Browse content similar to 31/10/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:37. | :00:38. | |
The Government comes under fire over its funding | :00:39. | :00:41. | |
for the NHS in England, as MPs say the Prime Minister's | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
claim that it's getting a ?10 billion boost is "false". | :00:46. | :00:51. | |
The race to replace Nigel Farage heats up as nominations | :00:52. | :00:53. | |
One candidate pulls out at the last minute and accuses the top | :00:54. | :01:00. | |
of the party of treating the contest "like a coronation". | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
Work and Pensions Secretary Damian Green promises personalised support | :01:04. | :01:09. | |
to help more people move from benefits into work. | :01:10. | :01:11. | |
We'll look at the Government's plans for welfare reform. | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
And we've exclusive behind-the-scenes access | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
to the House of Commons voting lobby, where old traditions | :01:20. | :01:21. | |
are being updated with digital technology. | :01:22. | :01:30. | |
All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
of the programme today, the Minister for Disabled People, | :01:36. | :01:37. | |
And, soon, the Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary, Debbie Abrahams. | :01:38. | :01:46. | |
Let's start with the warning today from the Conservative chair | :01:47. | :01:48. | |
of the Health Select Committee that the NHS in England | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
is under enormous pressure and needs more more money. | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
Sarah Wollaston also says that Government claims that the NHS | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
in England is due to receive an extra ?10 billion | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
It gives a false impression that the NHS is awash with cash, | :02:01. | :02:07. | |
and in fact if you look at the way that figure is reached, | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
it's by adding another year to the Spending Review and also | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
by changing pots of money from one part of the health budget | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
to another, so for example taking money out of public health | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
And so it can give an impression that more is given when in fact | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
the real figure is very considerably lower. | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
Sarah Wallerstein there. The real figure, she says, is 4.5 billion, so | :02:34. | :02:41. | |
less than half. Is she right, or the Government? I have a great deal of | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
respect for Sarah and she has said good things about the need to get | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
more money into prevention and primary care, but I think she is | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
wrong on the numbers. We have funded the NHS' own plan, they asked us, we | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
asked them how much they needed, they said in Italy 8 billion, that | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
rose to ten and we have given them that money. But hang on, the money | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
is going to NHS in England, which is, albeit important, one part of | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
the NHS. What Sarah Wollaston was saying is that other parts of the | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
NHS, such as social care, is losing money, money taken from the budget | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
to boost another part, so the NHS as a whole is not getting a ?10 billion | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
boost. Two points, first of all we have funded the NHS' own plan, the | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
second thing is, with regard to the other services such as social care | :03:33. | :03:40. | |
that local Government funds, local Government reserves have doubled | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
since 2010, there are 22.5 billion currently sat in local Government | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
reserve accounts. Every local Government person on this programme | :03:51. | :03:53. | |
has said they have been cut to the bone and social care has been | :03:54. | :03:56. | |
starved over a longer period of time then just boosting reserves | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
recently. Don't get me wrong, there are challenges there but money is | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
going into those areas, 5.3 billion in the better care fund and we have | :04:05. | :04:07. | |
enabled local governments to raise its own money, | :04:08. | :04:24. | |
we have relaxed the rules around how much council tax can be raised | :04:25. | :04:26. | |
locally, provided it is spent on social care. But money is not the | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
only issue here, the way we are going to get all the money that is | :04:30. | :04:32. | |
available in the system to work best is if we enable people at local | :04:33. | :04:34. | |
level to put that money into prevention and early services. Not | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
piling it on to acute care. I take that point, but she is making a | :04:38. | :04:39. | |
serious accusation that the Government has misled the public, | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
have they? Know. So she is wrong? Absolutely. She says you only arrive | :04:46. | :04:53. | |
at the budget of ?10 billion in terms of a boost over five years by | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
shifting money from public health budget and health education and | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
training, and also including an extra year in the calculation, so | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
2015-2015 rather than just the term of this Parliament. That is | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
misleading, it is slight of hand? Know, this is funding the NHS' own | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
plan. There are other issues she raises about particular pressures | :05:18. | :05:19. | |
that health care faces, inflation and so forth on drug costs and | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
things like that, but this is about as supplying the money the NHS said | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
it needed. We were the only political party to make that | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
commitment at the general election and since then... That has been | :05:33. | :05:40. | |
contested, saying it is aimed misinterpretation by the | :05:41. | :05:42. | |
Conservative Government. East so you are saying money has not shifted | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
from any other budget and including the extra year is not misleading? I | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
do not follow what Sarah says when she says we are claiming that the | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
system is awash with cash. We have never claimed that, we note that | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
every year there are increasing pressures, an older population being | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
just one of them, so we know that there are serious challenges out | :06:08. | :06:09. | |
there but we have made this a priority, we have said to the NHS, | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
give us your plan, tell us what you need and we will meet that. In | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
addition to that, we have enabled local Government, on top of the | :06:20. | :06:22. | |
better care fund, which is going into social care, we have enabled it | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
to raise its own money. Well, she said she will have conversations | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
with Philip Hammond, the Treasury, about this, so that should be | :06:32. | :06:33. | |
interesting. Thank you. It's Halloween, so what ghostly | :06:34. | :06:35. | |
presence is supposed to be Is it a) Winston | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
Churchill's cigar smoke? B) The apparition of Ed Balls' mad | :06:42. | :06:43. | |
professor on Strictly? C) The wails of former | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
Prime Minister Viscount Goderich, known as 'the blubberer' for his | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
tendency to cry while in office. Or, d) the feline ghost of former | :06:53. | :07:00. | |
chief mouser Humphrey the cat. At the end of the show Penny | :07:01. | :07:11. | |
and Debbie, who has now arrived, Welfare reform was one | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
of the centrepieces of David Cameron's programme | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
when the Conservatives first came Today the Government has announced | :07:20. | :07:21. | |
new plans to help more disabled people into employment, | :07:22. | :07:33. | |
which they say will provide a more "targeted and personalised" way | :07:34. | :07:35. | |
to help more people find jobs. But with pressure on Ministers | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
to make work pay and reduce welfare Damian Green said earlier this month | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
