24/01/2017 Daily Politics


24/01/2017

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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Today, by a majority of eight to three, the Supreme Court rules that

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the Government cannot trigger Article 50 without an Act of

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A government defeat in the Supreme Court as the judges

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confirm that only parliament can approve the triggering of Article

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50 which begins the process of our withdrawal from the EU -

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but they rule that there's no role for the devolved

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The Government accepts the Supreme Court's judgement.

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MPs and peers will get a vote - but what will the legislation look

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like and what obstacles might Labour and other opposition

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Strikes have paralysed the Southern Rail network

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for months, preventing hundreds of thousands of commuters

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Should unions and workers be allowed to inflict such disruption

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And we're leaving the EU - so when will the bonfire

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of regulations that are supposed to cost the British economy

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All that in the next hour, and with us for almost the whole

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of the programme today is the former Culture Secretary and Leave

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So - the Government has failed to get its way in the Supreme Court,

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and MPs and peers will get a vote before Article 50 is triggered,

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which begins the process of Britain's exit from the EU.

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The judges ruled by a majority of eight to three

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that the Government cannot begin the process for the UK's exit

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from the European Union without the authorisation of Parliament.

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Lord Neuberger, president of the Supreme Court,

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said a further Act of Parliament was required as the EU

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Referendum Act did not specify what would happen after the vote.

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Another issue the 11 justices had to consider

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was whether the devolved assemblies also need to be consulted.

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But they ruled that ministers did not need the consent

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of the legislatures in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland

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The Government is now expected to swiftly publish legislation

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asking Parliament to invoke Article 50.

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Any bill is expected to be very short in order to leave as little

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Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn has said the party

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will not frustrate the invoking of Article 50, but is demanding

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that the Government is accountable to Parliament throughout the Brexit

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negotiations - with a "meaningful vote" at the end.

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Alex Salmond, the Scottish National Party's

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International Affairs spokesperson, has said the SNP will table 50

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"serious and substantive" amendments, including a call

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for the Government to publish a White Paper before

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But how big a problem will this pose to

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The Prime Minister had pledged to trigger Article 50

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But MPs did overwhelmingly back a motion before

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Christmas supporting the Government's Brexit timetable -

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suggesting there may be a clear majority in the House of Commons

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Here's how the President of the Supreme Court, Lord Neuberger,

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The referendum is of great political significance.

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But the Act of Parliament which established it did not say

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So any change in the law to give effect to the referendum must be

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made in the only way permitted, by the UK constitution.

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To proceed otherwise would be a breach of settled

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constitutional principles, stretching back many centuries.

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On the devolution issues, the court unanimously rules that UK

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ministers are not legally compelled to consultant the devolved

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legislatures before triggering Article 50.

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The devolution statutes were enacted on the assumption that the UK

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would be a member of the EU, but they do not require it.

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Relations with the EU, are a matter for the UK Government.

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The Attorney General, Jeremy Wright, had this reaction to the judgement.

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It's a case that it was wholly appropriate for the highest court

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Of course the Government is disappointed with the outcome.

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But we have the good fortune to live in a country where everyone,

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every individual, every organisation, everyone government,

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So the Government will comply with the judgment of the court,

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and do all that is necessary to implement it.

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Gina Miller is the business woman who brought the case

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Here's how she reacted to the judgement.

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In Britain, we are lucky, we are fortunate to have the ability

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to voice legitimate concerns and views as part

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I have therefore been shocked by the levels of personal abuse that

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I have received from many quarters, over the last seven months,

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for simply bringing and asking a legitimate question.

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Let's talk to our political editor, Laura Kuenssberg.

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Laura, the Government respects the judgment, even though it lost, and

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lawyers have described the ruling a as victory for democracy, what does

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Theresa May do now? The first thing as one Government minister said was

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to say phew, that might sound strange given the Government have

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lost this case, they certainly have, and let us not forget they did not

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want to be in this position. No question about that. However, they

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had two clear fears about what the court might say this morning, one

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they would give the devolved administrations a formal role and

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say they had to have an official say over this process, the judges held

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back from doing that, so that is one small victory for the Government.

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Part two, the court did not say what kind of legislation, what kind of

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act the Government would have to come forward with. And that was

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another small victory for the Government, so phew on those two

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accounts, the judges did not tell them they had to consultant the

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other authorities and they did not spell out the kind of legislation

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they had to put forward. Therefore, they can push ahead with what might

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even only be a bill of two lines, that we might see as soon as

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tomorrow, and I expect that the Government might try to tie this all

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up within the next fortnight as far as Westminster is concerned. In

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order to stick to the timetable of the end of March, but does that mean

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then, that MPs will not be able to put down amendments? We have heard

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from the SNP they will try and put down 50 substantive amendments. Yes

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and there will be huge efforts from those on the Remain side to try to.

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A mend this bill, no question about that. Some of them will be debated

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and there are real questions too, for the Government, if somebody

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manages to get an amendment down, about whether or not we should stay

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in the single market, if they manage to get an amendment down about a

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vote at the end of the process that would be binding. That could start

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be sticky. There is a pretty widespread expectation now that the

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amendments might be troublesome. It could be bumpy, particularly when

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this hits the House of Lords, but there isn't widespread expectation

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this will go through and with the two big headaches not having been

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realised by stream court, the Government strange as it sounds they

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have been defeated but they are relieved. This. Amendment that

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Labour has talked about. A meaningful vote, that would be a

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veto? It would, so there is going to be a real game of cat-and-mouse in

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terms of which amendments a are selected by the Deputy Speaker

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rather the than John Bercow who will select the amendments that go

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forward. Even the selection will be a political act. But this is going

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to be difficult, for anybody, Jeremy Corbyn or any one else trying to put

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down amendments here, because where the government has a lot of people

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would thinked its cards wisely, Theresa May got out last week ahead

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of the Supreme Court verdict today and set out with clarity for the

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first time, what her plan is. She has tried to pitch that very much as

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this is what she believes people voted for and therefore, nobody can

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try to disturb or disrupt that, so people who are trying to put forward

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amendments will be doing so up against that context, and I think

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when you talk to MPs of all political parties right now, there

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is an acceptance that whatever they try to do, whether it is Jeremy

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Corbyn's amendment or anything else, the time for being able to slam the

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brakes on this is probably past. At least it seems that way for now, in

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six or nine month whence once we are in negotiations this could feel a

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very very different picture. Thank you.

