01/11/2016 Daily Politics


01/11/2016

Jo Coburn is joined by Martin Lewis to discuss personal finances and whether unpaid internships should be banned. There is also an interview with playwright Alistair Beaton.


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Transcript


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brighter on Thursday. Have a good day.

:00:37.:00:57.

We look at a new app designed to shine a light

:00:58.:01:18.

All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole programme

:01:19.:01:29.

otherwise known as the Money Saving Expert.

:01:30.:01:32.

First today, the Chancellor Philip Hammond,

:01:33.:01:38.

says the UK will "strike back"

:01:39.:01:40.

if it comes under cyber attack, as he details

:01:41.:01:42.

the Government's new cyber-defence strategy.

:01:43.:01:43.

The plan, which is underpinned by nearly ?2 billion of funding,

:01:44.:01:48.

is aimed at bolstering existing defences,

:01:49.:01:53.

but also involves significant investment

:01:54.:01:58.

in "taking the fight to those who threaten Britain".

:01:59.:02:00.

It comes as the head of MI5, Andrew Parker, tells the Guardian

:02:01.:02:03.

newspaper of the growing threat posed by Russia

:02:04.:02:05.

Should we be treating this as seriously as terrace, cyber attacks?

:02:06.:02:18.

Well, not because of the loss of life, but terrorism is often about

:02:19.:02:21.

making people panic and causing things to shut down and economic

:02:22.:02:26.

attack. And cyber terror is and does exactly that and can be incredibly

:02:27.:02:29.

damaging. ?2 billion is relatively small potatoes on the potential

:02:30.:02:35.

impact. A decade ago, I had our first simulation on the website and

:02:36.:02:43.

we were shut down for three days. We were waiting for a ransom, because

:02:44.:02:47.

this is common. When people get a virus on their computer, that virus

:02:48.:02:52.

may not be looking to damage you, it may be used so that it can then

:02:53.:02:59.

freeze a website or country. So be prepared for this is important. And

:03:00.:03:02.

there is more going on than people expect. When you suffer a big attack

:03:03.:03:09.

my run a top 100 UK website and when you suffer an attack, you have a

:03:10.:03:12.

decision to make. Do you tell users, which is good for transparency? That

:03:13.:03:20.

is the way I operate. But you are admitting there was a hole in your

:03:21.:03:23.

differences and people are coming in to try and suck the dater or leak

:03:24.:03:26.

out your payment details, which we don't have, but if you had them,

:03:27.:03:31.

trying to keep it quiet can be damage prevention. So a lot of these

:03:32.:03:35.

things go on in the background that people never hear about. So you

:03:36.:03:39.

think it is more widespread? The head of TalkTalk admitted that it

:03:40.:03:45.

happened to her, which was welcomed. But she did that quite late and I

:03:46.:03:49.

think she got caught between a rock and a hard place. She was not early

:03:50.:03:52.

enough to appease the public, and she was a bit too late. This is

:03:53.:04:00.

really big, and it is going to continue. It is not just about

:04:01.:04:09.

terrorism. There are teenagers thinking this is interesting. Isn't

:04:10.:04:15.

that the point? The head of MI5 and Philip Hammond are implying that the

:04:16.:04:19.

threat is Russia and that that is where the big threat to our cyber

:04:20.:04:23.

security comes from but actually, a lot of cyber attacks are done by

:04:24.:04:28.

individuals in their bedrooms. Individuals or organised crimes. The

:04:29.:04:38.

first time we were attacked, this was early days. Nobody can access

:04:39.:04:48.

your website. You end up paying large amounts of money. Thankfully,

:04:49.:04:54.

we have better defences these days. Don't attack is, we are a consumer

:04:55.:04:59.

service website. But there is not much you can do unless your national

:05:00.:05:03.

infrastructure works, so to protect our economy and to protect the big

:05:04.:05:06.

in situations of state and to protect our military, you need

:05:07.:05:10.

people who are good at this. When it happens to you, as it happened to

:05:11.:05:14.

me, the institutions and the police were useless. They didn't have the

:05:15.:05:19.

resources in place, so it needs to be looked at. ?1.9 billion is being

:05:20.:05:23.

dedicated to it. We will see if it is enough.

:05:24.:05:24.

playwright Alistair Beaton has teamed up

:05:25.:05:29.

with Yes Minister creator Jonathan Lynn to write a new play.

:05:30.:05:32.

But which political relationship does it explore?

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Was it a) Nigel Farage and Douglas Carswell

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b) The Three Brexiteers - Liam Fox, David Davies

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c) Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott

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or d) Larry and Palmerston the cat.

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Martin Lewis will give us the correct answer.

:05:49.:05:52.

Now, if you'd taken a pound out of your pocket

:05:53.:05:54.

on the eve of the EU referendum, it would have bought you

:05:55.:05:57.

But almost as soon as the first results were in,

:05:58.:06:06.

the value of sterling plunged -

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and it has continued declining since.

:06:09.:06:09.

It's now down by roughly 17% since 23rd June.

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But who are the winners and losers from a cheaper pound?

:06:12.:06:14.

of all 150 currencies tracked by Bloomberg in October.

:06:15.:06:17.

At 10am this morning, the pound was 1.22 against the dollar

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The falling pound has been a boost in the short term for UK firms

:06:21.:06:29.

The FTSE 100 reached a record high in October,

:06:30.:06:34.

as the profits of many international companies

:06:35.:06:35.

are worth more when converted into sterling.

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A cheaper pound has also made UK goods more competitive -

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export volumes grew at their fastest pace for two and a half years

:06:51.:06:53.

It also makes it more expensive, however, for British consumers

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buying imported goods, which could push up prices.

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Inflation is rising at its highest rate for two years,

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The Office of National Statistics, however, cautioned against

:07:05.:07:09.

linking this too explicitly with the fall in sterling.

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The supermarket Morrisons has already increased the cost of a jar

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while the chief executive of Typhoo Tea suggested last week

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that the price of a cuppa could also go up.

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And what are the prospects for tourism?

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a more attractive holiday destination for visitors

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from overseas, but British tourists will find breaks to Europe and

:07:36.:07:38.

Here with me to discuss this further with Martin Lewis

:07:39.:07:43.

are the Labour MP Stephen Kinnock and Gerard Lyons,

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chief economic advisor at the Policy Exchange think tank.

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Gerard Lyons, a good thing or a bad thing, the fall in sterling? It is a

:07:54.:08:00.

good thing, but there are winners and losers. It should be stressed

:08:01.:08:04.

that at some stage, the pound was going to fall whatever the outcome

:08:05.:08:07.

of the referendum. The UK has a large current account deficit. We

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also need to remember that this is not the first time the pound has

:08:12.:08:15.

fallen. After the financial crisis, the pound fell by almost a quarter.

:08:16.:08:21.

So we have seen it before, and it is good in the sense that it is a

:08:22.:08:24.

competitive boost to the economy. The downside is that it will feed a

:08:25.:08:30.

pick-up in inflation which is likely to be temporary over the next year.

:08:31.:08:34.

But is there an issue about the speed at which the pound has fallen?

:08:35.:08:38.

I take your point that it can be a good thing and that it was

:08:39.:08:42.

overvalued, but the speed of that decline, is that something to be

:08:43.:08:46.

worried about? Last month, it fell by 6% overnight to a 31 year low.

:08:47.:08:51.

Doesn't that suggest a lack of faith in the British economy? It could

:08:52.:08:55.

suggest that, but it is more likely to reflect the fact that the pound

:08:56.:08:59.

was overvalued for some time. Even the International Monetary Fund,

:09:00.:09:04.

often cited as an independent group even though they were too

:09:05.:09:06.

pessimistic, they have said that the pound is overvalued by ten to 20%.

:09:07.:09:13.