that his vision was 'a welfare state fit for the world of work | :07:42. | :07:49. | |
in the 21st century'. So what issues are on the Work | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
and Pensions Secretary's desk? Work capability assessments, | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
the scheme that assesses claimants of disability benefits, | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
are set for an overhaul as part Statutory sick pay and GP fit notes | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
are also to be reviewed as part of an effort to help disabled people | :08:05. | :08:11. | |
back into work. But the Government still faces | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
criticism for failures by Concentrix, a private company | :08:16. | :08:17. | |
contracted to tackle benefit fraud that has been accused of incorrectly | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
withdrawing tax credits The flagship universal credit scheme | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
is up and running but is not forecast to be fully | :08:25. | :08:31. | |
delivered until 2022 - 11 years after it | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
was first announced. The Conservative MP Heidi Allen has | :08:37. | :08:43. | |
called for cuts to work incentives in the scheme made | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
by George Osborne to be reversed. And there is increased scrutiny | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
over the triple lock - the Government's pledge | :08:51. | :08:52. | |
that the state pension will always rise by wages, prices or 2.5%, | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
whichever is higher. Former Work and Pensions Secretary | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
Iain Duncan Smith told the Sunday Politics yesterday | :09:01. | :09:02. | |
that it was time to scrap the pledge and spend | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
the money elsewhere. Well, the Work and Pensions | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
Secretary, Damian Green, was talking earlier this morning | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
about those new plans to help more Well, the system isn't working well | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
enough for large numbers of people. We've got huge numbers of people, | :09:16. | :09:23. | |
unprecedentedly high numbers of people, in work, | :09:24. | :09:25. | |
about 80%, but just under 50% And what I want to do is to tap | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
into the huge amount of talent there is there, | :09:29. | :09:36. | |
and also most of those people do want to work, and so the system | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
needs to change so that We aspire to be a Government that | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
works for everyone and that includes all those people who want to work | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
but now can't, and that requires changes not just in Jobcentre Plus, | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
the things I'm directly responsible for, but also in the health service | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
and in the attitude of employers. Damian Green there. The Government | :09:58. | :10:11. | |
is reviewing the work capability assessment, by giving that are you | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
admitting it is not currently fit for purpose? I think it could be | :10:15. | :10:21. | |
improved dramatically both in terms of the process, currently we don't | :10:22. | :10:24. | |
make good use of all of the bits of information different parts of | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
Government has, we require people to feel into many forms and give the | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
State information, the same information, over and again, so | :10:33. | :10:35. | |
there is a lot that can still be done with the process. We have | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
obviously made some announcements on changing that, for example not | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
requiring people with degenerative conditions to go through retests, | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
but we think there are further more fundamental reforms that are | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
required, particularly splitting out the finance from any conditionality | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
that we place on an individual. Why has it taken so long? I am conscious | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
that I have been in the Department for 18 weeks and my in tray looks | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
very different to the one Iain Duncan Smith had to tackle when he | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
took over the department, so I think we are building on the reforms that | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
he has done. But it is a slow process. I think there were some | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
other things that were very pressing that he wanted to tackle. But we are | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
now in a position because of work done and other reforms that the work | :11:26. | :11:28. | |
capability assessment has undergone to take this fundamental look and I | :11:29. | :11:35. | |
think it is long overdue, but very important that we start the | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
consultation. And something that perhaps should have been done by | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
Iain Duncan Smith, having got as far as he did with the reforms? We are | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
continuing a programme of work that he set out. The reason this is so | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
important is that currently you have people with a health condition, or | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
who have a disability, who are parked with no support, so | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
ironically those that need the most help don't get it because we have | :12:00. | :12:06. | |
money attached to the conditions that we place on someone. That needs | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
to be reformed. We will talk about some of the incentives for people | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
with chronic illnesses or long-term conditions in a moment, but do you | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
welcome the fact that this review is happening, even if you think it is | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
long overdue, is it the right review? As you have just said, | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
actions speak louder than words. We have known for a number of years | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
that the work capability assessment is not working, it dehumanises | :12:32. | :12:34. | |
people, there is a piece of research at last year that shows it | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
exacerbates mental health conditions, increasing suicides. | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
There are all sorts of issues associated with not just the work | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
capability assessment but other aspects of it. Do you accept that | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
assessment that that is what it has done to people either disabled and | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
claiming benefit or other people with long-term conditions who have | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
to go through that work assessment, that it has caused them to become | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
more ill or in some places commit suicide? I think that leaving aside | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
the fundamental reforms we want to do to the policy, the delivery of | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
that policy is absolutely critical. I think even if you don't have | :13:13. | :13:19. | |
anxiety or depression or anything that could be exacerbated by such a | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
process, if you are having to go through an enormous amount of | :13:24. | :13:29. | |
bureaucracy and an unnecessary number of assessments, that is not | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
going to do anyone any good at all, so I think it is the process as well | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
as what we are trying to get out of that. So you admit it has not helped | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
in many people's cases in terms of trying to deal with what are | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
probably difficult things? The Government's statement include | :13:48. | :13:49. | |
references to helping people with long-term conditions but we have | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
heard to date on the BBC that people with long-term conditions such as | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
rheumatoid arthritis or Parkinson's, there is a of threat or incentive | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
hanging over those people that they are going to be reassessed despite | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
the fact that they have long-term conditions which would make it | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