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Welcome both o you. Fist your reaction, are you disappointed by

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the ruling? No, I think it was widely expected that this would be

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the ruling, it is a ruling that the constitutional lawyers and the

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academics will crawl over and it very important for basic issues line

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the use of a Royal Prerogative, but in termles of Brexit, I don't think

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it will make much difference now and as Laura rightly said, the fact that

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Parliament can reach a quick decision and move on was the

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important outcome. So do you also agree with Laura's assessment that a

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very short bill will be presented to Parliament, rather than a

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substantive piece of legislation? Yes, I mean, what the Supreme Court

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has said is that Parliament needs to authorise the Government to trigger

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Article 50. That is a couple of loins of legislation. I would expect

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that bill to be published very quickly and for it to go through

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Parliament quick. We expected the first part of the ruling and no

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doubt you are disappointed by what the Supreme Court President said

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that relations with the EU are a matter for the UK Government, he was

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very clear, so do you accept now that the devolved assemblies leek

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the Scottish Parliament will not have a veto? Well, one thing that

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the judgment did say today was that it is a political decision. It is up

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to Theresa May about whether or not the Scottish Parliament has a say,

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now the UK Parliament has never legislated on an issue that is the

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responsibility of the Scottish Parliament in the EU impacts on

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fishing, farming energy. But it's a matter of Foreign Affairs. They have

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never done so. Where there is a political decision,ing if it's a

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political decision, is that union of equals, is it a respect agenda in

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terms of devolution and will that settlement be respected. When will

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you hold a independence referendum on the fact the Government isn't

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going to legally be bound to ask for your say, in this decision, when

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will you hold the referendum? We haven't triggered Article 50 yet.

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Let us see what the minister has to say about what happens next. One

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thing that has been hugely disappointing to is is the Scottish

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Government put forward a compromise. We put forward compromise, that was

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flatly rejected, and that was really disappointing that the UK Government

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is not prepared to meet the Scottish Government and the other devolved

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administrations half way. Once Article 50 is triggered and it looks

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like that will happen by the end of March which is what Theresa May

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would like to see, we know that the UK will be coming out of the single

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market, is that when you will tell us when the independence referendum

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will be? That is obviously something the Scottish Parliament will have to

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debate. The the referendum comes highly likely, this is as a direct

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result of the UK Government refusing to compromise, refusing to give any

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ground. We did not vote to leave the insystem market. We were promised

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that Scotland would get powers over immigration by vote leave, we are

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not getting that, we have had a series of broken promises by the UK

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Government and this puts Scotland and its relationship of equals into

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a very difficult place. Right. Steven has a point. Even Theresa May

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said the devolved assemblies were going to be fully engaged. Of course

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they will be. They don't if they don't have that say. They will take

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part in the debates in Parliament. They have initiated debates in

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Parliament. At the end of the day, the Scottish Government is not an

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equal of Westminster Government, certain matters are devolved to the

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Scottish Government, one of those is not the matters concerning the

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European Union, this is a decision for the Westminster Parliament.

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Right. You do accept that which is what I said to you initially, that

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when it comes to matters of the EU, when it comes to Foreign Affairs

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these are not devolved issues. But things like fishing and farming are.

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Energy is a devolved issue. Will you have a say on that through the

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committee? These are Members of Parliament. John's forgetting that

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members of Parliament are not members of the Government, we are

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members of the Westminster Parliament us juz as Conservative

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MSPs are members of the Scottish Parliament. Democracy does not begin

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and end at Westminster, and this is something the Conservative Party has

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not really kept pace with, and thus is disastrous electoral showing in

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Scotland. And you could pay the price for that, as the ballot box,

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in future elections but in terms of being fully engaged, how do you see

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the devolved assemblies being fully engaged, other than sitting on a

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committee or two in Brexit? I'm sure the government will listen

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to the views of the devolved governments. If they make sensible

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suggestions, I'm sure they will be taken into account. When you say it

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was promised, what was the wording given to you by Michael Gove in

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terms of a promise that immigration would be devolved? He thought it

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would be sensible for Scotland to have control over immigration

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because we have particular needs. Freedom of movement is something

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jobs rely on. I will read you what he said. He said, if in the course

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of the negotiations the Scottish Parliament wants to play a role in

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deciding how a Visa system could work, then that is something we

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would look into. That's not quite the same as saying they would

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devolve immigration. I raised this in the chamber. When I asked Michael

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Gove if it would mean devolving immigration, he nodded. It was an

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act of negligence that the UK government has carried on. If they

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can keep this simple promise, what hope Howie for the rest of these

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areas? -- can't. You behaved in a negligent manner. You make promises

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you couldn't keep. The vote Leave campaign was not the government.

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What Michael Gove said sounds very sensible to me. But sadly, in my

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view, Michael Gove is not a member of the government now, nor am I. It

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means it is a matter for the government to decide. Steven Cousins

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HAAS to go. Thank you. Jenny Chapman, Jeremy Corbyn has said this

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morning Labour will not frustrate the process of invoking article 50.

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But he has said he will seek to amend the Bill and ensure there is a

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meaningful vote. What is that? The reason it is meaningful is that it

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needs to come before the deal is signed. There will be two votes. I

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don't think people got their heads around it. The votes we are talking

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about today is around the Article 50 agreement, the withdrawal agreement

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from the EU, which will deal with things like pensions and

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contributions, all of those sorts of issues. Also in that agreement is

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likely to be a transitional deal, which we will be on. That will

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inform our relationship as we leave so there is no cliff edge. What is

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not in that withdrawal agreement is the free-trade deal, or whatever our

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future agreement is going to be with the EU. That is another bowled

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Parliament needs to have. Theresa May needs to give parliament a votes

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on any trade deal she goes into in the future. Would you go along with

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that? Parliament obviously needs a votes. That is very clear. The

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problem is that once Article 50 is triggered, then we are set on a path

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which will lead to Britain leaving. That is irrevocable. That is being

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argued about at the moment. That is what Article 50 says. If we chuck

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out the deal and say Parliament decides it doesn't like the deal,

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then we leave anyway. We just don't have a deal. This is where the

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argument lies. If there is a vote and Parliament does vote it down. We

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don't like the deal, we don't think we are getting enough in terms of

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what we wanted with regard to free-trade, do we stay in the EU at

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that point, or do we go on to World Trade Organisation rules? One is the

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transitional deal we could have. That takes away this, you either

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take this deal or not. That was a stupid thing for the Prime Minister

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to have said because it will not be the case. You can actually extend

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the negotiating period should you need to. That has to get the

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agreement of the other 27 states. The debate is taking place as if

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that is not possible. It is possible. You agree it is a risk? Of

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course. He could not get agreement, we would be on a cliff edge. Indeed.