The thing about the pace of the decline, in the past when

:09:14.:09:16.

governments have intervened to stop a falling currency, that has created

:09:17.:09:22.

problems. This time, it has been sensible for the authorities to

:09:23.:09:25.

stand back and let the currency fund its true level. At some stage, this

:09:26.:09:29.

will help the rebalancing of the economy in terms of interest rates

:09:30.:09:32.

eventually going higher even though for the moment, given where the

:09:33.:09:37.

economy is, interest rates need to stay low. Do you agree that the

:09:38.:09:42.

pound was overvalued and that the result of the referendum may have

:09:43.:09:44.

played a part but it was not the whole story? What is worrying is

:09:45.:09:48.

where the pound has fallen off the edge of a cliff. If you look at

:09:49.:09:55.

Black Wednesday in 1992, the pound only devalued 4%. Since the 23rd of

:09:56.:10:00.

June, the pound has devalued 15%. But was that because it was

:10:01.:10:06.

overvalued? We need to ensure we have the pound valued at one level,

:10:07.:10:12.

in a managed sense. I am also concerned about inflation hitting

:10:13.:10:15.

the poorest in our society hardest. They are the people spending on

:10:16.:10:18.

goods that are most affected by inflation. This will contribute even

:10:19.:10:25.

more to the deeply unfair nature of the British economy. But do you

:10:26.:10:29.

think the fall in the pound has been the trigger to higher inflation?

:10:30.:10:33.

There is no doubt that there is a connection between the fall in the

:10:34.:10:37.

pound and high inflation, because British companies are having to pay

:10:38.:10:43.

more to bring goods in. That is particularly the case with the

:10:44.:10:47.

Marmite. Do you agree that there is a link between the two? The pick-up

:10:48.:10:52.

with inflation recently is because of events before the pound fell, but

:10:53.:10:58.

the weaker pound will lead to higher inflation in the next six to 12

:10:59.:11:01.

months. But we have seen this before. In 2008, the pound fell

:11:02.:11:06.

sharply and inflation picked up and profit margins were squeezed. Some

:11:07.:11:11.

of that hit people across society, and then we saw inflation subdued

:11:12.:11:15.

again. We need to put this in perspective. It is not a permanent

:11:16.:11:22.

pick-up in inflation. But because we have had this before, that does not

:11:23.:11:25.

mean it is a good thing. It means prices will rise, particularly the

:11:26.:11:31.

prices of basic goods, which will hit those who are less well off. We

:11:32.:11:36.

do live in a world economy. Food and energy prices have been relatively

:11:37.:11:40.

low. Even without the pound falling, we would have seen a pick-up in

:11:41.:11:44.

energy prices because of higher oil prices. We need to put into context

:11:45.:11:49.

that mark Carney, the Governor of the Bank of England, has accepted

:11:50.:11:53.

that this will be a one-off increase in inflation. In 18 months, one

:11:54.:11:56.

might expect inflation to be low again. We need to not panic too

:11:57.:12:03.

much. The economy has still done quite well in terms of economic

:12:04.:12:07.

growth. What has been the response to people who sign up to your

:12:08.:12:12.

website in terms of prices going up? This is about future prices, as

:12:13.:12:16.

opposed to now. We have not seen it coming that heavily, and it worked.

:12:17.:12:21.

We overcomplicate this. If the pound drops, when we buy stuff from

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abroad, that gets more expensive and that feed through into inflation. No

:12:26.:12:30.

one would deny that. The euro rate is about the same as it was three

:12:31.:12:35.

summers ago. It is against the dollar that there has been a real

:12:36.:12:39.

hit. This is of course Brexit. The markets don't like it. So the euro

:12:40.:12:43.

and the pound had gone down and the dollar hasn't to the same extent. In

:12:44.:12:47.

terms of factoring through to prices, there is a big political

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issue coming. I strongly suspect that this winter, for the first time

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since 2013, we will see the big six energy price rises, both because of

:12:59.:13:02.

wholesale prices, and because of the pound's weakness. I guess we will

:13:03.:13:07.

have announcements by the end of January 5% or more rises on energy.

:13:08.:13:11.

That is a big political issue because it focuses the debate

:13:12.:13:16.

heavily on this. It is a solid bill going up in peoples homes, and

:13:17.:13:20.

nobody will like it. That is a big hit. But there are positives from a

:13:21.:13:30.

weaker pound. The UK is incredibly competitive. We are interesting for

:13:31.:13:34.

people looking to put inward investment here like the Chinese.

:13:35.:13:38.

But what about Martin's point about energy prices? When you are talking

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about the positives, that benefits a certain group. But energy costs

:13:44.:13:52.

rising will hit most people. The issue is, one is a direct hit, and

:13:53.:13:56.

telling people the economy may be indirectly boosted does not help

:13:57.:13:59.

people on the ground. Profit margins in the economy are very high. Profit

:14:00.:14:05.

margins before the pound fell five years ago were very high. It depends

:14:06.:14:11.

on the competitive element in those sectors and whether they take

:14:12.:14:16.

advantage of the opportunity to pass on higher prices. There is no doubt

:14:17.:14:20.

that a weaker pound does feeding to higher inflation, but you should not

:14:21.:14:23.

attribute the temporary pick-up in inflation only to the weaker pound.

:14:24.:14:28.

I think we are seeing the tremors. Remember, we haven't even triggered

:14:29.:14:33.

article 50 yet. This is deeply political not just in the UK, but

:14:34.:14:38.

also in the EU. Donald Tusk has said there will be no soft Brexit, there

:14:39.:14:41.

is either a hard Brexit or no Brexit. And that spooks the markets,

:14:42.:14:49.

from the pound to the export markets to our financial services industry,

:14:50.:14:54.

which is already talking about moving thousands of jobs overseas.

:14:55.:14:58.

They have talked about it, and Nissan has just announced that it is

:14:59.:15:02.

actually going to stay. Who knows what the basis of the deal was. The

:15:03.:15:09.

devil is in the detail. But when you talk to people in the financial

:15:10.:15:13.

markets, they have been reassured by the relative political stability we

:15:14.:15:18.

have in the UK. We now need to put those policies into effect, both

:15:19.:15:21.

domestically and terms of the domestic reach and our industrial

:15:22.:15:25.

policy, but also in terms of article 50. Being outside the single market

:15:26.:15:28.

is pretty good for big chunks of this economy.

:15:29.:15:36.

Chevening We delivered a political earthquake on 23rd June. So there is

:15:37.:15:41.

no relative... Let's look at the political stability. You said it is

:15:42.:15:50.

good, Gerard Lyons that there hasn't been Government interference in

:15:51.:15:53.

terms of the value of the pound but you could argue that Theresa May's

:15:54.:15:57.

speech at the Conservative Party conference, that Britain was heading

:15:58.:16:01.

Forestieri a so-called are hard Greggs it, no longer being under the

:16:02.:16:08.

court of justice s that would have... Talking about international

:16:09.:16:13.

investors, the thing that has worried them more than anything else

:16:14.:16:16.

is the comments by the Home Secretary about migration. Even

:16:17.:16:20.

though though whoa need migration, international investments want

:16:21.:16:23.

migration. It is not politic #k8 stability. That issue needs to be

:16:24.:16:26.

clarified. In terms of other things. Because you don't want to see limits

:16:27.:16:30.

on immigration. Looking back to June, the worry was, if we voted to

:16:31.:16:34.

leave we would have three or four months of political inable state. We

:16:35.:16:38.

now have relative political stability, we now have the

:16:39.:16:42.

Chancellor, set in late November to provide an Autumn Statement, to give

:16:43.:16:45.

a boost to the economy. We need to look at the whole context here.

:16:46.:16:50.

There is clearly, as has been mentioned a big change post June

:16:51.:16:54.

