31/10/2016 Daily Politics


31/10/2016

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Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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The Government comes under fire over its funding

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for the NHS in England, as MPs say the Prime Minister's

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claim that it's getting a ?10 billion boost is "false".

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The race to replace Nigel Farage heats up as nominations

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One candidate pulls out at the last minute and accuses the top

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of the party of treating the contest "like a coronation".

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Work and Pensions Secretary Damian Green promises personalised support

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to help more people move from benefits into work.

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We'll look at the Government's plans for welfare reform.

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And we've exclusive behind-the-scenes access

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to the House of Commons voting lobby, where old traditions

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are being updated with digital technology.

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All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole

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of the programme today, the Minister for Disabled People,

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And, soon, the Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary, Debbie Abrahams.

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Let's start with the warning today from the Conservative chair

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of the Health Select Committee that the NHS in England

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is under enormous pressure and needs more more money.

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Sarah Wollaston also says that Government claims that the NHS

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in England is due to receive an extra ?10 billion

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It gives a false impression that the NHS is awash with cash,

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and in fact if you look at the way that figure is reached,

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it's by adding another year to the Spending Review and also

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by changing pots of money from one part of the health budget

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to another, so for example taking money out of public health

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And so it can give an impression that more is given when in fact

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the real figure is very considerably lower.

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Sarah Wallerstein there. The real figure, she says, is 4.5 billion, so

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less than half. Is she right, or the Government? I have a great deal of

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respect for Sarah and she has said good things about the need to get

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more money into prevention and primary care, but I think she is

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wrong on the numbers. We have funded the NHS' own plan, they asked us, we

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asked them how much they needed, they said in Italy 8 billion, that

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rose to ten and we have given them that money. But hang on, the money

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is going to NHS in England, which is, albeit important, one part of

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the NHS. What Sarah Wollaston was saying is that other parts of the

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NHS, such as social care, is losing money, money taken from the budget

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to boost another part, so the NHS as a whole is not getting a ?10 billion

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boost. Two points, first of all we have funded the NHS' own plan, the

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second thing is, with regard to the other services such as social care

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that local Government funds, local Government reserves have doubled

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since 2010, there are 22.5 billion currently sat in local Government

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reserve accounts. Every local Government person on this programme

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has said they have been cut to the bone and social care has been

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starved over a longer period of time then just boosting reserves

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recently. Don't get me wrong, there are challenges there but money is

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going into those areas, 5.3 billion in the better care fund and we have

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enabled local governments to raise its own money,

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we have relaxed the rules around how much council tax can be raised

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locally, provided it is spent on social care. But money is not the

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only issue here, the way we are going to get all the money that is

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available in the system to work best is if we enable people at local

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level to put that money into prevention and early services. Not

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piling it on to acute care. I take that point, but she is making a

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serious accusation that the Government has misled the public,

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have they? Know. So she is wrong? Absolutely. She says you only arrive

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at the budget of ?10 billion in terms of a boost over five years by

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shifting money from public health budget and health education and

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training, and also including an extra year in the calculation, so

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2015-2015 rather than just the term of this Parliament. That is

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misleading, it is slight of hand? Know, this is funding the NHS' own

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plan. There are other issues she raises about particular pressures

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that health care faces, inflation and so forth on drug costs and

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things like that, but this is about as supplying the money the NHS said

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it needed. We were the only political party to make that

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commitment at the general election and since then... That has been

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contested, saying it is aimed misinterpretation by the

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Conservative Government. East so you are saying money has not shifted

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from any other budget and including the extra year is not misleading? I

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do not follow what Sarah says when she says we are claiming that the

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system is awash with cash. We have never claimed that, we note that

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every year there are increasing pressures, an older population being

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just one of them, so we know that there are serious challenges out

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there but we have made this a priority, we have said to the NHS,

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give us your plan, tell us what you need and we will meet that. In

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addition to that, we have enabled local Government, on top of the

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better care fund, which is going into social care, we have enabled it

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to raise its own money. Well, she said she will have conversations

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with Philip Hammond, the Treasury, about this, so that should be

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interesting. Thank you. It's Halloween, so what ghostly

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presence is supposed to be Is it a) Winston

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Churchill's cigar smoke? B) The apparition of Ed Balls' mad

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professor on Strictly? C) The wails of former

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Prime Minister Viscount Goderich, known as 'the blubberer' for his

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tendency to cry while in office. Or, d) the feline ghost of former

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chief mouser Humphrey the cat. At the end of the show Penny

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and Debbie, who has now arrived, Welfare reform was one

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of the centrepieces of David Cameron's programme

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when the Conservatives first came Today the Government has announced

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new plans to help more disabled people into employment,

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which they say will provide a more "targeted and personalised" way

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to help more people find jobs. But with pressure on Ministers

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to make work pay and reduce welfare Damian Green said earlier this month

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that his vision was 'a welfare state fit for the world of work

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in the 21st century'. So what issues are on the Work

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and Pensions Secretary's desk? Work capability assessments,

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the scheme that assesses claimants of disability benefits,

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are set for an overhaul as part Statutory sick pay and GP fit notes

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are also to be reviewed as part of an effort to help disabled people

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back into work. But the Government still faces

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criticism for failures by Concentrix, a private company

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contracted to tackle benefit fraud that has been accused of incorrectly

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withdrawing tax credits The flagship universal credit scheme

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is up and running but is not forecast to be fully

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delivered until 2022 - 11 years after it

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was first announced. The Conservative MP Heidi Allen has

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called for cuts to work incentives in the scheme made

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by George Osborne to be reversed. And there is increased scrutiny

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over the triple lock - the Government's pledge

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that the state pension will always rise by wages, prices or 2.5%,

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whichever is higher. Former Work and Pensions Secretary

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Iain Duncan Smith told the Sunday Politics yesterday

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that it was time to scrap the pledge and spend

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the money elsewhere. Well, the Work and Pensions

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Secretary, Damian Green, was talking earlier this morning

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about those new plans to help more Well, the system isn't working well

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enough for large numbers of people. We've got huge numbers of people,

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unprecedentedly high numbers of people, in work,

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about 80%, but just under 50% And what I want to do is to tap

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into the huge amount of talent there is there,

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and also most of those people do want to work, and so the system

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needs to change so that We aspire to be a Government that

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works for everyone and that includes all those people who want to work

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but now can't, and that requires changes not just in Jobcentre Plus,

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the things I'm directly responsible for, but also in the health service

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and in the attitude of employers. Damian Green there. The Government