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I don't think it would be in the interest of the other 27 states. Why

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shouldn't there be a deal to say that actually, just go back and

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negotiate further in the interests of the UK? Parliament has the

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ability to vote at any stage of the process. But at the end of the day

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this is in negotiation the government has to conduct. I think

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the Prime Minister is right to warn against any attempt to bind the

:20:00.:20:04.

hands of the negotiating team. We don't want to set conditions on the

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government. Europe will know that and will harden their stance

:20:10.:20:11.

immediately if they know that the government has to achieve something.

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Right. These are the arguments that have been set out before. We show

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our hand completely, we won't get the deal that we want. You accept

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that? Absolutely. You will not see an amendment from the Labour Party

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which says we want to see your negotiating tactics. We will be

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making probably five very reasonable amendments that I hope the House

:20:39.:20:42.

will adopt. We want to see a plan. We have had a speech. Do you want to

:20:43.:20:48.

see a White Paper? That would be great. If it is less than a White

:20:49.:20:52.

Paper but still fulfils the function of a plan, we would settle for that.

:20:53.:20:59.

We want certainty around EU citizens, certain principles around

:21:00.:21:03.

maximising free-trade, the Customs Union, that the Prime Minister

:21:04.:21:07.

outlined herself in her speech. We want parliamentary oversight and a

:21:08.:21:11.

vote before the end. Most of those things the Prime Minister has

:21:12.:21:15.

already said she accepts. I do not see why the government would want to

:21:16.:21:20.

obstruct our amendments. You have been clearer about what Labour pots

:21:21.:21:25.

position would be in terms of Article 50. Are you convinced by

:21:26.:21:31.

your labour colleagues? You will not get every Labour MP to vote in

:21:32.:21:36.

favour of triggering Article 50. Will there be a width? That is way

:21:37.:21:42.

above my pay grade! There is the small matter of the party

:21:43.:21:46.

leadership, the shadow Cabinet, the Chief whip. If you are quite firm as

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part of the Brexit team on issues like freedom of movement, invoking

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Article 50, should there be party management to whip Labour MPs? It is

:21:56.:22:01.

not up to me. Whatever we do, whether it is a three line whip, it

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is academic and away. There are MPs I know who, whatever working

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arrangements you put in place, are not going to vote Article 50. One of

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them was on the programme yesterday. You are split on this issue as we

:22:19.:22:23.

used to say the Conservatives are. We are not, really. It's different.

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It is nothing like what you have seen over decades in the Tory party.

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The referendum has put Labour MPs in positions where they are on

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different sides of this argument. But we respect one another pots 's

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edition on this. We are very understanding. --'s position. We saw

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IDS and Ken Clarke going at it hammer and tongs this morning on TV.

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I was a Maastricht rebel, so I remember! When it comes to the vote,

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I think what you will see is with probably the single exception of Ken

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Clarke, all Conservative MPs will vote to trigger Article 50. The

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Labour Party will probably go in three different directions. Thank

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you. Donald Trump's had a busy few days,

:23:19.:23:20.

and so far it's going well for him. His proposed Secretary of State has

:23:21.:23:25.

been given the green light by the Senate, and he's formally

:23:26.:23:28.

withdrawn from the Trans-Pacific But not everything is

:23:29.:23:30.

going according to plan. So our question for today

:23:31.:23:33.

is, what's gone wrong? At the end of the show John

:23:34.:23:37.

will give us the correct answer. Over the last year or so, strikes

:23:38.:24:08.

on Southern Trains have wreaked havoc on rail travellers

:24:09.:24:11.

in the south east of England. The row over who should operate

:24:12.:24:13.

the doors on new trains has re-opened the debate

:24:14.:24:16.

about whether our strike laws need toughening, and today,

:24:17.:24:18.

Conservative backbencher Chris Philp is introducing a bill to the Commons

:24:19.:24:20.

to address the issue - and he joins us from

:24:21.:24:23.

Parliament's Central Lobby. What does your bill asked for? It

:24:24.:24:32.

asks for proportionality. It says the rights of the public to get to

:24:33.:24:36.

work or get home to see their loved ones, should be balanced with the

:24:37.:24:39.

right to strike. People do need to be able to get to work. A High Court

:24:40.:24:45.

judge should adjudicate were strike action is taking place or is

:24:46.:24:51.

proposed, to say that action must be reasonable and proportionate when

:24:52.:24:54.

weighed against the impact on the public, against the issue of the

:24:55.:25:01.

drivers. The action on Southern Railway has not been reasonable and

:25:02.:25:05.

proportionate. There have been 40 days when 300,000 people have been

:25:06.:25:09.

unable to get to work. The dispute centres on who opens or closes the

:25:10.:25:14.

doors. Driver operated stores run perfectly safely on 1.5 million

:25:15.:25:18.

trains in the last five years. The regulator says they are saved. They

:25:19.:25:25.

run safely on London Underground. It is -- the strike is running people's

:25:26.:25:33.

lives. The strike stayed past the required threshold. What

:25:34.:25:35.

justification have you got to make it even harder? Taking the RMT

:25:36.:25:44.

dispute with Southern as an example, something like 75% did vote for

:25:45.:25:48.

strike action. You have 300,000 people simply complaining about who

:25:49.:25:52.

opens or closes the door, preventing 300,000 people from getting to work

:25:53.:25:58.

on 40 days. It is not reasonable or proportionate. I'm not saying strike

:25:59.:26:02.

should be banned. I'm simply saying we should balance the right to

:26:03.:26:05.

strike with the right of people to get to work and recognise those

:26:06.:26:08.

rights as well as recognising the work of -- the rights of strike. Is

:26:09.:26:13.

the government supporting new? I'm not here to support -- to speak for

:26:14.:26:18.

the government. Begun and will speak for themselves. It is not currently

:26:19.:26:21.

government policy. They are thinking about it. The more the unions behave

:26:22.:26:26.

unreasonably, the more likely this kind of legislation becomes. We

:26:27.:26:30.

can't sit back and watch constituents' lives being ruined by

:26:31.:26:39.

this kind of action. If they behave unreasonably, it makes a case for

:26:40.:26:43.

legislation stronger. Watson of turnout are you expecting from your

:26:44.:26:48.

colleagues? After failing to predict the Brexit referendum and Donald

:26:49.:26:54.

Trump's election, not in the prediction business. It does have a

:26:55.:26:59.

lot of backbench support. Over 50 Conservative MPs signed a letter a

:27:00.:27:02.

couple of weeks ago to the daily Telegraph, and there is widespread

:27:03.:27:05.

support in parliament and more importantly in the country.