23rd, you are trying to imply lots is negative, there are lots of

:16:55.:16:57.

positives. You are putting those positives. But the difference here

:16:58.:17:01.

is who is being affected by what? The broader economy, as Martin Lewis

:17:02.:17:04.

said is not the same as the direct economy to people in their pockets.

:17:05.:17:08.

And people will take a view. Let's look at the City of London, you

:17:09.:17:13.

raise the City of London, saying they are fairly sanguine about what

:17:14.:17:21.

is going on s that your experience? The Chief Executive of the British

:17:22.:17:25.

Bankers' Association, I'm sure who knows what he is talking about, said

:17:26.:17:29.

the finger issing quivering over the relocate button. UBS said they are

:17:30.:17:33.

going to relocate thousands of jobs. This is not just about big bankers

:17:34.:17:38.

in the City of London, there are 1.1 million people employed in the

:17:39.:17:40.

financial services industry, from Edinburgh to Glasgow, to Cardiff, to

:17:41.:17:45.

Leeds. This has systemic impact on the British economy. And you've got

:17:46.:17:49.

Paris and Frankfurt waiting in the wings. We've got to find a deal

:17:50.:17:57.

which gives an equivalence on passporting, if we don't I fear an

:17:58.:18:01.

exodus. I support equivalence on passporting. I think it is

:18:02.:18:05.

important. What the BBA says, I wouldn't hold much weight in that,

:18:06.:18:08.

they tend to talk nonsense in my experience most of the time. We've

:18:09.:18:11.

had enough of experts. They are not experts. They are a trade

:18:12.:18:16.

organisation that tries to talk to all their members... And they are

:18:17.:18:22.

lobbying We can argue that. I think the financial services is a big

:18:23.:18:25.

sweep, investment bank something a small sweep and is a small number of

:18:26.:18:29.

people. They are a big threat to investment banking in the UK but it

:18:30.:18:33.

is not going to go to Europe, it is going to go to New York and that is

:18:34.:18:38.

the real competition out there. But we need to try to protect that

:18:39.:18:41.

industry that's what brings in big tax money. The one thing we have at

:18:42.:18:45.

the moment, I will come to you. We now have the certainty of

:18:46.:18:47.

uncertainty. That's the troou. Nothing has happened. We have had a

:18:48.:18:52.

vote. Sentiment has changed that's T But uncertainty will lead to aing

:18:53.:18:55.

have couple being created, as people will say Inevitably. We know there

:18:56.:18:58.

is going to be change which gives you something you can work on but we

:18:59.:19:04.

don't know what it is. Let's look at the City of London and financial

:19:05.:19:08.

services, would you be prepared to negotiate, you know, access in way

:19:09.:19:12.

to the single market, tariff-free access, a very good deal for certain

:19:13.:19:17.

sectors like the City of London, if it means that those rights are going

:19:18.:19:21.

to be secured? I think, look, how we view the City needs to be seen in

:19:22.:19:26.

context of the whole UK economy, as well as also the fact of the wider

:19:27.:19:30.

European economy. I was at dinner last night with the British bhankers

:19:31.:19:33.

association UPS and others were there. They have been out Chatham

:19:34.:19:39.

House rules, but the gist was a far more positive discussion to the

:19:40.:19:42.

outlook to the sti. One size does not fit all in the City. Are they

:19:43.:19:48.

threatening to pull out, and relocate it Paris, Frankfurt and New

:19:49.:19:52.

York? Financial is glevenlt the competition is London is New York

:19:53.:19:56.

aSingapore. You have not answered my question, would you be prepared for

:19:57.:20:01.

a special deal, would you be prepared for a special deal in erms

:20:02.:20:04.

to have the single market and retaining the sort of access we have

:20:05.:20:10.

now for certain industries? The UK needs to have a clean bricts in

:20:11.:20:13.

terms of sovereignty and migration. So, no And on top, as has been

:20:14.:20:20.

articulated, bespoke deal that suits the EU and UK and out of that, there

:20:21.:20:24.

is no doubt in my mind that London will remain the financial centre.

:20:25.:20:27.

Why are you not more confident about it? I have spent 20 years working in

:20:28.:20:33.

and around the European Union. I'm also looking closely at things like

:20:34.:20:36.

Donald tusk says when he says there'll only be a hard wrecks it.

:20:37.:20:42.

It is not - Brexit. It is not because countries want to punish the

:20:43.:20:47.

UK it is because they have their own realities. We have not to have a

:20:48.:20:51.

gung-ho hubrus and casual approach which seems it fail zwropd stand how

:20:52.:20:55.

the rest of the EU is having to deal with this very complex issue, so the

:20:56.:20:59.

fact of the matter is - you cannot have your cake and eat T we have to

:21:00.:21:04.

find a bespoke deal, yes, but it is not going to be a full continuation

:21:05.:21:08.

of the passporting rights that we currently have which also gives you

:21:09.:21:13.

a seat at the table to shape future regulations. That's the reality. And

:21:14.:21:18.

the banking and financial services industry, 1.1 million jobs across

:21:19.:21:22.

the entire country will take decisions based on strategic

:21:23.:21:25.

importance. To come back to the original question, will the value of

:21:26.:21:30.

the pound fall further? I think eventually the pound will be much

:21:31.:21:33.

stronger. Is it going to fall further now? It depends what happens

:21:34.:21:37.

in the US next week. But the found is firmly valued on many measures.

:21:38.:21:42.

We shouldn't speculate, should we? The pound will either go down, go up

:21:43.:21:47.

or stay the same. All right, we can put a bet on that. Thank you very

:21:48.:21:49.

much. Failing to keep your garden tidy

:21:50.:21:50.

or having a dog who barks excessively could land

:21:51.:21:53.

you with a criminal record under powers introduced by Theresa May

:21:54.:21:55.

when she was Home Secretary. Thousands of so-called

:21:56.:21:58.

Community Protection Notices have been issued by local authorities

:21:59.:22:02.

since they were introduced in 2014. But the campaign group,

:22:03.:22:05.

The Manifesto Club, claims the powers are being abused in some

:22:06.:22:10.

instances and amount We'll speak to them in a moment but,

:22:11.:22:13.

first, here's Theresa May explaining the thinking behind the law

:22:14.:22:18.

change back in 2012. Earlier today I launched our white

:22:19.:22:28.

paper on anti-social behaviour. This new approach he empowers local

:22:29.:22:31.

communities and puts victims' needs at its heart and puts more trust in

:22:32.:22:35.

professionals than ever before. It perfectly compliments our approach

:22:36.:22:38.

to wider, local policing. A lot of what is called anti-social

:22:39.:22:41.

behaviour, of course is actually crime and it should be taken

:22:42.:22:44.

seriously and it should be dealt with. Yet, more than 3 million

:22:45.:22:48.

incidents of anti-social behaviour are still being reported to the

:22:49.:22:52.

police each and every year with many more, doubtless, going unreported.

:22:53.:22:56.

It's clear that the old topdown approach to the problem hasn't

:22:57.:23:00.

worked. It was too bureaucratic, too complex and too time consuming. So

:23:01.:23:05.

we will make powers simpler, I can question, easier to enforce, more

:23:06.:23:08.

flexible and more effective. That was Theresa May as Home Secretary.

:23:09.:23:12.

I'm joined now by Josephine Appleton from the Manifesto Club,

:23:13.:23:14.

and by the Conservative MP Royston Smith, who used to be leader

:23:15.:23:18.