difficult to go back to work, do you accept that? Part of the reason we | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
are doing the paper jointly with health is because we realise it is | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
not just employment support interventions that need to be | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
improved, it is also about people who need access to pain management, | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
physiotherapy, a whole raft of interventions, mental health support | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
being a particularly poignant one. That is why we are producing this | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
paper today, because we know that, to date, the systems have not worked | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
to assist those people. But let me be very clear that those people who | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
are not able to work will not be required to work. That will come as | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
some comfort to people, of course the definition of who is not able to | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
work will still be up for interpretation. Can I just put to | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
you first of all, you said yesterday the Government's approach was | :15:03. | :15:05. | |
ideological grip on with the sole purpose of targeting the most | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
vulnerable in society, what is your evidence for that? First of all let | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
me comment on what Penny has just said. We are in the context of an | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
NHS financial crisis. Not just a social care | :15:19. | :15:29. | |
crisis, we are talking about support for disabled people, some basic | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
support about helping them get out of bed in the morning. Where on | :15:34. | :15:36. | |
earth is that going to come from? This is completely pie in the sky, | :15:37. | :15:38. | |
we have employment support cuts for disabled people by more than a | :15:39. | :15:40. | |
third. Again, how is this about helping get disabled people into | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
work? It is all very well, as I said, they are fine words but | :15:46. | :15:48. | |
actions speak louder. So you will wait to see what the actions are, | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
but come back to the question, ideological driven with the purpose | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
of targeting the most vulnerable in society, do you stand by that | :15:57. | :15:59. | |
claimed that that is what the Government is doing? If we look at | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
what has happened over the last few years, nearly ?30 billion of cuts to | :16:04. | :16:09. | |
7 million people, another 1500 per year for people on EFA WRAG, these | :16:10. | :16:17. | |
are the most vulnerable people in society and we should not target | :16:18. | :16:20. | |
them. There is no evidence in terms of the approach the Government is | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
taking, this is about getting people off loaded, purely and simply. So | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
you are targeting the most vulnerable because the cuts show | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
that? I think that is very wrong and there is... You are right, it is | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
wrong! There is a mood to portray not just Government but also those | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
people providing those services in our job centres as people that don't | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
care, and this issue should be an issue... People have come to me and | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
said people are being targeted. Don't talk over each other, finish | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
your sentence. I had a constituent who worked in a job centre for 20 | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
years and came to me and said claimants are being targeted, there | :17:05. | :17:10. | |
are targets about getting people off-loaded, sanctions through the | :17:11. | :17:11. | |
work capability assessment. If you have targets driven by | :17:12. | :17:23. | |
profit, surely you will get a situation where people are treated | :17:24. | :17:26. | |
as if they are in a sausage factory? It used to be the case that | :17:27. | :17:36. | |
Jobcentre staff was rewarded depending on how they were | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
performing. This was not a good way to monitor things. What we should be | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
measuring and what the thrust of the green paper is and the changes we | :17:47. | :17:49. | |
have made over the last 18 weeks is measuring individuals' distance | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
travelled. There will be some people whose goals are to get back into | :17:55. | :18:01. | |
full-time work. There will be some whose goal is meaningful activity, | :18:02. | :18:04. | |
and some will not be able to do any of that. We have to look at what | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
support that individual needs. By companies that the government has | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
employed to do these jobs have not had a good track record in dealing | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
with people on a human basis so far, if you believe all the stories. And | :18:17. | :18:25. | |
on that, Concentrix, the company contacted by the government to | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
tackle tax credit fraud which was accused of incorrectly withdrawing | :18:30. | :18:31. | |
benefits from hundreds of families, do you accept that ministers bear | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
responsibility for this by incentivising payment by results? | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
Well, the issues we have with tax credits are serious. And they are | :18:42. | :18:48. | |
unacceptable. I have had them in my own constituency. But we need to | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
ensure that whether it is in a contract, whether we performance | :18:55. | :18:57. | |
manage our staff, the right incentives are there. But those were | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
the wrong incentives. If you incentivised by payment by results, | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
you are going to get the sort of very sad stories that we hear is as | :19:08. | :19:10. | |
a result of going through the system. In the case of the tax | :19:11. | :19:17. | |
credits the problem is some of the IT systems they have been using. We | :19:18. | :19:25. | |
had a case the other day of someone who was accused of living in a shop, | :19:26. | :19:32. | |
because they were living above a shop. Does the government over those | :19:33. | :19:39. | |
people an apology? Absolutely. We have to accept that the policy is | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
one thing and even if we have the perfect policy, we have to ensure | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
that it is delivered in an excellent way. With regard to the Department | :19:49. | :19:59. | |
for Work and Pensions, our staff are subject matter experts with these | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
issues. They are not medical professionals. That is nonsense. We | :20:05. | :20:14. | |
have expert disability advisers. You have one specialist disability | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
adviser for every 600 people. How can you say you are committed? That | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
is why we are bringing out another 300. On the basis that Penny | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
Mordaunt says ministers should apologise for the tax credit | :20:29. | :20:31. | |
debacle, which meant hundreds of families had their tax credits | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
stopped, do you welcome that apology? I do. The statement of last | :20:36. | :20:43. | |
week was a very measured one. And now, when we look at what will be in | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
the contracts in future for work capability assessments, do you | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
accept Penny Mordaunt's word that it would be different and that it will | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
not be incentivising payment by results? Performance management is | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
key. Governments of all colours have not been good around contracting, | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
both in terms of the design and in terms of performance managing it. We | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
all need to get better. But I would like to know what we are going to do | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
about access to work. With 1.3 million disabled people who want to | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
work and only 35,000 able to get access to work to help them get back | :21:21. | :21:27. | |
to work, the figures don't match. I am interested in the specifics | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
around that. What about the comment Iain Duncan Smith made at the | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