:27:06.:27:11.

Yesterday a Paul was published saying 64% of Londoners supported

:27:12.:27:15.

this. We're joined now by Mick Lynch

:27:16.:27:18.

of the RMT union. Let's go back to that opinion poll

:27:19.:27:28.

in yesterday's Evening Standard. 65% of Londoners want curbs on strikes

:27:29.:27:33.

by train or tube drivers. It would be good if you lose the vote? 61% of

:27:34.:27:40.

the country on a nationwide poll support the right of trained staff,

:27:41.:27:46.

emergencies services start, doctors, Fire Brigade 's etc, to maintain

:27:47.:27:51.

their right to strike. He is saying, if you strike on the way we like and

:27:52.:27:55.

it's very ineffective, I will tolerate your right to strike. This

:27:56.:28:00.

is a suppression of human rights. Long-standing human rights that

:28:01.:28:02.

trade unions and working class people have had. People have rights.

:28:03.:28:07.

It is balanced by, if you like, in an unfair whereby the current raft

:28:08.:28:11.

of legislation which has just gone through Parliament. It is not even

:28:12.:28:15.

fully enforced yet. We have a raft of balancing laws that will restrict

:28:16.:28:19.

the right to strike coming in on March the 1st. They have been on a

:28:20.:28:24.

process of voting in parliament. This is more about Chris Phipps's

:28:25.:28:30.

ambition. He is getting a profile out of it. He has not done enough to

:28:31.:28:35.

bring about a resolution and put pressure on Chris Kelly -- Chris

:28:36.:28:38.

Grayling and Southern to bring a resolution. He is politicising the

:28:39.:28:42.

dispute through his own ends and for the Tory party's agenda, which is

:28:43.:28:46.

whenever the trade unions dared to put their heads above the parapet,

:28:47.:28:50.

they want to make what we do illegal and crush resistance. He is not

:28:51.:28:57.

wanting to make it illegal? All but. Yes, I support the bill. I will vote

:28:58.:29:04.

for it if there is a vote today. How would you deem a strike to be

:29:05.:29:06.

unreasonable on an essential service? Chris has set out that the

:29:07.:29:11.

critically essential services should have additional requirements

:29:12.:29:19.

before... What would there be? Primarily transport, rail, perhaps

:29:20.:29:22.

the tubes. Things huge number of people depend on. Chris is speaking

:29:23.:29:27.

up for his own constituents and travellers on Southern rail who have

:29:28.:29:30.

been put through misery Day misery Day after day. Do you blame the

:29:31.:29:34.

company? The company is certainly open to criticism. Shouldn't some of

:29:35.:29:42.

the pressure be going on to the company? I know Chris Grayling is

:29:43.:29:45.

talking to the company and the union. He has done nothing. He has

:29:46.:29:53.

said his door is open. This is about strike action and whether there are

:29:54.:29:59.

some services were there needs to be protection for the consumers. Chris

:30:00.:30:00.

has come up with some suggestions. What you mean, paying conditions

:30:01.:30:13.

that people have built up, you find that to be too much and you are

:30:14.:30:18.

going to challenge it and get one of your friends to the judiciary to

:30:19.:30:22.

make that strike illegal. At the moment they haven't done well with

:30:23.:30:26.

their friends in the judiciary. There are people that are willing to

:30:27.:30:30.

put the trade unions down. No-one wants to give us the freedom enjoyed

:30:31.:30:36.

in other countries, we have the most repressive laws in the western

:30:37.:30:41.

world. They are mirrors what is in place in other countries. Other

:30:42.:30:46.

restrictive practises. Other countries... People are more tree to

:30:47.:30:57.

take action. Australia, developed western economy, they recognise on

:30:58.:31:01.

critical services you need protection. The DFT has put people

:31:02.:31:05.

through misery, there is no need for this dispute in the first place, the

:31:06.:31:10.

DFT has sponsored this dispute from the beginning to get rid of guards

:31:11.:31:14.

on the trains it a political dispute in the sense your party and

:31:15.:31:17.

Government is running I Do you accept both sides have politicised

:31:18.:31:21.

it. You have on the one side, I have before quoted to you the RMT

:31:22.:31:25.

President, you said it was quoted out of context but it was broadly

:31:26.:31:28.

about taking down a Tory Government when it came to resisting strike

:31:29.:31:34.

action and you blamed the Tory Government, for ideologically

:31:35.:31:36.

opposing these strikes and not doing enough about the company, so

:31:37.:31:40.

politics has dogged this strike on both sides. All strikes have a

:31:41.:31:44.

political element. There is going to be something in there that is a

:31:45.:31:51.

broader agenda. The Tory party and the DFT want to dehumanise the

:31:52.:31:55.

railway. They will change the franchises, so that the companies

:31:56.:31:58.

can make no profit and their ambition is to get rid of guards on

:31:59.:32:03.

all trains in the UK. Is that that your ambition? We made clear this is

:32:04.:32:10.

a dispute between the operating company, it is the case that across

:32:11.:32:14.

the rest of the country there are large numbers of trains that are

:32:15.:32:17.

driver only operated without any difficulty whatsoever. I suppose

:32:18.:32:21.

what I could say in terms of the legislation itself, this trade union

:32:22.:32:24.

legislation was brought in relatively recently, if you are

:32:25.:32:30.

supportive of toughening up or going further with that legislation you

:32:31.:32:35.

got it wrong the first time round. Chris is introducing a private

:32:36.:32:38.

member bill. He is putting suggestions on the table, I think

:32:39.:32:42.

they are interesting one, I think they are worth looking at,

:32:43.:32:44.

particularly given the experience we have had in the last few weeks. Will

:32:45.:32:49.

the Government move on it? That is a matter for the Government. Should

:32:50.:32:53.

they? I would hope they would. You are revisiting a piece of

:32:54.:32:56.

legislation you have only just brought in. I think what is driving

:32:57.:33:01.

Chris fillip and a lot of other people is the fact 300,000 people

:33:02.:33:07.

are being put through hell, over a arcane dispute between two trade

:33:08.:33:12.

unions about who opens the doors. It is not arcane. We are passionate

:33:13.:33:21.

about defending the standards of safety on the railway. You choose

:33:22.:33:27.

not to believe that, but the guard has other roles besides opening and

:33:28.:33:29.

closing door, that is what the dispute is about. Whenever we put

:33:30.:33:33.

forward reasonable industrial accuse sun that is effective you seek to

:33:34.:33:39.

make it illegal. The Tory party has never reported legislation that will

:33:40.:33:43.

assist trade unions, this is another chapter in oppressing our rights and

:33:44.:33:46.

another in suppressing people's freedom and the ability to resist

:33:47.:33:50.

what this Government is doing and what the employers are doing. The

:33:51.:33:54.

