23/01/2017 Daily Politics


23/01/2017

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LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Did a test of our nuclear weapons system go wrong?

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And, if so, should Parliament have been informed?

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The government is under pressure to give a full explanation to MPs.

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The government promises a new, more interventionist

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industrial strategy to boost the post-Brexit UK economy.

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Labour says it doesn't go far enough.

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Labour's First Minister and the leader of Plaid Cymru launch

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a joint Brexit plan for Wales, calling for a Norway-style model.

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We take a look at the most annoying phrases used

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by politicians and what it's doing to their credibility.

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All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole

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of the programme today, we have two women who,

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in the spirit of age, have marched all the way

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from the Palace of Westminster to our little studio across the road.

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Conservative Anne-Marie Trevelyan and Labour's Tulip Siddiq.

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Now, Prime Minister Theresa May says the government will play an "active

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role" British industry, as she sets out the government's

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industrial strategy today in Warrington.

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A green paper will outline broadband, transport

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There will also be more money for STEM, science, technology,

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engineering and maths subjects, and a further ?556 million for

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Business Secretary Greg Clark has been speaking about the strategy at

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Let's take a look at what he had to say.

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One of the big themes of our industrial strategy

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is to build on our great successes but also to help make sure

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that we drive growth in all parts of the country.

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We are in a catapult centre, which is there, that takes

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government research money to combine with industry and universities,

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to help small businesses prosper in the future.

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The industrial strategy will be committed to driving very hard

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to spread the opportunities right across the country.

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Let's talk now to our correspondent Eleanor Garnier, who's in Cheshire

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where the Cabinet has been meeting this morning.

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So what have they been discussing? Well, the meeting is still going on.

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I haven't been allowed in, surprisingly! I don't know how they

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are getting on but I do know that the meeting has started and is

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probably going to last for about an hour. Theresa May was whisked past

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in her car about 45 minutes ago and you can see the motorbikes, the

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police motorbikes lined up very neatly behind me at this science and

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technology campus, a science and innovation campus where they have

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come to their first-ever regional Cabinet. Really, Theresa May has

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come here to launch our industrial strategy but that's all about

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getting the country ready for Brexit. Improving productivity,

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boosting skills. Importantly, she says, not just in London and the

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south-east but across the country and that is why they are here, to

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make the announcement, knowing that investment in the north, the

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north-east and north-west, outside London and the south-east is really

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important. There are a few main areas, if you like, that this

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industrial strategy will cover. First, it's a consultation but the

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aims are to cut down red tape and bureaucracy. There's going to be

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investment regionally. The understanding that what might work

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best for Manchester is not necessarily what Cornwall is going

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to need. And thirdly, investing in skills and that is one thing that

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business in particular says is desperately needed. There is a huge

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shortage in those STEM skills, science, technology, engineering and

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maths and there is extra money, around ?170 million, to help boost

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those skills and a promise to create new technical colleges, Institute of

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Technology, they are calling them, up and down the country, to try to

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get those skills going, if you like. Once Britain leaves the EU, there is

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a worry that employing people from across the EU who have those

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specialist skills might be a bit harder for business. We had George

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Osborne's Northern Powerhouse and Gordon Brown used to hold regional

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Cabinet is outside of London and around the country. Is this kind of

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Theresa May's brand, if you like, post Brexit, trying to spread

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economic growth around the UK? It is and it is building on what she set

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on the steps of number ten, that she wants an economy that works for

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everyone and that is the big test also of this industrial strategy,

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not just to help companies that are already doing well, but to reach

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parts of the country where industries and companies are not

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doing so well. That is why she wants to see this investment, region by

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region, project by project. What is interesting about it is that it is

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much more active and interventionist than the industrial strategies we

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have seen before. I think that gives a clue to what Theresa May thinks in

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terms of the benefits of business working for everyone. I think she

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thinks in order for that success to spread to everyone, actually, the

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government needs to give it a bit of help, a bit of a shove to make sure

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the success is spread amongst the whole of the country. Thank you for

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joining us. Annemarie, talking of an

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interventionist style, Theresa May did commit herself last year to

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intervening to tackle excessive pay. What has she done about it? I think

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in all these things, she's a practical person, that is how she

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has always done her politics and she sees with Brexit coming and with

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what is a very real skills gap, particularly in STEM, we need to

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really actively encourage that and drawing together government

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leadership and business support to come together, create new centres,

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institutes of technology, I'm working with lots of defence

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businesses to look at schooling level, maths -based technologies

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because we need more engineers and software scientists, all that

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technology which is what is coming forwards needs to be absolutely a

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standard part of the... But I asked about some of the things she said

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she was going to tackle and intervene in and one of them was to

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tackle excessive executive pay. Why has she not done anything about it?

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I think the conversation has started. It is certainly kicking

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around the system. Again, I think she is a politician who wants people

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to look at the questions. She will take all the evidence she can reach

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a decision. She's never made a decision in a rushed manner. She has

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put it out there, she is committed to getting the better balance, when

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she talks about a country that works for everyone, she genuinely feel the

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disparity between the top and the bottom. So you no action has been...

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She will draw together the views before she makes a decision and I

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have no doubt she will. But action has to match the rhetoric and in

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terms of putting workers on company boards, she has already wrote back

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on that action, rightly or wrongly, was that the right decision?

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Personally, I think we should have a flexible system, where companies are

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responsible and respected through their companies and externally for

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the way they run their businesses. Tulip Siddiq, you would support

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this, presumably, Labour would support a firm industrial strategy,

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particularly for a Conservative government, intervening to help in

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areas where it has been a struggle for business to set up? Certainly, I

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welcome the Prime Minister's aims but I have to say an industrial

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strategy will only work if it is in conjunction with a larger, broader

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strategy for economic growth. For example? What this won't have is

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Theresa May going and saving individual core plants from the

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post-Brexit consequences because if those firms cannot find staff with

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the correct skills, if they are facing crippling tariffs, if they

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have export bureaucracy, then there is no point. For me, at the moment,

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what I think we really need is clarity on where the country is

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going, and clarity on the post-Brexit business and industry

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landscape would I don't feel we have at the moment. You don't want the

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Prime Minister pick winners, support certain companies that might need

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help in a post-Brexit world? I don't think you can pick and choose an

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environment like this. Like agriculture, for example? It has to

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be part of a larger great strategy, you can't pick one or two, for me

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and we have had no clarity on that. Do you think there will be more

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deals done all letters written guaranteeing future economic trade

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with companies like Nissan? Nissan is obviously one of the key

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north-east businesses and I think it was great Prime Minister listened

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early, to understand what their needs are, and how the free-trade

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arrangements we make with the EU will impact... Even if subsidies are

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guaranteed if there are difficulties? We need to make sure

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we a framework that works. Cue the praises the point that making shall

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be your aquatic frameworks for businesses, moving goods to and from

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the EU, Harrison plus possible and the great repeal bill will bring in

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all the existing frameworks that there is no risk businesses are

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stuck in limbo. They will be in the same framework is now as we move

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towards a free trade arrangement rather than the existing customs

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union we are in at the moment. Why do you think the UK is less

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productive than countries like France? I think one of the problems

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we have at the moment is the downward trend of the pound, which

