31/10/2016 Daily Politics


31/10/2016

Jo Coburn is joined by Penny Mordaunt and Debbie Abrahams to discuss the government's plans for welfare reform and claims around the official NHS spending figures.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:38.

The Government comes under fire over its funding

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for the NHS in England, as MPs say the Prime Minister's

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claim that it's getting a ?10 billion boost is "false".

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The race to replace Nigel Farage heats up as nominations

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One candidate pulls out at the last minute and accuses the top

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of the party of treating the contest "like a coronation".

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Work and Pensions Secretary Damian Green promises personalised support

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to help more people move from benefits into work.

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We'll look at the Government's plans for welfare reform.

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And we've exclusive behind-the-scenes access

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to the House of Commons voting lobby, where old traditions

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are being updated with digital technology.

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All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole

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of the programme today, the Minister for Disabled People,

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And, soon, the Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary, Debbie Abrahams.

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Let's start with the warning today from the Conservative chair

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of the Health Select Committee that the NHS in England

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is under enormous pressure and needs more more money.

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Sarah Wollaston also says that Government claims that the NHS

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in England is due to receive an extra ?10 billion

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It gives a false impression that the NHS is awash with cash,

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and in fact if you look at the way that figure is reached,

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it's by adding another year to the Spending Review and also

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by changing pots of money from one part of the health budget

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to another, so for example taking money out of public health

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And so it can give an impression that more is given when in fact

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the real figure is very considerably lower.

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Sarah Wallerstein there. The real figure, she says, is 4.5 billion, so

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less than half. Is she right, or the Government? I have a great deal of

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respect for Sarah and she has said good things about the need to get

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more money into prevention and primary care, but I think she is

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wrong on the numbers. We have funded the NHS' own plan, they asked us, we

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asked them how much they needed, they said in Italy 8 billion, that

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rose to ten and we have given them that money. But hang on, the money

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is going to NHS in England, which is, albeit important, one part of

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the NHS. What Sarah Wollaston was saying is that other parts of the

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NHS, such as social care, is losing money, money taken from the budget

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to boost another part, so the NHS as a whole is not getting a ?10 billion

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boost. Two points, first of all we have funded the NHS' own plan, the

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second thing is, with regard to the other services such as social care

:03:33.:03:40.

that local Government funds, local Government reserves have doubled

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since 2010, there are 22.5 billion currently sat in local Government

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reserve accounts. Every local Government person on this programme

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has said they have been cut to the bone and social care has been

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starved over a longer period of time then just boosting reserves

:03:57.:04:01.

recently. Don't get me wrong, there are challenges there but money is

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going into those areas, 5.3 billion in the better care fund and we have

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enabled local governments to raise its own money,

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we have relaxed the rules around how much council tax can be raised

:04:25.:04:26.

locally, provided it is spent on social care. But money is not the

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only issue here, the way we are going to get all the money that is

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available in the system to work best is if we enable people at local

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level to put that money into prevention and early services. Not

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piling it on to acute care. I take that point, but she is making a

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serious accusation that the Government has misled the public,

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have they? Know. So she is wrong? Absolutely. She says you only arrive

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at the budget of ?10 billion in terms of a boost over five years by

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shifting money from public health budget and health education and

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training, and also including an extra year in the calculation, so

:05:02.:05:07.

2015-2015 rather than just the term of this Parliament. That is

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misleading, it is slight of hand? Know, this is funding the NHS' own

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plan. There are other issues she raises about particular pressures

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that health care faces, inflation and so forth on drug costs and

:05:20.:05:25.

things like that, but this is about as supplying the money the NHS said

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it needed. We were the only political party to make that

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commitment at the general election and since then... That has been

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contested, saying it is aimed misinterpretation by the

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Conservative Government. East so you are saying money has not shifted

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from any other budget and including the extra year is not misleading? I

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do not follow what Sarah says when she says we are claiming that the

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system is awash with cash. We have never claimed that, we note that

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every year there are increasing pressures, an older population being

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just one of them, so we know that there are serious challenges out

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there but we have made this a priority, we have said to the NHS,

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give us your plan, tell us what you need and we will meet that. In

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addition to that, we have enabled local Government, on top of the

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better care fund, which is going into social care, we have enabled it

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to raise its own money. Well, she said she will have conversations

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with Philip Hammond, the Treasury, about this, so that should be

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interesting. Thank you. It's Halloween, so what ghostly

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presence is supposed to be Is it a) Winston

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Churchill's cigar smoke? B) The apparition of Ed Balls' mad

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professor on Strictly? C) The wails of former

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Prime Minister Viscount Goderich, known as 'the blubberer' for his

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tendency to cry while in office. Or, d) the feline ghost of former

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chief mouser Humphrey the cat. At the end of the show Penny

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and Debbie, who has now arrived, Welfare reform was one

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of the centrepieces of David Cameron's programme

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when the Conservatives first came Today the Government has announced

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new plans to help more disabled people into employment,

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which they say will provide a more "targeted and personalised" way

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to help more people find jobs. But with pressure on Ministers

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to make work pay and reduce welfare Damian Green said earlier this month

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that his vision was 'a welfare state fit for the world of work

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in the 21st century'. So what issues are on the Work

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and Pensions Secretary's desk? Work capability assessments,

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the scheme that assesses claimants of disability benefits,

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are set for an overhaul as part Statutory sick pay and GP fit notes

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are also to be reviewed as part of an effort to help disabled people

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back into work. But the Government still faces

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criticism for failures by Concentrix, a private company

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contracted to tackle benefit fraud that has been accused of incorrectly

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withdrawing tax credits The flagship universal credit scheme

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is up and running but is not forecast to be fully

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delivered until 2022 - 11 years after it

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was first announced. The Conservative MP Heidi Allen has

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called for cuts to work incentives in the scheme made

:08:44.:08:47.

by George Osborne to be reversed. And there is increased scrutiny

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over the triple lock - the Government's pledge

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that the state pension will always rise by wages, prices or 2.5%,

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whichever is higher. Former Work and Pensions Secretary

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Iain Duncan Smith told the Sunday Politics yesterday

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that it was time to scrap the pledge and spend

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the money elsewhere. Well, the Work and Pensions

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Secretary, Damian Green, was talking earlier this morning

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about those new plans to help more Well, the system isn't working well

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enough for large numbers of people. We've got huge numbers of people,

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unprecedentedly high numbers of people, in work,

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about 80%, but just under 50% And what I want to do is to tap

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into the huge amount of talent there is there,

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and also most of those people do want to work, and so the system

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needs to change so that We aspire to be a Government that

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works for everyone and that includes all those people who want to work

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but now can't, and that requires changes not just in Jobcentre Plus,