Welcome to both of you. Josephine, first of all, a lot of people would

:23:19.:23:27.

say anti-social behave area blights their lives and councils need more

:23:28.:23:29.

powers to tackle them. Whats' wrong with that? I think it depends what

:23:30.:23:35.

you define as anti-social behaviour. The test for introducing one of

:23:36.:23:39.

these CPNs is incredibly low. It only requires a council official to

:23:40.:23:43.

judge your activity has a detrimental effect on the quality of

:23:44.:23:47.

life in your area and they can write you out a document telling you you

:23:48.:23:51.

must or must not do something, if you break it, it is a criminal

:23:52.:23:54.

offence. It takes the criminal law into unpress departmented areas and

:23:55.:23:57.

really makes the question of what is a crime and what is not a crime

:23:58.:24:01.

extremely subjective. Right. Can you actually paint a picture for us. How

:24:02.:24:06.

many of these community protection notices are being issued and how

:24:07.:24:08.

many are inappropriate, in your view? I mean, the first research we

:24:09.:24:14.

have done is within the first year, there were 4,000 notices issued. And

:24:15.:24:18.

bus the Home Office doesn't actually cope stats on it, it is difficult to

:24:19.:24:22.

work out what they are. But - keep stwats.

:24:23.:24:26.

But the majority seems to be more messy gardens and we received the

:24:27.:24:30.

text of some of the notices and included things dr you must not

:24:31.:24:34.

sleep in bin stores. You must not bus income this town centre. They

:24:35.:24:39.

are really quite broad ranging. Within the home, you must not shout

:24:40.:24:43.

or argue or put your he there vision on, such that can be overheard. I

:24:44.:24:46.

think that the problem is not necessarily councils, but really,

:24:47.:24:49.

the existence of these extremely broad powers in the first place. And

:24:50.:24:53.

where anything is actually serious, there are existing powers that can

:24:54.:24:59.

deal with it. Let me put that to Royston Smith. Those examples,

:25:00.:25:04.

having a messy guard yes, shouting or arguing in your own home, surely

:25:05.:25:09.

they can't come under community protection notice that is should be

:25:10.:25:12.

regarded as a crime. I think she should. Why? When constituents come

:25:13.:25:16.

to see me it is not because someone is hafg a loud conversation at

:25:17.:25:23.

3.00pm it is because they are shouting and screaming at 4.00am,

:25:24.:25:27.

keeping people awake and caution havoc in the area. The bushes are a

:25:28.:25:31.

prime example. Where they are allowed to encroach on to the

:25:32.:25:33.

highway. Partially sighted people walk into them. Mothers with babies

:25:34.:25:40.

can't get past. Council enforce that to make sure they can't do it. The

:25:41.:25:48.

CNN are a tool to enforce that. Is it too heavy handed a tool. One can

:25:49.:25:54.

understand what people complain about in your constituency but is it

:25:55.:25:58.

too heavy handed? I don't think it is. It doesn't first happen that you

:25:59.:26:02.

get a notice. First you get a letter saying you are encroaching on to the

:26:03.:26:06.

highway with your trees or you are shouting or swearing or whatever it

:26:07.:26:09.

is. You get a warning and are told to do something about that. It is

:26:10.:26:13.

not unreasonable. It is checked by environmental health officers and

:26:14.:26:18.

you will at rest. You then have 21 days, to appeal to a magistrate F it

:26:19.:26:22.

was just a child crying, I don't think any magistrate in the country

:26:23.:26:25.

would enforce that. I think there is a mechanism. CPNs. We have spoken to

:26:26.:26:30.

the Local Government Association and they say CPNs offer a quick way, a

:26:31.:26:35.

quick redress, if you like for local residents' concerns and this is

:26:36.:26:38.

ahead, before you get to any criminal prosecution. I think that,

:26:39.:26:43.

these powers are seen as quick, it is not always a good thing, for

:26:44.:26:46.

councils to be able it use powers easily and quickly. It is not a good

:26:47.:26:51.

thing, in my view for an officer to have a bit of paper where they can

:26:52.:26:55.

write in what thing you have to do and if you don't do t then it is a

:26:56.:27:00.

criminal offence. What if you have been disrupting neighbours and the

:27:01.:27:02.

local area where people are living for a long period of time and

:27:03.:27:05.

actually the complapt in the past has been that councils haven't had

:27:06.:27:08.

enough power to deal with people making snois ever Friday and

:27:09.:27:10.

Saturday night, for example. - complaints. Would you not find that

:27:11.:27:13.

disruptive? Of course. Most people have had experience of problems with

:27:14.:27:16.

neighbours. There are statutory nuisance powers, but they set a high

:27:17.:27:22.

test and it is an objective text the definition of statutory nuisance.

:27:23.:27:26.

Detrimental effect, I spoke to people in councils when it was

:27:27.:27:29.

coming through, they said what did it mean, they znth didn't know. I

:27:30.:27:32.

think it is a subjective test that hasn't been through the course. Yes,

:27:33.:27:36.

people have a right to appeal but really the council should have to go

:27:37.:27:40.

to the court before they impose a law on you, rather than require you

:27:41.:27:43.

employ your lawyer to defend yourself after the order has been

:27:44.:27:47.

imposed. You can see a situation where some councils abuse this

:27:48.:27:51.

power. There is a resident in Rotherham who was apparently ordered

:27:52.:27:53.

to clean their windows inside and outside the house this. Would be an

:27:54.:27:57.

extreme, I presume But they were also told to clean up their garden

:27:58.:28:02.

and shrubs, it wasn't one thing in isolation. You think it is

:28:03.:28:07.

appropriate? If they encroach into the high wane partially sighted

:28:08.:28:10.

people are walking into them or mothers with babies have to walk on

:28:11.:28:15.

to the road to get past, yes I think it should. Should they end up with a

:28:16.:28:20.

criminal record, as a result? They would in anyway. So even though, you

:28:21.:28:25.

say Josephine amton there are things in place to deal with them they have

:28:26.:28:29.

been infecty. And Theresa May apparently brought these in because

:28:30.:28:33.

the mechanism under the Labour Government has already too heavy

:28:34.:28:36.

handed. So there are already protections in mranchts I wouldn't

:28:37.:28:39.

say they have been ineffective. I think they are harder to use. Not

:28:40.:28:43.

bad thinking. The example given, obstructing the highway, it is an

:28:44.:28:49.

offence It is an offence to create a statutory nuisance to your

:28:50.:28:51.

neighbours enjoyment of their property. It is an offence. And

:28:52.:28:56.

noise abatement notices. But detrimental effect, has no legal

:28:57.:28:59.

definition, nobody knows what it means. So you have orders, such as

:29:00.:29:05.

currently in an Essex village there are free roaming peacocks, the owner

:29:06.:29:09.

has been issued with an order to remove them within the next two

:29:10.:29:12.

weeks or receive a criminal record. The villagers have set up a petition

:29:13.:29:17.

defending her because they love them. It is not about empowering

:29:18.:29:21.

communities, it is about empowering certain council officers to write on

:29:22.:29:25.

a form what you have to do and what the penalty will be, and that

:29:26.:29:28.

becomes the law. Do you think know need reform in that instance to

:29:29.:29:32.

avoid the case described by Josephine Appleton? I think this

:29:33.:29:36.

piece of work is helpful and helpful to Government. I think Government

:29:37.:29:40.

should look at it and take notice F the process needs to be reformed

:29:41.:29:45.

going forward, these things are helpful. If you tell people they

:29:46.:29:49.

have to get rid of peacocks, it is not what it was set up for. If

:29:50.:29:54.

people are arguing at 4 O'Clockam, night after night, this is what this

:29:55.:29:59.

was for. Do you think it has the usceptibility of being abused, toop

:30:00.:30:03.

blupt an issue, what are the real issues being brought by

:30:04.:30:05.

constituents? This is one of the problems we have in all forms of

:30:06.:30:09.