weekend. More than half of the work and pensions budget goes on | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
benefits. He suggested it might be time to do away with the triple | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
lock. Do you agree? I don't. As a chairman of the all party group on | :21:48. | :21:50. | |
ageing, I would point out that the older you are, your cost of living | :21:51. | :21:58. | |
goes up. Is it affordable? I think it is and I think it is important | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
that we protect those benefits for pensioners. Do you agree? | :22:02. | :22:09. | |
Absolutely. What about the welfare cap on how much the government | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
spends overall on social security benefits? It is popular but it has | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
been breached every year since it has been brought in. Is there any | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
point continuing with it? It is important that we have welfare | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
spending under control. But we also need to ensure that the reach of our | :22:29. | :22:39. | |
programmes is as they need to be. Our green paper has not been | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
published yet, both but there will be a focus on that. We have to | :22:44. | :22:46. | |
ensure that not only the reach, but the quality of these programmes is | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
there. The cuts that George Osborne introduced to work incentives, | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
should they be reversed as Heidi Allen said? There are no plans to do | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
that. What I would take to Heidi and others who are concerned about that | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
is to look at the whole package for those individuals in terms of the | :23:08. | :23:14. | |
living wage and their personal tax contributions. According to the | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
Resolution Foundation, a single parent with a child under four | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
working full-time on the minimum wage would receive ?3600 less. How | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
does that help the families who are just managing, the very people | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
Theresa May says she wants to help? I met that organisation last week | :23:32. | :23:34. | |
and I would say that you have to look of a package of support we are | :23:35. | :23:37. | |
giving people in the round, which includes those other things. This is | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
outrageous. Universal credit was meant to be introduced to make work | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
pay and we supported it on that basis. On average, 2.5 million | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
families will be over ?2000 a year worse off. We now have a situation | :23:53. | :23:55. | |
where there are more families who are in work living in poverty than | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
there are workless families. This is a travesty and it has happened under | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
this government's what. Two thirds of the 4 million children living in | :24:05. | :24:07. | |
poverty are from working families. We must reverse these cuts if we are | :24:08. | :24:10. | |
to have a meaningful impact. After the false start | :24:11. | :24:17. | |
earlier this autumn, when Diane James lasted just 18 days | :24:18. | :24:19. | |
in the job, Ukip's search Our political correspondent | :24:20. | :24:22. | |
Alex Forsyth is keeping a close eye It seems that the nominees are | :24:23. | :24:37. | |
dropping like fliess yeah. When this contest was announced, which was | :24:38. | :24:39. | |
itself a surprise after Diane James did just 18 days in the job, there | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
was a flurry of people who thought they would throw their hat in the | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
ring for the next Ukip leader role. But as of today, when nominations | :24:49. | :24:51. | |
have closed, we know of only four left in the running. This morning, | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
the latest candidate to dropout was Raheem Kassam. He is a former aide | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
to Nigel Farage, one of the first to declare that he would stand for the | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
leadership this time. He only did his formal launch on Friday, a | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
couple of days ago. Over the weekend in the papers, a he got a lot of | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
coverage, so it came as a surprise when he decided to withdraw this | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
morning. He said in his statement that he thought the path to victory | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
was too narrow. Read into that that he thinks senior figures in the | :25:22. | :25:24. | |
party are getting behind Paul Nuttall and so there was little | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
chance of him winning. He also cited some anger at the media, saying | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
journalists have turned up at his parents' home, and also fundraising. | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
It was thought that the multimillionaire backer Arron Banks | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
was behind Raheem Kassam, but he said in a statement this morning | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
that they only had enough money to run a digital campaign based on | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
Westminster. He didn't think that would be effective, so that was part | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
of the reason he pulled out. I have spoken to Mr Kassam and he said he | :25:51. | :25:53. | |
did still have the support of Arron Banks, but he did not want to take a | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
lot of donations to come second, so he stood down. We will get the final | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
list of candidates this afternoon and the hustings start tomorrow. Did | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
he also imply that the system had been rigged? He said he had asked | :26:08. | :26:10. | |
questions over the weekend over the integrity of the process, and he was | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
not convinced by it. He does not go so far as to say the process has | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
been rigged, but he implies that the weight of the party machine is | :26:20. | :26:21. | |
getting behind Paul Nuttall, who some see as the frontrunner and the | :26:22. | :26:27. | |
one potential unity candidate who can lead Ukip out of the mess they | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
have been in for the past year. So I think Raheem Kassam's implication is | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
that he didn't think he could win against the weight of the party | :26:35. | :26:37. | |
machine and the senior figures who want Paul Nuttall to succeed. That | :26:38. | :26:45. | |
is another reason he decided to pull out. So we are left with four names | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
in the frame, but no final confirmation from Ukip yet as to the | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
short list. The new leader is expected to be announced by the end | :26:56. | :26:56. | |
of the month. We've been joined by one | :26:57. | :26:57. | |
of the four remaining candidates to be Ukip leader, | :26:58. | :26:59. | |
Peter Whittle, who is a member You must be pleased that Raheem | :27:00. | :27:11. | |
Kassam has withdrawn. I am not particularly pleased, because I have | :27:12. | :27:14. | |
known him for a long time and he is an exceptionally talented guy and a | :27:15. | :27:22. | |
very individual guy. And what the leadership contests are showing this | :27:23. | :27:28. | |
time is that this is the contest we should have been having all along. | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
There are people of real merit. I would want as many people as | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
possible to be on show. He is backing you, so you must be pleased. | :27:39. | :27:45. | |
It is kind of him to back me. If you look at the people standing now, | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
they are extremely talented people. That is what people have to know | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
about our party. Do you have a chance of winning against Paul | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
Nuttall and Suzanne Evans? Well, you don't enter these things with a | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
counsel of despair. You have to resist questions like that. The fact | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
is, I love this party. I have been in it for four years. I have been | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
culture spokesman for three. This year, we had a real breakthrough and | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
got two assembly members on to the London Assembly. People said we | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
would never do that in London. But the party has gone through a series | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