Government says it is about balancing rights between the people

:33:55.:33:58.

who use the services and people like you who work in the service, but

:33:59.:34:04.

could this strike action actually backfire for the unions, if it

:34:05.:34:09.

results in the Government backing even tougher leg lacing you sigh as

:34:10.:34:15.

anti-union. So you come out with your hands up. We are not prepared

:34:16.:34:19.

to do that. What can you do? We have the right to industrial action and

:34:20.:34:23.

we will continue to do so. We try do that within the law as we do with

:34:24.:34:27.

everything else. Regulation about tax and returns and the rest of it.

:34:28.:34:32.

We will continue to act within the law until the Tories make that

:34:33.:34:36.

impossible. Wouldn't it be better to try and have a reconciliation,

:34:37.:34:39.

rather than talking about tougher legislation that is is only going to

:34:40.:34:42.

escalate this row because we have heard, they will continue the union,

:34:43.:34:46.

which is within their right further strike action. One of the

:34:47.:34:49.

suggestions in the bill is on essential services, where there is

:34:50.:34:52.

an industrial dispute there should be a requirement to go to

:34:53.:34:54.

arbitration, that is one possibility. Another is it should go

:34:55.:34:59.

before perhaps a judge, not a friendly one, as we had seen today

:35:00.:35:03.

but an independent judge who can rule as to whether or not the action

:35:04.:35:06.

taken is proportionate. These are suggestions at this stage. This is

:35:07.:35:10.

not going to become law, they are sensible and worth looking at. Thank

:35:11.:35:13.

Now, Donald Trump promised yesterday to "cut business regulation

:35:14.:35:16.

Could the UK government do the same here?

:35:17.:35:19.

That's the hope of many of those who campaigned

:35:20.:35:21.

They say red tape associated with our membership of the EU

:35:22.:35:25.

is costing the UK economy billions of pounds every year.

:35:26.:35:27.

One of the burning issues of the referendum campaign.

:35:28.:35:43.

It is absurd that we are told you cannot sell bananas in bunches

:35:44.:35:47.

If we take back control, we will lift the burden.

:35:48.:35:56.

?600 million a week lifted off the backs of British industry.

:35:57.:36:01.

Bananas claimed about wonky fruit aside, saving all that money

:36:02.:36:05.

by getting rid of red tape is surely a persuasive argument.

:36:06.:36:09.

In 2014, the think-tank Open Europe costed the impact of the 100 most

:36:10.:36:13.

expensive EU regulations on the British economy

:36:14.:36:17.

Take environmental legislation, such as the UK Renewable Energy Strategy.

:36:18.:36:21.

Costing a yearly ?4.7 billion, it's one of the hottest

:36:22.:36:24.

Or employment legislation, such as the Working Time Directive.

:36:25.:36:35.

That was said to cost business ?4.2 billion a year.

:36:36.:36:37.

There is an annual price tag of ?2.1 billion

:36:38.:36:39.

for the Temporary Agency Workers Directive.

:36:40.:36:44.

Lots and lots of regulations that are very much to do

:36:45.:36:46.

with bureaucracy, rather than real benefit, and that bureaucracy

:36:47.:36:49.

cost businesses money, especially when it's applied

:36:50.:36:52.

The British Chambers, for example, stopped measuring it in 2010

:36:53.:36:59.

because nobody was listening, and by that point they'd already

:37:00.:37:02.

estimated that European regulations cost ?80 billion a year.

:37:03.:37:07.

Big numbers, but the Government holds its hands up and says it likes

:37:08.:37:11.

many of these regulations, and any way it realises it

:37:12.:37:13.

could get its fingers burned by removing them.

:37:14.:37:15.

Under my leadership, not only will the Government protect

:37:16.:37:18.

the rights of workers set out in European legislation,

:37:19.:37:20.

Because under this Conservative Government,

:37:21.:37:25.

we will make sure legal protection for workers keeps pace

:37:26.:37:28.

The think-tank Open Europe reckon there is an annual ?13 billion

:37:29.:37:36.

saving to be had from deregulation, but that would come

:37:37.:37:38.

from amending EU rules, rather than dumping them completely.

:37:39.:37:41.

The Government's plan is to take EU regulation

:37:42.:37:49.

on to the UK statute book, and the first instance is to keep

:37:50.:37:52.

that regulation the same, in terms of negotiation with the EU,

:37:53.:37:54.

but clearly the Government is giving itself the tools to look

:37:55.:37:58.

at regulations in the future, because it will be something that

:37:59.:38:00.

I certainly think that as the relationship

:38:01.:38:03.

develops, as we are outside of the European Union,

:38:04.:38:08.

it is inevitable in some areas regulation is going to diverge

:38:09.:38:10.

different attitudes to certain issues, and as the EU takes

:38:11.:38:14.

different attitudes we might no longer sign up to.

:38:15.:38:16.

Those hoping for a bonfire of EU regulations the day

:38:17.:38:18.

after Brexit might want to dampen their expectations.

:38:19.:38:20.

Changing the rules or getting rid of them completely,

:38:21.:38:22.

even if you wanted to, could well be a slow burn.

:38:23.:38:33.

You enjoyed that John. I suppose you would think one of the great add van

:38:34.:38:40.

Tam of Brexit is we will be able to establish vast swathes of

:38:41.:38:42.

regulation, which would you like to get rid of first? I think there is a

:38:43.:38:46.

lot to choose from, what we have said to British business is you tell

:38:47.:38:52.

us which are the most burden some, the most unnecessary, pieces of

:38:53.:38:55.

regulation and we will look at whether they can be repealed. This

:38:56.:38:59.

is going to take time. It is not part of the Brexit negotiations, but

:39:00.:39:03.

because what we will do is introduce a bill that transfers all European

:39:04.:39:06.

regulations into British law and then we will have the opportunity to

:39:07.:39:09.

go through and decide which are appropriate and which are not.

:39:10.:39:12.

Right. But what are the regulations that you would like to get rid of?

:39:13.:39:19.

Boris Johnson said we can get rid of the pointless rules, what did he

:39:20.:39:23.

have in mind? I think you have had a list put up on the screen of some.

:39:24.:39:27.

Things like the Working Time Directive, not to remove entirely.

:39:28.:39:31.