Government, that this sounds like there is a certain looseness,

:30:10.:30:10.

subjectivity Government, that this sounds like

:30:11.:30:11.

there is a certain looseness, subjectivity and inconsistency that

:30:12.:30:14.

drives people the wall on both sides. Those who want action from it

:30:15.:30:17.

and those on the receiving end T sounds to me, the process doesn't

:30:18.:30:21.

sound right, you have one of these orders and you have effectively have

:30:22.:30:26.

to fight it and you have no way of going through. The problem is we

:30:27.:30:29.

have a breakdown in community and the way people behave that means we

:30:30.:30:31.

have warring factions within different areas and now we are

:30:32.:30:35.

starting where the state is intervening in, that which is a

:30:36.:30:37.

shame but probably necessary. But I think the issue is that there needs

:30:38.:30:41.

to be much stronger and stricter guidelines, listening - I support

:30:42.:30:44.

some of the points you are making about protecting communities but I'm

:30:45.:30:48.

list enning there, and saying, what we have is something that's too

:30:49.:30:52.

loose. -- listening. There needs to be stronger guidelines to what can

:30:53.:30:57.

be enagented when and what counts. Are you saying you want to get rid

:30:58.:31:01.

of them altogether or would you be happy for them to be reformed and

:31:02.:31:03.

guidelines tightened up? I can't see any need for these

:31:04.:31:18.

notices. They replaced litter notices, but if it is serious, there

:31:19.:31:22.

is already another power that would deal with that. This is being used

:31:23.:31:25.

to supplant other powers, even in some cases, criminal offences.

:31:26.:31:30.

People have received them for smoking drugs in their home. There

:31:31.:31:35.

is a drugs law to deal with that. However, the Home Office is

:31:36.:31:38.

currently revising the guidance, and that is a positive step to improve

:31:39.:31:45.

people's rights. But I think they need to be scrapped. Thank you for

:31:46.:31:46.

coming in. Now, are unpaid internships

:31:47.:31:47.

a valuable form of work experience allowing young people a way

:31:48.:31:50.

into the world of work? Or are they just a form

:31:51.:31:53.

of exploitation which actually

:31:54.:31:55.

reduce social mobility by allowing

:31:56.:31:56.

posh kids to push their way ahead in the race for the

:31:57.:32:00.

best-paid careers? At the weekend, the employment

:32:01.:32:13.

minister confirmed that the government was looking at changing

:32:14.:32:14.

the law. There is a story in the Mail

:32:15.:32:23.

on Sunday this morning, that the Government is looking

:32:24.:32:26.

at outlawing unpaid internships, Well, Rob, I think it is

:32:27.:32:28.

important that young One of the big barriers

:32:29.:32:31.

to getting a job is not having And so there is a role for work

:32:32.:32:36.

experience but I think, particularly in the media,

:32:37.:32:40.

in fashion, in these very sought-after occupations,

:32:41.:32:42.

there is a concern... Well, they tend to go to middle

:32:43.:32:43.

class kids, don't they? ...with unpaid internships,

:32:44.:32:46.

those aren't actually accessible to everybody,

:32:47.:32:48.

so I think it is right So it is part of Theresa May's

:32:49.:32:50.

attack on the poshies. It is part of making sure

:32:51.:32:53.

that we are fair to everybody and, you know, for social

:32:54.:32:56.

mobility, it is important. for unpaid interns staffing

:32:57.:33:00.

the photocopier and running the tea? Conservative MP Alec Shelbrooke

:33:01.:33:04.

thinks it should be, and Kate Andrews of the IEA thinks

:33:05.:33:06.

that the Government should butt out. Alec Shelbrooke, what is wrong with

:33:07.:33:16.

a bit of unpaid work experience? It is not a bit of unpaid work

:33:17.:33:23.

experience. It is months on end that effectively, unless you have the

:33:24.:33:27.

wealth behind you to be able to live in London on a meme of ?900 a month

:33:28.:33:35.

-- a minimum, you need friends and relatives living around London. I

:33:36.:33:39.

say London because roughly 80% of internships are in the capital city.

:33:40.:33:43.

For everybody who says it would reduce opportunity, where does that

:33:44.:33:47.

opportunity like? It lies with those wealthy enough to exploit it. Isn't

:33:48.:33:53.

that true? If you can't afford to be unpaid for months on end or the bank

:33:54.:33:56.

of mum and dad aren't putting you up in a flat, you cannot afford to take

:33:57.:34:01.

unpaid internship. There is no doubt that paid internships are a

:34:02.:34:04.

fantastic thing and I would encourage big companies who have the

:34:05.:34:10.

ability to pay therein terms. If you go to glass door .co .uk, it looks

:34:11.:34:15.

like companies like Google and Facebook are paying their interns

:34:16.:34:19.

thousands of pounds a month. So those internships do exist. My

:34:20.:34:24.

concern is for small businesses and the charity sector. I work at the

:34:25.:34:28.

Institute of Economic Affairs and we bring 100 interns into the building

:34:29.:34:32.

over a year. We are a charity, for nonprofit. And if all of a sudden,

:34:33.:34:38.

we have to pay those 100 interns the minimum wage, we would have to cut

:34:39.:34:43.

the programme. So you would stop offering internships, or could you

:34:44.:34:48.

just offer a few? We would try to offer a few and we do have bursary

:34:49.:34:51.

schemes where we try to offer them to those from working class

:34:52.:34:55.

backgrounds, but the opportunity would be lost. You are a charity and

:34:56.:35:01.

you can have volunteers work for a charity. I think you are confusing

:35:02.:35:06.

that with internships. I am not, because they are different things

:35:07.:35:09.

that happen over the course of a programme. One of the complaint is

:35:10.:35:16.

that it is just cheap labour, you get someone to do your photocopying.

:35:17.:35:20.

If you think you are in an internship that you think should be

:35:21.:35:24.

classified as a job and you are getting long term projects for

:35:25.:35:28.

months on end, you need to report that. The law allows that. That is

:35:29.:35:35.

where I come in. This is the specific point. It is all very well

:35:36.:35:39.

saying you can report it. That is not the reality we live in. The bill

:35:40.:35:53.

is an adjustment of the minimum wage act. The issue here is, how do you

:35:54.:35:58.

make sure that the government intervenes to make sure people are

:35:59.:36:01.

protected in the workplace? As Theresa May said in her conference

:36:02.:36:04.

speech, some government intervention is sometimes the right thing to do.

:36:05.:36:09.

The bill itself precludes people of compulsory school age because work

:36:10.:36:12.

experience is an important thing, and it also precludes people on

:36:13.:36:16.

accredited degree courses. And what about size of businesses? No. So in

:36:17.:36:24.

the media and charity and fashion industries, where there is very

:36:25.:36:27.

little money to go around often, you would prefer to take those

:36:28.:36:31.

internships off-the-shelf, because those businesses could not afford to

:36:32.:36:37.

pay them? Are you seriously telling me that the fashion industry is a

:36:38.:36:46.

pauper industry? If it is at the top that are making a loss of profits,

:36:47.:36:52.

yes, they can pay. But you saw the Mail on Sunday story, which was one

:36:53.:36:55.

I researched, about Vivienne Westwood. This is hardly a small

:36:56.:37:00.

company. Vivienne Westwood does not represent most people in the fashion

:37:01.:37:06.

industry. But you do admit that actually only those who could afford

:37:07.:37:10.

to, even in small think tanks or businesses or charities, it would

:37:11.:37:12.

only be the rich that could benefit from those? You admit that they are

:37:13.:37:18.

only an option for people who can afford them? This is such an

:37:19.:37:22.

important point, the cost of living. The fact that London rent prices are

:37:23.:37:26.

so high that most people, even if they are working in London, can't

:37:27.:37:30.

afford to pay them for a month, is a huge issue. If the government could

:37:31.:37:33.

get behind planning liberation to allow rents to go down, these issues

:37:34.:37:41.

would be helped. This is a good idea. Even when I was a small

:37:42.:37:46.

company, we paid the London living wage to our interns. And that is a

:37:47.:37:51.

real living wage, not the George Osborne rebrand of the living wage.

