government interference in

terms of the value of the pound but you could argue that Theresa May's

speech at the Conservative Party conference, that Britain was heading

Forestieri a so-called are hard Greggs it, no longer being under the

court of justice s that would have... Talking about international

investors, the thing that has worried them more than anything else

is the comments by the Home Secretary about migration. Even

though though whoa need migration, international investments want

migration. It is not politic #k8 stability. That issue needs to be

clarified. In terms of other things. Because you don't want to see limits

on immigration. Looking back to June, the worry was, if we voted to

leave we would have three or four months of political inable state. We

now have relative political stability, we now have the

Chancellor, set in late November to provide an Autumn Statement, to give

a boost to the economy. We need to look at the whole context here.

There is clearly, as has been mentioned a big change post June

23rd, you are trying to imply lots is negative, there are lots of

positives. You are putting those positives. But the difference here

is who is being affected by what? The broader economy, as Martin Lewis

said is not the same as the direct economy to people in their pockets.

And people will take a view. Let's look at the City of London, you

raise the City of London, saying they are fairly sanguine about what

is going on s that your experience? The Chief Executive of the British

Bankers' Association, I'm sure who knows what he is talking about, said

the finger issing quivering over the relocate button. UBS said they are

going to relocate thousands of jobs. This is not just about big bankers

in the City of London, there are 1.1 million people employed in the

financial services industry, from Edinburgh to Glasgow, to Cardiff, to

Leeds. This has systemic impact on the British economy. And you've got

Paris and Frankfurt waiting in the wings. We've got to find a deal

which gives an equivalence on passporting, if we don't I fear an

exodus. I support equivalence on passporting. I think it is

important. What the BBA says, I wouldn't hold much weight in that,

they tend to talk nonsense in my experience most of the time. We've

had enough of experts. They are not experts. They are a trade

organisation that tries to talk to all their members... And they are

lobbying We can argue that. I think the financial services is a big

sweep, investment bank something a small sweep and is a small number of

people. They are a big threat to investment banking in the UK but it

is not going to go to Europe, it is going to go to New York and that is

the real competition out there. But we need to try to protect that

industry that's what brings in big tax money. The one thing we have at

the moment, I will come to you. We now have the certainty of

uncertainty. That's the troou. Nothing has happened. We have had a

vote. Sentiment has changed that's T But uncertainty will lead to aing

have couple being created, as people will say Inevitably. We know there

is going to be change which gives you something you can work on but we

don't know what it is. Let's look at the City of London and financial

services, would you be prepared to negotiate, you know, access in way

to the single market, tariff-free access, a very good deal for certain

sectors like the City of London, if it means that those rights are going

to be secured? I think, look, how we view the City needs to be seen in

context of the whole UK economy, as well as also the fact of the wider

European economy. I was at dinner last night with the British bhankers

association UPS and others were there. They have been out Chatham

House rules, but the gist was a far more positive discussion to the

outlook to the sti. One size does not fit all in the City. Are they

threatening to pull out, and relocate it Paris, Frankfurt and New

York? Financial is glevenlt the competition is London is New York

aSingapore. You have not answered my question, would you be prepared for

a special deal, would you be prepared for a special deal in erms

to have the single market and retaining the sort of access we have

now for certain industries? The UK needs to have a clean bricts in

terms of sovereignty and migration. So, no And on top, as has been

articulated, bespoke deal that suits the EU and UK and out of that, there

is no doubt in my mind that London will remain the financial centre.

Why are you not more confident about it? I have spent 20 years working in

and around the European Union. I'm also looking closely at things like

Donald tusk says when he says there'll only be a hard wrecks it.