Part of the problem with European regulation is they agreed in

:39:32.:39:35.

Brussels, as a single regulation across the whole of #y50u6r7. What

:39:36.:39:40.

we will be able do is design it so it meets our needs, it might be that

:39:41.:39:44.

certain sectors should be exempted for instance from Working Time

:39:45.:39:47.

Directive, but we have the time to look at these things and craft them,

:39:48.:39:52.

so they don't impose unnecessary costs and burdens. You would like to

:39:53.:39:57.

restrict something like the Working Time Directive which is a cost of

:39:58.:40:02.

4.2 billion. That season a area where we can say to the various

:40:03.:40:06.

sectors for maybe the farming sector or the NHS or others who have

:40:07.:40:09.

complained about the impact of Working Time Directive, you tell us

:40:10.:40:12.

what is necessary, and which is unnecessary, and just adding to our

:40:13.:40:15.

costs and then the British Government can draw up the

:40:16.:40:18.

regulation, specifically designed for the needs of that particular

:40:19.:40:22.

sector. That puts you at odds with the Prime Minister, because Theresa

:40:23.:40:26.

May wants to enhance exactly that type of employment protection and

:40:27.:40:29.

legislation, a fairer Britain she says is a country that protects an

:40:30.:40:33.

enhances the rights people have at work, so she doesn't want to do

:40:34.:40:38.

that. We don't want to sweep away all Rourkers -- workers' rights. You

:40:39.:40:42.

have said business tells you we want to get some of the regulations and

:40:43.:40:48.

rules that will know doubt, some will include employment protection,

:40:49.:40:51.

the ones Theresa May says she wants to keep. They would say we would

:40:52.:40:57.

like you to get rid of it. I can remember from my time in Government

:40:58.:41:02.

there were measures which the Government oppose which we argued

:41:03.:41:07.

against and loss in a vote, so we were still required to implement.

:41:08.:41:10.

There are plenty of examples like that where we have side this is not

:41:11.:41:14.

necessary. It is going to add to costs now we will have the ability

:41:15.:41:18.

to get rid. Are you disappointed by what Theresa May said? No,some She

:41:19.:41:23.

goes on to say that is why in order to have this fair ir-Britain, that

:41:24.:41:26.

is why as we translate, which with you said the body of European law

:41:27.:41:29.

into domestic regulation for we willen shoe shoe that workers'

:41:30.:41:33.

rights are fully protected and maintained. She doesn't want to get

:41:34.:41:38.

rid of any of it That is no what she is saying. He is saying workers'

:41:39.:41:42.

rights are fully protected and maintained. Under my leadership, not

:41:43.:41:46.

only will the Government protect the rights of workers, set out in

:41:47.:41:50.

European legislation, like the temporary agency workers directive

:41:51.:41:53.

and the working time directive, we will build on them. She wants to

:41:54.:41:58.

increase it. One of the things about being outside the European Union is

:41:59.:42:01.

we can reduce regulation in areas where we think it is unnecessary, if

:42:02.:42:06.

there are air areas we would like to do more we have the chance to do so.

:42:07.:42:10.

That will increase the talk. About this tall from you and Boris Johnson

:42:11.:42:15.

and you and your leave colleagues we are going to wipe away billions, not

:42:16.:42:19.

according to Theresa May, or what you have said is you might build.

:42:20.:42:24.

There are one or two areas where we wanted to go further and the

:42:25.:42:28.

European Union held us back. Animal welfare and legislation, we were

:42:29.:42:31.

stopped from bringing in certain protections, but in the vast

:42:32.:42:36.

majority of cases, Europe has added more and more regulation. Where? I

:42:37.:42:40.

am trying to get to the bottom of it. If you have accepted that

:42:41.:42:43.

Theresa May wants to not only keep workers' rights legislation, but

:42:44.:42:47.

build on them, environmental legislation, such as the UK

:42:48.:42:52.

renewable energy strategy comes in at 4.7 billion. Environmental

:42:53.:42:55.

protections would you get rid of those to save money? We will draw

:42:56.:43:00.

them up so they are appropriate for this country, there will be some

:43:01.:43:02.

elements of European regulation which are sensible and which we will

:43:03.:43:06.

say we have no intention of repealing those, but where there are

:43:07.:43:11.

examples where we believe that they are unnecessary and costly, we can

:43:12.:43:14.

get rid of them. Have you got any examples? Are we going to get to the

:43:15.:43:19.

bottom of the list... As we talked about one or two, like Working Time

:43:20.:43:24.

Directive, which we wouldn't necessarily get rid of. Theresa May

:43:25.:43:27.

doesn't want to get rid of it. She hasn't said that, she said she will

:43:28.:43:31.

protect workers right. Where there is a strong case, we will keep those

:43:32.:43:36.

thing, when I was Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport we had

:43:37.:43:39.

European regulation coming through, which we strongly opposed, and yes

:43:40.:43:43.

we were forced to implement. We can look at it again and some we may

:43:44.:43:48.

keep and other parts we have the freedom to repeal. Boris Johnson

:43:49.:43:53.

said we can, when we take back control we can save ?600 million a

:43:54.:43:58.

week, will be lifted off the backs of British industry, do you agree

:43:59.:44:04.

with that? John Longworth you had earlier, he ran the British Chambers

:44:05.:44:08.

of Commerce who used to keep the running total of the cost of

:44:09.:44:12.

regulation, I don't think you can put a specific figure on it. Boris

:44:13.:44:15.

Johnson did. There is a vast amount of regulation which adds to cost,

:44:16.:44:19.

makes us less competitive and destroys jobs. You haven't been able

:44:20.:44:23.

to give me a specific example We have been talking about specific

:44:24.:44:26.

example, I have given you several. I think that it is for business to

:44:27.:44:33.

tell us, those areas of regulation they found to be most costly and for

:44:34.:44:39.

which there is little justification. As we come to debate the great

:44:40.:44:42.

repeal bill, that will be consequence.

:44:43.:44:45.

Now, Theresa May refused to say on Sunday whether she was aware that

:44:46.:44:48.

a Trident missile had veered off course towards Florida in a test

:44:49.:44:51.

Yesterday it was revealed that the Prime Minister was made

:44:52.:44:56.

aware of the incident when she took office in July, and the Defence

:44:57.:44:59.

Secretary, Michael Fallon, was summoned to the House of Commons

:45:00.:45:02.

As the matters we are about to discuss are of the utmost

:45:03.:45:13.

confidentiality and may give succour to Her Majesty's enemies,

:45:14.:45:17.