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is reviewing the work capability assessment, by giving that are you

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admitting it is not currently fit for purpose? I think it could be

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improved dramatically both in terms of the process, currently we don't

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make good use of all of the bits of information different parts of

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Government has, we require people to feel into many forms and give the

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State information, the same information, over and again, so

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there is a lot that can still be done with the process. We have

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obviously made some announcements on changing that, for example not

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requiring people with degenerative conditions to go through retests,

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but we think there are further more fundamental reforms that are

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required, particularly splitting out the finance from any conditionality

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that we place on an individual. Why has it taken so long? I am conscious

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that I have been in the Department for 18 weeks and my in tray looks

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very different to the one Iain Duncan Smith had to tackle when he

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took over the department, so I think we are building on the reforms that

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he has done. But it is a slow process. I think there were some

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other things that were very pressing that he wanted to tackle. But we are

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now in a position because of work done and other reforms that the work

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capability assessment has undergone to take this fundamental look and I

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think it is long overdue, but very important that we start the

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consultation. And something that perhaps should have been done by

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Iain Duncan Smith, having got as far as he did with the reforms? We are

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continuing a programme of work that he set out. The reason this is so

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important is that currently you have people with a health condition, or

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who have a disability, who are parked with no support, so

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ironically those that need the most help don't get it because we have

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money attached to the conditions that we place on someone. That needs

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to be reformed. We will talk about some of the incentives for people

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with chronic illnesses or long-term conditions in a moment, but do you

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welcome the fact that this review is happening, even if you think it is

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long overdue, is it the right review? As you have just said,

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actions speak louder than words. We have known for a number of years

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that the work capability assessment is not working, it dehumanises

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people, there is a piece of research at last year that shows it

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exacerbates mental health conditions, increasing suicides.

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There are all sorts of issues associated with not just the work

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capability assessment but other aspects of it. Do you accept that

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assessment that that is what it has done to people either disabled and

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claiming benefit or other people with long-term conditions who have

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to go through that work assessment, that it has caused them to become

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more ill or in some places commit suicide? I think that leaving aside

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the fundamental reforms we want to do to the policy, the delivery of

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that policy is absolutely critical. I think even if you don't have

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anxiety or depression or anything that could be exacerbated by such a

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process, if you are having to go through an enormous amount of

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bureaucracy and an unnecessary number of assessments, that is not

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going to do anyone any good at all, so I think it is the process as well

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as what we are trying to get out of that. So you admit it has not helped

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in many people's cases in terms of trying to deal with what are

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probably difficult things? The Government's statement include

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references to helping people with long-term conditions but we have

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heard to date on the BBC that people with long-term conditions such as

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rheumatoid arthritis or Parkinson's, there is a of threat or incentive

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hanging over those people that they are going to be reassessed despite

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the fact that they have long-term conditions which would make it

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difficult to go back to work, do you accept that? Part of the reason we

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are doing the paper jointly with health is because we realise it is

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not just employment support interventions that need to be

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improved, it is also about people who need access to pain management,

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physiotherapy, a whole raft of interventions, mental health support

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being a particularly poignant one. That is why we are producing this

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paper today, because we know that, to date, the systems have not worked

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to assist those people. But let me be very clear that those people who

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are not able to work will not be required to work. That will come as

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some comfort to people, of course the definition of who is not able to

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work will still be up for interpretation. Can I just put to

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you first of all, you said yesterday the Government's approach was

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ideological grip on with the sole purpose of targeting the most

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vulnerable in society, what is your evidence for that? First of all let

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me comment on what Penny has just said. We are in the context of an

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NHS financial crisis. Not just a social care

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crisis, we are talking about support for disabled people, some basic

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support about helping them get out of bed in the morning. Where on

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earth is that going to come from? This is completely pie in the sky,

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we have employment support cuts for disabled people by more than a

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third. Again, how is this about helping get disabled people into

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work? It is all very well, as I said, they are fine words but

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actions speak louder. So you will wait to see what the actions are,

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but come back to the question, ideological driven with the purpose

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of targeting the most vulnerable in society, do you stand by that

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claimed that that is what the Government is doing? If we look at

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what has happened over the last few years, nearly ?30 billion of cuts to

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7 million people, another 1500 per year for people on EFA WRAG, these

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are the most vulnerable people in society and we should not target

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them. There is no evidence in terms of the approach the Government is

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taking, this is about getting people off loaded, purely and simply. So

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you are targeting the most vulnerable because the cuts show

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that? I think that is very wrong and there is... You are right, it is

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wrong! There is a mood to portray not just Government but also those

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people providing those services in our job centres as people that don't

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care, and this issue should be an issue... People have come to me and

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said people are being targeted. Don't talk over each other, finish

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your sentence. I had a constituent who worked in a job centre for 20

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years and came to me and said claimants are being targeted, there

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are targets about getting people off-loaded, sanctions through the

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work capability assessment. If you have targets driven by

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profit, surely you will get a situation where people are treated

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as if they are in a sausage factory? It used to be the case that

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Jobcentre staff was rewarded depending on how they were

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performing. This was not a good way to monitor things. What we should be

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measuring and what the thrust of the green paper is and the changes we

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have made over the last 18 weeks is measuring individuals' distance

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travelled. There will be some people whose goals are to get back into

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full-time work. There will be some whose goal is meaningful activity,

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and some will not be able to do any of that. We have to look at what

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support that individual needs. By companies that the government has

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employed to do these jobs have not had a good track record in dealing

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with people on a human basis so far, if you believe all the stories. And

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on that, Concentrix, the company contacted by the government to

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tackle tax credit fraud which was accused of incorrectly withdrawing

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benefits from hundreds of families, do you accept that ministers bear

:18:32.:18:36.

responsibility for this by incentivising payment by results?

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Well, the issues we have with tax credits are serious. And they are

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unacceptable. I have had them in my own constituency. But we need to

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ensure that whether it is in a contract, whether we performance

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manage our staff, the right incentives are there. But those were

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the wrong incentives. If you incentivised by payment by results,

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you are going to get the sort of very sad stories that we hear is as

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a result of going through the system. In the case of the tax

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credits the problem is some of the IT systems they have been using. We

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had a case the other day of someone who was accused of living in a shop,

:19:26.:19:32.

because they were living above a shop. Does the government over those

:19:33.:19:39.

people an apology? Absolutely. We have to accept that the policy is

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one thing and even if we have the perfect policy, we have to ensure

:19:44.:19:48.

that it is delivered in an excellent way. With regard to the Department

:19:49.:19:59.

for Work and Pensions, our staff are subject matter experts with these

:20:00.:20:04.

issues. They are not medical professionals. That is nonsense. We

:20:05.:20:14.

have expert disability advisers. You have one specialist disability

:20:15.:20:18.

adviser for every 600 people. How can you say you are committed? That

:20:19.:20:24.

is why we are bringing out another 300. On the basis that Penny

:20:25.:20:28.