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the things I'm directly responsible for, but also in the health service

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and in the attitude of employers. Damian Green there. The Government

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is reviewing the work capability assessment, by giving that are you

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admitting it is not currently fit for purpose? I think it could be

:10:15.:10:21.

improved dramatically both in terms of the process, currently we don't

:10:22.:10:24.

make good use of all of the bits of information different parts of

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Government has, we require people to feel into many forms and give the

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State information, the same information, over and again, so

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there is a lot that can still be done with the process. We have

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obviously made some announcements on changing that, for example not

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requiring people with degenerative conditions to go through retests,

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but we think there are further more fundamental reforms that are

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required, particularly splitting out the finance from any conditionality

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that we place on an individual. Why has it taken so long? I am conscious

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that I have been in the Department for 18 weeks and my in tray looks

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very different to the one Iain Duncan Smith had to tackle when he

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took over the department, so I think we are building on the reforms that

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he has done. But it is a slow process. I think there were some

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other things that were very pressing that he wanted to tackle. But we are

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now in a position because of work done and other reforms that the work

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capability assessment has undergone to take this fundamental look and I

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think it is long overdue, but very important that we start the

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consultation. And something that perhaps should have been done by

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Iain Duncan Smith, having got as far as he did with the reforms? We are

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continuing a programme of work that he set out. The reason this is so

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important is that currently you have people with a health condition, or

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who have a disability, who are parked with no support, so

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ironically those that need the most help don't get it because we have

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money attached to the conditions that we place on someone. That needs

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to be reformed. We will talk about some of the incentives for people

:12:12.:12:14.

with chronic illnesses or long-term conditions in a moment, but do you

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welcome the fact that this review is happening, even if you think it is

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long overdue, is it the right review? As you have just said,

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actions speak louder than words. We have known for a number of years

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that the work capability assessment is not working, it dehumanises

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people, there is a piece of research at last year that shows it

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exacerbates mental health conditions, increasing suicides.

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There are all sorts of issues associated with not just the work

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capability assessment but other aspects of it. Do you accept that

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assessment that that is what it has done to people either disabled and

:12:52.:12:54.

claiming benefit or other people with long-term conditions who have

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to go through that work assessment, that it has caused them to become

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more ill or in some places commit suicide? I think that leaving aside

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the fundamental reforms we want to do to the policy, the delivery of

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that policy is absolutely critical. I think even if you don't have

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anxiety or depression or anything that could be exacerbated by such a

:13:20.:13:23.

process, if you are having to go through an enormous amount of

:13:24.:13:29.

bureaucracy and an unnecessary number of assessments, that is not

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going to do anyone any good at all, so I think it is the process as well

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as what we are trying to get out of that. So you admit it has not helped

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in many people's cases in terms of trying to deal with what are

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probably difficult things? The Government's statement include

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references to helping people with long-term conditions but we have

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heard to date on the BBC that people with long-term conditions such as

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rheumatoid arthritis or Parkinson's, there is a of threat or incentive

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hanging over those people that they are going to be reassessed despite

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the fact that they have long-term conditions which would make it

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difficult to go back to work, do you accept that? Part of the reason we

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are doing the paper jointly with health is because we realise it is

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not just employment support interventions that need to be

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improved, it is also about people who need access to pain management,

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physiotherapy, a whole raft of interventions, mental health support

:14:29.:14:33.

being a particularly poignant one. That is why we are producing this

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paper today, because we know that, to date, the systems have not worked

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to assist those people. But let me be very clear that those people who

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are not able to work will not be required to work. That will come as

:14:48.:14:53.

some comfort to people, of course the definition of who is not able to

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work will still be up for interpretation. Can I just put to

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you first of all, you said yesterday the Government's approach was

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ideological grip on with the sole purpose of targeting the most

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vulnerable in society, what is your evidence for that? First of all let

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me comment on what Penny has just said. We are in the context of an

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NHS financial crisis. Not just a social care

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crisis, we are talking about support for disabled people, some basic

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support about helping them get out of bed in the morning. Where on

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earth is that going to come from? This is completely pie in the sky,

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we have employment support cuts for disabled people by more than a

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third. Again, how is this about helping get disabled people into

:15:41.:15:45.

work? It is all very well, as I said, they are fine words but

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actions speak louder. So you will wait to see what the actions are,

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but come back to the question, ideological driven with the purpose

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of targeting the most vulnerable in society, do you stand by that

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claimed that that is what the Government is doing? If we look at

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what has happened over the last few years, nearly ?30 billion of cuts to

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7 million people, another 1500 per year for people on EFA WRAG, these

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are the most vulnerable people in society and we should not target

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them. There is no evidence in terms of the approach the Government is

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taking, this is about getting people off loaded, purely and simply. So

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you are targeting the most vulnerable because the cuts show

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that? I think that is very wrong and there is... You are right, it is

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wrong! There is a mood to portray not just Government but also those

:16:43.:16:46.

people providing those services in our job centres as people that don't

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care, and this issue should be an issue... People have come to me and

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said people are being targeted. Don't talk over each other, finish

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your sentence. I had a constituent who worked in a job centre for 20

:17:01.:17:04.

years and came to me and said claimants are being targeted, there

:17:05.:17:10.

are targets about getting people off-loaded, sanctions through the

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work capability assessment. If you have targets driven by

:17:12.:17:23.

profit, surely you will get a situation where people are treated

:17:24.:17:26.

as if they are in a sausage factory? It used to be the case that

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Jobcentre staff was rewarded depending on how they were

:17:37.:17:40.

performing. This was not a good way to monitor things. What we should be

:17:41.:17:46.

measuring and what the thrust of the green paper is and the changes we

:17:47.:17:49.

have made over the last 18 weeks is measuring individuals' distance

:17:50.:17:54.

travelled. There will be some people whose goals are to get back into

:17:55.:18:01.

full-time work. There will be some whose goal is meaningful activity,

:18:02.:18:04.

and some will not be able to do any of that. We have to look at what

:18:05.:18:08.

support that individual needs. By companies that the government has

:18:09.:18:11.

employed to do these jobs have not had a good track record in dealing

:18:12.:18:16.

with people on a human basis so far, if you believe all the stories. And

:18:17.:18:25.

on that, Concentrix, the company contacted by the government to

:18:26.:18:29.

tackle tax credit fraud which was accused of incorrectly withdrawing

:18:30.:18:31.

benefits from hundreds of families, do you accept that ministers bear

:18:32.:18:36.

responsibility for this by incentivising payment by results?

:18:37.:18:41.