It is not - Brexit. It is not because countries want to punish the

UK it is because they have their own realities. We have not to have a

gung-ho hubrus and casual approach which seems it fail zwropd stand how

the rest of the EU is having to deal with this very complex issue, so the

fact of the matter is - you cannot have your cake and eat T we have to

find a bespoke deal, yes, but it is not going to be a full continuation

of the passporting rights that we currently have which also gives you

a seat at the table to shape future regulations. That's the reality. And

the banking and financial services industry, 1.1 million jobs across

the entire country will take decisions based on strategic

importance. To come back to the original question, will the value of

the pound fall further? I think eventually the pound will be much

stronger. Is it going to fall further now? It depends what happens

in the US next week. But the found is firmly valued on many measures.

We shouldn't speculate, should we? The pound will either go down, go up

or stay the same. All right, we can put a bet on that. Thank you very

much. Failing to keep your garden tidy

or having a dog who barks excessively could land

you with a criminal record under powers introduced by Theresa May

when she was Home Secretary. Thousands of so-called

Community Protection Notices have been issued by local authorities

since they were introduced in 2014. But the campaign group,

The Manifesto Club, claims the powers are being abused in some

instances and amount We'll speak to them in a moment but,

first, here's Theresa May explaining the thinking behind the law

change back in 2012. Earlier today I launched our white

paper on anti-social behaviour. This new approach he empowers local

communities and puts victims' needs at its heart and puts more trust in

professionals than ever before. It perfectly compliments our approach

to wider, local policing. A lot of what is called anti-social

behaviour, of course is actually crime and it should be taken

seriously and it should be dealt with. Yet, more than 3 million

incidents of anti-social behaviour are still being reported to the

police each and every year with many more, doubtless, going unreported.

It's clear that the old topdown approach to the problem hasn't

worked. It was too bureaucratic, too complex and too time consuming. So

we will make powers simpler, I can question, easier to enforce, more

flexible and more effective. That was Theresa May as Home Secretary.

I'm joined now by Josephine Appleton from the Manifesto Club,

and by the Conservative MP Royston Smith, who used to be leader

Welcome to both of you. Josephine, first of all, a lot of people would

say anti-social behave area blights their lives and councils need more

powers to tackle them. Whats' wrong with that? I think it depends what

you define as anti-social behaviour. The test for introducing one of

these CPNs is incredibly low. It only requires a council official to

judge your activity has a detrimental effect on the quality of

life in your area and they can write you out a document telling you you

must or must not do something, if you break it, it is a criminal

offence. It takes the criminal law into unpress departmented areas and

really makes the question of what is a crime and what is not a crime

extremely subjective. Right. Can you actually paint a picture for us. How

many of these community protection notices are being issued and how

many are inappropriate, in your view? I mean, the first research we

have done is within the first year, there were 4,000 notices issued. And

bus the Home Office doesn't actually cope stats on it, it is difficult to

work out what they are. But - keep stwats.