Mordaunt says ministers should apologise for the tax credit

:20:29.:20:31.

debacle, which meant hundreds of families had their tax credits

:20:32.:20:35.

stopped, do you welcome that apology? I do. The statement of last

:20:36.:20:43.

week was a very measured one. And now, when we look at what will be in

:20:44.:20:49.

the contracts in future for work capability assessments, do you

:20:50.:20:52.

accept Penny Mordaunt's word that it would be different and that it will

:20:53.:20:55.

not be incentivising payment by results? Performance management is

:20:56.:21:00.

key. Governments of all colours have not been good around contracting,

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both in terms of the design and in terms of performance managing it. We

:21:05.:21:10.

all need to get better. But I would like to know what we are going to do

:21:11.:21:14.

about access to work. With 1.3 million disabled people who want to

:21:15.:21:20.

work and only 35,000 able to get access to work to help them get back

:21:21.:21:27.

to work, the figures don't match. I am interested in the specifics

:21:28.:21:32.

around that. What about the comment Iain Duncan Smith made at the

:21:33.:21:36.

weekend. More than half of the work and pensions budget goes on

:21:37.:21:42.

benefits. He suggested it might be time to do away with the triple

:21:43.:21:47.

lock. Do you agree? I don't. As a chairman of the all party group on

:21:48.:21:50.

ageing, I would point out that the older you are, your cost of living

:21:51.:21:58.

goes up. Is it affordable? I think it is and I think it is important

:21:59.:22:01.

that we protect those benefits for pensioners. Do you agree?

:22:02.:22:09.

Absolutely. What about the welfare cap on how much the government

:22:10.:22:13.

spends overall on social security benefits? It is popular but it has

:22:14.:22:17.

been breached every year since it has been brought in. Is there any

:22:18.:22:22.

point continuing with it? It is important that we have welfare

:22:23.:22:28.

spending under control. But we also need to ensure that the reach of our

:22:29.:22:39.

programmes is as they need to be. Our green paper has not been

:22:40.:22:43.

published yet, both but there will be a focus on that. We have to

:22:44.:22:46.

ensure that not only the reach, but the quality of these programmes is

:22:47.:22:52.

there. The cuts that George Osborne introduced to work incentives,

:22:53.:22:58.

should they be reversed as Heidi Allen said? There are no plans to do

:22:59.:23:02.

that. What I would take to Heidi and others who are concerned about that

:23:03.:23:07.

is to look at the whole package for those individuals in terms of the

:23:08.:23:14.

living wage and their personal tax contributions. According to the

:23:15.:23:18.

Resolution Foundation, a single parent with a child under four

:23:19.:23:22.

working full-time on the minimum wage would receive ?3600 less. How

:23:23.:23:26.

does that help the families who are just managing, the very people

:23:27.:23:31.

Theresa May says she wants to help? I met that organisation last week

:23:32.:23:34.

and I would say that you have to look of a package of support we are

:23:35.:23:37.

giving people in the round, which includes those other things. This is

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outrageous. Universal credit was meant to be introduced to make work

:23:43.:23:46.

pay and we supported it on that basis. On average, 2.5 million

:23:47.:23:52.

families will be over ?2000 a year worse off. We now have a situation

:23:53.:23:55.

where there are more families who are in work living in poverty than

:23:56.:23:59.

there are workless families. This is a travesty and it has happened under

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this government's what. Two thirds of the 4 million children living in

:24:05.:24:07.

poverty are from working families. We must reverse these cuts if we are

:24:08.:24:10.

to have a meaningful impact. After the false start

:24:11.:24:17.

earlier this autumn, when Diane James lasted just 18 days

:24:18.:24:19.

in the job, Ukip's search Our political correspondent

:24:20.:24:22.

Alex Forsyth is keeping a close eye It seems that the nominees are

:24:23.:24:37.

dropping like fliess yeah. When this contest was announced, which was

:24:38.:24:39.

itself a surprise after Diane James did just 18 days in the job, there

:24:40.:24:43.

was a flurry of people who thought they would throw their hat in the

:24:44.:24:48.

ring for the next Ukip leader role. But as of today, when nominations

:24:49.:24:51.

have closed, we know of only four left in the running. This morning,

:24:52.:24:55.

the latest candidate to dropout was Raheem Kassam. He is a former aide

:24:56.:24:59.

to Nigel Farage, one of the first to declare that he would stand for the

:25:00.:25:03.

leadership this time. He only did his formal launch on Friday, a

:25:04.:25:07.

couple of days ago. Over the weekend in the papers, a he got a lot of

:25:08.:25:12.

coverage, so it came as a surprise when he decided to withdraw this

:25:13.:25:17.

morning. He said in his statement that he thought the path to victory

:25:18.:25:21.

was too narrow. Read into that that he thinks senior figures in the

:25:22.:25:24.

party are getting behind Paul Nuttall and so there was little

:25:25.:25:27.

chance of him winning. He also cited some anger at the media, saying

:25:28.:25:31.

journalists have turned up at his parents' home, and also fundraising.

:25:32.:25:36.

It was thought that the multimillionaire backer Arron Banks

:25:37.:25:39.

was behind Raheem Kassam, but he said in a statement this morning

:25:40.:25:42.

that they only had enough money to run a digital campaign based on

:25:43.:25:46.

Westminster. He didn't think that would be effective, so that was part

:25:47.:25:50.

of the reason he pulled out. I have spoken to Mr Kassam and he said he

:25:51.:25:53.

did still have the support of Arron Banks, but he did not want to take a

:25:54.:25:57.

lot of donations to come second, so he stood down. We will get the final

:25:58.:26:01.

list of candidates this afternoon and the hustings start tomorrow. Did

:26:02.:26:07.

he also imply that the system had been rigged? He said he had asked

:26:08.:26:10.

questions over the weekend over the integrity of the process, and he was

:26:11.:26:14.

not convinced by it. He does not go so far as to say the process has

:26:15.:26:19.

been rigged, but he implies that the weight of the party machine is

:26:20.:26:21.

getting behind Paul Nuttall, who some see as the frontrunner and the

:26:22.:26:27.

one potential unity candidate who can lead Ukip out of the mess they

:26:28.:26:30.

have been in for the past year. So I think Raheem Kassam's implication is

:26:31.:26:34.

that he didn't think he could win against the weight of the party

:26:35.:26:37.

machine and the senior figures who want Paul Nuttall to succeed. That

:26:38.:26:45.

is another reason he decided to pull out. So we are left with four names

:26:46.:26:49.

in the frame, but no final confirmation from Ukip yet as to the

:26:50.:26:55.

short list. The new leader is expected to be announced by the end

:26:56.:26:56.

of the month. We've been joined by one

:26:57.:26:57.

of the four remaining candidates to be Ukip leader,

:26:58.:26:59.