:37:52.:37:56.

So you could afford that? Well, there was a slight difference.

:37:57.:38:00.

Coming in for a week or two for work experience is different, but someone

:38:01.:38:03.

coming in on a three-month internship programme, I think you

:38:04.:38:07.

can afford to pay for. My charity does the same. We pay internship

:38:08.:38:11.

programmes. Volunteering is different. This corporation we are

:38:12.:38:16.

talking in is one of the worst for doing this. I know many people who

:38:17.:38:20.

started at the BBC because they were able to do six months of unpaid

:38:21.:38:24.

work, and that was how they got in. They came from affluent families. I

:38:25.:38:31.

am a boy who would not have had that opportunity. I could not have done a

:38:32.:38:34.

three-month internship when I graduated from university. I

:38:35.:38:38.

couldn't have afforded to. It does hit social mobility. Yes, we have to

:38:39.:38:44.

help charities but ultimately we already have nepotism that helps the

:38:45.:38:47.

children of the rich and powerful and connected people, and then if

:38:48.:38:51.

you add in a financial element, it is an interesting issue, the way you

:38:52.:38:57.

are arguing it. Is your bill going to happen? Martin supports it and

:38:58.:39:01.

Kate doesn't, but the point is that there have been a lot of politicians

:39:02.:39:04.

giving the rhetoric about doing something on issues like this in

:39:05.:39:08.

terms of promoting social mobility, and nothing happens. David Cameron

:39:09.:39:13.

vetoed the idea from Nick Clegg in the coalition government, so the

:39:14.:39:15.

government doesn't have a good record. I was told I would have to

:39:16.:39:19.

resign if I put this private member's bill forward. I am a

:39:20.:39:26.

backbench MP. I have been pushing on this issue for over two and a half

:39:27.:39:31.

years now. You chip away and raise it up the agenda. In the last week

:39:32.:39:38.

or so, what I have achieved has hugely pushed this forward. What

:39:39.:39:43.

have you achieved? We are talking about it now, and you heard the

:39:44.:39:48.

employment minister. He was equivocal. You have to keep pushing

:39:49.:39:55.

it. Will this bill becomes law? I hope so. It is harder than ever for

:39:56.:39:59.

young people to get on the career ladder and if the government were to

:40:00.:40:03.

bring this in and we were to see the opportunity for internships and work

:40:04.:40:07.

placements dropped off significantly because people couldn't afford to be

:40:08.:40:13.

paid on that small business level... I don't accept that. YouGov said

:40:14.:40:22.

that over 40% of people offered an internship have two then turned down

:40:23.:40:24.

because they financially can't afford it. That is a huge number.

:40:25.:40:32.

This isn't just a minor issue. Even if it is unpaid, a lot of those

:40:33.:40:36.

unpaid internships come through family, friends and contacts. So

:40:37.:40:40.

actually, there is still an in-built disadvantage. So making them paid

:40:41.:40:44.

would put it on a level playing field. The real issues of the day

:40:45.:40:50.

are issues of nepotism and education not enabling people to get to these

:40:51.:40:53.

opportunities. We have heard about the cost of living, but what you are

:40:54.:40:58.

advocating is the idea that if you force small businesses who cannot

:40:59.:41:01.

pay for 100 people a year to be on the minimum wage for a period of

:41:02.:41:04.

time at their company, you seem to believe that they will continue to

:41:05.:41:15.

do that. You have not rebutted that. Companies should be able to pay

:41:16.:41:20.

staff. They are not staffed, they are interns. If you are a staff

:41:21.:41:28.

member... That is the problem. They are being used to provide real work.

:41:29.:41:33.

We know this goes on. They do genuine work in institutions, and

:41:34.:41:38.

you are saying that business doesn't have to pay them minimum wage. Some

:41:39.:41:41.

of us have been campaigning for real rights for people who go into

:41:42.:41:44.

employment and do real work for a long time, and I think it is a bit

:41:45.:41:48.

rich to come and use the charity excuse, which is a different sector.

:41:49.:41:52.

In small businesses have to pay their staff as well. If anybody out

:41:53.:41:57.

there believe that they as a staff member are actually a staff member

:41:58.:42:06.

and not an intern... Come to the Institute of economic affairs, we

:42:07.:42:08.

will give you an internship. Bring your niece or nephew and see that it

:42:09.:42:15.

is a learning process. They get events, discussions, lectures. But

:42:16.:42:19.

if there is a value of the work they are doing, why not pay for it? If a

:42:20.:42:24.

company has the money to do it, I would encourage them to do so. But a

:42:25.:42:29.

lot of companies don't. We heard these arguments before when we were

:42:30.:42:35.

banning the slave trade. What? Do you compare it to that? That is

:42:36.:42:51.

insulting to the history of slavery. To compare it to the slave trade

:42:52.:42:57.

colour isn't that a bit of a leap? It is a form of slavery. We have

:42:58.:43:04.

just had the Modern Slavery Act. Voluntary work is slavery? Kate, you

:43:05.:43:09.

respond. People who are desperate to get on the career ladder who want to

:43:10.:43:12.

go into sectors that do not necessarily have a lot of money, who

:43:13.:43:17.

are volunteering their time and to meet the right people, you're

:43:18.:43:21.

comparing to slaves. That is though deeply insulting to anybody who has

:43:22.:43:27.

been forced to do something. On that note, I am going to finally ask you

:43:28.:43:33.

about student debt. Students are paying back all this money, what is

:43:34.:43:37.

a few months of unpaid work experience going to do? Well, we

:43:38.:43:43.

have big problems in the student finance system at the moment. In

:43:44.:43:46.

Britain, when you sign a contract, that contact is locked into law.

:43:47.:43:51.

When you get a loan, those conditions are locked into law. The

:43:52.:43:55.

exception is student loans, or whether government has

:43:56.:43:58.

retrospectively changed the conditions after students signed up

:43:59.:44:01.

to those contracts. That is a big issue going on right now. The one

:44:02.:44:06.

advantage of doing an internship is that you don't earn enough to start

:44:07.:44:09.

repaying back your student loan, but I would still want people to earn

:44:10.:44:15.

more money. It is not slavery, and that is a dangerous route to start

:44:16.:44:22.

pushing it. Having said that, you keep fluffing about small businesses

:44:23.:44:25.

who can't afford to get people to work for them, and I am asking you,

:44:26.:44:29.

what about people who come from non-privileged backgrounds who have

:44:30.:44:34.

no income? What do they do? You ruin social mobility. We have to finish

:44:35.:44:36.

it there. Thank you both very much. Now, a thinktank which campaigns

:44:37.:44:51.

for lower taxes has developed an app which puts local councils

:44:52.:44:53.

in the spotlight. The Taxpayers' Alliance

:44:54.:44:54.

says its new app, which pulls

:44:55.:44:55.

together different sets of data on council spending,

:44:56.:44:56.

will help people in England see what's happened to their council tax

:44:57.:44:58.

bills over the past 20 years or how much the head

:44:59.:44:59.

of their council is paid. Some local authorities

:45:00.:45:00.

have welcomed the idea - but not everyone is convinced it

:45:01.:45:01.

gives a full and fair picture. Ever thought - gosh,

:45:02.:45:04.