But the majority seems to be more messy gardens and we received the

text of some of the notices and included things dr you must not

sleep in bin stores. You must not bus income this town centre. They

are really quite broad ranging. Within the home, you must not shout

or argue or put your he there vision on, such that can be overheard. I

think that the problem is not necessarily councils, but really,

the existence of these extremely broad powers in the first place. And

where anything is actually serious, there are existing powers that can

deal with it. Let me put that to Royston Smith. Those examples,

having a messy guard yes, shouting or arguing in your own home, surely

they can't come under community protection notice that is should be

regarded as a crime. I think she should. Why? When constituents come

to see me it is not because someone is hafg a loud conversation at

3.00pm it is because they are shouting and screaming at 4.00am,

keeping people awake and caution havoc in the area. The bushes are a

prime example. Where they are allowed to encroach on to the

highway. Partially sighted people walk into them. Mothers with babies

can't get past. Council enforce that to make sure they can't do it. The

CNN are a tool to enforce that. Is it too heavy handed a tool. One can

understand what people complain about in your constituency but is it

too heavy handed? I don't think it is. It doesn't first happen that you

get a notice. First you get a letter saying you are encroaching on to the

highway with your trees or you are shouting or swearing or whatever it

is. You get a warning and are told to do something about that. It is

not unreasonable. It is checked by environmental health officers and

you will at rest. You then have 21 days, to appeal to a magistrate F it

was just a child crying, I don't think any magistrate in the country

would enforce that. I think there is a mechanism. CPNs. We have spoken to

the Local Government Association and they say CPNs offer a quick way, a

quick redress, if you like for local residents' concerns and this is

ahead, before you get to any criminal prosecution. I think that,

these powers are seen as quick, it is not always a good thing, for

councils to be able it use powers easily and quickly. It is not a good

thing, in my view for an officer to have a bit of paper where they can

write in what thing you have to do and if you don't do t then it is a

criminal offence. What if you have been disrupting neighbours and the

local area where people are living for a long period of time and

actually the complapt in the past has been that councils haven't had

enough power to deal with people making snois ever Friday and

Saturday night, for example. - complaints. Would you not find that

disruptive? Of course. Most people have had experience of problems with

neighbours. There are statutory nuisance powers, but they set a high

test and it is an objective text the definition of statutory nuisance.

Detrimental effect, I spoke to people in councils when it was

coming through, they said what did it mean, they znth didn't know. I

think it is a subjective test that hasn't been through the course. Yes,

people have a right to appeal but really the council should have to go

to the court before they impose a law on you, rather than require you

employ your lawyer to defend yourself after the order has been

imposed. You can see a situation where some councils abuse this

power. There is a resident in Rotherham who was apparently ordered

to clean their windows inside and outside the house this. Would be an

extreme, I presume But they were also told to clean up their garden

and shrubs, it wasn't one thing in isolation. You think it is

appropriate? If they encroach into the high wane partially sighted

people are walking into them or mothers with babies have to walk on

to the road to get past, yes I think it should. Should they end up with a

criminal record, as a result? They would in anyway. So even though, you

say Josephine amton there are things in place to deal with them they have

been infecty. And Theresa May apparently brought these in because

the mechanism under the Labour Government has already too heavy

handed. So there are already protections in mranchts I wouldn't

say they have been ineffective. I think they are harder to use. Not

bad thinking. The example given, obstructing the highway, it is an

offence It is an offence to create a statutory nuisance to your

neighbours enjoyment of their property. It is an offence. And

noise abatement notices. But detrimental effect, has no legal

definition, nobody knows what it means. So you have orders, such as

currently in an Essex village there are free roaming peacocks, the owner

has been issued with an order to remove them within the next two

weeks or receive a criminal record. The villagers have set up a petition

defending her because they love them. It is not about empowering

communities, it is about empowering certain council officers to write on

a form what you have to do and what the penalty will be, and that

becomes the law. Do you think know need reform in that instance to

avoid the case described by Josephine Appleton? I think this

piece of work is helpful and helpful to Government. I think Government

should look at it and take notice F the process needs to be reformed

going forward, these things are helpful. If you tell people they

have to get rid of peacocks, it is not what it was set up for. If

people are arguing at 4 O'Clockam, night after night, this is what this

was for. Do you think it has the usceptibility of being abused, toop

blupt an issue, what are the real issues being brought by

constituents? This is one of the problems we have in all forms of

Government, that this sounds like there is a certain looseness,

subjectivity Government, that this sounds like

there is a certain looseness, subjectivity and inconsistency that

drives people the wall on both sides. Those who want action from it

and those on the receiving end T sounds to me, the process doesn't

sound right, you have one of these orders and you have effectively have

to fight it and you have no way of going through. The problem is we

have a breakdown in community and the way people behave that means we

have warring factions within different areas and now we are

starting where the state is intervening in, that which is a

shame but probably necessary. But I think the issue is that there needs

to be much stronger and stricter guidelines, listening - I support

some of the points you are making about protecting communities but I'm

list enning there, and saying, what we have is something that's too

loose. -- listening. There needs to be stronger guidelines to what can

be enagented when and what counts. Are you saying you want to get rid

of them altogether or would you be happy for them to be reformed and

guidelines tightened up? I can't see any need for these

notices. They replaced litter notices, but if it is serious, there

is already another power that would deal with that. This is being used

to supplant other powers, even in some cases, criminal offences.