Peter Whittle, who is a member You must be pleased that Raheem

:27:00.:27:11.

Kassam has withdrawn. I am not particularly pleased, because I have

:27:12.:27:14.

known him for a long time and he is an exceptionally talented guy and a

:27:15.:27:22.

very individual guy. And what the leadership contests are showing this

:27:23.:27:28.

time is that this is the contest we should have been having all along.

:27:29.:27:34.

There are people of real merit. I would want as many people as

:27:35.:27:38.

possible to be on show. He is backing you, so you must be pleased.

:27:39.:27:45.

It is kind of him to back me. If you look at the people standing now,

:27:46.:27:51.

they are extremely talented people. That is what people have to know

:27:52.:27:56.

about our party. Do you have a chance of winning against Paul

:27:57.:27:59.

Nuttall and Suzanne Evans? Well, you don't enter these things with a

:28:00.:28:04.

counsel of despair. You have to resist questions like that. The fact

:28:05.:28:10.

is, I love this party. I have been in it for four years. I have been

:28:11.:28:15.

culture spokesman for three. This year, we had a real breakthrough and

:28:16.:28:20.

got two assembly members on to the London Assembly. People said we

:28:21.:28:25.

would never do that in London. But the party has gone through a series

:28:26.:28:29.

of convulsions, losing a leader after 18 days, which is careless to

:28:30.:28:34.

say the least. But Mr Kassam said he would be the Farage-ist candidate.

:28:35.:28:41.

Is that the mantle you are now going to assume? I have always been a

:28:42.:28:45.

supporter of Nigel. There is no revisionism going on there. Nigel is

:28:46.:28:52.

a towering figure. Isn't that why the party is having the problems it

:28:53.:28:58.

is, because he has gone? It was always going to be tough picking a

:28:59.:29:03.

new leader, because he is the most influential politician we have had

:29:04.:29:07.

in two generations. And no one will go back on his legacy. But we are

:29:08.:29:18.

now in a position where we can go onto a brilliant act two. Whatever

:29:19.:29:25.

that might be. It is very simple. Our first goal was the referendum.

:29:26.:29:29.

Our next goal will be to replace Labour as the real opposition in

:29:30.:29:33.

this country. What do you say to that, Debbie Abrahams? I would

:29:34.:29:39.

prefer to know more about your policies. Other than leaving Europe,

:29:40.:29:44.

I am not clear on what Ukip stands for, particularly on the NHS, which

:29:45.:29:55.

Paul Nuttall has slated. No. The fact is with Ukip, everyone knows

:29:56.:29:59.

what we stand for, which is unusual in politics these days. Then it is

:30:00.:30:03.

interesting that there are divisions within your party. Mr Kassam says he

:30:04.:30:07.

is worried about the integrity of the process and the leadership

:30:08.:30:13.

contest. Has he got a point? That is not a picture I recognise. It has

:30:14.:30:20.

all been done very fairly and professionally. So he is wrong about

:30:21.:30:26.

that? It is not a picture I recognise. The whole progress of the

:30:27.:30:33.

leadership campaign has been very smooth this time, because we know

:30:34.:30:37.

what is at stake and we want this party to be a success because there

:30:38.:30:40.

are people, particularly in the Midlands and the north... It is not

:30:41.:30:46.

just a question of being opportunist, but we have a duty to

:30:47.:30:49.

speak for those people. That is why I want us to be the official

:30:50.:30:53.

opposition in years to come. 2020 is the big star for that.

:30:54.:30:59.

You could say now the referendum has happened, there is no need for Ukip

:31:00.:31:06.

whatsoever and Labour could start to claw back some of the support they

:31:07.:31:13.

lost to Ukip. No chance of this. In terms of putting forward your

:31:14.:31:15.

individual vision for the party, do you think Ukip is ready to become

:31:16.:31:20.

the first UK wide political party with a gay leader? Of course, I was

:31:21.:31:25.

the only gay candidate in the mayoral race, for example. Not bad

:31:26.:31:28.

going for a supposedly homophobic party! My fellow Assembly Member is

:31:29.:31:39.

a black eye, we are the most diverse group on the London assembly! And

:31:40.:31:44.

this is despite claims of homophobia, have you experienced

:31:45.:31:48.

that? None at all. All of these things are very, very old charges,

:31:49.:31:54.

really. The fact is, what we have now in Britain are people who are

:31:55.:31:58.

not spoken for, they do not trust the Tories and they are quite right

:31:59.:32:02.

not to trust the Tories, and in fact I think there is no chance, whatever

:32:03.:32:16.

this speech is that Theresa May makes, that they will go over to the

:32:17.:32:19.

Tories, and Labour now look down on them and treat them with contempt.

:32:20.:32:21.

Although there have been defections from Ukip to the Tories since the

:32:22.:32:23.

referendum, as you know. Including Steven Woolfe and certainly thought

:32:24.:32:26.

about it, I know he's not now running in the contest. Are you

:32:27.:32:30.

going to stay to the very end of this competition? We are all in it

:32:31.:32:34.

to win it. So you will not be dropping out? I think the question

:32:35.:32:41.

is, people will see, looking at our hustings, which are happening

:32:42.:32:44.

tomorrow in London and then in Wales, two more next week, they will

:32:45.:32:47.

feed the breadth of vision and talent that there is in this party.

:32:48.:32:49.