Well, the issues we have with tax credits are serious. And they are

:18:42.:18:48.

unacceptable. I have had them in my own constituency. But we need to

:18:49.:18:54.

ensure that whether it is in a contract, whether we performance

:18:55.:18:57.

manage our staff, the right incentives are there. But those were

:18:58.:19:01.

the wrong incentives. If you incentivised by payment by results,

:19:02.:19:07.

you are going to get the sort of very sad stories that we hear is as

:19:08.:19:10.

a result of going through the system. In the case of the tax

:19:11.:19:17.

credits the problem is some of the IT systems they have been using. We

:19:18.:19:25.

had a case the other day of someone who was accused of living in a shop,

:19:26.:19:32.

because they were living above a shop. Does the government over those

:19:33.:19:39.

people an apology? Absolutely. We have to accept that the policy is

:19:40.:19:43.

one thing and even if we have the perfect policy, we have to ensure

:19:44.:19:48.

that it is delivered in an excellent way. With regard to the Department

:19:49.:19:59.

for Work and Pensions, our staff are subject matter experts with these

:20:00.:20:04.

issues. They are not medical professionals. That is nonsense. We

:20:05.:20:14.

have expert disability advisers. You have one specialist disability

:20:15.:20:18.

adviser for every 600 people. How can you say you are committed? That

:20:19.:20:24.

is why we are bringing out another 300. On the basis that Penny

:20:25.:20:28.

Mordaunt says ministers should apologise for the tax credit

:20:29.:20:31.

debacle, which meant hundreds of families had their tax credits

:20:32.:20:35.

stopped, do you welcome that apology? I do. The statement of last

:20:36.:20:43.

week was a very measured one. And now, when we look at what will be in

:20:44.:20:49.

the contracts in future for work capability assessments, do you

:20:50.:20:52.

accept Penny Mordaunt's word that it would be different and that it will

:20:53.:20:55.

not be incentivising payment by results? Performance management is

:20:56.:21:00.

key. Governments of all colours have not been good around contracting,

:21:01.:21:04.

both in terms of the design and in terms of performance managing it. We

:21:05.:21:10.

all need to get better. But I would like to know what we are going to do

:21:11.:21:14.

about access to work. With 1.3 million disabled people who want to

:21:15.:21:20.

work and only 35,000 able to get access to work to help them get back

:21:21.:21:27.

to work, the figures don't match. I am interested in the specifics

:21:28.:21:32.

around that. What about the comment Iain Duncan Smith made at the

:21:33.:21:36.

weekend. More than half of the work and pensions budget goes on

:21:37.:21:42.

benefits. He suggested it might be time to do away with the triple

:21:43.:21:47.

lock. Do you agree? I don't. As a chairman of the all party group on

:21:48.:21:50.

ageing, I would point out that the older you are, your cost of living

:21:51.:21:58.

goes up. Is it affordable? I think it is and I think it is important

:21:59.:22:01.

that we protect those benefits for pensioners. Do you agree?

:22:02.:22:09.

Absolutely. What about the welfare cap on how much the government

:22:10.:22:13.

spends overall on social security benefits? It is popular but it has

:22:14.:22:17.

been breached every year since it has been brought in. Is there any

:22:18.:22:22.

point continuing with it? It is important that we have welfare

:22:23.:22:28.

spending under control. But we also need to ensure that the reach of our

:22:29.:22:39.

programmes is as they need to be. Our green paper has not been

:22:40.:22:43.

published yet, both but there will be a focus on that. We have to

:22:44.:22:46.

ensure that not only the reach, but the quality of these programmes is

:22:47.:22:52.

there. The cuts that George Osborne introduced to work incentives,

:22:53.:22:58.

should they be reversed as Heidi Allen said? There are no plans to do

:22:59.:23:02.

that. What I would take to Heidi and others who are concerned about that

:23:03.:23:07.

is to look at the whole package for those individuals in terms of the

:23:08.:23:14.

living wage and their personal tax contributions. According to the

:23:15.:23:18.

Resolution Foundation, a single parent with a child under four

:23:19.:23:22.

working full-time on the minimum wage would receive ?3600 less. How

:23:23.:23:26.

does that help the families who are just managing, the very people

:23:27.:23:31.

Theresa May says she wants to help? I met that organisation last week

:23:32.:23:34.

and I would say that you have to look of a package of support we are

:23:35.:23:37.

giving people in the round, which includes those other things. This is

:23:38.:23:42.

outrageous. Universal credit was meant to be introduced to make work

:23:43.:23:46.

pay and we supported it on that basis. On average, 2.5 million

:23:47.:23:52.

families will be over ?2000 a year worse off. We now have a situation

:23:53.:23:55.

where there are more families who are in work living in poverty than

:23:56.:23:59.

there are workless families. This is a travesty and it has happened under

:24:00.:24:04.

this government's what. Two thirds of the 4 million children living in

:24:05.:24:07.

poverty are from working families. We must reverse these cuts if we are

:24:08.:24:10.

to have a meaningful impact. After the false start

:24:11.:24:17.

earlier this autumn, when Diane James lasted just 18 days

:24:18.:24:19.

in the job, Ukip's search Our political correspondent

:24:20.:24:22.

Alex Forsyth is keeping a close eye It seems that the nominees are

:24:23.:24:37.

dropping like fliess yeah. When this contest was announced, which was

:24:38.:24:39.

itself a surprise after Diane James did just 18 days in the job, there

:24:40.:24:43.

was a flurry of people who thought they would throw their hat in the

:24:44.:24:48.

ring for the next Ukip leader role. But as of today, when nominations

:24:49.:24:51.

have closed, we know of only four left in the running. This morning,

:24:52.:24:55.

the latest candidate to dropout was Raheem Kassam. He is a former aide

:24:56.:24:59.

to Nigel Farage, one of the first to declare that he would stand for the

:25:00.:25:03.

leadership this time. He only did his formal launch on Friday, a

:25:04.:25:07.

couple of days ago. Over the weekend in the papers, a he got a lot of

:25:08.:25:12.

coverage, so it came as a surprise when he decided to withdraw this

:25:13.:25:17.

morning. He said in his statement that he thought the path to victory

:25:18.:25:21.

was too narrow. Read into that that he thinks senior figures in the

:25:22.:25:24.

party are getting behind Paul Nuttall and so there was little

:25:25.:25:27.

chance of him winning. He also cited some anger at the media, saying

:25:28.:25:31.

journalists have turned up at his parents' home, and also fundraising.

:25:32.:25:36.

It was thought that the multimillionaire backer Arron Banks

:25:37.:25:39.

was behind Raheem Kassam, but he said in a statement this morning

:25:40.:25:42.

that they only had enough money to run a digital campaign based on

:25:43.:25:46.