I wonder what the council tax Or, hmm, what are councillors'

:45:05.:45:09.

allowances in this local authority. Now the answer is even easier

:45:10.:45:16.

to find out, apparently. You go on to the app,

:45:17.:45:19.

pop your postcode in and instantly nine different reports come up

:45:20.:45:26.

that we have done over the last It really gives tax payers

:45:27.:45:29.

lots of information from the amount paid to staff, the amount

:45:30.:45:34.

of Government art that is on show, trade union office space,

:45:35.:45:37.

lots of different information that arms the taxpayer with the data

:45:38.:45:39.

that they need to hold their local This is all information that's

:45:40.:45:42.

already available, though, isn't it? A lot of them make the data

:45:43.:45:47.

available, what they don't do is make it easy to digest for tax

:45:48.:45:50.

payers. So, I think the problem is that

:45:51.:45:52.

you'd have to go on, download the spread sheet,

:45:53.:46:00.

download all the PDFs try and look through them all to see

:46:01.:46:03.

the information that you need. What we wanted to do was make it

:46:04.:46:06.

as simple as possible for tax payers to be able to grab the data

:46:07.:46:09.

they need instantly. The Taxpayers' Alliance say

:46:10.:46:12.

transparency and efficiency go They're particularly

:46:13.:46:13.

impressed with Hammersmith and Fulham a Labour Council,

:46:14.:46:17.

whose leader seems to agree. I think transparency does make

:46:18.:46:20.

for an efficient council but the fact is that we have had

:46:21.:46:22.

successive Labour and Conservative administrations that have taken

:46:23.:46:25.

council tax very seriously. The difference is, this year

:46:26.:46:28.

the Government have told us that at the fully expect us to put

:46:29.:46:31.

council tax up by 3.75% and they've removed the incentive for freezing

:46:32.:46:34.

or cutting council tax but we are still one of the handful

:46:35.:46:36.

of councils in the country who have Last year we were the only

:46:37.:46:40.

council in London The reason for that,

:46:41.:46:45.

we are taking a ruthless approach to stripping out waste

:46:46.:46:50.

and putting money back in people's pockets and rebuilding

:46:51.:46:53.

front line services. Hammersmith and Fulham council say

:46:54.:46:54.

engagement with their They recently launched

:46:55.:46:56.

a Disabled People's This campaigner welcomes the efforts

:46:57.:46:58.

here, but warns that judging any council on headline figures

:46:59.:47:02.

could be misleading. If you are in a low council

:47:03.:47:06.

tax local authority, if behind that there are huge cuts

:47:07.:47:10.

affecting services, then a low council tax isn't the be all and end

:47:11.:47:21.

all of the information that local The Local Government Association

:47:22.:47:24.

insists councils are the most efficient part of the public sector

:47:25.:47:32.

and say the new app is unnecessary, because it replicates information

:47:33.:47:33.

that is already available. But if you do want to

:47:34.:47:34.

have a look Your TPA I'm joined now by Dia Chakravarty,

:47:35.:47:38.

the political director of the Taxpayers' Alliance,

:47:39.:47:45.

and the MP Tristram Hunt, who chairs the Labour Party's

:47:46.:47:48.

committee on local government. Welcome to both of you. Dia, first

:47:49.:47:58.

of all, data on council allowances and how much people get paid, it is

:47:59.:48:01.

out there already. You are not adding anything to the sum knowledge

:48:02.:48:04.

of constituents? You would have thought so. Some councils are much

:48:05.:48:07.

better than putting their data out than others. It is also about how

:48:08.:48:11.

the data is presented. Our focus here was to make sure it is

:48:12.:48:14.

presented in a which which is easily accessible, people can understand.

:48:15.:48:17.

Spreads sheets are a beautiful thing... You may say that. But all

:48:18.:48:23.

the data can be difficult to navigate. It is difficult they are,

:48:24.:48:26.

and they have an obligation to put that information out there, even if

:48:27.:48:29.

you are arguing it is slightly difficult to access. Is this not

:48:30.:48:33.

more a political point than it is actual lay point about being easier

:48:34.:48:38.

and accessible it people sn.s it is about transparency. It is about

:48:39.:48:41.

everybodiry single council behaving in a way which makes it ease canny

:48:42.:48:45.

for every resident to access the information. . What's not to like

:48:46.:48:51.

I'm in favour of transpan sane using technology and platforms and apps to

:48:52.:48:55.

engage with local and central government, it is brilliant. So I'm

:48:56.:48:59.

for the technology. I think the app itself is reductive, because what

:49:00.:49:05.

you see is the salaries, fines, contributions, fine, what you don't

:49:06.:49:09.

see, for example, is, as it, were how much a council has invested in

:49:10.:49:14.

local parks, which has saved money in public health. How much a council

:49:15.:49:18.

has supported music lessons which has transformed the life

:49:19.:49:21.

expectancies of young people. So you can be more creative about how you

:49:22.:49:25.

think about local authority expenditure, so you can drive

:49:26.:49:28.

efficiencies, I'm all for, that but you can also think - we have

:49:29.:49:32.

wonderful local authorities doing interesting creative things, why

:49:33.:49:35.

don't we have that, as well as the PEPs contributions. What do you say

:49:36.:49:40.

to that Dia? It is an app, a civil app we have created in house. It is

:49:41.:49:45.

one-sided. All we are doing is getting the informing out there. So

:49:46.:49:49.

your reporter chose to speak to Hammersmith because with the

:49:50.:49:52.

information available it her t seems like a suitable... Because they have

:49:53.:49:57.

reduced costs overall and managed to bring down council tax. On one of

:49:58.:50:02.

your things is a link to Government art fund. Now lots of local

:50:03.:50:06.

authorities have local museums which are under terrible pressure at the

:50:07.:50:11.

moment in temples allowing access to these great collections. . - in

:50:12.:50:19.

terms of allowing. But many people will be surprised local authorities

:50:20.:50:23.

have art. I think they should have art and young people should go and

:50:24.:50:27.

see it and what your apps suggests is it is a bit of a west of money I

:50:28.:50:32.

think it is coloured because what the app or paper suggested is if,

:50:33.:50:36.

say, I don't know, Hammersmith has X number of art works which is

:50:37.:50:40.

people's property there should be an onus on the council to make that

:50:41.:50:43.

available to the people. And that's a basic point of that paper that a

:50:44.:50:48.

lot of councils sit on a lot of art which is wonderful but we just don't

:50:49.:50:53.

get to see it. That was the point in that particular paper. That was the

:50:54.:50:56.

point. Why not have nice pictures of that on your app so you can go to

:50:57.:51:01.

Hammersmith and say - I wanted to see this wonderful mural. I don't

:51:02.:51:05.

like your taste in art. It is a celebration of the cultural

:51:06.:51:08.

impainting oppeople's life. But it is the conversation we are having.

:51:09.:51:11.

It is putting the information out there for the public to access. You

:51:12.:51:16.

need more in there. Get Tristan to do the app for you. You know It was

:51:17.:51:22.

a very basic app to get a conversation started. We think it is

:51:23.:51:25.

important people can access the information, which, as you say, it

:51:26.:51:28.

should be out in the public anyway. I think, as you say, it is there if

:51:29.:51:32.

you try hard but back to Tristan's initial point, it is slightly

:51:33.:51:35.

one-sided. If you are not presenting a case of added value, if you are

:51:36.:51:39.

only presenting a list of figures, which is where your spread sheet

:51:40.:51:42.

argument slightly falls down, in the sense it doesn't offer the full

:51:43.:51:46.

picture. Because, I presume the point of it is you want to see

:51:47.:51:49.

councils reduce their costs further. That's the sort of result? We often

:51:50.:51:55.

find that councils just tend to forget that they are spend other

:51:56.:51:58.

people's money. Spending tax payers' money. That's a fair nunchts for

:51:59.:52:03.

example, if we look at some -- that's fir enough If we look for

:52:04.:52:07.

Kent, I think the council tax there has gone up almost every single year

:52:08.:52:10.

over 20 years, there was one single tax cut. We know that the Chief

:52:11.:52:14.

Executive of that council earns the high nest this council trif all

:52:15.:52:20.

council leaders. - highest in this country of all counsellors leaders.

:52:21.:52:31.

They went on a fact-finding trip to Disneyland. How How would that

:52:32.:52:37.

enhance the local people If that informs how they use Dreamland in

:52:38.:52:44.