Peter Whittle, thank you. How should the UK control

:32:50.:32:52.

immigration once we've left the EU? The official Vote Leave campaign

:32:53.:32:59.

argued for an Australian-style points-based system -

:33:00.:33:01.

but that's been ruled Others have suggested a new regime

:33:02.:33:03.

of work permits. My next guest has produced his own

:33:04.:33:06.

plan, which could include continuing freedom of movement for some

:33:07.:33:09.

categories of worker. Here's Sunder Katwala,

:33:10.:33:13.

director of the non-partisan think Sometimes, you sit down

:33:14.:33:15.

in a restaurant, starving hungry, but they've got nothing that

:33:16.:33:35.

sounds very appetising. When it comes to Brexit, the fixed

:33:36.:33:39.

menu seems very narrow indeed. Most of us would like a good trade

:33:40.:33:45.

deal with Europe for British business, but that always comes

:33:46.:33:48.

served with a liberal helping of free movement, which isn't

:33:49.:33:51.

to everyone's taste. And it seems the only alternative

:33:52.:33:53.

is thin gruel, the hardest, The first rule is, don't

:33:54.:33:55.

be rude to the waiter. But you also need an idea

:33:56.:34:07.

of what you want the kitchen If we can't reach a deal

:34:08.:34:12.

by the time the Article 50 clock runs out in 2019,

:34:13.:34:17.

that will count as a The logical outcome for immigration

:34:18.:34:20.

is that we would then apply the same rules for Europeans

:34:21.:34:25.

as we do for outside the EU. But we could make Europe a much more

:34:26.:34:29.

attractive offer than that, one that gives us the control over

:34:30.:34:35.

immigration that the public want, but is appealing enough to the EU

:34:36.:34:39.

that we can still get A new system could still offer

:34:40.:34:42.

preferential treatment Above a certain skill

:34:43.:34:53.

level, we could keep free People don't want fewer engineers

:34:54.:34:57.

or scientists to come. We also need some low-skilled

:34:58.:35:08.

migration too, to pick fruit But here, the public do

:35:09.:35:10.

want to control the scale So let's have quotas for low-skilled

:35:11.:35:14.

work based on what our economy needs, and offer those places

:35:15.:35:19.

to Europeans first as part Britain would get control over

:35:20.:35:22.

the pace of migration, but it's also an attractive offer

:35:23.:35:26.

to the EU and its workers too, certainly more so than if we don't

:35:27.:35:31.

get any deal at all. And if Europe says "non",

:35:32.:35:36.

we can always try another restaurant and offer a similar

:35:37.:35:38.

trade and migration deal with North American,

:35:39.:35:41.

Australian, Indian But we all know that Europe's got

:35:42.:35:43.

great food, so let's see what the Brussels

:35:44.:35:49.

chefs say first. Penny, Cuba on the Vote Leave side

:35:50.:36:07.

in the referendum campaign. We are going to continue to need skilled

:36:08.:36:11.

and unskilled Labour in the British economy after we finally leave the

:36:12.:36:15.

EU so, in your mind, what a quota for unskilled workers make sense?

:36:16.:36:21.

I'm not going to, as I said earlier, showed the Government's hand in

:36:22.:36:25.

terms of what it is going to be negotiating gone, but what I do

:36:26.:36:29.

think is important is that we get back full control. It was one of the

:36:30.:36:34.

key issues in the referendum campaign, and they tweaked something

:36:35.:36:39.

that quite a lot of politicians didn't figure out which was that

:36:40.:36:43.

unless you can control immigration you cannot govern properly or

:36:44.:36:48.

planned services. Control is one thing, control on immigration, to be

:36:49.:36:53.

able to choose the number and the sorts of migrant workers you would

:36:54.:36:57.

like he is not the same as just bringing down the numbers

:36:58.:37:01.

dramatically, the two are not mutually exclusive, so would you at

:37:02.:37:05.

least consider the idea of a quota for a number of unskilled workers to

:37:06.:37:09.

do some of the jobs that British workers have not come up until now,

:37:10.:37:21.

wanted to do? I think a range of issues will be looked at, the only

:37:22.:37:24.

thing that has been ruled out if the points system approach that

:37:25.:37:26.

Australia have taken. But this is a key issue in terms of the

:37:27.:37:28.

negotiations, and the Government isn't going to reveal its hand. That

:37:29.:37:33.

really was the nub of the referendum result, the message that came

:37:34.:37:37.

through loud and clear was, we want to do something about immigration. I

:37:38.:37:41.

think what we know is the public have lost confidence in how the

:37:42.:37:44.

Government has been handling immigration in this country in the

:37:45.:37:47.

last ten or 15 years, there were not the right preparations for the scale

:37:48.:37:50.

of immigration we have had and we have that promises to cut levels

:37:51.:37:54.

that have not been possible so people want especially some control

:37:55.:37:55.

over the scale and pace of unskilled immigration while at the

:37:56.:38:11.

same time they are positive about the contribution immigration can

:38:12.:38:13.

make to this country if it is better managed and controlled. You talk

:38:14.:38:16.

about quotas, how big would that be for unskilled workers? Our proposal

:38:17.:38:19.

is that we would have skilled free movement at levels people were happy

:38:20.:38:22.

about and would decide on an annual basis, something like the budget,

:38:23.:38:29.

talk to the health service, employers, people worried about the

:38:30.:38:32.

impact on communities, the Home Secretary comes to the house, set

:38:33.:38:37.

the quota and we agree what it is. Under the system Europeans would

:38:38.:38:39.

have access to the low skilled work before other people did if we made

:38:40.:38:44.

the deal with Europe. But it would be just another arbitrary number in

:38:45.:38:47.

the way the Government has set in the last Parliament and this

:38:48.:38:50.

Parliament and number to bring down net migration to tens of thousands,

:38:51.:38:55.

which it has consistently failed to do? Something went wrong with that

:38:56.:38:58.

target, which was not possible to meet, which was that the number came

:38:59.:39:02.

first as a sound bite and people scrambled around for policies to

:39:03.:39:11.

meet it and there were none to meet it while we were in the EU. If we

:39:12.:39:14.

have a process on, what other pressures on migration that create

:39:15.:39:16.

reductions, what are the needs for migration, how do we get the

:39:17.:39:19.

balance, you can set the number according to the feeling on the

:39:20.:39:22.

ground in economic sectors, in local areas, about how to match the

:39:23.:39:26.

pressures and gains of immigration, set the number with worked out

:39:27.:39:32.

policy. What about Labour's policy? Am I right in thinking there is not

:39:33.:39:37.

a policy in terms of setting any numbers on net migration or

:39:38.:39:42.

immigration? What we want to do is have a national conversation about

:39:43.:39:46.

immigration and what that means. We have had a national conversation! We

:39:47.:39:51.

had a general election in 2015 and then a referendum debate. The

:39:52.:39:54.

general election covered a host of things and the only question as I

:39:55.:39:58.

understand in the referendum was, do you want to be in Europe or out?