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is down by 18%, and the growth in inflation. Why does that affect

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productivity of workers? I mean, I think the truth is we have not

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looked at the broader framework for a great strategy which the Prime

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Minister, picking winners and pointing them out to the media, and

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talking about certain companies, just isn't right for us. We need to

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think about wages. We are in a low-wage economy. We need to think

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about workers' rights, how we increase... But workers' rights are

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continuing as they have done. We are not getting rid of any of them at

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the moment or are you worried about that? I'm very worried about it. I

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think the speech the Prime Minister made was certainly not a plan and

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until I have reassurance on workers' rights, what will actually happen

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when we leave the single market, the confidence of businesses is going

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down and so is productivity. What evidence is there that confident of

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businesses is going down? Speak to the businesses in my constituency

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and London generally, they are extreme you worried about what will

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happen in a post-Brexit landscape. Businesses in the north-east are

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excited about the opportunity for exports which are not limited by EU

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rules and regulations. Are they excited about the fact the pound has

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fallen more than it ever has? If you are an exporter, it is fantastic

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news for them and they are taking advantage and we are seeing more

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jobs coming in. The challenge we have is not enough of those skilled

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people that we need to be able to grow those quickly enough which is

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why I don't think productivity can improve. We will leave it there but

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we will discuss this later in the programme as well.

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The question for today is which pastime has former

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Prime Minister David Cameron reportedly gone back to?

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Was it a) pheasant shooting, b) fox hunting

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At the end of the show, Anne-Marie and Tulip will give

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Now, MPs are calling on the Government to provide

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an explanation, after press reports at the weekend that a Trident

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nuclear missile test carried out last year went wrong.

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Ministers are expected to be called to answer an urgent question

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on the matter in the House of Commons this afternoon.

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But the Government has disclosed few details about the incident so far,

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The UK has four nuclear-armed submarines, one of which is

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Each can carry up to eight Trident missiles.

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According to The Sunday Times, a failed missile test was carried

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out by HMS Vengeance off the coast of Florida

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Sources told the paper a Trident 2 D5 missile -

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which was unarmed - may have "veered off

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The Ministry of Defence has said the submarine and its crew

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were "successfully tested" and that the effectiveness

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of the Trident missile is "unquestionable".

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Unlike this one, previous Trident missile tests

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were publicised in 2000, 2005, 2009 and 2012,

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leading to claims the reported failure was kept quiet by Downing

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Labour and the Scottish National Party have urged Ministers to give

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MPs voted overwhelmingly to renew the nuclear

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weapons system last July, only weeks after the reported failed

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Theresa May told MPs then that "Britain's nuclear deterrent

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is an insurance policy we simply cannot do without",

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in what was her first major Commons speech as Prime Minister.

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But did she know about the failed test at the time?

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Well, the Prime Minister refused to give a clear

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answer when she was asked that question yesterday.

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Did you know that misfire had occurred?

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I have absolute faith in our Trident missiles.

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I think we should defend our country.

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I think we should play our role in Nato with an independent

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Did you know about it, when you told the House of Commons?

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The issue that we were talking about in the House of Commons

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It was about whether or not we should renew Trident,

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whether we should look to the future and have a replacement Trident.

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There are tests that take place all the time, regularly,

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What we were talking about in that debate...

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OK, I can see I'm not going to get an answer to this.

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In the last few minutes, the Prime Minister's spokesman has confirmed

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that treason was -- Theresa May was briefed on a range of issues when

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she became Prime Minister, including planned nuclear tests.

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We did ask the Government for an interview but the Ministry

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of Defence told us that no-one was available.

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We are joined however by the Conservative MP

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Dr Julian Lewis, chairman of the Defence Select Committee.

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So the Prime Minister should have answered clearly that she did know

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on the programme yesterday? I think it would have been wiser for there

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to come out and say it in a straightforward way, but the real

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responsibility for this lies with the people that decided to cover the

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matter up in the first place in June. Presumably that was Downing

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Street. I have got to say, and I never thought I would use these

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terms, in fairness to the spin doctors of Downing Street, a very

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senior former Cameron spin doctor has rung up my office in a state of

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great anger, saying they never knew anything about it. They denied it.

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We have the grades, saying it is false to suggest the David Cameron

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media team tried to cover up the missile test. That just move the

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argument one step further back. I have got to say it was a great

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pleasure to convey the message to Sir Craig Oliver that he should

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issue a press release on the subject and I hope you will do so in detail

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and in-depth. But if he didn't know, did the Prime and if she knew, -- if

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the Prime Minister new, why didn't he make the matter public and tell

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his closest spin doctors? You think David Cameron might have known and

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didn't tell people. It seems incredible that he didn't tell his

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director of communications at the time. The plot gets thicker. If

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there was a cover-up, it occurred at the time of the abortive missiles

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test in June, and not in July when the vote was being held at when we

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had the new Prime Minister who had been in office for just a few days.

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But even if she had only been in office for a few days as Prime

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Minister, these are key pieces of information. She would have known.

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We now know in fact he was briefed about it. It is inconceivable that

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she wouldn't have been. Doesn't it betray a level of trust that he

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wasn't able to be clear about that when asked a direct question? -- she

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wasn't. I think it would be better for both Prime Minister is to be

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absolutely upfront about this but what you have got to remember is

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that this particular issue is not what the debate was all about. The

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debate was all about who we renew our nuclear deterrent or not? But we

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didn't have all the facts. But we do have all the facts in the sense that

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this particular missile system including the missiles that we use

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our shared with the Americans. And altogether, according to reports,

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there have been over 160 successful test firings. Are you seriously

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suggesting that the majority of 355 MPs would have been turned around

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into a vote not to renew the Trident missiles system? I am not suggesting

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that and I haven't put it to you. What I am suggesting is that there

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is a level of transparency that MPs would probably have appreciated and

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if that was the case, and you are so convinced they would not have been

:18:01.:18:03.

converted in terms of their viewpoint, then why not set it out

:18:04.:18:07.

clearly? I have already answered that. I have said it should have

:18:08.:18:11.

been done. But I can only assume that you may have thought there

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would be an inevitable row on the basis of her having to point the

:18:17.:18:19.

finger at the previous administration. The first question

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then would have been why was it covered up a month ago by your

:18:23.:18:26.

predecessor? Was it right for Greg Clark to say today that it would

:18:27.:18:31.

have been wrong to comment on Trident tests because it would put

:18:32.:18:35.

information in the hands of our enemies? Was it wrong for the

:18:36.:18:38.

government to publicise the successful testing of Trident

:18:39.:18:42.

missiles in 2012? That last point is the crucial one and you are right.

:18:43.:18:48.