Westminster. He didn't think that would be effective, so that was part

:25:47.:25:50.

of the reason he pulled out. I have spoken to Mr Kassam and he said he

:25:51.:25:53.

did still have the support of Arron Banks, but he did not want to take a

:25:54.:25:57.

lot of donations to come second, so he stood down. We will get the final

:25:58.:26:01.

list of candidates this afternoon and the hustings start tomorrow. Did

:26:02.:26:07.

he also imply that the system had been rigged? He said he had asked

:26:08.:26:10.

questions over the weekend over the integrity of the process, and he was

:26:11.:26:14.

not convinced by it. He does not go so far as to say the process has

:26:15.:26:19.

been rigged, but he implies that the weight of the party machine is

:26:20.:26:21.

getting behind Paul Nuttall, who some see as the frontrunner and the

:26:22.:26:27.

one potential unity candidate who can lead Ukip out of the mess they

:26:28.:26:30.

have been in for the past year. So I think Raheem Kassam's implication is

:26:31.:26:34.

that he didn't think he could win against the weight of the party

:26:35.:26:37.

machine and the senior figures who want Paul Nuttall to succeed. That

:26:38.:26:45.

is another reason he decided to pull out. So we are left with four names

:26:46.:26:49.

in the frame, but no final confirmation from Ukip yet as to the

:26:50.:26:55.

short list. The new leader is expected to be announced by the end

:26:56.:26:56.

of the month. We've been joined by one

:26:57.:26:57.

of the four remaining candidates to be Ukip leader,

:26:58.:26:59.

Peter Whittle, who is a member You must be pleased that Raheem

:27:00.:27:11.

Kassam has withdrawn. I am not particularly pleased, because I have

:27:12.:27:14.

known him for a long time and he is an exceptionally talented guy and a

:27:15.:27:22.

very individual guy. And what the leadership contests are showing this

:27:23.:27:28.

time is that this is the contest we should have been having all along.

:27:29.:27:34.

There are people of real merit. I would want as many people as

:27:35.:27:38.

possible to be on show. He is backing you, so you must be pleased.

:27:39.:27:45.

It is kind of him to back me. If you look at the people standing now,

:27:46.:27:51.

they are extremely talented people. That is what people have to know

:27:52.:27:56.

about our party. Do you have a chance of winning against Paul

:27:57.:27:59.

Nuttall and Suzanne Evans? Well, you don't enter these things with a

:28:00.:28:04.

counsel of despair. You have to resist questions like that. The fact

:28:05.:28:10.

is, I love this party. I have been in it for four years. I have been

:28:11.:28:15.

culture spokesman for three. This year, we had a real breakthrough and

:28:16.:28:20.

got two assembly members on to the London Assembly. People said we

:28:21.:28:25.

would never do that in London. But the party has gone through a series

:28:26.:28:29.

of convulsions, losing a leader after 18 days, which is careless to

:28:30.:28:34.

say the least. But Mr Kassam said he would be the Farage-ist candidate.

:28:35.:28:41.

Is that the mantle you are now going to assume? I have always been a

:28:42.:28:45.

supporter of Nigel. There is no revisionism going on there. Nigel is

:28:46.:28:52.

a towering figure. Isn't that why the party is having the problems it

:28:53.:28:58.

is, because he has gone? It was always going to be tough picking a

:28:59.:29:03.

new leader, because he is the most influential politician we have had

:29:04.:29:07.

in two generations. And no one will go back on his legacy. But we are

:29:08.:29:18.

now in a position where we can go onto a brilliant act two. Whatever

:29:19.:29:25.

that might be. It is very simple. Our first goal was the referendum.

:29:26.:29:29.

Our next goal will be to replace Labour as the real opposition in

:29:30.:29:33.

this country. What do you say to that, Debbie Abrahams? I would

:29:34.:29:39.

prefer to know more about your policies. Other than leaving Europe,

:29:40.:29:44.

I am not clear on what Ukip stands for, particularly on the NHS, which

:29:45.:29:55.

Paul Nuttall has slated. No. The fact is with Ukip, everyone knows

:29:56.:29:59.

what we stand for, which is unusual in politics these days. Then it is

:30:00.:30:03.

interesting that there are divisions within your party. Mr Kassam says he

:30:04.:30:07.

is worried about the integrity of the process and the leadership

:30:08.:30:13.

contest. Has he got a point? That is not a picture I recognise. It has

:30:14.:30:20.

all been done very fairly and professionally. So he is wrong about

:30:21.:30:26.

that? It is not a picture I recognise. The whole progress of the

:30:27.:30:33.

leadership campaign has been very smooth this time, because we know

:30:34.:30:37.

what is at stake and we want this party to be a success because there

:30:38.:30:40.

are people, particularly in the Midlands and the north... It is not

:30:41.:30:46.

just a question of being opportunist, but we have a duty to

:30:47.:30:49.

speak for those people. That is why I want us to be the official

:30:50.:30:53.

opposition in years to come. 2020 is the big star for that.

:30:54.:30:59.

You could say now the referendum has happened, there is no need for Ukip

:31:00.:31:06.

whatsoever and Labour could start to claw back some of the support they

:31:07.:31:13.

lost to Ukip. No chance of this. In terms of putting forward your

:31:14.:31:15.

individual vision for the party, do you think Ukip is ready to become

:31:16.:31:20.

the first UK wide political party with a gay leader? Of course, I was

:31:21.:31:25.

the only gay candidate in the mayoral race, for example. Not bad

:31:26.:31:28.

going for a supposedly homophobic party! My fellow Assembly Member is

:31:29.:31:39.

a black eye, we are the most diverse group on the London assembly! And

:31:40.:31:44.

this is despite claims of homophobia, have you experienced

:31:45.:31:48.

that? None at all. All of these things are very, very old charges,

:31:49.:31:54.

really. The fact is, what we have now in Britain are people who are

:31:55.:31:58.

not spoken for, they do not trust the Tories and they are quite right

:31:59.:32:02.

not to trust the Tories, and in fact I think there is no chance, whatever

:32:03.:32:16.

this speech is that Theresa May makes, that they will go over to the

:32:17.:32:19.

Tories, and Labour now look down on them and treat them with contempt.

:32:20.:32:21.

Although there have been defections from Ukip to the Tories since the

:32:22.:32:23.

referendum, as you know. Including Steven Woolfe and certainly thought

:32:24.:32:26.

about it, I know he's not now running in the contest. Are you

:32:27.:32:30.

going to stay to the very end of this competition? We are all in it

:32:31.:32:34.

to win it. So you will not be dropping out? I think the question

:32:35.:32:41.

is, people will see, looking at our hustings, which are happening

:32:42.:32:44.

tomorrow in London and then in Wales, two more next week, they will

:32:45.:32:47.

feed the breadth of vision and talent that there is in this party.