Margate to regenerate coastal resorts as a credible use of money,

:52:45.:52:48.

fine. But my point is that local authorities arep spending 22% less

:52:49.:52:55.

today than they were in 200910. I think #24er he - 2009-10. So I think

:52:56.:53:02.

they are well aware. It is communities like Stoke-on-Trent

:53:03.:53:06.

which have teaken the harest hit It is a decrease of 22%. Councils say

:53:07.:53:11.

they have been stripped to the bone. Surely you welcome something like

:53:12.:53:14.

this, about trans pansy, people can make up their own mind and as Dia

:53:15.:53:19.

said it is all about spending money. Now, I am a biassed journalist. It

:53:20.:53:24.

is not a phrase you hear on the BBC often. I am a biassed journalist

:53:25.:53:28.

because the top of my site says we are here to cut your bills and fight

:53:29.:53:34.

your corner. We are pro-consumer. #50i78' biassed I declare T the tax

:53:35.:53:39.

payers' allowance is a biassed organisation with a stated aim. It

:53:40.:53:44.

is not biassed in the state. You want to reduce the amount of tax

:53:45.:53:48.

payers' money being spent. As long as your app is clearest about your

:53:49.:53:52.

bias and stance and what you are doing it, and approximate people

:53:53.:53:55.

read in that context, it'll provide good, transparent information and I

:53:56.:53:59.

support T if it is being used and being seen as a neutral platform

:54:00.:54:02.

that isn't steering, then I think you have the problem. Do you have

:54:03.:54:07.

your stated aim on it? We very clearly state we exist to cut out

:54:08.:54:10.

waste in the public sector and of course, to bring down tax as a

:54:11.:54:14.

condition sequence of that. I don't think it is a surprise to everybody

:54:15.:54:18.

The challenge is this sh do when an organisation there to, as you put

:54:19.:54:22.

it, strip out waste, implicitly suggests that having art galleries

:54:23.:54:25.

and libraries and museums within local authorities should be viewed

:54:26.:54:29.

within the context of waste, then it is problematic. It is It is a waste

:54:30.:54:36.

if it is not available to the people, and it is then true. It

:54:37.:54:42.

hasn't been a waste having you on. Snr now, it is back to our quiz.

:54:43.:54:46.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:54:47.:54:49.

The question was, playwright Alistair Beaton has teamed up

:54:50.:54:52.

with Yes Minister creator Jonathan Lynn to write a new play.

:54:53.:54:54.

But which political relationship does it explore?

:54:55.:54:56.

Was it a) Nigel Farage and Douglas Carswell,

:54:57.:54:58.

Liam Fox, David Davies and Boris Johnson,

:54:59.:55:01.

c) Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott

:55:02.:55:02.

So Martin, what's the correct answer?

:55:03.:55:13.

At least give us an answer? My stint would be that it would be the three

:55:14.:55:19.

Brexiteers. - my instinct The Ukip one we have

:55:20.:55:26.

just had the programme which was very funny about Nigel Farage. Did

:55:27.:55:30.

you watch that? I z I found it very amusing. What about the others? I

:55:31.:55:34.

think Diane Abbott and Corbyn, there are better relationship was Corbyn

:55:35.:55:37.

you would want to explore. That's too nice. You want friction. I would

:55:38.:55:42.

go for the Brexiteers. You are right. ! Yeah. You don't anything

:55:43.:55:49.

for it by the way. ! Not even a mug. Maybe. We are cutting costs. The two

:55:50.:55:55.

writers were inspired by the prospect of David Daviser Orgreave,

:55:56.:56:04.

Orgreave, Boris Johnson and Liam Fox, sharing the mansion, at

:56:05.:56:05.

Chevening. The PM's decision to make

:56:06.:56:15.

the three Brexiteers - Boris Johnson, Liam Fox

:56:16.:56:17.

and David Davis - share the stately home of Chevening in Kent

:56:18.:56:20.

is unlikely to turn out to become a picture of loved-up

:56:21.:56:23.

hippy communal bliss, especially as the three are rumoured

:56:24.:56:24.

not to be the best of friends. But given that the Jacobean

:56:25.:56:27.

mansion has 3,500 acres of land and 115 rooms,

:56:28.:56:30.

they are unlikely to be living on top on each other

:56:31.:56:32.

or even find each other. Nevertheless, the Yes Minister

:56:33.:56:35.

co-creator, Jonathan Lynn, instantly declared the "house-share"

:56:36.:56:36.

comedy gold saying that Theresa May And now Lynn has teamed up

:56:37.:56:39.

with our next guest It is tru, you couldn't make it up.

:56:40.:56:47.

Three ministers sharing a grace and favour home. A gift to political

:56:48.:56:49.

satire? Very kind of our Prime Minister. Not renowned for her sense

:56:50.:56:53.

of humour but she has given us a gi. Congratulations Martin for being

:56:54.:56:55.

brilliant and getting it right. If you would like to invest in the

:56:56.:56:59.

show, I know you have a lot of money, come back to us. No, it is

:57:00.:57:03.

great. These three people, who are going to have to share this rather

:57:04.:57:06.

lovely building, they are not the ideal sharers, they are not the most

:57:07.:57:09.

flexible and gentle of people. Plait mates You can't imagine them rubbing

:57:10.:57:12.

along nicely in a friendly way together. So the idea is, really, it

:57:13.:57:15.

is a great comic premise, but also will let us put the boot in just a

:57:16.:57:20.

little bit. Just a little bit. Who will you put it in or what? Well I'm

:57:21.:57:24.

in the hugely enthusiastic about Brexit, neither is Jonathan Lynne.

:57:25.:57:26.

It is not very well-organised. We have a Prime Minister who says

:57:27.:57:29.

Brexit means Brexit and the reason she says Brexit means Brexit is

:57:30.:57:31.

doesn't know what Brexit means. Nobody does. We are with a

:57:32.:57:33.

Government that doesn't really know where it is going to be going. Are

:57:34.:57:37.

you going to follow current events and track it closely? We'll probably

:57:38.:57:40.

do a lot of last-minute writing and have a very stressed cast learning

:57:41.:57:45.

new lines at the last minute. You are not new to that? . Do youville a

:57:46.:57:51.

quoshging title? Well the Three Brexiteers but it might change. Will

:57:52.:57:57.

it be a lit it bit like Yes Minister, meets the Manor Born.

:57:58.:58:01.

Well, it will be funny. And perhaps a little savage in places. I do hope

:58:02.:58:07.

So these three people will be probably dealing with the probably

:58:08.:58:10.

the biggest constitutional change for 100 years or something and it is

:58:11.:58:14.

very hard not to relish the prospect of having Boris on stage. Who is

:58:15.:58:19.

going to play Boris? The theatre is his proper residence. Is that where

:58:20.:58:23.

he should be? Do you think he has missed his vocation? He is wasting

:58:24.:58:29.

his time in politics. He is our very first comedy Foreign Minister. Have

:58:30.:58:32.

you asked him about a change of career? We will ask him along. But

:58:33.:58:36.

not to star? We'll let him come to the first night. I think you should

:58:37.:58:42.

ask viewers for a suggested title. I was going with Grace Favour and

:58:43.:58:46.

Boris. On that note, thank you very much for coming N we look forward to

:58:47.:58:50.

T thank you for being our Guesting of today.

:58:51.:58:52.

I'll be back at 11.30 tomorrow with Andrew for live coverage

:58:53.:58:55.

of Prime Minister's Questions.

:58:56.:58:56.

He's a scientist, brilliant apparently.

:58:57.:59:09.

Jo Coburn is joined by Martin Lewis, founder of the website MoneySavingExpert, to discuss personal finances and whether unpaid internships should be banned.

There is also an interview with playwright Alistair Beaton who has teamed up with Yes Minister creator Johnathan Lynn for his next project.


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