The fact is that most information, just like with the special forces,

:18:49.:18:52.

most information about the submarines and the nuclear deterrent

:18:53.:18:55.

has got to be kept under wraps. But the fact is that when you have a

:18:56.:18:59.

missile test firing of this sort it is usually widely publicised and the

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sensible thing when there is an occasional mishap, and the planned

:19:03.:19:06.

aborting of a mission when something goes wrong is to be upfront about

:19:07.:19:11.

it, and then you have no issue arising out of it of significance

:19:12.:19:15.

whatsoever. You are against the renewal of the Trident missile

:19:16.:19:17.

system anyway. It wouldn't have changed your mind either way or made

:19:18.:19:23.

any material difference. I think this is deeply worrying. There was a

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serious malfunction in our nuclear deterrence. The Prime Minister came

:19:28.:19:32.

and told our MPs to renew this, spending ?40 billion of taxpayers'

:19:33.:19:37.

money, and when we raised concerns about how credible this was, we were

:19:38.:19:41.

dismissed. It wasn't just me. There were members from both sides of the

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House raising concerns about how credible it is. Should we look at

:19:46.:19:50.

other options and is it right? We were dismissed out of hand and

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criticised and told constantly that we didn't care about the country's

:19:54.:19:57.

security. If the Prime Minister new, which judging by that interview that

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you showed us, I am a politician and I know when someone is evading the

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question, she knew and he should have told us and she shouldn't have

:20:05.:20:08.

covered it up and he shouldn't have kept us in the dark. -- she should

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have told us. This is by far the most effective system in the world.

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Yes, but should Theresa May have been straight in terms of what she

:20:21.:20:25.

knew? But as Doctor Lewis said, in relation to the debate in July, the

:20:26.:20:32.

two are not related. But what about her interview yesterday? Should she

:20:33.:20:36.

have been straight? I hope very much that she was well briefed and it is

:20:37.:20:39.

her decision whether to discuss it or not. The point we should take

:20:40.:20:43.

away is that the Royal Navy have tested a missile every four years.

:20:44.:20:50.

This missile had just come out and they tested it. There was a problem

:20:51.:20:53.

with a missile which was not armed and it could not have caused any

:20:54.:20:58.

damage. It was a test. Our Navy and the Mariners did a cracking job to

:20:59.:21:03.

make sure they managed the situation. But this is about being

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straight with the electorate and MPs in the House of Commons when an

:21:07.:21:09.

issue like this is being voted on, whether or not it is directly

:21:10.:21:14.

related or not. The UK notifies other states when these tests are

:21:15.:21:20.

being carried out. Lord admirable West said the Russians would know

:21:21.:21:23.

more about the test and the misfiring of a missile that veered

:21:24.:21:30.

off course than your colleagues in the House of Commons. Can that be

:21:31.:21:34.

right? Personally I don't see a problem about whether it should be

:21:35.:21:37.

discussed and put down as a written statement in the way lots of things

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are. We test lots of weaponry across the board all the time and this was

:21:42.:21:47.

not a nuclear test. It was an unarmed missile test. But they

:21:48.:21:53.

announced it in 2012. It goes against the mission, if you like.

:21:54.:21:58.

Yes, that this is getting out of proportion. The challenge is whether

:21:59.:22:00.

the new Prime Minister was thoroughly made aware and your

:22:01.:22:04.

statement implies that she was but it was an historic test at that

:22:05.:22:09.

point. My question is whether she was fully briefed. I have no problem

:22:10.:22:13.

knowing that our Royal Navy is doing a fantastic job using an incredibly

:22:14.:22:18.

effective tool to keep us safe. Lord West has likened this incident to

:22:19.:22:22.

North Korea and the Soviet Union covering a missile tests that went

:22:23.:22:27.

wrong. I can see why they go wrong. I think the world's media should pay

:22:28.:22:33.

close attention. This has been highlighted because people are

:22:34.:22:36.

drawing together information in the public domain. But when that debate

:22:37.:22:40.

was going on, or was it right that this was not made clear? She made

:22:41.:22:50.

clear that this is the most sophisticated, efficient and

:22:51.:22:52.

reliable missile system that exists and it is the one we want to invest

:22:53.:22:57.

in. We have talked about the fact that Theresa May should or shouldn't

:22:58.:23:01.

have been clearer at the time but in terms of the effectiveness of the

:23:02.:23:05.

system, listening to both Dr Julian Lewis and Anne-Marie Trevelyan, are

:23:06.:23:11.

you in any doubt that it is an ineffective system, even though you

:23:12.:23:15.

don't support it? Is there any doubt in your mind that it is not

:23:16.:23:19.

effective? For me the main concern is that there was a serious

:23:20.:23:23.

function. We needed to know about it in Parliament. You cannot tell MPs

:23:24.:23:26.

to make a decision on such a serious topic without giving us the full

:23:27.:23:30.

facts. The Prime Minister covered it up and the former Prime Minister

:23:31.:23:33.

covered it up and we need an inquiry. That is a problem for the

:23:34.:23:43.

government because it does in the end allow MPs, quite rightly, like

:23:44.:23:45.

Tulip Siddiq and her colleagues who are against Trident, it causes them

:23:46.:23:48.

to doubt the honesty of the government. We must disentangle the

:23:49.:23:52.

strategic issue. If the submarines went to see with only one missile,

:23:53.:23:57.

the failure of one out of 162 would be a serious problem. In strategic

:23:58.:24:03.

terms this means very little, if anything. In terms of political

:24:04.:24:08.

straightforwardness, then it does raise an issue. Depending on what is

:24:09.:24:11.

said in the House of Commons this afternoon, maybe the defence

:24:12.:24:14.

committee as soon as tomorrow might be able to call some people before

:24:15.:24:19.

it. We will have to wait and see whether the government finally comes

:24:20.:24:22.

clean on this unnecessary row. Right. An urgent question has been

:24:23.:24:27.

asked for and has been confirmed. I don't know who will be coming back

:24:28.:24:30.

to the House of Commons to answer that question but it is going to

:24:31.:24:35.

happen at 3:30pm today, which is unsurprising. World that satisfy

:24:36.:24:41.

you? I will have to listen and see. If ministers are coming back, what

:24:42.:24:46.

would you like to hear to put this to rest? I would like to hear a

:24:47.:24:49.

straightforward timeline of when this matter was reported to the

:24:50.:24:54.

previous Prime Minister. What was decided then about covering it up.

:24:55.:24:59.

And when the present Prime Minister learned about it and for what reason

:25:00.:25:05.

she decided not to mention it in the immediate run-up to the debate. As I

:25:06.:25:09.

say, I don't think it would have made a scrap of difference to the

:25:10.:25:13.

outcome of the debate, with the stunningly large majority quite

:25:14.:25:15.

rightly in favour of keeping our nuclear weapons as long as other

:25:16.:25:20.

countries can threaten us with theirs. Thank you for coming in.

:25:21.:25:24.

For some time, we've been hearing about the increasing

:25:25.:25:26.

problems of air pollution, particularly in towns and cities,

:25:27.:25:28.

with some reports suggesting it could contribute to thousands

:25:29.:25:30.

According to the motoring journalist Quentin Wilson,

:25:31.:25:34.

one solution is to get more of us to buy electric cars,

:25:35.:25:37.

but he argues the government isn't doing nearly enough

:25:38.:25:39.

# Let's take a ride in an electric car #.

:25:40.:25:52.

Is it really happening or just another revolution that

:25:53.:25:57.

Will mainstream drivers ever buy into the electric dream?

:25:58.:26:04.

As an electric car driver, I would say the electric car

:26:05.:26:06.

revolution is coming because I'm biased.

:26:07.:26:10.