:32:48.:32:49.

Peter Whittle, thank you. How should the UK control

:32:50.:32:52.

immigration once we've left the EU? The official Vote Leave campaign

:32:53.:32:59.

argued for an Australian-style points-based system -

:33:00.:33:01.

but that's been ruled Others have suggested a new regime

:33:02.:33:03.

of work permits. My next guest has produced his own

:33:04.:33:06.

plan, which could include continuing freedom of movement for some

:33:07.:33:09.

categories of worker. Here's Sunder Katwala,

:33:10.:33:13.

director of the non-partisan think Sometimes, you sit down

:33:14.:33:15.

in a restaurant, starving hungry, but they've got nothing that

:33:16.:33:35.

sounds very appetising. When it comes to Brexit, the fixed

:33:36.:33:39.

menu seems very narrow indeed. Most of us would like a good trade

:33:40.:33:45.

deal with Europe for British business, but that always comes

:33:46.:33:48.

served with a liberal helping of free movement, which isn't

:33:49.:33:51.

to everyone's taste. And it seems the only alternative

:33:52.:33:53.

is thin gruel, the hardest, The first rule is, don't

:33:54.:33:55.

be rude to the waiter. But you also need an idea

:33:56.:34:07.

of what you want the kitchen If we can't reach a deal

:34:08.:34:12.

by the time the Article 50 clock runs out in 2019,

:34:13.:34:17.

that will count as a The logical outcome for immigration

:34:18.:34:20.

is that we would then apply the same rules for Europeans

:34:21.:34:25.

as we do for outside the EU. But we could make Europe a much more

:34:26.:34:29.

attractive offer than that, one that gives us the control over

:34:30.:34:35.

immigration that the public want, but is appealing enough to the EU

:34:36.:34:39.

that we can still get A new system could still offer

:34:40.:34:42.

preferential treatment Above a certain skill

:34:43.:34:53.

level, we could keep free People don't want fewer engineers

:34:54.:34:57.

or scientists to come. We also need some low-skilled

:34:58.:35:08.

migration too, to pick fruit But here, the public do

:35:09.:35:10.

want to control the scale So let's have quotas for low-skilled

:35:11.:35:14.

work based on what our economy needs, and offer those places

:35:15.:35:19.

to Europeans first as part Britain would get control over

:35:20.:35:22.

the pace of migration, but it's also an attractive offer

:35:23.:35:26.

to the EU and its workers too, certainly more so than if we don't

:35:27.:35:31.

get any deal at all. And if Europe says "non",

:35:32.:35:36.

we can always try another restaurant and offer a similar

:35:37.:35:38.

trade and migration deal with North American,

:35:39.:35:41.

Australian, Indian But we all know that Europe's got

:35:42.:35:43.

great food, so let's see what the Brussels

:35:44.:35:49.

chefs say first. Penny, Cuba on the Vote Leave side

:35:50.:36:07.

in the referendum campaign. We are going to continue to need skilled

:36:08.:36:11.

and unskilled Labour in the British economy after we finally leave the

:36:12.:36:15.

EU so, in your mind, what a quota for unskilled workers make sense?

:36:16.:36:21.

I'm not going to, as I said earlier, showed the Government's hand in

:36:22.:36:25.

terms of what it is going to be negotiating gone, but what I do

:36:26.:36:29.

think is important is that we get back full control. It was one of the

:36:30.:36:34.

key issues in the referendum campaign, and they tweaked something

:36:35.:36:39.

that quite a lot of politicians didn't figure out which was that

:36:40.:36:43.

unless you can control immigration you cannot govern properly or

:36:44.:36:48.

planned services. Control is one thing, control on immigration, to be

:36:49.:36:53.

able to choose the number and the sorts of migrant workers you would

:36:54.:36:57.

like he is not the same as just bringing down the numbers

:36:58.:37:01.

dramatically, the two are not mutually exclusive, so would you at

:37:02.:37:05.

least consider the idea of a quota for a number of unskilled workers to

:37:06.:37:09.

do some of the jobs that British workers have not come up until now,

:37:10.:37:21.

wanted to do? I think a range of issues will be looked at, the only

:37:22.:37:24.

thing that has been ruled out if the points system approach that

:37:25.:37:26.

Australia have taken. But this is a key issue in terms of the

:37:27.:37:28.

negotiations, and the Government isn't going to reveal its hand. That

:37:29.:37:33.

really was the nub of the referendum result, the message that came

:37:34.:37:37.

through loud and clear was, we want to do something about immigration. I

:37:38.:37:41.

think what we know is the public have lost confidence in how the

:37:42.:37:44.

Government has been handling immigration in this country in the

:37:45.:37:47.

last ten or 15 years, there were not the right preparations for the scale

:37:48.:37:50.

of immigration we have had and we have that promises to cut levels

:37:51.:37:54.

that have not been possible so people want especially some control

:37:55.:37:55.

over the scale and pace of unskilled immigration while at the

:37:56.:38:11.

same time they are positive about the contribution immigration can

:38:12.:38:13.

make to this country if it is better managed and controlled. You talk

:38:14.:38:16.

about quotas, how big would that be for unskilled workers? Our proposal

:38:17.:38:19.

is that we would have skilled free movement at levels people were happy

:38:20.:38:22.

about and would decide on an annual basis, something like the budget,

:38:23.:38:29.

talk to the health service, employers, people worried about the

:38:30.:38:32.

impact on communities, the Home Secretary comes to the house, set

:38:33.:38:37.

the quota and we agree what it is. Under the system Europeans would

:38:38.:38:39.

have access to the low skilled work before other people did if we made

:38:40.:38:44.

the deal with Europe. But it would be just another arbitrary number in

:38:45.:38:47.

the way the Government has set in the last Parliament and this

:38:48.:38:50.

Parliament and number to bring down net migration to tens of thousands,

:38:51.:38:55.

which it has consistently failed to do? Something went wrong with that

:38:56.:38:58.

target, which was not possible to meet, which was that the number came

:38:59.:39:02.

first as a sound bite and people scrambled around for policies to

:39:03.:39:11.

meet it and there were none to meet it while we were in the EU. If we

:39:12.:39:14.

have a process on, what other pressures on migration that create

:39:15.:39:16.

reductions, what are the needs for migration, how do we get the

:39:17.:39:19.

balance, you can set the number according to the feeling on the

:39:20.:39:22.

ground in economic sectors, in local areas, about how to match the

:39:23.:39:26.

pressures and gains of immigration, set the number with worked out

:39:27.:39:32.

policy. What about Labour's policy? Am I right in thinking there is not

:39:33.:39:37.

a policy in terms of setting any numbers on net migration or

:39:38.:39:42.

immigration? What we want to do is have a national conversation about

:39:43.:39:46.

immigration and what that means. We have had a national conversation! We

:39:47.:39:51.

had a general election in 2015 and then a referendum debate. The

:39:52.:39:54.

general election covered a host of things and the only question as I

:39:55.:39:58.

understand in the referendum was, do you want to be in Europe or out?