:39:59.:40:05.

There was a really complex result in terms of our understanding of the

:40:06.:40:08.

result and we need to have a more detailed understanding of what that

:40:09.:40:12.

means. As has been pointed out already, our care service, one in

:40:13.:40:16.

five care workers come from overseas, also our NHS staff, we

:40:17.:40:21.

would collapse without those skilled workers but also the less skilled.

:40:22.:40:25.

So you don't want to control the numbers in any way? I said we need

:40:26.:40:30.

to have a national conversation. But that does not answer the question,

:40:31.:40:34.

do you or don't you want to control the numbers? What we want, we need

:40:35.:40:44.

to recognise what migration does and how it supports and enables our

:40:45.:40:50.

economy, so we know there is an net benefit... People rejected that if

:40:51.:40:53.

you interpret the referendum result in that way? What was the question?

:40:54.:41:00.

They said they wanted control... No, they didn't, they said they wanted

:41:01.:41:04.

to be out of Europe and it is complex to understand why they

:41:05.:41:08.

wanted to leave, even in areas where there is no migration, people voted

:41:09.:41:11.

to leave. There are parts of the country where there were very low

:41:12.:41:15.

levels of immigration and they still voted to leave. I think there were

:41:16.:41:18.

many reasons why people voted to leave, for some it was about

:41:19.:41:22.

sovereignty, all sorts of other issues, but I think we are kidding

:41:23.:41:26.

ourselves if we don't accept that immigration was a major part. Excuse

:41:27.:41:32.

me for bringing this back to the Green paper today, there is an

:41:33.:41:35.

element of the Green paper that looks at this, one thing I am

:41:36.:41:38.

conscious of his opportunities to work overseas that disabled people

:41:39.:41:45.

have, even work experience, quite often they are not able to take them

:41:46.:41:50.

up because our support is not flexible enough to do that, so there

:41:51.:41:55.

is a lot we can do in this space for our own citizens. Do you think

:41:56.:41:58.

voters that were concerned with immigration are wrong? No, I

:41:59.:42:02.

understand, area such as Lincolnshire where there has been a

:42:03.:42:08.

real influx of migrants to support our agricultural industry, pressures

:42:09.:42:11.

have been put on local services. At the same time, those local services

:42:12.:42:16.

have been cut by this Government. Do you think British workers will get

:42:17.:42:20.

out into the field and help the seasonal fruit picking instead? I

:42:21.:42:24.

think we need to look at what, different areas need different

:42:25.:42:28.

things, so for example the Government cut the migrant fund and

:42:29.:42:34.

that needs to be reintroduced, we also need to make sure employment

:42:35.:42:36.

agencies don't undercut when they recruit from abroad, undercutting

:42:37.:42:44.

local Labour. There is evidence in terms of how successfully we can

:42:45.:42:48.

integrate communities into different areas, and that hasn't happened

:42:49.:42:52.

either. Some of the Labour MPs in the North have a very different view

:42:53.:42:56.

on immigration and they do think that something should be done about

:42:57.:43:00.

the numbers, even Keir Starmer in Shadow Cabinet said something has to

:43:01.:43:02.

be done about immigration. Is he wrong? No, he's not, he said

:43:03.:43:09.

something has to be done about immigration... He meant bringing

:43:10.:43:14.

down the numbers. It is about how we make sure the economy is supported

:43:15.:43:18.

by migration but also make sure communities are not put under

:43:19.:43:21.

pressure and there are ways that we can do that which has not happened

:43:22.:43:25.

unfortunately in the last few years. How confident are you that both

:43:26.:43:28.

parties but particularly the Government will take on all consider

:43:29.:43:31.

the sort of scheme you have put forward? I think there is potential

:43:32.:43:36.

pragmatic consensus here, both sides have said something important about

:43:37.:43:41.

control on the pace and scale of immigration, openness to the

:43:42.:43:44.

immigration that allows us to get a good deal, so we think a good deal

:43:45.:43:48.

could converge around this proposal. We have heard a lot about red lines

:43:49.:43:52.

on deals people don't want, if we are going to have a sharper debate

:43:53.:43:56.

we have got to hear ideas about practical proposals that we could

:43:57.:43:59.

put on the table and that would be attractive to a consensus in Britain

:44:00.:44:11.

and that I think is a better deal for Europe than we will get it we

:44:12.:44:14.

have a failure on both sides and no deal at all. Are you working closely

:44:15.:44:16.

with ministers? We will speak to ministers on all sides, there are

:44:17.:44:18.

pragmatic voices will remain that will have to come up with a real

:44:19.:44:22.

policy that works for the 52% and the 48%. When do you think the Prime

:44:23.:44:27.

Minister will be able to deliver on her pledge for net migration in the

:44:28.:44:31.

tens of thousands? Ultimately I think that will happen after we

:44:32.:44:38.

leave the EU. So in 2019? We will have to see what system is put in

:44:39.:44:42.

place and precisely what I think needs to happen is the focus on what

:44:43.:44:46.

the economy needs, what skills we need, how many people we need, and

:44:47.:44:50.

that will determine the numbers, that it will... But it will be after

:44:51.:44:55.

the EU that we will get back for control? Thank you.

:44:56.:44:58.

Now let's have a look at what else is coming up this week.

:44:59.:45:01.

The Shadow Brexit Secretary Keir Starmer is hoping to ask

:45:02.:45:03.

an urgent question in the Commons this afternoon about

:45:04.:45:05.

The Japanese car giant announced last Thursday that they would build

:45:06.:45:09.

two new models at their Sunderland factory after receiving "assurances"

:45:10.:45:11.

Labour MP Keith Vaz could have his entry onto the Justice Committee

:45:12.:45:15.

The Conservative MP Andrew Bridgen will try and trigger a Commons vote

:45:16.:45:23.

Keith Vaz resigned as chairman of the Home Affairs Committee last

:45:24.:45:27.

month after newspaper allegations that he had paid

:45:28.:45:29.

On Wednesday, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn will face

:45:30.:45:35.

As always, we'll broadcast the session in full here

:45:36.:45:39.

Later that day, around 70 Labour MPs will launch a centre-left group

:45:40.:45:44.

The MPs behind it say their aim is to help the party produce

:45:45.:45:53.

On Thursday, the Bank of England Governor Mark Carney

:45:54.:45:57.

will deliver the quarterly inflation report.

:45:58.:45:58.

That's the Bank's verdict on how the British economy is performing.