But the fact remains, we have 90,000 plug-in cars

:26:11.:26:12.

Car-makers are making more and more of them,

:26:13.:26:16.

And we have more charging points, too, nearly 12,000 in total.

:26:17.:26:21.

But some of those chargers could be a problem.

:26:22.:26:27.

This one only costs ?2 per hour but some cost ?7.50

:26:28.:26:30.

Do the maths, and it could be cheaper to drive a 50 miles

:26:31.:26:37.

But take away the incentive of lower costs, and you won't change

:26:38.:26:41.

Plus the charging network is complicated.

:26:42.:26:46.

Sometimes you need more than two cards to access

:26:47.:26:48.

And the pricing combinations are impenetrable.

:26:49.:26:53.

I counted 80 different pricing structures before

:26:54.:26:54.

And that's not helping the wider take-up of low emission

:26:55.:27:00.

cars and critically not helping improve

:27:01.:27:02.

But rapid chargers that top you up to 80% charge in 30 minutes cost up

:27:03.:27:11.

to ?40,000 to install, so companies need a return

:27:12.:27:13.

The trouble is, a kilowatt hour at home, where 90% of electric car

:27:14.:27:18.

drivers charge their cars, costs about 12p.

:27:19.:27:22.

So paying ?7.50 for just half an hour does sound

:27:23.:27:24.

like overcharging, if you'll pardon the pun.

:27:25.:27:29.

I want the government to treat the public charging network

:27:30.:27:33.

as a national asset, particularly those rapid chargers

:27:34.:27:35.

I also want them to cap electricity prices for electric cars and help

:27:36.:27:43.

Because here's the thing, if we don't make it easy

:27:44.:27:47.

for consumers to buy into the electric car revolution,

:27:48.:27:51.

it just won't happen and they'll just carry on buying diesels

:27:52.:27:54.

Expensive electricity will slow the electric car revolution down,

:27:55.:28:06.

and electric mobility is the next big thing.

:28:07.:28:12.

It's a big cycle of change, like televisions, washing machines,

:28:13.:28:14.

This isn't a liberal, left-wing environmental rant.

:28:15.:28:21.

It's simply a heartfelt plea to help clean up the air we breathe,

:28:22.:28:24.

and electric cars can help us do that.

:28:25.:28:30.

Before I come to you, I am going to come to you, Anne-Marie Trevelyan.

:28:31.:28:42.

Air pollution is contributing to 40,000 early deaths per year in the

:28:43.:28:47.

UK according to the Royal College of Physicians. Why isn't the government

:28:48.:28:52.

doing much more to get cleaner cars out there? I think there has been a

:28:53.:28:56.

real shift change in perspective in terms of appreciating the importance

:28:57.:29:04.

obviously for Tulip, who has a London constituency, where the

:29:05.:29:07.

issues are more pressing, compared to rural Northumberland, my

:29:08.:29:09.

constituency, where it is less important. You don't suffer from it

:29:10.:29:18.

at all? The comparative differences are fascinating. But the reality is

:29:19.:29:22.

that we need technology that works across the nation because we all

:29:23.:29:25.

move across the nation. It was very interesting to see Quentin's piece.

:29:26.:29:30.

The critical challenge for oral residences having a system that

:29:31.:29:34.

works where you can get to where you want to go and then get home after

:29:35.:29:41.

plugging in. -- aural areas. We have the highest levels of pollution ever

:29:42.:29:45.

recorded but if we are going to have this joint of strategy we have got

:29:46.:29:49.

to push hard for it now. I want as many charges as possible along the

:29:50.:29:54.

motorway network and in constituencies like yours because

:29:55.:29:56.

these barriers to entry are connected to the haversack of

:29:57.:29:59.

prejudices people have about electric cars and they the one thing

:30:00.:30:02.

that could really low traffic pollution in the UK so we have got

:30:03.:30:07.

to get behind it. To be fair, I saw the Secretary of State for Transport

:30:08.:30:13.

behind this and he is 100% behind this so push, push, push.

:30:14.:30:17.

Would you like to see subsidies for this? I would, 10,000 people die in

:30:18.:30:25.

London because of air pollution in one year. The take-up of electric

:30:26.:30:31.

cars has gone up by 30% of nasty as people are starting to buy them.

:30:32.:30:34.

Before we came on air, someone mentioned about charging points.

:30:35.:30:37.

There are not enough and the former mayor of London, Boris Johnson, said

:30:38.:30:41.

he would have 25,000 charging points before he left office and there are

:30:42.:30:45.

1000 now. I think we need to make sure we increase that as well. Do

:30:46.:30:49.

you agree with that and should it be paid for in the form of further

:30:50.:30:54.

subsidy from the government? I think we need to find... Getting the

:30:55.:30:56.

infrastructure in place is a key one. Nissan's electric car was

:30:57.:31:01.

oxidised when it first came through to the tune of ?5,000 per car to

:31:02.:31:06.

help because the reality is, on a household budget, if you can buy a

:31:07.:31:11.

?12,000 car, and you have to do find ?25,000 to buy an electric one, it

:31:12.:31:16.

is still a challenge. And a second-hand Nissan Leave can cost as

:31:17.:31:19.

little as ?5,000. It will pay for itself in two years. The messages

:31:20.:31:27.

need to go through to the public. Does that mean people don't want

:31:28.:31:30.

them because there are grants, as you say, you can get thousands of

:31:31.:31:33.

pounds. You can get all the other ?500 for anyone but there's

:31:34.:31:35.

inherited prejudice, what I call the Clarkson effect which hangs around

:31:36.:31:38.

like a bad smell, that people don't like electric cars because they are

:31:39.:31:43.

slow. It is nonsense. It is a total myth. We have 90,000 on the roads

:31:44.:31:47.

now and some very happy people out there driving them very

:31:48.:31:50.

successfully. I have been driving one for five years. In the UK, we

:31:51.:31:55.

need to be the centre of this, a driving force, creating jobs and

:31:56.:31:58.

employment, improving the air quality. We have talked about the

:31:59.:32:02.

charging points because that is an anxiety for people. It would be

:32:03.:32:05.

mine, not being able to get to a charging point or getting there and

:32:06.:32:14.

they are full. Also, charging at home when you are recharging, don't

:32:15.:32:16.

you then need some kind of off-street parking or a Garrahalish?

:32:17.:32:19.

That would be very easy if you're in a road like mine when you can't

:32:20.:32:23.

park. You can ask the council to have a plug in point in the lamp

:32:24.:32:27.

post that you can use. We need to think about this. If you have on

:32:28.:32:30.

street parking, it's a challenge but 30% of motorists out they have two

:32:31.:32:33.

cars and one of them could be electric. That is the starting

:32:34.:32:38.

point. Would you get one? If I could drive very well, I would, but I

:32:39.:32:44.

can't! OK, moving on. Are you? Richard Cribb we are looking at

:32:45.:32:47.

getting one won my very old diesel eventually dies. She is getting

:32:48.:32:51.

quite close to it now. Then we are seriously looking at it but the

:32:52.:32:55.

challenges, we live 30 miles for anywhere so we can charge it up but

:32:56.:32:59.

how far will it get us? More than 30 miles! It is the reassurance, it is

:33:00.:33:08.

the mum in me... You can do it, trust me. How green are there

:33:09.:33:11.

because we talked about the high levels of air pollution and the

:33:12.:33:17.

extra deaths but how good are electric cars for that? It is all

:33:18.:33:20.

about the quality, yes, you have make the batteries, yes, coal-fired

:33:21.:33:24.

power stations pollute but on Christmas Day, 41% of energy in the

:33:25.:33:29.