People have received them for smoking drugs in their home. There

is a drugs law to deal with that. However, the Home Office is

currently revising the guidance, and that is a positive step to improve

people's rights. But I think they need to be scrapped. Thank you for

coming in. Now, are unpaid internships

a valuable form of work experience allowing young people a way

into the world of work? Or are they just a form

of exploitation which actually

reduce social mobility by allowing

posh kids to push their way ahead in the race for the

best-paid careers? At the weekend, the employment

minister confirmed that the government was looking at changing

the law. There is a story in the Mail

on Sunday this morning, that the Government is looking

at outlawing unpaid internships, Well, Rob, I think it is

important that young One of the big barriers

to getting a job is not having And so there is a role for work

experience but I think, particularly in the media,

in fashion, in these very sought-after occupations,

there is a concern... Well, they tend to go to middle

class kids, don't they? ...with unpaid internships,

those aren't actually accessible to everybody,

so I think it is right So it is part of Theresa May's

attack on the poshies. It is part of making sure

that we are fair to everybody and, you know, for social

mobility, it is important. for unpaid interns staffing

the photocopier and running the tea? Conservative MP Alec Shelbrooke

thinks it should be, and Kate Andrews of the IEA thinks

that the Government should butt out. Alec Shelbrooke, what is wrong with

a bit of unpaid work experience? It is not a bit of unpaid work

experience. It is months on end that effectively, unless you have the

wealth behind you to be able to live in London on a meme of ?900 a month

-- a minimum, you need friends and relatives living around London. I

say London because roughly 80% of internships are in the capital city.

For everybody who says it would reduce opportunity, where does that

opportunity like? It lies with those wealthy enough to exploit it. Isn't

that true? If you can't afford to be unpaid for months on end or the bank

of mum and dad aren't putting you up in a flat, you cannot afford to take

unpaid internship. There is no doubt that paid internships are a

fantastic thing and I would encourage big companies who have the

ability to pay therein terms. If you go to glass door .co .uk, it looks

like companies like Google and Facebook are paying their interns

thousands of pounds a month. So those internships do exist. My

concern is for small businesses and the charity sector. I work at the

Institute of Economic Affairs and we bring 100 interns into the building

over a year. We are a charity, for nonprofit. And if all of a sudden,

we have to pay those 100 interns the minimum wage, we would have to cut

the programme. So you would stop offering internships, or could you

just offer a few? We would try to offer a few and we do have bursary

schemes where we try to offer them to those from working class

backgrounds, but the opportunity would be lost. You are a charity and

you can have volunteers work for a charity. I think you are confusing

that with internships. I am not, because they are different things

that happen over the course of a programme. One of the complaint is

that it is just cheap labour, you get someone to do your photocopying.

If you think you are in an internship that you think should be

classified as a job and you are getting long term projects for

months on end, you need to report that. The law allows that. That is

where I come in. This is the specific point. It is all very well

saying you can report it. That is not the reality we live in. The bill

is an adjustment of the minimum wage act. The issue here is, how do you

make sure that the government intervenes to make sure people are

protected in the workplace? As Theresa May said in her conference

speech, some government intervention is sometimes the right thing to do.

The bill itself precludes people of compulsory school age because work

experience is an important thing, and it also precludes people on

accredited degree courses. And what about size of businesses? No. So in

the media and charity and fashion industries, where there is very

little money to go around often, you would prefer to take those

internships off-the-shelf, because those businesses could not afford to

pay them? Are you seriously telling me that the fashion industry is a

pauper industry? If it is at the top that are making a loss of profits,

yes, they can pay. But you saw the Mail on Sunday story, which was one

I researched, about Vivienne Westwood. This is hardly a small

company. Vivienne Westwood does not represent most people in the fashion

industry. But you do admit that actually only those who could afford

to, even in small think tanks or businesses or charities, it would

only be the rich that could benefit from those? You admit that they are

only an option for people who can afford them? This is such an

important point, the cost of living. The fact that London rent prices are

so high that most people, even if they are working in London, can't

afford to pay them for a month, is a huge issue. If the government could

get behind planning liberation to allow rents to go down, these issues

would be helped. This is a good idea. Even when I was a small

company, we paid the London living wage to our interns. And that is a

real living wage, not the George Osborne rebrand of the living wage.