:39:59.:40:05.

There was a really complex result in terms of our understanding of the

:40:06.:40:08.

result and we need to have a more detailed understanding of what that

:40:09.:40:12.

means. As has been pointed out already, our care service, one in

:40:13.:40:16.

five care workers come from overseas, also our NHS staff, we

:40:17.:40:21.

would collapse without those skilled workers but also the less skilled.

:40:22.:40:25.

So you don't want to control the numbers in any way? I said we need

:40:26.:40:30.

to have a national conversation. But that does not answer the question,

:40:31.:40:34.

do you or don't you want to control the numbers? What we want, we need

:40:35.:40:44.

to recognise what migration does and how it supports and enables our

:40:45.:40:50.

economy, so we know there is an net benefit... People rejected that if

:40:51.:40:53.

you interpret the referendum result in that way? What was the question?

:40:54.:41:00.

They said they wanted control... No, they didn't, they said they wanted

:41:01.:41:04.

to be out of Europe and it is complex to understand why they

:41:05.:41:08.

wanted to leave, even in areas where there is no migration, people voted

:41:09.:41:11.

to leave. There are parts of the country where there were very low

:41:12.:41:15.

levels of immigration and they still voted to leave. I think there were

:41:16.:41:18.

many reasons why people voted to leave, for some it was about

:41:19.:41:22.

sovereignty, all sorts of other issues, but I think we are kidding

:41:23.:41:26.

ourselves if we don't accept that immigration was a major part. Excuse

:41:27.:41:32.

me for bringing this back to the Green paper today, there is an

:41:33.:41:35.

element of the Green paper that looks at this, one thing I am

:41:36.:41:38.

conscious of his opportunities to work overseas that disabled people

:41:39.:41:45.

have, even work experience, quite often they are not able to take them

:41:46.:41:50.

up because our support is not flexible enough to do that, so there

:41:51.:41:55.

is a lot we can do in this space for our own citizens. Do you think

:41:56.:41:58.

voters that were concerned with immigration are wrong? No, I

:41:59.:42:02.

understand, area such as Lincolnshire where there has been a

:42:03.:42:08.

real influx of migrants to support our agricultural industry, pressures

:42:09.:42:11.

have been put on local services. At the same time, those local services

:42:12.:42:16.

have been cut by this Government. Do you think British workers will get

:42:17.:42:20.

out into the field and help the seasonal fruit picking instead? I

:42:21.:42:24.

think we need to look at what, different areas need different

:42:25.:42:28.

things, so for example the Government cut the migrant fund and

:42:29.:42:34.

that needs to be reintroduced, we also need to make sure employment

:42:35.:42:36.

agencies don't undercut when they recruit from abroad, undercutting

:42:37.:42:44.

local Labour. There is evidence in terms of how successfully we can

:42:45.:42:48.

integrate communities into different areas, and that hasn't happened

:42:49.:42:52.

either. Some of the Labour MPs in the North have a very different view

:42:53.:42:56.

on immigration and they do think that something should be done about

:42:57.:43:00.

the numbers, even Keir Starmer in Shadow Cabinet said something has to

:43:01.:43:02.

be done about immigration. Is he wrong? No, he's not, he said

:43:03.:43:09.

something has to be done about immigration... He meant bringing

:43:10.:43:14.

down the numbers. It is about how we make sure the economy is supported

:43:15.:43:18.

by migration but also make sure communities are not put under

:43:19.:43:21.

pressure and there are ways that we can do that which has not happened

:43:22.:43:25.

unfortunately in the last few years. How confident are you that both

:43:26.:43:28.

parties but particularly the Government will take on all consider

:43:29.:43:31.

the sort of scheme you have put forward? I think there is potential

:43:32.:43:36.

pragmatic consensus here, both sides have said something important about

:43:37.:43:41.

control on the pace and scale of immigration, openness to the

:43:42.:43:44.

immigration that allows us to get a good deal, so we think a good deal

:43:45.:43:48.

could converge around this proposal. We have heard a lot about red lines

:43:49.:43:52.

on deals people don't want, if we are going to have a sharper debate

:43:53.:43:56.

we have got to hear ideas about practical proposals that we could

:43:57.:43:59.

put on the table and that would be attractive to a consensus in Britain

:44:00.:44:11.

and that I think is a better deal for Europe than we will get it we

:44:12.:44:14.

have a failure on both sides and no deal at all. Are you working closely

:44:15.:44:16.

with ministers? We will speak to ministers on all sides, there are

:44:17.:44:18.

pragmatic voices will remain that will have to come up with a real

:44:19.:44:22.

policy that works for the 52% and the 48%. When do you think the Prime

:44:23.:44:27.

Minister will be able to deliver on her pledge for net migration in the

:44:28.:44:31.

tens of thousands? Ultimately I think that will happen after we

:44:32.:44:38.

leave the EU. So in 2019? We will have to see what system is put in

:44:39.:44:42.

place and precisely what I think needs to happen is the focus on what

:44:43.:44:46.

the economy needs, what skills we need, how many people we need, and

:44:47.:44:50.

that will determine the numbers, that it will... But it will be after

:44:51.:44:55.

the EU that we will get back for control? Thank you.

:44:56.:44:58.

Now let's have a look at what else is coming up this week.

:44:59.:45:01.

The Shadow Brexit Secretary Keir Starmer is hoping to ask

:45:02.:45:03.

an urgent question in the Commons this afternoon about

:45:04.:45:05.

The Japanese car giant announced last Thursday that they would build

:45:06.:45:09.

two new models at their Sunderland factory after receiving "assurances"

:45:10.:45:11.

Labour MP Keith Vaz could have his entry onto the Justice Committee

:45:12.:45:15.

The Conservative MP Andrew Bridgen will try and trigger a Commons vote

:45:16.:45:23.

Keith Vaz resigned as chairman of the Home Affairs Committee last

:45:24.:45:27.

month after newspaper allegations that he had paid

:45:28.:45:29.

On Wednesday, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn will face

:45:30.:45:35.

As always, we'll broadcast the session in full here

:45:36.:45:39.

Later that day, around 70 Labour MPs will launch a centre-left group

:45:40.:45:44.

The MPs behind it say their aim is to help the party produce

:45:45.:45:53.