UK came from renewables and this is rising as well. Renewables are

:33:30.:33:31.

coming. So rather than obsessing about moving pollution to another

:33:32.:33:36.

place, let's think about the particulates and pollution around

:33:37.:33:39.

cities and children on our streets at pedestrian level. That is the

:33:40.:33:43.

goal we have to achieve. Would Labour make electric cars a

:33:44.:33:48.

priority? Should they? I think they should because I looked at the

:33:49.:33:51.

climate change committee's report to Parliament that says the country is

:33:52.:33:55.

in danger of failing the legal climate targets by 47% in 2030. If

:33:56.:34:00.

we are on a trend like that, I think we should do everything we can to

:34:01.:34:03.

make our country more environmentally friendly and reach

:34:04.:34:06.

those legal targets. I would certainly push Labour to make

:34:07.:34:11.

electric cars a priority. Otherwise what will we do to tackle levels of

:34:12.:34:15.

air pollution in cities? I take the point it is not your constituency

:34:16.:34:19.

but even so. This is a key part of policy and it is pleasing to hear, I

:34:20.:34:22.

know Chris Grayling has talked about it before but it is a commitment he

:34:23.:34:26.

wants to sleep and it's a matter of infrastructure from the government's

:34:27.:34:30.

point of view. It's not about environmentalism, as the film said,

:34:31.:34:33.

it is about the air we breathe and the biggest challenge to public

:34:34.:34:40.

health at the moment is a pollution. Are you confident the government

:34:41.:34:43.

will move enough on this to make a difference? I am behind the Fair Few

:34:44.:34:45.

Campaign and we have done successfully and I'm pushing for

:34:46.:34:49.

fairer fuel for electricity as well. How much will it cost? Last autumn,

:34:50.:34:55.

the government announced a ?35 million package to boost the uptake

:34:56.:34:59.

of ultralow emission cars. It's not enough. How much is necessary? Of

:35:00.:35:04.

the top of my head, I don't know but I need political will and a real

:35:05.:35:07.

resolve, to help convince the general public with test drives at

:35:08.:35:10.

shopping centres or whatever, that the cars work and that they are

:35:11.:35:14.

affordable now. The data that is coming through is that the batteries

:35:15.:35:17.

don't degrade. They last for ten years. They are reliable. You can

:35:18.:35:27.

buy them cheaply and they cost less to service, all these positive

:35:28.:35:29.

messages which are not getting through. I can't give you a figure

:35:30.:35:32.

but whatever it is, it is much less than the cost we are paying in the

:35:33.:35:35.

NHS to help all these people with respiratory diseases. It is a

:35:36.:35:38.

raindrop echoing in an ocean. I will let you go back to the car which is

:35:39.:35:39.

no doubt parked outside. It's a busy day here

:35:40.:35:41.

in Westminster and it looks set So what else is in store

:35:42.:35:44.

for the week ahead? Tomorrow morning, the Supreme Court

:35:45.:35:48.

gives its verdict on whether the ruling that ministers must

:35:49.:35:52.

consult Parliament before triggering If it loses its appeal,

:35:53.:35:54.

the government is expected to produce a Bill to go

:35:55.:35:57.

through Parliament very quickly. It's a subject that's likely

:35:58.:36:00.

to come up on Wednesday, when MPs get to grill

:36:01.:36:02.

Theresa May at PMQs. Also on Wednesday, it's the last

:36:03.:36:06.

sitting in Northern Ireland's Stormont Assembly before fresh

:36:07.:36:09.

elections at the beginning of March. On Thursday, we'll get to see

:36:10.:36:16.

if the good economic news continues with the latest set of GDP figures

:36:17.:36:19.

released, and then Theresa May gets to be at the head of

:36:20.:36:25.

the queue on Friday, when she becomes

:36:26.:36:34.

the first foreign leader to meet We're joined now by Lucy Fisher

:36:35.:36:36.

from The Times and David Maddox Welcome to both of you. Lucy, the

:36:37.:36:47.

front of the queue for Theresa May, no doubt what number ten will say.

:36:48.:36:51.

Will the Prime Minister hold fire on Donald Trump's unacceptable

:36:52.:36:54.

comments, and she said they were, regarding women, so as not to

:36:55.:36:58.

imperil any free-trade deal with the US? Well, she certainly was pretty

:36:59.:37:03.

stored on the Andrew Marr show yesterday, saying she would stand up

:37:04.:37:06.

and not stand for anything an acceptable but in a way, she really

:37:07.:37:09.

needs this trade deal already some mood music from the US trip this

:37:10.:37:14.

week, not least because it could offer some leveraged with Brussels

:37:15.:37:18.

so she can say along the lines of, the US and the UK have a deal

:37:19.:37:23.

pencilled in with their tariffs. That could help Brexit terms. David,

:37:24.:37:29.

is the fact she is a female Prime Minister a big enough statement, do

:37:30.:37:33.

you think, in terms of furthering the issues, the causes she supports

:37:34.:37:36.

of equality when she meets Donald Trump? I think it is. The fact that

:37:37.:37:42.

she is one of the most important female politicians in the world

:37:43.:37:46.

certainly makes a huge statement. Actually, you know, for all the

:37:47.:37:50.

criticism of Donald Trump, she will be the first world leader he has

:37:51.:37:56.

invited. That is great for us. Certainly a change from the

:37:57.:38:02.

Democratic policy. It looks good. Let's talk about the Supreme Court's

:38:03.:38:05.

long-awaited decision which will be announced tomorrow. It is likely,

:38:06.:38:09.

one might say, to say that Parliament will get a vote. When do

:38:10.:38:14.

you think the Bill will be presented? The government has

:38:15.:38:16.

cleared the legislation scheduled next week so it is expected to be

:38:17.:38:20.

presented then. As far as we know, it will be a short Bill to allow

:38:21.:38:24.

Labour little chance to amend it. There's been a lot of confusion over

:38:25.:38:28.

what Labour will try to do. It seemed last week there would be a

:38:29.:38:36.

three line whip ordering MPs to support Article 50, respect the

:38:37.:38:39.

result of the referendum. That seems to be a bit weaker now. Jeremy

:38:40.:38:41.

Corbyn said over the weekend he would ask MPs to support it. I'm

:38:42.:38:44.

hearing that between 60 and 80 Labour MPs are set to vote against

:38:45.:38:47.

but essentially, this will be a footnote in history books. The Bill

:38:48.:38:51.

will pass, Kenneth Clarke is the only conservative who will vote to

:38:52.:38:55.

block Article 50 in the Commons. Before it becomes a footnote, let's

:38:56.:38:58.

dwell on it a bit longer in terms of what Labour might or might do in

:38:59.:39:02.

terms of whipping the vote. It is for Labour MPs because the majority

:39:03.:39:09.

wanted to remain. Many of them have Remain constituencies but many

:39:10.:39:14.