of convulsions, losing a leader after 18 days, which is careless to | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
say the least. But Mr Kassam said he would be the Farage-ist candidate. | :28:35. | :28:41. | |
Is that the mantle you are now going to assume? I have always been a | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
supporter of Nigel. There is no revisionism going on there. Nigel is | :28:46. | :28:52. | |
a towering figure. Isn't that why the party is having the problems it | :28:53. | :28:58. | |
is, because he has gone? It was always going to be tough picking a | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
new leader, because he is the most influential politician we have had | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
in two generations. And no one will go back on his legacy. But we are | :29:08. | :29:18. | |
now in a position where we can go onto a brilliant act two. Whatever | :29:19. | :29:25. | |
that might be. It is very simple. Our first goal was the referendum. | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
Our next goal will be to replace Labour as the real opposition in | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
this country. What do you say to that, Debbie Abrahams? I would | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
prefer to know more about your policies. Other than leaving Europe, | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
I am not clear on what Ukip stands for, particularly on the NHS, which | :29:45. | :29:55. | |
Paul Nuttall has slated. No. The fact is with Ukip, everyone knows | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
what we stand for, which is unusual in politics these days. Then it is | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
interesting that there are divisions within your party. Mr Kassam says he | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
is worried about the integrity of the process and the leadership | :30:08. | :30:13. | |
contest. Has he got a point? That is not a picture I recognise. It has | :30:14. | :30:20. | |
all been done very fairly and professionally. So he is wrong about | :30:21. | :30:26. | |
that? It is not a picture I recognise. The whole progress of the | :30:27. | :30:33. | |
leadership campaign has been very smooth this time, because we know | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
what is at stake and we want this party to be a success because there | :30:38. | :30:40. | |
are people, particularly in the Midlands and the north... It is not | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
just a question of being opportunist, but we have a duty to | :30:47. | :30:49. | |
speak for those people. That is why I want us to be the official | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
opposition in years to come. 2020 is the big star for that. | :30:54. | :30:59. | |
You could say now the referendum has happened, there is no need for Ukip | :31:00. | :31:06. | |
whatsoever and Labour could start to claw back some of the support they | :31:07. | :31:13. | |
lost to Ukip. No chance of this. In terms of putting forward your | :31:14. | :31:15. | |
individual vision for the party, do you think Ukip is ready to become | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
the first UK wide political party with a gay leader? Of course, I was | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
the only gay candidate in the mayoral race, for example. Not bad | :31:26. | :31:28. | |
going for a supposedly homophobic party! My fellow Assembly Member is | :31:29. | :31:39. | |
a black eye, we are the most diverse group on the London assembly! And | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
this is despite claims of homophobia, have you experienced | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
that? None at all. All of these things are very, very old charges, | :31:49. | :31:54. | |
really. The fact is, what we have now in Britain are people who are | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
not spoken for, they do not trust the Tories and they are quite right | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
not to trust the Tories, and in fact I think there is no chance, whatever | :32:03. | :32:16. | |
this speech is that Theresa May makes, that they will go over to the | :32:17. | :32:19. | |
Tories, and Labour now look down on them and treat them with contempt. | :32:20. | :32:21. | |
Although there have been defections from Ukip to the Tories since the | :32:22. | :32:23. | |
referendum, as you know. Including Steven Woolfe and certainly thought | :32:24. | :32:26. | |
about it, I know he's not now running in the contest. Are you | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
going to stay to the very end of this competition? We are all in it | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
to win it. So you will not be dropping out? I think the question | :32:35. | :32:41. | |
is, people will see, looking at our hustings, which are happening | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
tomorrow in London and then in Wales, two more next week, they will | :32:45. | :32:47. | |
feed the breadth of vision and talent that there is in this party. | :32:48. | :32:49. | |
Peter Whittle, thank you. How should the UK control | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
immigration once we've left the EU? The official Vote Leave campaign | :32:53. | :32:59. | |
argued for an Australian-style points-based system - | :33:00. | :33:01. | |
but that's been ruled Others have suggested a new regime | :33:02. | :33:03. | |
of work permits. My next guest has produced his own | :33:04. | :33:06. | |
plan, which could include continuing freedom of movement for some | :33:07. | :33:09. | |
categories of worker. Here's Sunder Katwala, | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
director of the non-partisan think Sometimes, you sit down | :33:14. | :33:15. | |
in a restaurant, starving hungry, but they've got nothing that | :33:16. | :33:35. | |
sounds very appetising. When it comes to Brexit, the fixed | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
menu seems very narrow indeed. Most of us would like a good trade | :33:40. | :33:45. | |
deal with Europe for British business, but that always comes | :33:46. | :33:48. | |
served with a liberal helping of free movement, which isn't | :33:49. | :33:51. | |
to everyone's taste. And it seems the only alternative | :33:52. | :33:53. | |
is thin gruel, the hardest, The first rule is, don't | :33:54. | :33:55. | |
be rude to the waiter. But you also need an idea | :33:56. | :34:07. | |
of what you want the kitchen If we can't reach a deal | :34:08. | :34:12. | |
by the time the Article 50 clock runs out in 2019, | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
that will count as a The logical outcome for immigration | :34:18. | :34:20. | |
is that we would then apply the same rules for Europeans | :34:21. | :34:25. | |
as we do for outside the EU. But we could make Europe a much more | :34:26. | :34:29. | |
attractive offer than that, one that gives us the control over | :34:30. | :34:35. | |
immigration that the public want, but is appealing enough to the EU | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
that we can still get A new system could still offer | :34:40. | :34:42. | |
preferential treatment Above a certain skill | :34:43. | :34:53. | |
level, we could keep free People don't want fewer engineers | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
or scientists to come. We also need some low-skilled | :34:58. | :35:08. | |
migration too, to pick fruit But here, the public do | :35:09. | :35:10. | |
want to control the scale So let's have quotas for low-skilled | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
work based on what our economy needs, and offer those places | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
to Europeans first as part Britain would get control over | :35:20. | :35:22. | |
the pace of migration, but it's also an attractive offer | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
to the EU and its workers too, certainly more so than if we don't | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
get any deal at all. And if Europe says "non", | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
we can always try another restaurant and offer a similar | :35:37. | :35:38. | |
trade and migration deal with North American, | :35:39. | :35:41. | |
Australian, Indian But we all know that Europe's got | :35:42. | :35:43. | |
great food, so let's see what the Brussels | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
chefs say first. Penny, Cuba on the Vote Leave side | :35:50. | :36:07. | |
in the referendum campaign. We are going to continue to need skilled | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
and unskilled Labour in the British economy after we finally leave the | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
EU so, in your mind, what a quota for unskilled workers make sense? | :36:16. | :36:21. | |
I'm not going to, as I said earlier, showed the Government's hand in | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
terms of what it is going to be negotiating gone, but what I do | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
think is important is that we get back full control. It was one of the | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
key issues in the referendum campaign, and they tweaked something | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
that quite a lot of politicians didn't figure out which was that | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
unless you can control immigration you cannot govern properly or | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