On Thursday, the Bank of England Governor Mark Carney

:45:54.:45:57.

will deliver the quarterly inflation report.

:45:58.:45:58.

That's the Bank's verdict on how the British economy is performing.

:45:59.:46:02.

It's thought that Mark Carney could use the opportunity to end

:46:03.:46:06.

speculation about whether he will continue in the job

:46:07.:46:08.

Joining me from outside on College Green are the deputy

:46:09.:46:15.

political editor Jason Groves and Martha Gill, who writes

:46:16.:46:17.

Jason Groves, what do you think Mark Carney will do? I think he will

:46:18.:46:31.

stay. He is telling friends he wants to stay and although we understand

:46:32.:46:36.

that he has personal reasons for possibly wanting to return to

:46:37.:46:40.

Canada, he is in a job that pays him a lot of money and he says he wants

:46:41.:46:44.

to see Brexit through. In many ways, he is a lucky man to be able to make

:46:45.:46:50.

his own decision. There are quite a few in government who would be happy

:46:51.:46:54.

to see the back of him. But at this moment, there is a feeling that it

:46:55.:46:57.

might spook the markets for him to go. I think he will stay. Martha,

:46:58.:47:02.

how much fuss will there be from the Tory MPs who have felt Mark Carney

:47:03.:47:07.

overstepped the mark in the EU referendum? Will they make a fuss if

:47:08.:47:12.

he stays? Probably, but if he goes, they will make even more fuss. They

:47:13.:47:16.

will use it as an opportunity to jump on these accusations that he

:47:17.:47:24.

torched the economy down and made incorrect calls before Brexit. If he

:47:25.:47:28.

went, it would certainly cause uncertainty in the markets, adding

:47:29.:47:34.

to the stress caused by Brexit. Let's talk about Nissan and those

:47:35.:47:40.

assurances. A letter was enough to persuade Nissan to continue

:47:41.:47:43.

investing in the north-east. What was promised, do you think? We got a

:47:44.:47:48.

good outline of what was promised from Greg Clark yesterday. There

:47:49.:47:51.

were three areas where the government offered the kind of

:47:52.:47:53.

grants you might expect a government to offer any big business,

:47:54.:47:58.

investing, training and research. Then there was this extra area where

:47:59.:48:05.

the real political debate is now, in that he has offered them an

:48:06.:48:09.

assurance that they can continue trading without tariffs and without

:48:10.:48:11.

bureaucratic impediments. Nobody quite knows what that means. We

:48:12.:48:17.

don't know who is applies to. Interestingly, the letter doesn't

:48:18.:48:20.

say what happens if the government can't deliver that. At the moment,

:48:21.:48:24.

they can't guarantee it. Negotiations with Brussels haven't

:48:25.:48:27.

even started, and we are already making promises about the outcome.

:48:28.:48:33.

Presumably, if that cannot be upheld, the idea of no tariffs being

:48:34.:48:37.

put on car-makers like Nissan, there would have to be compensation which

:48:38.:48:43.

would be taxpayer funded. That is the key question. That is what I

:48:44.:48:46.

suspect Keir Starmer, the shadow Brexit secretary, will be grilling

:48:47.:48:54.

Greg Clark on today. I suspect he will also be interested in whether

:48:55.:48:58.

there are sector by sector deals, because Greg Clark was only talking

:48:59.:49:05.

about the car industry yesterday. It would be extraordinary for the

:49:06.:49:07.

government to monitor deals sector by sector. I suspect Keir Starmer

:49:08.:49:13.

will want to find out whether all of Britain's other key industries will

:49:14.:49:16.

get the same kind of deals that the car industry seems to be getting. We

:49:17.:49:20.

will be listening to Business Secretary Greg Clark when he talks

:49:21.:49:24.

about these things. Let's move onto Keith Vaz, the Labour MP currently

:49:25.:49:29.

under investigation. This issue has been raised by Andrew Bridge, the

:49:30.:49:33.

Conservative MP, because Keith Vaz wants to take his place on the

:49:34.:49:36.

Justice committee. Is he going to get anywhere with his opposition?

:49:37.:49:42.

Well, Andrew tells me he has secured a vote in the Commons tonight. We

:49:43.:49:45.

will have to see what the numbers are. It is an unusual situation. For

:49:46.:49:52.

a lot of members of the public, they will be surprised that a man in

:49:53.:49:56.

Keith Vaz's position is going for a seat on the Justice committee at

:49:57.:49:58.

this time when he has all this hanging over him. He has had to step

:49:59.:50:02.

down from the home affairs committee. I suspect if he had been

:50:03.:50:05.

on the Justice committee, he would have had to step back from that. It

:50:06.:50:09.

is extraordinary that he is going for this. My gut feeling is that he

:50:10.:50:13.

will get on. But we will have to wait and see. Martha Gill, what do

:50:14.:50:22.

you think will happen? I agree. These things tend to go through

:50:23.:50:27.

smoothly. It would be unusual for it to be blocked at this stage, but it

:50:28.:50:31.

is also unusual for somebody involved in ongoing investigations

:50:32.:50:37.

like Keith Vaz to get onto such a prestigious select committee. We

:50:38.:50:39.

will see. Thank you both very much. As we've just been discussing,

:50:40.:50:44.

Labour have secured what's known as an "urgent question" in the House

:50:45.:50:47.

of Commons this afternoon to discuss the detail

:50:48.:50:49.

of assurances given to Nissan by the Business Secretary Greg

:50:50.:50:52.

Clark, which led to the car manufacturer committing to continue

:50:53.:50:54.

production of its cars It's of no interest for there

:50:55.:50:56.

to be tariff barriers to the Continent and vice versa,

:50:57.:51:03.

so I said that our objective would be to ensure that we have

:51:04.:51:07.

continued access to the markets without tariffs and without

:51:08.:51:11.

bureaucratic impediments. And that is how we will approach

:51:12.:51:13.

those negotiations. Should he just publish the letter? I

:51:14.:51:32.

don't think so, but he has been open about the discussions he has had

:51:33.:51:37.

with Nissan and I am sure he will say more in the meeting later today.

:51:38.:51:42.

This is quite normal, and it would be weird if a business didn't use

:51:43.:51:51.

Brexit as a way of furthering its own aims. Unsuccessfully in the case

:51:52.:51:58.

of Nissan. Other car-makers will be saying, are we going to get the same

:51:59.:52:07.

deal? We want to reassure any company that is periodically

:52:08.:52:12.

reviewing staying in the UK or relocating that it is best investing

:52:13.:52:18.

here. Of course, but what has been dangled in front of Nissan to make

:52:19.:52:23.

them stay? Reports have said they were considering leaving, so what

:52:24.:52:26.

did the government promise and will the taxpayer have to pay? This is

:52:27.:52:32.

really about ensuring that business has confidence in this government.