Remain voting Labour MPs also have Leave constituencies. What do you

:39:15.:39:17.

think they will do and Jeremy Corbyn will do when Article 50 comes before

:39:18.:39:22.

Parliament? It is difficult for him. In a way, I don't think it really

:39:23.:39:28.

makes much difference because the hardline Remain as will vote against

:39:29.:39:33.

Article 50, come what may. The more realistic ones will vote to allow it

:39:34.:39:39.

through. I think the real problems could come with other parties. I

:39:40.:39:44.

think the SNP are intending to put down a lot of amendments, even if it

:39:45.:39:48.

is only a four line Bill and then it gets into the Lords. I'm not sure if

:39:49.:39:53.

it is as predictable as people think. What about the single market,

:39:54.:39:59.

Lucy? What, in your mind, is Labour's position on the single

:40:00.:40:04.

market? It is very unclear. Over the weekend, Jeremy Corbyn has been

:40:05.:40:07.

talking about market access but it's unclear if that means membership.

:40:08.:40:11.

There's been a lot of toing and froing. I think there is still some

:40:12.:40:16.

confusion. Essentially, my understanding is there have been

:40:17.:40:19.

some Labour insiders doing a lot of work, in some turret in Westminster,

:40:20.:40:24.

looking at what they could actually table as an amendment regarding the

:40:25.:40:27.

single market. We would likely have too paid to remain a member. That

:40:28.:40:31.

would be a spending commitment. This is not a Bill that has any related

:40:32.:40:35.

money so they would not be able to table an amendment, which is my

:40:36.:40:40.

understanding. How do you think this will all play out, David, in terms

:40:41.:40:43.

of the by-elections we now know are going to happen towards the end of

:40:44.:40:50.

February, in Stoke-on-Trent and Copland? I think Labour are in a

:40:51.:40:53.

very dangerous position. If they come out too strongly for Remain,

:40:54.:40:56.

trying to stay in the single market is a very easy way for Ukip, in

:40:57.:41:01.

particular in Stoke, to say, actually, they want to ignore the

:41:02.:41:04.

referendum. I think they are in trouble in the by-elections anyway.

:41:05.:41:08.

I don't see them winning in Copland. It looks like the Tories will win

:41:09.:41:11.

that. It looks like a 3-way contest in Stoke Central, which obviously,

:41:12.:41:16.

Paul Nuttall is going to make a big push for Ukip. Whatever Labour do, I

:41:17.:41:22.

think they are in trouble. OK. Thank you for joining us. Have a good

:41:23.:41:24.

week. Sticking with the subject of Brexit,

:41:25.:41:25.

the Welsh First Minister, Carwyn Jones, and the leader

:41:26.:41:28.

of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood, have this morning been outlining

:41:29.:41:30.

a joint Brexit plan for Wales. The parties, along with

:41:31.:41:35.

the Welsh Liberal Democrats, have said they want to have

:41:36.:41:37.

continued participation Last week, the Prime Minister said

:41:38.:41:39.

Britain should leave the single market as she outlined

:41:40.:41:44.

her vision for Brexit. I can't believe I nearly said

:41:45.:41:49.

breakfast! Mr Jones and Ms Wood have been

:41:50.:41:52.

holding a press conference Welcome to Carwyn Jones. Wales voted

:41:53.:42:01.

for Brexit, as you know, in fact buy a bigger margin than the UK as a

:42:02.:42:05.

whole. Aren't you barking up the wrong tree? So did England but does

:42:06.:42:09.

that mean England has no right to negotiate? We have to get the best

:42:10.:42:12.

deal for Wales and the other nations in the UK. For me, it is about

:42:13.:42:15.

having a common-sense approach to immigration and freedom of movement,

:42:16.:42:18.

to get a job. It's about making sure we access the single market. 67% of

:42:19.:42:27.

our exports go into the EU. What is the government proposing to mess

:42:28.:42:30.

around with it? We will have access to the single market. Will we? I

:42:31.:42:34.

hear those in favour of hard Brexit saying it will be fine and maybe but

:42:35.:42:38.

we need more detail. We have put forward a document today. You can

:42:39.:42:41.

agree with it or not but it is a lot further than the UK Government has

:42:42.:42:44.

gone so far in what it has been able to publish. For me, what is

:42:45.:42:48.

important is that our exporters can sell on the same terms in the big

:42:49.:42:54.

European market in the future as they can now. And why are you so

:42:55.:42:57.

worried they won't be able to do that outside the single market, if

:42:58.:42:59.

access is negotiated, which other countries have done? Bear in mind

:43:00.:43:02.

that a free-trade agreement takes its also need to negotiate. It

:43:03.:43:06.

cannot be done overnight. You are citing the case of Canada, of

:43:07.:43:11.

course. Every single one. And you think that will be the same here?

:43:12.:43:16.

Absolutely. You need ratification from at least 29 different bodies in

:43:17.:43:20.

the EU itself, and in the UK, we are a union of four nations. There is a

:43:21.:43:25.

very complicated process to go through. For me, what is important

:43:26.:43:32.

is if we don't fight the -- is we don't fight the referendum, because

:43:33.:43:34.

it is done. It is finished, forget about it. It is a question of how.

:43:35.:43:37.

How do we leave in the most beneficial way possible to Wales and

:43:38.:43:41.

the other nations? It sounds like you are accepting leaving and then

:43:42.:43:44.

you want to sneak back in? Reds know, from my point of view, we are

:43:45.:43:49.

leaving the EU but how? Lots of people, like Daniel Hannan,

:43:50.:43:52.

Eurosceptics, said the Norwegian model was one we could look at. Now

:43:53.:43:55.

they are saying we don't blog about. But the Norwegian model looks pretty

:43:56.:43:59.

well, they have access to the single market, they are not in the EU. But

:44:00.:44:05.

they are in the single market and as a result, have to sign up the four

:44:06.:44:10.

freedoms. And the four freedoms include, as you know, freedom of

:44:11.:44:13.

movement of people, which the government has said they felt was

:44:14.:44:19.

the message in the vote. If you take the Norwegian model, you also have

:44:20.:44:23.

to sign up to the European Court of Justice, certainly an equivalent, in

:44:24.:44:27.

terms of a court who will oversee any disputes. So we won't have left.

:44:28.:44:32.

It is the same for free trade agreement, there has to be an

:44:33.:44:35.

independent body to resolve disputes. That is normal, in every

:44:36.:44:38.

agreement that the UK has a free-trade agreement or not, that

:44:39.:44:42.

will be the case in the future. Do you accept Norway has two sign up to

:44:43.:44:47.

free movement of people? Not in the way the UK has done, Norway has said

:44:48.:44:50.

you have freedom of movement if you have a job. On top of that, if you

:44:51.:44:54.

lose your job, you have three months to find another one or you have to

:44:55.:44:58.

leave. I think that's a rational, common-sense way of dealing with

:44:59.:45:01.

people's concerns but in a way, it makes it easy for us to recruit the

:45:02.:45:04.

doctors and nurses we need from other countries without interfering

:45:05.:45:09.

with our ability to do that. An agreement to work, what is wrong

:45:10.:45:13.

with that. Except that is not quite true because the agreement on the

:45:14.:45:17.