I beg to move - I beg to move that the House sit in private.

:45:18.:45:23.

Under Standing Order Number 163, I am obliged to this this question

:45:24.:45:27.

The question is that the House do sit in private.

:45:28.:45:35.

As many as are of that opinion say aye.

:45:36.:45:37.

We do not comment on the detail of submarine operations.

:45:38.:45:52.

I can, however, assure the House that during any test firing

:45:53.:45:56.

the safety of the crew and public is paramount, and is

:45:57.:46:01.

I can assure the House that the capability and effectiveness

:46:02.:46:07.

of the United Kingdom's independent nuclear deterrent is not in doubt.

:46:08.:46:13.

The Government has absolute confidence in our deterrent,

:46:14.:46:16.

and in the Royal Navy crews who protect us and our Nato allies,

:46:17.:46:20.

Can I ask the Secretary of State a simple question.

:46:21.:46:30.

Why was this information deliberately kept from Parliament

:46:31.:46:33.

Who made the decision to keep this incident quiet?

:46:34.:46:36.

Was it his department or was it Number Ten?

:46:37.:46:40.

And while respecting the limits of what he can disclose,

:46:41.:46:43.

can he at least set out what investigation his

:46:44.:46:45.

department has carried out into what happened in June?

:46:46.:46:48.

And what assurances he can give that there will be no future cover

:46:49.:46:52.

Mr Speaker, at the heart of this issue is a worrying lack

:46:53.:46:59.

of transparency and a Prime Minister who's chosen to cover

:47:00.:47:01.

up a serious incident, rather than coming clean

:47:02.:47:04.

This House, and more importantly the British public, deserves better.

:47:05.:47:13.

While accepting that the nuclear deterrent needs to be

:47:14.:47:17.

shrouded in secrecy, it also needs to deter,

:47:18.:47:21.

and once stories get out there, that a missile may have failed,

:47:22.:47:24.

isn't it better to be quite frank about it,

:47:25.:47:26.

especially if it has no strategic significance, as in this case

:47:27.:47:34.

John Whittingdale, has this been handled well by Number 10? I think

:47:35.:47:53.

it is faintly absurd to have a 40 minute session of MPs asking

:47:54.:47:58.

questions and having the Secretary of State refused to answer them,

:47:59.:48:04.

basically. But he is quite right. Matters of nuclear deterrent are

:48:05.:48:07.

concerned with security and we never comment on these. There have been

:48:08.:48:11.

successful tests publicised in the past. Press releases have been sent

:48:12.:48:18.

out. And the Prime Minister was briefed a rout -- about this test

:48:19.:48:21.

misfiring. Should they have come clean when they were asked? What the

:48:22.:48:29.

Secretary of State has told us, the submarine is now back doing its job

:48:30.:48:35.

and we have come out the other side. Eukaryote test to see if there are

:48:36.:48:40.

problems and then correct them. -- eukaryote test. I don't think you

:48:41.:48:47.

can put out a press release to tell everybody that Britain's nuclear

:48:48.:48:52.

deterrent has a problem. Because it undermines deterrence Ubud Julian

:48:53.:49:00.

Lewis says there have been umpteen other tests that have been

:49:01.:49:06.

successful. Should Number 10 have come clean? I don't think it would

:49:07.:49:11.

have affected the vote on Trident. You don't talk publicly on matters

:49:12.:49:17.

affecting public security. When it was all over the press, should a

:49:18.:49:21.

Theresa May have answered differently on the Andrew Marshall?

:49:22.:49:26.

If the Prime Minister had just said, I regret the fact that this was on

:49:27.:49:31.

the front page of the Sunday Times, but I'm still not prepared to talk

:49:32.:49:35.

about matters of national security, which is essentially what the

:49:36.:49:38.

Secretary of State then said later, that would have been fine. Is that

:49:39.:49:43.

what you have -- would have advised her to do? A long time ago I used to

:49:44.:49:48.

advise the Prime Minister before interviews and that is probably what

:49:49.:49:53.

I would have said. To some extent the Prime Minister could have

:49:54.:49:56.

stopped the debate on this in its tracks on Sunday by saying something

:49:57.:50:01.

more definitive, couldn't she? She clearly was on willing to answer the

:50:02.:50:06.

question. She might have been more explicit in just saying, I'm not

:50:07.:50:08.

going to answer that question. Our guest of the day,

:50:09.:50:11.

John Whittingdale, has to rush off now, but before he goes,

:50:12.:50:13.

let's find out the What hasn't gone

:50:14.:50:16.

well for Donald Trump John Whittingdale, what do you think

:50:17.:50:45.

is the right answer? The one I suspect he would probably be most

:50:46.:50:49.

sore about is Arnold Schwarzenegger. It's probably not the right answer!

:50:50.:50:55.

It is not. His new Washington, DC Hotel is losing money. I don't

:50:56.:51:00.

suppose people will shed any tears because he has got a few Bob. Thank

:51:01.:51:04.

you for being on the programme. Thank you.

:51:05.:51:06.

Back to our main story - the Supreme Court's judgement

:51:07.:51:08.

on whether Article 50 can be triggered.

:51:09.:51:10.

In the last hour, the Brexit Secretary, David Davis,

:51:11.:51:12.

I can announce today that we will shortly introduce legislation

:51:13.:51:18.

allowing the government to move ahead with invoking article 50,

:51:19.:51:22.

which starts the formal process of withdrawing from the European Union.

:51:23.:51:29.

We received the lengthy judgment a few hours ago and government lawyers

:51:30.:51:33.

are assessing it carefully. But this would be a straightforward bill.

:51:34.:51:38.

It's not about whether or not the UK should leave the European Union.

:51:39.:51:42.

That decision has already been made by the people of the United Kingdom.

:51:43.:51:47.

We will work with colleagues in both houses to ensure this bill is passed

:51:48.:51:51.

in good time and we will invoke article 50 by the end of March this

:51:52.:51:56.

year, as the Prime Minister has set out. We will introduce legislation

:51:57.:52:00.

to give the government legal power to trickle Article 50 and begin the

:52:01.:52:06.

formal process of withdrawal. It will be separate to the great repeal

:52:07.:52:11.

Bill to repeal the European Communities Act 1972, introduced

:52:12.:52:14.

later this year. This will be the most straightforward bill possible

:52:15.:52:19.

to effect the decision of the people and respect the decision of the

:52:20.:52:21.