So you could afford that? Well, there was a slight difference.

Coming in for a week or two for work experience is different, but someone

coming in on a three-month internship programme, I think you

can afford to pay for. My charity does the same. We pay internship

programmes. Volunteering is different. This corporation we are

talking in is one of the worst for doing this. I know many people who

started at the BBC because they were able to do six months of unpaid

work, and that was how they got in. They came from affluent families. I

am a boy who would not have had that opportunity. I could not have done a

three-month internship when I graduated from university. I

couldn't have afforded to. It does hit social mobility. Yes, we have to

help charities but ultimately we already have nepotism that helps the

children of the rich and powerful and connected people, and then if

you add in a financial element, it is an interesting issue, the way you

are arguing it. Is your bill going to happen? Martin supports it and

Kate doesn't, but the point is that there have been a lot of politicians

giving the rhetoric about doing something on issues like this in

terms of promoting social mobility, and nothing happens. David Cameron

vetoed the idea from Nick Clegg in the coalition government, so the

government doesn't have a good record. I was told I would have to

resign if I put this private member's bill forward. I am a

backbench MP. I have been pushing on this issue for over two and a half

years now. You chip away and raise it up the agenda. In the last week

or so, what I have achieved has hugely pushed this forward. What

have you achieved? We are talking about it now, and you heard the

employment minister. He was equivocal. You have to keep pushing

it. Will this bill becomes law? I hope so. It is harder than ever for

young people to get on the career ladder and if the government were to

bring this in and we were to see the opportunity for internships and work

placements dropped off significantly because people couldn't afford to be

paid on that small business level... I don't accept that. YouGov said

that over 40% of people offered an internship have two then turned down

because they financially can't afford it. That is a huge number.

This isn't just a minor issue. Even if it is unpaid, a lot of those

unpaid internships come through family, friends and contacts. So

actually, there is still an in-built disadvantage. So making them paid

would put it on a level playing field. The real issues of the day

are issues of nepotism and education not enabling people to get to these

opportunities. We have heard about the cost of living, but what you are

advocating is the idea that if you force small businesses who cannot

pay for 100 people a year to be on the minimum wage for a period of

time at their company, you seem to believe that they will continue to

do that. You have not rebutted that. Companies should be able to pay

staff. They are not staffed, they are interns. If you are a staff

member... That is the problem. They are being used to provide real work.

We know this goes on. They do genuine work in institutions, and

you are saying that business doesn't have to pay them minimum wage. Some

of us have been campaigning for real rights for people who go into

employment and do real work for a long time, and I think it is a bit

rich to come and use the charity excuse, which is a different sector.

In small businesses have to pay their staff as well. If anybody out

there believe that they as a staff member are actually a staff member

and not an intern... Come to the Institute of economic affairs, we

will give you an internship. Bring your niece or nephew and see that it

is a learning process. They get events, discussions, lectures. But

if there is a value of the work they are doing, why not pay for it? If a

company has the money to do it, I would encourage them to do so. But a

lot of companies don't. We heard these arguments before when we were

banning the slave trade. What? Do you compare it to that? That is

insulting to the history of slavery. To compare it to the slave trade

colour isn't that a bit of a leap? It is a form of slavery. We have

just had the Modern Slavery Act. Voluntary work is slavery? Kate, you

respond. People who are desperate to get on the career ladder who want to

go into sectors that do not necessarily have a lot of money, who

are volunteering their time and to meet the right people, you're

comparing to slaves. That is though deeply insulting to anybody who has

been forced to do something. On that note, I am going to finally ask you

about student debt. Students are paying back all this money, what is

a few months of unpaid work experience going to do? Well, we

have big problems in the student finance system at the moment. In

Britain, when you sign a contract, that contact is locked into law.