:45:59.:46:02.

It's thought that Mark Carney could use the opportunity to end

:46:03.:46:06.

speculation about whether he will continue in the job

:46:07.:46:08.

Joining me from outside on College Green are the deputy

:46:09.:46:15.

political editor Jason Groves and Martha Gill, who writes

:46:16.:46:17.

Jason Groves, what do you think Mark Carney will do? I think he will

:46:18.:46:31.

stay. He is telling friends he wants to stay and although we understand

:46:32.:46:36.

that he has personal reasons for possibly wanting to return to

:46:37.:46:40.

Canada, he is in a job that pays him a lot of money and he says he wants

:46:41.:46:44.

to see Brexit through. In many ways, he is a lucky man to be able to make

:46:45.:46:50.

his own decision. There are quite a few in government who would be happy

:46:51.:46:54.

to see the back of him. But at this moment, there is a feeling that it

:46:55.:46:57.

might spook the markets for him to go. I think he will stay. Martha,

:46:58.:47:02.

how much fuss will there be from the Tory MPs who have felt Mark Carney

:47:03.:47:07.

overstepped the mark in the EU referendum? Will they make a fuss if

:47:08.:47:12.

he stays? Probably, but if he goes, they will make even more fuss. They

:47:13.:47:16.

will use it as an opportunity to jump on these accusations that he

:47:17.:47:24.

torched the economy down and made incorrect calls before Brexit. If he

:47:25.:47:28.

went, it would certainly cause uncertainty in the markets, adding

:47:29.:47:34.

to the stress caused by Brexit. Let's talk about Nissan and those

:47:35.:47:40.

assurances. A letter was enough to persuade Nissan to continue

:47:41.:47:43.

investing in the north-east. What was promised, do you think? We got a

:47:44.:47:48.

good outline of what was promised from Greg Clark yesterday. There

:47:49.:47:51.

were three areas where the government offered the kind of

:47:52.:47:53.

grants you might expect a government to offer any big business,

:47:54.:47:58.

investing, training and research. Then there was this extra area where

:47:59.:48:05.

the real political debate is now, in that he has offered them an

:48:06.:48:09.

assurance that they can continue trading without tariffs and without

:48:10.:48:11.

bureaucratic impediments. Nobody quite knows what that means. We

:48:12.:48:17.

don't know who is applies to. Interestingly, the letter doesn't

:48:18.:48:20.

say what happens if the government can't deliver that. At the moment,

:48:21.:48:24.

they can't guarantee it. Negotiations with Brussels haven't

:48:25.:48:27.

even started, and we are already making promises about the outcome.

:48:28.:48:33.

Presumably, if that cannot be upheld, the idea of no tariffs being

:48:34.:48:37.

put on car-makers like Nissan, there would have to be compensation which

:48:38.:48:43.

would be taxpayer funded. That is the key question. That is what I

:48:44.:48:46.

suspect Keir Starmer, the shadow Brexit secretary, will be grilling

:48:47.:48:54.

Greg Clark on today. I suspect he will also be interested in whether

:48:55.:48:58.

there are sector by sector deals, because Greg Clark was only talking

:48:59.:49:05.

about the car industry yesterday. It would be extraordinary for the

:49:06.:49:07.

government to monitor deals sector by sector. I suspect Keir Starmer

:49:08.:49:13.

will want to find out whether all of Britain's other key industries will

:49:14.:49:16.

get the same kind of deals that the car industry seems to be getting. We

:49:17.:49:20.

will be listening to Business Secretary Greg Clark when he talks

:49:21.:49:24.

about these things. Let's move onto Keith Vaz, the Labour MP currently

:49:25.:49:29.

under investigation. This issue has been raised by Andrew Bridge, the

:49:30.:49:33.

Conservative MP, because Keith Vaz wants to take his place on the

:49:34.:49:36.

Justice committee. Is he going to get anywhere with his opposition?

:49:37.:49:42.

Well, Andrew tells me he has secured a vote in the Commons tonight. We

:49:43.:49:45.

will have to see what the numbers are. It is an unusual situation. For

:49:46.:49:52.

a lot of members of the public, they will be surprised that a man in

:49:53.:49:56.

Keith Vaz's position is going for a seat on the Justice committee at

:49:57.:49:58.

this time when he has all this hanging over him. He has had to step

:49:59.:50:02.

down from the home affairs committee. I suspect if he had been

:50:03.:50:05.

on the Justice committee, he would have had to step back from that. It

:50:06.:50:09.

is extraordinary that he is going for this. My gut feeling is that he

:50:10.:50:13.

will get on. But we will have to wait and see. Martha Gill, what do

:50:14.:50:22.

you think will happen? I agree. These things tend to go through

:50:23.:50:27.

smoothly. It would be unusual for it to be blocked at this stage, but it

:50:28.:50:31.

is also unusual for somebody involved in ongoing investigations

:50:32.:50:37.

like Keith Vaz to get onto such a prestigious select committee. We

:50:38.:50:39.

will see. Thank you both very much. As we've just been discussing,

:50:40.:50:44.

Labour have secured what's known as an "urgent question" in the House

:50:45.:50:47.

of Commons this afternoon to discuss the detail

:50:48.:50:49.

of assurances given to Nissan by the Business Secretary Greg

:50:50.:50:52.

Clark, which led to the car manufacturer committing to continue

:50:53.:50:54.

production of its cars It's of no interest for there

:50:55.:50:56.

to be tariff barriers to the Continent and vice versa,

:50:57.:51:03.

so I said that our objective would be to ensure that we have

:51:04.:51:07.

continued access to the markets without tariffs and without

:51:08.:51:11.

bureaucratic impediments. And that is how we will approach

:51:12.:51:13.

those negotiations. Should he just publish the letter? I

:51:14.:51:32.

don't think so, but he has been open about the discussions he has had

:51:33.:51:37.

with Nissan and I am sure he will say more in the meeting later today.

:51:38.:51:42.

This is quite normal, and it would be weird if a business didn't use

:51:43.:51:51.

Brexit as a way of furthering its own aims. Unsuccessfully in the case

:51:52.:51:58.

of Nissan. Other car-makers will be saying, are we going to get the same

:51:59.:52:07.

deal? We want to reassure any company that is periodically

:52:08.:52:12.

reviewing staying in the UK or relocating that it is best investing

:52:13.:52:18.

here. Of course, but what has been dangled in front of Nissan to make

:52:19.:52:23.

them stay? Reports have said they were considering leaving, so what

:52:24.:52:26.

did the government promise and will the taxpayer have to pay? This is

:52:27.:52:32.

really about ensuring that business has confidence in this government.