Supreme Court. That was David Davis. We're joined now by the leader

:52:22.:52:25.

of the Liberal Democrats in the Lords, Lord Newby,

:52:26.:52:27.

and the former Ukip Welcome to both of you. Dick Newby,

:52:28.:52:36.

you are the leader of the Liberal Democrats in the House of Lords,

:52:37.:52:40.

which has a large contingent of more than 100 unelected peers. Are you

:52:41.:52:43.

going to block Article 50? We will try to amend the Bill. We will be

:52:44.:52:48.

trying to insert in the Bill a provision that the people should

:52:49.:52:53.

have the final say on the outcome of the Brexit negotiations. Do you want

:52:54.:53:01.

a second referendum? We want a first referendum. With the first

:53:02.:53:06.

referendum people voted for a raft of incompatible things. We want to

:53:07.:53:11.

give them the chance to vote on what will be a very specific negotiated

:53:12.:53:15.

outcome. I think it is quite likely we will oppose it. It will be

:53:16.:53:18.

perfectly available for people to vote in favour of Brexit at that

:53:19.:53:23.

point if they agree with the terms. Do you not feel uncomfortable that

:53:24.:53:27.

you would be leading 100 or so unelected peers in frustrating the

:53:28.:53:30.

well of more than 17 million voters in the referendum who called for the

:53:31.:53:35.

EU to live? We're not frustrating the will of the people. Giving

:53:36.:53:40.

people a vote is not frustrating the will of the people. It's

:53:41.:53:44.

implementing the will of the people or allowing them to implement their

:53:45.:53:49.

own will. Said that the fair enough? The House of Lords is there to

:53:50.:53:52.

scrutinise legislation and amendments will be laid down in good

:53:53.:53:57.

faith. It is there to scrutinise legislation but the government

:53:58.:54:00.

couldn't have been clearer when it spent ?9 million on that pamphlet it

:54:01.:54:04.

shoved through every letterbox in the land, in which it said clearly

:54:05.:54:08.

that you, the people, will decide this. It didn't actually put it into

:54:09.:54:13.

the legislation, technically, but there is no doubt about it that that

:54:14.:54:17.

is what was intended, that is what the British people thought they were

:54:18.:54:22.

doing when they voted for Brexit. I would be very surprised if, led by

:54:23.:54:30.

the Liberal Democrats in the House of Lords, the House of Lords did

:54:31.:54:33.

anything to frustrate that process. I think it would be madness. And,

:54:34.:54:41.

you know, they will be erecting the guillotine in Parliament Square

:54:42.:54:46.

pretty soon. That sounds pretty painful? We tried to amend the House

:54:47.:54:50.

of Lords so we were popularly elected. The Labour Party and the

:54:51.:54:57.

Tories wouldn't agree. According to Malcolm Pearson, it would be

:54:58.:55:01.

madness? We don't believe it would be madness. Giving people a vote

:55:02.:55:05.

could never be madness. We still believe the House of Lords as a role

:55:06.:55:10.

to play but it should be elected. The Supreme Court has upheld that.

:55:11.:55:15.

The government lost its case in the Supreme Court. They have said it is

:55:16.:55:20.

up are parliament to trigger the process of leaving the EU. Do you

:55:21.:55:27.

think those judges are enemies of the people, as described by the

:55:28.:55:34.

Daily Mail? No. I understand they said that Parliament had to be

:55:35.:55:37.

consulted about the triggering of Article 50, which is rather

:55:38.:55:42.

different. They said it had to be an act of Parliament. Yes. I gather

:55:43.:55:47.

that is going to be done soon. That's fine. There can be an act of

:55:48.:55:51.

Parliament to trigger Article 50 and the process will take place. The

:55:52.:55:55.

Prime Minister has said the result of the negotiations will be put

:55:56.:56:05.

again to Parliament. So again, it comes back to Parliament. But you

:56:06.:56:08.

must remember, the House of Lords is a very Europhile place. It's stuffed

:56:09.:56:11.

full of former EU Commissioner 's and assorted mischief who have

:56:12.:56:15.

actually brought this country into the bog with the European Union

:56:16.:56:18.

where we are. So the House of Lords will be very grudging about this.

:56:19.:56:23.

What do you think about the second referendum idea, or the first

:56:24.:56:27.

referendum idea as Dick Newby says? I don't think people will want it.

:56:28.:56:31.

It is pretty clear we will be able to do a very good deal with the EU.

:56:32.:56:37.

If you look at jobs, they have got 3 million more jobs selling things to

:56:38.:56:40.

us than we have to them. We held every card in the pack. On mutual

:56:41.:56:47.

residence, they have got 3 million people living here, we have 1.2

:56:48.:56:50.

million living there. Why is this going to be so difficult? It's not.

:56:51.:56:58.

It is in our interests to give us a painless exit from this ill-fated

:56:59.:57:03.

venture. We don't know what the negotiations are going to be. But

:57:04.:57:08.

divorce negotiations tend not to be happy, jolly events. Unless

:57:09.:57:12.

everybody would like to get something positive out of it?

:57:13.:57:15.

Everybody would like to get something out of it. Frankfurt would

:57:16.:57:20.

like to get City jobs, so would Paris, so would Dublin. Berlin would

:57:21.:57:25.

like to get our high-tech jobs. The negotiations will bear those jobs

:57:26.:57:28.

are very much in mind. Suzanne Evans, Ukip's Deputy chair, says

:57:29.:57:35.

judges should be subjected to some sort of democratic control. Do you

:57:36.:57:41.

agree? No, I don't think I do. It is very important for the separation of

:57:42.:57:46.

powers that Parliament and the executive and the judiciary, and

:57:47.:57:50.

indeed the church, remain... So you think today was a good day in terms

:57:51.:57:55.

of democracy? Think of is proper that it should happen. I regret the

:57:56.:58:00.

decision of the majority of the judges. But one wouldn't be

:58:01.:58:03.

surprised about that because on the whole are judges are pretty

:58:04.:58:09.

politically correct. You think they are Europhiles? I didn't say that!

:58:10.:58:15.

Are the Lib Dems moving away from the centre of the -- politics? Only

:58:16.:58:22.

a quarter of the support your call for a second referendum? I think

:58:23.:58:31.

that we saw erichment, and we are seeing weekly in by-elections, that

:58:32.:58:34.

many people support exactly what we are standing for. We look forward to

:58:35.:58:37.

this being chewed over in Parliament.

:58:38.:58:38.

That's all for today. Thanks to our guests.

:58:39.:58:40.

The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:41.:58:43.

I'll be back at 11:30 tomorrow with Andrew, for live coverage

:58:44.:58:47.

Do join us then. Bye bye.

:58:48.:58:54.

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