When you get a loan, those conditions are locked into law. The

exception is student loans, or whether government has

retrospectively changed the conditions after students signed up

to those contracts. That is a big issue going on right now. The one

advantage of doing an internship is that you don't earn enough to start

repaying back your student loan, but I would still want people to earn

more money. It is not slavery, and that is a dangerous route to start

pushing it. Having said that, you keep fluffing about small businesses

who can't afford to get people to work for them, and I am asking you,

what about people who come from non-privileged backgrounds who have

no income? What do they do? You ruin social mobility. We have to finish

it there. Thank you both very much. Now, a thinktank which campaigns

for lower taxes has developed an app which puts local councils

in the spotlight. The Taxpayers' Alliance

says its new app, which pulls

together different sets of data on council spending,

will help people in England see what's happened to their council tax

bills over the past 20 years or how much the head

of their council is paid. Some local authorities

have welcomed the idea - but not everyone is convinced it

gives a full and fair picture. Ever thought - gosh,

I wonder what the council tax Or, hmm, what are councillors'

allowances in this local authority. Now the answer is even easier

to find out, apparently. You go on to the app,

pop your postcode in and instantly nine different reports come up

that we have done over the last It really gives tax payers

lots of information from the amount paid to staff, the amount

of Government art that is on show, trade union office space,

lots of different information that arms the taxpayer with the data

that they need to hold their local This is all information that's

already available, though, isn't it? A lot of them make the data

available, what they don't do is make it easy to digest for tax

payers. So, I think the problem is that

you'd have to go on, download the spread sheet,

download all the PDFs try and look through them all to see

the information that you need. What we wanted to do was make it

as simple as possible for tax payers to be able to grab the data

they need instantly. The Taxpayers' Alliance say

transparency and efficiency go They're particularly

impressed with Hammersmith and Fulham a Labour Council,

whose leader seems to agree. I think transparency does make

for an efficient council but the fact is that we have had

successive Labour and Conservative administrations that have taken

council tax very seriously. The difference is, this year

the Government have told us that at the fully expect us to put

council tax up by 3.75% and they've removed the incentive for freezing

or cutting council tax but we are still one of the handful

of councils in the country who have Last year we were the only

council in London The reason for that,

we are taking a ruthless approach to stripping out waste

and putting money back in people's pockets and rebuilding

front line services. Hammersmith and Fulham council say

engagement with their They recently launched

a Disabled People's This campaigner welcomes the efforts

here, but warns that judging any council on headline figures

could be misleading. If you are in a low council

tax local authority, if behind that there are huge cuts

affecting services, then a low council tax isn't the be all and end

all of the information that local The Local Government Association

insists councils are the most efficient part of the public sector

and say the new app is unnecessary, because it replicates information

that is already available. But if you do want to

have a look Your TPA I'm joined now by Dia Chakravarty,

the political director of the Taxpayers' Alliance,

and the MP Tristram Hunt, who chairs the Labour Party's

committee on local government. Welcome to both of you. Dia, first

of all, data on council allowances and how much people get paid, it is

out there already. You are not adding anything to the sum knowledge

of constituents? You would have thought so. Some councils are much

better than putting their data out than others. It is also about how

the data is presented. Our focus here was to make sure it is

presented in a which which is easily accessible, people can understand.