European economic area brings together the EU state and the three

:45:18.:45:22.

state, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway, in a single market, referred

:45:23.:45:26.

to as the internal market. That covers the four freedoms entirely.

:45:27.:45:31.

The free movement of goods, services, persons and capital, as if

:45:32.:45:34.

you were a member of the European Union, which is exactly what the UK

:45:35.:45:40.

is signed up to now, as is Norway. I was there a fortnight ago and listen

:45:41.:45:44.

to what they were saying to me. Which bit of it does it say, only

:45:45.:45:48.

for Norway, in terms of free movement of people, do you have do

:45:49.:45:52.

have a job? The rules actually say it is freedom of movement to work.

:45:53.:45:56.

The UK over the years was very liberal in the way it approached

:45:57.:45:59.

that. The rules say freedom of movement to get a job. There are

:46:00.:46:06.

some caveats but it is not a general freedom of movement. It is the way

:46:07.:46:09.

the UK chose to interpret that in the last few years. If we do as

:46:10.:46:12.

Norway is doing, I think that is a perfectly sensible way of dealing

:46:13.:46:15.

with people's fears. Lots of people felt their wages were not

:46:16.:46:18.

increasing. From my perspective, there's lots of reasons to that like

:46:19.:46:20.

austerity. You would still contribute to the

:46:21.:46:30.

EU, like Norway, and you would still sign up to a court, and the

:46:31.:46:34.

government has indicated it would want to bring laws back to the UK to

:46:35.:46:38.

decide, so in a sense we would not have left the EU. But we cannot have

:46:39.:46:43.

a free trade agreement with the EU without a court, Tribunal, that

:46:44.:46:48.

would arbitrate. Yes, but it would be a court of the UK Government's

:46:49.:46:52.

choosing. The laws would be made here. It is by agreement, not by the

:46:53.:46:57.

UK Government choosing. If you sign up to a free-trade agreement, you

:46:58.:47:05.

have got to agree a form of arbitration that will resolve

:47:06.:47:07.

disputes. There is no getting away from that. It is part of a

:47:08.:47:09.

free-trade agreement. But what will be so different? Norway is part of

:47:10.:47:17.

the internal model and single market. We can argue about whether

:47:18.:47:21.

the UK took a broader or more general line in terms of people

:47:22.:47:26.

coming for a job. It pays into the annual covers of the EU and it has

:47:27.:47:30.

no say over its rules. Is that what you are suggesting for the UK? UK

:47:31.:47:34.

Government will not have any say over the rules of the EU. But then

:47:35.:47:38.

you could say it is outside the single market. The question for me

:47:39.:47:43.

is this. And we accept that market on the same terms as now? It is our

:47:44.:47:48.

biggest export market by far. Can our farmers sell their lamb on the

:47:49.:47:51.

European market without it being more expensive? Our unemployment is

:47:52.:47:56.

lower than in Scotland, England and Northern Ireland. That surprised me

:47:57.:48:00.

but it is true. We have done that mainly on the basis of companies

:48:01.:48:04.

coming to Wales to access that market. Britain is too small market.

:48:05.:48:09.

Any barrier is bad for us. It doesn't have to be that way. We can

:48:10.:48:16.

give respect to the people who voted. But we have got to get away

:48:17.:48:22.

from the idea that it will be fine in the end. They have got to put

:48:23.:48:26.

their backs into the idea and find a plan that will work. What do you

:48:27.:48:30.

think? I think it is right that Wales and Scotland should put

:48:31.:48:34.

forward what they think will work. Do you agree with it? There is an

:48:35.:48:38.

anxiety driving this that the idea is the doors were shut. But they do

:48:39.:48:44.

not want to be burdened with more bureaucracy and finding it more

:48:45.:48:46.

difficult to move their goods into our markets. I think there will be a

:48:47.:48:53.

very good trade arrangement that will be negotiated as a result. All

:48:54.:48:56.

those businesses want to sell their goods. It is not about nations. It

:48:57.:49:01.

is businesses and people buying and selling goods. We all know the

:49:02.:49:05.

framework they need a lower bureaucracy and no tariff framework

:49:06.:49:08.

hopefully. That is what all parties will work towards achieving

:49:09.:49:12.

otherwise somebody will suffer and nobody wants that. I agree about the

:49:13.:49:17.

access, that is crucial. But we are at the edge of a cliff. It is a

:49:18.:49:21.

worry. That is what the negotiations are about and the government has

:49:22.:49:25.

implied a transitional arrangement. What are you fearful of? Tariffs.

:49:26.:49:31.

Tariffs imposed on goods between the UK and EU. We have the unresolved

:49:32.:49:35.

issue of the border. It will be opened. There will be no of

:49:36.:49:41.

immigration in reality. How do you deal with those issues? That is the

:49:42.:49:44.

important thing. It is a corrugated divorce and it cannot be done

:49:45.:49:51.

quickly. -- a complicated divorce. It needs to be done, nobody disputes

:49:52.:49:55.

that. But it is about still attracting jobs to Wales and selling

:49:56.:50:00.

on the same terms to Europe. Do you agree with Carwyn Jones or Keir

:50:01.:50:04.

Starmer? There doesn't seem to be a clear view from Labour about what

:50:05.:50:08.

they want to do in terms of the single market? I think the clear

:50:09.:50:11.

view from the Labour Party generally and from Carwyn Jones is that we

:50:12.:50:15.

need to make sure we protect our local economies and make sure we

:50:16.:50:18.

still have access to the single market regardless of leaving. My

:50:19.:50:21.

problem with this whole thing is this is the first time I have

:50:22.:50:24.

utterly heard a Conservative MP outlined that we will have a proper

:50:25.:50:29.

trade agreement. I have heard nothing from the Prime Minister. I

:50:30.:50:32.

have heard a speech in which she said she will leave the single

:50:33.:50:37.

market even though believe campaign said we wouldn't leave. They didn't

:50:38.:50:44.

actually. We have played time and again Boris Johnson and Michael Gove

:50:45.:50:48.

saying that we would definitely be leaving the single market, and so

:50:49.:50:54.

did the Remainers. And we have seen others ensuring everyone we would

:50:55.:50:58.

not leave the single market. I have seen that over and over again. You

:50:59.:51:01.

believed Daniel Hannan more than the Prime Minister at the time? I didn't

:51:02.:51:06.

believe any of the Leave campaign, especially on the extra money.

:51:07.:51:14.

Putting money into the NHS. But George Osborne and David Cameron

:51:15.:51:18.

said repeatedly that would happen. My point is it was shrouded in

:51:19.:51:22.

secrecy, the agreements that have been made. I for one want to see

:51:23.:51:25.

what the Prime Minister put before Parliament. We will be putting

:51:26.:51:30.

forward amendments and safeguarding rights. Will you vote against

:51:31.:51:34.

Article 50 being triggered? I will vote according to what is put in

:51:35.:51:38.

front of me. At this point I'm completely in the dark and I have no

:51:39.:51:41.

idea what she is putting forward and I want to see the amendments as

:51:42.:51:46.

well. What is Labour's position? We have had Keir Starmer and penny

:51:47.:51:49.