planned services. Control is one thing, control on immigration, to be | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
able to choose the number and the sorts of migrant workers you would | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
like he is not the same as just bringing down the numbers | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
dramatically, the two are not mutually exclusive, so would you at | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
least consider the idea of a quota for a number of unskilled workers to | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
do some of the jobs that British workers have not come up until now, | :37:10. | :37:21. | |
wanted to do? I think a range of issues will be looked at, the only | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
thing that has been ruled out if the points system approach that | :37:25. | :37:26. | |
Australia have taken. But this is a key issue in terms of the | :37:27. | :37:28. | |
negotiations, and the Government isn't going to reveal its hand. That | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
really was the nub of the referendum result, the message that came | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
through loud and clear was, we want to do something about immigration. I | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
think what we know is the public have lost confidence in how the | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
Government has been handling immigration in this country in the | :37:45. | :37:47. | |
last ten or 15 years, there were not the right preparations for the scale | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
of immigration we have had and we have that promises to cut levels | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
that have not been possible so people want especially some control | :37:55. | :37:55. | |
over the scale and pace of unskilled immigration while at the | :37:56. | :38:11. | |
same time they are positive about the contribution immigration can | :38:12. | :38:13. | |
make to this country if it is better managed and controlled. You talk | :38:14. | :38:16. | |
about quotas, how big would that be for unskilled workers? Our proposal | :38:17. | :38:19. | |
is that we would have skilled free movement at levels people were happy | :38:20. | :38:22. | |
about and would decide on an annual basis, something like the budget, | :38:23. | :38:29. | |
talk to the health service, employers, people worried about the | :38:30. | :38:32. | |
impact on communities, the Home Secretary comes to the house, set | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
the quota and we agree what it is. Under the system Europeans would | :38:38. | :38:39. | |
have access to the low skilled work before other people did if we made | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
the deal with Europe. But it would be just another arbitrary number in | :38:45. | :38:47. | |
the way the Government has set in the last Parliament and this | :38:48. | :38:50. | |
Parliament and number to bring down net migration to tens of thousands, | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
which it has consistently failed to do? Something went wrong with that | :38:56. | :38:58. | |
target, which was not possible to meet, which was that the number came | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
first as a sound bite and people scrambled around for policies to | :39:03. | :39:11. | |
meet it and there were none to meet it while we were in the EU. If we | :39:12. | :39:14. | |
have a process on, what other pressures on migration that create | :39:15. | :39:16. | |
reductions, what are the needs for migration, how do we get the | :39:17. | :39:19. | |
balance, you can set the number according to the feeling on the | :39:20. | :39:22. | |
ground in economic sectors, in local areas, about how to match the | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
pressures and gains of immigration, set the number with worked out | :39:27. | :39:32. | |
policy. What about Labour's policy? Am I right in thinking there is not | :39:33. | :39:37. | |
a policy in terms of setting any numbers on net migration or | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
immigration? What we want to do is have a national conversation about | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
immigration and what that means. We have had a national conversation! We | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
had a general election in 2015 and then a referendum debate. The | :39:52. | :39:54. | |
general election covered a host of things and the only question as I | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
understand in the referendum was, do you want to be in Europe or out? | :39:59. | :40:05. | |
There was a really complex result in terms of our understanding of the | :40:06. | :40:08. | |
result and we need to have a more detailed understanding of what that | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
means. As has been pointed out already, our care service, one in | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
five care workers come from overseas, also our NHS staff, we | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
would collapse without those skilled workers but also the less skilled. | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
So you don't want to control the numbers in any way? I said we need | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
to have a national conversation. But that does not answer the question, | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
do you or don't you want to control the numbers? What we want, we need | :40:35. | :40:44. | |
to recognise what migration does and how it supports and enables our | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
economy, so we know there is an net benefit... People rejected that if | :40:51. | :40:53. | |
you interpret the referendum result in that way? What was the question? | :40:54. | :41:00. | |
They said they wanted control... No, they didn't, they said they wanted | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
to be out of Europe and it is complex to understand why they | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
wanted to leave, even in areas where there is no migration, people voted | :41:09. | :41:11. | |
to leave. There are parts of the country where there were very low | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
levels of immigration and they still voted to leave. I think there were | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
many reasons why people voted to leave, for some it was about | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
sovereignty, all sorts of other issues, but I think we are kidding | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
ourselves if we don't accept that immigration was a major part. Excuse | :41:27. | :41:32. | |
me for bringing this back to the Green paper today, there is an | :41:33. | :41:35. | |
element of the Green paper that looks at this, one thing I am | :41:36. | :41:38. | |
conscious of his opportunities to work overseas that disabled people | :41:39. | :41:45. | |
have, even work experience, quite often they are not able to take them | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
up because our support is not flexible enough to do that, so there | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
is a lot we can do in this space for our own citizens. Do you think | :41:56. | :41:58. | |
voters that were concerned with immigration are wrong? No, I | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
understand, area such as Lincolnshire where there has been a | :42:03. | :42:08. | |
real influx of migrants to support our agricultural industry, pressures | :42:09. | :42:11. | |
have been put on local services. At the same time, those local services | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
have been cut by this Government. Do you think British workers will get | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
out into the field and help the seasonal fruit picking instead? I | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
think we need to look at what, different areas need different | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
things, so for example the Government cut the migrant fund and | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
that needs to be reintroduced, we also need to make sure employment | :42:35. | :42:36. | |
agencies don't undercut when they recruit from abroad, undercutting | :42:37. | :42:44. | |
local Labour. There is evidence in terms of how successfully we can | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
integrate communities into different areas, and that hasn't happened | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
either. Some of the Labour MPs in the North have a very different view | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
on immigration and they do think that something should be done about | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
the numbers, even Keir Starmer in Shadow Cabinet said something has to | :43:01. | :43:02. | |
be done about immigration. Is he wrong? No, he's not, he said | :43:03. | :43:09. | |
something has to be done about immigration... He meant bringing | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
down the numbers. It is about how we make sure the economy is supported | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
by migration but also make sure communities are not put under | :43:19. | :43:21. | |
pressure and there are ways that we can do that which has not happened | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
unfortunately in the last few years. How confident are you that both | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