Spreads sheets are a beautiful thing... You may say that. But all

the data can be difficult to navigate. It is difficult they are,

and they have an obligation to put that information out there, even if

you are arguing it is slightly difficult to access. Is this not

more a political point than it is actual lay point about being easier

and accessible it people sn.s it is about transparency. It is about

everybodiry single council behaving in a way which makes it ease canny

for every resident to access the information. . What's not to like

I'm in favour of transpan sane using technology and platforms and apps to

engage with local and central government, it is brilliant. So I'm

for the technology. I think the app itself is reductive, because what

you see is the salaries, fines, contributions, fine, what you don't

see, for example, is, as it, were how much a council has invested in

local parks, which has saved money in public health. How much a council

has supported music lessons which has transformed the life

expectancies of young people. So you can be more creative about how you

think about local authority expenditure, so you can drive

efficiencies, I'm all for, that but you can also think - we have

wonderful local authorities doing interesting creative things, why

don't we have that, as well as the PEPs contributions. What do you say

to that Dia? It is an app, a civil app we have created in house. It is

one-sided. All we are doing is getting the informing out there. So

your reporter chose to speak to Hammersmith because with the

information available it her t seems like a suitable... Because they have

reduced costs overall and managed to bring down council tax. On one of

your things is a link to Government art fund. Now lots of local

authorities have local museums which are under terrible pressure at the

moment in temples allowing access to these great collections. . - in

terms of allowing. But many people will be surprised local authorities

have art. I think they should have art and young people should go and

see it and what your apps suggests is it is a bit of a west of money I

think it is coloured because what the app or paper suggested is if,

say, I don't know, Hammersmith has X number of art works which is

people's property there should be an onus on the council to make that

available to the people. And that's a basic point of that paper that a

lot of councils sit on a lot of art which is wonderful but we just don't

get to see it. That was the point in that particular paper. That was the

point. Why not have nice pictures of that on your app so you can go to

Hammersmith and say - I wanted to see this wonderful mural. I don't

like your taste in art. It is a celebration of the cultural

impainting oppeople's life. But it is the conversation we are having.

It is putting the information out there for the public to access. You

need more in there. Get Tristan to do the app for you. You know It was

a very basic app to get a conversation started. We think it is

important people can access the information, which, as you say, it

should be out in the public anyway. I think, as you say, it is there if

you try hard but back to Tristan's initial point, it is slightly

one-sided. If you are not presenting a case of added value, if you are

only presenting a list of figures, which is where your spread sheet

argument slightly falls down, in the sense it doesn't offer the full

picture. Because, I presume the point of it is you want to see

councils reduce their costs further. That's the sort of result? We often

find that councils just tend to forget that they are spend other

people's money. Spending tax payers' money. That's a fair nunchts for

example, if we look at some -- that's fir enough If we look for

Kent, I think the council tax there has gone up almost every single year

over 20 years, there was one single tax cut. We know that the Chief

Executive of that council earns the high nest this council trif all

council leaders. - highest in this country of all counsellors leaders.

They went on a fact-finding trip to Disneyland. How How would that

enhance the local people If that informs how they use Dreamland in

Margate to regenerate coastal resorts as a credible use of money,

fine. But my point is that local authorities arep spending 22% less

today than they were in 200910. I think #24er he - 2009-10. So I think

they are well aware. It is communities like Stoke-on-Trent

which have teaken the harest hit It is a decrease of 22%. Councils say

they have been stripped to the bone. Surely you welcome something like

this, about trans pansy, people can make up their own mind and as Dia

said it is all about spending money. Now, I am a biassed journalist. It

is not a phrase you hear on the BBC often. I am a biassed journalist

because the top of my site says we are here to cut your bills and fight

your corner. We are pro-consumer. #50i78' biassed I declare T the tax

payers' allowance is a biassed organisation with a stated aim. It

is not biassed in the state. You want to reduce the amount of tax

payers' money being spent. As long as your app is clearest about your

bias and stance and what you are doing it, and approximate people

read in that context, it'll provide good, transparent information and I

support T if it is being used and being seen as a neutral platform

that isn't steering, then I think you have the problem. Do you have

your stated aim on it? We very clearly state we exist to cut out

waste in the public sector and of course, to bring down tax as a

condition sequence of that. I don't think it is a surprise to everybody

The challenge is this sh do when an organisation there to, as you put

it, strip out waste, implicitly suggests that having art galleries

and libraries and museums within local authorities should be viewed

within the context of waste, then it is problematic. It is It is a waste

if it is not available to the people, and it is then true. It

hasn't been a waste having you on. Snr now, it is back to our quiz.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

The question was, playwright Alistair Beaton has teamed up

with Yes Minister creator Jonathan Lynn to write a new play.