:52:33.:52:41.

Is this a good idea, to do sector by sector deals, where you could have

:52:42.:52:46.

free trade agreements for the car industry, for example, to ensure

:52:47.:52:51.

that companies like Nissan stay put? We want to see the detail of that.

:52:52.:52:57.

But is it a good idea? I am not sure, because I have not seen the

:52:58.:53:04.

detail. By publishing the letter, we get an opportunity to analyse

:53:05.:53:08.

whether it was a good idea or not. Well, he has said quite a lot. He

:53:09.:53:12.

said there would not be tariffs placed on goods. Is that an

:53:13.:53:20.

assurance enough for you? There was an interview last night from the

:53:21.:53:25.

boss of Nissan which was implying something slightly different. Let's

:53:26.:53:29.

take Greg Clark at his word that there would not be any tariffs that

:53:30.:53:33.

would be put on car manufacturers when exporting. Would that be a good

:53:34.:53:40.

deal? Obviously, we want to make sure that companies in the UK can

:53:41.:53:45.

trade as freely as possible with Europe. But we need to see the

:53:46.:53:53.

detail. If Nissan are now getting a sweetener through the taxpayer, why

:53:54.:53:57.

couldn't we provide it to another business? This sweetener might be

:53:58.:54:04.

that in the end, if we can't keep that assurance of error free trade,

:54:05.:54:10.

we will compensate you. Would that be all right for the government said

:54:11.:54:15.

taxpayers will fund compensation if we cannot keep our promise of tariff

:54:16.:54:21.

free trade? Greg Clark has been quite straightforward in his

:54:22.:54:26.

interview yesterday. We don't know about that. Well, he did say there

:54:27.:54:32.

was not money dangled in order to secure them remaining in the UK. As

:54:33.:54:40.

you would expect from someone who supported the Leave camp, I think

:54:41.:54:46.

common sense will prevail. I think businesses in Europe will want to

:54:47.:54:49.

trade with us as we do with them. And some of the obstacles that are

:54:50.:54:54.

being floated will not come to pass. Let's see what happens.

:54:55.:54:56.

So, ever wanted to keep track of how your MP has been

:54:57.:54:59.

Whether they toe the party line, or are a serial rebel?

:55:00.:55:03.

It's all information that's recorded, but now, thanks

:55:04.:55:04.

to a new app launched by Parliament called Commons Vote,

:55:05.:55:07.

you can get hold of it almost immediately

:55:08.:55:09.

Ellie has been looking at how it all works.

:55:10.:55:14.

It's what happens when the Speaker needs MPs

:55:15.:55:17.

And this bell rings to let everyone know.

:55:18.:55:25.

If I wanted to vote against whatever was being proposed, I would get up

:55:26.:55:30.

out of the chamber and head to the no lobby, which is that way.

:55:31.:55:36.

If I wanted to vote in favour, I'd go that way to the ayes.

:55:37.:55:42.

Once a vote or division is called, MPs have eight minutes

:55:43.:55:45.

to get from the chamber or wherever they are.

:55:46.:55:49.

Then I would get to the desks here and work out which queue

:55:50.:55:52.

But things recently have changed, so what's different?

:55:53.:56:06.

Until earlier this year, members' names were recorded

:56:07.:56:08.

on pen and paper and when they came through,

:56:09.:56:10.

a clerk recorded their name with a marker pen.

:56:11.:56:13.

Now we've changed to a system of recording names by tablet device,

:56:14.:56:16.

we have the data in a digital format.

:56:17.:56:19.

So it's quite a traditional process, with a modern twist.

:56:20.:56:22.

Everything else has stayed the same as for many decades.

:56:23.:56:25.

Members still walk through the lobbies,

:56:26.:56:27.

but the way we record votes has changed.

:56:28.:56:30.

And that's useful for the clever technical people, who've come up

:56:31.:56:33.

So we have a nice copy of Hansard, how it was traditionally recorded.

:56:34.:56:47.

We've got a list of all the votes and we can scroll through them,

:56:48.:56:53.

have a look at what has gone on in the past.

:56:54.:56:55.

And we can see that there were 195 ayes and 280 noes.

:56:56.:56:58.

If you choose the noes, you can get a list of all those

:56:59.:57:01.

We can also look at all the members, so you can scroll through

:57:02.:57:06.

or search for their name, and we can choose a member.

:57:07.:57:08.

If we choose Luciana Berger, we can see how she has voted

:57:09.:57:11.

in every division, and you get the count of the division as well,

:57:12.:57:14.

so you can quickly see what side she was on.

:57:15.:57:17.

Everything that goes on in parliament will continue

:57:18.:57:19.

It just means you can get the information on the move.

:57:20.:57:23.

I can see how that will help us journalists. Will you get more

:57:24.:57:35.

hassle from your constituency and voters if they think you haven't

:57:36.:57:39.

voted the way you should? I think anything that helps voters to know

:57:40.:57:43.

what is going on and about the process is a good thing. It would

:57:44.:57:47.

just mean they get it a little quicker than they have in the past.

:57:48.:57:52.

Is this part of the attempt at modernisation processes in the

:57:53.:57:57.

Commons? About time. I think it will be great. Constituents want to know

:57:58.:58:00.

the information. I can get it quicker. I like the idea of them

:58:01.:58:05.

wandering around with their apps. There's just time before we go

:58:06.:58:08.

to find out the answer to our quiz. B) Ed Balls' mad

:58:09.:58:12.

professor on Strictly? C) The wails of former

:58:13.:58:20.

Prime Minister Viscount Goderich - known as the "Blubberer"

:58:21.:58:23.

for his tendency to cry while in office, or d) The feline

:58:24.:58:25.

ghost of former chief mouser, So Debbie and Penny,

:58:26.:58:28.

what's the correct answer? I am going to go for the cigar

:58:29.:58:37.

smoker. I will go for the cigar smoke as well. You are both right,

:58:38.:58:42.

although I think we may have shown the picture too early! It is the

:58:43.:58:45.

cigar smoke, not Ed Balls. Thanks, Penny, Debbie

:58:46.:58:46.

and all my guests. The One O'Clock News is starting

:58:47.:58:51.

over on BBC One now. I'll be here at noon tomorrow

:58:52.:58:54.

with all the big political to commemorate the Africans

:58:55.:59:06.

who were here.

:59:07.:59:09.

Jo Coburn is joined by work and pensions minister Penny Mordaunt and shadow work and pensions secretary Debbie Abrahams. They discuss the government's plans for welfare reform and claims around the official NHS spending figures.

There is also the latest on the Ukip leadership campaign as the nomination period ends.


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