parties but particularly the Government will take on all consider | :43:29. | :43:31. | |
the sort of scheme you have put forward? I think there is potential | :43:32. | :43:36. | |
pragmatic consensus here, both sides have said something important about | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
control on the pace and scale of immigration, openness to the | :43:42. | :43:44. | |
immigration that allows us to get a good deal, so we think a good deal | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
could converge around this proposal. We have heard a lot about red lines | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
on deals people don't want, if we are going to have a sharper debate | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
we have got to hear ideas about practical proposals that we could | :43:57. | :43:59. | |
put on the table and that would be attractive to a consensus in Britain | :44:00. | :44:11. | |
and that I think is a better deal for Europe than we will get it we | :44:12. | :44:14. | |
have a failure on both sides and no deal at all. Are you working closely | :44:15. | :44:16. | |
with ministers? We will speak to ministers on all sides, there are | :44:17. | :44:18. | |
pragmatic voices will remain that will have to come up with a real | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
policy that works for the 52% and the 48%. When do you think the Prime | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
Minister will be able to deliver on her pledge for net migration in the | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
tens of thousands? Ultimately I think that will happen after we | :44:32. | :44:38. | |
leave the EU. So in 2019? We will have to see what system is put in | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
place and precisely what I think needs to happen is the focus on what | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
the economy needs, what skills we need, how many people we need, and | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
that will determine the numbers, that it will... But it will be after | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
the EU that we will get back for control? Thank you. | :44:56. | :44:58. | |
Now let's have a look at what else is coming up this week. | :44:59. | :45:01. | |
The Shadow Brexit Secretary Keir Starmer is hoping to ask | :45:02. | :45:03. | |
an urgent question in the Commons this afternoon about | :45:04. | :45:05. | |
The Japanese car giant announced last Thursday that they would build | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
two new models at their Sunderland factory after receiving "assurances" | :45:10. | :45:11. | |
Labour MP Keith Vaz could have his entry onto the Justice Committee | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
The Conservative MP Andrew Bridgen will try and trigger a Commons vote | :45:16. | :45:23. | |
Keith Vaz resigned as chairman of the Home Affairs Committee last | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
month after newspaper allegations that he had paid | :45:28. | :45:29. | |
On Wednesday, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn will face | :45:30. | :45:35. | |
As always, we'll broadcast the session in full here | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
Later that day, around 70 Labour MPs will launch a centre-left group | :45:40. | :45:44. | |
The MPs behind it say their aim is to help the party produce | :45:45. | :45:53. | |
On Thursday, the Bank of England Governor Mark Carney | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
will deliver the quarterly inflation report. | :45:58. | :45:58. | |
That's the Bank's verdict on how the British economy is performing. | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
It's thought that Mark Carney could use the opportunity to end | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
speculation about whether he will continue in the job | :46:07. | :46:08. | |
Joining me from outside on College Green are the deputy | :46:09. | :46:15. | |
political editor Jason Groves and Martha Gill, who writes | :46:16. | :46:17. | |
Jason Groves, what do you think Mark Carney will do? I think he will | :46:18. | :46:31. | |
stay. He is telling friends he wants to stay and although we understand | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
that he has personal reasons for possibly wanting to return to | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
Canada, he is in a job that pays him a lot of money and he says he wants | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
to see Brexit through. In many ways, he is a lucky man to be able to make | :46:45. | :46:50. | |
his own decision. There are quite a few in government who would be happy | :46:51. | :46:54. | |
to see the back of him. But at this moment, there is a feeling that it | :46:55. | :46:57. | |
might spook the markets for him to go. I think he will stay. Martha, | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
how much fuss will there be from the Tory MPs who have felt Mark Carney | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
overstepped the mark in the EU referendum? Will they make a fuss if | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
he stays? Probably, but if he goes, they will make even more fuss. They | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
will use it as an opportunity to jump on these accusations that he | :47:17. | :47:24. | |
torched the economy down and made incorrect calls before Brexit. If he | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
went, it would certainly cause uncertainty in the markets, adding | :47:29. | :47:34. | |
to the stress caused by Brexit. Let's talk about Nissan and those | :47:35. | :47:40. | |
assurances. A letter was enough to persuade Nissan to continue | :47:41. | :47:43. | |
investing in the north-east. What was promised, do you think? We got a | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
good outline of what was promised from Greg Clark yesterday. There | :47:49. | :47:51. | |
were three areas where the government offered the kind of | :47:52. | :47:53. | |
grants you might expect a government to offer any big business, | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
investing, training and research. Then there was this extra area where | :47:59. | :48:05. | |
the real political debate is now, in that he has offered them an | :48:06. | :48:09. | |
assurance that they can continue trading without tariffs and without | :48:10. | :48:11. | |
bureaucratic impediments. Nobody quite knows what that means. We | :48:12. | :48:17. | |
don't know who is applies to. Interestingly, the letter doesn't | :48:18. | :48:20. | |
say what happens if the government can't deliver that. At the moment, | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
they can't guarantee it. Negotiations with Brussels haven't | :48:25. | :48:27. | |
even started, and we are already making promises about the outcome. | :48:28. | :48:33. | |
Presumably, if that cannot be upheld, the idea of no tariffs being | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
put on car-makers like Nissan, there would have to be compensation which | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
would be taxpayer funded. That is the key question. That is what I | :48:44. | :48:46. | |
suspect Keir Starmer, the shadow Brexit secretary, will be grilling | :48:47. | :48:54. | |
Greg Clark on today. I suspect he will also be interested in whether | :48:55. | :48:58. | |
there are sector by sector deals, because Greg Clark was only talking | :48:59. | :49:05. | |
about the car industry yesterday. It would be extraordinary for the | :49:06. | :49:07. | |
government to monitor deals sector by sector. I suspect Keir Starmer | :49:08. | :49:13. | |
will want to find out whether all of Britain's other key industries will | :49:14. | :49:16. | |
get the same kind of deals that the car industry seems to be getting. We | :49:17. | :49:20. | |
will be listening to Business Secretary Greg Clark when he talks | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
about these things. Let's move onto Keith Vaz, the Labour MP currently | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
under investigation. This issue has been raised by Andrew Bridge, the | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
Conservative MP, because Keith Vaz wants to take his place on the | :49:34. | :49:36. | |
Justice committee. Is he going to get anywhere with his opposition? | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
Well, Andrew tells me he has secured a vote in the Commons tonight. We | :49:43. | :49:45. | |
will have to see what the numbers are. It is an unusual situation. For | :49:46. | :49:52. | |
a lot of members of the public, they will be surprised that a man in | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
Keith Vaz's position is going for a seat on the Justice committee at | :49:57. | :49:58. | |
this time when he has all this hanging over him. He has had to step | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
down from the home affairs committee. I suspect if he had been | :50:03. | :50:05. | |
on the Justice committee, he would have had to step back from that. It | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
is extraordinary that he is going for this. My gut feeling is that he | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
will get on. But we will have to wait and see. Martha Gill, what do | :50:14. | :50:22. | |
you think will happen? I agree. These things tend to go through | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
smoothly. It would be unusual for it to be blocked at this stage, but it | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