But which political relationship does it explore?

Was it a) Nigel Farage and Douglas Carswell,

Liam Fox, David Davies and Boris Johnson,

c) Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott

So Martin, what's the correct answer?

At least give us an answer? My stint would be that it would be the three

Brexiteers. - my instinct The Ukip one we have

just had the programme which was very funny about Nigel Farage. Did

you watch that? I z I found it very amusing. What about the others? I

think Diane Abbott and Corbyn, there are better relationship was Corbyn

you would want to explore. That's too nice. You want friction. I would

go for the Brexiteers. You are right. ! Yeah. You don't anything

for it by the way. ! Not even a mug. Maybe. We are cutting costs. The two

writers were inspired by the prospect of David Daviser Orgreave,

Orgreave, Boris Johnson and Liam Fox, sharing the mansion, at

Chevening. The PM's decision to make

the three Brexiteers - Boris Johnson, Liam Fox

and David Davis - share the stately home of Chevening in Kent

is unlikely to turn out to become a picture of loved-up

hippy communal bliss, especially as the three are rumoured

not to be the best of friends. But given that the Jacobean

mansion has 3,500 acres of land and 115 rooms,

they are unlikely to be living on top on each other

or even find each other. Nevertheless, the Yes Minister

co-creator, Jonathan Lynn, instantly declared the "house-share"

comedy gold saying that Theresa May And now Lynn has teamed up

with our next guest It is tru, you couldn't make it up.

Three ministers sharing a grace and favour home. A gift to political

satire? Very kind of our Prime Minister. Not renowned for her sense

of humour but she has given us a gi. Congratulations Martin for being

brilliant and getting it right. If you would like to invest in the

show, I know you have a lot of money, come back to us. No, it is

great. These three people, who are going to have to share this rather

lovely building, they are not the ideal sharers, they are not the most

flexible and gentle of people. Plait mates You can't imagine them rubbing

along nicely in a friendly way together. So the idea is, really, it

is a great comic premise, but also will let us put the boot in just a

little bit. Just a little bit. Who will you put it in or what? Well I'm

in the hugely enthusiastic about Brexit, neither is Jonathan Lynne.

It is not very well-organised. We have a Prime Minister who says

Brexit means Brexit and the reason she says Brexit means Brexit is

doesn't know what Brexit means. Nobody does. We are with a

Government that doesn't really know where it is going to be going. Are

you going to follow current events and track it closely? We'll probably

do a lot of last-minute writing and have a very stressed cast learning

new lines at the last minute. You are not new to that? . Do youville a

quoshging title? Well the Three Brexiteers but it might change. Will

it be a lit it bit like Yes Minister, meets the Manor Born.

Well, it will be funny. And perhaps a little savage in places. I do hope

So these three people will be probably dealing with the probably

the biggest constitutional change for 100 years or something and it is

very hard not to relish the prospect of having Boris on stage. Who is

going to play Boris? The theatre is his proper residence. Is that where

he should be? Do you think he has missed his vocation? He is wasting

his time in politics. He is our very first comedy Foreign Minister. Have

you asked him about a change of career? We will ask him along. But

not to star? We'll let him come to the first night. I think you should

ask viewers for a suggested title. I was going with Grace Favour and

Boris. On that note, thank you very much for coming N we look forward to

T thank you for being our Guesting of today.

I'll be back at 11.30 tomorrow with Andrew for live coverage

of Prime Minister's Questions.

He's a scientist, brilliant apparently.