:52:33.:52:41.

Is this a good idea, to do sector by sector deals, where you could have

:52:42.:52:46.

free trade agreements for the car industry, for example, to ensure

:52:47.:52:51.

that companies like Nissan stay put? We want to see the detail of that.

:52:52.:52:57.

But is it a good idea? I am not sure, because I have not seen the

:52:58.:53:04.

detail. By publishing the letter, we get an opportunity to analyse

:53:05.:53:08.

whether it was a good idea or not. Well, he has said quite a lot. He

:53:09.:53:12.

said there would not be tariffs placed on goods. Is that an

:53:13.:53:20.

assurance enough for you? There was an interview last night from the

:53:21.:53:25.

boss of Nissan which was implying something slightly different. Let's

:53:26.:53:29.

take Greg Clark at his word that there would not be any tariffs that

:53:30.:53:33.

would be put on car manufacturers when exporting. Would that be a good

:53:34.:53:40.

deal? Obviously, we want to make sure that companies in the UK can

:53:41.:53:45.

trade as freely as possible with Europe. But we need to see the

:53:46.:53:53.

detail. If Nissan are now getting a sweetener through the taxpayer, why

:53:54.:53:57.

couldn't we provide it to another business? This sweetener might be

:53:58.:54:04.

that in the end, if we can't keep that assurance of error free trade,

:54:05.:54:10.

we will compensate you. Would that be all right for the government said

:54:11.:54:15.

taxpayers will fund compensation if we cannot keep our promise of tariff

:54:16.:54:21.

free trade? Greg Clark has been quite straightforward in his

:54:22.:54:26.

interview yesterday. We don't know about that. Well, he did say there

:54:27.:54:32.

was not money dangled in order to secure them remaining in the UK. As

:54:33.:54:40.

you would expect from someone who supported the Leave camp, I think

:54:41.:54:46.

common sense will prevail. I think businesses in Europe will want to

:54:47.:54:49.

trade with us as we do with them. And some of the obstacles that are

:54:50.:54:54.

being floated will not come to pass. Let's see what happens.

:54:55.:54:56.

So, ever wanted to keep track of how your MP has been

:54:57.:54:59.

Whether they toe the party line, or are a serial rebel?

:55:00.:55:03.

It's all information that's recorded, but now, thanks

:55:04.:55:04.

to a new app launched by Parliament called Commons Vote,

:55:05.:55:07.

you can get hold of it almost immediately

:55:08.:55:09.

Ellie has been looking at how it all works.

:55:10.:55:14.

It's what happens when the Speaker needs MPs

:55:15.:55:17.

And this bell rings to let everyone know.

:55:18.:55:25.

If I wanted to vote against whatever was being proposed, I would get up

:55:26.:55:30.

out of the chamber and head to the no lobby, which is that way.

:55:31.:55:36.

If I wanted to vote in favour, I'd go that way to the ayes.

:55:37.:55:42.

Once a vote or division is called, MPs have eight minutes

:55:43.:55:45.

to get from the chamber or wherever they are.

:55:46.:55:49.

Then I would get to the desks here and work out which queue

:55:50.:55:52.

But things recently have changed, so what's different?

:55:53.:56:06.

Until earlier this year, members' names were recorded

:56:07.:56:08.

on pen and paper and when they came through,

:56:09.:56:10.

a clerk recorded their name with a marker pen.

:56:11.:56:13.

Now we've changed to a system of recording names by tablet device,

:56:14.:56:16.

we have the data in a digital format.

:56:17.:56:19.

So it's quite a traditional process, with a modern twist.

:56:20.:56:22.

Everything else has stayed the same as for many decades.

:56:23.:56:25.

Members still walk through the lobbies,

:56:26.:56:27.

but the way we record votes has changed.

:56:28.:56:30.

And that's useful for the clever technical people, who've come up

:56:31.:56:33.

So we have a nice copy of Hansard, how it was traditionally recorded.

:56:34.:56:47.

We've got a list of all the votes and we can scroll through them,

:56:48.:56:53.

have a look at what has gone on in the past.

:56:54.:56:55.

And we can see that there were 195 ayes and 280 noes.

:56:56.:56:58.

If you choose the noes, you can get a list of all those

:56:59.:57:01.

We can also look at all the members, so you can scroll through

:57:02.:57:06.

or search for their name, and we can choose a member.

:57:07.:57:08.

If we choose Luciana Berger, we can see how she has voted

:57:09.:57:11.

in every division, and you get the count of the division as well,

:57:12.:57:14.

so you can quickly see what side she was on.

:57:15.:57:17.

Everything that goes on in parliament will continue

:57:18.:57:19.

It just means you can get the information on the move.

:57:20.:57:23.

I can see how that will help us journalists. Will you get more

:57:24.:57:35.

hassle from your constituency and voters if they think you haven't

:57:36.:57:39.

voted the way you should? I think anything that helps voters to know

:57:40.:57:43.

what is going on and about the process is a good thing. It would

:57:44.:57:47.

just mean they get it a little quicker than they have in the past.

:57:48.:57:52.

Is this part of the attempt at modernisation processes in the

:57:53.:57:57.

Commons? About time. I think it will be great. Constituents want to know

:57:58.:58:00.

the information. I can get it quicker. I like the idea of them

:58:01.:58:05.

wandering around with their apps. There's just time before we go

:58:06.:58:08.

to find out the answer to our quiz. B) Ed Balls' mad

:58:09.:58:12.

professor on Strictly? C) The wails of former

:58:13.:58:20.

Prime Minister Viscount Goderich - known as the "Blubberer"

:58:21.:58:23.

for his tendency to cry while in office, or d) The feline

:58:24.:58:25.

ghost of former chief mouser, So Debbie and Penny,

:58:26.:58:28.

what's the correct answer? I am going to go for the cigar

:58:29.:58:37.

smoker. I will go for the cigar smoke as well. You are both right,

:58:38.:58:42.

although I think we may have shown the picture too early! It is the

:58:43.:58:45.

cigar smoke, not Ed Balls. Thanks, Penny, Debbie

:58:46.:58:46.

and all my guests. The One O'Clock News is starting

:58:47.:58:51.

over on BBC One now. I'll be here at noon tomorrow

:58:52.:58:54.

with all the big political to commemorate the Africans

:58:55.:59:06.

who were here.

:59:07.:59:09.

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