is also unusual for somebody involved in ongoing investigations | :50:32. | :50:37. | |
like Keith Vaz to get onto such a prestigious select committee. We | :50:38. | :50:39. | |
will see. Thank you both very much. As we've just been discussing, | :50:40. | :50:44. | |
Labour have secured what's known as an "urgent question" in the House | :50:45. | :50:47. | |
of Commons this afternoon to discuss the detail | :50:48. | :50:49. | |
of assurances given to Nissan by the Business Secretary Greg | :50:50. | :50:52. | |
Clark, which led to the car manufacturer committing to continue | :50:53. | :50:54. | |
production of its cars It's of no interest for there | :50:55. | :50:56. | |
to be tariff barriers to the Continent and vice versa, | :50:57. | :51:03. | |
so I said that our objective would be to ensure that we have | :51:04. | :51:07. | |
continued access to the markets without tariffs and without | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
bureaucratic impediments. And that is how we will approach | :51:12. | :51:13. | |
those negotiations. Should he just publish the letter? I | :51:14. | :51:32. | |
don't think so, but he has been open about the discussions he has had | :51:33. | :51:37. | |
with Nissan and I am sure he will say more in the meeting later today. | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
This is quite normal, and it would be weird if a business didn't use | :51:43. | :51:51. | |
Brexit as a way of furthering its own aims. Unsuccessfully in the case | :51:52. | :51:58. | |
of Nissan. Other car-makers will be saying, are we going to get the same | :51:59. | :52:07. | |
deal? We want to reassure any company that is periodically | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
reviewing staying in the UK or relocating that it is best investing | :52:13. | :52:18. | |
here. Of course, but what has been dangled in front of Nissan to make | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
them stay? Reports have said they were considering leaving, so what | :52:24. | :52:26. | |
did the government promise and will the taxpayer have to pay? This is | :52:27. | :52:32. | |
really about ensuring that business has confidence in this government. | :52:33. | :52:41. | |
Is this a good idea, to do sector by sector deals, where you could have | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
free trade agreements for the car industry, for example, to ensure | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
that companies like Nissan stay put? We want to see the detail of that. | :52:52. | :52:57. | |
But is it a good idea? I am not sure, because I have not seen the | :52:58. | :53:04. | |
detail. By publishing the letter, we get an opportunity to analyse | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
whether it was a good idea or not. Well, he has said quite a lot. He | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
said there would not be tariffs placed on goods. Is that an | :53:13. | :53:20. | |
assurance enough for you? There was an interview last night from the | :53:21. | :53:25. | |
boss of Nissan which was implying something slightly different. Let's | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
take Greg Clark at his word that there would not be any tariffs that | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
would be put on car manufacturers when exporting. Would that be a good | :53:34. | :53:40. | |
deal? Obviously, we want to make sure that companies in the UK can | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
trade as freely as possible with Europe. But we need to see the | :53:46. | :53:53. | |
detail. If Nissan are now getting a sweetener through the taxpayer, why | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
couldn't we provide it to another business? This sweetener might be | :53:58. | :54:04. | |
that in the end, if we can't keep that assurance of error free trade, | :54:05. | :54:10. | |
we will compensate you. Would that be all right for the government said | :54:11. | :54:15. | |
taxpayers will fund compensation if we cannot keep our promise of tariff | :54:16. | :54:21. | |
free trade? Greg Clark has been quite straightforward in his | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
interview yesterday. We don't know about that. Well, he did say there | :54:27. | :54:32. | |
was not money dangled in order to secure them remaining in the UK. As | :54:33. | :54:40. | |
you would expect from someone who supported the Leave camp, I think | :54:41. | :54:46. | |
common sense will prevail. I think businesses in Europe will want to | :54:47. | :54:49. | |
trade with us as we do with them. And some of the obstacles that are | :54:50. | :54:54. | |
being floated will not come to pass. Let's see what happens. | :54:55. | :54:56. | |
So, ever wanted to keep track of how your MP has been | :54:57. | :54:59. | |
Whether they toe the party line, or are a serial rebel? | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
It's all information that's recorded, but now, thanks | :55:04. | :55:04. | |
to a new app launched by Parliament called Commons Vote, | :55:05. | :55:07. | |
you can get hold of it almost immediately | :55:08. | :55:09. | |
Ellie has been looking at how it all works. | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
It's what happens when the Speaker needs MPs | :55:15. | :55:17. | |
And this bell rings to let everyone know. | :55:18. | :55:25. | |
If I wanted to vote against whatever was being proposed, I would get up | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
out of the chamber and head to the no lobby, which is that way. | :55:31. | :55:36. | |
If I wanted to vote in favour, I'd go that way to the ayes. | :55:37. | :55:42. | |
Once a vote or division is called, MPs have eight minutes | :55:43. | :55:45. | |
to get from the chamber or wherever they are. | :55:46. | :55:49. | |
Then I would get to the desks here and work out which queue | :55:50. | :55:52. | |
But things recently have changed, so what's different? | :55:53. | :56:06. | |
Until earlier this year, members' names were recorded | :56:07. | :56:08. | |
on pen and paper and when they came through, | :56:09. | :56:10. | |
a clerk recorded their name with a marker pen. | :56:11. | :56:13. | |
Now we've changed to a system of recording names by tablet device, | :56:14. | :56:16. | |
we have the data in a digital format. | :56:17. | :56:19. | |
So it's quite a traditional process, with a modern twist. | :56:20. | :56:22. | |
Everything else has stayed the same as for many decades. | :56:23. | :56:25. | |
Members still walk through the lobbies, | :56:26. | :56:27. | |
but the way we record votes has changed. | :56:28. | :56:30. | |
And that's useful for the clever technical people, who've come up | :56:31. | :56:33. | |
So we have a nice copy of Hansard, how it was traditionally recorded. | :56:34. | :56:47. | |
We've got a list of all the votes and we can scroll through them, | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
have a look at what has gone on in the past. | :56:54. | :56:55. | |
And we can see that there were 195 ayes and 280 noes. | :56:56. | :56:58. | |
If you choose the noes, you can get a list of all those | :56:59. | :57:01. | |
We can also look at all the members, so you can scroll through | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
or search for their name, and we can choose a member. | :57:07. | :57:08. | |
If we choose Luciana Berger, we can see how she has voted | :57:09. | :57:11. | |
in every division, and you get the count of the division as well, | :57:12. | :57:14. | |
so you can quickly see what side she was on. | :57:15. | :57:17. | |
Everything that goes on in parliament will continue | :57:18. | :57:19. | |
It just means you can get the information on the move. | :57:20. | :57:23. | |
I can see how that will help us journalists. Will you get more | :57:24. | :57:35. | |
hassle from your constituency and voters if they think you haven't | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
voted the way you should? I think anything that helps voters to know | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
what is going on and about the process is a good thing. It would | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
just mean they get it a little quicker than they have in the past. | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
Is this part of the attempt at modernisation processes in the | :57:53. | :57:57. | |
Commons? About time. I think it will be great. Constituents want to know | :57:58. | :58:00. | |
the information. I can get it quicker. I like the idea of them | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
wandering around with their apps. There's just time before we go | :58:06. | :58:08. | |
to find out the answer to our quiz. B) Ed Balls' mad | :58:09. | :58:12. | |
professor on Strictly? C) The wails of former | :58:13. | :58:20. | |
Prime Minister Viscount Goderich - known as the "Blubberer" | :58:21. | :58:23. | |
for his tendency to cry while in office, or d) The feline | :58:24. | :58:25. | |
ghost of former chief mouser, So Debbie and Penny, | :58:26. | :58:28. | |
what's the correct answer? I am going to go for the cigar | :58:29. | :58:37. | |
smoker. I will go for the cigar smoke as well. You are both right, | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
although I think we may have shown the picture too early! It is the | :58:43. | :58:45. | |
cigar smoke, not Ed Balls. Thanks, Penny, Debbie | :58:46. | :58:46. | |
and all my guests. The One O'Clock News is starting | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
over on BBC One now. I'll be here at noon tomorrow | :58:52. | :58:54. | |
with all the big political to commemorate the Africans | :58:55. | :59:06. | |
who were here. | :59:07. | :59:09. |