Chapman in the Brexit team saying they want an end to free movement.

:51:50.:51:53.

Diane Abbott and Jeremy Corbyn have pretty well set the opposite. Does

:51:54.:51:57.

Labour believe in free movement continuing or does it want it to

:51:58.:52:11.

end? We want to have access and free movement but... You do want free

:52:12.:52:13.

movement? Well, I certainly do. I want to see what is put forward in

:52:14.:52:16.

terms of Parliament. Until we see a clear vision from the government,

:52:17.:52:19.

how can we put forward our opinions, amendments and safeguards? There are

:52:20.:52:21.

four things to protect. The trade agreements. We also have got to

:52:22.:52:26.

protect EU citizens living in the UK. Where is the protection for

:52:27.:52:31.

them? I see nothing for them. Do you agree with Jeremy Corbyn when it

:52:32.:52:35.

comes to freedom of movement? I have expressed my view and it is

:52:36.:52:38.

different to his but we are from the Welsh Labour Party. It is the same

:52:39.:52:43.

with the Conservatives. I am not saying it isn't. But that prevents a

:52:44.:52:48.

clear message being sent out. We have contributed to the debate today

:52:49.:52:51.

in terms of freedom of movement and what we think would be sensible.

:52:52.:52:55.

Let's have a debate on moving forward. What we have got to avoid

:52:56.:52:59.

is a situation where if we put forward something we are told we are

:53:00.:53:03.

trying to refight the referendum but we are not. Let's have other ideas

:53:04.:53:06.

coming forward rather than trying to re-fight something that happened

:53:07.:53:13.

last year. If we think freedom of movement to a job that somebody had

:53:14.:53:16.

last year is a bad idea, let's hear it. But we are past the point now

:53:17.:53:21.

when hard Brexiteers can say it will be fine. We need to get beat on the

:53:22.:53:33.

bones. Thank you. -- meat on the bones.

:53:34.:53:37.

Now let me be clear, the honest truth is this,

:53:38.:53:39.

believe me when I say that people are fed up with the way

:53:40.:53:43.

A new report argues that using phrases like "the fact is"

:53:44.:53:46.

and "I understand what you're saying but" makes people less likely

:53:47.:53:49.

The survey also found that, pay attention you two,

:53:50.:53:52.

people much preferred concise answers rather than

:53:53.:53:54.

Maybe we should have done this item at the start of the programme!

:53:55.:53:58.

We'll be discussing this in a very simple, clear way in a moment

:53:59.:54:01.

but first let's have a look at some of the worst offenders.

:54:02.:54:04.

The brutal, honest, bald, bold truth is...

:54:05.:54:29.

And believe you me, Madam Deputy Speaker...

:54:30.:54:53.

Believe me, you didn't join the Conservative Party where I grew

:54:54.:54:59.

up if you wanted to be a career politician.

:55:00.:55:09.

We're joined now by John Blakey, a speaking coach and author

:55:10.:55:12.

Believe me. Welcome to the programme. We will be lifting to

:55:13.:55:20.

make sure you don't use these phrases. Who are the biggest

:55:21.:55:24.

offenders in politics? One of my favourites is probably David

:55:25.:55:28.

Cameron. He was very let me be clear, let me be very clear and let

:55:29.:55:33.

me be absolutely clear. All in the same sentence? I think we remember

:55:34.:55:36.

that from the Brexit debate and unfortunately it was followed by

:55:37.:55:40.

impenetrable economic jargon. That is the problem with these

:55:41.:55:43.

statements. They are an immediate red flag and turn off for a lot of

:55:44.:55:51.

people because they tend to proceed exactly the opposite of what we have

:55:52.:55:54.

been told. Are you guilty? I probably am. I hate when people say

:55:55.:55:57.

with all due respect and they are scathing towards their opponent

:55:58.:56:01.

before they have started. We are probably guilty of this and I am

:56:02.:56:07.

surprised we didn't feature on that! You were cringing. Do you use any of

:56:08.:56:11.

those phrases? Let me be clear, to be honest, the honest truth is...

:56:12.:56:16.

They are not phrases that spring to mind when I speak but my mother

:56:17.:56:20.

taught me something when I was growing up which is never trust a

:56:21.:56:23.

man who says trust me. And that has lived with me always in my political

:56:24.:56:27.

career. The realisation that you are trying to persuade people is what we

:56:28.:56:32.

do, so believe me is understandable. You are trying to bring people with

:56:33.:56:35.

you, but if you are presenting a case, you hope your arguments will

:56:36.:56:40.

hold water anyway. Why do nearly all politicians seem to speak in this

:56:41.:56:45.

way? I think it is habit. If you spend your life in business, as I

:56:46.:56:48.

have done, you pick up certain habits of language, and if you spend

:56:49.:56:51.

your life in Westminster, you pick up certain habits of language. We

:56:52.:56:55.

are incessant imitators as human beings and we picked this up very

:56:56.:56:59.

quickly from the people around us, and we have got to work very hard to

:57:00.:57:04.

change these habits and created different or more trustworthy

:57:05.:57:08.

impression with a cynical voting audience. Which politicians get it

:57:09.:57:13.

right? I am hesitant to say this but Donald Trump in terms of his style.

:57:14.:57:21.

Controversial! If we ignore the political policies of Donald Trump,

:57:22.:57:26.

and think of phrases like America first, then America first is simple.

:57:27.:57:31.

It is short. It is emotive and it appeals to the cares and concerns of

:57:32.:57:37.

his followers. His style, the centricity of that, the spontaneity

:57:38.:57:41.

of it and the emotive words, it has a way of engaging a certain

:57:42.:57:46.

cross-section of the population. How do you break the habit of using

:57:47.:57:50.

these phrases? Presenters are probably guilty of using some of

:57:51.:57:55.

them as well. I think we do it to give ourselves a little bit more

:57:56.:57:58.

time sometimes to think about what we are going to say, a little

:57:59.:58:03.

breather. Is that the reason? I think we are buying time. But if you

:58:04.:58:07.

think about spontaneity, a lot of people want to see if spontaneity in

:58:08.:58:11.

communication. That might mean we have got to be prepared to make this

:58:12.:58:20.

mistake. I tell my CEO clients that before they were CEO, they were a

:58:21.:58:24.

human being, and human beings are imperfect and spontaneous and we

:58:25.:58:27.

need to do more of that. Now just before we go, the answer to the

:58:28.:58:32.

quiz. Which pastime has former Prime Minister David Cameron reportedly

:58:33.:58:37.

gone back to? Pheasant shooting, fox hunting, tiddlywinks or bridge?

:58:38.:58:41.

Quickly? Tiddlywinks, I hope because it is such a good game. It is that!

:58:42.:58:50.

It is pheasant shooting! -- it isn't! And apparently saying the

:58:51.:58:54.

names Boris and Michael before he shoots them makes him feel better!

:58:55.:58:58.

Thank you for being our guests of the day. I will be back at midday

:58:59.:59:01.

tomorrow with all the big stories and that Supreme Court ruling

:59:02.:59:02.

judgment.

:59:03.:59:05.

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